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  #1  
Old 07-23-2008, 03:48 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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Are we kidding ourselves....?

Everyone on this board knows what we expect from out basketabll Flyers. But, could it be that we're kidding ourselves?....living in the past? Could it be that our expectations are no longer realistic?......that perhaps what we want is much harder to obtain than we think it is?

I'm beginning to wonder.

There are 341 schools playing Div 1 basketaball. Of that number 73 are in the six power conferences (the football conferences)...the elite. The vast majority of those schools are large public universities. For sure, not all 73 have basketball programs as successful as Dayton's. Nonetheless, all 73 count themselves as being among the "big time" programs; and they won't play in our arena.

So let's look beyond the power conferences and consider the other 268 programs. How many of those schools produce teams that consistently attain the level of success that we covet? I can think of only three, Memphis, Xavier and Gonzaga. Remember, I used the word "consistently". Surely Memphis is just about always among the best. But, Memphis, a large public university, is hardly a UD peer institution. Xavier and Gonzaga are considered to be among basketball's elite, consistently. They play the OOC big boys, they make the Dance and when there they perform well. Xavier and Gonzaga are UD peers and can be used as a fair measure of Flyer performance. Their success shows that it's possible.

But, that's only two schools out of 268. Not all 268 strive to reach the heights to which we aspire. But, many, many do and are trying just as hard as Dayton; and many have far greater resources.

I am not at all sure what accounts for the consistent success of Xavier and Gonzaga. But it certainly appears that a UD coach could simply be told, "beat Xavier" (consistently) and the rest will take care of itself.
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
But, that's only two schools out of 268. Not all 268 strive to reach the heights to which we aspire. But, many, many do and are trying just as hard as Dayton; and many have far greater resources.
~316 of 341 have less per-game home attendance than UD. I would say 200 have less than 5,000 in home attendance (someone can check me on this, I'm sure it's out there), and the commensurate commitment from their fans, alumni, and administration.

So, 341 schools aren't striving for this. I'd day more like 90-100 are. If 73 are BCS schools, I'd say 65 are really trying, and we're in competition with 25-35 other schools.

Memphis, _avier, and Gonzaga have arrived. There are a few on the doorstep, maybe a Butler, Creighton, GMU, a few others.

So we're really in competition with about 25-30 schools IMO. That's a much different concept than being in competition with all of D1.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:19 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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How many are "trying"...?

Gazoo's points are well made. (By the way, between 100 and 125 have attendance over 5000.)

But, of the 73 BCS schools I'll bet all are really trying. There is not a single BCS school that is satisfied being 9th, 10th, 11th...in its league. Yet, UD's program is substantially better than that of quite a few BCS schools.

Creighton presents a good comparison case; it's attendance is significantly higher than UD's. Creighton is "trying", of that you can be sure.

Nonetheless, I will accept gazoo's basic point that we are not competing against all of Div 1. But, I think the number we are competing against is larger than 25-30....I think 50 would be more like it.

Whatever, it ain't easy;...that is my main point.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:36 PM
UDBrian UDBrian is offline
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I believe it can be done. But, a top name program can hire a bad coach and still get good players. When you are a smaller school like UD, Xavier and Gonzaga (plus many others) you need that special coach who appreciates a wonderful situation and knows that winning at a smaller school will bring all the attention that his ego desires.

The coach makes the difference and without a superior coach/recruiter the smaller schools are at a big time disadvantage. All of the eggs are in the basket that BG is a difference maker for the program. I still believe he can accomplish a lot at UD but there aren't many coaches available who will come to a school that is not a perenial top 10 program and be satisfied. Your chances or getting a tremendous coach every 3-4 years if they move on decrease each time. When you screw up the coaching choice your program will suffer big time as we have seen.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:56 PM
Fudd Fudd is offline
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Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
I believe it can be done. But, a top name program can hire a bad coach and still get good players. When you are a smaller school like UD, Xavier and Gonzaga (plus many others) you need that special coach who appreciates a wonderful situation and knows that winning at a smaller school will bring all the attention that his ego desires.

The coach makes the difference and without a superior coach/recruiter the smaller schools are at a big time disadvantage. All of the eggs are in the basket that BG is a difference maker for the program. I still believe he can accomplish a lot at UD but there aren't many coaches available who will come to a school that is not a perenial top 10 program and be satisfied. Your chances or getting a tremendous coach every 3-4 years if they move on decrease each time. When you screw up the coaching choice your program will suffer big time as we have seen.
This is exactly why we are fortunate to have BG.
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  #6  
Old 07-23-2008, 05:02 PM
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UD Fans are Very Generous

UD fans are very generous. We pay top dollar in the A-10 for a product that is somewhere in the middle. We support our Flyers through thick or thin. But never confuse our loyalty, support and financial generosity with helping the team achieve success on the court.
UD is fortunate to have the locals support the program. It is a testament to the dearth of
options available in the Dayton winter rather than an abiding interest in "must see" hoops.
Last year was especially a hoot because with great victories over Louisville and Pitt, the team was catapulted into the national polls which fed our delusions of grandeur for Flyer fans both young and old.

But the fact of the matter is we all need to get real with our expectations. First things first.
Let's finish in the top 3 of the A-10 and earn a birth to the NCAA tournament. Let's break Xavier's winning streak against UD at home. And let's get back to scheduling home games on Saturday's instead of conflicting with the NFL schedule on Sunday's. Why schedule games on Sunday's that are never televised?
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:12 PM
Fudd Fudd is offline
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Hmm, the big run at the beginning of last season was not a "delusion of grandeur" IMO. We were pretty good in that stretch. Take away a few of our finest players, and things get diluted. Bring them back, and things pick up again to a non-delusional state.

The only delusion might be that we have the talent depth to lose guys of that caliber and still play good basketball. We are not there now. Can we get there? I think it is possible under BG.
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:32 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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Importance of the coach...

We all feel that the coach is very important; and that coaching stability is very important. A coaching change can be very upsetting to a program. But, it is a fact that Xavier has had three coaches over the last decade; and hasn't skipped a beat. That, I do not understand.

Today's top HS players want to see a clear path to the NBA. That could be a major problem for UD. If I'm not mistaken, X has sent quite a few players to the NBA over the last 10-20 years. If so, I'd be surprised if photos of those players in their NBA uniforms are not prominently displayed at X where they can be seen by recruits.

Getting a kid to attend an Arena game makes a strong impression, I'm sure; but the interest has to be very strong before a really good HS player takes the time to visit Dayton.

A consistent stream of solid incoming talent is a must. One poor recruiting year hurts and more than one is a big deal. In my opinion, even the top teams expect and get help from incoming freshmen. If your recruiting class spends essentially all the meaningful playing time sitting on the bench it wasn't as good as you talked yourself into believing.
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:37 PM
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I think West might be the only guy in the last 10 years in the NBA from X. Some recruits think the player makes the jersey, not the other way around. It sounds like words of wisdom to me.
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:45 PM
shapanud shapanud is offline
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
I think West might be the only guy in the last 10 years in the NBA from X. Some recruits think the player makes the jersey, not the other way around. It sounds like words of wisdom to me.
According to basketballreference.com, James Posey is the only other X player who went to X in the last 10 years and is still in the NBA.

The list of X players who have played at any time in the NBA during the last 10 years is longer...

Braggs, Torraye 2003
Chalmers, Lionel 2004
Grant, Brian 1994-2005
Hawkins, Michael 1996-2000
Hill, Tyrone 1990-2003
Posey, James 1999-2007
Strong, Derek 1991-2000
West, David 2003-2007
Williams, Aaron 1993-2007

Last edited by shapanud; 07-23-2008 at 05:48 PM..
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:58 PM
nyc_xu nyc_xu is offline
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
But, it is a fact that Xavier has had three coaches over the last decade; and hasn't skipped a beat. That, I do not understand.
Mike Bobinski is a very good athletic director. He's been an integral part of Xavier's basketball success.

I do think Dayton's talent level has gone up considerably. If things on the recruiting front progress as they have, UD will be back up there very soon. Last year in the middle was a sign of things to come, I think, but the Flyers got some really bad luck. Chris Wright, I fear, is a game-changer.

I will make a comment in response to the idea that if you "beat Xavier" the rest will take care of itself. Xavier should be seen as merely an obstacle on the way to what UD wants to achieve. UC used to be that albatross for us in years past, with our success against them ultimately determining our season. But recently, the Xavier program has made it a point to not put so much stock in one regular season game because, whether you're successful in that one game, things tend to be overblown. Beating Xavier should just be symptomatic of what UD has done, and not the end-all, be-all of the season.



Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
I think West might be the only guy in the last 10 years in the NBA from X. Some recruits think the player makes the jersey, not the other way around. It sounds like words of wisdom to me.
James Posey was drafted in the last 10 years. He went in the first round as the 18th pick in the '99 draft. But you're right, other than those two, Xavier doesn't have anyone else still in the league. Chalmers and Sato were both drafted, but their stays were brief. Chalmers actually saw some game action with the Timberwolves before going overseas, and Sato had a cup of coffee with the Spurs, but that's it.
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
I believe it can be done. But, a top name program can hire a bad coach and still get good players. When you are a smaller school like UD, Xavier and Gonzaga (plus many others) you need that special coach who appreciates a wonderful situation and knows that winning at a smaller school will bring all the attention that his ego desires.

The coach makes the difference and without a superior coach/recruiter the smaller schools are at a big time disadvantage. All of the eggs are in the basket that BG is a difference maker for the program. I still believe he can accomplish a lot at UD but there aren't many coaches available who will come to a school that is not a perennial top 10 program and be satisfied. Your chances or getting a tremendous coach every 3-4 years if they move on decrease each time. When you screw up the coaching choice your program will suffer big time as we have seen.
I agree totally. We all know what happened with O'Brian. Ollie brought us back to respectability but did leave the cupboard a little bare. I think the reason for that was the assistant coaches. They really do play a big role in the daily contact with the head coach being more of a talent evaluator and a closer. I thought when Pete Strickland left that was a real loss.

What X has had is continuity in its program with promotion of assistant coaches.
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:27 PM
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I think the more troubling part of Gazoo's assessment of us competing against 25-30 schools, is that we even seem to be falling behind schools that seemingly aren't really even trying at all. To say nothing of how we're doing against the schools that are trying.

GW, Davidson, Kent st., butler, mason, oral roberts, st.mary's, san diego, western kentucky, ODU, VCU, So. Ill, Pacific, Air Force, UAB, Wisc-Mil, Winthrop, and Bucknell all have had more recent and more frequent success in the tourney than us with very few advantages over us. Some have even less to work with in terms of facility, budget, conference, exposure, and recruiting territory. I'm not saying that these schools all 'aren't trying', but i do know that many of them lack the fan base and resources that we have.

I went to grad school at VCU 10 years ago and watching a game there was an absolute joke. It was a commuter school with an arena that was like a morgue. They built an arena and hired a coach and BAM. Success.

We have to wait til next year. Every year.
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:30 PM
UDBrian UDBrian is offline
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Originally Posted by nyc_xu View Post
Mike Bobinski is a very good athletic director. He's been an integral part of Xavier's basketball success.

I do think Dayton's talent level has gone up considerably. If things on the recruiting front progress as they have, UD will be back up there very soon. Last year in the middle was a sign of things to come, I think, but the Flyers got some really bad luck. Chris Wright, I fear, is a game-changer.

I will make a comment in response to the idea that if you "beat Xavier" the rest will take care of itself. Xavier should be seen as merely an obstacle on the way to what UD wants to achieve. UC used to be that albatross for us in years past, with our success against them ultimately determining our season. But recently, the Xavier program has made it a point to not put so much stock in one regular season game because, whether you're successful in that one game, things tend to be overblown. Beating Xavier should just be symptomatic of what UD has done, and not the end-all, be-all of the season.
Nice post.

In reality UD has been just a little behind Xavier as far as talent in the past 20 years, and far behind in some of those years. We have had some good players but really nobody who could just take over a game (like Negele Knight for us and West for Xavier) in quite some time. We are getting some recruits with that potential now.

The goal is not to beat Xavier during the regular season, the goal is to get into the NCAA tournament most years and make noise when you get there.
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:39 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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Recruiting better talent...?

There has been much talk about the increasing level of talent recruited by BG. May be true. But, OP's team comprised of Brooks, Keith, Sean and Ramod(sp?) was, in my opinion, the best Dayton team in a very long time,...and has yet to be matched by any BG team.

The swoon by our #4 seeded team against Tulsa in the Dance was sad and inexplicable. Nontheless, that was a very good team and, as I recall, finished the season in the Top 25 even after losing to Tulsa in the first round.

OK, so we lost BRob to graduation; teams lose good players all the time. If the talent level has been on the rise there is no reason to expect next year to be a step back for the Flyers. BRob was a very good player;....but not an All-Amercian and, apparently, not an NBA player. If loss of BRob does, indeed, really hurt the Flyers of '08/'09 then how can we say that there has been a significant improvement in recruiting under BG? The coming year's team will have a healthy (to start) CW, a player whose creds are well above BRobs at the same stage of their respective careers.

A sign of good coaching is player improvement and development. The `08/`09 team is experienced;....we will not be starting green kids. There is no reason not to expect a solid season if, in fact, the talent level has been improving.

And, by the way, X sending nine guys to the NBA in ten years is very impressive
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post

The goal is not to beat Xavier during the regular season, the goal is to get into the NCAA tournament most years and make noise when you get there.



i know being a xavier fan thats what i hope for. the regular season is a grind to set the stage for the post season run. when xavier quit putting all their eggs in a basket in trying to beat uc the rest took care of itself. no single game should make a season.
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
I think West might be the only guy in the last 10 years in the NBA from X. Some recruits think the player makes the jersey, not the other way around. It sounds like words of wisdom to me.
see Shapanud's post right below this one. they 've had a few guys have a cup of coffee, and several more who've been quality journeymen and better!

I'm sure they have a hallway near their arena or practice area that has guys wearing nba jerseys.

We've been lucky to have 2 in the last 20 years.

tyrone hill, remember him. Derek strong.... current recruits rightfully can look to X's mysterious success here, while ud recruits are 'hoping' Wright and marcus and whomever else in the next few years hope to make it. mostly thanks to BG and company.
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:23 PM
UDBrian UDBrian is offline
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
There has been much talk about the increasing level of talent recruited by BG. May be true. But, OP's team comprised of Brooks, Keith, Sean and Ramod(sp?) was, in my opinion, the best Dayton team in a very long time,...and has yet to be matched by any BG team.

If loss of BRob does, indeed, really hurt the Flyers of '08/'09 then how can we say that there has been a significant improvement in recruiting under BG? The coming year's team will have a healthy (to start) CW, a player whose creds are well above BRobs at the same stage of their respective careers.
If Rob or London provide good point guard play with some points this team can be better than last year's. Some of the talent is just pups.

Don't you think that Devin and Josh shows flashes of ability that we haven't had at the '4' spot in a very long time? Don't you think Marcus can be one of the best '2' or '3' position players we have had in a long time? If he continues to improve his offense he will be better all around than Brooks Hall was (and Brooks was a tremendous player) because Marcus will also go to the hoop and create. Don't you think Chris Wright can be the very best player we have had in a long time? Paul Williams and Chris Johnson show a ton of potential at the '2' and '3' spots, good range and not afraid to mix it up or to play D. Luke gives us a big guy who can go outside and shoot from three point range. When was the last time we had someone like that? If Kurt continues to improve his offense he could be better than Finn because Kurt isn't going to struggle when the play is physical. I will admit that Kurt will not influence shots the way that Finn could.

Then you add in Matt Kavanaugh who can put the ball on the floor and drive from the foul line while hitting pull up jumpers. Who was the last center who could do that? Add in Staten who is a top 100 and potentially top 60 recruit who has experience playing with and against good talent. When did we last recruit a point guard in that range?

That is why I say the talent is improving.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by toledodan View Post
. no single game should make a season.

LOL. This reminds me of the quote, " If you think money can't buy happiness, try poverty".

I agree with you that one game should not make a season. But try losing to the same team 3 times in one season and falling a win short of dancing and see how that works out for you. Other losses have hurt us but one can't also deny that Xavier alone has stood in our way the last two years when we were on the bubble.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:16 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
LOL. This reminds me of the quote, " If you think money can't buy happiness, try poverty".

I agree with you that one game should not make a season. But try losing to the same team 3 times in one season and falling a win short of dancing and see how that works out for you. Other losses have hurt us but one can't also deny that Xavier alone has stood in our way the last two years when we were on the bubble.
I agree, but how many times did we beat Xavier in 02-03 when we finished the regular season ranked 16th in the country and got a 4 seed in the dance? The answer would be zero. Some years it has hurt losing to them, but the point is we don't HAVE to beat them to reach our goals. We beat them in 04-05 and 05-06 and it didn't get us anywhere. Of course, I would LOVE to kick their a$$ every time we see them.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:52 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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Beating Xavier....

My comment "beat Xavier" appears to have been misinterpreted by all. I did not mean that to be taken literally. Of course, UD could go 2-28 in a season with the two wins coming over Xavier. Would that be success?

What I meant was this. No one can deny that for years X has been exactly where we want to be, i.e., they are at or near the top of the A10, they make the Dance, they win when they do, typically they are ranked, BCS teams and/or anyone else will play X,.....X is a top-tier team in the eyes of collge BB enthusiasts. In a typical season they beat Dayton like a drum.

X is THE game on UD's schedule; when the Enquirer discusses X's schdeule Dayton isn't even mentioned as a afterthought.

What I meant was this; if we elevate the level of our program such that UD-X means something again, when we can beat X at least half the time, at that point we will have positioned ourselves where we want to be.

I did not mean that defeating X will define a season;.....play as good as X consistently and everything will take care of itself is what I meant. And I believe that is true.
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Old 07-24-2008, 06:45 AM
Viperstick Viperstick is offline
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What is the standard?

Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Everyone on this board knows what we expect from out basketabll Flyers.
UAC,

I have wondered aloud on this board whether there has been a creeping acceptance of a lower standard. I think you rightly acknowledge the shift towards future (recruits) vs. current (W-L) expectations.

Lest this thread turn into a debate over BG's future, let me say that regardless of who coaches the Flyers, I think the program should be able to consistently (4 out of 5 years) win 20+ games, reach a post season tournament (NCAA at least half the time), and occasionally achieve an AP ranking. This is analogous to where we were at the early part of this decade and should be both the level upon which we build, and the floor from which we do not stray too far. We can, and should, be just as good as Butler, Davidson, VCU, or any other quality non-BCS team.
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:07 AM
UDBrian UDBrian is offline
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post

What I meant was this. No one can deny that for years X has been exactly where we want to be, i.e., they are at or near the top of the A10, they make the Dance, they win when they do, typically they are ranked, BCS teams and/or anyone else will play X,.....X is a top-tier team in the eyes of collge BB enthusiasts. In a typical season they beat Dayton like a drum.

What I meant was this; if we elevate the level of our program such that UD-X means something again, when we can beat X at least half the time, at that point we will have positioned ourselves where we want to be.
And what if Xavier drops a notch or two? The goal of matching Xavier means nothing then. And yes, if we play Xavier three times a season we had better beat them at least once to meet the other goals.
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Old 07-24-2008, 10:32 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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Xavier dropping a "notch or two..."

UDBrian,...."what if Xavier drops a notch or two?....the goal of matching X means nothing then". C'mon Brian,.....what if pigs had wings?

X is not a flash in the pan. They have been very good on a consistent basis for at least a decade. I'll take my chances on X "dropping a notch or two". TK would love to match Xavier's consistent level of success, or Gonzaga's,....and so would 99% of the regulars on this board.

Indeed, what makes the X-UD comparison so painful is that they are so much like us; X is a neighboring peer institution dealing with the exactly the same environment as ours and with, if anything, fewer resources.
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Old 07-24-2008, 10:50 AM
xubrew xubrew is offline
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i'd include nevada and southern illinois on the list of non major conference teams that are consistently good. they struggled last year, but both were at the bottom of their talent cycles, and last season appeared to be the exception, not the rule. xavier was awful in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006. they did make the ncaa tournament in 2006, but needed the automatic bid to do it and earned a #14 seed. it's not as if xu has been consistently good for ten years running without any down years.

southern illinois started the season ranked in the top 25 last year even though they had so many young players. they started off ranked simply based on name recognition because there was no other reason to put them in the top 25. that's a sign of respect. i believe they'll be a top 25 team this year and possibly next, though, and for the past ten or so seasons i believe they've been in the second round more times than not. nevada has been in the second round three times in the past five years, and to the sweet sixteen once. they had a great season in 2005-2006 (possibly their best), but were upset by montana in the first round.

if you think about it, there aren't that many teams from the major conferences that are consistently good. there are more of them, but the majority of them aren't good all of the time. georgia tech, oklahoma state and lsu are all teams that were recently in the final four, but don't appear to be on their way back anytime soon. alabama has been deep in the ncaa tournament a time or two in the past ten years, but hasn't been anything special the last two seasons. if you look at just about anyone, they've had their ups and downs. washington, oregon, texas tech, missouri, purdue, etc. they've all seesawed back and forth over the past ten years. consistency is rare even in the major conferences outside of duke, north carolina, michigan state, ucla (and even they struggled under lavin), arizona, kentucky, louisville, kansas, texas and possibly a few others.
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Old 07-24-2008, 11:04 AM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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What consitutes a fair comparison?

First, in the nine year period beginning in 2000 Xavier has played in seven NCAA tournaments, Gonzaga in nine and Creighton in seven,...not bad.

xubrew's discussion of other programs is interesting; but all the schools he mentioned are large public institutions;.....not a fair comparison to Dayton.

The "type" of school matters a lot when it comes to athletics. It's no accident that only a handful of the 120, or so, schools that play FBS football are private schools, and that very few of them are competitive. Even ND with its "infinite" resources struggles.

It's more than fair to compare the Flyers with the likes of Creighton, X, Gonzaga and the private schools of the Big East and A10. But, beyond those it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.
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Old 07-24-2008, 11:47 AM
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With the value that so many put on getting into the NCAA tournament, is it better to drop to a lower league and make it almost every year? Would you think we were a more prestigious program if we did? That is the problem I have with that measure and all the arguments that are made that smaller schools that don't dedicate the resources are making more often. The tournament is not designed to put the best 64 teams in. It's got a bit of allowance built in to have some representation from the lower leagues. So, you really have to compare us to similar programs in similar leagues, and that sample is small in our case. If the number of fans showing up for games were the expectation setter for all teams, the MVC's expectations would be higher than the A10's.

Last edited by Fudd; 07-24-2008 at 11:54 AM..
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:32 PM
xubrew xubrew is offline
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
First, in the nine year period beginning in 2000 Xavier has played in seven NCAA tournaments, Gonzaga in nine and Creighton in seven,...not bad.

xubrew's discussion of other programs is interesting; but all the schools he mentioned are large public institutions;.....not a fair comparison to Dayton.

The "type" of school matters a lot when it comes to athletics. It's no accident that only a handful of the 120, or so, schools that play FBS football are private schools, and that very few of them are competitive. Even ND with its "infinite" resources struggles.

It's more than fair to compare the Flyers with the likes of Creighton, X, Gonzaga and the private schools of the Big East and A10. But, beyond those it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.
i was just making the point that even among the big state schools in the bcs, not many of them are consistently good. hardly anyone is regardless of size, shape or conference.

no matter how broad or how narrow your study is, you'll find that very few teams are consistently good. there are several that are consistently bad, but very few are consistently good. if your definition of consistently good is being in a position to get an at-large more than half the time, gonzaga, xavier, creighton and butler are the only ones that really come to mind, and all of those programs have gone through cliffs and valleys, and there is no reason to think that any of those teams have reached a point to where they'll never have to rebuild because they're always reloading.

i remember when tulsa was awesome. they have less than 2000 students, but for an eight year period they were consistently better than any of those other schools minus maybe gonzaga. correct me if my facts are off, but between 1994 and 2003 tulsa went to the second round six times in eight years (it may have been more than that). three times they went to the sweet sixteen, and once they made the elite eight. xavier has only been to the sweet sixteen three times in their entire history, and gonzaga has only been four times. tulsa went three times in a six year timespand, and would have gotten there again had they not blown a a second half lead against wisconsin in 2003 and lose in the final seconds. six years later, tulsa is nowhere to be found. getting there doesn't mean you're going to stay there. not many teams experience that kind of success all of the time, and it isn't just the non-bcs schools that come and go. washington was outstanding about three years ago, and washington state was awful. things have changed. arizona state is looking pretty good all of a sudden. texas tech has been all over the map. virginia has been all over the map. wake forest has been up and down. the non-bcs private schools aren't the only ones that have a hard time maintaining consistent success. EVERYONE, no matter what conference or how big the school is, has ups and downs.

Last edited by xubrew; 07-24-2008 at 01:48 PM..
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:35 PM
UACFlyer UACFlyer is offline
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Ups and Downs

xubrew's point that all schools have their "ups and downs" makes sense and applies to a school like UD, so long as the "ups" balance the "downs", more or less. It's not reasonable to expect ten great years is a row; nor is it acceptable to have ten poor years in a row.

So what would most of us consider to be a reasonable expectation for Dayton over the span of a decade, knowing that there will be both up and down years? Certainly ten NCAA appearances is not reasonable; but ten years without appearing in the Dance is unacceptable. Over ten years, for Dayton something along the lines of six post-season appearances, 3 NCAA (at least) and 3 NIT, would be reasonable, in my opinion, spaced pretty evenly over the ten year period. Now let's not quibble over whether it should be 3,4 or 5 NCAAs over ten years. We know 7,8,9 is unrealistic and 1,2 is not good enough. So something along the lines of 3,4,5 is about right,.....with some NITs thrown in along the way so that an average decade for the Flyers features 5-7 post season appearances.

If we pull that off, i.e., post season 5-7 times every decade, including 3,4 of those in the Dance, UD will have regained a position among the top programs in the country. And, of course, a very important element of earning a reputation is success in the post season. Over the last seven years UD has been to three NCAAs and has not faired well.

Last season ended on a positive note, winning 2 of 3 in an improving NIT. But, it's getting to be quite a while since our last NCAA appearance,.....and a seeming eternity since our last NCAA victory. The clock is ticking, I think.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:39 PM
as_4 as_4 is offline
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We actually have been successful in the past 10 seasons.

98-99 11-17
99-00 22-9 NCAA
00-01 21-13 NIT
01-02 21-11 NIT
02-03 24-6 NCAA
03-04 24-9 NCAA
04-05 18-11
05-06 14-17
06-07 19-12
07-08 23-11 NIT

6 Post Season
6 20+ Win Seasons
only 2 Losing seasons.

We have improved each of the past 2 seasons and I think we are on track to improve again this season, the talent is there. We are on our way. We just need to see the big picture unfolding in front of our eyes.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:57 PM
NorthwestFlyer NorthwestFlyer is offline
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The last ten years have been ok, but without a run in the NCAA, they are still a bit of downer. I would like to see a sweet 16 or better performance every ten years. We have gotten some good post season over the last 10 but last year was the only year we made some noise in the post season.

So to me, 6 of ten in the post season as long as we have a good run in the NCAA once every ten years is acceptable to me. It has been way too long.

But, that is also the bottom for me, I do not think this program ever should have a losing year unless something extraneous happens such as coaching changes or other program changes (perhaps mass exodus of players depending on the situation) that should get us to the next level or at least back on track. Which is kind of how we got those losing seasons in the last 10 years. The '99 losing year is Purnell pulling us out of the garbage, the other was BG trying to get us back on track and building his recruiting pipeline.

With the facilities and fan support this program has, we can do better than what is acceptable for a University the size of UD.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:04 PM
UDan71 UDan71 is offline
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Unhappy NBA jerseys @ XU

Several comments have been made about the number of XU players who have gone on to play in the NBA (even briefly) over the past ten years.

I work at a high school in Cincy and we hold our graduation ceremony at Cintas every year. The faculty and students assemble before graduation on XU's practice court inside the building and then march past their weight room out onto the floor. The somewhat circuitous hallways to get to the floor are lined with framed NBA team jerseys of all of those players hanging on the walls. Each jersey has the XU player's name on the back and those who have played for several teams have jerseys hanging from each of those teams. There are also mural photos of some of those players in action shots of them playing for those NBA teams.

I'm sure to a 16- or 17-year old with great dreams, such sights are VERY impressive.

Contrast that with what we have to display: black and white FORTY- and FIFTY-year old photo murals of our greats. (Sigh!)

That's what BG has to go up against. We really need to turn the corner on that issue. If BRob was 25 pounds heavier, this year might have broken the drought.
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Old 07-24-2008, 06:19 PM
Fudd Fudd is offline
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Originally Posted by UDan71 View Post
That's what BG has to go up against. We really need to turn the corner on that issue. If BRob was 25 pounds heavier, this year might have broken the drought.
BRob could still break the drought if you are talking about just making an NBA roster someday.
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Old 07-24-2008, 07:26 PM
John the Bomb John the Bomb is offline
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I agree with Northwest Flyer that it is acceptable to have 6 postseason apperances in a 10 year span but that we need to make at least one run in the Big Dance during that period. We haven't won an NCAA game since 1990. 1990!!! That's going on 19 years! But I also believe UD's future is promising with CW, MJ and CL. As I have said before they are the second, third and fourth leading scorers along with top 3 leading rebounders on the team from last year. That should help us. Let's hope we first get into The Big Dance next year. Then we'll worry about winning in it.
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Old 07-24-2008, 10:44 PM
longtimefan longtimefan is offline
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What is painful and depressing about our three NCAA appearances is we shoulda/coulda won all three of those games. There was the phantom foul call on Ashman in the closing seconds against Purdue, when we had the ball for the winning shot (after Brooks missed the tying free throw), the phantom offensive interference call on Finn against Tulsa, which would have cut their lead to one (and Brooks was knocked to the floor on his shot on that play with no call), and we just flat out blew the DePaul game. Those games still tick me off. One break in any of those games and the discussion we are having might be totally different.
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Old 07-25-2008, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
What is painful and depressing about our three NCAA appearances is we shoulda/coulda won all three of those games. There was the phantom foul call on Ashman in the closing seconds against Purdue, when we had the ball for the winning shot (after Brooks missed the tying free throw), the phantom offensive interference call on Finn against Tulsa, which would have cut their lead to one (and Brooks was knocked to the floor on his shot on that play with no call), and we just flat out blew the DePaul game. Those games still tick me off. One break in any of those games and the discussion we are having might be totally different.
I was having a pleasant morning until your post reminded me of the lousy Purdue and Tulsa calls. Grrrr.

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Old 07-25-2008, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
I was having a pleasant morning until your post reminded me of the lousy Purdue and Tulsa calls. Grrrr.
Glad I could help.
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