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  #1  
Old 06-15-2017, 10:52 AM
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Big Ten discussing 20 game schedule

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...nference-slate

ACC is already moving to a 20 game schedule. Will the SEC & PAC12 follow? Big 12 and Big East can't

If it gets harder and harder to schedule P5 teams does the A10 move to a 20 game schedule?
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:13 AM
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Just a way to make it harder on those not in the p5.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:15 AM
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With the Big Ten ACC challenge, Gavit Games and other events this is gonna make next to impossible to ever hope to play an ACC or Big 10 team again
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:46 AM
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It would actually make scheduling easier if the A10 goes to 20. You would play 7 teams twice and 6 teams once.

The BE would have to go to 10.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:37 PM
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Screw em. I say call their bluff and go down to a 14 game schedule and have everyone in the league play complete patsies for the extra 4 games AT HOME. If everyone has twenty + wins it will improve everyone's RPI. Isn't that what the big east did for years and years?

Can you imagine the howling at NCAA tournament time when the A10 gets 6 teams in-- all by virtue of winning top 50 games against each other?
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Screw em. I say call their bluff and go down to a 14 game schedule and have everyone in the league play complete patsies for the extra 4 games AT HOME. If everyone has twenty + wins it will improve everyone's RPI. Isn't that what the big east did for years and years?

Can you imagine the howling at NCAA tournament time when the A10 gets 6 teams in-- all by virtue of winning top 50 games against each other?
Can you expand on this?

I do not see how this would help.

I ran the rpi wizard. I dropped 2 home a10 games, and I dropped 2 a10 away games. The 4 a10 teams that I dropped were all middle of the pack teams for the 2016-2017 season.

I dropped Davidson, SBU, GW, and George Mason.

I added 4 home wins vs. #200 Morehead State.

UD's rpi and sos went from 30 and 71 to 36 and 89.

Your idea seems to make things worse, not better.

Last edited by ud2; 06-15-2017 at 03:27 PM..
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  #7  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Can you expand on this?

I do not see how this would help.

I ran the rpi wizard. I dropped 2 home a10 games, and I dropped 2 a10 away games. The 4 a10 teams that I dropped were all middle of the pack teams for the 2016-2017 season.

I dropped Davidson, SBU, GW, and George Mason.

I added 4 home games vs. #200 Morehead State.

UD's rpi and sos went from 30 and 71 to 36 and 89.

Your idea seems to make things worse, not better.
It really comes down to replacing some conference losses with non-conference wins. The more conference games, the more conference losses you are locking in before the season. The best the A10 can do as whole in conference is finish .500.

A10 Win% (2016-17)
Conference: 126-126 (.500)
Non-Conference: 104-66 (.612)
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Old 06-15-2017, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
It really comes down to replacing some conference losses with non-conference wins. The more conference games, the more conference losses you are locking in before the season. The best the A10 can do as whole in conference is finish .500.

A10 Win% (2016-17)
Conference: 126-126 (.500)
Non-Conference: 104-66 (.612)
That makes sense.

I reran it, dropped our 3 a10 losses from this past season: at UMass, at VCU, and at GW, added 3 home wins vs. MSU...rpi 21 sos 82.

The selection committee will then hammer the a10 teams for having weak sos's...they will not let you game the system like that.
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:15 PM
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UD would likely replace conference wins with non-conference wins. I was thinking more of the indirect impact of trading out some of the conference losses of the bottom teams. For example, UMass was 10-3 vs. non-conf and 5-15 vs the A10. Given their W/L%, if you switch out 4 games, you could replace 1-3 vs A10, with 3-1 vs. non-conf. That would take them from 15-18 to 17-16.

The trade off is not getting to play both URI and VCU twice at 14 games, which is a negative. I wasn't the biggest fan of going from 16 to 18 games, but it isn't entirely bad if we are going to be locked in with SLU and DUQ as 2 of the H/H's. I wouldn't want the A10 to follow suit with going to 20 games.
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:34 PM
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UD2... I was saying this partly in jest but there is some truth to it. You can't look at it only improving our W/L recorded but the W/L record of EVERY A10 team.

14 is probably too low but I seriously think the A10 would be better off with a 16 game schedule if the P5 all go to 20 games. It would only work if the Fordham's, LaSalle's and St. Bona's of the A10 wouldn't prostitute themselves out and play two road games with the two extra non con games. If the A10 had a winning record of .800 for the 4 game delta between 20 and 16 (which is why I said play patsies) it could make the A10 look stronger in the RPI.

Going to 18 was probably good because it forced the aforementioned schools to play another home game instead of a "buy loss" to help meet their financial goals. This is one reason the A10 suffers during even good years--when 6-8 schools are competitive--because the dogs of the league lose so many buy games. That doesn't happen in the big east.
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:53 PM
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The RPI boost comes if the bottom half of the conference all starts conference play with wins and a good record. They can have low SOS and not the greatest RPI but then when we beat them we get their wins for the first level of SOS and RPI.

As stated above, once conference play starts the conference can not gain any wins. Each conference game has a winner and a loser. But if Fordham and Duquesne can get 10-12 non con wins then the whole conference gets a boost. The worst thing for UD is to have a team play a tough non con and not get any wins but then turn it on in conference play.
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2017, 10:42 AM
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Two ways to boost RPI:

1. Join Big East
2. Remove two of the these (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne, St Louis)

I prefer #1, but am all in favor of #2.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
Two ways to boost RPI:

1. Join Big East
2. Remove two of the these (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne, St Louis)

I prefer #1, but am all in favor of #2.
Preferably Fordham and Duquesne. Since La Salle and SLU actually have really good years every now and then.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:15 AM
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St louis will be back this year big time. They had a JOB type situation with Jim Crews.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:55 AM
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If just two, Fordham and LaSalle are probably top of the list. Neither have the resources or commitment to ever be more than what they have been. Duquesne is probably third on that list.

SLU has been bad for much of it's A10 tenure, but not because of lack of resources or commitment.

I would probably put St Bonnies third overall, as they lack the resources to ever be consistently good in a top 10 league. Despite that they have performed reasonably well in men's hoops. But I'd much rather have a SLU and hope they get their act together than someone with almost no upside from what is essentially mediocrity.
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I would probably put St Bonnies third overall, as they lack the resources to ever be consistently good in a top 10 league. Despite that they have performed reasonably well in men's hoops. But I'd much rather have a SLU and hope they get their act together than someone with almost no upside from what is essentially mediocrity.
The Bonnie's have 6 Top-100 Ken Pom finishes since '02. SLU and GMU also have 6. UMASS has 5. Duquesne, La Salle, and Fordham all have less than 5.

For some perspective, UD, VCU, Richmond, SJU and I think Davidson have double digits. GW has 6. URI has 7.

Last edited by hawkoooo; 06-16-2017 at 01:54 PM..
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Old 06-16-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
Two ways to boost RPI:

1. Join Big East
2. Remove two of the these (Fordham, LaSalle, Duquesne, St Louis)

I prefer #1, but am all in favor of #2.
This "who should we get rid of argument" comes up often. Though it may never happen, I thought it was at least worth it to see what the performance of each school actually was over the last decade.

I ran the numbers and here is the average KenPom rating for each team over the last 10 years:
VCU: 43
Dayton: 58
Richmond: 89
Davidson: 90
URI: 102
SJU: 109
UMass: 119
GW: 124
SBU: 124
GMU: 127
LaSalle: 131
SLU: 138
Duq: 147
Fordham: 237

This really shows how much worse Fordham has been than everyone else in the conference. Duquense is 2nd worst, but they are least close to some schools. The ratings difference from 2nd to 13th is the same as the distance from 13th to 14th.

Fordham has 8 seasons in the last 10 with KenPom >200.
The rest of the conference has 9 total (Duq 3, SLU 3, LaS 1, GM 1, SBU 1).
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2017, 02:18 PM
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George Mason could be on that list, but we just let them join. What the heck was someone thinking?
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
George Mason could be on that list, but we just let them join. What the heck was someone thinking?
Ease up on GM, Dave Paulsen is a veteran hc with a track record of success. He also was a hc in d2 and d3 for about 15 years.

He has improved from year 1 to year 2.

I think he is going to work out at GM.


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2008–09 Bucknell 7–23 4–10 T–7th
2009–10 Bucknell 14–17 9–5 2nd
2010–11 Bucknell 25–9 13–1 1st NCAA Second Round
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Old 06-17-2017, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
The Bonnie's have 6 Top-100 Ken Pom finishes since '02. SLU and GMU also have 6. UMASS has 5. Duquesne, La Salle, and Fordham all have less than 5.

For some perspective, UD, VCU, Richmond, SJU and I think Davidson have double digits. GW has 6. URI has 7.
The problem with the Bonnie's is with 6 top 100s in 15 years they are maxing out their potential. Others with more resources have a far higher ceiling.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:10 AM
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I think Dambrot will get it done at Duquesne. In the 2018 class they've already beat out West Virginia for a center from the Chillicothe area. He got some nice transfers as well in the spring. I don't know if they'll contend for A10 titles but I don't think they'll be the embarrassment that they've been.

LaSalle, well hopefully the transfer route they've taken makes them competitive.
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Old 06-17-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
George Mason could be on that list, but we just let them join. What the heck was someone thinking?
GM finished at about rpi #200 after DP's 1st year.

They finished at about rpi #100 after year 2, a 50% improvement.

If they improve by another 50% this year, they will be a top 50, NIT-bound team.

It only took DP 2 years to turn Bucknell into a Patriot League contender, in year 3, he won the PL title.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:35 PM
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The other thing the 20 game schedule is gonna hurt is the quality of exempt tournaments. I suspect we won't see few if any Big10 or ACC teams in our neutral site exempt tourneys

If you're a Big10 or ACC school and you've got 20 conference games, the ACC/Big10 challenge.

Let's take Clemson or Georgia Tech. Both also have a SEC rival (South Carolina & Georgia) they play every year. That's 22 games out of 30 schedule right off the bat.

Instead of playing in the Charleston Classic or the standard neutral site exempt tourney I could see these schools going the route of just hosting an exempt tourney at their home arena with low majors to get the extra home games. Ohio State did this and played Florida H/H with both of them hosting at the rest of the tourney. OSU did this one year and played Notre Dame at Madison Square Garden.


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Old 06-17-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
GM finished at about rpi #200 after DP's 1st year.

They finished at about rpi #100 after year 2, a 50% improvement.

If they improve by another 50% this year, they will be a top 50, NIT-bound team.

It only took DP 2 years to turn Bucknell into a Patriot League contender, in year 3, he won the PL title.
And if Andy Dalton improves 50% he will lead the Bengals to the Superbowl.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:21 AM
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I don't think Paulsen gets them into the top 3 this year but he's a good coach. Within five years they should be a postseason team
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
It would actually make scheduling easier if the A10 goes to 20. You would play 7 teams twice and 6 teams once.

The BE would have to go to 10.
This reduces the ability for quality wins.

If the A10 rewards the better teams in the A10 with a stronger pod, then we get the best schedule possible in conference.

A10 teams need the opportunity for strong wins outside of the conference. Tying up your schedule with conference games increases the SOS and ease of scheduling for the P5 and hurts the non-P5 schools.

BE can do as they please OOC because they don't rely on it for their total body of work.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:43 AM
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Once again, we have to ask where are all the matchups between all the top mid-majors. Why aren't they scheduling each other? Yes, UD has SMC on a home/home basis, but where are the others? The top teams in the non P5 conferences should all be scheduling each other, along with one to two P5 if you can get it, then your buy games. That would give you the opportunity for 3 - 4 quality OOC wins, plus an exempt tourney, then conference. Yes, easier said than done, but if they want the SOS and RPI, they are going to have to get it done.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
Once again, we have to ask where are all the matchups between all the top mid-majors. Why aren't they scheduling each other? Yes, UD has SMC on a home/home basis, but where are the others? The top teams in the non P5 conferences should all be scheduling each other, along with one to two P5 if you can get it, then your buy games. That would give you the opportunity for 3 - 4 quality OOC wins, plus an exempt tourney, then conference. Yes, easier said than done, but if they want the SOS and RPI, they are going to have to get it done.
I have to believe that there are several other good, non-p5 programs that are in the same boat as us:

Gonzaga, SMC, BYU, San Diego State, Boise State, Memphis, Cincinnati, SMU, UConn, Temple, Wichita State, New Mexico, Northern Iowa, Valpo, UNLV, etc.
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Old 06-29-2017, 02:17 PM
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Indiana and Illinois with exempt tourney's at home against cup cakes. In a 20 game conference schedule this is gonna be the norm

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Old 06-29-2017, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Indiana and Illinois with exempt tourney's at home against cup cakes. In a 20 game conference schedule this is gonna be the norm

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So those four games all at home plus their 20 game conference schedule? So what. That's only 24 games. How is that any different than them playing 4 buy games in the non-con.
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Old 06-29-2017, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
So those four games all at home plus their 20 game conference schedule? So what. That's only 24 games. How is that any different than them playing 4 buy games in the non-con.
Those 4 games are part of an exempt tournament, so only count as 1 game if I understand it correctly, so currently at 21 game schedule.
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Old 06-29-2017, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Those 4 games are part of an exempt tournament, so only count as 1 game if I understand it correctly, so currently at 21 game schedule.
This

Instead of playing at neutral site event like Charleston, Orlando, Maui, etc they're hosting their own tournament to get extra home games.

Hosting your own multi team exempt tourney at home for the extra games I think is going to become more common with the 20 game schedule and challenges, neutral site events, long standing rivalries, etc in the Big 10 and ACC.

What does this mean for the Flyers? I think we'll see fewer high quality opponents in exempt tourneys going forward. The fields in the future may be closer to the Charleston Classic this year with weaker opponents. 2/8 teams are from the Power 5 with Temple & Dayton as the only other opponents from multi-bid conferences

For example, Iowa who was a big OOC win two years ago in the Orlando tourney. If they go to a 20 game big schedule. They play Iowa State every year and in the ACC/B10 challenge along with the Gavitt Games against the Big East every so often.

There's gonna be a need to host a multi-team tourney to get their number of home games versus playing a neutral site event
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  #33  
Old 06-29-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
This

Instead of playing at neutral site event like Charleston, Orlando, Maui, etc they're hosting their own tournament to get extra home games.

Hosting your own multi team exempt tourney at home for the extra games I think is going to become more common with the 20 game schedule and challenges, neutral site events, long standing rivalries, etc in the Big 10 and ACC.

What does this mean for the Flyers? I think we'll see fewer high quality opponents in exempt tourneys going forward. The fields in the future may be closer to the Charleston Classic this year with weaker opponents. 2/8 teams are from the Power 5 with Temple & Dayton as the only other opponents from multi-bid conferences

For example, Iowa who was a big OOC win two years ago in the Orlando tourney. If they go to a 20 game big schedule. They play Iowa State every year and in the ACC/B10 challenge along with the Gavitt Games against the Big East every so often.

There's gonna be a need to host a multi-team tourney to get their number of home games versus playing a neutral site event

I agree with what your saying, but The fact the NCAA allows you to "host" your own "exempt" tourney is ridiculous. This needs to change ASAP, or I fear our schedule will suck more in the future.
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  #34  
Old 06-29-2017, 04:19 PM
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I think Dayton probably has to consider to hosting their own if the quality of exempt tourney's drops. If we got four home games out of it, that would free up the schedule for some more home/home series.
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Old 06-29-2017, 04:32 PM
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We used to have our own tournament

Bring back the Merrill Lynch Classic.

I remember Butler, Cal, and Drake coming to that quite often.

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Old 06-29-2017, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by udflyerhoops2 View Post
Bring back the Merrill Lynch Classic.

I remember Butler, Cal, and Drake coming to that quite often.
Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Those 4 games are part of an exempt tournament, so only count as 1 game if I understand it correctly, so currently at 21 game schedule.
Wow. Did not know that part. I retract my statement. Also hosting a tournament like that would be cool. And if it included those three teams or similar every year I'd be jacked.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by udflyerhoops2 View Post
Bring back the Merrill Lynch Classic.

I remember Butler, Cal, and Drake coming to that quite often.
Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
Wow. Did not know that part. I retract my statement. Also hosting a tournament like that would be cool. And if it included those three teams or similar every year I'd be jacked.

And that is the problem. Before you know it, everyone of the BCS conference schools, or whatever we are suppose to call them now, will be hosting tournaments like this. Zero chance of getting a Cal or Butler if we did such a thing, pure luck for even a Drake. When the best IU can get is Howard, South Florida, Ark. State and Eastern Mich how could we expect to get better teams?
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
And that is the problem. Before you know it, everyone of the BCS conference schools, or whatever we are suppose to call them now, will be hosting tournaments like this. Zero chance of getting a Cal or Butler if we did such a thing, pure luck for even a Drake. When the best IU can get is Howard, South Florida, Ark. State and Eastern Mich how could we expect to get better teams?
I am pretty sure this is by design by IU. These tournaments go on each year, and the host school almost always picks schools that guarantee they will win. Normally it's 1 game against a team you should win and then 2 games against cupcakes.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
I am pretty sure this is by design by IU. These tournaments go on each year, and the host school almost always picks schools that guarantee they will win. Normally it's 1 game against a team you should win and then 2 games against cupcakes.
Your probably right. If your name is Indiana, you do not need to strategically schedule RPI boosters on your non conference schedule like our Flyers do

What is the math come tourney time, a 55 RPI for a Big 10 school gets chosen over a 35 RPI from a "mid major"?
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:34 PM
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20-GAME LEAGUE SCHEDULES WILL CAUSE PROBLEMS FOR CERTAIN CONFERENCES

Times continue to change in college basketball.

FanRag Sports reported last week that Big Ten programs are prepared to go from 18 to 20 league games as early as the 2018-19 season and with the ACC already set to make the transition during the 2019-20 season, one has to wonder when all major leagues will make this change.

What does this mean for conferences that aren’t in the Power 5 with the exception of the Big East?

A major potential problem in terms of how many teams they get in the NCAA Tournament on an annual basis.

This writer has said repeatedly in this space and others that conferences like the Atlantic 10 and the American need to look into doing an early-season challenge to get their NCAA Tournament contenders as many quality games as possible and that sentiment will need to be expedited as more leagues go to 20 conference games.

The American took a major step forward with the addition of Wichita State, but all bets are off for certain leagues and their potential NCAA Tournament representation if power conferences begin playing 20 league games.

Two more conference games against quality competition will completely alter the metrics used to comprise the teams in the field of 68 and there’s no way of getting around it.

The Mountain West has gone through multiple years with only one team in the NCAA Tournament and there’s no guarantee that will be change in 2018.

Coaches in non-power leagues need to address this topic at their next conference meeting — or earlier.

https://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/rot...-rely-defense/
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:10 PM
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There's only so much that can be done unless the NCAA wants to push play outside of conference. They could do it if they wanted to and should considering that the NCAA tournament is built on the idea of Cinderella teams having a chance at upsetting (and not always an upset) of a P5 conference team. If you make it so only the P5 conference teams are in the tournament, viewership will dramatically decrease. Of course, the non-P5 conferences should be setting up either neutral site or home/home with each other, but each year it's sort of a crap-shoot as to what teams will be good. But with scheduling getting more and more difficult, I don't know how you solve this. I guess one way would be to say you only get to count x number of conference games towards an NCAA bid, so even if you play 20, no more than 16 would be recognized. Not sure that's workable, but you get the idea.
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Old 08-28-2017, 11:23 PM
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Why can't non "power 5" conferences simply have agreements in place to do a few big time non-con showdowns based on the prior year's finish?

MW/A10

AAC/A10

If every year you knew you'd have 1-2 big games no matter what it seems like that would more than make up for the "power 5" going to 20 games. I hate those **** terms so I have to use quotations.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
There's only so much that can be done unless the NCAA wants to push play outside of conference. They could do it if they wanted to and should considering that the NCAA tournament is built on the idea of Cinderella teams having a chance at upsetting (and not always an upset) of a P5 conference team. If you make it so only the P5 conference teams are in the tournament, viewership will dramatically decrease. Of course, the non-P5 conferences should be setting up either neutral site or home/home with each other, but each year it's sort of a crap-shoot as to what teams will be good. But with scheduling getting more and more difficult, I don't know how you solve this. I guess one way would be to say you only get to count x number of conference games towards an NCAA bid, so even if you play 20, no more than 16 would be recognized. Not sure that's workable, but you get the idea.
As long as conference champions get an autobid, there will be Cinderellas. I don't think viewership will change much either way if the A10 or American gets another team or 2 in the tourney as opposed to the ACC or Big 10.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:54 AM
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Maybe, but when you've watered down the tournament, by having fewer Cinderellas and more Wake Forests who probably have losing conference records, and a wins from a schedule padded with a few patsies, they'll lose me as a viewer. If the A-10 gets to the point where it's a 1 bid conference because the top teams can't secure enough top 50 wins or whatever they determine is important, then it becomes pointless, and completely degrades the conferences because what good recruits will want to play anywhere where they will have little chance of ever playing in the tournament?
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:31 AM
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Aside from the P5 and the BE, last years field looked like this.

American (2): SMU, Cincinnati
Atlantic 10 (3): Dayton, VCU, Rhode Island
West Coast (2): Gonzaga, Saint Mary’s

As much as we care, the viewer that only watches CBB during the tourney won't care if those 7 teams are reduced to 3.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:22 PM
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I suspect the NCAA is the only organization that can do anything about this, but I suspect they won't. So long as CBS forks over billions, they won't care what the P5 do.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:31 PM
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Who is the NCAA? It is run and influenced by the member schools. And although 80% are not the big schools, they hold the power, dollars and influence. Play their way or they will take their football and form their own basketball association.
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:37 PM
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https://www.fanragsports.com/trickle...gue-schedules/


Where do these leagues turn now in terms of scheduling with most power conferences toying with the idea of all going to 20 games?

That’s to be determined.

This writer wrote over the summer that the Atlantic 10 and American Conference needed to investigate an early-season “challenge” in an effort to get the teams at the top of their respective leagues better games, but the American’s addition of Wichita State may have changed its urgency to participate in such an event.

With the addition of the Shockers, this league now has a bona fide top-tier program to go alongside Cincinnati, SMU, Temple and others.

Another thing to keep in mind?

The American hasn’t gotten the mileage it’s hoped the past few years out of its two strongest brands — UConn and Memphis.

If that changes, this could be easily be a four- or five-bid league on an annual basis.

*****

Most college coaches will tell you that scheduling is the second most important part of any program, after recruiting, and it’s going to get even harder.

If most teams from Power 5 leagues are committed to 20 conference games — and in the Big Ten’s case, an additional tilt in both the Gavitt Games and the ACC/Big Ten Challenge — then there’s going to be very little wiggle room with scheduling.

“You’re going to be committed to 24 or 25 games before you can even begin your schedule when you consider that you’re also probably playing in a preseason tournament,” one Big Ten assistant told FanRag Sports last week. “There’s going to be minimal room to work with.”

And that also severely hurts programs in leagues like the Atlantic 10 and the Mountain West because it inhibits their ability to get home-and-home situations with teams that boast a higher level of cachet.

With 20 league games in place, the metrics are set up for teams from the Power 5 conferences and the Big East to eat up the majority of the at-large bid each-and-every March.

“The Big Ten isn’t doing this to get six teams in the NCAA Tournament,” one Big Ten head coach said last week on the condition of anonymity. “They’re doing this to get programs like Penn State and Nebraska into the NCAA Tournament. Going to 20 league games will create more opportunities for teams that aren’t usually in contention. That’s the goal of this.”
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:33 PM
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http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/spo...jnuscNKY7ucmN/

Neil Sullivan talking about the impact. 20 league schedule is on the table for the A10
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:27 PM
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I'm very concerned about the long term ramifications of this. I hate to say it, but it may be UD's interest to grab VCU ( and possibly St. Louis) and head to the American. If the A10 starts to become a 2 bid league, the margin of error becomes very small. Players sense it and avoid the A10 and a vicious cycle can begin.
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Old 10-24-2017, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
I'm very concerned about the long term ramifications of this. I hate to say it, but it may be UD's interest to grab VCU ( and possibly St. Louis) and head to the American. If the A10 starts to become a 2 bid league, the margin of error becomes very small. Players sense it and avoid the A10 and a vicious cycle can begin.
What makes you think that the AAC would be intersted in a setup like that. We are not in the drivers seat on any type of realignment.
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:33 PM
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I think the biggest short term ramification is that we won't see or have fewer ACC/Big 10 schools in exempt tourneys. Iowa was a marquee win for us two years in Orlando. So quality of team in these tourneys could drop off and look more like the Charleston Classic this year

The Big East and Big 12 are stuck at 10 teams so a 20 game schedule for them seems unlikely. That might open some opportunities for us. Likewise the American, Gonzaga, St. Marys, etc might get squeezed too


As to the American, if we and VCU continue on the track of being consistent NCAA teams over the next several years both programs would be attractive to them. Add Dayton/VCU and they clearly have the best non P5/Big East conference and suck up the A10's at large bids potentially. They and the Big East are gonna get squeezed by this too so the incentive might there to expand

If Dayton is on a run of 9 straight tourney appearances or 8/9 years then they are very attractive to the Big East/American. Gotta prove this isn't just Archie and it's a sustainable program
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I think the biggest short term ramification is that we won't see or have fewer ACC/Big 10 schools in exempt tourneys. Iowa was a marquee win for us two years in Orlando. So quality of team in these tourneys could drop off and look more like the Charleston Classic this year

The Big East and Big 12 are stuck at 10 teams so a 20 game schedule for them seems unlikely. That might open some opportunities for us. Likewise the American, Gonzaga, St. Marys, etc might get squeezed too


As to the American, if we and VCU continue on the track of being consistent NCAA teams over the next several years both programs would be attractive to them. Add Dayton/VCU and they clearly have the best non P5/Big East conference and suck up the A10's at large bids potentially. They and the Big East are gonna get squeezed by this too so the incentive might there to expand

If Dayton is on a run of 9 straight tourney appearances or 8/9 years then they are very attractive to the Big East/American. Gotta prove this isn't just Archie and it's a sustainable program
My "Deep Throat" at Seton Hall tells me that since other conferences are going to 20 conference games, The Big East is exploring the idea of doing the same. However, since the BE is in love with the true Round Robin structure of its conference schedule, another team would have to be added, bringing the number of teams to 11. Two teams being discussed are UConn and UD. I honestly don't know how serious any discussion is nor do I know what UConn would do with its football team. UConn has spent a lot of money on football.
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:15 PM
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I would think the Big East would be attractive to many UConn fans at first blush, it was their home for a long time, plus I'm sure there is a decent amount of indifference to their football program. However, the Big East of today isn't the Big East of the late 80s to early 90s when UConn grew from just "another program" into a top tier power basketball school. Syracuse is gone, Georgetown is no longer the monster it was in the mid 80s to early 90s, playing SJU in the Garden is nice for the Garden, but SJU hasn't been all that relevant in forever. They've added great programs in XU, Creighton and Butler, but I'm sure many of their fans just consider those more fodder from fly over country. Its a step up from the AAC, but its not a huge step up. It gives them a stronger foot hold on the east coast where I'm sure they draw an overwhelming majority of their student base from, but in terms of basketball its not significantly better that you'd give up the dream of power 5 football and the ACC or Big 10. If they give up on football now, they'll never see the likes of those conferences, even if their inclusion seems contingent on either the Big 12 breaking apart and Texas/Oklahoma making a move, or Notre Dame deciding to house their football program permanently in either the ACC or B10.

I don't know where expansion talks are headed or who is up for consideration, but I'm sure it raised a few eyebrows in the Big East when the AAC added Wichita St. If there is a desire to move to 11 teams and a 20 game round robin, they now realize that the AAC is willing to add non football schools to strengthen its basketball and any future expansion will likely involve teams that the Big East would consider as their 11th (or 12, 13th, etc..) team.
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:35 PM
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UConn has sunk way too much into football and still has a shot at a P5 if they ever expand again to go back to the Big East.

Every program outside the BCS leagues this century outside of the West Coast has had a chance to move up in conferences if they win consistently. Wichita State, Butler, VCU, Creighton, Xavier. Win like them and the problem
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:04 PM
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Efforts by major conferences to play more conference games will only hurt mid-major schools that are eager to earn at-large bids to the NCAA Tournament.

“Moving to 20 league games is going to change the entire model,” one Big Ten athletic director told FanRag Sports. “They want to wipe out the non-Power 5 schools from getting at-large bids completely. Moving to 20 games makes that more of a realistic possibility.”

https://www.rumbleinthegarden.com/20...games-st-johns
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
“They want to wipe out the non-Power 5 schools from getting at-large bids completely. Moving to 20 games makes that more of a realistic possibility.”
Hasn't this already been done? I think last year there were 4 non-P5/BE teams with at large bids. There are still a number of schools that have major programs that can still schedule enough quality games including OOC tourneys, that a few will sneak into the NCAAT every year.

However, this is the type of collusive practice that deserves some attention from the federal government. Maybe the threat of losing some tax $s will get back to a little more level of a playing field.
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:54 PM
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Simple solution:

Allow the B10, etc...to play 20 league games (which is 2 more than the 18 they play now)...and also allow all NCAA D1 teams to play 2 more games in a season. That way...

The Big 5 get their way;
The rest of theD1 teams get their opportunities to play the Big 5's; and,
Everyone's revenues go up because of the extra games.

Student-Athletes be d*mned, money talks.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:27 PM
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Holtmann was asked if the 20-game league schedule limits what he can do with non-conference scheduling.

"You're adding two challenging, high-major opponents," he said. "Most schools will play 21, 22 maybe 23 -- in some cases less -- high major opponents, and fill the rest with home games (against lower teams). Now you have 20, and it challenges the flexibility of your schedule. You can't go out and play those home and homes with an Arizona. It would be too much for your team ... I believe in playing a challenging non-conference schedule, but I also believe in not beating your team up too much before Big Ten play."

http://www.cleveland.com/osu/2018/02...hris_ho_2.html
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:13 PM
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— The “Quadrant System” is another prime example of how college basketball is now obviously favoring teams in power conference. This system primarily benefits teams who have more opportunities to earn high quality wins and that’s teams from the power five leagues and the Big East. This is even going to get more lopsided when conferences like the ACC and Big Ten go to 20-game league schedules in the next few seasons.

https://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/rot...fferent-level/
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
— The “Quadrant System” is another prime example of how college basketball is now obviously favoring teams in power conference. This system primarily benefits teams who have more opportunities to earn high quality wins and that’s teams from the power five leagues and the Big East. This is even going to get more lopsided when conferences like the ACC and Big Ten go to 20-game league schedules in the next few seasons.

https://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/rot...fferent-level/
Did I miss an explanation of what is the Quadrant System?" Is it that when they have games like the Big10/ACC challenge, both conferences get boosted?
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:16 PM
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The selection committee will no longer use top 50, top 100, 200 and 201 and above as dividing categories. Instead, the new terminology will be quadrants 1, 2, 3 and 4. The decision is to get away from treating every team the same if the game was on the road, neutral or at home based on their power rating. Now the road/neutral games will matter more.

The breakdown will be as follows:
Quadrant 1: Home 1-30; Neutral 1-50; Away 1-75
Quadrant 2: Home 31-75; Neutral 51-100; Away 76-135
Quadrant 3: Home 76-160; Neutral 101-200; Away 136-240
Quadrant 4: Home 161-plus; Neutral 201-plus; Away 241-plus.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball...ts-emphasizing

So in this system beating a 15-11 Georgia team (65 RPI) that's headed to the NIT is better than beating Gonzaga (43 RPI) at home. With 10 games on the road in conference play next year, B1G/ACC can feast on mediocre 50-75 RPI to rack up Quad 1 wins
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:57 PM
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Hello, first post to your site. Always interesting to read views from elsewhere.

Anyway, just to note that there are a LOT of fans in the AAC who are seeing the shot in the arm that Wichita State is providing to the hoops side. And most agree that the two obvious best catches would be you guys and VCU.

Please let me say immediately that this is NO SLAM on the A-10. It is a fine league --- but if there is a desire of some to "look around", then there are a lot of folks with mutual interest.

Of course, for me, I would go full throttle and also offer UMass an ACC/Notre Dame type deal to provide them with x football games in October and November along with access to our bowl selections --- UConn (I want to keep them happy) needs another backyard rivalry beyond Temple.

On a side note --- I honestly still don't understand the Big East's decision(s) five years ago. Other than Xavier, with your FABULOUS support/attendance and much more geographically center (> Creighton) and also a Catholic school (> Butler), I thought #2 selection at worst.

One decision that also sabotaged the Missouri Valley --- taking UD over Creighton --- keeps the MVC at its strength (and perhaps we don't land WSU). In addition, it further damages the A-10 and isolates St. Louis to an almost apocalyptic manner --- where the MVC could have perhaps enticed them with the obvious carrot of the conference tournament being at their home city every year. What If ... What If.

Anyway, I know both you guys and VCU are not having your expected seasons --- but those who follow college hoops know that both will be back SOON. Thanks.

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Old 02-19-2018, 08:01 PM
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Welcome MemTgrs, nice to hear from a fellow hoops enthusiast.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MemTGRS View Post
Hello, first post to your site. Always interesting to read views from elsewhere.

Anyway, just to note that there are a LOT of fans in the AAC who are seeing the shot in the arm that Wichita State is providing to the hoops side. And most agree that the two obvious best catches would be you guys and VCU.

Please let me say immediately that this is NO SLAM on the A-10. It is a fine league --- but if there is a desire of some to "look around", then there are a lot of folks with mutual interest.

Of course, for me, I would go full throttle and also offer UMass an ACC/Notre Dame type deal to provide them with x football games in October and November along with access to our bowl selections --- UConn (I want to keep them happy) needs another backyard rivalry beyond Temple.

On a side note --- I honestly still don't understand the Big East's decision(s) five years ago. Other than Xavier, with your FABULOUS support/attendance and much more geographically center (> Creighton) and also a Catholic school (> Butler), I thought #2 selection at worst.

One decision that also sabotaged the Missouri Valley --- taking UD over Creighton --- keeps the MVC at its strength (and perhaps we don't land WSU). In addition, it further damages the A-10 and isolates St. Louis to an almost apocalyptic manner --- where the MVC could have perhaps enticed them with the obvious carrot of the conference tournament being at their home city every year. What If ... What If.

Anyway, I know both you guys and VCU are not having your expected seasons --- but those who follow college hoops know that both will be back SOON. Thanks.
Creighton and Butler's basketball success put them ahead of us for the founding of the Big East.

Some here disagree with me but I'd love to take VCU and move to the AAC. The AAC would be without question the premier non P5/Big East league and probably put the A10 at one bid status most years.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Some here disagree with me but I'd love to take VCU and move to the AAC. The AAC would be without question the premier non P5/Big East league and probably put the A10 at one bid status most years.
I would go to the AAC with VCU in a nano-second. With a basketball-only school nucleus of Wichita State, VCU, and UD, we would be fine even if UC and UConn left (which looks doubtful). Even if these schools left, we would be better off than we are now. With Temple, Memphis, SMU, Houston, and others and a couple of good additions, it would be an excellent conference (and better than the A-10) even if UC and UConn leave. If they don't leave it would be a great conference. But I'm afraid the UD administration wouldn't go for it. They probably wouldn't consider the institutions similar enough.
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Old 02-20-2018, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
The selection committee will no longer use top 50, top 100, 200 and 201 and above as dividing categories. Instead, the new terminology will be quadrants 1, 2, 3 and 4. The decision is to get away from treating every team the same if the game was on the road, neutral or at home based on their power rating. Now the road/neutral games will matter more.

The breakdown will be as follows:
Quadrant 1: Home 1-30; Neutral 1-50; Away 1-75
Quadrant 2: Home 31-75; Neutral 51-100; Away 76-135
Quadrant 3: Home 76-160; Neutral 101-200; Away 136-240
Quadrant 4: Home 161-plus; Neutral 201-plus; Away 241-plus.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball...ts-emphasizing

So in this system beating a 15-11 Georgia team (65 RPI) that's headed to the NIT is better than beating Gonzaga (43 RPI) at home. With 10 games on the road in conference play next year, B1G/ACC can feast on mediocre 50-75 RPI to rack up Quad 1 wins
This really does set the selection committee to pick more middle of the pack p5 schools at or just above .500 over the top teams in the second tier conferences. This is where the bottom of the A10 really drags down the top teams.
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Old 02-21-2018, 08:14 PM
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Thanks for the news/discussion. I wish I was in charge as I would have invited the Flyers and Rams yesterday.

I live in the VA Beach area, and I am actually going to the Thu-Sat games for the A-10 tournament. Through 2012, I went to the CAA every year (great stuff). This will be the first time since then that I'll see the colorful band (and band directors) for VCU and George Mason. Hope it will be ˝ as much fun as I think.
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Old 02-23-2018, 06:16 PM
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So when the national writer types was saying this is actually a benefit for mid majors. Teams like Monmouth when they won the those buy games a couple years ago would could more credit for winning road games.

It was also mentioned that teams can now say yeah it's hard to win at a VCU or where have you and now if they're a top 75 team it's weight as much as beating a top 25 team at home.
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Old 03-03-2018, 11:22 PM
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OSU Flyer,

What is the purpose of the p5 going to 20 game league schedules?

1. Keep more of the money? Instead of having to play an out-of-league home-and-home series, and thereby only keeping 1/2 of the money?

2. Increase sos for league members?

3. Give league members more q1 and q2 win opportunities?

4. All of the above?



It just seems that it would get boring for the fans to have to keep playing the same teams even more.
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:07 AM
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Remember that the power conferences are so big now that even with 18 games you still miss H/Hs with some teams. For instance rivals Indiana & Purdue played only once this year. Ohio State and Michigan State only played once.

In the 15 team ACC a lot of the traditional H/Hs and rivalries from the old ACC era are gone. Then you add in the fact if you're say a Syracuse maybe you get Duke, North Carolina or whoever high profile team at home now with those extra two games.

Money wise you've got a bigger pool of games for something like the Big 10 network and greater chance to have more attractive TV games like an Ohio St./Michigan St round 2. I don't think H/H gates are even a consideration with the staggering sums of TV $$$s at play.

More casual fans are watching in conference play once you get out out of football season vs OOC. A lot of the big OOC games in college basketball are on neutral courts like the Champion Classic, CBS Sports Classic,etc that are controlled by TV networks or challenges like the ACC/Big 10 which are partnered with ESPN. Remember that ESPN runs most the exempt tournaments now and controls the TV rights. The Champions Classic and ACC/Big10 challenge are the same type of deal.

So the Big 10 network misses out on all those high quality games. 20 games gives the Big 10 network a bigger pool of attractive conference games they can control the rights to. So the casual Ohio State fan doesn't care about basketball until the football season is over.

If you look at college basketball ratings last year 7/10 highest rated games were after January 1st. A Wisconsin Purdue game was higher rated than the Duke Kansas game in prime time at the start of the season in the Champions Classic

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2017...e-season-espn/

Long story short, more appealing and higher rated games on the Big 10 network are going to put more money directly into the pockets of Big 10 schools.

The theory is that it's going to help out the bubble teams in P5 leagues. Teams will dump harder OOC games to compensate for the 20 game schedule so more teams are going into conference play with more wins and fewer losses which will juice the computer numbers. More opportunity for Quad 1/2 wins, RPI, etc

It's easier for bubble teams to get big wins in conference play. You're gonna get better crowds during league play and you've got some familiarity with opponents. Penn State beat Ohio State 3 times this year but lost but both of the quality opponents the played in OOC. Boston College beat Duke this year but got blown out by Providence.

Fewer risky early season games like exempt tournaments or games when the team hasn't gelled yet
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:32 AM
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at some point your should start a new scheduling theory thread
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I would go to the AAC with VCU in a nano-second. With a basketball-only school nucleus of Wichita State, VCU, and UD, we would be fine even if UC and UConn left (which looks doubtful). Even if these schools left, we would be better off than we are now. With Temple, Memphis, SMU, Houston, and others and a couple of good additions, it would be an excellent conference (and better than the A-10) even if UC and UConn leave. If they don't leave it would be a great conference. But I'm afraid the UD administration wouldn't go for it. They probably wouldn't consider the institutions similar enough.
Both leagues are a collection of public and private schools with no real common thread amongst them. Obviously the A-10 has quite a few other Catholic schools, but are these schools really our peers? Other than SLU, Duquesne, and maybe Fordham, I'd argue no. Many of the schools in the AAC are large, national universities with strong reputations. Isn't that what we're striving to be? I don't think it's an institutional stretch, especially the league with our true institutional peers has no interest in us.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:36 PM
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Sources: Pac-12 considering shifting to a 20-game conference schedule. STORY @FanRagSports:
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Old 06-14-2018, 04:04 PM
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And more mid-majors get screwed out of Big5 OOC games...

Iowa Hawkeyes cancelling future Hy-Vee Classic starring in-state schools.

"In our last agreement we added language that provided each institution an opportunity to opt out of the remainder of the contract if they reached 22 required games by the conference," said Gary Barta, University of Iowa Henry B. and Patricia B. Tippie Director of Athletics chair.
Ok, all contracts have opt-outs.

Several changes have occurred since the creation of The Hy-Vee Classic. Maryland and Rutgers were added to the Big Ten Conference, and the Missouri Valley Conference added Valparaiso and Loyola after the departure of Wichita State and Creighton. In addition to the Big Ten's announcement of a 20-game league schedule, the Gavitt Tipoff Games, featuring the Big Ten versus the Big East was also introduced in 2015.
I love how they attempt to push some of the problem onto the MVC. Big10 added 2 teams, and moved to 20 game schedule, while MVC only replaced the 2 schools they lost. But, somehow the MVC is related. Yes, I know, the sentence starts with "Several changes have occurred...", but the implication are that those changes affected things. The only thing that affected the Hy-Vee being cancelled is the Big10 going to 20 conference games, and the Big10/BE Gavitt Tipoff adding a game.

If only there was a way for the RPI to ignore home wins against cupcake opponents.
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
If only there was a way for the RPI to ignore home wins against cupcake opponents.
I'd rather it remain the way it is now vs. ignoring it. Cupcakes (defined as teams with poor RPI's) will bring down an RPI, not help it.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post

If only there was a way for the RPI to ignore home wins against cupcake opponents.
Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
I'd rather it remain the way it is now vs. ignoring it. Cupcakes (defined as teams with poor RPI's) will bring down an RPI, not help it.
RPI by itself is meaningless. It comes down to who you beat and how many wins you had against good teams. The problem is and has been for quite a few years that the P5 conference teams have so many more opportunities to play good teams and the selection committees have valued a 6-6 record against good teams more than a 3-1 record against good teams. At large bids for non=P5 teams may become extinct.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:18 PM
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I don't really buy into the hype that leagues going to 20 games is some huge roadblock to anything. There are 350+ division one teams. If you play in a crappy league and want an at-large, you need to schedule well outside of league play and win some, ideally on the road. Then you need to amass wins via dominating said crappy league. If you play in a good league you still need to schedule well outside of it, but you can afford to lose more.

Let me give some examples of teams inside RPI 75 last year: South Dakota St., New Mexico St., Murray St., Boise St., Northeastern, Vermont, Louisiana, Greensboro...Anybody see the pattern yet?

Get creative. Research sleeper teams like Neil Sullivan does. Be willing to go on the road to weird places. Be willing to schedule 2-for-1 games, play on neutral courts, and give up a buy game once in a while. Your league could help of course by pairing up good teams, allowing an open scheduling scheme, and/or scheduling league challenges where the top teams play each year. The A10 doesn't help at all IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do we even have rules/suggestions about non-conference schedules like the SEC does for example?
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:14 PM
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https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-...-st-john-arena

So instead of playing in a neutral court exempt tourney Ohio State is playing in the Buckeye Basketball Classic against South Carolina State, Cleveland State, Samford and Purdue Ft. Wayne

expect this type of thing to pick up
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-...-st-john-arena

So instead of playing in a neutral court exempt tourney Ohio State is playing in the Buckeye Basketball Classic against South Carolina State, Cleveland State, Samford and Purdue Ft. Wayne

expect this type of thing to pick up

Why do those 4 games count the same as an exempt tourney? Just because they gave it a fancy name? The 4 games are spread out over 13 days and at home for OSU. Not an "exempt tourney" at all in my mind. Are the other teams all playing each other somewhere else to make it a round robin type event?
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-...-st-john-arena

So instead of playing in a neutral court exempt tourney Ohio State is playing in the Buckeye Basketball Classic against South Carolina State, Cleveland State, Samford and Purdue Ft. Wayne

expect this type of thing to pick up
I guess Thomas More, John Carroll, Capital and Findley were all busy!
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Why do those 4 games count the same as an exempt tourney? Just because they gave it a fancy name? The 4 games are spread out over 13 days and at home for OSU. Not an "exempt tourney" at all in my mind. Are the other teams all playing each other somewhere else to make it a round robin type event?
The other teams will play round robin, not sure how the set up is on that
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