A10-MWC Challenge
 

Jon Rothstein just tweeted that the A10 and MWC are in discussions for an annual challenge between the conferences. The MWC's agreement with the MVC ends after this season.

MWC current basketball teams:
Nevada
Boise State
New Mexico
San Diego St
Fresno St
Wyoming
UNLV
Utah State
Air Force
Colorado St
San José St

That would be good fit for both conferences. I like it!

Hallelujah! I'll take it!!!

But only if it replaces a buy game, and we always play on the road, right? :)

Yes!!!!!:D:duh:

great news, takes the pressure off of Neil to find one H/H series every year

Interesting to see if this comes about if they make up for Nevada skipping out on their game at Rhode Island this year

:banana:Yes

this won't start this year, I assume rhody and nevada will continue

I don't recall San Jose St. as a member of the MWC. Is that new?

They joined when the WAC broke up. I believe that was 2012.

Awesome! I’m a fan of the MWC. Great fit.

Jon Rothstein
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Sources: The Atlantic 10 and Mountain West could finalize an annual challenge in the next few weeks. Talks between both sides continue to progress.

Awesome News

Boise State probably deserves to get Dayton at their house after getting sent to Dayton to play a true away game, play-in game in which they suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of Jordan Sibert.

Though Dayton fans do generally speaking enjoy potatoes, I feel like they’d probably prefer to play elsewhere in years where the Mountain West was hosting. Vegas — Dayton fans would go from LOWD to LEWD (I mean can you imagine) or San Diego — hello weather — come to mind.
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Sounds like I'm in the minority here....this doesn't really excite me at all.

Now if they would play the games in Vegas, that would be something I would hop on board for.

This would be a great relationship. MWC is a solid basketball conference, and this gives UD exposure west of the Mississippi. Of the 11 MWC schools, 9 of them have good programs that draw fans.

At a minimum, it may take the place of some no name school from the south to drive a bit of interest in the games.

Ditto this. Bet on Dayton having to play at Boise State. The organizers won’t overlook that kind of storyline.

Just because I can. Maybe the cold-bloodiest trey even drained by a Flyer. Loudest Ive ever heard the Arena. String music.

+ YouTube Video

I guess if you wish hard enough they can actually come true. This makes so much sense it’s almost comical. Good programs. Name recognition. Comparable league fighting for the same precious at-large bids. Duke and Carolina ain’t showing up. Playing the likes of Boston College at the Arena doesn’t generate excitement nor does it help advance to The Dance.

Git ‘er done!

Just from memory, Boise, San Diego State, UNLV, Nevada, and New Mexico have been pretty consistently good.

To a lesser extent, Air Force, Utah State, and Colorado State have had some success through the years.

Seems like Fresno State, San Jose State, and Wyoming bring up the rear.

Buster,

I see your perspective, in some sense, it's not that grand, but it can't be any worse than playing middling SEC games. The program once had a dozen games per season with local, in-state, or regional schools and/or Midwest Catholic school rivals; but now nothing like that at all.

To that end, Beat Duquesne and hope a fan bus is chartered to visit one of the reservation areas where Elizabeth Warren has relatives at...Mountain West Here Come the Flyers.

Remember that. Was Yuge!

wasn't there a big block or steal after that , or was that another last second game a year or two before?

They should make Nevada play at Rhode Island in the first year of this in order to make up for Nevada bailing on their game this year at URI.

If URI wanted to play Nevada, they shouldn't have agreed to such a low buyout. It happens all the time in college football, but games are scheduled so far in advance nobody seems to care.

How can one forget Dyshawn Pierre rebound with one hand, pulls up one side of shorts, takes a drbible to switch hands, pulls up other side of shorts, while coming up court.

Oh, and the looks on faces of Boise State Cheerleaders, totally priceless.

Last year, Nevada had a cancellation policy for some of its opponents of $100k, but only $50k for the URI game.

URI honored the game, so, sorry, but I disagree, Nevada should have honored the game at URI.

I would think that cancellation policies would only ever get used as part of buy games, not games as part of home-and-home series.

This is the first time that I have ever heard of a team reneging on a home-and-home series game.

https://www.rgj.com/story/sports/col...000/806706001/:


Perks: Rhode Island gets 50 complimentary tickets; refs assigned by MW; $50,000 cancellation policy

Kyle Davis guarding the last second shot (announcers saying it should have been a foul)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxbH9-ITbWg

Fine, so your argument is it's not fair that Nevada did that? Again, URI agreed to that low buyout amount. Don't get me wrong, it was a d**k move, but they followed the terms of the contract. URI should have negotiated a larger buyout or gave them more incentive to not cancel.

That's almost entirely Gotdweeb advocating for a foul on that. If memory serves when they threw it back to the studio not one of the analysts (including Wally I want to say) agreed that it should have been called a foul.

Edit: I'm told it's actually pronounced SNOT-LIEB.

Kyle’s defense was stellar. His arms remained straight up, even when he moved on the pump fake. On the actual “shot” attempt, Kyle maintained straight-up defense, arms vertical and no forward movement. The offensive player initiated what little contact there was. Frankly, he’d have been better off launching a shot than trying to draw a foul, which resulted in a no-chance heave.

I remember Doug Gottlieb crying that it should have been a foul.

That's a foul in the NBA...but nowhere else. James Harden has made a living leaning into defenders and getting that call.

I miss the old days (90s) when leaning into a defender for the sake of drawing contact was considered an offensive foul.

So when 2 people who are not compelled to commerce agree to an arms' length contract and then follow the terms of that contract, you're saying something is wrong?

I think that Kyle actually got both feet back on the ground before the contact was what made it a non-foul.

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/sta...76597439307776
Mountain West has voted to approve.

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/sta...35538304966656
A10 has also approved. Official announcement should be soon.

Details will be released in short order, but I just stopped by to say congratulations. This is big. I think we are all getting exactly what we have wanted more than anything else in this world. The basketball gods have heard our prayers and answered them. Finally. I say this because I just know we will be playing this game annually on MLK Day to honor Dr King’s legacy. A great man, who had a dream... and as all you history majors know, Dr. King loved the Flyers and he loved mid-major hoops... I’m speechless really. Just never thought I would see the day. But I’m not crying; you’re crying. Heck, we are all crying. Happy tears. Tissue please.
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Really BIG. Never were going to get a Big East or Major Conference matchup... this is the best of the Next Best Thing!

Super huge news!!!!

Like I always say, being best of the next best is the next best to being the best.

If you want to be the next best, you have to beat the next best.

That must've bee before Roosevelt Chapman (who copied Walt Frazier). He made a living off the lean-in.

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The Mountain West Conference and the Atlantic 10 have officially announced a challenge between the two leagues, beginning in the 2020-21 season, per release.

Please send UNLV to My Arena...
 

... or Wyoming!

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/...-dance-580.jpg

DDN: Dayton Flyers could face Mountain West teams in 2020 and 2021 as A-10 announces scheduling partnership

https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/sp...6OnmMIDJgmXwO/

My thoughts on this. Overall not real excited:
https://twitter.com/UDPride/status/1076017171212521473

I do not know for sure, but I would be surprised if UD was a major catalyst for this. If so, only if the athletic department thinks they can wield their influence and more or less guarantee a game against a top MWC team no matter what. Most MWC teams we wouldnt schedule anyway. Even the normally good ones are down -- SDSU, Boise, etc. Its the worst possible time to play MWC teams. Im sure they feel likewise (and rightfully so) about playing A10 teams.

Its the 14th best conference vs the 15th best conference. A giant bleh that has no chance of moving the needle. If we have to give up a home/home slot in order to get paired with New Mexico one year and UNLV the next -- teams that havent done squat the last 5yrs -- we're basically flushing a non-con H/H series down the toilet to make room for this.

But as you have pointed out, it is not getting any easier scheduling even these types of H/Hs.

Is anyone else clamoring for a conference challenge against the A10? Maybe the Horizon or MAC?



Overall I have to imagine we'll get one of the toughest teams each year and get the chance for a good non-con road win with a little less stress / effort / risk than leaving a date open for "just the right team" that might not work out and we get stuck with Coppin State just to fill the hole. Is it better than Mississippi State? No. Does it necessarily mean we can't play Mississippi State + this game? No.

It would be so much better if there was a scenario, where the top 3-4 teams from the top 5-6 mid major conferences got dropped into a pool and selected to play against 1 opponent from that pool each year, one year home, one year away.

UD is going to get stuck with Coppin States in the future regardless of the A10/MWC Challenge. It wasnt an open unfilled date problem that got us Coppin, it was the Atlantis tournament that required a 4th game and assigned us Coppin. We had no choice. So we could very well end up with a Coppin-like team and USAFA -- a double whammy.

Only three MWC teams have better metrics than we do right now. That leaves only three teams worth playing. But we're not the 3rd best metric in the A10. Something must give. Why do we want to play at Colorado State in November or December, possibly sandwiched in a weekday game in between two other tight dates, when we could play Ga Southern and come out just as well or better and not have to pack a bag -- nevermind the home/homes with the likes of Miss State.

This Challenge might work out, but I think there's more to lose than gain for a program like Dayton. For Duquesne or GW or Richmond, its a different story as their scheduling challenges are far greater. UD does not need a Challenge with the MWC because we can schedule the MWC any time we want with maybe the exception of Nevada right now. If the A10 entered into a Challenge with the Big East or AAC I would feel different -- some of those teams are avoiding us and are much better than MWC foes anyway.

I dont want the A10 office to take control of a non-conference scheduling slot on Dayton's schedule that Dayton could do as well or better with by controlling that slot themselves. In essence, I think the Challenge is good for the A10 but not so good for Dayton. Obviously the matchups will be the deciding factor. I dont think any of this is a slam dunk. Its not going to ruin our chances for NCAA bids, but I think the benefits are being over-sold. Just dont think it will move the needle much.

how often are teams getting burned with bad matchups in MWC-MVC challenge?

Chris, I tend to think you're right on this. This what popped into my mind

So there's 14 A10 teams and 11 in the MWC. Normally, I'd assume the bottom 3 projected A10 teams wouldn't participate. Could Neil tell the A10, Hey we want no part of this, take La Salle instead?

There's no telling where the MWC is when this starts. Odds are Nevada loses their coach and the fate of UNLV, New Mexico, San Diego State and other the historically strong programs there is up in the air

The one positive to me is that teams aren't stuck playing a team twice. If Dayton is back at the top of the conference and gets matched up with the top of the MWC it's possible this is a benefit. Let's say Boise State has a strong senior class but is going to rebuild after they graduate. UD can hopefully get them for the good year and avoid the rebuilding year which they couldn't do in a H/H series.

Is there a chance UD gets stuck with road games 2 years in a row and this throws off the predictability of scheduling other series? How does the travel and window of this challenge effect scheduling other series?

Probably a lot depends on how difficult scheduling is going forward. Auburn and Mississippi State series are up after this season. Next year is a clean slate on scheduling H/H series. That could be a tell about how difficult scheduling is going to be going forward

If the series was this year and UD was playing Nevada or Fresno State, it would definitely help us. But we would definitely not play Nevada -- VCU probably would. Maybe Davidson. And Fresno? URI or Davidson may have better metrics there as well. So we're third at best in the pecking order.

If these conferences had 5-6-7 at-large contenders this would all be a moot point, but the leagues are looking at 1-2 NCAA teams at best -- now and maybe even next year. Once the first cpl teams from each league get first dibs on matchups, what's left but sloppy seconds we would rarely schedule anyway? You dont need to travel 2000 miles to schedule a game like that -- MAC teams are a bus ride away. We could be playing at Toledo right now and saving ourselves the hassle and paying immensely better dividends.

Im not sure this challenge can't help us, Im just saying a lot must fall into place for it to help more than we'd be able to help ourselves if left to our own devices. The risk/reward is pretty luke warm. Now 3-4 years ago when the A10 was getting 5 bids and SDSU was kicking it, Boise was rocking, and Eustachy was kicking it at Colorado State when he wasnt drinking with the coeds? Yeah that may have been a windfall arrangement b/t the two leagues. A lot has changed since then however. UD has scheduling leverage only 1-2 other teams in the A10 have -- and its not even as much leverage as we'd like to have given the landscape. Does playing 3rd, 4th or 5th place teams in the MWC improve our NCAA chances?

Not convinced. Sure we can say "just be the best team in the A10 and youll guarantee you play Nevada or whomever is the next Nevada." But VCU and URI and Davidson give out schollies too and are trying to achieve the same thing. Easier said than done. At least when you schedule your own non-con game there is certainty. You know who you are playing well in advance, can plan well ahead for travel and placement of that game so its not a dumb date slot, can run 5-10yr metrics on that program and gauge who they are bringing back, their league strengths, projected finish etc. You control the whole thing. Yep you have to ink the deals yourself so there's more risk if you dont, but by and large I have not ever doubted UDs ability to create an NCAA at-large schedule every year even though it does get more difficult.

Id have been happier with an AAC Challenge. A Top-5 A10 projection would guarantee far better matchup payoffs in that league. But the AAC may not want us for the very opposite reason. In the end I think the MWC and A10 found their equals -- which is to say is a push at best in terms of mechanical advantage. Of course if the leagues improve in the next cpl years that changes everything. And that could happen.

There's 14 A10 teams, 11 in the MWC. Could we tell the league to kick rocks and take La Salle if say we came up with a good series in it's place?

The travel for this could really give the home teams an advantage. Most A10 teams aren't chartering flights. So if Rhode Island is playing at Wyoming, it's possible they fly commercial into Denver and have to take a bus up to Laramie.

Wyoming, Air Force, Colorado State and New Mexico are all in high altitudes. I don't think A10 teams are going to fly out 2-3 days early to adjust like NFL teams do when they play the Broncos

I like this challenge because several teams in the MWC have had historical success, and IMO, the odds favor some/all of those particular schools returning to their historical norms.

I am talking about UNLV, Nevada, and New Mexico. Those 3 schools have had success under more than 1 hc.

I could be wrong, but while Utah State, Boise, and San Diego State have had extended success, I am pretty sure that all of that success was concentrated around only 1 head coach.

The good programs are able to succeed under different head coaches.

SDSU, hc Fisher
Boise, hc Leon Rice
Utah State, hc Stew Morrill

Craig Smith is off to a good start at Utah State in his first year. That should be a program that should be a program that's good

SDSU gave it off to a long time Fisher assistant. Made the NCAAs last year but who knows what happens when Fischer's players run out

Boise graduated their productive players

SDSU basketball being nationally relevant is all Steve Fisher

San Diego State coach is making some of the same points as Chris R

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...016-story.html

Also, what's going on with the AD/Coach communication that some of these HCs didn't know their ADs were supporting this

I’m not a big fan of this challenge. Feels like A10 and MWC are late to the cross league promotion. The higher rated leagues have already done it. There will not be much national interest. I’d like to see something that would generate more national basketball excitement. Easier said than done. I know. However, you will never gain an edge trying to duplicate what the big players already do.

I would like to see more creative ideas generated by UD and the A10. Boise State came into football prominence by thinking very creatively and using the blue field to generate interest. It did not matter if you liked the field. It made football fans notice and gave them a little more to help recruiting. It helped raise the stature of the program.

UD is a great execution school. They run a profitable basketball program and entertain the fans at UD Arena. However, the school is very conservative in its thinking and unwilling to be highly creative when it comes to going to the next level. The program only does low risk tasks.

I learned a long time ago that creativity and nimbleness are the only advantages that you have against large well funded institutions. UD needs some creativity if it ever wants to get to the next level.

Agree very strongly.

It just feels like UD is ALWAYS a day late and a dollar short/behind the curve/10-20 years behind the times.

Not nimble at all.

Specific examples of creativity? Facilities? Scheduling? Lower academic requirements? Foreign recruiting? Domestic recruiting? Man-to-man defense? Zone defense? Charter flights? Practice facility? Community outreach? Better players? Paint the court?

Fairly conservative may be a better term...in most things except for the spending of money.

Not saying it is good or bad. UD has a way of doing things that are comfortable. All coaching hires in the last 20 years have been pretty comfortable. Nothing crazy, nor did it have to be crazy. Arena renovation project, took minds and a ton of money...but the finalization and execution was fairly conservative with the fundraising and rollout of new seat licenses, etc. UD hasn't thought out of the box to ramp up student attendance and have been conservative with that. There are plenty more examples of comfortable decisions.

In UD's case, those comfortable decisions have led to consistency. Consistent fan support which translates to consistent fund raising and revenue generation. UD was passed over for getting out of the A10. Other schools did something that UD didn't do and that was win on a national stage consistently. UD did think out of the box in allowing Archie's green light system of player accountability...partially why I think a guy like Grant was brought in. He will run a tight ship.

I will say that I would like UD to push the A10 to think outside of the box regarding some conference things. The A10 isn't what it used to be and Dayton hasn't taken advantage of that. It would be nice for the upper tier A10 teams and some of the top teams from other conferences like us to make movement. Everyone says the A10 works for UD...but it definitely isn't the A10 of old.

If conference challenges are agreed upon...who cares? They are temporary agreements that we can walk away from if it doesn't pan out for SOS.

If the MWC-A10 Challenge helps elevate the A10 bottom feeders then wouldn't it be worth it?

With all the b*tching I've read on this site about how bad the bottom of the A10 has been since we joined, this venture should be applauded, not criticized.

Suggestions?

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/02/gra...cs-dan-majerle

Figure out what Grand Canyon is doing for their student section and copy it

Agree...at worst this is a push...IMO, it's a positive as it hopefully gives the top teams an additional good game.

The bottom of the A10 needs to win games, not schedule tougher opponents. Period.

The bottom of the A10 is unhelpable because their institutions are not committing the resources needed to improve. Scheduling won’t help. The best thing the A10 can do is establish standards that all programs must meet, and give a reasonable timeline for compliance. Schools that don’t meet the standard don’t get to stay in the conference.

I don’t even know if this is legally feasible, but if the conference has aspirations of continuing to get multiple bids to the NCAA at a time when the big 5 are playing keepout with the scheduling, we simply need better quality wins (and losses) within the conference.

Careful with this. I get what you're saying, but scheduling is extremely important to how your conference is perceived and how your conference is treated come selection day. Look at what the SEC is doing these days. They used to be laughed at (much as the Pac12 is now). After the mandate to schedule better OOC the SEC has turned things around dramatically.

The A10 had an initiative to schedule tough under Linda Bruno. The bottom teams went 2-10 OOC every year anddragged the league down with them.

The goal is not to schedule tough opponents. The goal is to schedule the toughest opponents that you can still beat based on your own personnel. Schedule the toughest teams that you can still win .700 from. Those foes will be different for LaSalle than it will be for VCU.

I highly appreciate the idea that being a fast (or in our case moderately slow) follower isn't going to get it done in this marketplace.

How about this: UD leads the way to create a new preseason tournament. It's a 6 day extravaganza. Every conference outside the P6 (say 7-20) sends their best team; maybe a few of the higher conferences get to send 2 (as determined by the conference). Single elimination with consolation rounds so each team plays at least 2 games. Anyone in the P6 need not apply.

There are more colleges in Ohio than basically any other state. We could use UD arena, Nutter, and 2 dozen other venues within a 90 minute drive. It's not like there will be 10K fans for most games, 2-3K seats will be plenty.

Make it in early February. Schedule all the non-P6 conference games around it. How about really outside the box: the teams aren't picked until early January; like the NCAA tournament, you don't buy your tickets until you know you're in. Then each conference could schedule really light in the rest of February to give the better teams a chance to rest up.

So the P6 won't invite other teams for anything but buy games? Pi$$ on them. I'll bet you could see some great basketball. I think ESPN or Fox would clamor for great basketball content played 14 hours a day instead of reruns of the 1984 US Open.

Gazoo: The University of Dayton used to host the UDIT “University of Dayton Invitational Tournament”. So, Dayton already tried ‘‘tis approach. I remember the tournament took place around the holiday period. I don’t know what happened to this concept? I just noticed that Dayton started to attend other people’s events.
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Probably: 1) people didn't want to play on UD's home court and/or 2) other tournaments came on the scene. It seemed the quality of the teams was headed downhill. I believe 1985-86 was the last year for this. At least for the last couple of years this was held between Christmas & New Years.

FWIW, MWC currently with 3 teams in the Kenpom top 61, including #7 Nevada, then a drop-off to #133 Boise.

A10's top team is #55 VCU, then us at #78 and 3 more teams in the top 105, SLU, Davidson, and URI.