Are We a Destination Job - A Steppin Stone Job or ...

[NJFlyr71]

So I looked at a few things concerning where UD lines up with some similar level teams or comparison to some desired teams to emulate.

To start with I went to Bleacher Report and used a May 2016 Top Mid-Major Non Power 5 Teams Ranking (yes I know I hate it too, buuut that is where I gathered some 'similar teams' to go by in this comparison).

The list of CBB teams (I used 5 outside UD).

In order of ranking:
1 Gonzaga
2 WSU
3 VCU
4 San Diego State
5 UD
6 St Mary's Gael's

Then for another comparison we all love to either hate or admire I threw in W_Yavior.

Once I had this list I went seeking each teams NCAA Tourney record/appearances. I used a cut-off starting from the 2000-01 season for all teams unless they did not appear until sometime later. Using that start date and going till this last season just ended there were 17 opportunities to reach the NCAAt.

I reported the number of appearances over those 17 years and the teams best finishes and number of times at that level of finish.

So here goes:

In Order as above

Gonzaga 17 out of 17 ! Best 1 NC game, 1 F4, 1 E8, 4xS16
WSU 7 out of 17 Best 1 F4, 2xS16
VCU 10 out of 17 Best F4
San Diego State 8 out of 17 Best 2xS16
I'll skip to
St Mary's 6 out of 17 Best S16

And the school south of Dayton. An impressive

15 out of 17 Best 3xE8, 4xS16


Now UD's 'record'

UD 8 out of 17 Best E8

Of course all teams had a 1st, 2nd or 3rd round game they achieved during their appearances when they did not achieve their 'best' finish.

So are we emulating any of these 'other teams'?

Which teams do we closely resemble in comparison (when looking at an NCAAt perspective)?

Who is the creme de la creme of this crop?

There are 351 D1 BB programs. How many of those HC's would want to move up to a UD job? How many would be willing to move laterally? How many would be willing to leave a P5 conference gig to be HC at UD?

What teams should we be realistically shooting for to achieve the same level or are we about in the right ballpark in comparison to that team or teams already?

[Sitdowndigger]

What does mid major mean? I cringe at that term. We don't have a football stadium right? We can beat 80% of p5 or big east teams...for now on rather call it amongst "basketball schools."
Posted via Mobile Device

[Sitdowndigger]

We are a destination job at a true basketball school.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

For a young 30 something year old, like Archie Miller or Brian Gregory, we are a stepping stone.

For a 51 year old who has been around, assistant coach in the final 4, head coach in this conference, tried to coach at a football power house school, got his feet wet in the NBA, we are a destination job.

At first I really wanted UD to hire from within, but the more I think about it, listen to AG speak, read others opinions (both good and bad), the more convinced I am this is AG's final job, until he retires in 15 to 20 years.

So to answer the original question, we are both, just depends upon which coach your talking about in the past, currently, or in the future.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[DallasFlyer]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 1 F4, 1 E8, 4xS16 1 F4, 2xS16 2xS16 3xE8, 4xS16 UD 8 out of 17 Best E8

I was never real good at chemistry. Formula seems complicated. Does it equal vodka?

Because I think as long as UD is lowder and drunker than everybody else, it's gonna be all good.

Compare yourself to no one. Tip your bartender.

[Sitdowndigger]

Originally Posted by DallasFlyer I was never real good at chemistry. Formula seems complicated. Does it equal vodka? Because I think as long as UD is lowder and drunker than everybody else, it's gonna be all good. Compare yourself to no one. Tip your bartender.

This.

Any recruit/coaching news yet? No disrespect to all other thread efforts
Posted via Mobile Device

[Smitty10]

It's mainly a stepping stone job. There are exceptions depending on a coach'es situation and how lofty your goals are, but mainly it's a stepping stone job. Sure, we might find another Don Donoher who's an alumni and want's to plant their roots here, but that's obviously the exception. I wouldn't say that it's a destination job for Anthony Grant. I think he never reached his personal destination job which would've been a long, successful P5 gig. So, yes, he's settling a little. And not always is a coach'es final job their "Destination job". For instance, Bobby Knights destination job was Indiana, but he had to settle on Texas Tech to carry him into retirement.

It also depends on your goals for the program. The higher the bar you set for a school with UD's status in the pecking order of things, it's a stepping stone. Set the bar lower and it's a destination job for the coach that's not hightly sought after.

Now, the situation can change. Gonzaga was not always a destination type of job but it certainly is now. So, set the bar higher, reach that bar, continue to raise it and reach it and you will become a destination job for a higher percentage of quality coaches. It's all relative. When comparing us to NC, we're a stepping stone, when comparing us to George Mason, we're a destination.

Using a formula based on past successes is too much of a moving target. AM giving us 4 NCAA appearances in 6 years obviously didn't make this a destination job for AM. Heck, DePaul is probably more of a destination job than UD yet they don't compare using your formula I believe.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[BeckysTXA]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan For a young 30 something year old, like Archie Miller or Brian Gregory, we are a stepping stone. For a 51 year old who has been around, assistant coach in the final 4, head coach in this conference, tried to coach at a football power house school, got his feet wet in the NBA, we are a destination job. At first I really wanted UD to hire from within, but the more I think about it, listen to AG speak, read others opinions (both good and bad), the more convinced I am this is AG's final job, until he retires in 15 to 20 years. So to answer the original question, we are both, just depends upon which coach your talking about in the past, currently, or in the future.

And if AG and trueteam and UD administration can continue to build on the AM era for the next 10-15 years, then they can put together a Gonzaga-like program that will be a destination job for any coach coming after AG. And somewhere along that timeline we should be invited into a new conference or lead the way into building a new one not on the board today.

	Brian Gregory BRIAN GREGORY UD Men's Basketball Head Coach since 2004. Groomed by the likes of Judd Heathcoate and Tom Izzo at Michigan State, as well as Kevin O'Neill and others, Gregory's defensive-minded leadership has led Dayton to NCAA and multiple NIT appearances. A good recruiter, BG has elevated the athleticism of the squad in recent years and kept top area talent at home. Still looking for that breakthrough season with his own players that catapult him to the NCAA tourney. Graduated from Oakland University.

[San Diego Flyer]

Think we are a really high step to a really nice stone. But Anthony is the first coach since Donoher to think he has reached the last one. Probably because he had a taste of p5 and hopes it is his last. This very well could be AG's last job even if he were to be wildly successful.

Steve Fisher likes the scenery and chose to make SDSU his own personal destination job. Same with Mark Few at Zag. But they really aren't destination jobs either. One where Coach K or Cal jumps on an opening and moves to Spokane :EEK:.

Depends on what you value and how much you crave to reach the "Peter Principle". Most coaches flame out before they get to that "destination" job they covet. Would we have wanted Oliver or BG to declare they are a Flyer Coach forever?

So I guess there are two breeds that really really want a job like Dayton and if they got it would be inclinded never to leave for other than health reasons----see Jabir. You flamed out trying so hard to reach a higher level that it affected your health. That makes a Dayton University look pretty darn good for as long as you can produce. Or maybe you are just happy, your family is happy, and you can tolerate $2 or $3 mil.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[SLUFLYER]

I take the approach as I do with my technology clients - it depends.

For Archie and BG, we were not destination jobs, obviously.

For someone like AG, we certainly could be. He's made the jump from small conference to P5. He's coached in the NBA. He played at Dayton. Point is, he may have some heartstrings re: this job. He's already climbed the ladder, or tried to, and at 51 now, we may have someone who could be a lifer regardless of the amount of success we hopefully achieve.

If you want to win a National Championship and have legitimate opportunity to get to the Final Four (Top 4 seed most years), then we are not a destination job for a coach that is primarily motivated by that. There are probably only 10-12 schools that can say they have the resources, history, pedigree and cache to lay claim to that expectation realistically. Those jobs don't open up all that frequently and when they do, quite often there is a presumed successor. With Archie, he could have and probably would have been here a lot longer if Indiana doesn't open and Matta sticks it out for a few more years.

So I can be swayed into believing that UD IS a destination job for over 95% of the coaches in D1 basketball. If that coach has that drive as outlined above and the success that comes with it, then he won't perceive UD as destination job. Fact is, you can compete for National Championships at those 10-12 schools and you cannot at Dayton, at least not today. Those schools are getting the 5 star recruits, Dayton is not.

We've proven to be able to keep a coach that is looking for P5 money, so the cash isn't a factor like it used to be.

[FLYER5]

The term destination is one that will get various placements on the totem pole (poll). Age and locale will sway a prospect toward a school that shouldn't be on the list.
You couldn't throw enough money at Steve Fisher to get him to leave SDSU because he's got both. He's both of older age plus he's got the best locale in America. So you have to throw fringe benefits out. Then it gets easier.

Money and proliference jump above all other criteria. Duke and UNC top the food chain of destination schools. Just below the bottom of the list is Ohio State. They make the money portion with gusto but they struggle to be prolific.
A coach at tOSU would jump to a true destination job given the two criteria stated. Let's throw the two pinnacle schools out of the equation because any and everybody would jump.
That leaves UK, Kansas, UCLA, UL, IU, Michigan, and whomever else I'm leaving out at the top. That's it. No other schools are true (you can't sway them) destination jobs.
Welcome to the top of the food chain. All others have varying degrees of warts inhibiting their placement on the list.
Gonzaga is not a destination job. Mark Few is treating it, so far, like one. What happens when Calipari, Beilein, and Pitino retire and one or more of their AD's contact Few? Maybe nothing, but he would have to jump to Duke or UNC? Just put them back into the mix to illustrate how far the rest are away, sans UK maybe, because they are the solid #3.
Destination is a pretty exclusive term and therefore so should be the teams that qualify. Jmo

[NorthwestFlyer]

Originally Posted by Sitdowndigger Any recruit/coaching news yet? No disrespect to all other thread efforts Posted via Mobile Device

It's in another thread, posted here for your convenience.

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30831

[sheg]

It is important to be clear that there are two d separate measures: quality of program overall ( ability to win), and quality of job. I'd quantify quality of job with these metrics, in no particular order, and a lot of them overlap:

1) quality of facilities
2) administrative support
3) educational support
4) ability to get kids admitted
5) quality of campus/education/dorms/food
6) ability to pay me
7) ability to pay quality assistants
8) a good AD and department
9) recruiting budget
10) charter flights for games and recruiting
11) a program that can win its conference
12) a conference that can get at large bids
13) TV contract

among others. Other factors might be a guy's alma mater, family connection to the area, etc.

Generally, I'd put UD somewhere the top 30 of D1 for the above. For an aspirational assistant, it is a stepping stone if they get an invite into the top 10 club ( and make no mistake, IU is a member of that v club). If you're a 51 year old alum, it might be more of a destination.

But that doesn't necessarily mean I want AG here until he retires! I hope he's offered Florida in five years! Because to get that offer, he'd have had a great run here at UD. ( now whether he'd take that job, who knows. He has a history there, it is his home state, they may desire connection to the Donovan tree, who knows.) Or he may be content to stay at his alma mater for comparable money. That'd be ideal, if he's already reached that level at UD.

I said when Archie was hired that I hoped he'd be gone to a better program in five years, because that would mean we had enjoyed the success commensurate with the coach earning that job move.

If you need loyalty to alma mater to cement your status as a destination, you aren't a destination.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER For Archie and BG, we were not destination jobs, obviously.

I don't think the Archie and BG situations were at all similar. On paper, it looks like BG left for bigger job but it was lateral at best. BG left because his seat was getting a little hot in Dayton. Who knows, with a tad more success but not too much, BG may have been a lifer at UD.

[UDGutter2]

Originally Posted by CE80 I don't think the Archie and BG situations were at all similar. On paper, it looks like BG left for bigger job but it was lateral at best. BG left because his seat was getting a little hot in Dayton. Who knows, with a tad more success but not too much, BG may have been a lifer at UD.

Feel the same way, BG truly loved UD, and aside from a MSU opening, he may not have left if not for the heat.

[CT Flyer]

I think its the individual coach that decides whether a job is a destination job for them. Everyone thinks Gonzaga is a destination job because of Mark Few but I'm not convinced that if he left tomorrow and they hired an outside up and coming assistant coach to take over, that said coach would be there forever if a P5 school came calling. Hell Kansas is certainly what most people would consider a destination job but Roy Williams did not stay there forever.

[NJFlyr71]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer I think its the individual coach that decides whether a job is a destination job for them. Everyone thinks Gonzaga is a destination job because of Mark Few but I'm not convinced that if he left tomorrow and they hired an outside up and coming assistant coach to take over, that said coach would be there forever if a P5 school came calling. Hell Kansas is certainly what most people would consider a destination job but Roy Williams did not stay there forever.

CT Flyer to your point, perception has a lot to do with a program being considered destination or not. Then again there is a perception scale where some programs are deemed higher or lower when comparing programs against each other. A program in the annual RPI of 250-350 is not a destination. Programs ranked in the 1-30 RPI can be considered destination jobs. Within that 1-30 range some are blue-bloods. If you hit one of those Blue-Bloods typically unless the coach can't produce, you can stay on. Where does one go after a KY? Lateral maybe, but anything lower like Miss State or LSU? No way after KY. So Williams move from Kansas to UNC wasn't really a drop off perception or reality wise more like a lateral.

AM's move from Dayton to IU is a step up perception wise for most people being asked this very question: " Do you think AM's move from Dayton to IU is a step up in his coaching career?"

Perception of program levels are both in the eye of the coach BUT also in the view of the sporting public.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 CT Flyer to your point, perception has a lot to do with a program being considered destination or not. Then again there is a perception scale where some programs are deemed higher or lower when comparing programs against each other. A program in the annual RPI of 250-350 is not a destination. Programs ranked in the 1-30 RPI can be considered destination jobs. Within that 1-30 range some are blue-bloods. If you hit one of those Blue-Bloods typically unless the coach can't produce, you can stay on. Where does one go after a KY? Lateral maybe, but anything lower like Miss State or LSU? No way after KY. So Williams move from Kansas to UNC wasn't really a drop off perception or reality wise more like a lateral. AM's move from Dayton to IU is a step up perception wise for most people being asked this very question: " Do you think AM's move from Dayton to IU is a step up in his coaching career?" Perception of program levels are both in the eye of the coach BUT also in the view of the sporting public.

If you are going off the view of the sporting public, then 95% of them would not view UD as a destination job. The only sporting public that would view Dayton as a destination job are UD fans. Don't get me wrong, most of them would think we are a good program, but even peers in our league do not view us as a destination.

[CT Flyer]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 CT Flyer to your point, perception has a lot to do with a program being considered destination or not. Then again there is a perception scale where some programs are deemed higher or lower when comparing programs against each other. A program in the annual RPI of 250-350 is not a destination. Programs ranked in the 1-30 RPI can be considered destination jobs. Within that 1-30 range some are blue-bloods. If you hit one of those Blue-Bloods typically unless the coach can't produce, you can stay on. Where does one go after a KY? Lateral maybe, but anything lower like Miss State or LSU? No way after KY. So Williams move from Kansas to UNC wasn't really a drop off perception or reality wise more like a lateral. AM's move from Dayton to IU is a step up perception wise for most people being asked this very question: " Do you think AM's move from Dayton to IU is a step up in his coaching career?" Perception of program levels are both in the eye of the coach BUT also in the view of the sporting public.

My point is that the only ones who can determine if a job is a destination job are coaches. There is no way to quantify which schools are destination jobs. If you want to say Kansas is a destination job I would say you would be right 99% of the time but obviously for Roy Williams it was not a destination job. If it were then he would never have left unless asked to leave.

On the other side I doubt many would say Davidson is a destination yet for Bob McKillup it is a destination job.

So the designation of a destination job is really only in the eyes of the beholder or this case the coach. No fan, no media, etc. can 100% designate a school as a destination job or not a destination job. If Anthony Grant stays at UD until he retires it was definitely his destination job but does that necessarily make it a destination job for other coaches?