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-   -   AG- I got hope and here's why... (http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31836)

longtimefan 02-06-2018 11:18 PM

I think anybody who thought this would be at least an NIT season thought that Kostas and Svoboda would be MUCH better than they have been, and obviously didn't know that X would be hurting all season. They also probably thought Crosby would have improved more than he has, and that Pierce would at least make some minor contribution.

TXFlyerFan 02-06-2018 11:54 PM

I admit I had higher expectations than what has turned out. Of course, I was expecting Josh to be 100%, which he has been, but also X, Miller, and Mikesell to be at least as good if not better than last year. Well, Miller is gone, Mikesell had surgery and is out for the year, and X has we assume a balky back. I did expect significantly more from Kostas, given that he had an entire year to work out/practice with the team, not to mention working out with his brother. I also expected more from Svoboda, since he is basically a Jr in age and supposedly played against pretty good competition. In fact, at one point, my biggest worry was whether Crosby could lead the team and that we only had 1 PG on the roster.

So on paper, yes, this team should have been significantly better than it has been. But, you add in the injuries, the Miller incident, players underperforming, etc., and it's easy enough to see how we got here. In another dimension, Crutcher is still taking over from Crosby but we have our full complement of players and this team probably has at least 4-6 wins more than it does right now, no one is complaining about AG (well, most aren't), and we probably are looking at a top 4 finish in A-10 and at least NIT.

OSU Flyer 02-07-2018 12:14 AM

I thought we had a chance at an NIT bid this year and honestly if our defense was better we probably would be this year. We almost beat an Mississippi State that's surging towards an NCAA bid right now.

It's not that inconceivable we beat them along with one more win in Charleston and Penn. That's 9-3 in OOC, 10-11 wins in A10 play with a win or two in tourney and we're in the conversation.

Look at our schedule and look at our team. Coming up with 20-21 wins this year isn't that unbelievable. If we played some semblance of defense this year and tried to feed Cunningham then very possible.

I thought X was gonna take another leap forward and be an all conference caliber player. Look at the guy at the end of the St. Mary's game versus at Rhode Island.

Maybe you missed his February and March last year. For a guy a who was a clear 3-4 option he played pretty well. Figgie had 3rd on the time in plus/minus stats

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...yrius-williams


As Longtimefan points, I think most of us thought we'd get more out of Kostas and Matej. I personally thought Kostas would be a good defender and rebounder with his athleticism. The type of guy that could slow down the Aldridge and Kavanaugh type bigs who torch us

Matej is 21 and was the second leading scorer in an international behind a guy who was a lottery pick. Don't think the idea he'd produce more than he has is some ludicrous projection

Please, go in and calm down expectations in the Cohill thread because he's right around the same ranking as Kostas

I realize there's a defend AG regardless of reality faction of the fan base but give me a break that competing for a NIT bid is an unreasonable exception.

shocka43 02-07-2018 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 535134)
I am skeptical. Coming off 4 straight NCAAT appearances, the best streak in school history, and an A10 league title, you mean to tell me that the majority of people on here thought we might be below .500 this year? Sorry, I just am not buying that.

It isn't what the initial expectations were, it is that certain expectations weren't tempered at all after the OOC. I believe I initially had us around 17 wins and adjusted that after the first two weeks of the season. I figured an NIT bid as well.

We all had high hopes for this season for reasons mentioned. I don't think that there is any issue with those high hopes as we as fans were accustomed to that. Instead of overplaying the Mendoza Line, the high expectations of a returning XW, a veteran and older European player, true big in Pierce, a guy that is touted to be better than his NBA brother, new coach, highly anticipated freshman....needed to be tempered after seeing the outcome on the floor.

XW injury issues. Kostas is what he is right now and is where he is for reasons unknown to us. Svoboda's practice game isn't translating to the 40 minutes that count, Pierce is a no show, freshman are playing like freshman with flashes of brilliance, AG is an unknown. Crosby is giving us what was expected, probably less with Crutcher giving more. Trey overplaying where most had him. Cunningham doing what was expected and DD playing as expected. No Miller. No Mikesell.

If a fan didn't adjust their expectations from the fall until now, then they set themselves up for failure and have no one to blame but themselves.

Yes, it sucks as a fan to see the record. It sucks even more for the guys on the floor. Some people have the idea that this program and team will be an E8 team every year...because that is probably where they actually appeared as a fan. Not people like most of us who have followed the program for nearly 40 years.

Tempered expectations made this season much easier on me as a die hard fan. I wish I had those same expectations prior to the AM years and I would have been much better off putting up with the early BG years. Let's just hope this doesn't end up as the later BG years.

steve 02-07-2018 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 535134)
I am skeptical. Coming off 4 straight NCAAT appearances, the best streak in school history, and an A10 league title, you mean to tell me that the majority of people on here thought we might be below .500 this year? Sorry, I just am not buying that.

If you know ANYTHING about how a team is constructed then you would probably understand a bit more how things work. Problem with you, and others, is you buy into how great Greek Freak 2 was going to be based on his brother and some of the vibes we got based on how he practiced last year, that Crosby would automatically be an improvement, that no injuries would happen, no academic concerns, that they would just walk over all teams that came into the Arena which would have certainly increased their win total, and that all of a sudden the freshman knew how to play D,etc.

Well, all of that has/hasn't happened to this team. You lose Mikesell with huge experience and very key in their offense, Miller (experienced,can shoot and a big body), X Williams having back issues, big man in Toppin ineligible, 2-3 freshman playing a ton, Landers who played virtually no mpg last season playing enormous minutes, and basically a scrub in Baby D the past 2 seasons being your leading scorer and "go to" guy.

Add in you lost probably your 2 best recruits with Archie leaving, you bring in a new coaching staff trying to implement their style and, really, it's very very simple to see how this team has struggled to the tune of even a .500 record.

You simply have issues facing reality...

OSU Flyer 02-07-2018 09:28 AM

Bady D wasn't a scrub the past two years, patently unfair to him

CE80 02-07-2018 10:17 AM

Forget about everything else - we are not getting enough out of XW, Svoboda and Kostas to be more successful this season. Is that AG's fault.


XW - I don't think so. He has been hurt.
Svoboda - I don't think so. He has been given chances and he is what he is. Maybe next year after a longer adjustment period we will see it.
Kostas - Maybe AG could do more to utilize him. I'd like to see it. I don't think Kostas dedicated himself to improving over last summer and he got hurt. We don't know what is going on at practice or behind the scenes.

steve 02-07-2018 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CE80 (Post 535184)
Forget about everything else - we are not getting enough out of XW, Svoboda and Kostas to be more successful this season. Is that AG's fault.


XW - I don't think so. He has been hurt.
Svoboda - I don't think so. He has been given chances and he is what he is. Maybe next year after a longer adjustment period we will see it.
Kostas - Maybe AG could do more to utilize him. I'd like to see it. I don't think Kostas dedicated himself to improving over last summer and he got hurt. We don't know what is going on at practice or behind the scenes.

And in fairness to Kostas,besides the injury which caused him to miss lots of practice time, he lost his father in the fall..We'll never know how that affected him just from an everyday standpoint.....

OSU Flyer 02-07-2018 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fly (Post 535133)
I’m not sure how anyone saw this as “at least an NIT year.” They had one — ONE — proven commodity returning, Xerious Williams. And with his health issues, that proven commodity has been unproven. Baby D was a much-maligned role player whose offense this year has been a pleasant, even unexpected surprise. No one knew what we’d have in Josh Cunningham coming off an injury-plagued year, but he’s been a beast. And John Crosby at PG!?? Puh-lease. Other than that, all we knew was that four seniors, a coach and arguably the two best incoming recruits were history.

So where, praytell, did you have confidence that this was “at least an NIT team?” Your clairvoyance was either badly misguided, perhaps fueled by unrealistic expectations that a bunch of freshmen and a totally untested Trey Landers were game changers, or your rose-colored glasses blinded you. Anthony Grant has yet to prove himself at Dayton, for sure, but no one could reasonably have forecast anything other than the kind of mediocre season we’re having.

Frankly, yours is a straw man argument used primarily to beef up your anti-Grant projections. You may be right long-term in that AG might not pan out. But his credentials won’t be judged by this sorry season anymore than Archie’s resume would have had he stayed. He’ll be judged — as he should be — by the next two-three seasons with his recruits on the floor and his system firmly rooted.

He’s not a miracle worker. And this inexperienced, unevenly talented roster proves it, because the only way it was tournament bound was with a miracle worker at the helm.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...y-madness/amp/

None other than Jerry Palm, the bracketology guy for CBS, had us in the first four out last July

ud2 02-07-2018 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer (Post 535425)
https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...y-madness/amp/

None other than Jerry Palm, the bracketology guy for CBS, had us in the first four out last July

Outstanding post!

T-Bone 84 02-08-2018 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve (Post 535186)
And in fairness to Kostas,besides the injury which caused him to miss lots of practice time, he lost his father in the fall..We'll never know how that affected him just from an everyday standpoint.....

Personal experience here. I lost my dad when I was 25 years old. I was devastated. And I was born, bred, and buttered here in Dayton. I can't imagine what it would be like to lose your dad at age 19 or 20, when you're 400 miles away in school, and in your 3rd country of residency.

Very true. We'll never know how that affected him.

THirt 02-08-2018 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer (Post 535425)
https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...y-madness/amp/

None other than Jerry Palm, the bracketology guy for CBS, had us in the first four out last July

Right... when we thought Miller, Mikesell, and Toppin would be playing, we didn’t know Xeyrius had a bad back... shouldn’t those factors affect expectations?

I saw substantial improvement in several areas last night. The one active player on the roster recruited by Grant has 18 assists and 1 turnover in the last 2 games.
Posted via Mobile Device

OSU Flyer 02-08-2018 06:23 AM

I don't think adjusting expectations level down to the NIT after that is unreasonable. This isn't Wright State

CE80 02-08-2018 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer (Post 535425)
https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...y-madness/amp/

None other than Jerry Palm, the bracketology guy for CBS, had us in the first four out last July


Sure Jerry Palm's July bracketology is so reliable.

He has Vanderbilt (3-8; 9-15) as a last 4 in.
He has Wisconsin (3-9; 10-15) as an 8 seed.
He has Minnesota (3-10; 9-15) as a 5 seed.

There may be more. I did not have to look that hard to pick out these 3.

OSU Flyer 02-08-2018 09:33 AM

What is Dayton doing spending $72 million to renovate the arena, $7.1 million on the Cronin center & millions of dollars on coaches salaries if it doesn't expect to be the NCAA/NIT contention every year?
Posted via Mobile Device

longtimefan67 02-08-2018 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 (Post 535444)
Personal experience here. I lost my dad when I was 25 years old. I was devastated. And I was born, bred, and buttered here in Dayton. I can't imagine what it would be like to lose your dad at age 19 or 20, when you're 400 miles away in school, and in your 3rd country of residency.

Very true. We'll never know how that affected him.

Exactly- lost my dad very unexpectedly when I was 36 and i was in a daze for 6-9 months. You cannot calculate the impact of something like that. I can tell you this- it definitely affected my work performance. Assuming he stays we’ll see a completely different player next year in KA. And i add, he gets a pass from me this year just because of his age.
Posted via Mobile Device

CE80 02-08-2018 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer (Post 535487)
What is Dayton doing spending $72 million to renovate the arena, $7.1 million on the Cronin center & millions of dollars on coaches salaries if it doesn't expect to be the NCAA/NIT contention every year?
Posted via Mobile Device

I don't think there is a question that UD desires/expects/strives to be in the NCAA/NIT every year and it wasn't totally unreasonable to think back in July (before all the things that THirt listed, happened) that an NIT bid was a possiblity but as the saying goes - sh!t happens.

ud2 02-08-2018 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THirt (Post 535453)
Right... when we thought Miller, Mikesell, and Toppin would be playing, we didn’t know Xeyrius had a bad back... shouldn’t those factors affect expectations?

I saw substantial improvement in several areas last night. The one active player on the roster recruited by Grant has 18 assists and 1 turnover in the last 2 games.
Posted via Mobile Device

I was thinking NIT after those things happened.

SLUFLYER 02-08-2018 10:25 AM

Anthony Grant was masterful last night. Every button he pushed was the right one. The game plan was a stroke of genius and he had the players well prepared, both mentally and physically. The Flyers shot 64% for the game and 83% in the 2nd half. 57% from behind the arc and 82% from the foul line. They also had a team assist to turnover ratio of 2-to-1.

It's obvious to me that AG just coached his best game as a Flyer and is a genius.

Summary - Coaches look really smart when players are making shots. And when players aren't making shots? Well then..............until the next game.

Viperstick 02-08-2018 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 534853)
Kuwik was mentioned in connection with the Dartmouth job in spring 2016.

https://hoopdirt.com/dartmouth-dirt-2/


Dartmouth: very pretty campus, drove through this past summer. Very pretty area.

Coolest. Mascot. Ever.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/pictur...&pictureid=292

CE80 02-08-2018 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viperstick (Post 535516)
Coolest. Mascot. Ever.

https://goo.gl/images/GE5zc4

Had to look it up. Keggy the Keg.

T-Bone 84 02-08-2018 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 535495)
Exactly- lost my dad very unexpectedly when I was 36 and i was in a daze for 6-9 months. You cannot calculate the impact of something like that. I can tell you this- it definitely affected my work performance. Assuming he stays we’ll see a completely different player next year in KA. And i add, he gets a pass from me this year just because of his age.
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah, if it hadn’t been for my friends and family (my mom, my wife, and 1 cousin in particular) pulling me through, I’d have been a total basket case. And that was at age 25. Hard to imagine how it is for him in his situation.
Posted via Mobile Device

CvilleFlyer 02-08-2018 01:02 PM

After all the flak that Anthony Grant received after the St. Louis game for not calling a timeout during a 10-0 first half run by the Billikens and not calling a single timeout during the entire second half I think he deserves kudos for calling a strategic timeout last night at the 8:15 mark of the second half! Because of a bogus foul on a strip by Jordan Davis and the ensuing technical foul on AG the Flyers saw their lead reduced from 18 to 14 in a matter of 23 seconds!

After a near perfect first ten minutes of the second half the Flyers were cruising but when the technical was assessed I'm sure many of the Flyer Faithful thought this could be a momentum changer in the game!

The timeout was perfectly timed and we regained control of the game by continuing to push the ball which created many easy baskets down the stretch and the final 15 point cushion.

longtimefan67 02-18-2018 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 535134)
I am skeptical. Coming off 4 straight NCAAT appearances, the best streak in school history, and an A10 league title, you mean to tell me that the majority of people on here thought we might be below .500 this year? Sorry, I just am not buying that.

Does this give you a better idea:
Dayton lost 6/8 of the top scoring players to graduation or injury.
Of the 2/8 left, only DD has elevated his game, the other (XW) for whatever reason, didn't and has regressed.
9-12 was John Crosby, Josh Cunningham and Trey Landers
16/17 PPG averages:
Crosby: 2.8 over 32 games
Josh C: 6.3 over 11 games
Trey: 3.0 over 9 games

So if XW and John C for whatever reason haven't shown enough to be starters, then they continue to be just bench players at best.

Now you have 2 freshmen starting with zero Division 1 experience.
Add: Josh, Trey and D. Davis

And a bunch of additional freshmen with zero Division 1 experience.

And with all of that, you expected at least an NIT team? Maybe, if everyone had stepped up their game but 2 notable upperclassmen didn't. I think AG saw that early on and decided to develop for the future. (And I'm OK with that).

ud2 02-18-2018 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 537715)
Does this give you a better idea:
Dayton lost 6/8 of the top scoring players to graduation or injury.
Of the 2/8 left, only DD has elevated his game, the other (XW) for whatever reason, didn't and has regressed.
9-12 was John Crosby, Josh Cunningham and Trey Landers
16/17 PPG averages:
Crosby: 2.8 over 32 games
Josh C: 6.3 over 11 games
Trey: 3.0 over 9 games

So if XW and John C for whatever reason haven't shown enough to be starters, then they continue to be just bench players at best.

Now you have 2 freshmen starting with zero Division 1 experience.
Add: Josh, Trey and D. Davis

And a bunch of additional freshmen with zero Division 1 experience.

And with all of that, you expected at least an NIT team? Maybe, if everyone had stepped up their game but 2 notable upperclassmen didn't. I think AG saw that early on and decided to develop for the future. (And I'm OK with that).

https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...y-madness/amp/:

First four out


Dayton Flyers

The Flyers have made four straight NCAA tourneys, but lost four key seniors. More important, they lost Archie Miller, who took the Indiana job. Anthony Grant, who went 117-85 in six seasons at Alabama, will have his hands full.

OSU Flyer 02-18-2018 02:29 PM

Matt Schwade was on local radio before Ball St & he didn't think this was a losing season battling not to finish in last place
Posted via Mobile Device

jack72 02-18-2018 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 537791)
https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...y-madness/amp/:

First four out


Dayton Flyers

The Flyers have made four straight NCAA tourneys, but lost four key seniors. More important, they lost Archie Miller, who took the Indiana job. Anthony Grant, who went 117-85 in six seasons at Alabama, will have his hands full.

What was that guy smoking?

longtimefan67 02-18-2018 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer (Post 537798)
Matt Schwade was on local radio before Ball St & he didn't think this was a losing season battling not to finish in last place
Posted via Mobile Device

Oh- Jerry Palm, enuf said
Posted via Mobile Device

ud2 02-18-2018 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 537715)
Does this give you a better idea:
Dayton lost 6/8 of the top scoring players to graduation or injury.
Of the 2/8 left, only DD has elevated his game, the other (XW) for whatever reason, didn't and has regressed.
9-12 was John Crosby, Josh Cunningham and Trey Landers
16/17 PPG averages:
Crosby: 2.8 over 32 games
Josh C: 6.3 over 11 games
Trey: 3.0 over 9 games

So if XW and John C for whatever reason haven't shown enough to be starters, then they continue to be just bench players at best.

Now you have 2 freshmen starting with zero Division 1 experience.
Add: Josh, Trey and D. Davis

And a bunch of additional freshmen with zero Division 1 experience.

And with all of that, you expected at least an NIT team? Maybe, if everyone had stepped up their game but 2 notable upperclassmen didn't. I think AG saw that early on and decided to develop for the future. (And I'm OK with that).

And what about this site?

The Flyers were ranked #53, #3 in the A10. Projected to go to the NIT.

We are #131 right now.


http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/15118

FlyerBob 02-18-2018 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 537847)
And what about this site?

The Flyers were ranked #53, #3 in the A10. Projected to go to the NIT.

We are #131 right now.


http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/15118

Just shows we had built up some credibility during the Archie years. So we have a "brand" amongst the prognosticators. We need to get back soon... I think we will.

longtimefan 02-18-2018 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 537847)
And what about this site?

The Flyers were ranked #53, #3 in the A10. Projected to go to the NIT.

We are #131 right now.

http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/15118

So what? These pre-season projections are often wrong. And those folks probably expected big things from, X, Kostas, and Svoboda. We have gotten next to nothing from all of them.

ud2 02-18-2018 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 537715)
Does this give you a better idea:...

Or what about the A10 preseason poll? We were picked #5.

We are in a 3 way tie for 8th now, 1 game ahead of 2 teams.

http://www.atlantic10.com/pdf9/5459739.pdf


http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...-10-conference

OSU Flyer 02-18-2018 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 537842)
Oh- Jerry Palm, enuf said
Posted via Mobile Device

https://player.fm/series/stay-in-tou...s-hoops-on-dss

The Fly 02-18-2018 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 537850)
Or what about the A10 preseason poll? We were picked #5.

We are in a 3 way tie for 8th now, 1 game ahead of 2 teams.

http://www.atlantic10.com/pdf9/5459739.pdf


http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...-10-conference

Yeah, and one game behind a tie for fifth place, not to mention two games behind fourth. We suck and so does most of the league. No matter how you spin it, this team was never set up to sniff a dance card.

CE80 02-18-2018 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 537791)
https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...y-madness/amp/:

First four out


Dayton Flyers

The Flyers have made four straight NCAA tourneys, but lost four key seniors. More important, they lost Archie Miller, who took the Indiana job. Anthony Grant, who went 117-85 in six seasons at Alabama, will have his hands full.

I believe OSU Flyer had already posted this somewhere. Look at the predictions for Wisc, Minn and Vandy, then come back an tell me how relevant July brackets are.

ud2 02-19-2018 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan (Post 537849)
So what? These pre-season projections are often wrong. And those folks probably expected big things from, X, Kostas, and Svoboda. We have gotten next to nothing from all of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fly (Post 537854)
Yeah, and one game behind a tie for fifth place, not to mention two games behind fourth. We suck and so does most of the league. No matter how you spin it, this team was never set up to sniff a dance card.

All 3 of those sites had us at 5th place or better. 2 of the 3 had us in the NIT or NCAAT.

IMO, that is somewhat of a consensus.

IndianaFlyer 02-19-2018 07:49 PM

They were all wrong. That is the consensus I've reached.
Posted via Mobile Device

ud2 02-20-2018 01:01 AM

Several places picked UD as 5th or better, it was not unreasonable to think that this was at least a NIT team.


Here are a few more:

Street and Smith's 8th place

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sport...6w5m8FICfR6oL/

Athlon 4th place

Lindy's 6th place

Sports Illustrated 5th place

https://www.si.com/college-basketbal...ings-standings

NBC 5th place

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.c...leads-the-way/


Three man weave, 7th place, NIT projection

http://three-man-weave.com/3mw/2017/...017-18-preview

UD62 02-20-2018 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538130)
Several places picked UD as 5th or better, it was not unreasonable to think that this was at least a NIT team.


Here are a few more:

Street and Smith's 8th place

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sport...6w5m8FICfR6oL/

Athlon 4th place

Lindy's 6th place

Sports Illustrated 5th place

https://www.si.com/college-basketbal...ings-standings

NBC 5th place

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.c...leads-the-way/


Three man weave, 7th place, NIT projection

http://three-man-weave.com/3mw/2017/...017-18-preview

Half the examples you site have UD at 6th or worse. Not a very convincing arguement. Perhaps you should go back to the 15-15 schedule

longtimefan67 02-20-2018 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 537847)
And what about this site?

The Flyers were ranked #53, #3 in the A10. Projected to go to the NIT.

We are #131 right now.


http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/15118

Haha, seriously? Did you actually read the entire article?

>>>Projected starting 5:

Projected Starting Five:
John Crosby, Junior, Guard, 2.8 points per game - Nope
Darrell Davis, Senior, Guard, 5.5 points per game
Xeyrius Williams, Junior, Forward, 8.2 points per game - Nope
Josh Cunningham, Junior, Forward, 6.3 points per game
Kostas Antetokounmpo, Freshman, Forward, DNP last season - Nope

>>>Who’s In:
Redshirt freshman Kostas Antetokounmpo has the potential to make a huge impact right away. He comes from a great basketball family and has international experience with the Greek under-20 team. At 6-10 and 190 pounds, he could stand to put on more weight, but Antetokounmpo is a superb talent with a ton of potential. From day one he should be a good shot blocker and rebounder, but do not be surprised if he develops into a decent scorer by the end of his freshman campaign as well. Incoming freshmen Matej Svoboda, Obadiah Toppin and Jordan Pierce will add plenty of depth to the frontcourt. Jordan Davis, a 6-4 guard, will need to help replace the loss of all of those shooters. And he certainly has the tools to quickly become a star on the perimeter. Jalen Crutcher is the point guard of the future, but he will have to play some quality minutes right away too.

Who to Watch:
Unlike in years past, this Dayton team will be relying heavily on their frontcourt. Xeyrius Williams, a 6-8 forward, is the team’s top returning scorer and rebounder, averaging 8.2 points and 4.8 rebounds as a freshman. Offensively, Williams has the ability to stretch the defense with his three-point shooting ability. Josh Cunningham is poised for a breakout season. He flashed some of his talent last year before an ankle injury limited him to just 11 games. Cunningham sat out the previous season after transferring in from Bradley so he has been waiting for a long time to show what he can do. Cunningham will be a strong rebounder and a very efficient scorer. Both Williams and Cunningham will have to be leaders on the floor. If they live up to their potential, along with some help from the newcomers, this could be the best frontcourt in the Atlantic 10.

Final Projection:
The bigger issues are in the backcourt. John Crosby gained some experience last year, averaging 13.3 minutes per game, but now he will be the starting point guard. He will not be the next Scoochie Smith, but as long as Crosby can run the offense effectively, Dayton will be in decent shape. If Crosby can score though, it would be helpful. Most of the scoring from the perimeter will likely come from Darrell Davis. The 6-5 senior did not have a great junior year in the scoring department, but he is turning into a great all-around player. With more shots to go around, Davis should see a massive boost in scoring. Even if he continues to just be an outside shooter, Davis should do plenty of scoring. There are a lot of big names to replace and it may take some time for it to happen, but there is also a lot of talent on this team. Dayton can reload in a hurry and by the time conference play rolls around, the Flyers will be a tough team to beat.
<<<

* source above: http://www.collegesportsmadness.com/article/15118

CE80 02-20-2018 09:32 AM

^^^
That pretty much sums up why this season has turned out to be so disappointing.

longtimefan 02-20-2018 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538064)
All 3 of those sites had us at 5th place or better. 2 of the 3 had us in the NIT or NCAAT.

IMO, that is somewhat of a consensus.

Athlon had Minnesota 2nd in the Big 10. Lindy's had them 3rd. Street & Smith had them 4th. All had them in the Top 25. IMO, that is somewhat of a consensus. You might want to check the Big 10 standings. (Hint: Minnesota is tied for last.)

ud2 02-20-2018 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UD62 (Post 538145)
Half the examples you site have UD at 6th or worse. Not a very convincing arguement. Perhaps you should go back to the 15-15 schedule

And half of the examples had UD 5th or better.

I will agree that this issue is debatable.

But, for many posters on here to say that UD this year had no shot at the NCAAT or NIT, is just flat out wrong.

ud2 02-20-2018 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan (Post 538182)
Athlon had Minnesota 2nd in the Big 10. Lindy's had them 3rd. Street & Smith had them 4th. All had them in the Top 25. IMO, that is somewhat of a consensus. You might want to check the Big 10 standings. (Hint: Minnesota is tied for last.)

And again, I bet many Minny fans are really ticked off about how this year played out for them. I bet many are saying that Richard Pitino did not do a good job this year.

ud2 02-20-2018 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 538148)
Haha, seriously? Did you actually read the entire article?

Yeah, I read the article. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason why some of these players did not perform as well as expected this year is because maybe Grant did a poor job of coaching them up?

longtimefan67 02-20-2018 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538185)
Yeah, I read the article. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason why some of these players did not perform well this year is because maybe Grant did a poor job of coaching them up?

If the entire team was in a complete state of disarray, not contributing, AG making lineup changes every single game trying to find anyone that might play, i might agree with you. But AG can't "do a poor job of coaching them up" selectively. I think for some of the team they didn't buy into their new role or expectations. There are other factors here at well - they have been discussed in depth so I won't rehash (mostly injuries).

If AG did do a poor job of coaching some, apparently he did a very good job with others, you know, the ones that start and the few that come off the bench. 3 of the 5 projected starters listed in the article you referenced indicated that XW would be the leading scorer, much was expected of KA and John C. For whatever reason, those things didn't happen.

Now you are relying on freshmen and a rarely played sophomore. We'll likely see the benefits of that experience next year but until this season plays out, I haven't quite yet given up hope. Anything can happen in the next 3 weeks.

longtimefan 02-20-2018 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538185)
Yeah, I read the article. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason why some of these players did not perform as well as expected this year is because maybe Grant did a poor job of coaching them up?

That's probably true. Grant did a great job of coaching up Davis, Davis, Landers, Crutcher, and Cunningham, but he did a lousy job of coaching up Kostas, X, Crosby, Svoboda, and Pierce. Good argument.

ud2 02-20-2018 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UD62 (Post 538145)
Perhaps you should go back to the 15-15 schedule

You invited a 15/15 response from me.

Why have Xavier, Butler, VCU, and Gonzaga all played a 15/15 schedule at least some of the time through the years? Xavier, in particular, does this practically every single year.

An additional nice 1 or 2 wins over 2 good p5 teams might be worth a 5 or 10 or 15 spot improvement in the rpi rankings.

So, for Archie's last 2 years, instead of having to play tough 10 seeds like Syracuse and Wichita State, we might instead get a 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 seed and play a weaker 14 or 13 or 12 or 11 seed, and thereby have a better chance of advancing past the round of 64.

It is hard to say that UD really cares about building a championship program/pursuing excellence/doing everything that they can do/being all that they can be, when they seem to place making money above all else.

If UD was really serious about excelling, then why have they never played a 15/15 schedule, when all of our peers, that we are trying to emulate, have done it several times, and continue to do it to this very day?

springborofan 02-20-2018 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538185)
Yeah, I read the article. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason why some of these players did not perform as well as expected this year is because maybe Grant did a poor job of coaching them up?

Is DD playing better than last year?
Is josh C playing better than last year?
Is Trey playing better than last year?
Have Crutcher and J Davis improved this year?

Has John Crosby's trajectory from FR-SO-JR changed dramatically downward?

I can almost see your point with XW but we also don't know how his injury impacted his "coaching up".

You can't coach up an almost 7 ft kid who walks off the practice floor.

Matej and Kostas? Not enough data points to know yet

My point is you keep reaching for new narratives when confronted with the disconnect between your unrealistic pre season expectations and reality.

I hope you don't pull a muscle when you keep reaching for new talking points...

longtimefan 02-20-2018 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538189)
You invited a 15/15 response from me.

Why have Xavier, Butler, VCU, and Gonzaga all played a 15/15 schedule at least some of the time through the years? Xavier, in particular, does this practically every single year.

An additional nice 1 or 2 wins over 2 good p5 teams might be worth a 5 or 10 or 15 spot improvement in the rpi rankings.

So, for Archie's last 2 years, instead of having to play tough 10 seeds like Syracuse and Wichita State, we might instead get a 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 seed and play a weaker 14 or 13 or 12 or 11 seed, and thereby have a better chance of advancing past the round of 64.

It is hard to say that UD really cares about building a championship program/pursuing excellence/doing everything that they can do/being all that they can be, when they seem to place making money above all else.

If UD was really serious about excelling, then why have they never played a 15/15 schedule, when all of our peers, that we are trying to emulate, have done it several times, and continue to do it to this very day?

Wow, I've never heard any of those arguments before.

longtimefan67 02-20-2018 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538189)
You invited a 15/15 response from me.

Why have Xavier, Butler, VCU, and Gonzaga all played a 15/15 schedule at least some of the time through the years? Xavier, in particular, does this practically every single year.

An additional nice 1 or 2 wins over 2 good p5 teams might be worth a 5 or 10 or 15 spot improvement in the rpi rankings.

So, for Archie's last 2 years, instead of having to play tough 10 seeds like Syracuse and Wichita State, we might instead get a 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 seed and play a weaker 14 or 13 or 12 or 11 seed, and thereby have a better chance of advancing past the round of 64.

It is hard to say that UD really cares about building a championship program/pursuing excellence/doing everything that they can do/being all that they can be, when they seem to place making money above all else.

If UD was really serious about excelling, then why have they never played a 15/15 schedule, when all of our peers, that we are trying to emulate, have done it several times, and continue to do it to this very day?

You will get no argument here from me. UofD has wh0re'd the arena for years at the expense schedule difficulty (or lack thereof). I'd love to see Dayton take on Duke or NC or Kentucky, etc..on the road, before A10 play. It won't ever happen...Seem like OP did do it once with Duke, another time with UK at a neutral site...but we ALWAYS GET 17-18 games at home...

OSU Flyer 02-20-2018 12:47 PM

To be fair Josh was hurt last year so by being healthy he'd almost have to be better

DD is getting more minutes and shots. Landers was hurt, improved his body and had more of an opportunity this year.

Crosby's trajectory changed from the Ball State game to now downward

Crutch and Davis has improved over the course of the season.

longtimefan 02-20-2018 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 538193)
we ALWAYS GET 17-18 games at home...

Actually, three of the last four years we have played 16 home games and 14 road/neutral.

SLUFLYER 02-20-2018 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan (Post 538200)
Actually, three of the last four years we have played 16 home games and 14 road/neutral.

Yep, and given the economics of the situation, I can't imagine we could go any less than 16.

ud2 02-21-2018 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER (Post 538201)
Yep, and given the economics of the situation, I can't imagine we could go any less than 16.

Yet, Gonzaga, Butler, Xavier, Temple, VCU, etc. have routinely pulled it off through the years.

This is doable. It would require a 6.25%(1/16)increase in ticket/parking/seat license/etc. prices. I think most people would not balk at that sort of one-time cost increase, if the reasoning was spelled out for them.

UD could maybe even just phase in the cost increase over multiple years: a 2% increase for each of 3 years, a 3% increase for each of 2 years, etc.

The Fly 02-21-2018 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538635)
Yet, Gonzaga, Butler, Xavier, Temple, VCU, etc. have routinely pulled it off through the years.

This is doable. It would require a 6.25%(1/16)increase in ticket/parking/seat license/etc. prices. I think most people would not balk at that sort of one-time cost increase, if the reasoning was spelled out for them.

UD could maybe even just phase in the cost increase over multiple years: a 2% increase for each of 3 years, a 3% increase for each of 2 years, etc.

Look, you’re entitled to your opinion on this issue, and you’ve expressed it COUNTLESS times. But could you at least do us the favor of changing your screen name to Deja Vu?

ud2 02-21-2018 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 538187)
Now you are relying on freshmen and a rarely played sophomore. We'll likely see the benefits of that experience next year but until this season plays out, I haven't quite yet given up hope. Anything can happen in the next 3 weeks.

Right, but other teams have relied on freshmen and sophomores before and done well.

Butler and Xavier get significant contributions from underclassmen on a regular basis.

Heck, Xavier went to the Elite 8 under Matta with 2 freshmen in the starting lineup, Doellman and Cage.

longtimefan 02-21-2018 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538635)
This is doable. It would require a 6.25%(1/16)increase in ticket/parking/seat license/etc. prices. I think most people would not balk at that sort of one-time cost increase, if the reasoning was spelled out for them.

UD could maybe even just phase in the cost increase over multiple years: a 2% increase for each of 3 years, a 3% increase for each of 2 years, etc.

That's easy for you to say since you are not a season ticket holder and rarely go to a game.

ud2 02-21-2018 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longtimefan67 (Post 538187)
Now you are relying on freshmen and a rarely played sophomore. We'll likely see the benefits of that experience next year but until this season plays out, I haven't quite yet given up hope. Anything can happen in the next 3 weeks.

And what about the Elite 8 year under Archie? We had 2 sophomores in the starting lineup: Pierre and Price.

OSU Flyer 02-21-2018 01:28 PM

The other options could be to pay less for buy games. I like the current strategy of getting good teams in here but with the quadrant system the NCAA is putting a premium on high quality wins vs RPI.

Monetize something new in the arena or game day experience.

Keep more of the money that basketball generates in the program.

Cut resources to other sports

This said I'm not too worried about an extra road/neutral game. I'd like it but nothing I'm going to loose sleep over

ud2 02-21-2018 01:46 PM

I am just very concerned. I have been very intently following UD for several years now, more intently that I have in the past.

And I just get this overwhelming sense that UD is not interested in trying to be a championship program on a regular basis. I mean, I look at Butler, VCU, Xavier, Gonzaga, Temple, etc., and I seem to see those programs fighting and scraping for every last little crumb.

I mean, if there is a crumb of food left on the floor, then they will absolutely fight you for the small little crumb of food.

I do not see that same sense of hunger coming from UD. UD seems very content to just sit back and let the world pass them by. UD just seems content to be a nice, little mid-major program, with a great, rabid fanbase, and just be satisfied and content with the way that things have been since Donoher was fired.

It is not bumbling incompetence coming from UD's administration, it is just that I think that UD's administration just does not really care and is just not really serious. They just don't give a sh*t.

I mean if Butler, VCU, Xavier, Gonzaga, Temple, etc., were right now going through the type of season that we are going through, then they would absolutely be pulling their hair out right now trying to fix the thing. And the head coach's rear end would be on fire right now. But, we just seem content to accept it and let it be.

AZFlyer85 02-21-2018 01:54 PM

Is Mike Rhoades ass on fire at VCU?? They would be stupid to fire him.

Flyer 86 02-21-2018 02:03 PM

not sure where this thread has gone the last 10 to 15 postings. Seems more like and A10 or Big East thread. Anyway, back to AG.

So as we complete the season, and with nice wins against SLU (we were losing), DUkes, VCU --- it is definitely LESS of an AG coaching issue. Than Buy-in by the team and the quality and depth of our player and our bench.

Bench has been the BIGGER issue. Seasoning and maturity of our other guys - JD, " Clutch Crutch" (i'm patenting caps this week!), KA, TRey has moved along well - and perhaps better than expected.

I think he'll having them play Defnese next year, and I truly hope we can play 8 or 9 deep. With Topping and Matos being 2 of those guys contributing some decent, quality minutes.

ud2 02-21-2018 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCFlyer85 (Post 538654)
Is Mike Rhoades ass on fire at VCU?? They would be stupid to fire him.

IINM, I think somebody posted on here a little while ago, that the VCU board is all over Rhoades right now. I will see if I can find the post.

ud2 02-21-2018 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCFlyer85 (Post 538654)
Is Mike Rhoades ass on fire at VCU?? They would be stupid to fire him.

I could not find the post on this board that I was talking about.

Yeah, the thread at the very top of the their board right now is a 54 page thread with 808 replies about whether hc Mike Rhoades is the right man for the job.


https://www.vcuramnation.com/forums/...-legacy.17381/


https://www.vcuramnation.com/forums/...-basketball.4/

Chris R 02-21-2018 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538640)
Heck, Xavier went to the Elite 8 under Matta with 2 freshmen in the starting lineup, Doellman and Cage.

They were surrounded by Romaine Sato, Lionel Chalmers, Anthony Myles, Brandon Cole, Will Caudle, and Keith Jackson. :wtf:

MNFats 02-21-2018 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ud2 (Post 538184)
And again, I bet many Minny fans are really ticked off about how this year played out for them. I bet many are saying that Richard Pitino did not do a good job this year.

They are more angry with Reggie Lynch. Also the injury to Coffey. Team was 13-3 with them and 1-12 since then (Coffey has only played 2 of those games)

The talk is more about the difficult circumstances the team was put in and "what could have been". Sounds familiar.

Avid Flyer 02-21-2018 03:44 PM

Look at Duquesne, some felt he would have been the better hire. They got off to a early wining record and caught people's eye. Right now they are on a downward spiral. Those early wins were against easier teams which didn't prepare them for A10 play.

On the other hand AG early schedule netted a good sos and has toughened the team for the stretch run. If we just had a couple bench players contributing our starters could get a blow now and then.

OSU Flyer 02-21-2018 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer (Post 538683)
Look at Duquesne, some felt he would have been the better hire. They got off to a early wining record and caught people's eye. Right now they are on a downward spiral. Those early wins were against easier teams which didn't prepare them for A10 play.

On the other hand AG early schedule netted a good sos and has toughened the team for the stretch run. If we just had a couple bench players contributing our starters could get a blow now and then.

To be fair Dambrot has the last place team in the A10 preseason poll, no depth (5 guys sitting out as transfers) and not much on the roster returning. He's exceeded expectations with what he inherited

CE80 02-21-2018 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer (Post 538686)
To be fair Dambrot has the last place team in the A10 preseason poll, no depth (5 guys sitting out as transfers) and not much on the roster returning. He's exceeded expectations with what he inherited

they beat us once and gave URI all it could handle. Tie game and URI hit a shot at the buzzer to win. Duq up most of the game.

OSU Flyer 02-21-2018 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris R (Post 538662)
They were surrounded by Romaine Sato, Lionel Chalmers, Anthony Myles, Brandon Cole, Will Caudle, and Keith Jackson. :wtf:


Cole, Caulde and Jackson weren't much to write home about.

FlyerGuyer 02-21-2018 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer (Post 538686)
To be fair Dambrot has the last place team in the A10 preseason poll, no depth (5 guys sitting out as transfers) and not much on the roster returning. He's exceeded expectations with what he inherited


So all Dambrot has to do is not finish last (that is, finish above Fordham) in a weak A-10 and that’s considered success? By the way, Duquesne has dropped 7 of 8, including a 23 point drubbing at home...to Fordham. The Dukes are one game out of 12th place and two games out of last place, and they still have to play Davidson, SLU, and UMass. Duquesne is # 230 in the RPI.

Regarding depth, their roster this season is obviously not stellar, but they have at least 8 guys who play significant minutes in nearly every game—including 3 seniors and 1 junior.

Dambrot is a big improvement over Ferry, but let’s not name him Coach of the Year just yet. The tooth fairy would be an improvement over Ferry...

FlyerGuyer 02-21-2018 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CE80 (Post 538697)
they beat us once and gave URI all it could handle. Tie game and URI hit a shot at the buzzer to win. Duq up most of the game.


LaSalle took Rhode Island to overtime last night and lost by two points. LaSalle has a good chance of beating Dayton at Tom Gola High School Gym. Give Giannini Coach of the Year...

SLUFLYER 02-22-2018 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer (Post 538762)
LaSalle took Rhode Island to overtime last night and lost by two points. LaSalle has a good chance of beating Dayton at Tom Gola High School Gym. Give Giannini Coach of the Year...

Since Coach of the Year was brought up, I will add my $.02

As much as I can't stand him, Hurley deserves it. If they finish 17-1, it's not even a contest.

But if you're looking for a guy who has done more with less this year, Travis Ford would deserve serious consideration.

CT Flyer 02-22-2018 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER (Post 538845)
As much as I can't stand him, Hurley deserves it. If they finish 15-1, it's not even a contest.

Agreed on both accounts...can't stand him but they are far and away the class of the league this year.

CE80 02-22-2018 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER (Post 538845)
Since Coach of the Year was brought up, I will add my $.02

As much as I can't stand him, Hurley deserves it. If they finish 15-1, it's not even a contest.

But if you're looking for a guy who has done more with less this year, Travis Ford would deserve serious consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT Flyer (Post 538850)
Agreed on both accounts...can't stand him but they are far and away the class of the league this year.

Don't disagree either but also who else would get it? Schmidt? Mckillop?

CT Flyer 02-22-2018 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CE80 (Post 538855)
Don't disagree either but also who else would get it? Schmidt? Mckillop?

I would say its between those three.

OSU Flyer 02-22-2018 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer (Post 538758)
So all Dambrot has to do is not finish last (that is, finish above Fordham) in a weak A-10 and that’s considered success? By the way, Duquesne has dropped 7 of 8, including a 23 point drubbing at home...to Fordham. The Dukes are one game out of 12th place and two games out of last place, and they still have to play Davidson, SLU, and UMass. Duquesne is # 230 in the RPI.

Regarding depth, their roster this season is obviously not stellar, but they have at least 8 guys who play significant minutes in nearly every game—including 3 seniors and 1 junior.

Dambrot is a big improvement over Ferry, but let’s not name him Coach of the Year just yet. The tooth fairy would be an improvement over Ferry...

Yeah, Duquesne isn't good but considering where they started it's good. They were 3-15 in conference last year. They have a shot a .500 or above record this year

They're currently one game ahead of Dayton in the standings

SLUFLYER 02-22-2018 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer (Post 538862)
They're currently one game ahead of Dayton in the standings

I think you meant they're currently one game behind Dayton in the standings.

IAFlyer 02-22-2018 12:00 PM

Expectations
 
Back to expectations:

First Four out = NIT

So, we were an NIT expectation before any of the injuries and player issues. Factor in those and we fall into the .500 to maybe NIT category. Watching the players for a few weeks and you should have known that it was going to take time for them to gel/understand the new system.

We are seeing positive signs from Landers and Crutcher (essentially both freshman with lack of minutes last year from Landers). Is that all them or have they been "coached up"?


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