So who do you blame?

Gazoo · #1 03-23-2013, 09:19 AM

OK clearly the administration but which coach screwed us the most?

TheDuke2003 · #2 03-23-2013, 09:30 AM

El niño

T-Bone 84 · #3 03-23-2013, 09:43 AM

Most will agree that this is an institutional issue, so it's not really fair to make 1 coach a scapegoat. But if you have to choose from among the 4, OP had us in the NCAA in 2 of his last 4 years (which is, roughly, the goal at UD), and AM has only had 2 years (which IMHO is an "Incomplete"). That left either JOB or BG for me. I chose BG, only because he brought the sizzle but not the steak. All the talk about elevating the program, and all we did was go sideways or slightly down. When he'd say "We have to keep getting better...", I'd ask my friends, "Don't you have to BE getting better in order to KEEP getting better?" Great expectations, but, except for 2008-09, mostly mild (2007-08) to bitter (2009-11) disappointments.

rollo · #4 03-23-2013, 09:54 AM

I gave Miller a pass for last season but he's 100% to blame for this season...with two 5th year seniors...a 4th year BCS transfer (Vee)...3rd year BCS transfer (Matt D) and some youth with size and speed along with Oliver, he had a perfect mix of everything necesary to win. The only aspect missing from this season was clutch coaching. And you can't blame Dillard or Benson for that.

LI Flyer · #5 03-23-2013, 10:22 AM

To place blame on one particular party or individual is pure folly. The present state of the program is a result of a number of decisions and events that have occurred over the past 30 to 40 years. I think one might start with the loss of Don Donoher and then proceed from that vantage point. If one had told me some 30 years ago that Stony Brook University on LI would get in the NCAA tournament and we wouldn't get an invite to even the NIT I would take that bet at a 100 to 1 odds. Unfortunately I would lose. How embarrassing?

UDMARK · #6 03-23-2013, 10:25 AM

I think you need to add the UD administration to the poll.

rollo · #7 03-23-2013, 10:39 AM

The Administration bumbled, fumbled and stumbled at certain points in the past 30 years but had nothing to do with the product we saw on the floor this season that lost to Weber St, GW, RI etc...

Upon being hired, Miller decided immediately not to pursue Gibson or Henton aggressively, if at all. Unless Wabler told him to not take their calls, I place that decision on Miller. Would they have come here had he showed up on their doorstep? Nobody knows but we do know he made little to no effort.

Our lack of defense over 2 seasons has nothing to do with the Administration. It's 100% on Miller and his assistants. Wabler can't be blamed for Price's inability to box out on a free throw...or Benson's 18' jumpers. That's a function of defining roles...which is 100% coaching.

Any coach worth keeping will accept 100% of the blame for a loss. They also will give 100% credit for a win to his players. And we need to be the same way.

By all accounts Miller has the tools and resources to win in the A10 and in many cases has 1.5-3X the resources of his opponent. Yet we still can't finish in the top 4 of the A10.

But ultimately we lose on the court, not on College Park Ave. It's all about Archie's decisions. And he needs to acknowledge and learn from it.

100%.

Piqua Flyer '66 · #8 03-23-2013, 10:46 AM

Ted Kissel told us 10-15 years ago we had to upgrade our non-revenue facilities and improve our Olympic sports teams. We did the facilities. We did the Olym teams (VB, WBB, Soccer), even baseball improved. If we did these things "we'll be ready when new league calls". Well, we did them when in reality all that truly matters is WINNING in the men's basketball program - we did not do enough of that.....so we get passed over by XU, BU and Creighton whom I assume do not have the non-rev facilities or Olym winning succes we had in the pst 10 years. The NBE does not give a rats a** as to how well we have done outside of men's hoops.

So, a lot of blame to Ted K.

UACFlyer · #9 03-23-2013, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Piqua Flyer '66

Ted Kissel told us 10-15 years ago we had to upgrade our non-revenue facilities and improve our Olympic sports teams. We did the facilities. We did the Olym teams (VB, WBB, Soccer), even baseball improved. If we did these things "we'll be ready when new league calls". Well, we did them when in reality all that truly matters is WINNING in the men's basketball program - we did not do enough of that.....so we get passed over by XU, BU and Creighton whom I assume do not have the non-rev facilities or Olym winning succes we had in the pst 10 years. The NBE does not give a rats a** as to how well we have done outside of men's hoops.

So, a lot of blame to Ted K.

Good facilities and olymoic sports will not get a school into a conference. But, bad facilities and teams can keep it out. It's in that context that Kissell's remarks should be interpreted.

When TK came to UD we did not have a Div I sports program....wasn't even a good Div III program. Someone pointed out that while in the Great Midwest UD did not win a single game in any sport except BB.

I don't know if that's true or not. But, the miserable state of UD athletics when TK came on board was 100% the responsibility of the UD administration at the time.

TK knew he had to fix that...and he did.

He also "fixed" men's BB with the OP hire. OP did his job and left, not unexpectedly. TK's process for hiring a replacement appears to have been thorough and professional. BG was a coveted, top-tier assistant. Unfortunately, the BG hire did not work out...showing how dicey and unpredictable this business is. He left a program in a pretty steep decline.

So, here we are again....no choice but to give our new coach some time.

Bat'71 · #10 03-23-2013, 11:29 AM

Oh Boy...how pathetic is this Thread! Ooooooh, who do we blame, which s.o.b. caused us all this hardship and pain? OH THE HUMANITY!!!!! Break out the sack cloth and ashes, let's get the tar and feathers...quick fire up the stake! ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHH! Give me a freakin' break. This is about as juvenile as it gets (I hope.)

Viperstick · #11 03-23-2013, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Piqua Flyer '66

Ted Kissel told us 10-15 years ago we had to upgrade our non-revenue facilities and improve our Olympic sports teams. We did the facilities. We did the Olym teams (VB, WBB, Soccer), even baseball improved. If we did these things "we'll be ready when new league calls". Well, we did them when in reality all that truly matters is WINNING in the men's basketball program - we did not do enough of that.....so we get passed over by XU, BU and Creighton whom I assume do not have the non-rev facilities or Olym winning succes we had in the pst 10 years. The NBE does not give a rats a** as to how well we have done outside of men's hoops.

So, a lot of blame to Ted K.

I would say that if Ted's thesis was correct, we were ready for when the new league calls. The problem was that Ted misjudged what would cause the league to call.

rollo · #12 03-23-2013, 11:55 AM

I met with Ted way back in '97 and had a great 45 minute 1-on-1 with him in his office. 'Blunt' is the best word to describe his management style.

At the time he understood that the Big East would implode and was investing all over the Athletics Dept in an attempt to prepare UD for the Big East split that he estimated would be in 5 years.

So here we are in 2013 and not only has the Big East split, but other BCS conferences have added members as well as the A10....all things that Ted didn't factor into his 'Model'.

So he retires and Wabler picks up the program and from all outside appearances, hasn't changed Ted's approach or tweeked his Model. And when Modeling anything, as the Constraints change, so does the Solution.

I'm not sure Ted misjudged it...I think the equations changed under Wabler and he didn't adjust. Had this split occurred in 2003 instead of today, I think we're in the Big East with no hesitation on their part. But things changed....and we didn't.

And it might work out in our favor.

The Gem · #13 03-23-2013, 12:21 PM

One thing I have thought about often during all this is should Wabler still have a job? The athletic department has been preparing for this since the late 1990's and failed. So that's a good 15 years of work for nothing. Maybe it's time to hand Wabler his walking papers and move in a different direction with the athletic department.

UDDoug · #14 03-23-2013, 12:24 PM

I don't think there is anything in Ted's thesis that says men's basketball does not matter, all you need is good facilities and Olympic sports. To interpret that way, IMHO is dead wrong. The comments he often gave were in the context of why do you want money for Olympic sports and facilities. Just restore mens hoops. It was explaining that, not setting the priorities. Every discussion I ever had with him (which was less than a handful) always stressed that number one was mens hoops. But everything else was imoprtant or when the shakeup occurred if we were still D3 in everything else we would be outside looking in even with mens hoops performing.

Do you really think they would have hired OP, or built the Donoher Center, provided money and funding to expand recruiting, fly charter and on and on if improving mens hoops wasn't a part of the equation?

The fact they didn't succeed to the extent required, didn't make decisions that maybe needed to be made, were perhaps too comfortable that things were close, doesn't mean it wasn't part of the solution.

There are things that need to change. But the biggest issue is execution - from athletics administration to coaching. Not importance.

And I include looking inward and outward to see what is not being done and what is holding back winning as execution.
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UDDoug · #15 03-23-2013, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by The Gem

One thing I have thought about often during all this is should Wabler still have a job? The athletic department has been preparing for this since the late 1990's and failed. So that's a good 15 years of work for nothing. Maybe it's time to hand Wabler his walking papers and move in a different direction with the athletic department.

That depends on the why. Of the sole answer is because Gregory did not win enough games, I don't fire him. If it is because other factors out of UDs control made the decision I don't. If it is the strategy to get an invite, how UD handled it I probably do.
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SeasonTicketFan · #16 03-23-2013, 12:58 PM

I listened to Ted's view of men's basketball as well. He is a smart man and had a good view of the changing basketball landscape. I think he was committed to improving the men’s basketball program. Where I disagreed with Ted was the plan. Ted felt hiring the right coach was the most important aspect to raising the program. I think mid tier programs have to have MORE than the coach. Ted came from Arizona and I do believe big sports programs think differently than small programs. Ohio State had no problem paying X a million dollars to release Matta from his contract. Big program just hire a top coach and talent flocks to them. Mid tier programs have to be very creative. Creative and men’s UD basketball are on opposite ends of the earth.

Purnell was Ted's fourth choice. That told you how low the program was. Ironically the candidates ahead of Purnell failed miserably at their schools and lasted less than Oliver!

Gregory was the first choice. Ted believed BG was the right choice at the time, but played cards close to his vest. I understand that BG's contract later on became more incentive based and may have contributed to his decision to leave. Those incentives do mean: Perform or find another job. I think the administration was putting heat on BG and they knew the problems with performance.

I also see lots of talk on this board about hiring a big name experienced coach. No big name coach would come to Dayton. There was not enough money. There were has been and retreads who applied for the job. Top coaches go where they think they can win. If a coach thinks they can't win big at Dayton, what does that tell about the culture of the program. It is an NIT culture, not an NCAA culture in the athletic offices. BTW. BG and AM both have an NCAA attitude though. They are both much more ambitious than the rest of the university.

Ted talked constantly about the break up of the Big East. He has only been gone for two years, so the planning to get in had to still be under his watch.

Tim Wabler is a super nice guy. He represents the university well. But Tim is super risk averse. I am not sure that was the right approach for a program that was constantly missing targets and performing just below expectations. That method assures continuity of the same results.

longtimefan · #17 03-23-2013, 01:09 PM

I think hiring the right coach is the most important factor, unless you want to change the culture of the program by taking more chances on recruits with academic and/or character issues.

wes · #18 03-23-2013, 01:16 PM

Get some perspective. Out of over 300 Div. I teams Dayton Flyers are in the top 30%

CE80 · #19 03-23-2013, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by rollo

The Administration bumbled, fumbled and stumbled at certain points in the past 30 years but had nothing to do with the product we saw on the floor this season that lost to Weber St, GW, RI etc...

Upon being hired, Miller decided immediately not to pursue Gibson or Henton aggressively, if at all. Unless Wabler told him to not take their calls, I place that decision on Miller. Would they have come here had he showed up on their doorstep? Nobody knows but we do know he made little to no effort.

Our lack of defense over 2 seasons has nothing to do with the Administration. It's 100% on Miller and his assistants. Wabler can't be blamed for Price's inability to box out on a free throw...or Benson's 18' jumpers. That's a function of defining roles...which is 100% coaching.

Any coach worth keeping will accept 100% of the blame for a loss. They also will give 100% credit for a win to his players. And we need to be the same way.

By all accounts Miller has the tools and resources to win in the A10 and in many cases has 1.5-3X the resources of his opponent. Yet we still can't finish in the top 4 of the A10.

But ultimately we lose on the court, not on College Park Ave. It's all about Archie's decisions. And he needs to acknowledge and learn from it.

100%.

So do you blame Archie or the guy that hired him? I don't disagree that a few better coaching decisions may have won us a few more games. Benson was playing the 5 too long. A couple of timely timeouts may have saved us. Did you watch Buzz Williams against Davidson? A timeout at the right time may have won that game or them.

I am concerned that Archie will be a Bill Belichik. Fail at first job then become a star at the next job.

rollo · #20 03-23-2013, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by wes

Get some perspective. Out of over 300 Div. I teams Dayton Flyers are in the top 30%

More perspective:

Top 10% = NCAA autos and at-larges
Top 20% = At-large bids or NIT
Top 30% = us

ruechalgrin · #21 03-23-2013, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by wes

Get some perspective. Out of over 300 Div. I teams Dayton Flyers are in the top 30%

Top 30% of college basketball teams when we are in the 10% in attendance and revenue = bad results.

SeasonTicketFan · #22 03-23-2013, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

I think hiring the right coach is the most important factor, unless you want to change the culture of the program by taking more chances on recruits with academic and/or character issues.

Gregory took a lot more chances with academic and character issues. I think UD hides behind those excuses.

UD instituted a program to help these athletes with academic challenges. Chris Johnson barely made it into the university. Once he arrived, he blossomed as a student and athlete. Nothing wrong with that model. So, should UD skipped on CJ?

We act like like athletes can't become good students and can't mature their character. NONSENSE!!

UDDoug · #23 03-23-2013, 02:02 PM

Whether or not UD is in top 10% in revenue depends on where schools put TV rights fees. More than 20% of d1 are in bcs conferences. They all have more revenue. Just may not report it as basketball.

Attendance really is irrelevant.
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T-Bone 84 · #24 03-23-2013, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

I think hiring the right coach is the most important factor, unless you want to change the culture of the program by taking more chances on recruits with academic and/or character issues.

IMHO
Right coach = most important factor
Recruits with academic issues = chances worth taking
Recruits with minor character issues = chances worth taking
Recruits with major character issues = probably more trouble than they're worth
Recruits with academic & character issues = probably more trouble than they're worth

UDDoug · #25 03-23-2013, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan

Gregory took a lot more chances with academic and character issues. I think UD hides behind those excuses.

UD instituted a program to help these athletes with academic challenges. Chris Johnson barely made it into the university. Once he arrived, he blossomed as a student and athlete. Nothing wrong with that model. So, should UD skipped on CJ?

We act like like athletes can't become good students and can't mature their character. NONSENSE!!

Absolutely not.

I think the questions come more from fans because while CJ got in they wonder what would have happened if he didn't qualify. There have been too many stories of guys that couldn't qualify and went elsewhere. XU had as many nonqualifiers this year as UD has in it's history. Coincedence, maybe. Or factor.

They may have taken more risk, but maybe still too risk averse.
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ud2 · #26 03-23-2013, 02:28 PM

Another way to look at the JOB/GMC experience was that you were maybe asking MCC/Horizon League-level players to compete with c7/BE-level players.

Maybe that wasn't really fair to ask JOB to pull that off.

longtimefan · #27 03-23-2013, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan

Gregory took a lot more chances with academic and character issues. I think UD hides behind those excuses.

UD instituted a program to help these athletes with academic challenges. Chris Johnson barely made it into the university. Once he arrived, he blossomed as a student and athlete. Nothing wrong with that model. So, should UD skipped on CJ?

We act like like athletes can't become good students and can't mature their character. NONSENSE!!

I don't know if you are referring to me, but I certainly don't think we should have passed on CJ. And we shouldn't have passed on Ron Harper. I think we should take more chances than we do. That's my point. I'm saying that is one reason we are where we are, because as Doug just said, we don't take nearly as many chances as some of our peers. I think (and have heard) that when Tony Stanley failed to graduate, the administration kind of freaked out. That may be why they haven't taken as many chances on recruits with academic issues as they might. I think that is a major reason for our predicament, and that may be starting to change. I've thrown that out there as a reason for our performance problems several times, and haven't gotten much of a response. Many people would rather just ***** and moan without offering any real solutions. But, I don't think one can criticize the administration for wanting to keep academic standards high. It's kind of a no win situation.

UD62 · #28 03-23-2013, 02:49 PM

It's Bush's fault

Avid Flyer · #29 03-23-2013, 03:13 PM

1st. Christopher Columbus, if he hadn't gotten lost then we'd not even be having this conversation.

2nd. James Naismith if he hadn't had so much free time on his hands then we wouldn't be in this position.

Glen Clark · #30 03-23-2013, 03:44 PM

The need to place blame is infantile - but if I must I will go with:

5) Toxic fans and their unrealistic sense of entitlement.

There. I said it - try blaming yourselves.

___________________
A man sees what he wants to see, And disregards the rest.
- Paul Simon

Ready Action · #31 03-23-2013, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Glen Clark

The need to place blame is infantile - but if I must I will go with:

5) Toxic fans and their unrealistic sense of entitlement.

There. I said it - try blaming yourselves.

___________________
A man sees what he wants to see, And disregards the rest.
- Paul Simon

Glen good show as you are dead on!!!!! As I said before WE/US/YOU and I are a large part of the problem. We accept this year in and year out and let the U do what they like, but we keep showing up game after game $$$$$. At this point there is not a reason for the U to change a darn thing as they have settled into their place, but continue to dangle a carrot out there for the likes of you and I to continue to contribute $$$$$. Stop the blaming and figure out a way YOU can contribute more to the U. See you at the arena, enjoy.