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  #101  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:55 PM
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For some reason, the people of this country believe that insurance is supposed to "pay for everything". It is probably more true with health insurance than any other, but I've had people ask why their home insurance won't give them a new furnace because the old one broke down due to age.

How do we move people's mindset to one of "personal responsibility". If we did, there would be much fewer that 20% uninsured drivers, and more people would purchase health insurance and the price would be lower.

UDDoug brought up the treating Health Insurance like a permanent life policy. That is a good idea - it doesn't work that way in the individual world today.
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  #102  
Old 04-16-2012, 02:40 PM
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Wow...

Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
Uh - click on a Faux News link? I'd rather pull off my fingernails with linesman's pliers . . .
But have a nice day.

Here is the link to the petition to "urge Fr. Graham and the Xavier University Board of Trustees to live out the Jesuit mission of being men and women for others and not succumb to polarizing, politicized attacks on women." :
http://www.change.org/petitions/xavi...-birth-control

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straight out of the Democratic Party playbook. This is one of many reasons why I went from being the Vice President of the College Democrats during my time at UD to fleeing this party like there is no tomorrow.
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  #103  
Old 04-16-2012, 03:51 PM
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Ya know, it's amazing that people fall for this tripe all the time ("...to live out the Jesuit mission...") ; what self-described, religious scholar, theologian came up with that one? The "playbook" appears to be to throw the useful idiots a bone and let them run with it, no matter how contrived the excuse/counterpoint may be. If that doesn't work, resort to ad hominem attacks and then clutch your breast and, with all the phony seriousness one can muster, call on everyone else to abstain from the "politics of personal destruction" that was just perpetrated. This sorry a** tune is really getting old. It's way past time for people to grow up, realize there is no free lunch, stop looking for government to provide all the solutions to one's day to day problems and take some personal responsibility. Heaven forfend that someone, anyone, stand up and say enough is enough, take care of your own wants and needs and get off the public teat.
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  #104  
Old 04-16-2012, 04:28 PM
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Positive change will come if and only if....

......as a nation we stop saying, "what's in the best interest of seniors"?,..".....of big business"?,....".....of public employee unions"?...."....of the Defense Department"?,...."....of this special interest group and that"?....and we all say, "what's in the best long term interests of America"?

If every decision made by Congress and all Americans was consistently in the best interest of America we would all be better off.

Alas, that seems more unlikely than ever.
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  #105  
Old 04-16-2012, 05:00 PM
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Socialist Motto...

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
......as a nation we stop saying, "what's in the best interest of seniors"?,..".....of big business"?,....".....of public employee unions"?...."....of the Defense Department"?,...."....of this special interest group and that"?....and we all say, "what's in the best long term interests of America"?

If every decision made by Congress and all Americans was consistently in the best interest of America we would all be better off.

Alas, that seems more unlikely than ever.
...Divide and conquer...
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  #106  
Old 04-16-2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
......as a nation we stop saying, "what's in the best interest of seniors"?,..".....of big business"?,....".....of public employee unions"?...."....of the Defense Department"?,...."....of this special interest group and that"?....and we all say, "what's in the best long term interests of America"?

If every decision made by Congress and all Americans was consistently in the best interest of America we would all be better off.

Alas, that seems more unlikely than ever.

How about the best interest of "my state". That is also followed much too closely. The State Govt should take care of the state - the federal reps should focus on the country as a whole.

The big problem (for me) is that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats actually care about the country as a whole. There are things that both parties are proposing that if put together, we could actually make progress - but nobody wants progress - they want their agenda.
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  #107  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:42 PM
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...and that is why the Catholic Bishops say it is not a political issue. It is an issue of morality. Dolan said he would not tell someone who to vote for. He just wants the Government to quit telling a religion what to believe.
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  #108  
Old 04-18-2012, 08:49 AM
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I just have not had time to...

Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
You seem to think Liberal is a bad word but many points argued for by The Church and The Conference of Catholic Bishops are in line with Liberal beliefs - I'm curious - do you support these with as much passion?

- requiring health care be provided to all Americans (Pope John XXIII, in his encyclical Peace on Earth listed health care among those basic rights which flow from the sanctity and dignity of human life)

- urging that the federal minimum wage be increased (letter to Congress, Feb. 2012)

- providing welfare: “We reiterate our call for a minimum national welfare benefit that will permit children and their parents to live in dignity. A decent society will not balance its budget on the backs of poor children.”

- being pro-workers and union: “the basic rights of workers must be respected–the right to productive work, to decent and fair wages, to the organization and joining of unions…”

- opposing Arizona's anti-immigration law - Cardinal Roger Mahony called SB1070 “the country’s most retrogressive, mean-spirited, and useless anti-immigrant law,” based on “totally flawed reasoning: that immigrants come to our country to rob, plunder, and consume public resources.”

- urging that illegal immigrants not be treated as criminals and that their contribution to this country be recognized.

http://charleshawkins.blogspot.com/2...political.html
respond.... The terms "liberal" and "conservative" are not bad in and of themselves. Most people are not 100% in either camp. I do not support most of the Democrat's platform which under the current regime has become extremely liberal. So in that regard, I am a conservative. I do not support the death penalty, however, because as a pro-life Catholic, I cannot justify taking an adult life any more than I can justify taking an unborn child's life. So, in that regard I am liberal. In a well know trick from the liberal playbook, the positions stated above assume and or insinuate that the only way to comply with these thoughts is by conforming to the Democrat's liberal solutions. In fact, you have stated these as so called liberal positions. Utter nonsense. That type of thinking is simply 100% wrong. My guess is that you are considered or consider yourself to be on the liberal side of things and I'm almost certain that you subscribe to the Democrat's nonsense relative to each issue. So, ultimately, do I support the Church's comments above? Yes. Would I solve these issues in the same way you might? Probably not. Let's look at one example. Unions.... We have a system TODAY that clearly recognizes the right of any worker anywhere in the USA to organize a union. Liberal union thugs, however, want to implement a "card check" unionization process that does away with a fair and 100% confidential election process. So, folks like you claim that folks like me are anti-worker and anti-union because I do not support such nonsense. Complete BS. I believe in basic principles that support all workers, those that want to join a union and those that do not want to join. Union thuggery and intimidation via the card check process is not meeting the standard of complying with the statement above.... Similar arguments and better solutions for each point could be offered from a conservative view that would absolutely support the Church's comments above.
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  #109  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer View Post
respond.... The terms "liberal" and "conservative" are not bad in and of themselves. Most people are not 100% in either camp. I do not support most of the Democrat's platform which under the current regime has become extremely liberal. So in that regard, I am a conservative. I do not support the death penalty, however, because as a pro-life Catholic, I cannot justify taking an adult life any more than I can justify taking an unborn child's life. So, in that regard I am liberal. In a well know trick from the liberal playbook, the positions stated above assume and or insinuate that the only way to comply with these thoughts is by conforming to the Democrat's liberal solutions. In fact, you have stated these as so called liberal positions. Utter nonsense. That type of thinking is simply 100% wrong. My guess is that you are considered or consider yourself to be on the liberal side of things and I'm almost certain that you subscribe to the Democrat's nonsense relative to each issue. So, ultimately, do I support the Church's comments above? Yes. Would I solve these issues in the same way you might? Probably not. Let's look at one example. Unions.... We have a system TODAY that clearly recognizes the right of any worker anywhere in the USA to organize a union. Liberal union thugs, however, want to implement a "card check" unionization process that does away with a fair and 100% confidential election process. So, folks like you claim that folks like me are anti-worker and anti-union because I do not support such nonsense. Complete BS. I believe in basic principles that support all workers, those that want to join a union and those that do not want to join. Union thuggery and intimidation via the card check process is not meeting the standard of complying with the statement above.... Similar arguments and better solutions for each point could be offered from a conservative view that would absolutely support the Church's comments above.
The challenge I have as a flaming independent is that I see merit in the ideas of both parties - but both parties are stuck in partisan/ideological stances, that they can't come together in the middle to solve anything. It is truly a disgusting thing to watch and the supporters of the GOP blame the Dems and vice-versa. They are both to blame and I would love to throw every one of them out of office with the next election. I know that won't happen, but it would bring a smile to my face to send a message that lack of cooperation/compromise for the betterment of the country is inexcusable.
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  #110  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:05 PM
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In an earlier post, I expressed my displeasure that the university’s health insurance included birth control pills. I have written Fr. Fitz, Rector asking that the university delete this coverage. However, I do not believe my single letter will have any significant impact. Based on the number of reviews on this thread, I have to assume there are many alumni whom are in agreement with me and others that have also posted their opposition. If Fr Fritz receives a substantial number of letters asking that the university policy be changed, he will certainly give these to Dr. Curran.

You may fax a letter to Rev James Fits SM at 937-229-3396, or write him at UD, 300 College Park, Dayton, Ohio 45469-1638. If you prefer to call, his direct line is 937-229-2899.

The university enhanced academic rating, their awards and recognition, the expanding beautiful campus, and the success of their athletic teams have given me pride and satisfaction. However, the need to support the bishops on this issue is so vital in my opinion, that I will seriously consider dropping all support for the university if this decision isn’t changed.

Last edited by TD Flyer; 04-18-2012 at 12:07 PM..
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  #111  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
......as a nation we stop saying, "what's in the best interest of seniors"?,..".....of big business"?,....".....of public employee unions"?...."....of the Defense Department"?,...."....of this special interest group and that"?....and we all say, "what's in the best long term interests of America"?

If every decision made by Congress and all Americans was consistently in the best interest of America we would all be better off.

Alas, that seems more unlikely than ever.
Does that include the usury that the energy, pharmaceutical, insurance, and banking industries engage in, oftentimes with legislative support? Or are you just talking about average, middle-class Americans sacking up and continuing to take it in the rear from these entities?
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  #112  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TD Flyer View Post
In an earlier post, I expressed my displeasure that the university’s health insurance included birth control pills. I have written Fr. Fitz, Rector asking that the university delete this coverage. However, I do not believe my single letter will have any significant impact. Based on the number of reviews on this thread, I have to assume there are many alumni whom are in agreement with me and others that have also posted their opposition. If Fr Fritz receives a substantial number of letters asking that the university policy be changed, he will certainly give these to Dr. Curran.

You may fax a letter to Rev James Fits SM at 937-229-3396, or write him at UD, 300 College Park, Dayton, Ohio 45469-1638. If you prefer to call, his direct line is 937-229-2899.

The university enhanced academic rating, their awards and recognition, the expanding beautiful campus, and the success of their athletic teams have given me pride and satisfaction. However, the need to support the bishops on this issue is so vital in my opinion, that I will seriously consider dropping all support for the university if this decision isn’t changed.
Thanks for the contact information. As we speak, I'm crafting my letter in continued support of the University's wise decision to make a wide variety of contraceptive methods, including birth control, easily available to the student body.
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  #113  
Old 04-18-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer View Post
I do not support the death penalty, however, because as a pro-life Catholic, I cannot justify taking an adult life any more than I can justify taking an unborn child's life.
Isnt that sort of redundant. By definition, shouldnt all Catholics be against the dealth penalty and abortion?

Of course, verses out of the same book the Catholic church proselytizes also suggests stoning your wife to death for unholy acts.

So confusing, these things!
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  #114  
Old 04-18-2012, 01:57 PM
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This issue is not going away because the Catholic Bishops will not let it. I believe, if the Health Care Mandate is not nollified by the Supreme Court, that UD will follow Xavier's lead and drop the insurance coverage. UD is a Catholic University and will support the Catholic Bishops.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:06 PM
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Oh yeah....

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
Thanks for the contact information. As we speak, I'm crafting my letter in continued support of the University's wise decision to make a wide variety of contraceptive methods, including birth control, easily available to the student body.
well as we speak I am crafting two letters to let him know how much I disagree with your one letter.... So there!
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer View Post
well as we speak I am crafting two letters to let him know how much I disagree with your one letter.... So there!
Is one of your letters in favor of a new on-campus daycare/adoption center for employees and students? If so, I think I may be able to at the very least co-sign on that one.

Oh yeah:
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Old 04-18-2012, 05:23 PM
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Much of the argument insisting that the Church, or any of the institutions affiliated with her (such as UD), provide "free" birth control, sterilizations, etc. mandated by Government fiat, all stem from apparently selfish wants and desires without any regard or consideration for the tenets of the Religion in question. What is amazing is that this was never an issue until this Administration suddenly mandated a "freebie" be provided under the new Health Care law; now, people see it as a "right" that somebody else (a third party) has to pay for; the First Amendment be dam*ed!

It's actually pretty pathetic to witness how many people have become dependent upon the Government and others to provide for their everyday wants and desires. Too many people seem very comfortable with jettisoning any pretense of abiding by the First Amendment, and basic freedoms, to save a few bucks out of their own pocket. It's a sorry a** state of affairs when the Government can manipulate people to give up their independence and become glorified wards of the State for so very little. No wonder we're running annual deficits of well over a Trillion dollars a year, a National Debt fast approaching $16 Trillion and no plan to deal with it other than "tax the rich". So, let's "par-tay", because someone else will pick up the tab. It's the same thing with many Public Pensions and Health Care Plans...it doesn't matter that many of them are underfunded and untenable...that's also someone else's problem; well it is...until it isn't. Gimme, gimme, gimme! Keep thinking that way and we'll be the next Greece or Spain, only we'll be in a mess significantly larger than they're in and the pain will be of a magnitude significantly greater than they're experiencing now.
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  #118  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Much of the argument insisting that the Church, or any of the institutions affiliated with her (such as UD), provide "free" birth control, sterilizations, etc. mandated by Government fiat, all stem from apparently selfish wants and desires without any regard or consideration for the tenets of the Religion in question. What is amazing is that this was never an issue until this Administration suddenly mandated a "freebie" be provided under the new Health Care law; now, people see it as a "right" that somebody else (a third party) has to pay for; the First Amendment be dam*ed!

It's actually pretty pathetic to witness how many people have become dependent upon the Government and others to provide for their everyday wants and desires. Too many people seem very comfortable with jettisoning any pretense of abiding by the First Amendment, and basic freedoms, to save a few bucks out of their own pocket. It's a sorry a** state of affairs when the Government can manipulate people to give up their independence and become glorified wards of the State for so very little. No wonder we're running annual deficits of well over a Trillion dollars a year, a National Debt fast approaching $16 Trillion and no plan to deal with it other than "tax the rich". So, let's "par-tay", because someone else will pick up the tab. It's the same thing with many Public Pensions and Health Care Plans...it doesn't matter that many of them are underfunded and untenable...that's also someone else's problem; well it is...until it isn't. Gimme, gimme, gimme! Keep thinking that way and we'll be the next Greece or Spain, only we'll be in a mess significantly larger than they're in and the pain will be of a magnitude significantly greater than they're experiencing now.
So vote for Ron Paul because he is the only candidate truly interested in dealing with the debt, right? Seriously, nobody wants to deal with that elephant in a completely meaningful manner.

Spending cuts are a requirement to this (including Defense spending)- increasing revenue could be added and get to it in a faster manner. Wait, that would mean combining the ideas and compromising - forget I said that..

I am not in the top 1% (nor anywhere near it), but I would personally be willing to pay more in taxes IF AND ONLY IF the necessary spending cuts are put in place first (especially growth of Medicare and SS). I believe attacking the debt is of high priority. It didn't matter to the GOP when they had control of the White House, but it does now with a Dem there. It has never really mattered to the Dems, but it should. If Romney wins, I expect it to no longer matter to the GOP, but time will tell.

Regarding the entitlement mentality - it is completely out of control. Just read an article that a Michigan teacher is upset because she won't be able to retire at 47 with health benefits, because a new bill/law would put those benefits eligibility at age 60.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TD Flyer View Post
Based on the number of reviews on this thread, I have to assume there are many alumni whom are in agreement with me and others that have also posted their opposition.

However, the need to support the bishops on this issue is so vital in my opinion, that I will seriously consider dropping all support for the university if this decision isn’t changed.

I wrote to Doctor Dan after the publicity article in the "Dayton Daily News." I expressed my concerns that the article did no favor to UD. A few days later a lady over the Health Care policies called me but really didn't say anything except the insurance policy was being looked at. She was just trying to placate me, but she really said nothing.
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  #120  
Old 04-23-2012, 02:22 PM
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It looks like the Bishops have upped the ante. This looks like a real confrontation is going to take place over this Health Care mandate.

http://usccb.org/issues-and-action/r...ed-liberty.cfm
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  #121  
Old 04-23-2012, 10:17 PM
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Interesting...

State immigration laws. Several states have recently passed laws that forbid what the government deems "harboring" of undocumented immigrants—and what the Church deems Christian charity and pastoral care to those immigrants. Perhaps the most egregious of these is in Alabama, where the Catholic bishops, in cooperation with the Episcopal and Methodist bishops of Alabama, filed suit against the law:
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
It looks like the Bishops have upped the ante. This looks like a real confrontation is going to take place over this Health Care mandate.
Looks like you are correct.

http://www.thecatholicpost.com/post/...e.aspx?ID=2440

For what it's worth, the recent PEW poll shows the Catholic vote to be 50% Romney/45% Obama.

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Old 04-24-2012, 05:24 PM
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You know the country is a mess when law enforcement is being called out for enforcing laws on the books, where the left and the right are so far extreme that they very rarely represent any of "us", and we are at a stalemate no matter who is in office.

Until I find a politician that represents "me", it is hard to vote along party lines any more. Need an independent leaning conservative that has a common sense approach. If common sense were so common, then why in the hell doesn't anyone have it?
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:59 PM
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Freedom Fight

Former government officials join religious leaders in conscience fight
In addition to Flynn and Nicholson, former government officials involved with Conscience Cause include ex-Bush advisers Ed Gillespie and Mary Matalin and former Rep. Bill Paxon, a Republican who represented New York state from 1993 to 1999 and chaired the National Republican Congressional Committee.
http://www.americamagazine.org/conte...fm?newsid=3206
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
You know the country is a mess when law enforcement is being called out for enforcing laws on the books, where the left and the right are so far extreme that they very rarely represent any of "us", and we are at a stalemate no matter who is in office.

Until I find a politician that represents "me", it is hard to vote along party lines any more. Need an independent leaning conservative that has a common sense approach. If common sense were so common, then why in the hell doesn't anyone have it?
What you say is true, but you will not get an independent leaning conservative with a common sense approach to run much less win. The Democrats and Republicans have a monopoly on winning.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
Looks like you are correct.

http://www.thecatholicpost.com/post/...e.aspx?ID=2440

For what it's worth, the recent PEW poll shows the Catholic vote to be 50% Romney/45% Obama.
I think there might be some 501c3 issues here...
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:48 AM
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Mandate

What the Bishop is saying is that the Catholic hospitals and Charities will have to shut down because of the forced government mandate.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
I think there might be some 501c3 issues here...
That may well be... Politics from the pulpit is a no-no.
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:21 PM
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Infringement

Telling a religion what to believe and how to act could well be an infringement. Freedom of religion is a guaranteed right given by our forefathers. Government is supposed to be separate from religion.

And by the way, the Government started this problem.

Georgetown University drops contraceptive coverage -
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...tion-coverage/

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  #130  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:11 PM
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Sebilius - lacked balance

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...ey-precedents/

Georgetown University drops contraceptive coverage.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...tion-coverage/

Lawsuit that could overturn contraceptive coverage.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...-three-months/

Catholic Medical Association.
http://www.cathmed.org/issues_resour...nators_column/

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  #131  
Old 05-09-2012, 10:28 AM
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Contraceptive Mandate

Legatus files suit.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...t-hhs-mandate/
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  #132  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:07 PM
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Thumbs up Glad to

Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
Legatus files suit.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...t-hhs-mandate/
hear that folks right here where I live are taking up the fight.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:48 PM
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Petition to Stop HHS Mandate

https://www.stophhs.com/stop_hhs_man...e-hhs-mandate/

Public comments listed on the proposed mandate.
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/05/03/...ience-mandate/

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  #134  
Old 05-12-2012, 10:03 AM
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Reading one of the above articles, I'm wonder how does Georgetown University justify providing contraceptive insurance for its employees but not its students? Seems incredibly hypocritical.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:59 PM
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Georgetown University

Cleveland, The Jesuits at Georgetown have some issues.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/mandate/
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Old 05-12-2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
Cleveland, The Jesuits at Georgetown have some issues.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/mandate/
I still wouldn't mind being in a sports conference with them someday.
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:39 PM
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The last time Dayton played them was March 24, 1984 at Pauley Pavilion in the NCAA. We lost 49 to 61. We beat them in 1952 at the UD Fieldhouse 80 to 74. The only other game with them was in 1978 at the UD Arena. We lost in the NIT 62 to 71.
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Old 05-13-2012, 09:10 AM
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Huh?

Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
Reading one of the above articles, I'm wonder how does Georgetown University justify providing contraceptive insurance for its employees but not its students? Seems incredibly hypocritical.
Since when do universities provide health insurance for the students?
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:49 PM
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I think

Originally Posted by cj View Post
Since when do universities provide health insurance for the students?
many times students can purchase insurance through a university plan.
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Old 05-14-2012, 07:52 AM
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If memory serves me well (and it may not), I believe I had to be enrolled in the student health plan at UD back in the late '60s-early '70s; it didn't cost much, but it was for emergencies and such during the school year and helped defray some of the costs of the Gosiger Health Center.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:10 PM
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Arizona to Opt Out of Mandate

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...s-freedom-bill
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  #142  
Old 05-15-2012, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer View Post
many times students can purchase insurance through a university plan.
Does anyone know how comprehensive these "bridge" plans are?
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:44 AM
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Religious Freedom

Don't know the answer to cj's question, but here is a recent take on religious freedom vs the mandate - here in Ohio.

http://www.ohiolibertycoalition.org/...m-part-2-of-2/
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:47 PM
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A Catholic College acting like a Catholic College

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/05/15/o...rop-insurance/

It is cowardly for the so called major Catholic colleges, (read Georgetown, Notre Dame, Boston College and yes UD), to leave this fight to the small schools....

Note the lack of major Catholic colleges on this effort:

http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org...TY%3d&tabid=36

It is a sad day indeed when UD is more beholden to the government and its friends, (Obama and GE), then the very institution on which it was founded....

Hats off to EVERY school on this list to do the right thing.

Are you listening Dr. Dan?

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Old 05-15-2012, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer View Post
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/05/15/o...rop-insurance/

It is cowardly for the so called major Catholic colleges, (read Georgetown, Notre Dame, Boston College and yes UD), to leave this fight to the small schools....

Note the lack of major Catholic colleges on this effort:

http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org...TY%3d&tabid=36

It is a sad day indeed when UD is more beholden to the government and its friends, (Obama and GE), then the very institution on which it was founded....

Breaking news - Catholic University to drop HHS insurance:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...tes-obamacare/

Hats off to EVERY school on this list to do the right thing.

Are you listening Dr. Dan?
Xavier decided to drop the coverage, but I don't see them on this list. Maybe there is another list too. I believe Georgetown also decided to drop the coverage for students. Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio is the latest to drop HHS coverage for its students. They cite morality and the cost factor.

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Old 05-16-2012, 11:05 AM
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Drop Student Health Insurance

Doctor Dan,

Where does UD stand on this mandate? Why the silence?

Here is where the Catholic Bishops stand.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...on-inadequate/

Another Catholic University considering dropping health care.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...alth-coverage/

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  #147  
Old 05-20-2012, 08:25 PM
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Fortnight for Freedom June 21 to July 4th

Various religious freedom initiatives planned this summer.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...reedom-events/
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:10 PM
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Well, it looks like the gloves like the Church has officially taken off the gloves!
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/brea...holic-dioceses
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:15 PM
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Cheer, Cheer for Old Notre Dame...

for filing suit against the Obama adminsitration and their medical care forcing them to abandon their religious teachings.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Well, it looks like the gloves like the Church has officially taken off the gloves!
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/brea...holic-dioceses
The extremism espoused in many of the reader comments on those CSN online articles is frightening.
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:27 PM
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Sadly, I cannot find anything about UD stepping up to the plate. Dr. Dan and company continue to try and ride the fence as to not upset the Federal money pouring into UD via the Research Institute, GE, (directly and indirectly), and many other avenues.... Notre Dame is about as liberal, (with the Catholic faith), as any entity out there. For them to have stepped up while UD sits on its collective hands is inexcusable. The inaction on UD's part is really beginning to wear on my patience. Where are you Dr. Dan? Are you Catholic or are you not? I know what the website says, but as my mother told me many years ago, your actions speak much louder than your words....
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:32 PM
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...IZU_story.html

Dr. Dan, the Marianists and UD should be paying close attention to this unfolding story.... (As should all colleges that claim to be Catholic).
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:33 PM
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Maybe UD could follow Notre Dame and Catholic University's lead. Even Xavier and Georgetown responded. Where is UD. I am starting to think UD is acting cowardly.

Notre Dame files its own lawsuit. What about the UD law school?
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...o-hhs-mandate/

Ave Maria Law School in Florida drops health insurance.

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/...-carry-health/

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Old 05-22-2012, 12:59 PM
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Wow, I think I am going to puke....

http://feministphilosophers.wordpres...contraception/

UD's complete inaction on the subject is being used by leftists to "justify" their warped view. It is absolutely impossible to come to grips with the fact that UD has not been following Church teaching for a very long time and now that the sin has been clearly exposed, UD does nothing but sit and wait and hope that the some other Catholic institution(s) will solve the problem for them.
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:06 PM
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How does UD look in this article?

http://blog.cardinalnewmansociety.or...contraception/

On balance, not only has UD done nothing of substance to address this issue, we come off looking like we very deliberately chose and continue to choose to violate Church teaching while continuing to claim being Catholic.... I am now officially sorry that I googled the topic. I had hoped to find a glimmer of hope that UD was doing the right thing, instead, I just made myself sick....
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:13 PM
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What's different about UD today...

Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer View Post
http://blog.cardinalnewmansociety.or...contraception/

On balance, not only has UD done nothing of substance to address this issue, we come off looking like we very deliberately chose and continue to choose to violate Church teaching while continuing to claim being Catholic.... I am now officially sorry that I googled the topic. I had hoped to find a glimmer of hope that UD was doing the right thing, instead, I just made myself sick....
....compared to UD, say, two years ago, before any of us even heard of this issue? Is UD's insurance coverage any different?

The Government has been very accommodating re the concerns of the Catholic church...suing was not necessary. This is an issue of profound national importance. Reasonable accommodation is possible...and we know it will be reasonable because the president, no president, is willing to sacrifice his job over an issue like this...and there is an election coming up.

So long as Catholic institutions are willing to take government money...which they surely are, by the truck load, it's incumbent upon them to be reasonable.

The law suit was not necessary or wise.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:19 PM
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As an alumnus, I support the University's decision to continue to provide contraceptive care. This is the right call on the part of the Administration and regardless of whether or not I'm in the minority here, I want to make it known that many folks affiliated with the University are behind them here.

Thank you, Dr. Dan!
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
So long as Catholic institutions are willing to take government money...which they surely are, by the truck load, it's incumbent upon them to be reasonable.
Bingo! You can't pick and choose when you want a separation of church and state. It's all or nothing. Give the money back if you want to be true to the the First Amendment.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
As an alumnus, I support the University's decision to continue to provide contraceptive care. This is the right call on the part of the Administration and regardless of whether or not I'm in the minority here, I want to make it known that many folks affiliated with the University are behind them here.

Thank you, Dr. Dan!
As you know, this is not only a theology issue, but also an economic issue - as this is to be provided at no cost.


Do you also support Viagra and Vasectomies for free? What about transgender surgery for free? What about cosmetic surgery (boob jobs) for free?

If so, where do you draw the line on freebies or is there no line?


IMHOP, the Obama administration only wishes to pander to the female vote on this issue - buy votes by giving free contraceptives. It has nothing to do with promoting health care - else why would they even get in this tiff with the Catholic Church. It would have been so much easier to skip this fight. In any case, the SCOTUS will most likely toss Obamacare anyway - and we can then work on something more reasonable.

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Old 05-22-2012, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
As you know, this is not only a theology issue, but also an economic issue - as this is to be provided at no cost.


Do you also support Viagra and Vasectomies for free? What about transgender surgery for free? What about cosmetic surgery (boob jobs) for free?

If so, where do you draw the line on freebies or is there no line?
What's a "freebie"? The same perfectly healthy UD employee that wants to go on birth control for whatever reason (say to treat minor acne, a legitimate use for the pill) is paying a slightly higher premium because somewhere else on the plan another woman (maybe older) is being treated for cancer which is many orders of magnitude more expensive. So who's getting the "freebie"?

This is, of course, the nature of group insurance. There are undoubtedly important questions to be had about where that line is. At the very least there should be a legitimate health concern, which takes boob jobs immediately off of the table. The other things you listed? Gray area.


Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
IMHOP, the Obama administration only wishes to pander to the female vote on this issue - buy votes by giving free contraceptives. It has nothing to do with promoting health care - else why would they even get in this tiff with the Catholic Church. It would have been so much easier to skip this fight. In any case, the SCOTUS will most likely toss Obamacare anyway - and we can then work on something more reasonable.
I hope you're right on that, because there are some serious issues facing healthcare insurance/costs in this country and it's something that most politicians (Republicans in particular, but those on both sides of the aisle) have ignored for far too long. I'll be curious to hear more about Romney's plan.
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Old 05-22-2012, 06:00 PM
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UAC...you're joking, right? The Government has been very accommodating to the Catholic Church? This Administration, right? ClevelandFlyer,,,this is about health care? You're serious , right? I'll have whatever it is you both are drinking or smoking!

This is about POWER, pure and simple...and it is agenda driven on multiple fronts. The Feds would love to drive religious institutions out of any type of social work/influence; it wants the citizenry to be more dependent and look solely to the Government and it's agencies to provide all essential services and solve day to day problems...whether the Government is good at it or not. The Feds have pretty much forced Catholic Charities out of adoptive services and it's long been pressuring the Boy Scouts out of the public Square as well. Contraception is about health insurance, really? Well then, if that's the case, I the Feds to proclaim that my auto insurance should pay for oil and lube jobs on my car....oh, and I want it for FREE. This is about "religious freedom" and the Government's attempt to silence and remove any opposing views from the methods it wants to employ to run peoples lives. . The bigger the Government gets, the bigger it's appetite for tax dollars gets and the more intrusive it will become and the less freedom every citizen will have. Gee these boyz have done such a good job at the Post Office, Amtrak and the TSA, I can't wait to see what a bang-up job they're going to do with health care.

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Old 05-22-2012, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
UAC...you're joking, right? The Government has been very accommodating to the Catholic Church? This Administration, right? ClevelandFlyer,,,this is about health care? You're serious , right? I'll have whatever it is you both are drinking or smoking!

This is about POWER, pure and simple...and it is agenda driven on multiple fronts. The Feds would love to drive religious institutions out of any type of social work/influence; it wants the citizenry to be more dependent and look solely to the Government and it's agencies to provide all essential services and solve day to day problems...whether the Government is good at it or not. The Feds have pretty much forced Catholic Charities out of adoptive services and it's long been pressuring the Boy Scouts out of the public Square as well. Contraception is about health insurance, really? Well then, if that's the case, I the Feds to proclaim that my auto insurance should pay for oil and lube jobs on my car....oh, and I want it for FREE. This is about "religious freedom" and the Government's attempt to silence and remove any opposing views from the methods it wants to employ to run peoples lives. . The bigger the Government gets, the bigger it's appetite for tax dollars gets and the more intrusive it will become and the less freedom every citizen will have. Gee these boyz have done such a good job at the Post Office, Amtrak and the TSA, I can't wait to see what a bang-up job they're going to do with health care.
I didn't hear much complaining from the right when Bush expanded government powers significantly under the guise of some greater good and in fact they still came out for him in 2004. If you want to chant the mantra of "less government" then do so consistently please. As for myself, I recognize that there are some situations where the government does need to step in and make things better for a majority citizens, even if it supposedly comes at the expense of the gilded class. The birth control pill treats numerous different illness that have nothing to do with preventing pregnancy. Whether or not it should be mandate is a different discussion, but it's not the first time nor will it be the last that government has mandated that employers or insurance companies pay to cover a certain illness.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
The birth control pill treats numerous different illness that have nothing to do with preventing pregnancy. Whether or not it should be mandate is a different discussion, but it's not the first time nor will it be the last that government has mandated that employers or insurance companies pay to cover a certain illness.
The Catholic Church is not against the use of the birth control pill for medicinal purposes. But the Catholic Church does not approve of sterilization and RU486 coverage - abortion producing drugs. The mandate says the Church must provide this coverage. The Contraceptive mandate was never about birth control per se. It is about religious freedom guaranteed by the First Ammendment. The Catholic Church is being forced, in effect, to violate its moral precepts or go out of the hospital, university, charity business. This is not right and cannot stand. That is why there are so many lawsuits. The Obama administration has refused to accomodate Catholic morality in Catholic hospitals, charities and universities. When I wrote to Dr. Dan about this, he pawned me off to Teri Rizvi who explained to me that the insurance plan could not separate contraceptive coverage for medicinal purposes. So they were leaving it like it is. However, she offered no explanation as to sterilization coverage. She did say there is no abortion coverage. However, under Obamacare, there is abortion coverage. So I believe UD should take a stand like Notre Dame and Catholic University. Even Xavier and Georgetown dropped this kind of coverage for their students. That is why I said Dr. Dan should quit hiding and make a statement about this.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:09 PM
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You say, "what"?

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
UAC...you're joking, right? The Government has been very accommodating to the Catholic Church? This Administration, right? ClevelandFlyer,,,this is about health care? You're serious , right? I'll have whatever it is you both are drinking or smoking!

This is about POWER, pure and simple...and it is agenda driven on multiple fronts. The Feds would love to drive religious institutions out of any type of social work/influence; it wants the citizenry to be more dependent and look solely to the Government and it's agencies to provide all essential services and solve day to day problems...whether the Government is good at it or not. The Feds have pretty much forced Catholic Charities out of adoptive services and it's long been pressuring the Boy Scouts out of the public Square as well. Contraception is about health insurance, really? Well then, if that's the case, I the Feds to proclaim that my auto insurance should pay for oil and lube jobs on my car....oh, and I want it for FREE. This is about "religious freedom" and the Government's attempt to silence and remove any opposing views from the methods it wants to employ to run peoples lives. . The bigger the Government gets, the bigger it's appetite for tax dollars gets and the more intrusive it will become and the less freedom every citizen will have. Gee these boyz have done such a good job at the Post Office, Amtrak and the TSA, I can't wait to see what a bang-up job they're going to do with health care.
Roughly 20% of the electorate is Catholic...largely Democrats. Does anyone seriously think that a politician like Obama intended to do or will do anything....anything,...to alienate a large segment of voters, people that are most likely to vote for him?

And "the Feds would love to drive religious institutions out of any type of social work...." Really? Bat, I have always thought your posts were well grounded on thoughtful, well-reasoned judgment. I'm going to have to re-think that.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Roughly 20% of the electorate is Catholic...largely Democrats. Does anyone seriously think that a politician like Obama intended to do or will do anything....anything,...to alienate a large segment of voters, people that are most likely to vote for him?

And "the Feds would love to drive religious institutions out of any type of social work...." Really? Bat, I have always thought your posts were well grounded on thoughtful, well-reasoned judgment. I'm going to have to re-think that.
He has already alienated the Catholic vote. Look at the PEW poll. Obama won his election with a majority Catholic vote. Now he is losing the majority Catholic vote. This is in more than one poll.

And yes, if nothing changes, the Catholic Church will be driven out of hospital and charity work. Do you understand the morality issue here that the bishops are talking about? The Catholic Church will not go against their own teachings to appease the Government.

And what kind of Catholics are we talking about. Yes, some are good Catholics. But look at Pelosi, Sebelius, and Biden who support abortion and the Contraceptive Mandate. They are against religious freedom. Fine lot they are, shining examples.

Here is an article showing most Americans suppost religious freedom and health care exemptions. Obama is against the majority thinking on this issue. And yes, I would think, this would alienate voters.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...re-exemptions/

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Old 05-22-2012, 07:53 PM
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Well, UAC, please expound on how the Government has been "very accommodating re the concerns of the Catholic Church"... a few specifics please. I'd like to know a few instances where the Federal Government went out of it's way, even a tad, to be accommodative (i.e. doing something or changing or altering rules or regs) to allow the Church to do something (anything) it didn't already have the right to do. Please don't give me any examples of research grants or contracts from any Agency that was designated to UD. The Feds don't give UD research projects "'cause they like 'em", but because they win the grant in competitive bidding or because UD has specific expertise in a specific field of research. I really enjoyed the line that as long as UD "takes" Government money, it has to shut up, be quiet and abide by all Government diktats. The last time I looked, I didn't see any of the "Ivies" lose Government funded research or development monies, loans, etc. over their refusal to allow R.O.T.C on campus.

Who on this board believes that Catholics are monolithic in the way they think, act or vote? Look at the responses on this board for the disparate views expressed on this one issue. After years of Church scandals, numerous reports highlighting the significant drop in regular Church attendance and the oft quoted (yet unsubstantiated "fact") that the vast majority (I believe 80% is the the most favored number to get tossed around) of Catholics use birth control, this isn't as risky a political ploy as it might have seemed at first blush. What may have been unexpected is the vigor with which the Church has responded and the support it has gotten from other religious organizations for it's stand. As I have noted before, I'm a rather lax Catholic and I just happen to disagree with the Church on birth control, but it is the Church's right to develop and implement it's doctrines and it is it's duty to enforce those rules.

FYI, Cleveland, I was against the profligate spending and over-reach of Government under GWB and the Republicans when they controlled both Houses of Congress. One of the reasons the Republicans got routed in the House and lost the Senate was because fiscal conservatives got fed up. Health care does have to be fixed...it's really not an option because it is a disjointed and dysfunctional system, but Obamacare is not the way to do it.
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  #167  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:53 PM
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Now let's just suppose that Islamists in America....

Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
The Catholic Church is not against the use of the birth control pill for medicinal purposes. But the Catholic Church does not approve of sterilization and RU486 coverage - abortion producing drugs. The mandate says the Church must provide this coverage. The Contraceptive mandate was never about birth control per se. It is about religious freedom guaranteed by the First Ammendment. The Catholic Church is being forced, in effect, to violate its moral precepts or go out of the hospital, university, charity business. This is not right and cannot stand. That is why there are so many lawsuits. The Obama administration has refused to accomodate Catholic morality in Catholic hospitals, charities and universities. When I wrote to Dr. Dan about this, he pawned me off to Teri Rizvi who explained to me that the insurance plan could not separate contraceptive coverage for medicinal purposes. So they were leaving it like it is. However, she offered no explanation as to sterilization coverage. She did say there is no abortion coverage. However, under Obamacare, there is abortion coverage. So I believe UD should take a stand like Notre Dame and Catholic University. Even Xavier and Georgetown dropped this kind of coverage for their students. That is why I said Dr. Dan should quit hiding and make a statement about this.
......male Islamists.... strongly opposed the treatment of men and women in the same hospital, or on the same floor of a hospital,....or in the same operating room of a hospital. Or suppose that male Islamic leaders insisted that no female nurses of doctors be allowed to treat them or their children.....or that no male doctors or nurses be allowed to see the skin of female patients...and about a million other examples like that.

And their reasons? Because all such actions/behavior violate the moral precepts of the Islamic faith. There is no end to the screwball religous objections coming from all faiths that could be used in an attempt to block legitimate actions of the Government concerning an issue of profound national importance.

Now, I do not support Obama's health care initiatives and I hope the Court comes down againts the mandate...not because I oppose the mandate...but because I do not think Obamacare is a good plan. However, I do admire the man for stepping up to a problem that the people and politicians of all stripes have been kicking down the road for years.

Getting the growth in the cost of health care under control is a vital national issue...few things are more important. There is no reason why a plan cannot be developed that is both effective, reasonable and acceptable to all faiths. To do so will require the good-faith cooperation of all denominations, especially the Catholic church because of its national role.

So, what does the Church do to help? It sues the U.S. government. Wonderful!
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  #168  
Old 05-22-2012, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
......So, what does the Church do to help? It sues the U.S. government. Wonderful!

The Catholic Church actually supported the Health Care Plan. It was only when the Mandate was put in by Executive Order that the Bishops said they could no longer go along with the plan as it is. Obama then said the Church would not have to pay for the sterilization, abortion, and contraceptive coverage. The insurance companies would have to pay for it. Unfortunately, many Catholic Institutions are self insured. It was just an accounting gimmic. So the Bishops tried to negotiate a settlement with the Government. However, the Government said they would make no more concessions, no exemptions. The Bishops said this was a violation of the First Ammendment - religious freedom. The Government said we will not budge. So the Catholic Church was in a corner and sued.
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  #169  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:15 PM
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Catholic Vote

Here is the shift in Catholic vote I was talking about. Obama carried the Catholic vote last election. Now he is behind.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...ith-catholics/
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  #170  
Old 05-23-2012, 10:14 AM
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UAC, you still did not respond to the question of how the Government (and specifically this Administration) has been "very accommodating re the concerns of the Church"...instead we get a false equivalency between the Church's position on providing "birth control" insurance coverage with a hypothetical issue you raise concerning the misogynistic nature of the Islamic religion (Ultra Orthodox Jews are similar) and how the Feds should respond to that. C'mon, this is right out of the "Left's" play book of the "old bait and switch" routine of setting up straw men and then arguing against them to justify an unjustifiable position. Your "hypothetical" might be relevant if the Church were to have taken the position that contraceptives be outlawed completely or if it's hospitals or universities would not treat or cater to others that used birth control or IUDs or had discriminatory policies in place against those that used them, or if the Church adopted positions contrary to the rights of citizens guaranteed under the Constitution...somehow I don't think forcing the Church or it's many and varied institutions to provide insurance covering "birth control" (including sterilizations and abortificants) measures up to violating a "right" no matter how tortured the explanation. On the contrary, the Government's diktat in this regard violates the Church's religious freedoms that are guaranteed under the Constitution.


Policy initiatives such as this on contraceptives go hand in hand with social engineering in the military and expansive interpretations of laws and statutory authority by Government Departments and Agencies against the States, businesses and individuals to implement the Left's social agenda. The debasement of our citizens through ill-conceived and poorly thought out TSA screening procedures, the utilization by all governments of CCTV to monitor citizens, selective prosecutions encouraged by the Justice Department and the waste of taxpayer monies by bureaucrats all result in a loss of individual freedoms. Yeah, right, how much more "accommodating" can this Administration get?

Moreover, in just three short years, the Feds, under this most "accommodating" of Administrations, has inserted itself forcefully into the private sector on a scale unprecedented outside of war time. It has taken actions to inhibit or control; the health care industry (about 16% of the US economy); the energy sector (restricting the development of our carbon-based fuel resources); electric power generation; manufacturing; finance; and, agriculture. Many of the rules governing how these industries will be forced to operate haven yet to be determined, but the groundwork has been laid for the Government to micro-manage our economy.

In addition, there is NO plan to curtail spending by the Public sector or to rationalize or restructure the entitlements that are strangling our economy and mortgaging our country's future. When you add up the cumulative debt amassed in the last three years alone and the higher tax revenues that will be required to service and repay those obligations, is it any wonder that the economy has been in the toilet or that jobs and investment have migrated overseas? Arguing over tax "rates" on the "rich" is another of the Left's red herrings. Just about everyone acknowledges the need for higher tax revenues, the key is to raise those funds without further jeopardizing the economy. Class envy is NOT the way to get this country moving again.

Why would this most wise of Administrations take all this on, including actions against the Catholic Church in an election year? Maybe it thinks the Church's moral authority has been weakened by the scandals in recent years, maybe it feels women, especially, are against the male dominated hierarchy of the Church and the time is ripe to exploit this as part of the "War on Women", or maybe it feels that it can get away with baiting the Church because it has the Press on it's side and the Public just loves "freebies". Maybe it believes that "80%" of Catholics use birth control and will support the Government against Church leadership...who knows the reason(s). Why would the Obama Administration finally "evolve" on gay marriage when it "knows" that most African Americans and Hispanics are anti-gay? Maybe they feel that these constituencies have nowhere else to go, the self-appointed "leadership" of these factions will back the Administration up in an election year anyway and the Media will applaud them. These tactics could prove to be brilliant, because if the administration pays no political price on any of this and it prevails in November even by the slimmest of margins, it will have carte blanche to initiate more social engineering. If gay marriage becomes a "right", the Church may find itself forced to participate in this as well.

* IMHO, some of Alexis de Toqueville's quotes about liberty and the dangers of big government are particularly timely for review (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot..._Tocqueville); quotes 1,2,5,7,14,18 and 20 seem to be quite relevant to today.

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Old 05-23-2012, 10:16 AM
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New York Report on Obama Mandate

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/c...sEnabled=false
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  #172  
Old 05-23-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
......male Islamists.... strongly opposed the treatment of men and women in the same hospital, or on the same floor of a hospital,....or in the same operating room of a hospital. Or suppose that male Islamic leaders insisted that no female nurses of doctors be allowed to treat them or their children.....or that no male doctors or nurses be allowed to see the skin of female patients...and about a million other examples like that.

And their reasons? Because all such actions/behavior violate the moral precepts of the Islamic faith. There is no end to the screwball religous objections coming from all faiths that could be used in an attempt to block legitimate actions of the Government concerning an issue of profound national importance.

Now, I do not support Obama's health care initiatives and I hope the Court comes down againts the mandate...not because I oppose the mandate...but because I do not think Obamacare is a good plan. However, I do admire the man for stepping up to a problem that the people and politicians of all stripes have been kicking down the road for years.

Getting the growth in the cost of health care under control is a vital national issue...few things are more important. There is no reason why a plan cannot be developed that is both effective, reasonable and acceptable to all faiths. To do so will require the good-faith cooperation of all denominations, especially the Catholic church because of its national role.

So, what does the Church do to help? It sues the U.S. government. Wonderful!
UAC, for many years I have read your numerous posts. I find that you are an intelligent person, well informed, logical, and more than likely a good moral person. But I am asking you to get back to the basic issue here. Does the government have the right to interfere with any religion and force them to do what they think is morally wrong? It becomes a slippery slope. Once we have lost our freedom of religion, it is an easy step for the government to take away our other freedoms. They already working freedom of the press and gun control. Russia now is effectively banning the right to assemble. Where do you stand on our basic freedoms? That is the question for all good men to answer.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:23 AM
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I surrender...but I do have a question...

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
UAC, you still did not respond to the question of how the Government (and specifically this Administration) has been "very accommodating re the concerns of the Church"...instead we get a false equivalency between the Church's position on providing "birth control" insurance coverage with a hypothetical issue you raise concerning the misogynistic nature of the Islamic religion (Ultra Orthodox Jews are similar) and how the Feds should respond to that. C'mon, this is right out of the "Left's" play book of the "old bait and switch" routine of setting up straw men and then arguing against them to justify an unjustifiable position. Your "hypothetical" might be relevant if the Church were to have taken the position that contraceptives be outlawed completely or if it's hospitals or universities would not treat or cater to others that used birth control or IUDs or had discriminatory policies in place against those that used them, or if the Church adopted positions contrary to the rights of citizens guaranteed under the Constitution...somehow I don't think forcing the Church or it's many and varied institutions to provide insurance covering "birth control" (including sterilizations and abortificants) measures up to violating a "right" no matter how tortured the explanation. On the contrary, the Government's diktat in this regard violates the Church's religious freedoms that are guaranteed under the Constitution.


Policy initiatives such as this on contraceptives go hand in hand with social engineering in the military and expansive interpretations of laws and statutory authority by Government Departments and Agencies against the States, businesses and individuals to implement the Left's social agenda. The debasement of our citizens through ill-conceived and poorly thought out TSA screening procedures, the utilization by all governments of CCTV to monitor citizens, selective prosecutions encouraged by the Justice Department and the waste of taxpayer monies by bureaucrats all result in a loss of individual freedoms. Yeah, right, how much more "accommodating" can this Administration get?

Moreover, in just three short years, the Feds, under this most "accommodating" of Administrations, has inserted itself forcefully into the private sector on a scale unprecedented outside of war time. It has taken actions to inhibit or control; the health care industry (about 16% of the US economy); the energy sector (restricting the development of our carbon-based fuel resources); electric power generation; manufacturing; finance; and, agriculture. Many of the rules governing how these industries will be forced to operate haven yet to be determined, but the groundwork has been laid for the Government to micro-manage our economy.

In addition, there is NO plan to curtail spending by the Public sector or to rationalize or restructure the entitlements that are strangling our economy and mortgaging our country's future. When you add up the cumulative debt amassed in the last three years alone and the higher tax revenues that will be required to service and repay those obligations, is it any wonder that the economy has been in the toilet or that jobs and investment have migrated overseas? Arguing over tax "rates" on the "rich" is another of the Left's red herrings. Just about everyone acknowledges the need for higher tax revenues, the key is to raise those funds without further jeopardizing the economy. Class envy is NOT the way to get this country moving again.

Why would this most wise of Administrations take all this on, including actions against the Catholic Church in an election year? Maybe it thinks the Church's moral authority has been weakened by the scandals in recent years, maybe it feels women, especially, are against the male dominated hierarchy of the Church and the time is ripe to exploit this as part of the "War on Women", or maybe it feels that it can get away with baiting the Church because it has the Press on it's side and the Public just loves "freebies". Maybe it believes that "80%" of Catholics use birth control and will support the Government against Church leadership...who knows the reason(s). Why would the Obama Administration finally "evolve" on gay marriage when it "knows" that most African Americans and Hispanics are anti-gay? Maybe they feel that these constituencies have nowhere else to go, the self-appointed "leadership" of these factions will back the Administration up in an election year anyway and the Media will applaud them. These tactics could prove to be brilliant, because if the administration pays no political price on any of this and it prevails in November even by the slimmest of margins, it will have carte blanche to initiate more social engineering. If gay marriage becomes a "right", the Church may find itself forced to participate in this as well.

* IMHO, some of Alexis de Toqueville's quotes about liberty and the dangers of big government are particularly timely for review (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot..._Tocqueville); quotes 1,2,5,7,14,18 and 20 seem to be quite relevant to today.
First a bit of clarification. I am anything but from the left...I do not think the president is an "evil" man.....but I strongly oppose most of his initiatives...and I intend to vote for Romney...while hoping and praying that the Republicans gain control of the Senate.

For sure, special interests groups have their effect on Republicans...of that there is no doubt. But, special interests like public employee unions and the seniors lobby (AARP) own the Democrats...which is why the ever threatening fiscal problems of the federal, state and municipal goverments will never be addressed so long as Democrats have a sgignificant degree of control.

As for my question, under Obamacare as it presently stands, is the U of Dayton's health insurance coverage for employees in any way different than it was before Obamacare? It seems to me as if Obamacare shined a light on an issue that was there all along,...and no one noticed. I'm asking....I don't know.

Otherwise, re this issue, I surrender unconditionally.....I have a few hot button issues, really hot. This is not one of them.

I appreciate the thoughtful comments of other Priders.
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  #174  
Old 05-23-2012, 12:11 PM
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There you go again, UAC...I simply pointed out you employed a tactic of the Left...not that you were "of the Left", nor did I imply that the President was an "evil" man, just that he and his Administration were taking systematic steps to impose greater restrictions on economic and individual freedoms and centralize control by the Federal Government. The latest attempt to impose this "insurance mandate" on the Church is just one of those steps. Many of the Intelligentsia and Academicians believe that they know best what is good for the Country and therefore must save the citizenry from themselves. They are benign (is "paternal" too strong a word?) in their beliefs, but they're misguided in believing the results of their efforts will redound to the public good. Unfortunately, this Administration, and many in the Congress, believe strongly in "group rights" to the detriment of individual liberty and it shows. The Federal Government has vast power and resources at it's disposal to implement policy decisions and to punish any individual or institution that does not conform, therefore, it is incumbent upon the citizenry and the Courts to be wary of how the elected branches of Government utilize that authority. Given what I've read about the Church's attempt to get this Administration to relax it's mandates on contraceptive coverage in health care plans, it doesn't appear that the Church had any alternative but to sue.

*FYI, my Posts did not mean to distort or unfairly impugn your positions; I simply took exception to them, was somewhat taken aback by them and tried to offer alternatives. As I mentioned, I am not in sync with the Church on it's stance regarding contraceptives, but I fully respect it's rationale and it's right to impose them and to live by them.

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Old 05-23-2012, 12:50 PM
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Bat, pleeeeze!

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
There you go again, UAC...I simply pointed out you employed a tactic of the Left...not that you were "of the Left", nor did I imply that the President was an "evil" man, just that he and his Administration were taking systematic steps to impose greater restrictions on economic and individual freedoms and centralize control by the Federal Government. The latest attempt to impose this "insurance mandate" on the Church is just one of those steps. Many of the Intelligentsia and Academicians believe that they know best what is good for the Country and therefore must save the citizenry from themselves. They are benign (is "paternal" too strong a word?) in their beliefs, but they're misguided in believing the results of their efforts will redound to the public good. Unfortunately, this Administration, and many in the Congress, believe strongly in "group rights" to the detriment of individual liberty and it shows. The Federal Government has vast power and resources at it's disposal to implement policy decisions and to punish any individual or institution that does not conform, therefore, it is incumbent upon the citizenry and the Courts to be wary of how the elected branches of Government utilize that authority. Given what I've read about the Church's attempt to get this Administration to relax it's mandates on contraceptive coverage in health care plans, it doesn't appear that the Church had any alternative but to sue.

*FYI, my Posts did not mean to distort or unfairly impugn your positions; I simply took exception to them, was somewhat taken aback by them and tried to offer alternatives. As I mentioned, I am not in sync with the Church on it's stance regarding contraceptives, but I fully respect it's rationale and it's right to impose them and to live by them.

What do you mean, "there you go again, UAC"?

I didn't say that you said I was "of the left".....and I didn't say that you said or implied that the prez was an "evil" man.

My intent was simply to clarify my political "persuasion".....and to make clear that while I oppose most of the president's policies, I do not think poorly of him, don't think he's a bad guy.....and I don't think you do either.

I strongly believe that America is best served when its politics are played between the forty yard lines, so to speak. Unfortunately, these days too many on the left and the right are playing closer to the twenties if not in the end zones. And, sadly, people I know sincerely believe that the president is a bad man, an evil man. I am not one of those.....and no Prider has implied that I am or that any other Prider is.

I was stating what I think......not what you think about me or what you said about me.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:15 PM
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I stand corrected then...I misinterpreted your Post. Mea culpa!
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
The Catholic Church is not against the use of the birth control pill for medicinal purposes. But the Catholic Church does not approve of sterilization and RU486 coverage - abortion producing drugs. The mandate says the Church must provide this coverage. The Contraceptive mandate was never about birth control per se. It is about religious freedom guaranteed by the First Ammendment. The Catholic Church is being forced, in effect, to violate its moral precepts or go out of the hospital, university, charity business. This is not right and cannot stand. That is why there are so many lawsuits. The Obama administration has refused to accomodate Catholic morality in Catholic hospitals, charities and universities. When I wrote to Dr. Dan about this, he pawned me off to Teri Rizvi who explained to me that the insurance plan could not separate contraceptive coverage for medicinal purposes. So they were leaving it like it is. However, she offered no explanation as to sterilization coverage. She did say there is no abortion coverage. However, under Obamacare, there is abortion coverage. So I believe UD should take a stand like Notre Dame and Catholic University. Even Xavier and Georgetown dropped this kind of coverage for their students. That is why I said Dr. Dan should quit hiding and make a statement about this.
No, it's not about the First Amendment (or it's not as black and white as you'd like to make it out to be), it's the Catholic Church trying to have it both ways. If the Church sticks to religious endeavors, then it should be protected from the government by the First Amendment. But if the Church wants to enter the business world (and don't kid yourself, these are businesses that bring in huge dollars and help their proselytizing), then it needs to play by the same rules as all of the other non-profits, even the secular ones. And it should be this way as long as the Church is taking public money to pay for these ventures. Otherwise, perhaps it's time for the Church to get out of the healthcare/education game...I have little doubt that other non-profits willing to follow the rules will step in and fill the void.

You can't pretend the First Amendment doesn't exist when it suits your cause and then hide behind it when it doesn't. One or the other, please.
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Old 05-23-2012, 02:31 PM
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Money

No, Cleveland, it was never about money before. All the sudden you Cleveland try to make it about money. It is about religious freedom - the right to believe in a morality. Under the First Ammendment the Government has no right to make a religion violate its religious beliefs. Read the Ammendment. The Ammendment says the Government has to stay out of religion. The Government does not define what a religion believes.

The Catholic Church has been in the health care business since the founding of the country. Why are you suddenly anti-religious? This is another reason why Obama has lost the Catholic vote. The Supreme court will probably throw out Obamacare as being unconstitutional - forcing us to buy it. But the Catholic lawsuits will also contribute to the cause of justice.

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Old 05-23-2012, 02:36 PM
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Yeah, Cleveland, Catholic hospitals and schools are making a fortune. Why, it's such a profitable venture, Catholic Hospitals and Clinics are popping up all over and the Parochial Schools are simply rolling in it! Uh-oh....Oops, I guess St. E's in Dayton and St. Vincent's in Manhattan didn't get that memo nor did most of the Parishes in the Country that are forced to close down Parochial schools. Fax them your "Plan for Success", I'm sure they'll find it interesting and they'd appreciate it!

I guess from you're responses, Cleveland, contraceptive service is just one of those instances when you believe "the government just needs to step in and make things better for a majority of it's citizens (meaning "you") even if it supposedly comes at the expense of the guilded class". Why don't you demand that groceries be "free", after all the majority of the citizens would probably like that too? C'mon, admit it, you just "like" your freebies and you don't much care where they come from or the damage it does to others. Do you want Big Brother to tuck you in at night too?

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  #180  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
You can't pretend the First Amendment doesn't exist when it suits your cause and then hide behind it when it doesn't. One or the other, please.
I don't see a dichotomy at all.

The First Amendment says nothing about religious institutions doing business with the government. It only says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof."

If any religious group does business with the government - and finds the rules of that relationship to be compatible with its religious beliefs - fine and dandy.

The Catholic Church feels same sex adoption is not compatible with its beliefs - something the government is requiring to be offered if one wishes to be in the adoption business and receive federal funds for that purpose. Since being in the adoption business is not universally required, in many cases the Church has opted out of that business. Hence, no need for a lawsuit.

However, in the case of Obamacare, providing contraception is a requirement with no opt out option. Hence the lawsuit. It is the universal mandate that is the trigger. Why Obama and Sebelius have picked this fight is beyond me. Why don't they just offer waivers and get out of this mess? To me, it is just pandering to the women's vote. However, now that the feds are so entrenched in their position, coming up with a strategic withdrawal is difficult.

In a month - when we get the SCOTUS decision - things could change dramatically.
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  #181  
Old 05-23-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
Why Obama and Sebelius have picked this fight is beyond me. Why don't they just offer waivers and get out of this mess? To me, it is just pandering to the women's vote. However, now that the feds are so entrenched in their position, coming up with a strategic withdrawal is difficult.

In a month - when we get the SCOTUS decision - things could change dramatically.
I hate to sound cynical, but I almost think the Government wants to drive the Catholic Church out of the hospital, charity, and university menu. Then they can totally control the regulations. This just a start of this kind of thinking.
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  #182  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:22 PM
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Lawsuits

Catholic Bishop of Atlanta speaks about the lawsuits filed against the Government.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...olic-interest/

The article quotes Archbishop Schnur of Cincinnati. UD is under his diocese.

“The various plaintiffs reflect a broad cross-section of Catholic institutions, and together they represent the wide variety of issues, impacts, economic consequences, and divergent facts that exist among Catholic organizations nationwide,” Archbishop Schnurr observed.

He voiced support for the recently-announced lawsuits, saying that litigation has become “the only way left to fight for our constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion

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  #183  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:35 AM
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Catholics Organizing to Protect Conscience Rights

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...public-square/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9vQt...&feature=share

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Old 05-24-2012, 10:21 AM
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Pregnancy is not a disease. Its a lifestyle. Thats the bottom line. Its easier to get free contraception in this country than it is free tootsie rolls. I guess I just dont see the lack of availability problem so many get in a huff about that would necessitate it being a healthcare coverage responsibility.

Healthcare doesnt cover my toenail clippers. Good nail maintenance and cleanliness is important for phalanges. There are some things you just need to foot the bill for yourself.
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  #185  
Old 05-24-2012, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post

Healthcare doesnt cover my toenail clippers. Good nail maintenance and cleanliness is important for phalanges. There are some things you just need to foot the bill for yourself.
Nice pun...Foot the bill for your toenail clippers.
I thought you we're also going to use "toe the line" in there somewhere.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:13 AM
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Michael Levitt on News - Former Sec. of Human Services

Michael Levitt, former Utah governor and Secretary of Human Health Services from 2005 - 2009, was just on the news.

He said the reason for the mandate was to diminish the role of religion. My cynical thoughts are proving true. The reason was to impose the administration set of values on the citizenry and consequently to step on the rights of people to practice their religion. The administration doesn't want religion to play a prominent role in society any more. The administration took away the right of religion with a stroke of a pen. Levitt said freedom of religion, a basic first ammendment right in America the land of the free, could be restored with the stroke of a pen.
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:24 PM
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That is one interpretation....

Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
Michael Levitt, former Utah governor and Secretary of Human Health Services from 2005 - 2009, was just on the news.

He said the reason for the mandate was to diminish the role of religion. My cynical thoughts are proving true. The reason was to impose the administration set of values on the citizenry and consequently to step on the rights of people to practice their religion. The administration doesn't want religion to play a prominent role in society any more. The administration took away the right of religion with a stroke of a pen. Levitt said freedom of religion, a basic first ammendment right in America the land of the free, could be restored with the stroke of a pen.
How about this one. The new health care law requires coverage for those have pre-existing conditions, no matter how serious. Unless everyone is required to have insurance....the mandate,...how do you protect the system from free-loaders, i.e., those that wait until they have a serious medical problem, and then get insurance.

That would be like casualty insurers allowing you to wreck your car, then apply for insurance to cover the damage.

That is the reason for the mandate. Now whether or not the mandate is constitutional, or not, has been decided by the Supreme Court.....they just haven't yet told us what they have decided. If they decide against the mandate, that "may" doom Obamacare. Indeed, the Court may decide that it does.

Soon we'll know. But, in the mean time, concluding that the mandate was inetended to deal with the pre-existing condition issue makes a lot more sense to me that believing it's the result of a sinister plot to "diminish the role of religion". Wow! That's a doozy.
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:31 PM
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It's not the generic "mandate" that every one must have insurance or face a fine (i.e. taxes) that's being referred to here, UAC; it's what the mandated health insurance policies must cover under the new and improved mandate (i.e. contraceptive care.) There is NO flexibility under this proposed diktat.
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  #189  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:08 PM
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Mandate

Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
It's not the generic "mandate" that every one must have insurance or face a fine (i.e. taxes) that's being referred to here, UAC; it's what the mandated health insurance policies must cover under the new and improved mandate (i.e. contraceptive care.) There is NO flexibility under this proposed diktat.
Obamacare was passed by one vote by the Senate after Obama promised the Michigan Congressman Stupak that the coverage would not include abortion. The contraceptive mandate requires insurance for the abortion drug RU486 and sterilizations. The Catholic Church is not in the market to promote abortion drugs. The mandate was signed into law at a later date. First, Obama got his Obamacare approved. Then later he threw in the mandate. The mandate could be lifted by the stroke of a pen.

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Old 05-24-2012, 01:39 PM
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Well, the current mandated coverage for contraceptives, abortificants, sterilizations, etc. could well be wiped out now with a stroke of the pen, Mich Flyer, but this will remain an existential threat into the future, IMO, unless it is absolutely struck down as an unconstitutional infringement of First Amendment rights.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
Well, the current mandated coverage for contraceptives, abortificants, sterilizations, etc. could well be wiped out now with a stroke of the pen, Mich Flyer, but this will remain an existential threat into the future, IMO, unless it is absolutely struck down as an unconstitutional infringement of First Amendment rights.
And that is a reason the bishops, dioceses, universities, and charities sued. Even if the Supreme Court knocks down Obamacare, I have heard there are some things that could still be negative regarding the health care. And the Catholic lawsuits are there to remedy the situation.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:50 PM
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A very big part of the problem...

Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
Obamacare was passed by one vote by the Senate
A revolutionary law affecting ~15% of the economy absolutely, positively should have the strong, bipartisan support of the Congress. Here we have a guy running for president who, before much of the law even takes effect, is campaigning on the promise that he'll do all he can to repeal the law if elected.

Out president is a very bright guy....but he has more than a slight case of hubris that gets him (us) in trouble. Even tackling such a large, complex issue as the nation's health care while the country is reeling from a severe recession was a mistake that, no doubt, he still does not understand.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:57 PM
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Religious Freedom Caucuses Planned for Every State

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...e-legislature/

These caucuses are not just for the Catholic religion. They are for many faiths who now feel their religious beliefs are being threatened by the Government.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
...freedom of religion, a basic first ammendment right in America the land of the free, could be restored with the stroke of a pen.
or the check of a ballot
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:52 PM
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Listing and States Where Lawsuits Filed

They just keep on coming in:

http://www.becketfund.org/hhsinformationcentral/

Notice the name Sebilius is quite popular. The administration is trying to dismiss the lawsuits because the mandate has not gone into effect yet. Technically, the President, by Executive Order, has signed (instituted)the mandate. It is law and will begin to be active in 2013.

Catholics can decide 2012 election.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...n-expert-says/

Will the Catholic Church shut down their institutions.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/03...ligion-battle/

Cardinal Dolan calls for Catholic support.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...-over-mandate/

Contact Sherrod Brown and ask for him to support the exemption.

http://www.brown.senate.gov/contact

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Old 05-25-2012, 12:16 PM
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Great opportunity

Ok folks here is an opportunity to get the message back to the university. Today you have received an email from the editor of UD Magazine asking for our input. Lets be loud and clear in our opposition to the University's health coverage.
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:51 PM
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Address

Originally Posted by TD Flyer View Post
Ok folks here is an opportunity to get the message back to the university. Today you have received an email from the editor of UD Magazine asking for our input. Lets be loud and clear in our opposition to the University's health coverage.
I found this address and sent them an e-mail.

info@udayton.edu

They mentioned on a news channel today that the Catholic position is not getting much press. It is basically being ignored. I don't think UD should be in the ignore column.

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Old 05-25-2012, 01:51 PM
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The Issue is Bigger than Mere Health Care

Originally Posted by Mich Flyer View Post
I hate to sound cynical, but I almost think the Government wants to drive the Catholic Church out of the hospital, charity, and university menu. Then they can totally control the regulations. This just a start of this kind of thinking.
The issue is conversion of the country to socialism and away from a constitutional republic.
The Roman Catholic Church has traditionally opposed socialism because of the fundamental belief of socialists that man is not subject to God. Socialists believe that Government can create the perfect society.
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:01 PM
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Socialism

Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
The issue is conversion of the country to socialism and away from a constitutional republic.
The Roman Catholic Church has traditionally opposed socialism because of the fundamental belief of socialists that man is not subject to God. Socialists believe that Government can create the perfect society.
I am not a socialist, but don't some countries in Europe espouse socialism - like France? I never viewed a socialist as necessarily believing man is not subject to God. But maybe what you say is true to a large degree.

Here is an article that states the government is trying to convert us to the belief that they have the final say on how religions should exist. It also says the Govenment will fail in their attempt because they are violating the First Ammendment.


http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA632.html

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Old 05-25-2012, 06:03 PM
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Opinion Piece

Posted without comment.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...ClU_story.html
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