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View Full Version : Kissell Forced UD to Compete Again


Chris R
08-26-2008, 12:48 AM
See home page or here:

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?p=67505#post67505

IAFlyer
08-26-2008, 08:08 AM
Thanks for the article Chris. I think this puts it into perspective -- we are not where we want to be - especially with men's basketball, but we are WAY better off than when TK took over. It would be a breath of fresh air if even the naysayers could acknowledge that much.

moville
08-26-2008, 09:16 AM
Thanks Chris. Great insights. You're a good writer.

Bill McPeek
08-26-2008, 10:03 AM
Another fine job, Chris. Any chance of doing an interview with TK regarding his tenure at UD? I'm sure the questions you would ask would be the kind we all would be interested in.

tman
08-26-2008, 12:11 PM
Thanks for the article Chris. I think this puts it into perspective -- we are not where we want to be - especially with men's basketball, but we are WAY better off than when TK took over. It would be a breath of fresh air if even the naysayers could acknowledge that much.

It is what it is.
Good luck to him. I wish him well.

LOOK----You can try to spin this anyway you wanna--I was there--I know how it went down.

UD has played basketball for a hundred years--most of those years, very well. People knew who we were. We had a couple of down years. No one paniced. The coaching change was something everyone expected--it happened--we expected to be back and competitive in a couple of years----attendance was strong--interest high. Students didn't miss a moment. Dayton fans were named the greatest fans in college basketball by a national rag. Though we had never experienced anything like that, we expected a quick turnaround. We did just that.

17 years years later--- a few try to portray the Dayton program as one that did not exsist prior to the arrival of Ted . Some try to give the impression that No conference would have ever taken UD. (thats hogwash) That UD and its great support and tradition would have folded--Basketball would have ended--the Arena boarded up. Its as if the Dayton program had died for many many years before. --HOGWASH--

17 yearss later--people know very little about Dayton. We have never won a NCAA game and our pockets are MUCH MUCH lighter. The schedule has gone to he!!--The arena is a morgue and the students are either pi$$ed or don't care anymore.

It is without a doubt--the worst era for Dayton basketball. During no other 17 year period has UD basketball produced LESS--less with more--that is the slogan for this era.

LESS WITH MORE
Had someone told us that if we hire this guy ( the AD )we would have experienced the worst 17 years in the programs history, that -we would never again see a win in the NCAA's--theres no way the guy would have gotten the job. NO WAY.

Look--he's not a bad guy----but to distort the truth--to spin history--you should leave that up to the Democrats.

And the butt kissers cannot change history-they cannot fool me--why---cause I was there--and I know hogwash when I see it.

I am tman, and I approve this message--now lets move on.

Fudd
08-26-2008, 12:42 PM
Gosh, we just can't pull the wool over T-man's eyes. After all, he was there while the rest of us were being deceived.

as_4
08-26-2008, 12:49 PM
I didn't know that Ted also was the president of Red Scare and started spirit points which upset the students?

longtimefan
08-26-2008, 01:09 PM
It is what it is.
Good luck to him. I wish him well.

At least the first two lines of the post made sense.

UDBrian
08-26-2008, 01:56 PM
Tman, I do agree with your assessment of the productivity of men's basketball and actually wonder how anyone could disagree. UD hasn't won a tournament game in a very long time and to me that is how a program is measured.

I did see the arena more energetic last year and the students were into it until UD lost some games. The program needs a winner now there is no question but I believe there is enough talent (if point guard play is good) on this team to bring UD interest to a high point.

longtimefan
08-26-2008, 02:10 PM
Tman, I do agree with your assessment of the productivity of men's basketball and actually wonder how anyone could disagree. UD hasn't won a tournament game in a very long time and to me that is how a program is measured.


But he is blaming the entire drought on TK. Do you agree with that? Did TK make that phantom foul call on Mark Ashman in the Purdue game that probably cost us the game? Did TK miss the free throw that would have tied the game which resulted in the loose ball which resulted in the phantom call? Did TK make that terrible offensive interference call on Sean Finn that would have cut Tulsa's lead to one and changed the entire complexion of the game? Did TK miss all those free throws that cost us the DePaul game? Did TK injure CW and CL last year? Of course I agree we should have won an NCAA game since 1990, but you can't blame it all on TK. In another post he blames the UD administration for not funding the Athletic Department, so which is it?

tman
08-26-2008, 03:10 PM
(((((But he is blaming the entire drought on TK)))))

No I'm not--There is a record to consider. A 17 year record. I'm not blamming him for everything anymore than the posters here who want to credit him with everything such as spending a great deal of money on the other non revenue sports. How hard is that considering that was my money, your money, our money, the UD basketball supporters monnies.

My wife spends a great deal of money, she's not gifted.

Longtime---you want to have something to debate---here it is---name a worse 17 year period in UD basketball modern history.

I am tman, and I approve this message--

rollo
08-26-2008, 03:22 PM
JOB's 3rd and 4th seasons seemed like 18 years. Does that count?

The Chef
08-26-2008, 03:31 PM
Thanks Chris. Great insights. You're a good writer.

Hey Chris, I bet it's comments like this that makes writing that student loan check each month just a little bit easier.
:rimshot: :p ;)

Of course, I do second the comment. :clap:

UDBrian
08-26-2008, 03:32 PM
But he is blaming the entire drought on TK. Do you agree with that? Did TK make that phantom foul call on Mark Ashman in the Purdue game that probably cost us the game? Did TK miss the free throw that would have tied the game which resulted in the loose ball which resulted in the phantom call? Did TK make that terrible offensive interference call on Sean Finn that would have cut Tulsa's lead to one and changed the entire complexion of the game? Did TK miss all those free throws that cost us the DePaul game? Did TK injure CW and CL last year? Of course I agree we should have won an NCAA game since 1990, but you can't blame it all on TK. In another post he blames the UD administration for not funding the Athletic Department, so which is it?

No, I do not agree that everything is Ted's fault.

UDDoug
08-26-2008, 06:31 PM
It is what it is.
Had someone told us that if we hire this guy ( the AD )we would have experienced the worst 17 years in the programs history, that -we would never again see a win in the NCAA's--theres no way the guy would have gotten the job. NO WAY.

Probably true.

But I have zero confidence the results would differ if a different hire had been made. Absolutely none.

Athletics other than football were in a total shambles in the early 90s. For 18 years the men's basketball program was advancing in the NCAA approximately every 10 years or so and lsoing seasons were becoming something far from an occassional blip. The deteriorating program was on the verge of becoming one of the worst teams in the country. Several of the best players in the history of the program appeared in one NCAA tourney, some none at all.

Since 1998 the program has been in position to win and advance in the NCAA. The role of the failure to do so has very little to do with athletics adminstration or university administration, in my opinion. In fact, I think the performance of the marquee program over the past 17 years is only marginally worse than the performance of the program in the 17 years prior (excluding the end of O'Brien's destruction). I know, I was there.

You can argue whether or not the spending on other sports should have been undertaken. However, I think there is little doubt the resources devoted have largely achieved the objectives. That's not quite spending money for the sake of spending money. Personally, I believe the world of college athletics has changed and long-term success requires a broad based program. Apparently most athletic programs share that view as the number who have not increased spending on non-revenue sports are few and far between, and primarily at the lower levels of D1.

longtimefan
08-26-2008, 07:34 PM
Probably true.

But I have zero confidence the results would differ if a different hire had been made. Absolutely none.

Athletics other than football were in a total shambles in the early 90s. For 18 years the men's basketball program was advancing in the NCAA approximately every 10 years or so and lsoing seasons were becoming something far from an occassional blip. The deteriorating program was on the verge of becoming one of the worst teams in the country. Several of the best players in the history of the program appeared in one NCAA tourney, some none at all.

Since 1998 the program has been in position to win and advance in the NCAA. The role of the failure to do so has very little to do with athletics adminstration or university administration, in my opinion. In fact, I think the performance of the marquee program over the past 17 years is only marginally worse than the performance of the program in the 17 years prior (excluding the end of O'Brien's destruction). I know, I was there.

You can argue whether or not the spending on other sports should have been undertaken. However, I think there is little doubt the resources devoted have largely achieved the objectives. That's not quite spending money for the sake of spending money. Personally, I believe the world of college athletics has changed and long-term success requires a broad based program. Apparently most athletic programs share that view as the number who have not increased spending on non-revenue sports are few and far between, and primarily at the lower levels of D1.

Great post, Doug!

Chris R
08-26-2008, 11:41 PM
Hey Chris, I bet it's comments like this that makes writing that student loan check each month just a little bit easier.
:rimshot: :p ;)

Of course, I do second the comment. :clap:

paid em off as of 2007! :rr:

Avid Flyer
08-27-2008, 10:31 AM
tman: LOOK----You can try to spin this anyway you wanna--I was there--I know how it went down.

You were where and know how what went down? Are you trying to take credit for TK's retirement?


tman: Look--he's not a bad guy----but to distort the truth--to spin history--you should leave that up to the Democrats.

Please leave politics out of UDPRIDE posts. don't care to know anyone's views on religion, race, gender or politics. This is a sports message board. There are plenty of other message boards for that.

tman: And the butt kissers cannot change history-they cannot fool me--why---cause I was there--and I know hogwash when I see it.

Obviously, you've done a good job of that yourself, no help needed from anyone else.

tman
08-27-2008, 10:58 AM
tman: [I]

Please leave politics out of UDPRIDE posts. don't care to know anyone's views on religion, race, gender or politics. This is a sports message board. There are plenty of other message boards for that.



LOL
Thanks for reminding me its a SPORTS message board Avid--May I remind you of this post you wrote a few days ago--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote Avid

In April 2008 my minivan was stolen from a hotel in Farmers Branch Texas with all my credit info inside the vehicle which necessitates closing all accounts and starting over.

BUT that is not the issue I want to address here. Please take a moment and review your auto insurance coverage. Was shocked to learn that the company I was with only insured my vehicle while it was within the state bounderies. This of course was not good for someone who travels a great deal.

The Insurance Commissioner revealed to me a little know fact. In some states there are sub standard insurance companies that offer lower premiums but coverage is limited to the state where it is issued. Never heard of such a thing and now am taking the agency and company to court for "errors and ommissions".

So cheaper is not always better. Have been pulled over in Oklahoma for a headlight out and gave the officer my license, registration and insurance. He ran it and all checked out so not even an officer in another state was able to tell that I was driving uninsured in his state.

I am probably the only idiot who had this experience but thought I'd share it just in case you thought you had a good rate only to find that the coverage is very limited.

Good news is the van was recovered last week in Garland Texas with about 3500 in damages.
END QUOTE
__________________________________________________ _______________________
This is a sports message board---really? And your telling me.LOL

Avid Flyer
08-27-2008, 11:03 AM
And you obviously missed the OT: at the start of the message. It wasn't politics, religion, race or gender related but was a heads up on an issue that could and did according to my pm/emails affect others. Was amazing couple others had found the same to be true on their policies. Put that under public service. One is a heads up notice to fellow posters while your's was an unwanted and unsolicited opinion about politics. Don't expect you to see the difference.

LOL
Thanks for reminding me its a SPORTS message board Avid--May I remind you of this post you wrote a few days ago--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote Avid

In April 2008 my minivan was stolen from a hotel in Farmers Branch Texas with all my credit info inside the vehicle which necessitates closing all accounts and starting over.

BUT that is not the issue I want to address here. Please take a moment and review your auto insurance coverage. Was shocked to learn that the company I was with only insured my vehicle while it was within the state bounderies. This of course was not good for someone who travels a great deal.

The Insurance Commissioner revealed to me a little know fact. In some states there are sub standard insurance companies that offer lower premiums but coverage is limited to the state where it is issued. Never heard of such a thing and now am taking the agency and company to court for "errors and ommissions".

So cheaper is not always better. Have been pulled over in Oklahoma for a headlight out and gave the officer my license, registration and insurance. He ran it and all checked out so not even an officer in another state was able to tell that I was driving uninsured in his state.

I am probably the only idiot who had this experience but thought I'd share it just in case you thought you had a good rate only to find that the coverage is very limited.

Good news is the van was recovered last week in Garland Texas with about 3500 in damages.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
This is a sports message board---really? And your telling me.LOL

John C.
08-27-2008, 01:13 PM
Just a thought.

Let's start tman.com and let tman put all of his thoughts there. I'd love to see the number of visits to that site.

This is not a personal attack just a thought.

IAFlyer
08-27-2008, 01:50 PM
Let me see if I have a summary of this thread so far:

Some (including the original article) think TK did very well in a few areas:

1) Hiring OP (this is different than firing JOB, in case there is confusion)
2) Vastly improving facilities
3) Vastly improving other sports so that we look like a D-1 school

At the same time, there seems to be agreement that the men's b-ball program has NOT had the success that UD fans should expect after 17 years. I don't know that anyone on this thread disagrees with that.

Then there are those that believe the hiring of OP was irrelevant and that improving our facilities and other sports meaningless because of not meeting the expectations of men's b-ball.

Here are my questions to all:

1) Are we better off than we were 17 years ago?

2) Are we where we want to be?

3) What has to change to get where we want to be?

My Answers

1) Of course we are
2) Not with respect to men's b-ball. The trend line is going up after the drop from BG's first year, but not fast enough for my tastes
3) We have to get to the NCAA and win games in the tournament. I believe this cures many ills (including scheduling).

Avid Flyer
08-27-2008, 02:16 PM
Agreed IAFlyer. The only area that we have not met expectations is mens basketball. In all other areas we have met and/or exceeded what it will take to have a complete D1 program.

Only missing ingredient is mens bball. We are on the rise in talent and are on the verge of getting over the hump. Last year could have been it but fell short do to the injuries and illinesses. This team has the right (Wright) stuff and may make it over the hump sooner than some feel it will take. What it will take:

1. continue winning the ooc games like we did last year.

2. keep everyone healty

3. no meltdown in the A-10

4. Finish strong last ten games

5. make it to final in A-10 tourney if not win it.

6. AND, drum roll please.....win a freaking game in the NCAA.

UD was the team to beat for 7 years in womens A-10 soccer and from the looks of their opening perfromance against # 26 Indiana they could be again.

UD IS the marquee team in A-10 vball and the team to beat, despite the Bilikins being ranked to win the A-10. When the A-10 voted X coach of the year and didn't put Erin and a few others on the A-10 all conference team then it becomes clear something is wrong with the A-10 vball perspective. TH was regional coach of the year but didn't make the A-10 coach of the year. Some serious jealousy among the A-10 coaches. But thats okay cause we will take the national respect any day over the A-10 disrespect.

All other UD sports have risin, now its time for the mens bball to take flight.

The Gem
08-27-2008, 04:31 PM
I tried to look on daytonflyers.com for the team's all time records. There used to be a PDF file you could look at that had all that stuff but I couldn't find it. I was going to try to use it to prove a point about how The Flyers did in the 17 years prior to TK's arrival.
I think he got here in 1992 so I was going to throw out the JOB era and look at the period from 1972 to 1989. So I will just go from memory. Feel free to correct me.

I know we had a good team in 73-74 although I am a little too young to remember it. Then there was a steady slide toward mediocrity. We had an elite eight run in 84 and lost in the first round in 85. I know there was a couple of NIT appearances in there, but I don't recall what years or how many. I went to school at UD from 85 to 89 and there was not much to chear about then. The point I want to make is that the bball team hasn't achieved the kind of success we all crave since the Johnson Administration. I think we've had an overall better program in the OP/BG era than we had in the 1970's and 1980's. I think we are poised to get back on the national radar.

IAFlyer
08-27-2008, 05:12 PM
Using Wikipedia - which is a suspect source, the following would be our history prior to the JOB era (I did not include his first year, either).

1971-72 13-13 1972-73 13-13 1973-74 20-9 NCAA Sweet 161974-75 10-16 1975-76 14-13 1976-77 16-111977-78 19-10 NIT Quarterfinalist1978-79 19-10 NIT 2nd Round1979-80 13-14 1980-81 18-11 NIT 2nd Round1981-82 21-9 NIT Quarterfinalist1982-83 18-10 1983-84 21-11 NCAA Elite Eight1984-85 19-10 NCAA 1st Round1985-86 17-13 NIT 1st Round1986-87 13-15 1987-88 13-18 1988-89 12-17Average record - 17-12Following is the 14 years from Oliver Purnell forward 1994-95 7-20 1995-96 15-14 1996-97 13-141997-98 21-12 NIT 2nd Round1998-99 11-17 1999-00 22-9 NCAA 1st Round2000-01 21-13 NIT Quarterfinals2001-02 21-11 NIT 1st Round2002-03 24-6 NCAA 1st Round2003-04 24-9 NCAA 1st Round2004-05 18-11 2005-06 14-172006-07 19-12 2007-08 23-11 NIT QuarterfinalsAverage record - 18 - 12.5

The Gem
08-27-2008, 06:18 PM
Thanks IA, so were like a half a game ahead of where we were before TK got here, and we have a much better overall athletic program. As a fan I have been frustrated the last couple of years, but I do think better days are ahead.

I wonder what message board chatter would have been like back in the 1970's when the glory days were not just a distant memory. I would venture to say folks would have been calling for Donoher and Frerricks' heads. I remember when DD got fired and most folks at the time (myself included) thought good riddance.

John R
08-27-2008, 06:35 PM
[QUOTE=John C.;67613]Just a thought.

Let's start tman.com and let tman put all of his thoughts there. I'd love to see the number of visits to that site.

This is not a personal attack just a thought.[

Avid Flyer
08-27-2008, 06:42 PM
In all fairness I believe (my .02) DD did an outstanding job with what he had to work with. There weren't a lot of full time coaches back then and our recruiting was somewhat limited to the area and east coast.

Today we have 4 assistant coaches and unlimited funds (so it appears) for travel expenses for recruits etc. DD definetly did not have the equipment to evaluate opponents like we do today. While I feel he did an outstanding job 't considering he never had a prior head coaching job anywhere ever, I do feel the game got away from him. The pace quickened and we were still playing half court ball. Almost worked against UCLA but then the mediocraty came. DD was and still is a great ambassador for UD

I don't think JOB was a bad coach, just not a college coach. He did have success in the pros, but stunk up the place in college.

OP brought us back from the depths of hell to respectability but he couldn't get us an NCAA victory and twice lost NIT games in the arena (Tenn Tech and Detroit) when we were expected to make it MSG. I appreciate what he did, but again he wasn't the right coach to take it to the next level.

BG has the pedigree, spirit, energy, vision, talent and personality to take it to the next level but lacked the experience as a head coach. His OJT was set back a couple years with the untimely transfer of he who we do not mention. BG learned a valuable lesson from that experience, don't put your eggs in one basket. I do believe he is back on track now and for the future. Recruiting has taken a major jump in talent. Playing the "if" game, if injuries hadn't taken its toll last year at 14-1 its unlikely that we would have had the A-10 season we had, and would have been in the NCAA. But that is in the past, it happened and we have to move forward.

What is encouraging is that not only some of us fans see a bright future for the flyers but apparently so do the recruits who are lining up to play for BG and UD. We have finally broken through the local recruiting wall (Pogue and company being the last to snub UD) and now its full speed ahead.

But talk is cheap, its money time now as we are primed to take that next step. With a weakened ooc schedule our win loss record should be fine, but the real step must be taken in the A-10 where we have stumbled last few years. I think the players, coaches and fans are ready. Know I am. Go Flyers!!!

Avid Flyer
08-27-2008, 06:45 PM
[quote=John C.;67613]Just a thought.

Let's start tman.com and let tman put all of his thoughts there. I'd love to see the number of visits to that site.

This is not a personal attack just a thought.[

BB33!!!

Avid Flyer
08-27-2008, 07:07 PM
IAFlyer and The Gem, good reports

So then the record speaks for itself. During the first 17 year span UD had 3 NCAA and 5 NIT appearances.

Throw out the JOB era.

The next 14 year span UD had 3 NCAA and 3 NIT appearances.

So if UD gets an NCAA appearance or 3 NIT appearances they would have a better record than the first 17 year span.

Don't ya just love statistics and facts!!!

ChrisSFlyer
08-27-2008, 08:06 PM
OP brought us back from the depths of hell to respectability but he couldn't get us an NCAA victory and twice lost NIT games in the arena (Tenn Tech and Detroit) when we were expected to make it MSG. I appreciate what he did, but again he wasn't the right coach to take it to the next level.

BG has the pedigree, spirit, energy, vision, talent and personality to take it to the next level but lacked the experience as a head coach. His OJT was set back a couple years with the untimely transfer of he who we do not mention. BG learned a valuable lesson from that experience, don't put your eggs in one basket. I do believe he is back on track now and for the future. Recruiting has taken a major jump in talent. Playing the "if" game, if injuries hadn't taken its toll last year at 14-1 its unlikely that we would have had the A-10 season we had, and would have been in the NCAA. But that is in the past, it happened and we have to move forward.




So why is it that OP gets the blame for not winning a NCAA game when BG had a awesome basketball team his first year here, wins Maui, but gets bounced in the first round? Sean Finn's goaltending, BG lack of experience, all excuses. Why are you so ready to toss OP under the bus but bend over every time BG makes an excuse as to why we couldn't get things done? The only difference between OP and BG is that BG has 2 more NIT wins.

Recruiting is a crapshoot. BG recruited Fat Des and Stafford, while OP recruited Cripe and Stan King. What you people fail to realize is that we have not won a NCAA game since I was in my junior year of high school, and yet you still feel we are better then Xavier.

Please explain that one to me. Please explain how their Elite 8's trump our lower finishing A10 teams? Please explain how their players having a recent pipeline to the NBA is worse then our pipeline to Europe. Please explain how they change coaches and do not miss a beat, we change coaches and either regress or stay the course and never improve.

I'm still waiting on the mythical 'next level' BG is taking us to. Like another poster in a TK related thread said, could it be that if BG does not progress this year, TW can be the bad guy and give BG the ziggy?

UDBrian
08-27-2008, 08:36 PM
ChrisSFlyer, My opinion of OP is that what he did in the first four years was more than extremely impressive. After that progress continued slowly but the last two recruiting seasons were a drop. Unless OP had pulled a rabbit out of his hat the following year and recruited a GREAT class we would have seen the same drop over two years we saw with coach Gregory. Almost nobody wanted OP to leave even though he hadn't won a tournament game.

On paper the recruiting has improved every year that BG has been here, that is why some of us believe BG has the team pointed in the right direction. Those pups just need time to grow up a little. With Charles a senior, Marcus a junior and Chris a sophomore you will see progress this year. The incoming players in the next two years are capable of taking UD to a level we haven't seen in a long time.

Coach K said that his model at Duke was to recruit good people, then you try to increase your talent level each year. That is essentially what BG is doing imho

John R
08-27-2008, 08:40 PM
tman and ChrisSFlyer are related?

ChrisSFlyer
08-27-2008, 09:02 PM
That's a fair reply UDBrian. All I want is UD to be the premier hoops program in Ohio. There is no reason it cannot be done. I just tire at the eaxcuses and the people who are happy with thinking a NIT run should be the pinnacle of UD hoops, nothing more.

I'm sorry I disagree with a lot of you, it's just how I feel and am entitled to my opinion, contrary to what some of you think.

shocka43
08-27-2008, 10:04 PM
IAFlyer and The Gem, good reports

So then the record speaks for itself. During the first 17 year span UD had 3 NCAA and 5 NIT appearances.

Throw out the JOB era.

The next 14 year span UD had 3 NCAA and 3 NIT appearances.

So if UD gets an NCAA appearance or 3 NIT appearances they would have a better record than the first 17 year span.

Don't ya just love statistics and facts!!!

Unfortunately the stats show stagnant progress if you want to take them into consideration.

I have never been one to throw out the we were better then than now, because that obviously isn't the case. Should we be with the talent we have? Absolutely.

The problem is that some are content with not having high expectations or are fine with rationalizing why things haven't drastically or moderately improved in regards to what we are comparing. Hence, the "stats" that have been thrown out.

This is not to start a war with you Avid, just proving a point. Mediocrity has been the standard when it comes to progress. Do enough to get by, fill the seats, get some quality new blood from year to year, and do the same things year after year.

The wait till next year syndrome has been overworked. Lets hope this is better than last. Regardless of injury. Lets hope we don't have to fall back on the BS cognitive dissonance theory that many use to explain why the ball doesn't roll our way. We all want to win and go to the tourney. But it will be the same broken record if it doesn't.

Avid Flyer
08-27-2008, 10:35 PM
The difference is that many of us see the recruiting being upgraded especially the last two years and the 09 and 10 classes even look better. The same could not be said for OP his last two recruiting classes lacked big time and BG inheirited those classes as well as the top class OP had. BG did well with that class winning the Maui but failed in the NCAA just like OP did.

Right now my bet is on the flyers getting over the hump and being a national team again. If not, then it falls flat on BG cause he is certainly getting the talent.

Results results results.

Unfortunately the stats show stagnant progress if you want to take them into consideration.

I have never been one to throw out the we were better then than now, because that obviously isn't the case. Should we be with the talent we have? Absolutely.

The problem is that some are content with not having high expectations or are fine with rationalizing why things haven't drastically or moderately improved in regards to what we are comparing. Hence, the "stats" that have been thrown out.

This is not to start a war with you Avid, just proving a point. Mediocrity has been the standard when it comes to progress. Do enough to get by, fill the seats, get some quality new blood from year to year, and do the same things year after year.

The wait till next year syndrome has been overworked. Lets hope this is better than last. Regardless of injury. Lets hope we don't have to fall back on the BS cognitive dissonance theory that many use to explain why the ball doesn't roll our way. We all want to win and go to the tourney. But it will be the same broken record if it doesn't.

Avid Flyer
08-27-2008, 10:50 PM
Its quite simple really chrisSFlyer, OP's last team got a 4th seed in the tournement and laid and egg. Or have you forgotten. That is why OP gets tagged with the blame. BG wasn't here, JOB wasn't here, it was OP who was the head coach with the No. 4 seed and bombed. BG then took that team and won the Maui then he too bombed in the NCAA but not quite as bad since he didn't have a high seed.

My big reason for giving BG time is he really wants to be here where OP didn't and was using UD as a stepping stone to a big east school. We knew it and that was fine his job was to put humpty dumpty back together again which he did in a grand way but still came up short in both the NIT and NCAA.

Who else are you going to put the blame on for the loss to 11th seeded Tulsa. OP gets kudos for his accomplishments and the blame for his blunders. Same for BG. So far BG has only won the Maui that is impressive on the won loss side but he has broken through the local wall for recruiting and his last two classes are big time with the next two looking even bigger. Now if he can't or doesn't win with those players he is toast.

Its also not nice to compare OP and BG imo on equal par since OP was and is a seasoned coach and BG is or was on the job training. But that is okay too since we accepted OP was using UD as a stepping stone we can accept that BG is a coach in progress.

We are all tired of the waiting game, me just as much as you but I do see a very bright future ahead of us and NOW. This season may start slow with the new players fitting in but I still expect to win most of the occ games with the team seasoned ready for the A-10 conference. Anything less would be unacceptable.

Be nice to win all occ but no more than 2 would be acceptable. Finish in the top four of the A-10 with a run to the finals. AND most importantly win a game or two in the NCAA.

Hope thats not to much to hope for but hey, I'm an optimist, at least this time of year. We'll have to wait to see how it all plays out.

So in conclusion, most give kudos to OP for what he did accomplish at UD but also realize what he didn't.

So why is it that OP gets the blame for not winning a NCAA game when BG had a awesome basketball team his first year here, wins Maui, but gets bounced in the first round? Sean Finn's goaltending, BG lack of experience, all excuses. Why are you so ready to toss OP under the bus but bend over every time BG makes an excuse as to why we couldn't get things done? The only difference between OP and BG is that BG has 2 more NIT wins.

Recruiting is a crapshoot. BG recruited Fat Des and Stafford, while OP recruited Cripe and Stan King. What you people fail to realize is that we have not won a NCAA game since I was in my junior year of high school, and yet you still feel we are better then Xavier.

Please explain that one to me. Please explain how their Elite 8's trump our lower finishing A10 teams? Please explain how their players having a recent pipeline to the NBA is worse then our pipeline to Europe. Please explain how they change coaches and do not miss a beat, we change coaches and either regress or stay the course and never improve.

I'm still waiting on the mythical 'next level' BG is taking us to. Like another poster in a TK related thread said, could it be that if BG does not progress this year, TW can be the bad guy and give BG the ziggy?

UDDoug
08-28-2008, 08:49 AM
Was going to post much the same as above. The belief that we were far better in men's basketball prior to Kissell being AD than we were now just isn't true.

From 1975 to Kissell's arrival UD played in 3 NCAA tournaments. There were 6 seasons with losing records. And if you lay the entire O'Brien fiasco at the feet of the prior administration (appropriately in my mind) you can make it 8 losing seasons in 20 years. There were 5 other years in which UD had a .500 or better record and played in no post season of any kind. During that 20 year period fully 65% of all years UD's season ended with the last regular season game. They did advance in the NCAA twice though if that floats your boat, but it sounds to me the performance of a decent team in a one bid conference who has a couple good years every now and then.

The perception some have that prior to 1992 UD was this gloried basketball program with national attention is just illusion. It was no longer true. The program was little different than it is right now, perhaps even worse off. Altogether, that's something like a 35 year period with what most of us would consider underperformance. If you want to argue the current athletic administration didn't improve men's basketball, that's fair. The argument that they watched it decline is borderline delusional because it already had.

The previous administration did a lot of very good things. Keeping up with men's basketball in the UD Arena era was not one of them.

Atlantic 10
08-28-2008, 09:02 AM
Was going to post much the same as above. The illusion is that we were far better than we were now prior to Kissell being AD just isn't true.

From 1975 to Kissell's arrival UD played in 3 NCAA tournaments. There were 6 seasons with losing records. And if you lay the entire O'Brien fiasco at the feet of the prior administration (appropriately in my mind) you can make it 8 losing seasons in 20 years. There were 5 other years in which UD had a .500 or better record and played in no post season of any kind. During that 20 year period fully 65% of all years UD's season ended with the last regular season game. They did advance in the NCAA twice though.

The perception some have that prior to 1992 UD was this gloried basketball program with national attention is just illusion. It was no longer true. The program was little different than it is right now, perhaps even worse off. Altogether, that's something like a 35 year period with what most of us would consider underperformance. If you want to argue the current athletic administration didn't improve men's basketball, that's fair. The argument that they watched it decline is borderline delusional because it already had.

The previous administration did a lot of very good things. Keeping up with men's basketball in the UD Arena era was not one of them.This has been talked about before, not joining a league and trying to compete as a independent, not changing with the times which previous administrations did not do, as for TV with networks back then, we just missed the boat and have no one to blame but ourselves

Gazoo
08-28-2008, 09:39 AM
I just tire at . . . the people who are happy with thinking a NIT run should be the pinnacle of UD hoops, nothing more.


Name me one person, anywhere, who is directly associated with the program, a season ticket holder, a player, a former player, a casual fan, someone who listens only to radio telecasts once a year, a student or former student of the university, ANYONE who believes that.

There is NO ONE.

By the way I'm sick of people who think that UD should change their entire sports program to D III and change the colors to chocolate brown and light green. Those people make me so sick I just can't stand to listen to them anymore.

UDBrian
08-28-2008, 10:27 AM
That's a fair reply UDBrian. All I want is UD to be the premier hoops program in Ohio. There is no reason it cannot be done. I just tire at the eaxcuses and the people who are happy with thinking a NIT run should be the pinnacle of UD hoops, nothing more.

I'm sorry I disagree with a lot of you, it's just how I feel and am entitled to my opinion, contrary to what some of you think.

Well there are four of us, myself, Tman, you and BG that do not feel that a NIT run should be the pinnacle of UD hoops. I also think there are many more who expect UD to reach a much higher level than that. Last year was simply a small step in the right direction to me.

You compete for NCAA championships with tremendous players and I think that UD is becoming competitive. With good point guard play this year I expect no less than NCAA. But, if UD doesn't make it I wouldn't consider changing coaches. A potential team with Chris Wright, Josh Benson, Matt Kavanaugh, Juwan Staten, Mr Payne, Paul Williams and other talented players with huge upside like Chris Johnson & Luke F. I would bet that BG would admit it has taken him a little longer than he hoped but that potential team (even with some pups) is what UD fans have been waiting for.

smitch425
08-28-2008, 10:40 AM
I am sure that no one is happy to settle for being in the NIT vs. the NCAAs, and most of the flyer faithful could accept the good NIT run last year... but only last year. It needs to be the NCAAs this year or some fans may be tempted to bail(not me). We took a small step in the right direction last year, and I fully believe that without the injuries to Little and Wright we would have been a lock for the NCAAs, and we probably would have made a good run in that tourney. Last year we fell victim to circumstance and we had a confidence breakdown, but this year if we can stay healthy and come out swingin' (like we did last year) we should sail into the big dance.

tman
08-28-2008, 10:57 AM
1973-74 Don Donoher 20-9 - NCAA Sweet 16
1974-75 Don Donoher 10-16 -
1975-76 Don Donoher 14-13 -
1976-77 Don Donoher 16-11 -
1977-78 Don Donoher 19-10 - NIT Quarterfinalist
1978-79 Don Donoher 19-10 - NIT 2nd Round
1979-80 Don Donoher 13-14 -
1980-81 Don Donoher 18-11 - NIT 2nd Round
1981-82 Don Donoher 21-9 - NIT Quarterfinalist
1982-83 Don Donoher 18-10 -
1983-84 Don Donoher 21-11 - NCAA Elite Eight
1984-85 Don Donoher 19-10 - NCAA 1st Round
1985-86 Don Donoher 17-13 - NIT 1st Round
1986-87 Don Donoher 13-15 -
1987-88 Don Donoher 13-18 -
1988-89 Don Donoher 12-17 6-6
1989-90 Jim O'Brien 22-10 10-4 NCAA 2nd Round Conference Tournament Champion

Did someone say WORSE off?
Does this look like we were worse off?

Unbelievable.
The schedule was excitting.
OSU, MICH, Depaul, Notre Dame, Marquette etc
The Arena rocked.
It was a little tougher to get into the post season.
The highlight of the year was NOT the Miami game

WE played in back to back NCAA's. Losing both times to the evidential NCAA champs, including an elite eight trip. WE lost in the NCAA next season---and maybe someone could help here--I think by one point and gave Villanova their best game of their tournament.
WE actually had the game in hand but--if I remember correctly---I think Anthony Grant turned the ball over and gave Villanova new life.

Sure there were some lean times. However many of those Sundays on selection day was pretty excitting. Includding one where it appeared we were on the bubble---and ended up not playing in the NIT---because, as the NIT stated later--they thought we were playing in the NCAA

If you could go back in time---walk into the arena --see Jim Paxson or Rosevelt Chapman play agaist the best college basketball teams in the nation, I think you might feel a little different than the morgue the Arena has turned into the last several years (sans one game).

UD fans during the last four years witnessed one of the best players to ever wear the red and blue. They and B-rob was rewarded by playing in one nit game.

I don't think these are they best of times---WORSE--no way.

Gazoo
08-28-2008, 11:42 AM
Funny how 1 game would have banished all this talk. 1 win against Tulsa and poof suddenly we are great again. 1 win against DePaul and poof we're great again.

Why can't people see the difference between process and results? You can't control results. You can only control process.

There is a good processs in place. Unfortunately some people want us to make 2 or 3 years worth of progress in 1 year.

NO ONE IS HAPPY WITH WHERE WE ARE. When people say that they are, what they're really saying "I'm happy with the process in place, I'm looking forward to seeing this process play out. It should lead to good results." It might not.

If in 2 years we have not seen appropriate results we'll have to consider whether or not to make a change. Last year was supposed to be BG's NCAA year. It was--until injury. This year is supposed to be a borderline NCAA / NIT year (in my mind). Next year should be a solid NCAA year.

NO I'M NOT A CUBS FAN ALWAYS SAYING "NEXT YEAR". I'm looking realistically at the situation. 2 steps forward. 1 back. 2 forward again. 1 back.

tman
08-28-2008, 12:13 PM
Funny how 1 game would have banished all this talk. 1 win against Tulsa and poof suddenly we are great again. 1 win against DePaul and poof we're great again.

Why can't people see the difference between process and results? You can't control results. You can only control process.

There is a good processs in place. Unfortunately some people want us to make 2 or 3 years worth of progress in 1 year.

NO ONE IS HAPPY WITH WHERE WE ARE. When people say that they are, what they're really saying "I'm happy with the process in place, I'm looking forward to seeing this process play out. It should lead to good results." It might not.

If in 2 years we have not seen appropriate results we'll have to consider whether or not to make a change. Last year was supposed to be BG's NCAA year. It was--until injury. This year is supposed to be a borderline NCAA / NIT year (in my mind). Next year should be a solid NCAA year.

NO I'M NOT A CUBS FAN ALWAYS SAYING "NEXT YEAR". I'm looking realistically at the situation. 2 steps forward. 1 back. 2 forward again. 1 back.

In large part I agree with your post Gaz. Except.
2 or 3 years worth of progress-----I think many fans thought the rebuilding process was done by OP---Even with what some fans consider a weak recruiting class left by OP---that was eight years ago----So--its much more than wanting it in ONE season.

I also might add.---for those of us that paid attention---yes, the Wright injury hurt Dayton.
It should not have ruined the season. The facts are ---the coaching staff was UNABLE to counter a defense first brought about by coach Ford, the UMASS coach. And then duplicated by every coach after that. WE lost games we should not have---and I don't believe it would have mattered who played--this coaching staff did not have answers for it.


So blame injuries----it certainly hurt---but there is a bigger picture. Perhaps it was personell,, I don't know-----but to say the only reason last year ended as poor as it did was because Chris Wright got hurt---is not telling the whole story--.

Chris R
08-28-2008, 12:18 PM
Unbelievable.
The schedule was excitting.
OSU, MICH, Depaul, Notre Dame, Marquette etc


I'll finish your sentence for you....

"The schedule was excitting(sic). OSU, Michigan, DePaul, Notre Dame, Marquette, Baldwin-Wallace, Otterbein, Findlay, Loyola (LA), Wittenberg, Biscayne, Seattle, St. Joseph's (IN), Ashland, Rollins, Cal Poly Pomona, Cal State Hayward, Roanoke, Jersey City, Brooklyn, etc.

NCkevi
08-28-2008, 12:39 PM
Even with what some fans consider a weak recruiting class left by OP---that was eight years ago

I think OP's last recruiting class was 2003-2004, so there have been four seasons played since then (not quite 8 years!)

tman
08-28-2008, 01:20 PM
This is BG's sixth year.
OP coached here seven seasons ago
Thats not quit four years ago
THanks for the imput.

Atlantic 10
08-28-2008, 01:33 PM
I'll finish your sentence for you....

"The schedule was excitting(sic). OSU, Michigan, DePaul, Notre Dame, Marquette, Baldwin-Wallace, Otterbein, Findlay, Loyola (LA), Wittenberg, Biscayne, Seattle, St. Joseph's (IN), Ashland, Rollins, Cal Poly Pomona, Cal State Hayward, Roanoke, Jersey City, Brooklyn, etc.And we lost to Biscayne a D2 at that time

UDDoug
08-28-2008, 01:36 PM
This is BG's sixth year.
OP coached here seven seasons ago
Thats not quit four years ago
THanks for imput.

OP's last recruiting class was Gregory's first year as coach. That was 2003-04 and it consisted of Chris Spears. That was also four completed seasons ago (04-05, 05-06, 06-07, and 07-08). Which is exactly what was posted.

Thanks for playing.

smitch425
08-28-2008, 01:41 PM
:popcorn:

tman
08-28-2008, 01:42 PM
I'll finish your sentence for you....

"The schedule was excitting(sic). OSU, Michigan, DePaul, Notre Dame, Marquette, Baldwin-Wallace, Otterbein, Findlay, Loyola (LA), Wittenberg, Biscayne, Seattle, St. Joseph's (IN), Ashland, Rollins, Cal Poly Pomona, Cal State Hayward, Roanoke, Jersey City, Brooklyn, etc.

I know you think the schedule is better now (lately) than back then. I take it, that is the point your making.
You do realize that we played the other big three---twice each year--Thats six games against Notre DAme, Depaul and marquette each year.
Thats ok if thats your opinion.

AS a season ticketholder since the 70's I have to disagree.
If fact I don't thinks its even close.
It was common to see Wisconsin or a Alabama in the UDIT.

I dont expect that kind of schedule now---I understand things have changed---I'm not trying to make a case for anything---its just a statement.

I've read more ANTI Dayton basketball stuff from the very individuals that want to declare how they dispise negativity here. IN order to make the present look good--they bad mouth the history of our fine program. Includding the fine coaches, AD' and the many great players.

So lets see if I have this right.
The schedule back then stunk.
The Coach stunk.
The players stuck.
It was only after TK and BG arrived that we now can have a decent program.
Thats laughable.

I hope BG takes us too the promise land. I hope he's here for twenty more years. I hope that I can go down to our arena excitted about our great talent and watch us beat strong competition.

But let me let you in on a secret that the rest of the world knows--that you don't.
Ready--here it comes.

Brian Gregory----great recruiter---lousy coach.
The sooner you recognize it--the sooner we can move on.

UDDoug
08-28-2008, 01:57 PM
1973-74 Don Donoher 20-9 - NCAA Sweet 16
1974-75 Don Donoher 10-16 -
1975-76 Don Donoher 14-13 -
1976-77 Don Donoher 16-11 -
1977-78 Don Donoher 19-10 - NIT Quarterfinalist
1978-79 Don Donoher 19-10 - NIT 2nd Round
1979-80 Don Donoher 13-14 -
1980-81 Don Donoher 18-11 - NIT 2nd Round
1981-82 Don Donoher 21-9 - NIT Quarterfinalist
1982-83 Don Donoher 18-10 -
1983-84 Don Donoher 21-11 - NCAA Elite Eight
1984-85 Don Donoher 19-10 - NCAA 1st Round
1985-86 Don Donoher 17-13 - NIT 1st Round
1986-87 Don Donoher 13-15 -
1987-88 Don Donoher 13-18 -
1988-89 Don Donoher 12-17 6-6
1989-90 Jim O'Brien 22-10 10-4 NCAA 2nd Round Conference Tournament Champion

Did someone say WORSE off?

Why are you leaving off the next two years of O'Brien? Kissell wasn't the AD in 1990-91 or for most of the 91-92 season (relying on the UD release saying he is completing his 17th year)? You are also including the 73-74 season which isn't in the 18 year time span that ends with 91-92.

In the last 17 years Dayton also made the NCAAs in back to back years. In fact they made it 3 times in a 5 year period, something not accomplished in the previous 18 years.

The primary difference is UD won 3 games once and won one once, rather than being one and done. But they also had more losing seasons and more seasons with no postseason.

As you like to say figures can lie, and liars figure.

I'd also dispute that it was harder to make the postseason. The postseason size for about half the correct sample is the same as it is has been for nearly all the current period. And there were far fewer division one teams and even fewer who really attempted to play at a national level (read about all the CAA, many in the SEC, the BE didn't exist for all the period, nearly all the B12, the WCC , much of the WAC and MWC). And for parts of the earlier 18 years the NCAA limited bids to the NCAA to one, then two. You do realize that in your sample period Maryland finished in the top 3 in the polls and didn't make the NCAA (IIRC in a year Dayton got one of the last bids). And you think it was harder for an independent like Dayton to get a bid?

John C.
08-28-2008, 02:41 PM
I'm not sure you can compare getting into the tournamnets 30 years ago with what it takes today. Look at the records that got UD in. Those would never float today. It's a different world today with the prejudice against non-BCS schools.

tman
08-28-2008, 02:57 PM
And we lost to Biscayne a D2 at that time

So whats the point?
What are you saying?

I was at this game and the game before.
WE played cincinnati at the new collisium.
At the time it was the largest number of people to ever watch a basketball game in Ohio.
Dayton had a really good team. And it looked like they were headed to the NCAA torny.

It was--- as always when you played Cincy --a very physical game.
Dayton played very well. I don't want to say we got homererd by the refs so lets just say--you could easily tell we were playing in Cincinnati.

Jim Paxson was one of the greatest college players Ive ever seen. Without the ball he was as good as anyone who's ever played and Cincinnati knew it. AS Paxson moved without the ball Cincy pounded on him. Paxson left the game in the second half with a shoulder injury.

It was end of a very promising season. Paxson was unable to play in the next games. It sucked the air out of the Flyers---once they got to Florida, their mind set was flat out terrible. They had lost their leader, the All-American.

It was a nightmare-- Biscayne won.
Dayton never recovered.


Thirty years later some guy on a message board throws this incident into my face again---sorry--you cant hurt me anymore than the pain I felt that week.

What was your point again?

shocka43
08-28-2008, 02:58 PM
The difference is that many of us see the recruiting being upgraded especially the last two years and the 09 and 10 classes even look better. The same could not be said for OP his last two recruiting classes lacked big time and BG inheirited those classes as well as the top class OP had. BG did well with that class winning the Maui but failed in the NCAA just like OP did.

Right now my bet is on the flyers getting over the hump and being a national team again. If not, then it falls flat on BG cause he is certainly getting the talent.

Results results results.

I agree that recruiting has been better. In my opinion recruiting has been very good under BG considering. Now, what it comes down to is what is being done with those recruits.

I guess it boils down to some frustrations from last year. Excuses don't cut it anymore. I believe that anyone that thinks we should have lost ballgames last year because of injuries and illnesses has been sitting in Drexel hitting the pipe one too many times. The bottom line is when results aren't obtained someone is responsible. Games lost when personnel aren't responsible, brings me to narrow it down to people that don't wear uniforms. It is hard not to agree with TMan when he says that staff doesn't have an answer for certain schemes. That was surely the case last year. Did we loose games because of player performance, yes. Did we loose games because of staff performance, yes. I can fault a kids mistakes moreso than an adult whose career is based of making sound game/prep decisions.

I guess we are all at a crossroads on our opinions, because this thread hasn't been as heated as those in the past. You can bet your money if results aren't obtained by March, these old threads will be brought up from the basement.

cj
08-28-2008, 03:05 PM
So whats the point?
What are you saying?

Jim Paxson was one of the greatest college players Ive ever seen. Without the ball he was as good as anyone who's ever played and Cincinnati knew it. AS Paxson moved without the ball Cincy pounded on him. Paxson left the game in the second half with a shoulder injury.

It was end of a very promising season. Paxson was unable to play in the next games. It sucked the air out of the Flyers---once they got to Florida, their mind set was flat out terrible. They had lost their leader, the All-American.

It was a nightmare-- Biscayne won.
Dayton never recovered.


Thirty years later some guy on a message board throws this incident into my face again---sorry--you cant hurt me anymore than the pain I felt that week.

What was your point again?

So the coaching staff and administration gets a pass if Paxson gets hurt and we lose to a D2 school and don't make the tourney but the same is not true if Wright, arguably the best UD recruit in a long time and potential future All-American, gets hurt and we lose to D1 schools and don't make the tourney. We all felt the pain when CW could not play.

AC91
08-28-2008, 03:11 PM
I just don't get this. Let it go. it is what it is. and, lest we forget, we had one of the better schedules in memory just last year. it goes in cycles and, why is it that when we did the creighton series a couple of years ago, everyone thinks we should continue it, when we signed the GM deal (soon after their NCAA run) it seemed like a good idea, We get Marquette and an SEC school in a tournament. i personally think it only looks bad to some because last year's schedule looked so good. Also, as far as UD performance over time, I laid this out last year. when you look at fact, UDs performance is on the rise (and to not expect natural variation in the climb, is unreasonable). here is a post where I did a breakdown by coach and decade about a year ago: all you have to do is add the NIT season from a year ago to these numbers.

http://udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?p=58415#post58415

the NCAA hoops world is evolving...ND, Depaul, OSU, UC, et al are not going to come to UD like they used to. period. UD doesn't have the same support network in the selection process that it used to have (what year was it that ND's AD went to bat for UD's inclusion?)...it's all driven by CBS' billions now. In the end, the only thing that hasn't changed are success measurements: winning and post season play. and the way I look at it, UD's program has seen more overall success (winning seasons, post season) in the 2000s than it has since the 60s.

It's also funny how time softens our views. 20 years ago it was great to be on the edge of our seats waiting for a bid on sunday, but last year when it happened, the administration is inept.

can we have a flag of some sort on all of these "beating a dead horse" threads so i know not to go there?

:beermug: :deadhorse: :outtahere:

San Diego Flyer
08-28-2008, 03:46 PM
It's also funny how time softens our views. 20 years ago it was great to be on the edge of our seats waiting for a bid on sunday, but last year when it happened, the administration is inept.


Last year and every year for some. But it's only a precious few that squeak louder and more often trying to make us think it's more than a handfull of radically disgruntled fans.

Furio
08-28-2008, 04:38 PM
The NCAA bids in the 70's probably wouldn't have happened had Tom Frericks not been on the Selection Committee.
Jim Paxson played in how many NCAA tournament games in the 70's?
Zero in four years.

ChrisSFlyer
08-28-2008, 06:12 PM
I also might add.---for those of us that paid attention---yes, the Wright injury hurt Dayton.
It should not have ruined the season. The facts are ---the coaching staff was UNABLE to counter a defense first brought about by coach Ford, the UMASS coach. And then duplicated by every coach after that. WE lost games we should not have---and I don't believe it would have mattered who played--this coaching staff did not have answers for it.


You mean to tell me that yet again, BG cannot make adjustements to his team that counter those of the opposing coach? How dare anyone question the game coaching of BG??

Travis Ford OWNS Brian Gregory, he's undefeated against him. Outside of the 'Wizard of Oz - behind the curtain' adjustment of Maui, BG's game coaching has been very suspect, and it has cost us wins. Inability to switch who is inbounding the ball, coaches like Danny Nee making BG look like a fool with his in game adjustments, are just a couple of blunders that should not have happened.

If anything has killed our momentum, it's not BG's ability to recruit, it's his ability to be a game coach and recognize what adjustments he needs to make to win. There are probably 2-3 games each year that are blown by BG's lack of experience. And in years like last, that's the difference between NCAA, NIT, or sitting at home.

We had just the opposite with OP. Heck of a game coach, suspect as a recruiter, that's where Pete Strickland and Ron Jirsa were crucial to our successes. I still say a veteran bench coach would go a long way for helping BG achieve some success. Billy Donovan knew enough to hire Larry Shyatt, Tubby Smith had Karl Hobbs, etc. Would a Danny Nee type be so bad for the bench here?

UDDoug
08-28-2008, 06:13 PM
The NCAA bids in the 70's probably wouldn't have happened had Tom Frericks not been on the Selection Committee.
Jim Paxson played in how many NCAA tournament games in the 70's?
Zero in four years.

And Jack Zimmerman played in zero. Johnny Davis, Mike Sylvester and Donald Smith in one (and no NITs). Negele Knight in one.

It is what it is, and it should be better. But UD has been a mediocre program for 35 years. Some need to accept that it isn't some new development, and quit giving the decades of the 70s and 80s a pass because they were closer in proximity to the glory days and UD once had a year like Cleveland State and Navy (i.e. one great player creating one NCAA run).

John R
08-28-2008, 06:27 PM
You mean to tell me that yet again, BG cannot make adjustements to his team that counter those of the opposing coach? How dare anyone question the game coaching of BG??

Travis Ford OWNS Brian Gregory, he's undefeated against him. Outside of the 'Wizard of Oz - behind the curtain' adjustment of Maui, BG's game coaching has been very suspect, and it has cost us wins. Inability to switch who is inbounding the ball, coaches like Danny Nee making BG look like a fool with his in game adjustments, are just a couple of blunders that should not have happened.

If anything has killed our momentum, it's not BG's ability to recruit, it's his ability to be a game coach and recognize what adjustments he needs to make to win. There are probably 2-3 games each year that are blown by BG's lack of experience. And in years like last, that's the difference between NCAA, NIT, or sitting at home.

We had just the opposite with OP. Heck of a game coach, suspect as a recruiter, that's where Pete Strickland and Ron Jirsa were crucial to our successes. I still say a veteran bench coach would go a long way for helping BG achieve some success. Billy Donovan knew enough to hire Larry Shyatt, Tubby Smith had Karl Hobbs, etc. Would a Danny Nee type be so bad for the bench here?


I guess its time for BG to hire ChrisSFlyer as bench coach.

Since you seem to think???? ChrisSFlyer that you have all the answers why don't you offer your serivces to BG?

Avid Flyer
08-28-2008, 06:53 PM
If memory serves me there was at least one seasoned former head coach sitting on the bench last year. Funny how those who have no D1 coaching experience believe they have all the answers. If that is the case then get off your arse and go for a D1 coaching job, then we'll see just how much you do know.

Atlantic 10
08-28-2008, 07:00 PM
So whats the point?
What are you saying?

I was at this game and the game before.
WE played cincinnati at the new collisium.
At the time it was the largest number of people to ever watch a basketball game in Ohio.
Dayton had a really good team. And it looked like they were headed to the NCAA torny.

It was--- as always when you played Cincy --a very physical game.
Dayton played very well. I don't want to say we got homererd by the refs so lets just say--you could easily tell we were playing in Cincinnati.

Jim Paxson was one of the greatest college players Ive ever seen. Without the ball he was as good as anyone who's ever played and Cincinnati knew it. AS Paxson moved without the ball Cincy pounded on him. Paxson left the game in the second half with a shoulder injury.

It was end of a very promising season. Paxson was unable to play in the next games. It sucked the air out of the Flyers---once they got to Florida, their mind set was flat out terrible. They had lost their leader, the All-American.

It was a nightmare-- Biscayne won.
Dayton never recovered.


Thirty years later some guy on a message board throws this incident into my face again---sorry--you cant hurt me anymore than the pain I felt that week.

What was your point again?
Dude get a grip, I remember those years and they were not good, plus where did you get I threw it in your face,I was adding to what Chris said about those teams that we played those years

Avid Flyer
08-28-2008, 07:14 PM
Anytime someone throws in facts its throwing it in his face. Unfortunately tman uses this forum for his tantrums, where was his posts when we were going 14-1. Anyone ever see kudos from tman?

shocka43
08-28-2008, 07:36 PM
Funny how those who have no D1 coaching experience believe they have all the answers. If that is the case then get off your arse and go for a D1 coaching job, then we'll see just how much you do know.

Many sports writers/journalists/media types don't have D-1 coaching experience either, and they can give a fair assessment of coaching, personnel, and the game. I have a feeling there are some ex-college players on here that are able to give a fair assessment of how they feel, and it may be correct.

Just because some followed other career choices after college doesn't mean they don't know the sport. Maybe an unpaid grad assistant at a D-III school wasn't for everyone. Some profess to be basketball scholars on here that never even stepped on a floor or played in a high school or collegiate game. Just because opinions differ, don't mean they aren't correct. I can attest that I hear more negative about things in public than on a forum that generally is made up of staunch supporters that rarely have a bad thing to say. Had two attorneys comment on TK today. It didn't sit with the majority opinion on here and I am willing to bet they have never heard of udpride. 2,424 members on udpride are a very small percentage of Flyer followers, supporters, and ticket holders. It is kind of like going to a GOP website expecting supporters to criticize the republicans...See the potential for bias.

I see both sides of the coin. But I am also in the minority on here that isn't happy with in game coaching and stagnant progress. I haven't been for a while. Too bad, get over it, thats my opinion. You all are entitled to yours.

Lets just get the ball rolling our way early and let things work themselves out. The tools are in the bag at this point. Considering the bag is heavier than years past, it boils down to having those tools used properly. We all know as ticket holders we are going to do our part. If they come to play, are prepared, and good in game decisions are made, this should be a good season. Lets see how it pans out.

ChrisSFlyer
08-28-2008, 08:33 PM
If memory serves me there was at least one seasoned former head coach sitting on the bench last year. Funny how those who have no D1 coaching experience believe they have all the answers. If that is the case then get off your arse and go for a D1 coaching job, then we'll see just how much you do know.

You call Anthony Solomon seasoned?? The steaks I cook on my grill had more seasoning then he did. That's laughable. If Paul Biancardi had been here, you'd have a valid point, but Solomon was in way over his head as a head coach.

I would love a D1 coaching job, it is a dream one. And to counter your point Avid, if you know so much, why aren't you on the sidelines? I guess we're both equally deficient at basketball acumen.

And shocka, well said.

AC91
08-28-2008, 09:30 PM
I see both sides of the coin. But I am also in the minority on here that isn't happy with in game coaching and stagnant progress. I haven't been for a while. Too bad, get over it, thats my opinion. You all are entitled to yours.

Lets just get the ball rolling our way early and let things work themselves out. The tools are in the bag at this point. Considering the bag is heavier than years past, it boils down to having those tools used properly. We all know as ticket holders we are going to do our part. If they come to play, are prepared, and good in game decisions are made, this should be a good season. Lets see how it pans out.

this right here points to why people get so riled up over this topic. Presented like this you have your say based on facts presented as facts and opinion presented as opinion, others have theirs and, as you say you can respectfully disagree. however, it is the redundant ranting over the same issues, the presentation of opinion as fact, the rejection of fact based on emotion that drives everyone nuts and takes the convesation down a few notches.

example: Iam a Jets fan. I am in a minority opinion that has me unhappy that they traded for Brett Favre. My team doesn't need a 39 year old QB when the reason the past QB didnt succeed had everything to do with a horrible front 5, and, in my mind, he lowered himself to T.O.'s standards and i am really disappointed that my team rewarded that. However, after I got all of that off my chest when the trade happened, I said to myself that i could continue annoying my friends with the same arguments despite the fact that the team i choose to support made a decision and i started sounding like a fool (not for the thoughts, but for the redundancy). So, i recognized that i said my peace and that Brett Favre is the QB of my team and that I could root for them, or i could change my allegiance to another team (after all i've been through with the Jets, not a chance!).

you stated your peace, and i can respect it...I even understand what you are saying though i don't necessarily agree. now we can move on and have other discussions related to the flyers. we can even revisit this debate with additiona data points. unfortunately, that is not the dynamic others on the board create. others can't say their peace and be done with it, and they certainly have not shown any respect for opinion or even facts that go against what they are saying.

your last paragraph is perfect, by the way...the tools are in the bag and now it is time for the players and coaches to step up. I can't wait!

Avid Flyer
08-28-2008, 11:20 PM
You call Anthony Solomon seasoned?? The steaks I cook on my grill had more seasoning then he did. That's laughable. If Paul Biancardi had been here, you'd have a valid point, but Solomon was in way over his head as a head coach.

I would love a D1 coaching job, it is a dream one. And to counter your point Avid, if you know so much, why aren't you on the sidelines? I guess we're both equally deficient at basketball acumen.

And shocka, well said.

Case you don't seem to get it I am not the one calling the players coaches etc out. i am not pretending I know more about coaching then they do or how to play the game. If the injuries didn't happen last year the 14-1 start could have should have continued....then there would be none of this second guessing.

Will be watching to see if the team gets a great start like last year and keeps it going if the naysayers will still come on here and post.

Avid Flyer
08-28-2008, 11:40 PM
Many sports writers/journalists/media types don't have D-1 coaching experience either, and they can give a fair assessment of coaching, personnel, and the game. I have a feeling there are some ex-college players on here that are able to give a fair assessment of how they feel, and it may be correct.

Just because some followed other career choices after college doesn't mean they don't know the sport. Maybe an unpaid grad assistant at a D-III school wasn't for everyone. Some profess to be basketball scholars on here that never even stepped on a floor or played in a high school or collegiate game. Just because opinions differ, don't mean they aren't correct. I can attest that I hear more negative about things in public than on a forum that generally is made up of staunch supporters that rarely have a bad thing to say. Had two attorneys comment on TK today. It didn't sit with the majority opinion on here and I am willing to bet they have never heard of udpride. 2,424 members on udpride are a very small percentage of Flyer followers, supporters, and ticket holders. It is kind of like going to a GOP website expecting supporters to criticize the republicans...See the potential for bias.

I see both sides of the coin. But I am also in the minority on here that isn't happy with in game coaching and stagnant progress. I haven't been for a while. Too bad, get over it, thats my opinion. You all are entitled to yours.

Lets just get the ball rolling our way early and let things work themselves out. The tools are in the bag at this point. Considering the bag is heavier than years past, it boils down to having those tools used properly. We all know as ticket holders we are going to do our part. If they come to play, are prepared, and good in game decisions are made, this should be a good season. Lets see how it pans out.

Just thought I'd through this in since it sorta applies here. We all know Charlie Coles Miami O's coach. Well he was sitting in his den watching Dayton play (forget the opponent) when they had to make 4 attempts to inbounds the ball. After 3 straight failures Charlie was beside himslef watching his friend BG's team struggle so much. Finally they got the ball inbounds on the 4th try. Charlie was quoted as disbelieving what he witnessed on the tube, and from a coache's perspective critisising it as well. The very next game Charlie found himself in the very same predictiment as UD/BG was the night before, only now it was Charlie who had to make 4 attemps before getting the ball inbounds. After the game he talked about the similar circumstances of the two coaches and teams and stated its a lot easier in your den than on the sideline. When ased to explain further he said that the opponent has a coach too and that if the opposing coach guesses right about what they think you are going to do and put in the right defense then you get what happend to UD and Miami tonight. (Paraphrasing all this).

the point here is that even Charlie a seasoned coach was second guessing BG but found himself in the exact position the next game. What we sometimes forget is that the opposing team wants to win as badly as we do and they too have a coaching staff that has prepared for the game.

When a coach draws up a play the players are still the ones who have to execute. If memory serves me in that particular game seems to me that the players were waiting for the ball to come to them instead of going to the ball, whose fault is that, both probaly.

Watching that Miami O game and listening to Charlie after made me realize that things don't always work out as drawn on paper. Remember both teams coaches are darwing up plays.

When the inbounds play works it sometimes make the opponet and coach look silly as it did when UD went for the home roun ball down the court to an open player. Totally embarrassed the opponent.

One thing is for sure, we are all passioate fans who want to see UD win and retun to national prominance. As AC91 stated, we can all agree to disagree.

Glen Clark
08-29-2008, 12:06 AM
You call Anthony Solomon seasoned?? The steaks I cook on my grill had more seasoning then he did. That's laughable. If Paul Biancardi had been here, you'd have a valid point, but Solomon was in way over his head as a head coach.

I would love a D1 coaching job, it is a dream one. And to counter your point Avid, if you know so much, why aren't you on the sidelines? I guess we're both equally deficient at basketball acumen.

And shocka, well said.

I disagree with your assessment of Anthony Solomon - he took on an impossible task at St Boneventure; just keeping the basketball program alive was a major success.
You're probably putting too much salt on your steaks.

John R
08-29-2008, 06:29 AM
I disagree with your assessment of Anthony Solomon - he took on an impossible task at St Boneventure; just keeping the basketball program alive was a major success.
You're probably putting too much salt on your steaks.

The problem with Chris is how much what he is drinking when he is burning those steaks.

John R
08-29-2008, 06:39 AM
Case you don't seem to get it I am not the one calling the players coaches etc out. i am not pretending I know more about coaching then they do or how to play the game. If the injuries didn't happen last year the 14-1 start could have should have continued....then there would be none of this second guessing.

Will be watching to see if the team gets a great start like last year and keeps it going if the naysayers will still come on here and post.

Thats one of the problems I have with ChrisSFlyer.He is Always calling out the way BG coaches.
Come on Chris since you think???you can coach better then BG tell us what he shoud do.

UDDoug
08-29-2008, 08:19 AM
I know you think the schedule is better now (lately) than back then. I take it, that is the point your making.
You do realize that we played the other big three---twice each year--Thats six games against Notre DAme, Depaul and marquette each year.
Thats ok if thats your opinion.

AS a season ticketholder since the 70's I have to disagree.
If fact I don't thinks its even close.

The first year UD played ND, Marquette, Depaul twice each year was 84/85. That arrangement lasted for the most part until UD was left out of CUSA. Don't make it sound like it was a long term arrangement. In fact, UD did not play Marquette a single time in the 70s, and played ND once each year. There were other times UD and Depaul would play twice.

Here are some actual home schedules for a four year period.

79/80
Ashland, Cal Poly, Biscayne, Eastern Ky, Pacific, Iowa, Baldwin Wallace, Miami, Cincinnati, Howard, New Orleans, Memphis, Southern, Loyola, Drexel

80/81
Rider, San Francisco, Western Ky, Michigan, Niagra, Mississippi, Toledo, Yale, Miami, Marquette, Butler, Alcorn State, Canisius, Duquesne, Xavier, DePaul

81/82
Baldwin Wallace, Old Dominion, Hofstra, Florida State, Miami, Cincinnati, Loyola, Jersey City State, St Louis, Providence, Detroit, LaSalle, Akron, New Orleans, Eastern Kentucky

82/83
Otterbein, Iona, Xavier, Minnesota, Toledo, Western Ky, Rice, Army, Miami, Rider, Drexel, Duquesne, Temple, Butler, Marquette, Long Island, Depaul

The point isn't to say the schedule stunk then and is better now. There were good games and bad games then. Probably more top level games, although Memphis, Mississippi, Florida State then aren't what they would be now.

Rather, the point is to correct the misperception you perpetuate by throwing out the good names that were on the schedule without balancing it with the dogs. During the 70s and 80s UD had home and home arrangements with the likes of Eastern Kentucky, Toledo, Bowling Green, Iona, Canisius, and Niagra.

And if you take this as being a statement that things are great now and stunk then as you do nearly all responses, you couldn't be more wrong. There is more agreement with the sentiment that things aren't as good as they should be than you may think. Rather, the volumes of responses are because you almost always get the facts wrong and distort reality by presenting unbalanced information more often than any politician.

ChrisSFlyer
08-29-2008, 08:21 AM
Avid, I honestly don't want to be a naysayer. I don't understand why someone who offers their opinion that does not go along with the "all is well" mantra on this board is labeled a naysayer, troll, should be banned for infinity, etc. Do those of us who aren't seeing promised results come to fruition have a right to be somewhat diappointed? Why do you not pay us some kind of courtesy like you do those who just toe the company line? I have a question, when will next year be next year? I want next year to happen more then you think, but I'm tired of hearing wait until next year, that's a cop out for people with no honest answers on how to fix things. This is year six of next year.

I think that BG has done more then any coach, past or present, to ingrain himself into the Dayton community, be a visible figure outside of Bob Ross commercials, and performed great works with charities in the area. I do not hate the guy one bit.

That being said, I think a little seasoning would have gone a long way for both the team's improvement and his as well. The offense gets too stagnant. We've got horses and he has us runnig a weave. I say open the floor up. Teach London how to play fast, but within that speed. Teach guys a transition game. That's why CW, and MJ for that matter, look head and shoulders above everyone else, they play well in transition. Learn to switch defenses better. I'll give BG his props, he's been great out of timeouts for getting a steal or bucket. I just feel a more experienced set of eyes would have been beneficial.

Glen, people would say the same thing about us when OP took over. 10 wins in 2 years, no recruiting to speak of, no conference, how much more impossible was their situation then ous was? At least SBU had a conference situation that was stable. Solomon was not the best choice for that program, he only had what 3 years under Brey? There was no way he was ready for an A10 level job, no matter if it was SBU or X.

shocka43
08-29-2008, 09:24 AM
JWhen ased to explain further he said that the opponent has a coach too and that if the opposing coach guesses right about what they think you are going to do and put in the right defense then you get what happend to UD and Miami tonight. (Paraphrasing all this).

What we sometimes forget is that the opposing team wants to win as badly as we do and they too have a coaching staff that has prepared for the game.

I agree with all that you have said, but regarding these above sections.... I am not discrediting your philosophy on any of this, because it is correct. I take it one step further over the course of time and look at it further, which is why I draw opinions like I do.

If the opposition "guesses" the correct counter more often than we "guess" the correct O...If this team is less prepared than the opposition...You can bet where I place the blame when it comes to preparation and "guessing". I don't want to rehash last seasons errors, as in the upcoming months we have something new and something fresh to look forward to. But, if these things happen that you have mentioned and the terms out coached or our prepped enter our mind, then those trends aren't positive for the continued upswing.

Anyone who has played ball at a competitive HS or in college knows what they are about to face. I can still tell you to this day what plays some high schools in the Dayton area run and have been for 15 years. Anyone else know what Trotwood runs on opening tip? Yup you guessed it. They have been running it forever and teams still don't put a man in the paint and stop it. In college scouting was imperative. Notebooks each week on the opposition. We knew them better than they probably knew themselves. Retarded amounts of walk throughs and scout team prep. We all know that UD does these things, it is silly not to assume that, every school does. What does this boil down to? This means that the game SHOULD boil do to personnel and execution. Man versus man, team versus team. From what the consensus is, we have the personnel. The other consensus is that people don't like BG's in game coaching questioned. Mistakes are one or the other. This season will tell where we are.

Coaches, players and everyone else should learn from their mistakes and their improper "guesses". If people have learned and they don't happen again on a consistent basis, then all is good. The major problem is when people don't change after realizing those errors. This season will tell whether those things have changed. Fortunately this years team is much more balanced and should be better off.

Avid Flyer
08-29-2008, 10:01 AM
Shocka43, I believe it was one of the TV commentators who suggested why UD was having such a hard time getting the ball in, and it wasn't because the coach didn't drawup a good inbounds play. It had to do with the reason the players were not going to the ball. His opinion was that it was due to poor free throw shooting and the knew if they got the inbounds pass they'd be fouled and have to go to the line with the game on the line. So if may not have been poor inbounds play but rather poor coaoching on getting the players to shoot better free throws. No sure which or if any coach is assigned that duty, but in the end it falls on the head coach, one way or the other. So in that aspect we all agree, I think.

Bill McPeek
08-29-2008, 10:06 AM
UDDoug, you have a valid argument regarding schedules when you look at the schedules for the years posted. I was at UD from 67-71. I remember playing Louisville, Xavier, DePaul all home and home and Cincinnati, Miami and Notre Dame once a year alternating the home court. But I also remember the Baldwin Wallaces, the Gannons, etc. You mentioned Niagara. I do remember playing Niagara at home, in the Fieldhouse, when they had Calvin Murphy. Like everything else we all have selective memory. For example, we remember the "good" times of our lives and tend to put aside the "not so good times". I seriously doubt that "in the good ol' days" only the top teams were coming into the Fieldhouse, or the Fairgrounds for that matter, on a regular basis. The whole landscape of college basketball has changed greatly since the fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties.

shocka43
08-29-2008, 10:11 AM
Shocka43, I believe it was one of the TV commentators who suggested why UD was having such a hard time getting the ball in, and it wasn't because the coach didn't drawup a good inbounds play. It had to do with the reason the players were not going to the ball. His opinion was that it was due to poor free throw shooting and the knew if they got the inbounds pass they'd be fouled and have to go to the line with the game on the line. So if may not have been poor inbounds play but rather poor coaoching on getting the players to shoot better free throws. No sure which or if any coach is assigned that duty, but in the end it falls on the head coach, one way or the other. So in that aspect we all agree, I think.

Makes sense. Scared players are hesitant to get involved. Nobody wants to be "that guy" to blow the game on the FT line. Thats unfortunate. You want 5 guys on the court that want to be "that guy" but don't have a problem when someone else is "that guy". I don't know whether the plays are drawn up but not executed, but you did hit on why they didn't work. Your 4 and 5 guys run away from the ball instead of the backside big man coming to the middle before the trap gets tight. You know it's coming and the guards need an out. That out can't be running away from the ball.

shocka43
08-29-2008, 10:29 AM
But I also remember the Baldwin Wallaces, the Gannons, etc.

Bill,

This was before my time, but.....Wasn't it pretty common for many of the current Mid-Majors in Ohio to play current D-III schools? BW, Bluffton, Muskingum, Witt, ONU, Mount.... I know the northern schools had runs with the Toledo's, Akron's, and BG's of the world. I can imagine that it was probably travel related back in the day, but there also wasn't as much of a separation between the divisions due to the lack of corporate deals like today. Goes to show how money driven the sport has become and the separation it has caused.

Chris R
08-29-2008, 11:54 AM
I believe we also had a 4-game home/home series with Biscayne is all opponents.

UDDoug
08-29-2008, 11:56 AM
Bill,

Home and home with Niagra with Calvin Murphy is one thing. We also played Southwest Louisiana with Bo Lamar (and when they were cheating like crazy and ranked 10th in the country). Those are good games.

But I remember playing at places like Niagra, Canisius and the like around the time I was in school (late 70s) and into the 80s. Those weren't good games. Certainly lesser games than going to Toledo or Akron, things we also did in the 70s and 80s. We definitely played home and homes with Eastern Kentucky. I remember driving to Richmond several times over the years to watch UD lose.

UDDoug
08-29-2008, 11:58 AM
I believe we also had a 4-game home/home series with Biscayne is all opponents.

Maybe it was only Biscayne, but I also think we've played at Rollins. Hey, it's Florida in the winter, a day at the beach, and an easier win than Miami or FSU (...oops, that last part didn't always work).

tman
08-29-2008, 01:39 PM
Of course UD played patsies in the good ole days.
I never, nor do I remember anyone else stating otherwise.

But I fail to see the point.
Back in the day UD played cupcake teams along with some very interesting and tough opponents.

What does biscayne have to do with anything? And I don't remember a four game home and home---why do you try to paint an ugly picture of UD during the 70's and eighties.
Why.
That doesn't make the present any more appealing>
Is that your point?

Or wait---he said biscayne--There you have it--proof that the schedule is much better now---r u kidding?

This all statrted with the simple comment that I made concerning the past 17 years vs the 17 years before that.
If you think the Ted K era schedule was tougher than what we faced with while Tom F was here-----you have absolutly no idea what your talking about. IMHO.

I was there for both era's----

Bill McPeek
08-29-2008, 03:05 PM
Bill,

This was before my time, but.....Wasn't it pretty common for many of the current Mid-Majors in Ohio to play current D-III schools? BW, Bluffton, Muskingum, Witt, ONU, Mount.... I know the northern schools had runs with the Toledo's, Akron's, and BG's of the world. I can imagine that it was probably travel related back in the day, but there also wasn't as much of a separation between the divisions due to the lack of corporate deals like today. Goes to show how money driven the sport has become and the separation it has caused.

I don't remember playing DIII teams at all back then. I don't rmember the term Mid-Major either. We didn't consider ourselves to be anything other than a major program. The first semester I was in school was only about 6 months from our loss to UCLA in the national championship game. We were pre season number 6 in the fall of the 67-68 season. We opened the Arena with a game against Bowling Green.

IAFlyer
08-29-2008, 03:10 PM
I didn't read where anyone said that our schedule is much tougher, better, more entertaining, than it was in the past.

What I read was that we had some good games on the schedule and some crappy games on the schedule. Sounds like what happens today. I bet if I dig deep enough into the archive, tman likely complained about last season's OOC schedule as well -- which frankly matches up pretty well with our past.

What I have also read is that EVERYONE wants the schedule to be better, but there are those that believe, in today's world of college basketball, we need to prove ourselves as winners in the NCAA tourney before that is going to happen on a regular basis.

So, our schedules are loaded with patsies with a few good games sprinkled in like in the past and our overall performance is mediocre - much like in the past.

Tell me why we have higher expectations again? (BTW, I have them too, but I am questioning my basis for those expectations)

Bill McPeek
08-29-2008, 03:11 PM
Bill,

Home and home with Niagra with Calvin Murphy is one thing. We also played Southwest Louisiana with Bo Lamar (and when they were cheating like crazy and ranked 10th in the country). Those are good games.

But I remember playing at places like Niagra, Canisius and the like around the time I was in school (late 70s) and into the 80s. Those weren't good games. Certainly lesser games than going to Toledo or Akron, things we also did in the 70s and 80s. We definitely played home and homes with Eastern Kentucky. I remember driving to Richmond several times over the years to watch UD lose.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. In fact I happen to agree with you.......the home schedule years ago wasn't exactly murderers row. Yes, we did have some "name" teams come into the Fieldhouse but by and large there weren't that many. Heck, DePaul was no powerhouse when I was in school, yet they had a name. The year we played Niagara, with Murphy, as I remember, there was only one game and that was at the Fieldhouse. And.....Xavier wasn't very good either!

Chris R
08-29-2008, 05:14 PM
But I fail to see the point.



i had no idea.

Furio
08-29-2008, 05:55 PM
i had no idea.


The Point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Point!
Click on the first reference.

dannardo
08-29-2008, 06:31 PM
Let me start by saying that I have great respect for Ted Kissell. And the below is not meant to dismiss him, but rather to give perspective. But, I think some different perspective might shed some light on how UD operates internally.

I was very close to the UD administration in the late 80's and early 90's. And many of the decisions and moves that are attributed to Ted Kissell - like the rejuvenation of soccer and volleyball - were under the contemplation of Tom Frericks. The UD administration - Mr. Frericks, Bro. Fitz, etc. - were laying the foundation for increased competitiveness well before Frericks' death and Kissell's hiring. Kissell was very solid in building upon a strategic foundation that Mr. Frericks had begun to lay out. And Ted Kissell did an admirable job in executing the plan and building momentum over the years.

The point is that UD was (and somewhat still is) very thorough and cautious in its planning. That caution may be why UD fell behind the times. Ted Kissell helped us catch up, arguably in a greater hurry than if Mr. Frericks had enacted the athletic program plan on his own.

It seems to me that UD always has a 'behind-the-scenes' plan. Whether it's a list of names for replacing a coach or a strategy for rebuilding a program, the planning always significantly precedes the execution. The credit of Mr. Kissell's career is decerved but the foundation of his success definitely was in place well before he was on the scene.

UACFlyer
08-29-2008, 09:10 PM
In response to dennardo,.....before Ted Kissell arrived UD didn't know the meaning of the word "plan" insofar as athletics are concerned. To suggest that there was some sort of plan in place prior to TK's arrival that TK then implemented is absurd.

When TK arrived he found a mess such that would have prevented him from accepting the AD position had he fully appreciated the situation. TK introduced the UD athletics division to the concept of planning, with which the university was totally unfamiliar. prior to his arrival.

dannardo
08-29-2008, 10:07 PM
Absurd? I am sorry I tried to give you the bigger picture and more of the whole story.
Is it credible to believe that a very young and mostly inexperienced Kissell, really little more than a tennis coach, was hired, rode into Dayton and almost immediately saved the day? That is appealing - in an ESPN SportsCenter kind of way - but not how it really went down. Again, Kissell was a key player and deserves accolades but he did not start from scratch. The politics and strategy were already being laid down and key sports - with low infrastructure costs - were targeted while Frericks was still on the job. Kissell was almost certainly more aggressive in implementation than the older Frericks might have been.

UACFlyer
08-29-2008, 10:47 PM
TK didn't start from "scratch"? "Scratch" would have been a big improvement over what TK was actually given to work with when he arrived at UD.

Tom Frerricks was a decent man, a person who contributed much to our University. But, he was a dying man, a factor that no doubt significantly affected his last years at the helm.

TK was a senior athletics administrator at Arizona when UD hired him; and in his mid-40s, hardly "very young";.... and most certainly not "inexperienced". Moreover, he did not "immediately save the day". Indeed, it took years to build an athletics program that could be considered respectable;....and many more years to achieve the top notch Div 1 program that we are now so proud of.

To suggest otherwise is, as I said, "absurd".

Furio
08-30-2008, 09:50 AM
Really doesn't matter if there were plans inplace because they should have been implemented 20 years prior to when TK showed up.
UD was a national power in basketball in the 50's and 60's. It ended there in large part to plans that were never acted on or chances never taken.

dannardo
08-30-2008, 09:58 AM
Furio - Thanks for trying to put an end to something that was turning into an immature squabble on my part. In truth, Kissell was a promising young administrator when he came to UD and did help improve UD's place in the college sports world.

longtimefan
08-30-2008, 10:36 AM
Really doesn't matter if there were plans inplace because they should have been implemented 20 years prior to when TK showed up.
UD was a national power in basketball in the 50's and 60's. It ended there in large part to plans that were never acted on or chances never taken.

Exactly. As stated many times, UD started going downhill in the 70's when they failed to get in on Eddie Einhorn's TV package and didn't join a conference. They went 10 years between NCAA appearances and many of the oldtimers and former players were getting restless. Can you imagine the reaction of this board if we went 10 years between NCAA appearances?

Avid Flyer
08-30-2008, 11:07 AM
Exactly. As stated many times, UD started going downhill in the 70's when they failed to get in on Eddie Einhorn's TV package and didn't join a conference. They went 10 years between NCAA appearances and many of the oldtimers and former players were getting restless. Can you imagine the reaction of this board if we went 10 years between NCAA appearances?

We'd have to place a few on suicide watch!!!

Atlantic 10
08-30-2008, 11:25 AM
Exactly. As stated many times, UD started going downhill in the 70's when they failed to get in on Eddie Einhorn's TV package and didn't join a conference. They went 10 years between NCAA appearances and many of the oldtimers and former players were getting restless. Can you imagine the reaction of this board if we went 10 years between NCAA appearances?
This is correct and it has hurt the program big time, if we did jump at the chance back then, we would be talking about something else

Avid Flyer
08-30-2008, 04:06 PM
This is correct and it has hurt the program big time, if we did jump at the chance back then, we would be talking about something else

As much as I liked TF and DD, I remember a televised game against one of our rivals when they called a TV timeout for a commercial. DH was livid as we had just gotten the momentum and it was stole by a TV ad. But hey that was the way the national tv games were played. DH didn't want anything to do with that sports package and like they've already said, it put the program back years.

We are now so very close. Problem is that whle we have rebuilt, X has reloaded. And I might add in ways that would have many on here ranting about.

John R
08-30-2008, 06:15 PM
As much as I liked TF and DD, I remember a televised game against one of our rivals when they called a TV timeout for a commercial. DH was livid as we had just gotten the momentum and it was stole by a TV ad. But hey that was the way the national tv games were played. DH didn't want anything to do with that sports package and like they've already said, it put the program back years.

We are now so very close. Problem is that whle we have rebuilt, X has reloaded. And I might add in ways that would have many on here ranting about.

Who is DH?

Avid Flyer
08-30-2008, 06:33 PM
The designated hitter of course. Okay I corrected it one place and forgot the other. Funny thing is I saw someone else do it and asked the same question then typed it myself. So guess D is for Dono and H is for her:rolleyes:

Who is DH?

John R
08-30-2008, 06:50 PM
The designated hitter of course. Okay I corrected it one place and forgot the other. Funny thing is I saw someone else do it and asked the same question then typed it myself. So guess D is for Dono and H is for her:rolleyes:

Thanks Avid.LOL

Gazoo
09-02-2008, 11:02 AM
I also might add.---for those of us that paid attention---yes, the Wright injury hurt Dayton.
It should not have ruined the season. The facts are ---the coaching staff was UNABLE to counter a defense first brought about by coach Ford, the UMASS coach. And then duplicated by every coach after that. WE lost games we should not have---and I don't believe it would have mattered who played--this coaching staff did not have answers for it.


So blame injuries----it certainly hurt---but there is a bigger picture. Perhaps it was personell,, I don't know-----but to say the only reason last year ended as poor as it did was because Chris Wright got hurt---is not telling the whole story--.

I'm glad I don't have to answer your post since you did it for me. Or at least, 1 of the voices in your head did.

Do you read the stuff you write or just throw it out there and see what sticks to the wall??

Jim Paxson was one of the greatest college players Ive ever seen. Without the ball he was as good as anyone who's ever played and Cincinnati knew it. AS Paxson moved without the ball Cincy pounded on him. Paxson left the game in the second half with a shoulder injury.

It was end of a very promising season. Paxson was unable to play in the next games. It sucked the air out of the Flyers---once they got to Florida, their mind set was flat out terrible. They had lost their leader, the All-American.


Here, I'll provide the space for the response that ignores the quality of the player, the role on the team, the drive in practice, the "air sucked out of the team", and all the other things CW added. . . and let you focus on how old he was.

. . . freshman . . . freshman . . . freshman . . . freshman . . but he was only a freshman . . .

Gazoo
09-02-2008, 11:10 AM
The first year UD played ND, Marquette, Depaul twice each year was 84/85. That arrangement lasted for the most part until UD was left out of CUSA. Don't make it sound like it was a long term arrangement. In fact, UD did not play Marquette a single time in the 70s, and played ND once each year. There were other times UD and Depaul would play twice.

Here are some actual home schedules for a four year period.

79/80
Ashland, Cal Poly, Biscayne, Eastern Ky, Pacific, Iowa, Baldwin Wallace, Miami, Cincinnati, Howard, New Orleans, Memphis, Southern, Loyola, Drexel

80/81
Rider, San Francisco, Western Ky, Michigan, Niagra, Mississippi, Toledo, Yale, Miami, Marquette, Butler, Alcorn State, Canisius, Duquesne, Xavier, DePaul

81/82
Baldwin Wallace, Old Dominion, Hofstra, Florida State, Miami, Cincinnati, Loyola, Jersey City State, St Louis, Providence, Detroit, LaSalle, Akron, New Orleans, Eastern Kentucky

82/83
Otterbein, Iona, Xavier, Minnesota, Toledo, Western Ky, Rice, Army, Miami, Rider, Drexel, Duquesne, Temple, Butler, Marquette, Long Island, Depaul

The point isn't to say the schedule stunk then and is better now. There were good games and bad games then. Probably more top level games, although Memphis, Mississippi, Florida State then aren't what they would be now.

Rather, the point is to correct the misperception you perpetuate by throwing out the good names that were on the schedule without balancing it with the dogs. During the 70s and 80s UD had home and home arrangements with the likes of Eastern Kentucky, Toledo, Bowling Green, Iona, Canisius, and Niagra.

And if you take this as being a statement that things are great now and stunk then as you do nearly all responses, you couldn't be more wrong. There is more agreement with the sentiment that things aren't as good as they should be than you may think. Rather, the volumes of responses are because you almost always get the facts wrong and distort reality by presenting unbalanced information more often than any politician.

Doug, I gave tman that assignment many times over the last few years but he always shirks it because he knows then he won't be able to brag about how far the schedule has fallen under TK. He just keeps saying "I don't accept homework assignments."

There you have it. For review:

No one is perfectly happy with the performance in the last 10 years.
No one is perfectly happy with BG's game coaching.
No one is perfectly happy with the schedule.
No one is perfectly happy with our post season accomplishments recently.
No one is saying that the schedule now is better than in the past--just that it's not much worse.
No one is saying that TK made perfect decisions on every topic.
No one is saying we would have been NCAA champs is CW would have been healthy.
No one is saying things are at a pinnacle of UD hoops.

Only certain ridiculous posters make such statements. Things are getting better. We all wish it happened faster. It's not a perfect world.

"Back in my day we used to play Pitt at home, Louisville at home, _aveir and URI at home when they were ranked in the top 25, Cincinnat at home, I remember playing Duke and North Carolina when they were among the most powerful teams in the country. . . " I'll just ignore that that statement was only relevant over the course of 3 or 4 years.

IAFlyer
09-02-2008, 12:16 PM
There you have it. For review:

No one is perfectly happy with the performance in the last 10 years.
No one is perfectly happy with BG's game coaching.
No one is perfectly happy with the schedule.
No one is perfectly happy with our post season accomplishments recently.
No one is saying that the schedule now is better than in the past--just that it's not much worse.
No one is saying that TK made perfect decisions on every topic.
No one is saying we would have been NCAA champs is CW would have been healthy.
No one is saying things are at a pinnacle of UD hoops.



Bingo! Although we see things improving, I am still trying to reconcile why my personal expectations are higher than our historical performance (over the last 35+ years, even).

College B-Ball Fan
09-02-2008, 01:49 PM
...are probably higher because you don't really know what the H*** your talking about when it comes to running the UD Basketball program. Thirty five years and running huh! You guys kill me---"your personal expectations"----for what? higher than whose? BJ/TK/mine?

Who cares about your "personal expectations"? I wonder if any one you know "meets your personal expectations" or if the rest of life dissappoints you the way that Flyers basketball clearly does! YOUR job, your kids, your other sportsd teams? Someone be sure to mention to Dr. Curran, TK or BG or any of the other folks who have come through athletics over the past 35-40 years that one of out "great" fans from out west of us continues to be dissappointed with the basketball program here at UD-------WOW! Glad you've stuck around to tell us that despite the program failing to meet your expectations during the last 35 years!

Gazoo
09-02-2008, 03:07 PM
This post brought to you by the Alzheimer's association, reminding you to think of us on those days you really just can't focus on what you're reading.

longtimefan
09-02-2008, 04:19 PM
...are probably higher because you don't really know what the H*** your talking about when it comes to running the UD Basketball program. Thirty five years and running huh! You guys kill me---"your personal expectations"----for what? higher than whose? BJ/TK/mine?

Who cares about your "personal expectations"? I wonder if any one you know "meets your personal expectations" or if the rest of life dissappoints you the way that Flyers basketball clearly does! YOUR job, your kids, your other sportsd teams? Someone be sure to mention to Dr. Curran, TK or BG or any of the other folks who have come through athletics over the past 35-40 years that one of out "great" fans from out west of us continues to be dissappointed with the basketball program here at UD-------WOW! Glad you've stuck around to tell us that despite the program failing to meet your expectations during the last 35 years!

Wow, someone got up on the wrong side of the bed today, or the meds just haven't kicked in yet. I think all Flyer fans have expectations of where they would like the program to be, and I would be willing to bet that 99% of them are not being met. I would also be willing to bet that the expectations of TK, BG, and Dr. Curran are not being met.

IAFlyer
09-02-2008, 05:46 PM
...are probably higher because you don't really know what the H*** your talking about when it comes to running the UD Basketball program. Thirty five years and running huh! You guys kill me---"your personal expectations"----for what? higher than whose? BJ/TK/mine?

Who cares about your "personal expectations"? I wonder if any one you know "meets your personal expectations" or if the rest of life dissappoints you the way that Flyers basketball clearly does! YOUR job, your kids, your other sportsd teams? Someone be sure to mention to Dr. Curran, TK or BG or any of the other folks who have come through athletics over the past 35-40 years that one of out "great" fans from out west of us continues to be dissappointed with the basketball program here at UD-------WOW! Glad you've stuck around to tell us that despite the program failing to meet your expectations during the last 35 years!

Nice attack. Feel free to PM me if you want to tell me how you really feel.

I was writing/speaking more as Longtimefan put it - a large percentage of us have expectations of sweet 16/elite 8 type runs on a regular basis. Is it achievable? I think so. Has it been our history? No, that was my point, but I clearly didn't present it very well.

Further, I fail to see your point that since I moved out of Ohio 11 years ago, that suddenly my input is no longer valid.

FlyerYouBetcha
09-02-2008, 06:24 PM
I may be one of the few people satisfied with what our men's basketball program has become. It's a clean program for the most part, has some good young men playing the Dayton way, has a clean coach, has popped into the Top 25 and even reached No 14, and gives us some great wins. We have gone to the NCAA and NIT quite a few times since the O'Barf years, and have played competitively in those games. We just came off a year reaching No 14, and winning two NIT games against good ball clubs, including Illinois State on the road. I enjoy Flyers basketball. I basically am satisfied with the program and content. If the team wins more games this year than last, I will be happy. If it wins the same number, I will be happy. Chris Wright is a beast. Just having him on the team is a great joy. It isn't necessary for us to compare ourselves with _avier or Wright State or The Ohio State or Miami or anyone else. What we have already is great.

Just my two cents.

shocka43
09-02-2008, 09:26 PM
...are probably higher because you don't really know what the H*** your talking about when it comes to running the UD Basketball program. Thirty five years and running huh! You guys kill me---"your personal expectations"----for what? higher than whose? BJ/TK/mine?

Who cares about your "personal expectations"? I wonder if any one you know "meets your personal expectations" or if the rest of life dissappoints you the way that Flyers basketball clearly does! YOUR job, your kids, your other sportsd teams? Someone be sure to mention to Dr. Curran, TK or BG or any of the other folks who have come through athletics over the past 35-40 years that one of out "great" fans from out west of us continues to be dissappointed with the basketball program here at UD-------WOW! Glad you've stuck around to tell us that despite the program failing to meet your expectations during the last 35 years!

I know this post didn't meet expectations for what is considered normal around here. Glad I wasted 30 seconds of my day trying to decipher that one.

UDBrian
09-02-2008, 09:52 PM
I think all Flyer fans have expectations of where they would like the program to be, and I would be willing to bet that 99% of them are not being met. I would also be willing to bet that the expectations of TK, BG, and Dr. Curran are not being met.

That is a very good summation. I don't think BG is in coaching to make the elite eight of the NIT. It was a step in the right direction. It is good that UD runs a clean program and that the players aren't a bunch of thugs. But, you need to win once in a while.

The tide has changed and it is just beginning to gather momentum imho. Let's hope the next tide change takes as long as this one did.

tman
09-03-2008, 08:09 AM
Let me start by saying that I have great respect for Ted Kissell. And the below is not meant to dismiss him, but rather to give perspective. But, I think some different perspective might shed some light on how UD operates internally.

I was very close to the UD administration in the late 80's and early 90's. And many of the decisions and moves that are attributed to Ted Kissell - like the rejuvenation of soccer and volleyball - were under the contemplation of Tom Frericks. The UD administration - Mr. Frericks, Bro. Fitz, etc. - were laying the foundation for increased competitiveness well before Frericks' death and Kissell's hiring. Kissell was very solid in building upon a strategic foundation that Mr. Frericks had begun to lay out. And Ted Kissell did an admirable job in executing the plan and building momentum over the years.

The point is that UD was (and somewhat still is) very thorough and cautious in its planning. That caution may be why UD fell behind the times. Ted Kissell helped us catch up, arguably in a greater hurry than if Mr. Frericks had enacted the athletic program plan on his own.

It seems to me that UD always has a 'behind-the-scenes' plan. Whether it's a list of names for replacing a coach or a strategy for rebuilding a program, the planning always significantly precedes the execution. The credit of Mr. Kissell's career is decerved but the foundation of his success definitely was in place well before he was on the scene.

Thanks for this post.
Many here have NO clue what so ever as to what was going on at UD during those years.
Here's a guy with inside information---and what did many here do--ignore it.

This is a popular site to bad mouth Tom F. If you say anything critical about Ted K, you could be banned. But feel free to distort the great Work of Tom F.

Let me touch on a couple of things--
It was easier at one time to make the NCAA tourny as an independent (for Dayton).
It gave the U exposure since UD was one of the big four independents . Many of those games were on national TV for example.
UD did not share its portion of the tourny take (money)
There were numerous indies at that point and the NCAA ,in order to keep basketball alive for those indies nearly always took three sometimes four of them. At that point it made great sense to stay independent.

All the while Tom was looking to get UD into a (GREAT) conference and he worked hard to construct that dream conference himself.

You do not join a conference for the sake of joining a conference. In other words--joining a bad conference was NOT in the best interest of the U.

The TV situation---is too much to go into---its greatly overstated and grossly distorted. If you think thats all it took to get into the big east----you miss it by a mile.

The upgrade in sports programs at UD was well set into place long before Tom left. Ive said it a thousand times--HERE YOU HAVE AN INSIDER TELLING YOU THE SAME THING---.

Tom could only do as much as the U would allow and afford---he better than anyone understood UD's issues.
Tom was going to be the President of the NCAA---that should tell you a little something about his abilities.

Tom has a buliding named for him on Campus--and for good reason.
There's another building Tom is responsible for at UD. Its called UD Arena. HE BUILT IT.

Why some posters bash Tom--I don't know. The insults come from mostly Ted K supporters.
I think many HERE try to tear Tom down in order to make Ted look better---its a bad idea.
Tom's great work ended many years ago--He's been gone a long time. Maybe you should look elsewhere for blame on why Ted's 17 years have not been as productive as they should have.

Sea Bass
09-03-2008, 10:07 AM
Looking back over the end of the tenure of Mr. Frericks his major mistake was appointing a committee to do HIS job ... hire the coach that was going to succeed Donoher. If he felt the UD community was going to be so fractured by the firing that it needed a committee to build unity then obviously there was a problem.

Kissell inherited a basketball program that Frericks and O'Brien had buried ... and he got lucky right off the bat when Deane saved him from continuing the disaster.

IAFlyer
09-03-2008, 02:01 PM
From my perspective - Tom Frericks did great things during his tenure. There were also things that were done/not done that Tom would like to re-do. There were things that I am sure he would have liked to have a "do-over" on - as would any of us with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

My Bottom Line - Tom Frericks did more good than not as our AD, but being human, was not perfect (who is?). Ted Kissell did more good than not as our AD, but being human, was not perfect either.

longtimefan
09-03-2008, 06:09 PM
Why some posters bash Tom--I don't know. The insults come from mostly Ted K supporters.
I think many HERE try to tear Tom down in order to make Ted look better---its a bad idea.

Does anyone think tman even reads his own posts? NOBODY on here has "bashed" Mr. Frericks. A few of us have mentioned a couple of things we think he should have done that he didn't do. That is not "bashing." The two things that I brought up have been mentioned by many people more knowledgeable than I - local sportswriters, for example. Many people over the years have said we should have gotten in on the ground floor of the Eddie Einhorn TV deal. And many have said we should have joined a conference sooner than we did. This is not "bashing." I think looking back at these two issues in the twilight of his career, Mr. Frericks probably would have agreed.

If you really want to see what "bashing" is all about, tman, simply read 99% of your posts concerning TK.

UDDoug
09-04-2008, 08:17 AM
This is a popular site to bad mouth Tom F.

Dang, missed it again (the point).

longtimefan
09-04-2008, 08:35 AM
The TV situation---is too much to go into---its greatly overstated and grossly distorted. If you think thats all it took to get into the big east----you miss it by a mile.

Another thing that cracks me up about tman is that he whines and moans and groans and bashes TK for not getting us on TV enough, and goes on and on and on about how important TV exposure is. But then when it is pointed about that Mr. Frericks passed on a huge opportunity to get UD in on the ground floor of a very significant TV package, he acts like it was no big deal. I wonder if he ever reads what he writes???

rollo
09-04-2008, 10:25 AM
Is it possible that tman is a female? (S)he complains and moans about everything ad nauseum and never offers solutions. (S)he holds grudges and seems to get PO'd once every 3 or 4 weeks. Idle threats (never coming back) are predictable and worthless. Emotions and drama everywhere!

Same w/ BB33.

Just asking:D

smitch425
09-04-2008, 10:38 AM
Is it possible that tman is a female? (S)he complains and moans about everything ad nauseum and never offers solutions. (S)he holds grudges and seems to get PO'd once every 3 or 4 weeks. Idle threats (never coming back) are predictable and worthless. Emotions and drama everywhere!

Same w/ BB33.

Just asking:D

I should probably be offended by all of this, but it's kinda funny:D

tman
09-04-2008, 11:13 AM
Is it possible that tman is a female? (S)he complains and moans about everything ad nauseum and never offers solutions. (S)he holds grudges and seems to get PO'd once every 3 or 4 weeks. Idle threats (never coming back) are predictable and worthless. Emotions and drama everywhere!

Same w/ BB33.

Just asking:D

LOL
You're asking me if I'm a female?
Dude---you have the gayest avitar on the planet.
Talk about he she.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Besides, I like that YMCA song you guys love so much.------ Young man--do do do do do do i said (wait a minute---no thats not good) I changed my mind--I prefer buckcherry.

Here's how it usually goes down.
I have an opinion.
Five posters reply.
I point out the flaws of their thinking.
They come back with-----tman this and tman that---tmans a woman blah blah blah--

What do you expect---they have no comeback. I'm right again.
SO they go off topic.-(maybe he's a woman)---was that the topic?

Heres a guy with inside info---he knows whats going on--its not made up in his mind.
And its just as Ive said. Its what Ive been telling some of you for a long time.

Look---- the Ted thing is over. I'm happy. A new era is about to begin. The guy was feeling heat and it kept getting hotter and hotter over the last couple of years. And he decided to get out---thank goodness. Plus, I think the guy retired last year--did you see this years schedule?

So I knew I would read in the papers (and here)-- how Ted invented the wheel. How he saved us all. How he saved UD basketball. I knew that the ---Ted forces UD to compete again-- threads were comming. Thats OK.
Its time to move on.

WE will see what this new guy is made of in a short manner. The next schedule---he's responsible for. Will he want his own coaches and people in place? Has the scheduling model changed? What changes may he bring about?

And if he does a great job--lets all celebrate. We have to give him time. But if he hurts our program, if he performs poorly, lets not all pretend its something it isn't just because he's on the payroll at UD. That could hurt your program for years, 17 years.

I wish him,,much like I do and did for Ted K, the best of luck.
Its an excitting time for UD basketball. New AD--New recruits that are very talented.
I hope we turn the corner.
I LOVE UD.


UD basketball is Dayton. Its the largest social and sporting event that takes place in this town---wouldn't you think that by now the DDN would have interviewed this guy.


Mr. new AD. Do yourself and UD fans a great service by permitting UDpride to interview you. If the guys running this show (udpride) are for it, I think this is the perfect place to grant one of them a first interview.

So how about it?

UDDoug
09-04-2008, 12:13 PM
LOL
Here's how it usually goes down.
I have an opinion.
Five posters reply.
I point out the flaws of their thinking.
They come back with-----tman this and tman that---tmans a woman blah blah blah--


I wonder if that's happened anywhere other than the distorted reality of your mind. Most of this thread has been about pointing out how your "facts" are wrong.

Same as it's ever been.

Glen Clark
09-04-2008, 03:54 PM
I should probably be offended by all of this, but it's kinda funny:D

Come on, be offended - it's so much more fun! ;)
What's a little misogynism among friends?

Gazoo
09-05-2008, 01:42 PM
LOL
You're asking me if I'm a female?
Dude---you have the gayest avitar on the planet.
Talk about he she.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Besides, I like that YMCA song you guys love so much.------ Young man--do do do do do do i said (wait a minute---no thats not good) I changed my mind--I prefer buckcherry.

Here's how it usually goes down.
I have an opinion.
Five posters reply.
I point out the flaws of their thinking.
They come back with-----tman this and tman that---tmans a woman blah blah blah--

What do you expect---they have no comeback. I'm right again.
SO they go off topic.-(maybe he's a woman)---was that the topic?

Heres a guy with inside info---he knows whats going on--its not made up in his mind.
And its just as Ive said. Its what Ive been telling some of you for a long time.

Look---- the Ted thing is over. I'm happy. A new era is about to begin. The guy was feeling heat and it kept getting hotter and hotter over the last couple of years. And he decided to get out---thank goodness. Plus, I think the guy retired last year--did you see this years schedule?

So I knew I would read in the papers (and here)-- how Ted invented the wheel. How he saved us all. How he saved UD basketball. I knew that the ---Ted forces UD to compete again-- threads were comming. Thats OK.
Its time to move on.

WE will see what this new guy is made of in a short manner. The next schedule---he's responsible for. Will he want his own coaches and people in place? Has the scheduling model changed? What changes may he bring about?

And if he does a great job--lets all celebrate. We have to give him time. But if he hurts our program, if he performs poorly, lets not all pretend its something it isn't just because he's on the payroll at UD. That could hurt your program for years, 17 years.

I wish him,,much like I do and did for Ted K, the best of luck.
Its an excitting time for UD basketball. New AD--New recruits that are very talented.
I hope we turn the corner.
I LOVE UD.


UD basketball is Dayton. Its the largest social and sporting event that takes place in this town---wouldn't you think that by now the DDN would have interviewed this guy.


Mr. new AD. Do yourself and UD fans a great service by permitting UDpride to interview you. If the guys running this show (udpride) are for it, I think this is the perfect place to grant one of them a first interview.

So how about it?

So many apply here I couldn't choose just one. We should vote.

:nuts:

:fit:

:wtfsign: