Another mistake by AM

[UDan71]

Much has been said about the lack of continuity in our program every time a new coach is hired. Well, AM had the chance to retain Cornell Mann from BG's staff (remember how long it took before it was announced that Cornell would not be back) and if that had occurred, there's a very strong probability that both LaDontae Henton and Percy Gibson would have probably stuck with UD, since Mann was their primary recruiter. Imagine what we could have done with those two on the roster the past two years! And Cornell's coaching would have really helped. Take note below that he is Iowa State's designated defensive coach. Boy could we use someone like that right now. AM blew it big time by not retaining him. AM has to be held accountable for that.

Here some excerpts from the bio on Cornell from the Iowa State men's team's webpages:

Coach Hoiberg appointed Coach Mann as the lead defensive coach at Iowa State which fits well with his high energy and style over substance approach. Mann believes in hard work and holding players accountable on the court and in the classroom.

In his short time in Ames, Mann has already brought with him the Michigan pipeline, having recruited four players from his home state. Sophomore Percy Gibson (Detroit Southeastern) played in 29 games as a true freshman, averaging 4.8 points and 2.0 rebounds. Gibson was Iowa State's most efficient scorer, leading the team in field goal percentage at 65.6 (59-90 FG) and shot 71.4 percent from the field in the last eight games he played. He was considered the top post player in Michigan in the Class of 2011 and was named to the Detroit Free Press' Six-Player Dream Team as a senior after averaging 21.2 points, 12.0 rebounds and 2.5 blocks. Redshirt freshman SG Sherron Dorsey-Walker (Detroit Pershing) was rated No. 125 in the Rivals.com rankings and listed as the second-best player out of Michigan in the Class of 2012.

Mann has 11 years of experience as an assistant coach at the Division I level. He has also qualified for NCAA Tournament play and has won a conference championship at each of his four assistant coaching stops. Prior to his arrival at Iowa State, Mann spent three years at Dayton where he helped lead the Flyers to three-straight postseason berths.

In Mann's first season at Dayton (2008-09), the Flyers were ranked in the top-25, finished the season with the second-most victories in school history (27) and advanced to the second round of the NCAA Tournament. Dayton defeated West Virginia in the first round. The Flyers were 25-12 and won the 2010 NIT Championship in Mann's second season and UD went 22-14 and advanced to the finals of the Atlantic-10 Tournament in 2010-11. UD made the 2011 NIT and had three players earn all-conference recognition.

Prior to his stint at UD, Mann coached at Western Michigan for five seasons, helping the Broncos win three Mid-American Conference West Division championships. The Broncos made the NCAA in 2004 and the NIT in 2005, and helped recruit and tutor five guards who earned All-Mac accolades. Mann was an assistant at Central Michigan for two seasons before his tenure at WMU, as the Chippewas advanced to the second round of the 2003 NCAA Tournament. Mann played one season at Colorado before transferring to Akron, where competed three seasons for the Zips, earning the program's top defensive player and ranking among the league leader in steals.


Cornell would have been a huge benefit for this staff and program. And if retained, Archie wouldn't have needed to go to that Dunkin' Donuts shop two years ago.

[Dogdaddy]

In life, if you look for unhappiness you will find it. If you look for happiness, you will find it. Might I suggest you spend a little time looking for happiness, it is more fun.

[longtimefan]

I don't think you can really criticize AM for that (I guess you can if you want to). New head coaches seldom retain assistants from the previous regime. They want to start fresh with people they are familiar with and feel comfortable with.

[CE80]

Didn't Mann get a DUI right before Archie got there?

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by CE80 Didn't Mann get a DUI right before Archie got there?

Yes, and it was discussed on UDPride starting on 4-28-11. UDan71 was upset it was posted and wanted it removed. Others were saying it was public information, and if Mann didn't want it in the public domain, he shouldn't have done it.

[Lifelong Flyer Fan]

According to articles I saw, that incident occurred after he was named an asst. at ISU. It did not happen before Archie got here, and had nothing to do with him not being retained.

[UDan71]

My position was that "we" UD Pride posters didn't need to publicize his transgression further (which happened after he was let go by AM - who knows, being let go may have contributed to him drinking that night).

As XUBrew stated quite well in the same discussion:

"I also don't think that feeling compassion is the same thing as making an excuse. Stating that you're sorry this has happened and that you hope it works out is not the same thing as condoning it. Smart people will still occassionally do dumb things. I can easily see how this could happen. However, I don't feel that I'm making an excuse for him when I say that. I don't think anyone else is either."

[TA111]

Why would a new coach keep an assistant from the prior regime? It never happens. The new coach brings in his own people. I'm not sure why this is even being discussed.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by TA111 Why would a new coach keep an assistant from the prior regime?

1) Gibson
2) Henton

Without Mann you know their gone. With him, there's a chance they stay. If you keep him and they still decide to leave, you can then 'help' him find another job.

Miller's transition could have been alot easier had he not been such a pompous you-know-what after getting the head coaching job. Which is, as I see it, part of the problem as it still appears that he wants to act like a head coach instead of being one.

We needed Henton and Gibson. Instead we end up with Gavrilovic.

Bad trade.

[UDBrian]

I don't think it was possible to keep Mann. When you come in as a new coach you need buy in from the existing players. You don't want them to go to a previous coach to complain about the new system or new coaches.

[rollo]

In hindsight - which as my moms says 'is always 50/50' - I wish Archie had done something/anything to keep Henton and Gibson.

[NorthwestFlyer]

Even if Mann stayed, it is no guarantee that we keep the recruits, and he would have wanted to stay to work for Archie. Losing Mann was a shame and an expected part of the transition a lot of folks were crying for when they were calling for BGs head. As stated then - be careful what you wish for. The unknown consequences of BG leaving are just that, unknown. It was apparently time to move on then, and it is time to keep moving forward now. Archie gets some more time, it is no surprise that we have fallen backwards slightly to move forward later. It happens a lot with transitions, houses get cleaned.

Another house cleaning at this time would really be a set back. Archie should be working on skills for the current players and beefing up the freshman and just as importantly looking for recruits for the 2014 class.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by rollo We needed Henton and Gibson. Instead we end up with Gavrilovic.

And Robinson and Scott.

[rollo]

that was the next recruiting class...gavs was brought in to replace those we lost.

[TA111]

Did Gibson see the floor yesterday for Iowa St?

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by TA111 Did Gibson see the floor yesterday for Iowa St?

2 minutes of garbage time.

[THirt]

Emphasis on "garbage" time. He looked bad. Didn't really box out, didn't look very quick or interested, didn't look good in my opinion.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by rollo that was the next recruiting class...gavs was brought in to replace those we lost.

I know that, but if we already had Gibson we might not have gotten Robinson and/or Scott. And Gibson doesn't look that great for a sophomore. Just like a head coach wants assistants he knows and is familiar with, he wants players he has scouted and is familiar with. He wants "his" players. Who knows, if we had Henton maybe Pierre wouldn't have committed.

[TA111]

Originally Posted by THirt Emphasis on "garbage" time. He looked bad. Didn't really box out, didn't look very quick or interested, didn't look good in my opinion.

Then maybe this thread should be re-named "great move by AM".

[Sea Bass]

dead horse but keep beating

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by rollo Miller's transition could have been alot easier had he not been such a pompous you-know-what after getting the head coaching job.

Well, he certainly isn't the only pompous you know what around here!

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan I know that, but if we already had Gibson we might not have gotten Robinson and/or Scott. And Gibson doesn't look that great for a sophomore. Just like a head coach wants assistants he knows and is familiar with, he wants players he has scouted and is familiar with. He wants "his" players. Who knows, if we had Henton maybe Pierre wouldn't have committed.

UD might not have landed Derenbecker, Sibert, or Pollard either. Who knows. The domino effect of this stuff is never ending.

There was no guarantee that if Mann had been kept, that Gibson and Henton would have stayed.

Heck, even if Mann or Schmidt had been chosen as the next head coach, there would have been no guarantee that Gibson and Henton would have stayed.

Quite often, players commit to the head coach not the program.

[Chris R]

What if we keep Mann, our defense maintains its Gregory-esque prowess, and our offense -- because of no Kevin Kuwik et al -- gets no better? We're right where we left off when BG quit and took the GT job. Thats no kind of progress.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[UDGRIZZ2010]

Why is it that everyone has to whine and moan about what could have been. Quit living in the past, what's done is done. None of you have ever been a coach and had to make these difficult decisions so quit blaming Archie for everything. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing this crap. Oh, if Archie would have done this right, oh if Archie would have done this better. I'm sick and tired of it. It gets really old, really fast. He's a young coach, there will always be growing pains. If you're gunna keep beating a dead horse, do it somewhere else cuz frankly, everyone is tired of hearing it.
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[Atlantic 10]

A new coaching staff has to establish relationships with players, 2 transfers and AG. That is what AM got his 1st few days on the job. You see players de committing when a new coach arrives on the scene.

[NCkevi]

As much as we would love to have Gonzaga's success in getting into the NCAA tournament and as much as people say they want to replicate that, I wonder how many threads we would have calling for a new coach if the past 10 seasons we got a bid every year but even with 5x being a 4 or better the best we could do was 2 sweet sixteen appearances

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Sarge Well, he certainly isn't the only pompous you know what around here!

You forgot bulbous, generous, cantankerous, delicious, gregarious, industrious, sensuous, marvelous, odoriferous, preposterous, infamous, and my personal favorite, Fabulous!

In fact, you can call me lots of things....except cheap, drunk, petty, weak, naive or stupid...and I won't put up an argument.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by rollo You forgot bulbous, generous, cantankerous, delicious, gregarious, industrious, sensuous, marvelous, odoriferous, preposterous, infamous, and my personal favorite, Fabulous! In fact, you can call me lots of things....except cheap, drunk, petty, weak, naive or stupid...and I won't put up an argument.

Rollo, UDPride's own Reggie Jackson.

[Flyer68]

Not certain why this is still an issue except that it may have disrupted a recruiting pipeline into Michigan? But if Mann was such a good coach etc., why wouldn't UD have offered him the head coach position instead of looking elsewhere? Mann would have been easier transition; known the players, the program, the league etc.

[jack72]

Henton or Gibson would not have been such a great difference. If they were here our record would be similar and there would be a thread about "too bad they did not opt out of here when BG left"

Gibson is average and Henton is great on offense. Like we need more offense.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by TA111 Did Gibson see the floor yesterday for Iowa St?

My brother-in-law went to Iowa State, follows the team closely and keep me informed about everything Cyclones...and according to him the fans at ISU love Gibson...his problem this year are the 6 seniors on the team, a couple of which play ahead of him.

Barring something unforseen, Gibson will be an anchor in the middle for ISU the next 2 seasons.

[THirt]

That would explain why freshmen Georges Niang starts, then. I'd rather have Robinson or Scott than Gibson.
Posted via Mobile Device

[SHQCKEY]

Gibson plays for a team that has glaring weaknesses in the post and he can't even get off the bench as a sophmore. Can we please stop with all this? Even if Mann stays, and Henton and Gibson stay on board we are only marginally better at best. If Mann was retained which current assistant would we not have? Whoever recruited Scott, Robinson, Pierre, Smith, or Pollard?

[m21eagle45]

How do we even know Mann wanted to stay? I have yet to see anything that said he wanted to stay with Archie. And then to make the assumption that if he stayed LH and PG would have stayed? Sounds like a lot of assumptions to stir the pot.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by THirt That would explain why freshmen Georges Niang starts, then. I'd rather have Robinson or Scott than Gibson. Posted via Mobile Device

Interesting point, both Nang and Gibson are power forwards.

[rollo]

Gibson was 7th in minutes played....4 of the players ahead of him are seniors...Big 12 is physical...fans seem to like him...it think he'll be alright.

But we don't need anyone who couldn't start for a BCS team...

No offense intended Vee...or Sibert....

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by rollo Gibson was 7th in minutes played....4 of the players ahead of him are seniors...Big 12 is physical...fans seem to like him...it think he'll be alright. But we don't need anyone who couldn't start for a BCS team... No offense intended Vee...or Sibert....

Vee was behind the other Chris Wright and Sibert was behind Craft, Diebler and Buford. Those are 4 very good players to be stuck behind. ISU does not exactly have players close to this in front of Gibson.

	Chris Wright CHRIS WRIGHT 6-8 225lb | Trotwood Madison, HS (OH) A10 All Rookie Team. Preseason 2008 2nd Team All A10. Member of the UD Flight Club with a 40+ inch vertical leap. Consensus Top-75 national recruit. Uncle is former Flyer J.D. Grigsby. Nickname is Top Flyght. CAREER STATS 2007-08 10.4ppg 5.7rpg

[rollo]

If you really look at their stats/game logs, very little playing time was given to them once their conference play started. An argument could be made that they were behind everyone except the walk-ons.

And if Gibson doesn't develop a 3-point shot, he may end up in the same position. ISU can shoot!

[m21eagle45]

I agree, but one could also argue most teams shorten their bench once conference play starts. Matta is known for only playing 6 or 7 players, and that goes back to before Oden, Cook, ect.

[Angry John]

Several points to be made here:

1. People seem to forget that we also lost the previous recruiting class too. Spearman was an academic casualty and Archie let the team decide on weather or not to take Staten back when he asked to be allowed back on the team after he had decided to leave. Archie handled that situation very well, because Staten was trouble. But that also means you can't lose a second recruiting class.
2. Times have changed, kids today are committed to the coach rather than the school. Many times they are more committed to the recruiting assistant coach. The only exception on a kid being committed to a school, would a be possibly a local kid.
3. The way kids are today, you have to adapt to the situation and throw out the old ways of thinking. One way of doing that is to keep one of the recruiting coaches that got the kids come to the school. I realize they might not be a match philosophically or a personality wise, which could prevent the coach from being hired. If they are a match and it does not work out, you can always releave them of their duties the following year. I would not hire any of the x's and o's assistants, but I would take a flyer on a recruiter.
4. Cornell Mann wanted to stay as a coach with UD. He was named Interim Head Coach by the University after BG took the Georgia Tech job.
5. Reports from the "DDN" was that Archie never met with Cornell Mann during this process. Mann stated he was disappointed. In my opinion, that is pompous and leads to the question, how do you know if they were a fit? Archie never made an effort. End result was we lost two recruiting classes.
6. There is a difference between the X's and O's and recruiting coaches.
7. NFL teams will keep one to two old assistants sometimes when they change head coaches. Classic example was when Mike Tomlin kept Dick LeBeau as defensive coordinator for the Steelers when he became head coach. Tomlin, who was a 4-3 guy, kept the 3-4 defense going with LeBeau.
8. Mann had a lot of connections in the State of Michigan. Those doors had been openned by with Gregory, Jackson and Mann. Not hiring Mann kind of closed the Michigan door.
9. If we had kept Mann, we might have had a crack at Korey Lucious, who transferred from Michigan State to Iowa State. Just remember Gibson followed Mann to Iowa State and Ladonta Henton followed Mark Jackson to Providence.
10. Too many fans and I do believe the AD think you have to allow for a transition period. I say, it can be cut down considerably if you make the right moves. Archie and Wabler were thinking too much like it was 1995.

This type of mistake along with all the other types we have made add up and has put us in the situation we are today.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by Angry John Several points to be made here: 1. People seem to forget that we also lost the previous recruiting class too. Spearman was an academic casualty and Archie let the team decide on weather or not to take Staten back when he asked to be allowed back on the team after he had decided to leave. Archie handled that situation very well, because Staten was trouble. But that also means you can't lose a second recruiting class. 2. Times have changed, kids today are committed to the coach rather than the school. Many times they are more committed to the recruiting assistant coach. The only exception on a kid being committed to a school, would a be possibly a local kid. 3. The way kids are today, you have to adapt to the situation and throw out the old ways of thinking. One way of doing that is to keep one of the recruiting coaches that got the kids come to the school. I realize they might not be a match philosophically or a personality wise, which could prevent the coach from being hired. If they are a match and it does not work out, you can always releave them of their duties the following year. I would not hire any of the x's and o's assistants, but I would take a flyer on a recruiter. 4. Cornell Mann wanted to stay as a coach with UD. He was named Interim Head Coach by the University after BG took the Georgia Tech job. 5. Reports from the "DDN" was that Archie never met with Cornell Mann during this process. Mann stated he was disappointed. In my opinion, that is pompous and leads to the question, how do you know if they were a fit? Archie never made an effort. End result was we lost two recruiting classes. 6. There is a difference between the X's and O's and recruiting coaches. 7. NFL teams will keep one to two old assistants sometimes when they change head coaches. Classic example was when Mike Tomlin kept Dick LeBeau as defensive coordinator for the Steelers when he became head coach. Tomlin, who was a 4-3 guy, kept the 3-4 defense going with LeBeau. 8. Mann had a lot of connections in the State of Michigan. Those doors had been openned by with Gregory, Jackson and Mann. Not hiring Mann kind of closed the Michigan door. 9. If we had kept Mann, we might have had a crack at Korey Lucious, who transferred from Michigan State to Iowa State. Just remember Gibson followed Mann to Iowa State and Ladonta Henton followed Mark Jackson to Providence. 10. Too many fans and I do believe the AD think you have to allow for a transition period. I say, it can be cut down considerably if you make the right moves. Archie and Wabler were thinking too much like it was 1995. This type of mistake along with all the other types we have made add up and has put us in the situation we are today.

Who is the Jackson you keep bringing up? I checked back to even before my time working at UD and cannot find a coach there named Mark Jackson.

Edit: I found Mike Jackson on Providence Staff and he had time at UD, but he left in 05. Way before we would have been recruiting LH.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[Angry John]

Excuse me, my bad, it is Mike Jackson. Former University of Detroit guard who was BG's recruiting assistant coach. He was probably here from like 2003 through 2006. He later on went to Michigan and was an assitant coach under Tommy Amaker.

[UACFlyer]

John made some good observations, in my opinion.

UConn's iconic Jim Calhoun retired suddenly. He was replaced by his #4 Ranking assistant....#4,....who retained all three of the guys ahead of him, and all are expected to stay on the staff next year.

Now, there are many differences between the UC and UD situations. But, also many similarities. Among them, the UConn team was decimated, losing four of its top six players, two as NBA lottery picks and two transfers. There was no frontcourt.

The new head coach had no experience as a head coach. Indeed, he had but two years experience as an assistant. His situation was so dicey and uncertain that he was given a seven month contract.

Further, UC lost three players to injuries during the last two weeks of the season. The record? 20-10 overall and 10-8 in the "real" Big East.

I am abolutely convinced that the 100% continuity of the staff of assistants played a vital role in what turned out to be a very good season.

The head coach is the CEO....but, top quality assistants are critical.

[NCkevi]

Does anyone know of any examples where a newly hired coach, not on the previous staff, retained any assistant coaches?

[rollo]

Urban Meyer not only kept some former assistants, but he also kept the previous head coach.

And it worked out pretty well.

[UDBrian]

Did BG attempt to get mann to follow him?

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by rollo Urban Meyer not only kept some former assistants, but he also kept the previous head coach. And it worked out pretty well.

Urban was forced to keep Fickle on his staff.

[Bill McPeek]

We can speculate all we want. Should Ron Jirsa (sp?) been given the job when OP left? We can on and on. Should Archie have retained any of BG's assistants? Come on, that's grasping at straws. Look at the facts. We lost 2 recruiting classes when BG left.......Staten and Spearman, then Henton and Gibson. Not one, but 2 freakin' classes! Then Kavs is not allowed to play. Then we lose games in every conceivable fashion. Luck somehow involved? Could Archie have coached better in those losses? I'm sure if you ask him he would tell you "yes". But that is very simplistic. I have always believed, in many sports, that many games are won and lost, not on the field or court, but on the practice field or court.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 Urban was forced to keep Fickle on his staff.

Kerry Combs, Stan Drayton and Mike Vrable were also retained by Meyer.

[NCkevi]

Originally Posted by rollo Urban Meyer not only kept some former assistants, but he also kept the previous head coach. And it worked out pretty well.

I don't know - I think most UD fans would be upset with a 12 win season
Maybe if wanted to keep Mann we should have hired Nick Saban

[Angry John]

Kudos to Rollo for giving some more specific examples of coaches holding on to coaches from the previous staffs. John Cooper of Miami, Ohio held on to one of Charlie Coles's assistants, though it was one of the younger coaches.

BG tried to keep Postorino, who was on Purnell's staff, but he went to Marshall with Jirsa. He should have tried to keep Shaka Smart.

The most disappointing thing was that Archie did not meet with Mann to even give it chance. I am sorry, that is not grasping at straws, that is mistakes that come back to haunt you. In today's sports world, you have very little room when it comes to a margain of error.

I know there is a coaching philosophy out their that believes in bringing all your coaches, because of trust, philosophical reasons or fear of sabotage from the previous coaching staff. But there are positives in keeping a coach from the previous administration too. From helping in the transition, to knowing the kids and to keeping a recruiting class in tact.

Today, too many coaches, AD or GMs think you have to blow up things to get your system. Rather than to have an adjustment period, they want to go cold turkey to their system. Just check the recent history of the Cleveland Browns.

[Sea Bass]

was at the OSU/ISU game today. Gibson looked really good in his warmups.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Angry John Kudos to Rollo for giving some more specific examples of coaches holding on to coaches from the previous staffs. John Cooper of Miami, Ohio held on to one of Charlie Coles's assistants, though it was one of the younger coaches. BG tried to keep Postorino, who was on Purnell's staff, but he went to Marshall with Jirsa. He should have tried to keep Shaka Smart. The most disappointing thing was that Archie did not meet with Mann to even give it chance. I am sorry, that is not grasping at straws, that is mistakes that come back to haunt you. In today's sports world, you have very little room when it comes to a margain of error. I know there is a coaching philosophy out their that believes in bringing all your coaches, because of trust, philosophical reasons or fear of sabotage from the previous coaching staff. But there are positives in keeping a coach from the previous administration too. From helping in the transition, to knowing the kids and to keeping a recruiting class in tact. Today, too many coaches, AD or GMs think you have to blow up things to get your system. Rather than to have an adjustment period, they want to go cold turkey to their system. Just check the recent history of the Cleveland Browns.

...putting a man on Mars or curing cancer. We're talking about coaching basketball.

For a new incoming coach not to conduct a thorough interview with every member of the old staff is absolutely nuts,...stupid,...even irresponsible. (Of course, I am assuming there has not been an occurrence mandating a clean sweep.)

One or more of the current assistants may be a jewel. The departing coach may wish to take one or more along with him. But, coaches have families, some like their jobs and where they live. At least meet with these guys individually,,,and of course, seek counsel from the AD. In fact, in my opinion, the AD should insist on the new guy at least give the staff a look.

To ignore the current staff entirely seems really dumb.,,,anything but mature judgment. It doesn't take a genius to understand that complete absence of any form of continuity is not a good thing. Do people like AM need to be told that?

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass was at the OSU/ISU game today. Gibson looked really good in his warmups.

How did Dillard look? Gavs? Sibert?

[Bill McPeek]

Sorry, I don't buy all the above. It's grasping at straws to assume that the reason for our lack of success this past year was due to Archie not retaining BG's assistants. I don't buy it one bit.

[Sea Bass]

ISU has no post player and Gibson can't get off the bench. ISU plays 2 guards, 2 small forwards and an undersized PF (Niang).

Maybe Gibson is all that but he wasn't today.

[Sea Bass]

keeping a assistant coach around for one player is just a dumb idea. If you keep a guy because you believe he is the right guy, that is different. Henton and Mann would not have turned this program around, instead it is going to take a number of good players.

So silly to rehash this because if Archie had retained Mann who would have been gone a month later, no way a coach survives a DUI at UD. There may be a number of valid reasons to question Archie, not retaining Cornell Mann is not one of them.

[Bill McPeek]

Sea Bass, why do you always state responses much more eloquently than I?

[FlyerFanatic08]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass keeping a assistant coach around for one player is just a dumb idea. If you keep a guy because you believe he is the right guy, that is different. Henton and Mann would not have turned this program around, instead it is going to take a number of good players. So silly to rehash this because if Archie had retained Mann who would have been gone a month later, no way a coach survives a DUI at UD. There may be a number of valid reasons to question Archie, not retaining Cornell Mann is not one of them.

spot on.


listen i am absolutely down with the idea about keeping coaches around...but that means promoting head coaches from within. not keeping coaches simply because they might keep recruits around.

i think it should absolutely be stated that part of the HC responsibility needs to be basically grooming an assistant to take over potentially. what that entails...i have no idea..thats for others who are making more money to decide along with archie. i would guess maybe archie starts by giving them a little more responsibility than other assistants. up to coaches discretion really. whatever he feels helps.

i don't think its fair to tell a coach he has to keep one on staff and make sure they stick around or something like that. just make it clear you would like to keep continuity if possible...and having a successor near ready/ready to lead dayton would be nice.

[jack72]

We have a bunch of people pointing out our lack of recruiting top players who can do more than one basketball skill, but now some want the guy back who recruited who? Some of these players. And as for drying up our Michigan connection, who have we landed from MI that is a stud? Oh right Johnny Davis. What top MI kids do not end up at MSU or UM? Where we are really failing is in Indiana. How may good players are from Indiana, which is in our backyard.

[Angry John]

I wish Sea Bass, Bill McPeek and FlyerFanatic08 would coach the Pittsburgh Steelers or the Ohio State Buckeys, because with their type of logic, they would have fired Dick LeBeau and Kerry Combs because they were insistant on their own type of coaches. With those guys in charge, maybe those teams would finally stink now.

Yea, grasping at straws, don't make waves, no need to correct mistakes, speak eloquently, be patient, everything is fine but a few bumps on the road are what these guys stand for. While in the meantime, we lost two recruiting classes and have had three mediocre years, which probably will keep us out of the "New Big East". Other than that everything is fine.

I also like how they are picking on Percy Gibson, but leave out losing a stud like LeDonta Henton who stands a chance of playing in the NBA. Could have gotten Korey Lucious too if Mann had stayed around.

I agree with jack72 on neglecting the Indiana market. I would take one of those rural type of gym rats that can shoot. The type of player Butler gets.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by rollo Urban Meyer not only kept some former assistants, but he also kept the previous head coach. And it worked out pretty well.

That is football, not basketball. Totally different.

[FlyerFanatic08]

Originally Posted by Angry John I wish Sea Bass, Bill McPeek and FlyerFanatic08 would coach the Pittsburgh Steelers or the Ohio State Buckeys, because with their type of logic, they would have fired Dick LeBeau and Kerry Combs because they were insistant on their own type of coaches. With those guys in charge, maybe those teams would finally stink now. Yea, grasping at straws, don't make waves, no need to correct mistakes, speak eloquently, be patient, everything is fine but a few bumps on the road are what these guys stand for. While in the meantime, we lost two recruiting classes and have had three mediocre years, which probably will keep us out of the "New Big East". Other than that everything is fine. I also like how they are picking on Percy Gibson, but leave out losing a stud like LeDonta Henton who stands a chance of playing in the NBA. Could have gotten Korey Lucious too if Mann had stayed around. I agree with jack72 on neglecting the Indiana market. I would take one of those rural type of gym rats that can shoot. The type of player Butler gets.

some silly logic overall here. not even going to respond to it.

[longtimefan]

I can't remember exactly who it was , but I believe it was Henton's high school coach, who said something like "now he can play at the level he deserves" when Henton got out of his LOI and signed with a BCS conference team. I thought at the time, then why the hell didn't he sign with a BCS team initially. There is NO guarantee he would have stayed committed to UD even if Mann had stayed.

[ud2]

Hey Rollo, I just want to ask if you were this critical of BG after 2 years?

I'm sure that by BG's 5th year, you definitely wanted him fired. I mean come on, 4 years in a row with no NCAA tournament appearances. That's indefensible by your standards.

2003–2004 Dayton 24–9 12–4 1st (East) NCAA 1st Round
2004–2005 Dayton 18–11 10–6 T–2nd (East)
2005–2006 Dayton 14–17 6–10 T–11th
2006–2007 Dayton 19–12 8–8 T–7th
2007–2008 Dayton 23–11 8–8 T–7th NIT Quarterfinals

[Angry John]

Sorry longtimefan, coaching is coaching and it does not matter what sport it takes place in.

I gave you an example with Miami's John Cooper taking one of Charlie Coles's assistants. I will give you a strange example of that happening in the mid 1990s. The California Angeles fired Marcel Lachman as their manager at the end of the season. The next season the new manager brought him back as the Pitching Coach. I even asked the Equipment Manager about that out at their spring training facility in Phoenix, Arizona. He said the new manager and the GM wanted him back because he was a heck of pitching coach. Marcel just was not comfortable of being the skipper.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by ud2 Hey Rollo, I just want to ask if you were this critical of BG after 2 years? I'm sure that by BG's 5th year, you definitely wanted him fired. I mean come on, 4 years in a row with no NCAA tournament appearances. That's indefensible by your standards. 2003–2004 Dayton 24–9 12–4 1st (East) NCAA 1st Round 2004–2005 Dayton 18–11 10–6 T–2nd (East) 2005–2006 Dayton 14–17 6–10 T–11th 2006–2007 Dayton 19–12 8–8 T–7th 2007–2008 Dayton 23–11 8–8 T–7th NIT Quarterfinals

Actually, after his 3rd year I was screaming for him to hire an offensive assistant...and to sit his butt down during play.

Now I'm screaming for Miller to hire a defensive assistant...

Clear?

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Angry John Sorry longtimefan, coaching is coaching and it does not matter what sport it takes place in.

I guess most new college basketball head coaches are just stupid then, because more often than not they don't keep assistants from the previous staff.

[udflyerhoops2]

...but,

If it is true that BG left on his own accord to escape the mess created here by (enter your scapegoat), and had he not left, the masses were calling for his head anyway, how can anyone logically tell me that the assistant coaches that BG had on his staff be any better than him?

There is a conflicting theme here that keeps popping up to me.

The difference in most situations where assistant coaches are retained is that the program was coming off highly successful runs or a longtime coach is retiring.

Let's take STL. In this instance, they kept an assistant on as HC while Coach Majerus was battling his sickness. This was a no brainer with the thought that Rick was going to be back. Now tell me...with that team in place, was there any coach, on staff or hired from outside, that wasn't going to succeed.

Maybe I'm babbling here, and I probably am, but I liked BG, however I too grew tired of the perceived stagnation. A clean cut and a fresh start, top to bottom was the needed remedy at the time. Holding on to Mann should not have been on Archie's agenda. You think he didn't know the climate he was walking into? You leave a BG holdover on the bench and you are asking for an unnecessary barrage of displeasure from the highly vocal group of BG bashers. That was not something Archie needed to deal with.

We as Flyer Faithful have grown accustomed to winning 20+ games and practically being guaranteed a post season spot. That was thanks to BG and his plan. Archie has now been charged with the task of improving on that newly acquired baseline. I think he is the guy to get us there, but he HAS TO DO IT HIS WAY. No holdover was going to change the trajectory of this program, so there's no reason to get on Archie for not maintaining a connection to the previous regime.

	Flyer Faithful FLYER FAITHFUL Best college basketball fans in the country. Knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and loyal. Help to create one of the toughest home courts in the nation at UD Arena. Over 12,000 fans a game put the Flyers in the Top-30 nationally in attendance. Fan spirit and support growing to other UD sports and athletic programs as well.

[UDan71]

Reading the posts from this thread I started makes it very clear that there are those of us (Angry John being a prime example) for whom the mediocrity in which this program is and has been mired for a long time is absolutely unsatisfactory... and then there are those who can find all kinds of excuses for why we haven't been as successful as everyone hopes we will be and are sure that success is just around the corner after AM learns on the job and becomes successful and even if we stay stuck in the A10, we're going to magically become one of the top programs in that league in just another year or two because we have great facilities and a very supportive fan base and why wouldn't good players want to come here. I keep reading all kinds of excuses and rationales from the latter folks and I'm really tired of it because all it means is that there's half our fan base who are satisfied with "entertainment" and will tolerate mediocrity because they enjoy the anticipation of looking forward to "next year" and the atmosphere in UD Arena on game days.

Big Time basketball is a BUSINESS, in case some of you hadn't noticed. That's why we're going to pull in $400K from CBS Sports next year instead of $3 Million from Fox. Business is all about the BOTTOM LINE. UD's overall basketball's performance bottom line has been in the RED for a long time. That's why we're on the outside looking in. As long as you apologists keep making excuses for our mediocre performance, the pressure on the university to re-evaluate how things are done and demand better results will be put on hold.

What we need is someone (Angry John?) to eloquently say:"I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!" (Go to the 2:30 mark in the clip found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q)

[Bill Elwood]

Originally Posted by UDan71 the pressure on the university to re-evaluate how things are done and demand better results will be put on hold.

and just what form does that pressure take??

[Avid Flyer]

Originally Posted by udflyerhoops2 ...but, If it is true that BG left on his own accord to escape the mess created here by (enter your scapegoat), and had he not left, the masses were calling for his head anyway, how can anyone logically tell me that the assistant coaches that BG had on his staff be any better than him? There is a conflicting theme here that keeps popping up to me. The difference in most situations where assistant coaches are retained is that the program was coming off highly successful runs or a longtime coach is retiring. Let's take STL. In this instance, they kept an assistant on as HC while Coach Majerus was battling his sickness. This was a no brainer with the thought that Rick was going to be back. Now tell me...with that team in place, was there any coach, on staff or hired from outside, that wasn't going to succeed. Maybe I'm babbling here, and I probably am, but I liked BG, however I too grew tired of the perceived stagnation. A clean cut and a fresh start, top to bottom was the needed remedy at the time. Holding on to Mann should not have been on Archie's agenda. You think he didn't know the climate he was walking into? You leave a BG holdover on the bench and you are asking for an unnecessary barrage of displeasure from the highly vocal group of BG bashers. That was not something Archie needed to deal with. We as Flyer Faithful have grown accustomed to winning 20+ games and practically being guaranteed a post season spot. That was thanks to BG and his plan. Archie has now been charged with the task of improving on that newly acquired baseline. I think he is the guy to get us there, but he HAS TO DO IT HIS WAY. No holdover was going to change the trajectory of this program, so there's no reason to get on Archie for not maintaining a connection to the previous regime.

Many posters either have short memories or just like to complain. Many were calling for BG's head and didn't like the substitution patter. Well whom besides BG were decision makers in that substitution pattern, yep you guessed it. So keeping the assistant coaches would have been keeping the substitution pattern many complained about. It was obvious to anyone following the flyers under BG is the assistants were the ones keeping track of the substitutions and putting the players in.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer Many posters either have short memories or just like to complain. Many were calling for BG's head and didn't like the substitution patter. Well whom besides BG were decision makers in that substitution pattern, yep you guessed it. So keeping the assistant coaches would have been keeping the substitution pattern many complained about. It was obvious to anyone following the flyers under BG is the assistants were the ones keeping track of the substitutions and putting the players in.

IIRC, it was Schmidt who coordinated many (if not most) of the substitutions. So to keep any of the coaches from the previous regime would have been to validate that regime, and there was a general agreement that the time had come for a change, so "no holdovers" was IMHO a good decision by AM.

That said, AM definitely needs for someone on his staff to be a guru of defense, and if the current stable of assistants isn't capable of coaching NCAA tourney-level defense, then he needs to make a change. Gotta have at least 1 guy who can coach that discipline at a high level.

Finally, in re UDan71's comments about accepting mediocrity, IMHO the ones who need to stop accepting mediocrity first and foremost are the people running the show. Many on this board (and many of my Flyer friends) expressed loud frustration with BG's bullheaded dedication to his system, which was obviously costing us victories (and now, possibly, a NBE invite). Maybe the only good time to let him go would have been in the wake of the 2005-06 season, but that's ancient history at this point.

The key is to not repeat that history, and IMHO 2013-14 is AM's "put-up-or-be-ready-to-get-out" year. He'll have just 1 (maybe 2, if Kav returns) of BG's guys left, and his roster will be loaded with guys who were recruited by (and 3 who spent time in) BCS programs. That should be a good enough talent pool to be a top-level A10 program NEXT YEAR. Anything short of The First Four (i.e. making The Dance) will be unacceptable at this point.

[Angry John]

Gregory did three things outstanding in coaching: recruiting, defense and rebounding.
He was bad at coaching offense, adapting to defensive changes and developing players.

I think what hurt BG was that his coaching background was strickly Big 10 (One year at Toledo) and that he was the recruiting coach for Izzo.

If you look at the Big 10, it is strictly man to man defense. The lone exception would be Northwestern. In the Atlantic 10, you have all type of defenses and styles throwed at you. From zones to 1-3-1 half court traps to Triangle and 2s to Havoc to the Princeton system run by Mooney to the Calipari system run by Kellogg at UMass. Gregory did not know how to adjust to it.

At least Miller does know how to deal with those type of defenses better than Gregory. We just need some defense.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[UDan71]

I agree wholeheartedly with T-Bone. 2013-14 is a make-or-break year for AM. He'll have almost all of the team as his own recruits and if he's got what it takes, then we should be in the top 3-4 in the league. If Kav had been on the team this year, it would probably have meant another 4-5 wins, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a VERY good season next year - if the coaching is up to snuff. I personally think he needs to immediately hire an assistant that's very strong at defensive X's and O's. AM seems to be the opposite of BG - good offense, no defense.

When I talk about not accepting mediocrity (and I totally agree that the school administration bears ultimate responsibility for this), UCLA clearly demonstrates the mentality that's needed to produce a top-flight program. They fired Coach Ben Howland whose on-court performance at UCLA was sterling. He reached three consecutive Final Fours between 2006 and 2008. He has more Final Four appearances than all of the other current Pac-12 coaches combined (one). He won at least 25 games in five of his 10 seasons. UCLA is fresh off a Pac-12 regular season title this season. And he got fired because, as their AD said, "I looked at entire program and where I felt we were especially headed into next year. I felt like now was an appropriate time to make a change and get a fresh start."

It's VERY clear what the expectations are there. UD seems to have tepid expectations.

[Angry John]

I liked Dan 71's assessment of this thread. The fact that some people are tired of the mediocrity and want problems adressed and corrected, while some think things are alright with just a few bumps and that everybody should follow the company line.

Some of this probably comes down to a person's personality and what career path they do for employment. A lot of time, a person's psyche developes from their workplace.

On firing Ben Howland, if you look at his record, it would appear the firing might have been premature, but he was having a lot of problems with his players this year. I don't know all the details on what is going on behind the scenes, so it is rough to get a good feel on if he should be fired. I do know that UCLA has expectations of where their program should be.

I do know that the current administration had a big goal to be in "The New Big East". As of now, they have failed to meet that expectation. Can this goal be still met ? Maybe, but the odds are around 15% to 20% of this happening. Hope I am wrong and then people can feel free to dog the heck out of me for being a hyped up "Charlies Sheen" spazz.

A Plan B needs to be in overdrive, weather joining the American 12 Conference or shoring up the A-10. Good moves would be keeping UD, St. Louis, UMass and VCU in the league. Add George Mason, Witchita State or Valpo or get Temple back. Siena adds nothing.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by UDan71 Reading the posts from this thread I started makes it very clear that there are those of us (Angry John being a prime example) for whom the mediocrity in which this program is and has been mired for a long time is absolutely unsatisfactory... and then there are those who can find all kinds of excuses for why we haven't been as successful as everyone hopes we will be and are sure that success is just around the corner after AM learns on the job and becomes successful and even if we stay stuck in the A10, we're going to magically become one of the top programs in that league in just another year or two because we have great facilities and a very supportive fan base and why wouldn't good players want to come here. I keep reading all kinds of excuses and rationales from the latter folks and I'm really tired of it because all it means is that there's half our fan base who are satisfied with "entertainment" and will tolerate mediocrity because they enjoy the anticipation of looking forward to "next year" and the atmosphere in UD Arena on game days.

I think you are misreading many of the posters. I doubt anyone who takes the time to post on a fan message board is "satisfied with mediocrity". Many, like me, just think that 2 years is too short of a timeline to judge AM. You hear "excuse" when someone brings up that 2 recruiting years were lost. I just consider it a fact.

Yes, this year was painful. However, as I've stated, this team was not getting blown out by anyone. I consider the glass more than half full right now. I'm willing to give AM 2 more years to right the ship. I look at the players coming in vs. the players leaving and I see an improved team next year ON PAPER. It is up to AM to get over the hump.

If AM doesn't, then I'll contribute for the plane ticket out of town and I'll contribute the fund for UD to get an existing head coach that has been successful in the past. I'll do that because after two times, the model of hiring a top assistant just didn't work and it is time to try a different approach.

In simple terms, it's too soon to b*tch and moan about every little thing. This whole thread is really kind of silly.

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by springborofan 2 years is too short of a timeline to judge AM. You hear "excuse" when someone brings up that 2 recruiting years were lost. I just consider it a fact.

the transition from OP to BG was orderly. The transition from BG to AM was anything but. 2 recruiting classes were basically lost.

At some point if coaches are not given 4-5 years to succeed then the constant churning will keep a program down. I noticed that Ole Miss got their first bid with Kennedy as the head coach, in year 7. A lot of coaches when they walk into a bad transition (an UD was that) are going to take 4 years unless the school is willing to take shortcuts.

Is Archie the right coach? I don't know and I don't believe anyone else does either. What I do know is that he deserves 4 years. If this team is going to get where they want to go the on ball defense is going to have to improve. I watched OSU play and win with 2 guards (Craft and Scott) yesterday who defend the heck out of the ball but neither is a good shooter.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by springborofan I think you are misreading many of the posters. I doubt anyone who takes the time to post on a fan message board is "satisfied with mediocrity". Many, like me, just think that 2 years is too short of a timeline to judge AM. You hear "excuse" when someone brings up that 2 recruiting years were lost. I just consider it a fact. Yes, this year was painful. However, as I've stated, this team was not getting blown out by anyone. I consider the glass more than half full right now. I'm willing to give AM 2 more years to right the ship. I look at the players coming in vs. the players leaving and I see an improved team next year ON PAPER. It is up to AM to get over the hump. If AM doesn't, then I'll contribute for the plane ticket out of town and I'll contribute the fund for UD to get an existing head coach that has been successful in the past. I'll do that because after two times, the model of hiring a top assistant just didn't work and it is time to try a different approach. In simple terms, it's too soon to b*tch and moan about every little thing. This whole thread is really kind of silly.

Exactly. It is ridiculous to say that half the fan base is "satisfied with 'entertainment' and will tolerate mediocrity" just because we don't go off on rants about retaining previous assistants or how terrible Archie is after only one recruiting class. That fallacy has been perpetuated on this board for some time, that just because some posters don't go around calling for people's heads and think Archie will do a good job after another recruiting class or two, they are "satisfied with mediocrity."

[rollo]

It's equally (or more) ridiculous to say you want to make the NCAA Tournament 5/7 or 7/10 years out of one side of your mouth and through the other say our new coaches should be give 4-5 years to produce.

Because once they produce they're gone...and we start over again.

In my world, we hire people who upon day 1 can 'hit the ground running'...meaning they have the education, training and experience to replace the person who held the job previously. We understand there will be (maybe) a 1-year period of hiccups, but in no way, shape or form do we expect them to take 4 years to catch up.

I gave Archie a pass last season. And that's it. Because if 1 year isn't enough time to figure out how to win with the enormous resources handed to him, he was the wrong hire.

[Bill Elwood]

Originally Posted by rollo It's equally (or more) ridiculous to say you want to make the NCAA Tournament 5/7 or 7/10 years out of one side of your mouth and through the other say our new coaches should be give 4-5 years to produce. Because once they produce they're gone...and we start over again. In my world, we hire people who upon day 1 can 'hit the ground running'...meaning they have the education, training and experience to replace the person who held the job previously. We understand there will be (maybe) a 1-year period of hiccups, but in no way, shape or form do we expect them to take 4 years to catch up. I gave Archie a pass last season. And that's it. Because if 1 year isn't enough time to figure out how to win with the enormous resources handed to him, he was the wrong hire.

If those "enormous resources" include all the talented basketball players you need, I'll agree. If it doesn't, then I don't.

Purely a guess, but I'm guessing Andy Enfield dosn't have "enormous resources" (except for Amanda!), but he does have some dynamite, talented, basketball-smart players.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

I am hoping that when Archies future replacement is interviewing for the UD job, he stays the heck off UDPride. Reading some of the comments demanding instant (or as soon as the second season) conference championships, tourney births, etc. might be enough to scare away the best of the best.

Some of you make it sound as though building a winning program is as easy as chuckin hamburgers at your local hamburger joint. It just aint that simple boys. If it was we would all be winners, well most of us at least.

[cj]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan I am hoping that when Archies future replacement is interviewing for the UD job, he stays the heck off UDPride. Reading some of the comments demanding instant (or as soon as the second season) conference championships, tourney births, etc. might be enough to scare away the best of the best. Some of you make it sound as though building a winning program is as easy as chuckin hamburgers at your local hamburger joint. It just aint that simple boys. If it was we would all be winners, well most of us at least.

Any coach that reads and listens to a message board should not be hired.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by longtimefan Exactly. It is ridiculous to say that half the fan base is "satisfied with 'entertainment' and will tolerate mediocrity" just because we don't go off on rants about retaining previous assistants or how terrible Archie is after only one recruiting class. That fallacy has been perpetuated on this board for some time, that just because some posters don't go around calling for people's heads and think Archie will do a good job after another recruiting class or two, they are "satisfied with mediocrity."

That.

___________________
Darkness deserves gratitude. It is the alleluia point at which we learn to understand that all growth does not take place in the sunlight.
- Sister Joan Chittister

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by cj Any coach that reads and listens to a message board should not be hired.

Sorry, I forgot my sarcasm font and smiley face with my post.

[Windy City Flyer]

The talk of AM being replaced is ridiculous. You have to give a coach time. 4-5 years is a minimum that coaches are given. I've said it before. Curran & Wabler need to provide AM with every resource he needs. Wabler needs to ask him what will allow him to be more successful. There isn't a coach that doesn't bring in his own assistants. Lastly, UD can't become a program that has a reputation for giving a short lease. It will only hurt our program more. Great coaches don't want to come to a program with a bad reputation.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.

[rollo]

Will someone with less testosterone pulsating through their veins and more knowledge of basketball please quantify and explain how a team is supposed to make the NCAA's 7 of 10 years if 6-8 of those years are set aside for the new coach (that we seem to get every 5-7 years) to bring in his own players AND adjust to being a head coach?

I mean, a waiting period makes sense if your previous coach was Jim O'Brien...but Archie replaced BG...who by many UDPriders raised the bar OP had set and had one heck of a successful run with our Flyers!

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we need to give Archie 4 years to build a program, like we did for OP, are we admitting that BG was more like....ohhhhh, never mind.

[Angry John]

I am sorry, the program was not in that bad of shape to be in a four to five year slump. Not like it was with O'Brien. It wasn't stellar either. Should only be in a two year slump.

Today, you can find replacements at the Juco level or through transfers. Another route is to get those 5th year seniors to transfer. Just like UK did with Mays from Wright State.

One of BG's early mistakes is that he got stuck with an out of proportion sized freshman class after his first year. He ended up recruiting something like five freshman, so we were young again during his first few years. He needed to have landed some Juco or transfers. At least Archie recognized this situation.

I agree with Rollo, under normal circumstances a coach does not need five years. Again some of our fans don't demand results or they still live in the "World of 1975 Basketball.

[rollo]

I'm soliciting funds for a loooong Rollo vacation. The more money you donate the longer I'll stay away...so it's a win-win for all!

So who's going to be the first to contribute?

[Angry John]

Unfortunately, the program did not move forward with Gregory. It went sideways to eventually slightly downward. His players were better, but they as a whole underachieved.

Still, it should not take four to five years to recover and it should not have been as slow out of the gate as it was with BG.

I am glad LaSalle made the Sweet 16, but UD's 2003-04, 2007-08 and 2009-10 teams were better. (2008-09 a smidgen worse) They just underachieved.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Angry John Unfortunately, the program did not move forward with Gregory. It went sideways to eventually slightly downward. His players were better, but they as a whole underachieved. Still, it should not take four to five years to recover and it should not have been as slow out of the gate as it was with BG.

Both factual observations.

Re the first, considering that UD now has players either in the NBA or with a foot in the door indicates that players in the BG era were improved over prior years.

But, while the players may have been better, the teams underachieved. A team is as good as it record shows it to be. Not better, not worse. And BG's last few teams were not nearly as good as anticipated or as they should have been.

Finally, coaches come and go; and UD is not a destination job. The UD administration is not managing the program as well as it should if every time a coach leaves program collapse follows, requiring years of rebuilding.

Such a process will always result in chaotic performance.

When a new guy like Miller comes in is he entirely on his own establishing a staff? I don't know. But, if so, maybe that's part of the problem. There are only ~ 100 really desirable Div 1 coaching jobs, in my opinion,....and the number of guys that would like those jobs is far, far greater.

Perhaps when Wabler hires a guy like AM part of the conversation should be a bit more frank. None of this, "I hope to be at UD a long time" stuff. Both Wabler and AM or whomever the new HC is know perfectly well that the new hire won't be at UD a "long time". Indeed, the more sucessful he is, the shorter will be his tenure.

Thus, "Mr. new coach", when constructing your staff it is imperative that every effort be made to ensure that your replacement is on the staff. And, the guys hired should be aware of that fact as well...and they should be payed accordingly.

We know that the market determines the new HC's salary...but, it seems reasonable that the assistants pay level and future oppotunities also impact the quality of assistants.

Whatever, UD simply must do a far better job of planning for and managing coaching changes....or we'll always be in a rebuilding mode. I think a case can be made that the most important benefit of being a part of the NBE may have been making the UD HC job a destination job.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[shocka43]

Michigan Pipeline?

Not sure that's the greatest Pipeline to hang onto.

We see how well that worked out for us in the last decade.

[UDDoug]

If every time you have to change coaches it takes 4 or 5 years you will never attain the stated goals.

And if every time the change is as bad as the BG to AM transition, you never will because that guarantees a 4 to 5 year rebuild period.

That doesn't change the fact that that is the cards AM was dealt, and it is a 4 to 5 year rebuild. You weren't going to hire anyone who would put this program where anyone wants it in a couple years with the cards dealt. Experienced or not.

The key to sustaining success is you can't have that kind of transition each time. And preferably the next coach is already on the staff.

The OP to Gregory transition was handled better, but OP left the classes extremely unbalanced and had had 3 very bad recruiting classes. That would kill you with or without a coaching change.

Different reasons, but essentially each of the last two transitions came with the loss of three recruiting classes.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[Medford]

Originally Posted by UDDoug The key to sustaining success is you can't have that kind of transition each time. And preferably the next coach is already on the staff.

I think this is the biggest thing UD has lacked in the last two transitions. When Purnel left, Jirsa was on staff, but obviously there were questions on his ability to take over the program. I guess those questions were proven correct base upon his struggles at Marshall (and Georgia prior).

When BG left, there was clearly no one on the staff that anyone considered a head coaching canidate.

correct me if I'm wrong, but Mark Few was on staff at Gonzaga when that job opened.

Butler has regularly hired from w/n ever since Barry Collier left, I know Thad went to school there, I assume he was on staff, I'm pretty sure Stevens was on staff there as well as Todd Likelighter (sp?)

Xavier has regularly hired from w/n with the exception being Matta. Prosser was gone for 1 season as the head coach somewhere, but he was on Gillen's staff prior to that. Sean was on Thad's staff when Matta went to OSU, Mack was on Miller's staff.

So the question is, why hasn't UD been able to hire from w/n? Is it problems w/ the prior coaching staff's assistant philosophy? Are they not paying assistant coaches enough to make legitimate head coaching canditates look at UD as stop along the coaching ladder?

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Angry John]

I think Archie hurts himself from not having a former head coach on his bench. I noticed Mike Deane was on James Madison's bench.

[UDDoug]

Few was on Monson's staff. Butler hasn't gone outside since Collier (not even sure that he wasn't on staff already). Xavier's only foray's outside the ranks were Matta and Prosser - and as noted Prosser wasn't really outside the ranks.

I think the experienced and seasoned bench coach issues are over-rated, and the result of everyone looking at something that isn't working and picking things that are different just because they are different. Others will disagree, but I don't think the difference between LaSalle and Dayton (to pick two opposite extremes in games decided late) this year are decisions made from the bench during the game. It is player's making plays. Giannini and Garland said as much post game - the ending shot was entirely drawn up on the fly by Garland and Galloway, each recognizing that the lane was going to be open and Garland would be better going right so they flipped sides.

I think coaches make more difference before the game tips. Preparation, scouting, game plan, getting players to recognize situations. Dayton did not have that, LaSalle did. And because the ball bounces different from year to year, a backslide by LaSalle next year would not surprise me. They aren't likely to go 8-0 in last minute games again.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[shocka43]

I am not stating that AM couldn't have logistically done some things better this season, but BG sure as hell could of as well, from year 1 to the end.

AM had 6 spots free up on an otherwise fully occupied roster. It is frustrating to see how many still don't realize that coaches who aren't named Smith, Knight, Williams, etc...don't just walk into a gym and get a blue chipper prior to establishing a relationship.

Why would AM keep Mann around? What input did he offer BG in his ways to lead UD to success? If Mann's relative wisdom on the bench was that great and his mind was the key to BG's defense...well that doesn't say much about BG...other than D and rebounding, there wasn't much desirable from an X's and O's standpoint.

With this said, the decision to hire AM and for him to hire his own guys, is more than placing the blame game on AM. If I were in that position, I want to start fresh, with guys I feel like I can trust. Had BG had guys on his staff that were proven winners and part of something special here, like a Sweet 16 run, Final 4, etc..., then I would say that person obviously had something to offer. But, had we also made those runs, they wouldn't have had a coaching change and if they did, that staff would have been gone with BG. This is bigger than BG and bigger than the decision that AM made. This is an institutional issue that needs to be dealt with at the top. The philosophy starts at the top. Not with the worker bees.

The program needs to change it's ways, because as others have mentioned, if we give a green light for guys for 4-5 years after every coaching change...we foster an environment where only 3 of 8 years we can say we are working with a known quantity.

The model has worked for X. Promote from within. This isn't up to the coach, but rather the coach's bosses. The coach should be worried about himself and building a winning team. The AD's office determines the future of the program and the sustainability. Not the coaching staff. Throw coach speak out the window, if anyone thinks OP or BG can't sleep at night because of the mediocre basketball being played at Dayton, they are kidding themselves. They may talk a game about certain successes and will follow the program, but we aren't a big concern of theirs. Those that work at UD and span generational gaps in staff are responsible for continual progress.

[cj]

You only promote from within if you have a winning team and a winning culture. There is no way you would promote from within if the program is losing.

[JimBo]

Originally Posted by Angry John I think Archie hurts himself from not having a former head coach on his bench. I noticed Mike Deane was on James Madison's bench.

Mike Deane is on James Madison's bench because he's a mediocre head coach and nobody wants him.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by JimBo Mike Deane is on James Madison's bench because he's a mediocre head coach and nobody wants him.

Is he still wearing those stupid sunglasses?