Controversial shot? What's the rule?
 

Okay, I looked at the prayer shot that banked in, stopped it as close as I could many times to see if he got it off in time. What I believe I saw (and this is just pure bad luck for it to all play out this way) was that the clock was turning to zero when he still had it in his hand and fully turned zero when it MIGHT have left his hand. Is a clock in the process of turning zero the end of the shot clock or is it when the zero is complete on the clock. This is hard to explain but the one is almost faded while the zero is fading in. I still think in all probability he might have had skin on ball when it turned zero, but can't say for sure.

If we had made just a few more free throws that shot wouldn't have been the difference maker! Or, if our guards knew how to get the ball inside to Cunningham we would have won in regulation. He either makes a layup or gets fouled!!!

Yes, even though Crutcher got off a good shot, he is a freshman and I think down low to Cunningham would have been a better option!

I know you are looking for a rule clarification...

But had you pressured the ball and at least got a hand up...the shot doesn't go in.

That's nice. So the rule is?

Rollo may be able to answer.. For EOR it is the light on the backboard.

I don't think anyone is using the shot as the sole reason we lost or why the shot went in. But for crying out loud, if a guy has to toss a shot fading sideways away from the basket from 35 feet out with his shooting arm motion going from right to left, you can't blame the defense. That's the shot I want to give up any day, hour, minute second. It was pure luck and DD did nothing wrong there.

https://twitter.com/DavidPJablonski/...02947424526344

DD had pressure on the ball was just not trying to make a silly foul at 40' that you would have tore him apart for...

It was at zero clearly and still in his hand. Refs missed it. A-10 is low mid-major in quality of streaming, that is what we get. Audio never syncs with video. This is basic high-school stuff. So don't blame the refs, blame the A-10 as s horrific TV/Streaming so refs did not get the same angle Jablonski gave all of us.

But doesn't matter, make some Free Throws (13-22 or 59% not going to get it done on the road) or either Davis comes to play (5-26 from the game shooting) or play Pipkins tough in 1H and this is easy win for Dayton.

Since the shot clock has no tenth of seconds, my interpretation would be full zero on the clock.
I also defer to Rollo on this without looking up the NCAA rule book.

Did the refs even have a video of shot? I didn’t see them with a stopwatch so I assumed they did but who knows.
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If we had pressured more as the ball was going into the back court, he never would have had time to get across the mid court line to take that shot.

Until it shows zero, there is more than zero, so time left.

this...

We do nothing else other than make our FTs and Pipkins' heave is just a footnote. Had 49 minutes to win so any 35ft nonsense wouldn't matter.

The shot clock can be at 29.1 seconds and still show 30. Likewise, the shot clock would still be at 1 second at 0.1 seconds.
IMO, the clock was at zero and it was still in his hands. However, when I hear the horn the ball was already released.
The NCAA rules state that the horn is the deciding factor not the clock.
"Rule 11-2.1.b.4 states in part that officials may use instant replay to "Determine if the ball was released on a try for goal before the sounding of the shot clock horn when the try is successful." This rule can result in an instant replay review in several distinct situations. First, if the official waits until the try is successful and then blows his whistle immediately, he may use instant replay to determine if the ball was released prior to the sounding of the shot clock horn. Second, if the official blows his whistle immediately following the release of the ball for the try because he believes there was a shot clock violation and the shot is unsuccessful, the ball becomes dead and the violation must stand without further review. However, if the try is successful, the ball also becomes dead when the try in flight ends and the official may use instant replay to determine if the try was released prior to the sounding of the shot clock horn."

Okay, so the horn being the deciding factor, the refs ruled correctly right? Now the argument could be why the horn was so late but not that the Refs missed it both live and replay.

Just curious, why are posters using this thread to explain that other things cost us the game. I agree, they always do. This is rules question. And if we lost also because Jordan Pierce purposely stomped on Baby D's shooting hand prior to the start of game, sure, I'd like to know that, but it sure doesn't fit this thread.

From the NCAA rule book:


Art. 3.
In games when an official uses instant replay to review a potential shot-clock violation as in Rule 11-2-1-b
4, the official shall determine whether a violation occurred by the sounding of the shot clock horn. If the shot clock horn is not audible, the official shall use the reading of zeroes on the shot clock to determine if a shot clock violation occurred. When definitive information is unattainable with the use of the monitor, the original call stands.

---------------
It would seem that the horn is the first determinate. However, by implication, if the shot clock shows a definitive reading of zeros then the shot clock can be used.

What does EOR mean?

In that case I'll stick to the opinion that the Refs made the right call because what I saw, or more exact, didn't see, was anything definitive on replay other than the buzzer went off long after the shot. Somehow ruechalgrin did see something definitive but I have to question if he had more to drink than I did or if he was watching with his red and blue glasses on?

Just a guess: End Of Regulation.
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In that case, I have 2 questions, out of sheer, morbid curiosity:
1) Did the replay that the officials used have audio, or video only? And
2) Is the horn synched with the clock, or controlled manually?

If the answer to (1) is “video only”, then they made the wrong call. But if the replay had audio, they may have gotten the call right.
If the answer to (2) is “synched”, then it is what it is. But if the horn is controlled manually, then the home team will always have a chance to do some “cooking” in situations like this.
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If the horn is manually controlled than it will always be late.

To answer -

1) Video only. You never see the refs put on headphones for sound. Therefore, if it is permissible to do a video review for a shot clock violation - and it is - the only reason to do so would be to look for video (shot clock) verification. There is no audio during a video review.

2. Automatically synced

I just think that due to poor camera and video work, the refs had no video of the shooter and shot clock simultaneously. Certainly, nothing that was shown on TV. If they did, based on Jablonski's video, the shot would obviously have not counted.

Of course there is never a problem with the shot clock...like at the start of the game.

Not every gym has red lights around the backboard which is why the rule quoted above refers to 'audible'. Where lighted boards are available, you go with the lights. In games I ref, where lights are available, I don't even listen for the horn because in a lot of cases, the gym is so loud you can't hear it.

I had a game last week where the 'automatic horn' button was turned off! It's a question I always ask the scorekeeper to make sure they aren't doing the horn themselves. In this case she turned it off so the announcer could get the ball rolling on intros and the National Anthem and then forgot to turn it on. I've reffed many games where they turn if off during full timeouts because both teams are back on the court after 30 seconds and everyone is ready to play...so the auto horn button it turned off, she hits the horn to signal 'play' and forgets to turn it back on when the ball is inbounded. The lighted backboard will always work...the horn, 99% of the time. But I don't want to be the official on the court in charge of making a last second shot good/no-good without BOTH working. Which is why you always ask the clock operator to make sure the auto horn is 'on'...even during the game.

I don't understand this: if they had done this or if they had done that they would have won. The point is: it came down to the one play.

What they should have done (and what they may have done) was measure the time from the inbounds to the time he got the shot off with a stop watch. There was only 7 seconds for them to shoot the ball after the inbounds. Then no need to worry about the camera angle.

I never saw any replays on the TV that could even help with determining whether he got it off or not, so I have no idea what replays and angles the refs were reviewing.

I believe the rule on the “zero” on the shot clock is that when it hits zero, it is deemed fully zero and is the point of violation.

I am simply thankful that this shot happened against a 10-13 Flyer team and not a bubble Flyer team or one fighting for a protected seed in the NCAA tournament.

FWIW, Larry - on radio - said the shot was legal.
FWIW II, if it takes 5 minutes and 10 camera angles...it's close enough to count.

You are correct. I misspoke regarding the hand in the face, as I never replayed it. DD had pressure on the shot, I still think the actual lose ball should have been contested. Guy didn't have to work hard to get the loose ball. That gets contested, I don't think it works out the way it did. It was a prayer shot as it was.

Either way, it isn't what lost the game. I have always said that if you leave the game in the officials hands, you are going to be disappointed.

I have seen refs put on headphones for reviews at games. Many times it's probably to talk to the video guy, but review of sound can be available. Why would the NCAA have a rule for audio review of the horn if, as you say, it's video only? The rules clearly states to review audio for the horn first and if it's not available to review the video.

We should've known...
 

...from the opening tip that a monitor/horn/lighted backboard would be involved in the outcome of this game (I do not subscribe that the slop shot cost us the game mind you. Listening to the WHIO feed while watching, Larry emphasized after the clock fiasco in the very beginning (and subsequent problems after that), that UMass is THE WORST facility in the A10 when it comes to such things. There is just no attention to detail when it comes to the scorer's table, etc. Are we spoiled at UD Arena because of the many NCAA games hosted? Heck yeah! But every other A10 arena gets it, too...even Fordham!

I now return you to your "why we should be in the Big East thread"...

True. Either DD thought it was going to be over-and-back or he was just lazy. He didn't go after the ball with any effort.

Well, if he goes after the ball and doesn't get it, he then loses his man. I'm guessing protocol in that situation is to stay in front of your man.

Seriously though, with all the swiss cheese defense we've seen out of this team, I can't believe anyone is pointing the finger at Baby D. because his man got off a shot put type of shot off 40 feet and right of the basket while his momentum was taking him right. And also close enough that we still can't say definitively whether the shot beat the shot clock. It's this simple though, there was more a chance of Baby D getting called for a phantom foul than that shot going in.

I never weighed in on this earlier but I was at the game and although its hard in live action to make a determination here's what I saw/said. As soon as the refs blew the whistle I said to my wife there is no way he got it off by the time the clock hit zero but he did get it off before the horn sounded. So if the horn is the determining factor then I'd say they got it right. UMass probably needs to have their equipment calibrated.

PS - Such a shame to see a more than half empty arena with about 50 students total at the game. Their new video boards are incredible too. Also noticed much less of a UD presence this year than in the past. I guess that's what losing does to both teams.

I may be wrong but when a clock with no tenths of a second are used, when the clock shows 00 there is still 0.9 seconds left, hence the delay between 00 and the horn.