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03-26-2017, 10:28 AM
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Message to New BB Coach.....
Look, I get it..Archie dropped us for a hottie with cash. Who wouildn't? I guess....but between me and the rest of you Faithful, I'm pretty sick of being a stepping stone for aspiring coaches to make their rep before bedding down with the hottie of their dreams. Can't argue with the success AM brought to the progam...at all. But, I'm still hungry...maybe more so since he helped to get us off the kid's table at Thanksgiving dinner.
I get it...and I know it's akin to raging at the night as it were.....but it pi$$e$ me off....and makes me wonder that if top-tier coaching talent knows the upside is limited at UD, then maybe everyone else has to think the same?....recruits?...we the faithful?
Geez, this blows....
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03-26-2017, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by UDBaby
Look, I get it..Archie dropped us for a hottie with cash. Who wouildn't? I guess....but between me and the rest of you Faithful, I'm pretty sick of being a stepping stone for aspiring coaches to make their rep before bedding down with the hottie of their dreams. Can't argue with the success AM brought to the progam...at all. But, I'm still hungry...maybe more so since he helped to get us off the kid's table at Thanksgiving dinner.
I get it...and I know it's akin to raging at the night as it were.....but it pi$$e$ me off....and makes me wonder that if top-tier coaching talent knows the upside is limited at UD, then maybe everyone else has to think the same?....recruits?...we the faithful?
Geez, this blows....
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It's only considered "limited" because of perception. Mark Few and Gonzaga is just one example as to why it's a false perception. Does he get the very top recruits year in and year out? Not even close, yet here he is in the Final Four with a program that is a consistent NCAA tourney player.
I really felt Archie had UD headed in that direction, but he fell victim to the same ole song and dance, and chased after the money and perception that he'll have an easier time of it somewhere else. And while doing so, setting back the program he built the past 5 seasons, for who knows how many years.
Sorry if I'm not being so understanding and grateful for what he accomplished here, but as someone else mentioned, I was a fool for believing he wanted to do big things at UD. In the end, he was no different than the rest of them. For the majority of these coaches, winning a national championship is more a personal goal rather than a program or team goal. Not exactly an example of the #TrueTeam mentality Archie so pushed as the Flyer HC. I really hope the powers that be at UD can find a Mark Few for this program, it so deserves one.
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03-26-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by UDBaby
I'm pretty sick of being a stepping stone for aspiring coaches to make their rep before bedding down with the hottie of their dreams.
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And most eventually getting dumped by that hottie.
I wish Archie well; however, I think he is in for a rude awakening. He will be on a short leash at IU. Those alums, fans and administrators have little tolerance for being 2nd best in basketball.
I can't blame him for nearly doubling his money (I believe that is what happened, anyway) and going to a power 5 basketball school. Overall, a pretty smart move as the winningest senior class is moving on.
I agree with you about being a stepping stone. We have done that with the last 3 coaches. Although you can argue that all 3 stayed for a decent amount of time. I am finally hoping we get someone that can be here for a little longer and set up more permanent roots. That might not be possible, though. Just ask VCU fans.
As long as we are in the A-10 (and I am not against the A-10), we might be in this same cycle/tenure as our last 3 head coaches.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out...
Go Flyers!
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03-26-2017, 11:11 AM
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We had one in Don Donoher, and ironically we fired him. Maybe there is a curse.
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03-26-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JimBo
It's only considered "limited" because of perception. Mark Few and Gonzaga is just one example as to why it's a false perception. Does he get the very top recruits year in and year out? Not even close, yet here he is in the Final Four with a program that is a consistent NCAA tourney player.
I really felt Archie had UD headed in that direction, but he fell victim to the same ole song and dance, and chased after the money and perception that he'll have an easier time of it somewhere else. And while doing so, setting back the program he built the past 5 seasons, for who knows how many years.
Sorry if I'm not being so understanding and grateful for what he accomplished here, but as someone else mentioned, I was a fool for believing he wanted to do big things at UD. In the end, he was no different than the rest of them. For the majority of these coaches, winning a national championship is more a personal goal rather than a program or team goal. Not exactly an example of the #TrueTeam mentality Archie so pushed as the Flyer HC. I really hope the powers that be at UD can find a Mark Few for this program, it so deserves one.
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Agree 100% JimBo...I'm guilty of guzzlin' the Kool-Aid too. Thought Archie was gonna stick around a little while longer to prove that he had the chops to take our storied program to it's well-deserved place among the D1 elite.
Hope they find a Few among the many who will be looking to land what is unquestionably one of the top coaching jobs in NCAA hoops.
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03-26-2017, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JimBo
It's only considered "limited" because of perception. Mark Few and Gonzaga is just one example as to why it's a false perception. Does he get the very top recruits year in and year out? Not even close, yet here he is in the Final Four with a program that is a consistent NCAA tourney player.
I really felt Archie had UD headed in that direction, but he fell victim to the same ole song and dance, and chased after the money and perception that he'll have an easier time of it somewhere else. And while doing so, setting back the program he built the past 5 seasons, for who knows how many years.
Sorry if I'm not being so understanding and grateful for what he accomplished here, but as someone else mentioned, I was a fool for believing he wanted to do big things at UD. In the end, he was no different than the rest of them. For the majority of these coaches, winning a national championship is more a personal goal rather than a program or team goal. Not exactly an example of the #TrueTeam mentality Archie so pushed as the Flyer HC. I really hope the powers that be at UD can find a Mark Few for this program, it so deserves one.
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Few has gotten a couple of McDonald's All Americans over the last couple of years so he's certainly in the conversation for top recruiting classes. Archie may have been able to do similar but unlikely because of the region where the recruiting takes place.
And for all those that were taken as a fool, you had your warning from many on this board that ALL coaches say that stuff but leave when a perceived better opportunity comes along.
Would anyone have felt better if when Archie were hired he said something like "I'm grateful to the university for hiring me for this stepping stone job. I'm going to parlay this into a big time job, hopefully sooner than later. I'll do my best to keep the cupboard full when I leave but there is no promise and most of the incoming recruits will probably leave as well. But again I can't thank the university enough for this great opportunity to prove myself so I can get a P5 job soon. Hopefully the fans will support me for the 4 to 6 years that I'll be here."???
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03-26-2017, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JimBo
It's only considered "limited" because of perception. Mark Few and Gonzaga is just one example as to why it's a false perception. Does he get the very top recruits year in and year out? Not even close, yet here he is in the Final Four with a program that is a consistent NCAA tourney player.
I really felt Archie had UD headed in that direction, but he fell victim to the same ole song and dance, and chased after the money and perception that he'll have an easier time of it somewhere else. And while doing so, setting back the program he built the past 5 seasons, for who knows how many years.
Sorry if I'm not being so understanding and grateful for what he accomplished here, but as someone else mentioned, I was a fool for believing he wanted to do big things at UD. In the end, he was no different than the rest of them. For the majority of these coaches, winning a national championship is more a personal goal rather than a program or team goal. Not exactly an example of the #TrueTeam mentality Archie so pushed as the Flyer HC. I really hope the powers that be at UD can find a Mark Few for this program, it so deserves one.
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While a very good program,Gonzaga lives off of transfers. They have 4 on their roster now.Had a tremendous one from UK a couple years ago that put them on the map again. I believe the common theme here is that the transfers they get believe they can be one ones that take them over the top.
Can you imagine UD with Big Steve, a healthy Cunningham, and maybe even another big-time transfer not named Cooke on this team? UD could very well be playing next weekend. I am not dissing them but Few just a great job not having to rely the following year after a top-heavy senior class leaves. Again, we are talking multiple transfers most every couple years.
Last edited by steve; 03-26-2017 at 11:48 AM..
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03-26-2017, 12:16 PM
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He didn't chase money. The money was there according to UD admin and AM's dad from published articles. He chased the opportunity for a title. Something that is much easier to do at a P5 than an A10 school.
UD has **** near every resource that the big boys have. Many resources that the average fan probably has no clue about. Every conceivable resource that a coach needs, UD gives it to their head basketball coach. The only thing that changes is the Jimmy's and Joe's.
The issue is convincing the players to come to UD that are also looking at MSU, tOSU, NC, UK, etc....top tier players that want the fame aren't coming to Dayton, Ohio. It is the reality of the situation. Yes, Dayton commits have had other big schools on their radar and some of those schools were willing to make offers. But it isn't the norm. I don't care what Rivals and Scout has to say. P5 recruits that come to Dayton are coming to Dayton because of a handful of things and typically these guys aren't 4 year starters at your schools fighting for titles every year. ChrisR demonstrates these points very well in posts every single year, and he is right.
Son, you have the opportunity to start for UK or UNC. Who do you pick? Dayton. It isn't going to happen. So yes, the opportunity for AM to get high level recruits that don't have holes in their game or baggage, just got that much easier at IU than it was at Dayton.
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03-26-2017, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by steve
While a very good program,Gonzaga lives off of transfers. They have 4 on their roster now.Had a tremendous one from UK a couple years ago that put them on the map again.
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Same type of player that I mention above. Went to UK because of the "fame" and the kids involvement with playing time and being "the man" didn't pan out as expected. Goes to a west coast power. Kid would have had a better chance at achieving his playing time and fame goals at a MM out of the gate.
The same type of players that SLU had sitting on the end of their bench all season. Players that were non-P5 talent to begin with that ended up where they should have started.
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03-26-2017, 12:37 PM
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IU fans seem to be 50-50 on this with equal numbers saying great hire, Fire Glass, and let's give Archie a chance. He will not get the support he had at UD.
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03-26-2017, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
He didn't chase money. The money was there according to UD admin and AM's dad from published articles. He chased the opportunity for a title. Something that is much easier to do at a P5 than an A10 school.
Son, you have the opportunity to start for UK or UNC. Who do you pick? Dayton. It isn't going to happen. So yes, the opportunity for AM to get high level recruits that don't have holes in their game or baggage, just got that much easier at IU than it was at Dayton.
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This.
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03-26-2017, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan
This.
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Right....I get it....Like I said, it's like raging against the night.
But, reality or not, we don't have to like it. Wonder if its better to be a Sienna, or Iona or some such program that wishes only to be competitive in their respective league and hope to get asked to the Dance every now and then.
Or to be a UD, with its constant tease of thinking we're much prettier than we really are?
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03-26-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer
Would anyone have felt better if when Archie were hired he said something like "I'm grateful to the university for hiring me for this stepping stone job. I'm going to parlay this into a big time job, hopefully sooner than later. I'll do my best to keep the cupboard full when I leave but there is no promise and most of the incoming recruits will probably leave as well. But again I can't thank the university enough for this great opportunity to prove myself so I can get a P5 job soon. Hopefully the fans will support me for the 4 to 6 years that I'll be here."???
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I would have a lot more respect for him because it's the truth. College basketball is a lot less entertaining because loyalty is no longer a virtue. Players and coaches both leave in large numbers after every season, most of the time after just recently telling their fan base how much they love being there and have never considered going anywhere else. Contract extensions mean absolute nothing. I doubt I will ever have a certain level of trust with anymore UD coaches from here on out. We all know why they are really here.
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03-26-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
The issue is convincing the players to come to UD that are also looking at MSU, tOSU, NC, UK, etc....top tier players that want the fame aren't coming to Dayton, Ohio. It is the reality of the situation.
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Xavier has done it. It wasn't all that long ago they were in the MCC with UD. They overcame the same obstacles as UD and now many act as if Mack has a destination job there. Why can they do it and not UD?
I'm hearing a lot of excuses as to whey we can't. As long as that mentality exists, then it never will happen.
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03-26-2017, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by UDBaby
Look, I get it..Archie dropped us for a hottie with cash. Who wouildn't? I guess....but between me and the rest of you Faithful, I'm pretty sick of being a stepping stone for aspiring coaches to make their rep before bedding down with the hottie of their dreams.
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Whoa. This hurts, I get it. But let's get back to reality. Yeah, I was a little upset when OP left, but got over it within a day or two. Was elated(I realize some weren't) when BG took the GT job.
So this is the 3rd coach to leave us for P5 school. But let's be real, this is the first time it hurts.
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03-26-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JimBo
I'm hearing a lot of excuses as to whey we can't. As long as that mentality exists, then it never will happen.
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It's the Dayton Downer mentality. Just picture Eeyore with a Dayton hat on...
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03-26-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JimBo
Xavier has done it. It wasn't all that long ago they were in the MCC with UD. They overcame the same obstacles as UD and now many act as if Mack has a destination job there. Why can they do it and not UD?
I'm hearing a lot of excuses as to whey we can't. As long as that mentality exists, then it never will happen.
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Cincinnati vs. Dayton for a 18-22 year old...I'll wait. Have you been to the Banks, Newport, or Mt. Adams lately? Or just the Oregon District and Brown St. It's much easier to recruit a kid with the amenities and scenery of a large city than Dayton. Don't believe me...go on a recruiting visit and take the basketball part out of it....add the rest...the rest is why it is hard to recruit against teams in the P5 or large cities.
No one is saying they can't...UD can and should. But some want Final 4's, E8's, and S16 hell or high water, year in and year out. It isn't realistic. When a coach comes to UD and says he "wants to compete for a national championship every year"...he will be looked at as someone that has goals, but very unrealistic. That isn't too hard to comprehend.
The same people clamoring about fans "settling" for 6 successful years are the same ones b!tching about losing Archie. If you can't see the big picture of why things are the way they are, at a non-P5 school, then I don't know what to tell you. Other non-P5 schools have had good runs. They are outliers, just as we are.
It is easier in Dayton to meet the expectations of admin and fans than at a P5 school. However, it is harder to reach the lofty goals of a head coach that wants to compete for national titles. How hard is that to understand? Apparently if you do understand that, you have low expectations.
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03-26-2017, 03:10 PM
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I have to disagree slightly. I do agree that city amenities are important, however, look at the neighborhoods where UC and X are located. They have been in areas that had a lot of racial and police tensions.
I can name lots of cities that might be as unappealing as Dayton. It is factor, but one that can be managed. Your love from UD arena crowds can help overcome that.
I believe the reputation of the head coach, the TV exposure, the NCAA appearances all matter much more. UD was very slow in the 90s to address those issues caught lightning in a bottle when Archie too the team to the elite 8.
I can name a lot of players that UD pursued and changed their mind late to go elsewhere.
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03-26-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2
IU fans seem to be 50-50 on this with equal numbers saying great hire, Fire Glass, and let's give Archie a chance. He will not get the support he had at UD.
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I just glanced at a couple IU boards, and surprisingly 75% of the posts were like, "This shows we're not a premier program anymore. We have to settle for an unproven coach."
LOL. Archie is already on the hot seat...
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03-26-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer
I just glanced at a couple IU boards, and surprisingly 75% of the posts were like, "This shows we're not a premier program anymore. We have to settle for an unproven coach."
LOL. Archie is already on the hot seat...
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Maybe he will change his mind 15 minutes before Mondays press conference
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03-26-2017, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer
I just glanced at a couple IU boards, and surprisingly 75% of the posts were like, "This shows we're not a premier program anymore. We have to settle for an unproven coach."
LOL. Archie is already on the hot seat...
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I think they are just mad that Ray Harper turned them down
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03-26-2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
I think they are just mad that Ray Harper turned them down
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LOLZ.... Ray Harper is quickly becoming my favorite coach on any level, any sport.
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03-26-2017, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Cincinnati vs. Dayton for a 18-22 year old...I'll wait. Have you been to the Banks, Newport, or Mt. Adams lately? Or just the Oregon District and Brown St. It's much easier to recruit a kid with the amenities and scenery of a large city than Dayton. Don't believe me...go on a recruiting visit and take the basketball part out of it....add the rest...the rest is why it is hard to recruit against teams in the P5 or large cities.
No one is saying they can't...UD can and should. But some want Final 4's, E8's, and S16 hell or high water, year in and year out. It isn't realistic. When a coach comes to UD and says he "wants to compete for a national championship every year"...he will be looked at as someone that has goals, but very unrealistic. That isn't too hard to comprehend.
The same people clamoring about fans "settling" for 6 successful years are the same ones b!tching about losing Archie. If you can't see the big picture of why things are the way they are, at a non-P5 school, then I don't know what to tell you. Other non-P5 schools have had good runs. They are outliers, just as we are.
It is easier in Dayton to meet the expectations of admin and fans than at a P5 school. However, it is harder to reach the lofty goals of a head coach that wants to compete for national titles. How hard is that to understand? Apparently if you do understand that, you have low expectations.
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Xavier, Wichita State, Gonzaga and Butler are all outliers? That's a lot of outliers. Even Creighton has four NCAA tourney appearances over the last six years (and won games in three of those years). So what Archie did was not miraculous - and it should not be viewed as such.
I don't think anyone here is saying we should be an Elite 8 team every year, or expect to make the NCAA 10+ years in a row. But we should not settle for one Sweet 16 every 30 years either. Of three or four years in a row without an NCAA win (where we might be headed based on the hole in recruiting Archie left us).
So now the problem is Dayton does not have the big city lights? C'mon - another excuse. A lot of P5 campuses are corn fields without the university and they have no trouble recruiting. If the city lights were such a draw, why do St. John's, Fordham, DePaul, all suck? UD blows away DePaul and Fordham as far as basketball amenities.
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03-26-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Cincinnati vs. Dayton for a 18-22 year old...I'll wait. Have you been to the Banks, Newport, or Mt. Adams lately? Or just the Oregon District and Brown St. It's much easier to recruit a kid with the amenities and scenery of a large city than Dayton. Don't believe me...go on a recruiting visit and take the basketball part out of it....add the rest...the rest is why it is hard to recruit against teams in the P5 or large cities.
No one is saying they can't...UD can and should. But some want Final 4's, E8's, and S16 hell or high water, year in and year out. It isn't realistic. When a coach comes to UD and says he "wants to compete for a national championship every year"...he will be looked at as someone that has goals, but very unrealistic. That isn't too hard to comprehend.
The same people clamoring about fans "settling" for 6 successful years are the same ones b!tching about losing Archie. If you can't see the big picture of why things are the way they are, at a non-P5 school, then I don't know what to tell you. Other non-P5 schools have had good runs. They are outliers, just as we are.
It is easier in Dayton to meet the expectations of admin and fans than at a P5 school. However, it is harder to reach the lofty goals of a head coach that wants to compete for national titles. How hard is that to understand? Apparently if you do understand that, you have low expectations.
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Lexington, Lawrence, Raleigh, Morgantown, East Lansing, Bloomington, Champaign, State College, Ann Arbor, Columbia, Gainesville, College Station, Norman, Stillwater, Fayetteville, Tuscaloosa, Syracuse, South Bend, ??????????
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03-26-2017, 03:28 PM
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[QUOTE=312to937;499378] Xavier, Wichita State, Gonzaga and Butler are all outliers? That's a lot of outliers. Even Creighton has four NCAA tourney appearances over the last six years (and won games in three of those years). So what Archie did was not miraculous - and it should not be viewed as such.
I don't think anyone here is saying we should be an Elite 8 team every year, or expect to make the NCAA 10+ years in a row. But we should not settle for one Sweet 16 every 30 years either. Of three or four years in a row without an NCAA win (where we might be headed based on the hole in recruiting Archie left us).
So now the problem is Dayton does not have the big city lights? C'mon - another excuse. A lot of P5 campuses are corn fields without the university and they have no trouble recruiting. If the city lights were such a draw, why do St. John's, Fordham, DePaul, all suck? UD blows away DePaul and Fordham as far as basketball amenities.[/QUO
So if we don't win a NCAA game in four years do we pull an Indiana and fire the coach. Ditto on sweet 16's? That'll show em.
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03-26-2017, 03:46 PM
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I am definitely in the minority of this board it appears, but I think I'm ok with being the stepping-stone job. That's essentially what the Xavier job was starting with the Skip Prosser years through the formation of the New Big East. Prosser, Matta, and Miller were there for 7, 3, and 5 years respectively and left for P5 jobs. I also don't think it's ridiculous to suggest Chris Mack might have a P5 job right now had X not hit the jackpot in conference realignment.
Point is, even if Archie viewed UD as the stepping stone from the beginning, I don't really care, because regardless of his motivation we ended up with the best 4-year run in a very long time. If another coach with similar motivation can produce similar results, I'm totally ok with that.
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03-26-2017, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SHQCKEY
I am definitely in the minority of this board it appears, but I think I'm ok with being the stepping-stone job. That's essentially what the Xavier job was starting with the Skip Prosser years through the formation of the New Big East. Prosser, Matta, and Miller were there for 7, 3, and 5 years respectively and left for P5 jobs. I also don't think it's ridiculous to suggest Chris Mack might have a P5 job right now had X not hit the jackpot in conference realignment.
Point is, even if Archie viewed UD as the stepping stone from the beginning, I don't really care, because regardless of his motivation we ended up with the best 4-year run in a very long time. If another coach with similar motivation can produce similar results, I'm totally ok with that.
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I'm with you but let's remember, it's been easier on Xavier because they hire from within which in turn keeps them from losing a year of recruits and others and having to take a couple years to rebuild. Yes, I don't care if our coaches leave for greener pastures, I just want continuity by having assistants move up, like Xavier.
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03-26-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
I'm with you but let's remember, it's been easier on Xavier because they hire from within which in turn keeps them from losing a year of recruits and others and having to take a couple years to rebuild. Yes, I don't care if our coaches leave for greener pastures, I just want continuity by having assistants move up, like Xavier.
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Agreed, which is why the current assistants are at least worth a look in my opinion.
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03-26-2017, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62
So if we don't win a NCAA game in four years do we pull an Indiana and fire the coach. Ditto on sweet 16's? That'll show em.
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Xavier, Butler and Gonzaga are schools that show it can be done. Since the March 2000 tourney, I believe X and Gonzaga have never gone more than two years without an NCAA tourney win. I think Butler went three years without a win at one point.
But go ahead, set the bar lower than your competition. I guess you'll feel better about your accomplishments.
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03-26-2017, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SHQCKEY
Agreed, which is why the current assistants are at least worth a look in my opinion.
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Include me in that camp. And then, regardless of whether or not our next HC comes from the ranks of last season's assistants, establish that kind of succession planning as a goal for this program.
As much as I detest how Xavier is conspiring to keep us out of the Big East, I admire them for developing a winning game plan for achieving sustained success. The model works. Copy the model.
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03-26-2017, 04:28 PM
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xavier fans were a little unhappy two years ago that mack would probably be around forever, they probably feel better about it now.
The problem with the ud assistants is that they still don't have ties to the program that a previous player does. There is no reason to think that they won't leave the same way
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03-26-2017, 05:08 PM
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I'm in the don't mind if we get a stepping stone coach camp (which means he was successful at UD), as long as we can be like X and hire within the system that the stepping stone coach instilled and provide some sort of consistency. I hope that happened on Archies watch. You have some rebuilding but nothing like you would have with a brand new coach and system.
I've heard some people say only mid major hire assistant coaches, well thats because coaches only leave big time programs if they retire or if they were fired. It has to be pretty rare to hire an assistant of a coach you just fired.
I would love it if we could get a GREAT coach, that loved UD as much as we all do, and wants to retire here, but I think that's a long shot in the modern world of college basketball.
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03-26-2017, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 312to937
Xavier, Wichita State, Gonzaga and Butler are all outliers? .
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Yes...they are...they are the only teams that aren't considered the Duke/UK/UNCs of college basketball that have had long runs of success. Every last one of them.
You keep going back to the last 30 years. I don't give a rats ass about the last 30 years. I care about what this program has done since the AM era...because that is the only era since the 60's where UD has actually been relevant on a consistent basis.
Am I happy with the last 6 years? Yes. Do I want them to continue to build on what they have and be consistent like the other 4 teams you mention out of 300 some DI teams? Yes.
If it isn't the City of Dayton...and it isn't UD....then why does a guy like Archie feel like he can't be where he wants to be to win championships?
I'll let you pull the answers since you seem to have all of them. And remember, Archie didn't leave because of compensation. He left because he wants banners. If he can't get banners at UD, why? Your turn.
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03-26-2017, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 312to937
Xavier, Wichita State, Gonzaga and Butler are all outliers? That's a lot of outliers.
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When you are talking about four teams in a sea of hundreds...it's not that many teams. Also - two of them have had coaches leave for higher profile jobs.
So when we talk about trying to be an elite program with an elite coach that will stay here forever, there are really only two places that has happened. We can still aspire to it, but let's not pretend that we are entitled to it.
I'm as upset as the next person - but to anyone who really is mad at Archie...I would love to see a copy of your resume or a link to your LinkedIn page to show the rest of us that you have never changed jobs.
I'll wait.
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03-26-2017, 08:04 PM
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My message to the new coach - WIN!!!
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03-26-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats
When you are talking about four teams in a sea of hundreds...it's not that many teams. Also - two of them have had coaches leave for higher profile jobs.
So when we talk about trying to be an elite program with an elite coach that will stay here forever, there are really only two places that has happened. We can still aspire to it, but let's not pretend that we are entitled to it.
I'm as upset as the next person - but to anyone who really is mad at Archie...I would love to see a copy of your resume or a link to your LinkedIn page to show the rest of us that you have never changed jobs.
I'll wait.
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When did I ever say you need a coach to stay forever to be a program with recurring success? Xavier and Butler (and, to a lesser extent, Creighton) are examples of programs that have had success under more than one coach.
Also, I posted back in January that I thought Archie would leave after this season. I never expected he would stay at Dayton. So I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to feeling UD is entitled to keep Archie forever???
Now, I'll wait for you to tell me why Dayton can't have the same type of long term success Xavier and Butler have had?
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03-26-2017, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 312to937
When did I ever say you need a coach to stay forever to be a program with recurring success? Xavier and Butler (and, to a lesser extent, Creighton) are examples of programs that have had success under more than one coach.
Also, I posted back in January that I thought Archie would leave after this season. I never expected he would stay at Dayton. So I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to feeling UD is entitled to keep Archie forever???
Now, I'll wait for you to tell me why Dayton can't have the same type of long term success Xavier and Butler have had?
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We definitely can have that kind of success - just not sure why we feel entitled to it. We have to earn it. We have taken steps in that direction, but there is a lot of work to do to get to that level.
Some of my other comments were for a broader audience that is in full on "Archie Hate" mode. I probably could have put that in a separate post. People act like he has committed a crime against the entire city by choosing to leave.
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03-26-2017, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats
We definitely can have that kind of success - just not sure why we feel entitled to it. We have to earn it. We have taken steps in that direction, but there is a lot of work to do to get to that level.
Some of my other comments were for a broader audience that is in full on "Archie Hate" mode. I probably could have put that in a separate post. People act like he has committed a crime against the entire city by choosing to leave.
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Fair enough. Agree - more work to do - especially now.
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03-26-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 312to937
When did I ever say you need a coach to stay forever to be a program with recurring success? Xavier and Butler (and, to a lesser extent, Creighton) are examples of programs that have had success under more than one coach.
Also, I posted back in January that I thought Archie would leave after this season. I never expected he would stay at Dayton. So I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to feeling UD is entitled to keep Archie forever???
Now, I'll wait for you to tell me why Dayton can't have the same type of long term success Xavier and Butler have had?
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They can. UD is in the first 6 years of that process that the teams you mentioned have had decade to decade and a half runs of success. Sure, UD can do it. But you sound like one of these millennials that demands it now or else. If the next coach doesn't continue the trend we are on, then you can question the why and why not us. Until then, you are whining over nothing regarding why UD can't do something. UD can...they have major hurdles that P5 schools don't have...that is precisely why Archie left. Not money. Not overall winning percentage. Not the facilities. Not the support from fans and the U. Not equipment. Not resources. One thing, and one thing only...the ability to consistently compete for championships at the national level.
UD hasn't had success across coaches because of many things. JOB? Really? You want to go there. Purnell got us out of those years. BG leveled things out but never went upward. And now we just ended the AM era which was successful.
If the next coach doesn't continue to trend upward, then you can talk about what UD has or hasn't done to try and get to the schools you mention. You have a different brand of leadership at UD now that fully understands what it takes to get to that level. Much more than the leadership that took us into the dark ages of the JOB years that eventually led to having to take forever to get where we are now.
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03-26-2017, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan
I have to disagree slightly. I do agree that city amenities are important, however, look at the neighborhoods where UC and X are located. They have been in areas that had a lot of racial and police tensions.
I can name lots of cities that might be as unappealing as Dayton. It is factor, but one that can be managed. Your love from UD arena crowds can help overcome that.
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Concur.
<coach showing Iowa recruit around the area>
"Over here we have some corn, and over here we have some more corn..."
<coach showing Syracuse recruit around the area>
"Over here we have a snow drift from last week, and over here we have a snow drift from last winter..."
<coach showing Okie State recruit around the area>
"Over here we have some cows, and over here we have a whole lot of cows..."
<coach showing Kansas recruit around the area>
"Over here we have flat, and over there we have more flat, and waaaay over there is some more flat..."
<coach showing Oregon recruit around the area>
"Over here we have a moose, and over there we have some fish, and over there we have a bunch of women who don't shave their armpits..."
Be thankful, Dayton doesn't have any of these hurdles to overcome.
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03-26-2017, 10:13 PM
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Unless you are UK, North Carolina, or Duke you are at-risk of having your coach taken from you by another program.
X always had successful coaches who were at-risk of leaving. Now that X is in the Big East, the number of programs who are viewed as clearly better than Xavier is probably less than 20. The big difference with Mack...he is from Cincinnati and played at Xavier. This is home. So in his mind the number of programs viewed as clearly better than Xavier is probably less than 10.
Can UD find a former player (or anyone from Ohio) who views the Flyers as a destination program...for at least the next 4-5 years?
As an aside, I hate that athletic directors/presidents glorify extending these successful coaches to long-term contracts but include no ramifications for abandoning the players/recruits.
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03-26-2017, 10:44 PM
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IU hasn't been a real title contender in twenty years...see Robert Knight. If Ryan Miller only left to pursue a national title, then he miscalculated...see brother Sean/Arizona. Archie might as well have waited for about 50 other jobs to come open; or just kept getting closer to the title at Dayton.
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03-26-2017, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats
We definitely can have that kind of success - just not sure why we feel entitled to it. We have to earn it. We have taken steps in that direction, but there is a lot of work to do to get to that level.
Some of my other comments were for a broader audience that is in full on "Archie Hate" mode. I probably could have put that in a separate post. People act like he has committed a crime against the entire city by choosing to leave.
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Agree 100 percent. Can I add that if you expect a coach to stay long enough to get us a championship, do you advocate making that a non-negotiable part of their contract? Because if you do, we might get this Ray Harper guy. But you won't get anyone with the coaching ability of AM, they are smart, too smart to sign a contract like that. And if you think that putting that in a contract might keep a coach away, why is that? Because they might want to move up the ladder before that occurs?
Folks, you people are bitter, I understand that, but don't post until you get over it. You want a championship at UD, so do I, but it takes many steps to get there that doesn't include having one of the great young coaches in the country dedicating his whole life to it, just a part of it.
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03-26-2017, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN
Unless you are UK, North Carolina, or Duke you are at-risk of having your coach taken from you by another program.
X always had successful coaches who were at-risk of leaving. Now that X is in the Big East, the number of programs who are viewed as clearly better than Xavier is probably less than 20. The big difference with Mack...he is from Cincinnati and played at Xavier. This is home. So in his mind the number of programs viewed as clearly better than Xavier is probably less than 10.
Can UD find someone from Ohio (or even a former player) who views the Flyers as a destination program...for at least the next 4-5 years?
As an aside, I hate that athletic directors/presidents glorify extending these successful coaches to long-term contracts but include no ramifications for abandoning the players/recruits.
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I read on CBSports.com that UD & G-Town are the two best jobs up for grabs right now. In that article, it noted G-Town is a top-30 job, while Dayton is a top-40 job. So long as we keep Dayton a top-40 job, I don't think we'll need to worry as much about the Iowas, Wake Forests, Alabamas, Okie States, and Cals of the college basketball world taking our coach.
http://www.cbssports.com/college-bas...l-flyers-hire/
Also, an interesting look at four major college basketball vacancies and how they were ranked. Interesting G-Town is #1, but hard to argue with the logic. Comments about Okie State are harsh, but valid.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/03/coll...homa-state-cal
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03-26-2017, 11:14 PM
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If Im the AD, I would talk to coaches in this manner:
You either want this Job, or you don't, this is what it pays; and there are lots of folks who like to have it. Forget about the 2mil, 3mil, 4 mil, bull; cap it, and tell them that's it, there are lots of qualified people who want it, take it or leave it.
Largely I am aiming that at current coaches, not necessarily incoming job candidates.
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03-26-2017, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach
IU hasn't been a real title contender in twenty years...see Robert Knight. If Ryan Miller only left to pursue a national title, then he miscalculated...see brother Sean/Arizona. Archie might as well have waited for about 50 other jobs to come open; or just kept getting closer to the title at Dayton.
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Well stated, Beatty Town Coach. The IU fans became spoiled when Robert Montgomery Knight was there. He got good recruits and developed them genuinely good teams, in some cases great teams. But you are right, their teams have never been the same since.
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03-27-2017, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick
I read on CBSports.com that UD & G-Town are the two best jobs up for grabs right now. In that article, it noted G-Town is a top-30 job, while Dayton is a top-40 job. So long as we keep Dayton a top-40 job, I don't think we'll need to worry as much about the Iowas, Wake Forests, Alabamas, Okie States, and Cals of the college basketball world taking our coach.
http://www.cbssports.com/college-bas...l-flyers-hire/
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I see that USF pursued Dambrot before BG. I guess Dambrot is no longer being blackballed, Duquesne is pursuing him too.
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03-27-2017, 04:00 AM
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You can't blame the guy for leaving. If you are a competitive person and you want to see where you really stack up in your field, then you keep reaching for the higher gig.
He can stay at Dayton and continue to lose recruits to the big schools and the better conferences. Then try to coach against those schools while being outmanned and mis-seeded in the tournament.
Or he can go to a true blue blood school. Get top tier 5 star kids, coach them up. Make the tourney every damm year, and see what kind of a coach he is on a level playing field with the best. That's the way it is. He//, if he comes in 7th place in the big ten he's going to make the tournament every year. And once you're in the dance, it's a crapshoot. You get a good seed (because you're a P5 school) and who knows. The odds are so stacked against a school like Dayton that it has to be utterly exhausting as a coach just to try to make the tourney. For these P5 schools, it's a birthright.
He's a competitive guy. And at somepoint when you're as talented as he is, you gotta wonder how great you could be without one hand tied behind your back (like trying to recruit to a non P5 school, making road trips to a high school gym in Olean and being stuck in some backwater conference). UD could give him a lot of things. But they couldn't give him a conference that wasn't an embarassment. Until that gets fixed, we will always be on the outside looking in. It's a real bummer, because i think Archie was a once in a lifetime quality of coach.
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03-27-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer'95
Get top tier 5 star kids, coach them up. Make the tourney every damm year, and see what kind of a coach he is on a level playing field with the best. That's the way it is. He//, if he comes in 7th place in the big ten he's going to make the tournament every year. And once you're in the dance, it's a crapshoot. You get a good seed (because you're a P5 school) and who knows. The odds are so stacked against a school like Dayton that it has to be utterly exhausting as a coach just to try to make the tourney. For these P5 schools, it's a birthright.
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If we were in the BE, is AM still our coach? Assume this:
We are not underseeded in the tourney
We have better recruits
We can pay him more
Not sure, but I know it would not hurt...
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03-27-2017, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan
If we were in the BE, is AM still our coach? Assume this:
We are not underseeded in the tourney
We have better recruits
We can pay him more
Not sure, but I know it would not hurt...
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I have no doubt that AM would be here if UD was in the BE......Better TV contract, far more exposure, being able to schedule better OOC games, playing in major recruiting markets, having players you're recruiting being able to come watch you play, etc.
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03-27-2017, 09:32 AM
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Archie left because his buzz was peaking at UD....he's a college hoops junkie and for a while UD and the A10 did the trick. Not anymore. He knows that the ultimate high lies elsewhere, so off he goes.
I get it. Don't blame him and appreciate all that he has done for the program - 1000%.
My concern is based on the reason why AM left - that top-tier recruits will always look at UD as the B list, and so for us to ever get over the top on a consistent basis is nearly impossible....especially without a AM type of coach on the bench all the time.
Basically the equation is....nice school, nice program but top coaching talent will leave and top recruits won't come?
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03-27-2017, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer'95
You can't blame the guy for leaving. If you are a competitive person and you want to see where you really stack up in your field, then you keep reaching for the higher gig.
He can stay at Dayton and continue to lose recruits to the big schools and the better conferences. Then try to coach against those schools while being outmanned and mis-seeded in the tournament.
Or he can go to a true blue blood school. Get top tier 5 star kids, coach them up. Make the tourney every damm year, and see what kind of a coach he is on a level playing field with the best. That's the way it is. He//, if he comes in 7th place in the big ten he's going to make the tournament every year. And once you're in the dance, it's a crapshoot. You get a good seed (because you're a P5 school) and who knows. The odds are so stacked against a school like Dayton that it has to be utterly exhausting as a coach just to try to make the tourney. For these P5 schools, it's a birthright.
He's a competitive guy. And at somepoint when you're as talented as he is, you gotta wonder how great you could be without one hand tied behind your back (like trying to recruit to a non P5 school, making road trips to a high school gym in Olean and being stuck in some backwater conference). UD could give him a lot of things. But they couldn't give him a conference that wasn't an embarassment. Until that gets fixed, we will always be on the outside looking in. It's a real bummer, because i think Archie was a once in a lifetime quality of coach.
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I don't buy that "losing recruits" line. Think about this...if we would have had our full cadre of recruits over the last few years, including Big Steve and a healthy Josh Cunningham, where would this team have been this year? Perhaps a top-15 team. Also, this group of anticipated recruits coming in this year, though requiring some transition, is as good a group as we have had in years. So, this recruiting "excuse" just doesn't hold water.
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03-27-2017, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer'95
You can't blame the guy for leaving. If you are a competitive person and you want to see where you really stack up in your field, then you keep reaching for the higher gig.
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Or, if you're such a competitive person and everyone says you can't accomplish certain things where you are, instead of accepting and believing it you set out to prove everyone wrong by staying and making them happen. He was on his way but chose to go somewhere where it's perceived to be easier.
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03-27-2017, 10:48 AM
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*Just kidding. I don't 100% trust anyone
99.9999% of us would have done exactly what Archie did so I fail to see any reason to over-react. UD will be fine.
Maybe next time we won't have that "In XXXXX I trust" belief. It only sets you up for disappointment.
Go Flyers!
In Neil I trust*...
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6 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to rollo For This Totally Excellent Post:
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03-27-2017, 10:59 AM
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Captain
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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Underseeded in the tourney? While you could make an argument for the A10 champion perennially being dissed, surely you don't mean this year Dayton should have been a 5 or 6 seed? Remember that we didn't even play in the A10 semifinals.
As for stepping stones, 6 seasons at one place is pretty darn good in this era. Wish no ill will on Archie. He has done and will continue to do great work.
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Mad Props to soccerflyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
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03-27-2017, 11:06 AM
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Major General
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Join Date: May 2014
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I keep coming back to this thread for my messages but I haven't seen any yet!
KK
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03-27-2017, 11:08 AM
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Major General
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Me too!
AG
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03-27-2017, 11:10 AM
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Brigadier General
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Originally Posted by TommyGola
I don't buy that "losing recruits" line. Think about this...if we would have had our full cadre of recruits over the last few years, including Big Steve and a healthy Josh Cunningham, where would this team have been this year? Perhaps a top-15 team. Also, this group of anticipated recruits coming in this year, though requiring some transition, is as good a group as we have had in years. So, this recruiting "excuse" just doesn't hold water.
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It took archie about 6 years to get the class we are supposed to have next year. At IU, he will top this class in his first year. And it won't be close. Even with this great class, he also had down years. The two prior years aren't nearly as big of a splash in terms of recruits as we had hoped. It is not easy to recruit a top talent to the 7th best conference. And if you think it is, you're kidding yourself.
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03-27-2017, 01:43 PM
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Lieutenant General
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Originally Posted by rollo
99.9999% of us would have done exactly what Archie did so I fail to see any reason to over-react. UD will be fine.
Maybe next time we won't have that "In XXXXX I trust" belief. It only sets you up for disappointment.
Go Flyers!
In Neil I trust*...
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I only trust Ray Harper!
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Mad Props to C-time For This Totally Excellent Post:
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03-27-2017, 01:46 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2001
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For now and forever more, 'Rudy the Wonderdog' shalt only respond to and be know as 'Ray Harper'. It's a well deserved name change!
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