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View Poll Results: What grade would you give Coach Brian Gregory on how he is doing as head coach at UD?
A 61 35.06%
B 79 45.40%
C 24 13.79%
D 10 5.75%
F 0 0%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 10-01-2010, 05:55 PM
FLYER FANATIC 88 FLYER FANATIC 88 is offline
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What grade would you give Coach Brian Gregory on how he is doing as head coach @ UD?

Brian Gregory has coached the Dayton Flyers 7 seasons. What grade would you give him for the job he is doing as head coach? Why?
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  #2  
Old 10-01-2010, 06:40 PM
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I would say A or A-. I would give him a B on his accomplishments so far because of our A10 record. But, overall I would say A because we have a lot of young talent here and more coming in. We lost three starters and still feel good about our chances this year. Can you remember a Pre Gregory time where we lost three starters and expected to have a good season?
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Old 10-01-2010, 06:58 PM
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I would say a solid B+. He has great support and facilities, plus an acceptable conference. He just has to execute and he has to an acceptable level.

I could not give him an A unless I thought Butler / _avier were just lucky, which is not the case. 1 NCAA win in his time here, and I have to wonder if we win that game if not for a couple of early 3's that scared WV out of their zone. But win we did.
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  #4  
Old 10-01-2010, 07:25 PM
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BG could be graded in several areas.

Recruiting --> A much higher caliber talent than his two predecessors
Performance against BCS schools --> A+
A10 league performance --> B- some disappointments
Representing the University --> A honors tradition, education and graduation
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  #5  
Old 10-01-2010, 07:31 PM
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Would the person who gave BG a C please be man (or woman) enough to explain your reasoning.
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  #6  
Old 10-01-2010, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
I would say a solid B+. He has great support and facilities, plus an acceptable conference. He just has to execute and he has to an acceptable level.

I could not give him an A unless I thought Butler / _avier were just lucky, which is not the case. 1 NCAA win in his time here, and I have to wonder if we win that game if not for a couple of early 3's that scared WV out of their zone. But win we did.
I'm surprised you gave him a B considering your posts on the other thread listing his many stupid decisions which cost us an NCAA bid last year.
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  #7  
Old 10-01-2010, 09:24 PM
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B+

The only reason he doesn't get an A is due to our A-10 play.

Last edited by anthonycharles; 10-01-2010 at 09:29 PM..
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  #8  
Old 10-02-2010, 12:12 AM
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I have said this for years,

A++++ recruiter

C (at best) bench coach

evens out to about a b
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  #9  
Old 10-02-2010, 12:35 AM
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it has to be an A. simply because we have the horses. chris johnson = brian roberts (diamond in the rough). + 2 stars staten/wright. the quality of our transfers is also increasing (parker/dillard). not to mention the array of quality roll players and specialists. oh did i mention not many teams in the nation are more athletic?

i know we have only one ncaa tournament win and two appearances, but he did win an NIT and compete in others. this team is guaranteed to be in or around the top25 year in and year out. let's not forget he had us at #14 in the nation and rolling. that season was going to be magical and disaster struck.

he is one of the most sought after coaches in the nation. he has brought this university back into the discussion nationally. A all day.

his system will work now that he is getting all the recruits he wants and this program will be taken seriously as long as he is here.
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  #10  
Old 10-02-2010, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
BG could be graded in several areas.

Recruiting --> A much higher caliber talent than his two predecessors
Performance against BCS schools --> A+
A10 league performance --> B- some disappointments
Representing the University --> A honors tradition, education and graduation
I agree with all this except a C- for his A10 and A10 tournament performance both have been a bit less than mediocre.

Overall grade B
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  #11  
Old 10-02-2010, 04:58 AM
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A-

I was one of the folks a couple of years ago who said Gregory needed to show us more than athletic recruits. While I continue to be frustrated by our February swoons in conference, you can't deny that he has built an exciting team and instilled a championship mindset in this program. The demolition of four well regarded BCS programs in last year's NIT solidified in my mind that BG has elevated this program beyond where it was under OP.
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Would the person who gave BG a C please be man (or woman) enough to explain your reasoning.
I hate it when people quote themselves, but this really irritates me.

I would love to see a response from any of the three of you (so far- as of 8 AM Saturday October 2nd) with the reasoning as to why you gave BG a C. Send it to me in a PM if you like. What am I missing? What do you expect?

My hunch is all three live within the I-275 loop?????
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  #13  
Old 10-02-2010, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I'm surprised you gave him a B considering your posts on the other thread listing his many stupid decisions which cost us an NCAA bid last year.
Really, you and UD62 thought I would give him an A?

Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
. . . but I would answer your question that yes, BG had a crappy year (NOTE: DID NOT SAY HE'S A CRAPPY COACH), not reacting well to the pressure of expectations and trying to over-control game situations. Until the NIT.
Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
There's a difference between "BG his terrible, fire him and burn his house down" and "BG had a bad game, I'm disappointed." Or even a bad season. I recognize that bad decisions compound based on human nature / stubborness / relationships. I can be disappointed and still want him to be my head coach this year.
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:46 AM
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I said "A". I considered a "B", because we can do better in conference play. But then I considered where we have been, and how long it takes to move the needle of public opinion about a program.

The win percentage by coach chart at the bottom of this page says a lot to me. BG is getting up into Donoher type numbers.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/dayton/coaches

And UD has the type of program where improvement of national perception moves slowly. You have to have a very sustained track record of league and NCAA success to stick in the national public consciousness. To me, it feels like he has us at a point where it feels like we are 50-50 in getting in the NCAA tournament or getting in the NIT and kicking butt there. That is a stage of program development that you can't just bypass. We are going to have to be there for some time and do well in the NCAA opportunities in order to impact the thinking of our program on a national level. IMO, getting to the 2nd round 3 years in a row is better for our rep than the sweet 16 once every 3 years. People look for consistancy in the NCAA tournament. But even getting to that point takes a little luck, IMO. It's like playing poker. If I play the percentages well all the time, the success will come. But I cannot predict exactly when I will win 3 hands in a row. I feel like BG runs a very sound program, and now that he has built it to a certain point, we are playing the percentages well.

I think getting to the NCAA tournament 4-5 times every decade is very acheivable for UD. If you look at the history of the best teams in the A10, that is what they typically have done during periods of domination. Being better than that can obviously be done (X is example), but that can only be done by moving through stages of program development and having some good long-term fortune. X is like the poker player who is the table tall-stacks now. They have the clout working for them.

Honestly, I am skeptical that you can sustain 2 elite teams like that in the A10. If we want to acheive that tip-top success, you have to knock X off the peak. Every year, one of us is going to steal some of the national perception mojo from the other. That extra mojo is what gets you a terrific seed in the NCAA tournament and allows you to have a dominating long-term presence in the NCAA tournament. There have been periods where the A10 had two very successful teams simultaneously, but that tends to lock-out most other teams from much post season participation. There has only been so much mojo to go around. League perceptions change even slower than team pereceptions.

Last edited by Fudd; 10-02-2010 at 12:57 PM..
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:07 PM
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Would not trade BG for ANY other coach

B+ with substandard League record and our inability to recruit, or develop, multiple shooters as the biggest deficiency. Has he solved that issue this year? I think so but how much can you expect from true freshmen?

But I think his grade has increased every two years, and that trend continues. Gregory is on a nice steady upward curve.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
I said "A". I considered a "B", because we can do better in conference play. But then I considered where we have been, and how long it takes to move the needle of public opinion about a program.

The win percentage by coach chart at the bottom of this page says a lot to me. BG is getting up into Donoher type numbers.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/dayton/coaches

And UD has the type of program where improvement of national perception moves slowly. You have to have a very sustained track record of league and NCAA success to stick in the national public consciousness. To me, it feels like he has us at a point where it feels like we are 50-50 in getting in the NCAA tournament or getting in the NIT and kicking butt there. That is a stage of program development that you can't just bypass. We are going to have to be there for some time and do well in the NCAA opportunities in order to impact the thinking of our program on a national level. IMO, getting to the 2nd round 3 years in a row is better for our rep than the sweet 16 once every 3 years. People look for consistancy in the NCAA tournament. But even getting to that point takes a little luck, IMO. It's like playing poker. If I play the percentages well all the time, the success will come. But I cannot predict exactly when I will win 3 hands in a row. I feel like BG runs a very sound program, and now that he has built it to a certain point, we are playing the percentages well.

I think getting to the NCAA tournament 4-5 times every decade is very acheivable for UD. If you look at the history of the best teams in the A10, that is what they typically have done during periods of domination. Being better than that can obviously be done (X is example), but that can only be done by moving through stages of program development and having some good long-term fortune. X is like the poker player who is the table tall-stacks now. They have the clout working for them.

Honestly, I am skeptical that you can sustain 2 elite teams like that in the A10. If we want to acheive that tip-top success, you have to knock X off the peak. Every year, one of us is going to steal some of the national perception mojo from the other. That extra mojo is what gets you a terrific seed in the NCAA tournament and allows you to have a dominating long-term presence in the NCAA tournament.
BG: 21/11 average wins and loses MD: 17/11 average wins and loses MD did say in a DDN article that BG was the best hire for UD
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:17 PM
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I would give him an A-. From a professional standpoint, he has done everything that can be expected. He is very professional, above reproach, graduates his players, great in the community etc. For that he gets an A+.

I took into consideration what the cupboard looked like when he got here, the impact of Meechum to the progression, how he has reacted / adapted to that in his recruiting. While the jury is still out on the latest class, it sure looks like he continues to improve the talent and skillset of that talent each year. For growth and development, I'll give him an B+ to A-.

The only real ding that numbers can support on him is overall results. Our league records have not been what they should be. We have tended to fade down the stretch. Sometimes there were injuries and other factors, other times not. While there is more to performance then wins and losses, I give him a B here leading to the overall A-.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:39 PM
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Overall grade of a B
Nonconference games A
conference games C
Just basing it past results.
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:40 PM
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I gave him a B. He's done excellent against non-conference opponents, but mediocre at best in conference. I don't know how you can give him an A when he hasn't won conference championships, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 10-02-2010, 06:43 PM
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I agree with furio. I think my biggest criticism for BG is that i wish he leaned more on his players sometimes rather than his system. And by that i mean, play more to the strengths of his guys from time to time. A thing that has always bugged me is that he rarely has two shooters working together to do pick and rolls on the outside. It's usually a big man who picks and is left 22 feet from the hoop, or it's just a poor shooting guard setting a pick for a shooter. Why not double the threat and have two shooters? That way, the defenders have to pick their poison. Right now, all they normally have to do is just fight through the big man's pick or switch on D. And it negates the whole point of the pick and roll.

I also think he could get much better at end of half and end of game possessions. But that may be simply due to the fact that he hasn't had a real PG since he's been here.

Also, I can't tell if it's just his players who fail to do this or if it's him, but we rarely exploit mismatches. If we have a big size advantage, or speed advantage in a certain matchup, we rarely play to it more than once. I wish we'd take advantage of things until the other team can stop it. Sometimes, it looks like neither the coaches nor the players are seeing the potential mismatch out there, and that can be frustrating.

His biggest challenge will be learning how to beat the coaches that know him and his team the best. Namely the A10. He hasn't been doing that well enough to earn an A. I like the guy, his passion, how he represents the university, how he beats the BCS schools most of the time, and the kids that he's brought in. But until he starts being consistently in the top of the A10 and getting us to the dance, he's a very solid B in my book.
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:04 PM
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If Brian Gregory was coach at a powerhouse school like UNC or Duke, then I would give him a D based on the record and results. It would be completely different and it is hard to say what the team would be like if he was coach there. He probably would be canned from there.

However, he is coaching at Dayton and is doing a pretty decent job for the type of basketball school Dayton is. His winning percentage is 1 of the better coaches in the history of Dayton basketball.

During the 08-09 season, I think Dayton had the second most wins in school history and an undefeated record at home. He helped coach Dayton to the second round of the NCAA tournament, for the first time in almost twenty years.

He has a great record against BCS teams. I don't know if BCS coaches just get arrogant or what it is, but he has done an excellent job and most recently defeated all those BCS schools, including UNC for a NIT championship.

The 1 weakness is doing mediocre in conference play. In 3 of the last 4 seasons, Dayton has gone 8-8 in conference play. In 2 of those 3 seasons, it was very critical and hurt Dayton's chances for a NCAA bid. The conference foes must just have a better game plan or something. He also needs to win a few conference or tournament championships.

If he can fix that 1 weakness in the near future, I would give him an A grade.

My overall grade for Coach Brian Gregory is a grade of B.
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:20 PM
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A=Recruiter
B=Overall A 10 play
C-= overall A10 road play
A+=results versus the BCS
A=representation of UD

Overall grade B.

I agree with some of what has been posted regarding BG. I have problems with some of his issues, but I still think he represents UD well and gives us a pretty good shot at future success. With that said, the talent everyone wanted is here. All of the seasons past led to the "wait till next year" theme. Well, this is the culmination of "next years". It is time to put the C and B aspects of UD hoops to bed and make them closer to the A category. If not, then the real assessment of BG's report card will have some red marks on it.

Giving him an A says there isn't much room for improvement. There is plenty of room for improvement. Ending mediocre A-10 finishes with the expectations that are out there could possibly put him over the hump. A-10 wins fix non-NCAA appearances.
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Old 10-02-2010, 09:55 PM
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I gave him a 'C'...here's why:

I don't understand those who are calling out the people who are giving BG a 'C' on the poll as it seems quite clear that the only unreasonable grade you could give him is an 'A'. As Shocka said, an 'A' means there's no room for improvement and with God as my witness, I sure as heck hope that our Dayton Flyers aren't locked into the NIT for eternity.

As for my 'C':

Our non conference schedule is designed for wins, so I don't think it's fair to give BG an 'A' for beating Prairie View and Eastern Kentucky for no other reason that he's supposed to beat them. And with 11 or 12 of our first 14 games against such competition, BG's winning % as head coach better be high. Face it, I don't pay $1000+ per season to watch us beat Alabama A&M, and from the regular comments on this site when the non-con schedule is announced, I'm not alone with that feeling. Quite honestly, I pay to see us beat _avier, St. Joe's, Temple and the other big boys in the A10, which hasn't happened often enough. To me what truly matters is (1) Conference record and (2) NCAA wins and it's those games that I base my grade.

BG's A10 record is abysmal considering our resources, facilities, equipment, tradition etc... There is no good reason why we should ever finish outside the top 4 of the A10. None. Ever. Our A10 road record under BG stinks....and I only use that term because the filters on this site won't let me use more accurate and descriptive language. And for that reason - mediocre A10 success over an extended period of time - I give BG a C-.

As for NCAA wins, we've had one. I'll admit that it was a great and unexpected win against the 2nd biggest jerk in NCAA hoops (Huggins #2, Calipari #1), but it's only happened once. Nobody deserves and 'A' because the aced one exam just as nobody makes the HOF by hitting 50 homers once. Someone earns an 'A' because they consistently overachieve and outperform their piers over a reasonable period of time. In the classroom, that would be over a semester. In sports it's over a decade. BG has had success, but he hasn't had enough of it over a long enough time so, again, I give him a C-.

Intangibles are also important, so I'll give him credit where it is due. He has beaten some 'good' teams on neutral courts....2010 NIT games, Maui Classic, Marquette, stomped Pitt at home....but he's also been embarrassed at Pitt and UNC. He's also 0-fer at _avier, which is a difficult place to play. For those efforts, I give BG a 'B'.

Put it all together and he's earned a 'C'.

To earn a 'B' from me, he needs to win both the A10 regular season/post season and get us to a Sweet 16 or beyond. To earn an 'A', he's got to do it again...and again....and again.

As a person, father figure and representative of our fine University, there's nobody I'd rather see than BG, so for that, he gets an 'A++'.
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2010, 10:35 PM
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Rollo, I am curious how you would grade Oliver Purnell and Don Donoher in your system.
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:33 PM
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A C from Rollo

he must be feeling kind, I thought it would be a D
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Old 10-03-2010, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
BG's A10 record is abysmal considering our resources, facilities, equipment, tradition etc... There is no good reason why we should ever finish outside the top 4 of the A10. None. Ever. Our A10 road record under BG stinks....and I only use that term because the filters on this site won't let me use more accurate and descriptive language. And for that reason - mediocre A10 success over an extended period of time - I give BG a C-.
This to me is the important paragraph. I've said this over and over and over. There is no reason, NONE, why UD should not finish in the Top 4 year in and year out in the A10. I'm not saying BG has to win 6 straight conf titles or anything like that...win one every so often, but there's no excuse for only finishing in the Top 4 I think in 2/7 years. We brag about our facilities, fan support, money, history, ect, but seems like we always are fighting for 5th or 6th place in the A10, or worse.
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Old 10-03-2010, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
Rollo, I am curious how you would grade Oliver Purnell and Don Donoher in your system.
Using his proposed system there wouldn't have been a B for the last 40 years. In 74 and 84 sweet sixteen and elite eight finishes came when UD was not in a conference but the regular seasons in those 2 years where not great and UD barely made the tournament so it is unlikely they would have met the criteria if they were in a conference at the time.
The last time UD would have earned a B or an A would have been the 60's.
So after his first 7 years DD would be a C at best and OP would be a C at best under his system.
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Old 10-03-2010, 12:13 PM
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Human nature

It's human nature to dwell on the negative. Of the over 70 responses to the poll only 6 are a C, that's less than 9%. Yet we, including myself, spend our time reasoning with or trying to explain the few who see the glass as less than half full. It's the same in life in general. Let 99 senators vote one way and one vote the other and guess who gets the attention. So a few see BG as an ordinary coach, that's their right. The fact that the vast majority see it differently is what's important.
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  #29  
Old 10-03-2010, 01:04 PM
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All Hail Don Donoher!!!

Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
Rollo, I am curious how you would grade Oliver Purnell and Don Donoher in your system.
Furio obviously is void of rational thought this morning, so despite his illinformed comments, I'll attempt to answer Fudd's intelligent inquiry with equal aplomb.

Donoher: Inherited a national power and for 20 years kept the UD program in the national spotlight. Near the end of his era college basketball changed, and UD's Athletic Dept didn't react fast enough. I can't solely blame Donoher for the late 80's failures as the reasons for it were in many ways institutional, although his reluctance to recruit outside a 50 mile radius of Dayton was, to a degree, under his control. Donoher will always be a legend at UD, and for that he gets high marks!

Grade: A-

Purnell: Wow....where to start? He was handed a pile of manure and told to serve filet mignon...and darn near pulled it off. His teams, IMHO, typically overachieved. Not every year, but more often than I thought possible with the talent he had on the bench. The promise shown early in OP's tenure reignited the fan base that had slowly disintegrated under O'Brien. I loved his coaching style and poise. Under OP I rarely thought we'd be outsmarted or unprepared. Had he only landed another stud or two (Trotwood's Andre' Hutson) we really would have been tough to beat for a three or four year period. But, alas, OP moved on to greener pastures having left UD in much better shape than when he showed up, but lacking in depth due to two subpar recruiting classes.

For his ability to resurrect the program, I give OP a strong 'B'.

And for the record, I love BG and want him to continue coaching here for as long as he'll have us...but as I've clearly stated, I'm not convinced he's the greatest coach on the planet, but do believe with all my heart that he can move this program forward. How far we go will be limited to his ability to outsmart and outplay A10 opponents for 40 minutes (as opposed to 36), especially on the road. Because, quite honestly, does any A10 team fear us in their home gym?
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  #30  
Old 10-03-2010, 01:23 PM
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If I went stricly upon results on the court at this time I can understand Rollo's grading scale. I improved my grade because we now have three very good point guards on the team which is huge for the next several years. The talent level appears to still be improving which will make playing on the road much easier.

Concerning don donoher, what a great coach. But, if donoher had hired a great recruiting assistant he might still be at UD. Donoher was a tremendous coach who except for his last season got the most out of his talent. Imagine if he had had someone to bring him top 100 recruits every year.

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  #31  
Old 10-03-2010, 01:56 PM
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Bravo rollo on both of those posts. Fair but firm costructive criticism of where the program was, is and could be. Very well done sir.
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  #32  
Old 10-03-2010, 02:21 PM
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My grading is different than Rollo's in two areas:
1) Rollo is weighting the A10 performance very heavily in the evaluation and downplays the out of conference games. I agree that the A10 performance has been below expectations, but I disagree on the non-conference.

Most upper Tier D1 schools play cupcakes. North Carolina and Ohio State shared a common beat up opponent last year. However, there have been some powerful non conference wins (especially against Big East schools) in that mix that I consider. Pitt, Marquette, UC, Louisville are all powerful schools that lost to Dayton. And there are more. BG deserves more credit for those wins.

2) Road winning percentage. If you look at Donoher and Purnell's road records they are very similar if not worse than BG. Digger Phelps slammed Donoher at a roast by claiming that 399 of his 400 wins came at home. While I detest Digger, this humor had a bit of truth to it. UD has always been weak on the road! BTW. Creighton, another university like Dayton in terms of NCAA power and prestige has the exact same problem. Their road record is much worse than Dayton's!
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2010, 03:26 PM
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I'm interested in hearing from the 'A' givers as to how they graded and why they think the results from the past 5-7 years is the best we can expect.
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Old 10-03-2010, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
My grading is different than Rollo's in two areas:
1) Rollo is weighting the A10 performance very heavily in the evaluation and downplays the out of conference games. I agree that the A10 performance has been below expectations, but I disagree on the non-conference.
The A10 performance should be heavily weighted and definitely more than OOC. A handful of those OOC wins that we all thought were going to be on the "key wins" list come selection Sunday weren't due to mediocre finishes by those OOC BCS schools. Considering that, the conference schedules of any DI program striving to make it to the NCAA's every year depend on well played conference games. Had BCS schools played stronger in their conference, it would have looked better for us. We can't beat a couple BCS schools a year and think that those wins are going to set us apart from the pack and place the program where it needs to be. We have to treat the A10 with a higher amount of respect, because the outsiders don't. That means if we aren't at the top, there is a good chance we may struggle to get in. We can loose to the BCS schools in the non-con, win the A10, and we get in. That makes most happy.
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  #35  
Old 10-03-2010, 03:57 PM
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I'm grading on the curve with respect to what has been accomplished at UD in the last 35 years.

Donoher had a great run of 5 years winning over 60 percent of his games (1980-1984)

Purnell had 4 really good years of over 60 percent winning percentage (1999-2002) in his 9 year career at UD.

Gregory now has his > 60% 4-year and counting run (2006-2009)

And during Gregory's 4 year run, I think he has recruited well enough to sustain that run for at least a few more years, with no end in sight, IMO.

I am not grading against a hypothetical perfect performance. If you did that where would you draw the line on the ceiling of the program? Heck, forget X, I think we can get to where Butler was last year with enough program building and some good fortune. I am grading on how I would look at performance as an athletic director who hired Gregory. What performance can I reasonably expect from a head coach hire at UD given the CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE PROGRAM when they were hired? I think if I were to give Purnell a "B" on his 9 years at UD, I would feel compelled to give Gregory at least a "B" as well. I think Gregory's performance given the circumstances of the program have been equal, if not slightly better than Purnell's. And that is not a slam on Purnell, in my eyes.

Purnell had farther to go in his rebuild than Gregory did when he had to replenish the talent below the Waleskowski class. But because Gregory's rebuild/replenishment job has not been as big, he has gotten us back to NIT/NCAA berths faster and gone a little farther. And he does get some extra points for winning more once he gets to those tournaments. Purnell did better in league play by the end of his 9 years, but I think league play is overweighted in Rollo's system of analysis. NCAA/NIT success ought to outweigh league success.

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  #36  
Old 10-03-2010, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
but I think league play is overweighted in Rollo's system of analysis. NCAA/NIT success ought to outweigh league success.
Considering League play determines whether we make the NIT or NCAA, shouldn't it be given a higher weight?

Look at it this way...

'08-09: Success in league play led to an NCAA birth (and win)

'09-10: Failure in the league led to a bid in the NIT (Champs).

I'll take scenario (a) over (b) every year.
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Old 10-03-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Considering League play determines whether we make the NIT or NCAA, shouldn't it be given a higher weight?
I simply say no. League play is a big player in whether we make the NCAA/NIT, but not deserving of outweighing the goal itself: post-season tournament success.

That is where I have the biggest issue with your coach grading system.
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  #38  
Old 10-03-2010, 04:20 PM
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I gave BG a B. I am very surprised that he was given more A's than B's, but I don't need or want an explanation from the A givers. Kudos to Rollo for giving his reasoning, although I don't agree with the C. I do agree on his grades for Donoher and OP.

I really would have expected about 60% B's, 25% A's, and 15% C's based on overall results, particularly the A 10 tournament results.
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Old 10-03-2010, 04:46 PM
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Part of the reason you get so many "A's", IMO, is that this is a Dayton Flyer fan message board, loaded with 95% of the posters who have some level of UD pollyannaism. Just check out my pollyanna poll on the off topic forum. Yes, we are going to shade a little to the positive side. If we didn't, we would go to Wright State games wearing neutral colors and watch unemotionally while pouring over the stats. I hate to state the obvious, but we are UD fans. It's not shameful. Go to any team message board and you will observe, at minimum, a similar level of pollyannaism. The exception might be the Fordham type boards, where 10 mentally unstable "fans" practice self-flaggelation.

I am a huge fan of pollyannas. I celebrate UD pollyannas. Be a UD homer and walk tall, my friends. Give BG an "A" and then flaggelate in the direction of Norwood.

.....that and some people think BG is actually doing very well at UD................
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Old 10-03-2010, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Donoher: Inherited a national power and for 20 years kept the UD program in the national spotlight.
Just curious what grade you would give BG if he went ten years between NCAA bids like Donoher did - 1974-1984. Can you imagine the people on this board if we went five years without a bid, let alone ten. I love Donoher, but you would probably give BG an F if he went ten years between NCAA bids (if he didn't get fired first). And, as you said, Donoher inherited a national power. So it appears you are holding BG to a higher standard than you are DD.
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  #41  
Old 10-03-2010, 05:59 PM
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I would give BG an B+. I think the program overall is in much better shape than when he arrived (expectations, recruits, post season wins) - but needs better A10 performance

I would give OP a C at best; he was very good during the regular season but the last two of his nine seasons ended with a 2002 home loss to Detroit in the NIT and in 2003, being the only top 4 seed to lose in the first round of the NCAA tournament. Also, his last few recruiting classes were worthy of conferences that send teams to the play-in games, not the A10.
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  #42  
Old 10-03-2010, 06:51 PM
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I give BG a B+. I am from the 64-68 Donoher era and I thought he was an excellent floor coach before and during the game. I don't think he ever got outcoached by the coaches from Chicago Loyola, DePaul, Louisville, Western Kentucky, Marquette etc. Floor coaching during the game is where I think BG has and will improve. I still feel that he get's outcoached. I also feel that he does not use the inside big men enough to take the pressure off his outside shooters. Maybe he just has not had the athletic big man yet to work with. Altho Donoher was an assistant, he moved into the same program and system. BG became a head coach after being an assistant and you never know what you are going to get when you hire an assistant. No track record. That's a tough thing for any new coach to do at a school, like UD, which does have an excellent basketball history and reputation. Anywhere I go, the Dayton Flyers are known. Plus it was all new for him so it takes a while to really get your feet on the ground, understand yourself etc. I give him an A+ for passion, revival of the program, recruiting, creating expectations, concern for his players etc. Look, he has all of us looking forward to the next basketball season. I think he is improving in all ways and UD has a bright future with him particularly if his energetic recruiting continues. The recruting grind, not the coaching and games, is what burns out these coaches.
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Old 10-03-2010, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
So it appears you are holding BG to a higher standard than you are DD.

When BG coaches in an NCAA Finals, or an Elite 8, or surpasses Donoher in career wins at UD, I'll consider holding him to a similar standard. But considering BG was given a strong program as well as everything humanly possible in terms of resources, finances and infrastructure - things Donoher never received - and has this team in a holding pattern, yeah, I guess you cold say I'm holding him to a higher standard. BG's had everything handed to him and can't finish in the A10's top 4 with any consistency. Why should I hold BG to the same standard as Donoher? Or better yet, why would you?
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Old 10-03-2010, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
I would give BG an B+. I think the program overall is in much better shape than when he arrived (expectations, recruits, post season wins) - but needs better A10 performance

I would give OP a C at best; he was very good during the regular season but the last two of his nine seasons ended with a 2002 home loss to Detroit in the NIT and in 2003, being the only top 4 seed to lose in the first round of the NCAA tournament. Also, his last few recruiting classes were worthy of conferences that send teams to the play-in games, not the A10.
It was actually even worse than that in OP's last three years. He lost to Detroit at home in the 2001 NIT, lost to Tennessee Tech at home in the 2002 NIT, and then lost to a 13 seed as a four seed in the NCAA. He never won an NCAA game and lost to two lesser teams at home in the NIT. He did a great job resurrecting the program, but those last three losses were pretty sad. Can you imagine the response on this board if BG had lost at home to Cleveland State and Illinois State in the NIT.

OP went to 2 NCAA's and 3 NIT's in 9 seasons. BG has 2 NCAA's (with an NCAA win) and 2 NIT's (including an NIT Championship) in 7 seasons. OP had to rebuild from almost nothing, but BG had to rebuild also after a couple of very poor OP recruiting classes. I don't see how you can give OP an entire letter grade better than BG based on their records, and based on OP's failures in his last three post-season appearances. I gave BG a B+ for his record and for the continuous upgrading of talent.
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Old 10-03-2010, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
When BG coaches in an NCAA Finals, or an Elite 8, or surpasses Donoher in career wins at UD, I'll consider holding him to a similar standard. But considering BG was given a strong program as well as everything humanly possible in terms of resources, finances and infrastructure - things Donoher never received - and has this team in a holding pattern, yeah, I guess you cold say I'm holding him to a higher standard. BG's had everything handed to him and can't finish in the A10's top 4 with any consistency. Why should I hold BG to the same standard as Donoher? Or better yet, why would you?
So I see you ignored the ten years between NCAA's.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
But considering BG was given a strong program as well as everything humanly possible in terms of resources, finances and infrastructure - things Donoher never received - and has this team in a holding pattern, yeah, I guess you cold say I'm holding him to a higher standard. BG's had everything handed to him and can't finish in the A10's top 4 with any consistency. Why should I hold BG to the same standard as Donoher? Or better yet, why would you?
Donoher was given a much stronger program. That is not even close. Blackburn built UD into a national power. (Blackburn only had 4 seasons below a 60% winning percentage, and two of those were his first two years. And he won 71% of his career games!) Five seasons into Don Donoher's tenure (1969), UD built UD Arena, giving Donoher unheard of infrastructure at the time. I can't see how you can make the argument that Donoher was denied the type of program prestige or resources that BG has been afforded. That is crazy talk.

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Old 10-03-2010, 08:53 PM
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Private plane vs charter.....Donoher Center vs. PAC weight room, unlimited travel budget for recruiting vs. loaner car...5 assistant coaches + bball operations mgr vs 3 or 4 to do everything....seat licenses vs tight budget...32 game regular seasons schedule vs 27-ish...

I see very few similarities in resources.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:01 PM
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To each his own...

Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
So I see you ignored the ten years between NCAA's.
I blocked out a blip in Donoher's resume at a time when very few independents got NCAA bids....you ignored the NCAA Finals, 3OT loss to UCLA (eventual champs) and the Elite 8 (lost to GTown, eventual Champs) and 2 pt NCAA loss to Villanova (at home, eventual champs) as well as a couple NIT's and some former NBA players....

Guess you haven't gotten over that 2010 NIT Championship hangover yet.

Interesting what each of us remember about people, huh?
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Private plane vs charter.....Donoher Center vs. PAC weight room, unlimited travel budget for recruiting vs. loaner car...5 assistant coaches + bball operations mgr vs 3 or 4 to do everything....seat licenses vs tight budget...32 game regular seasons schedule vs 27-ish...

I see very few similarities in resources.
One thing you are leaving out is that the teams UD was competing against at that time had similar resources, except UD probably had a better arena than most of them. The entire landscape of college basketball has changed. Of course BG has more resources than DD had, but so do the teams BG is competing against.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
One thing you are leaving out is that the teams UD was competing against at that time had similar resources, except UD probably had a better arena than most of them. The entire landscape of college basketball has changed. Of course BG has more resources than DD had, but so do the teams BG is competing against.
What teams in the A 10 do you speak of? Please also include other non BCS teams if you like.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:18 PM
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
except UD probably had a better arena than most of them.
If only the 'Arena' mattered D1 basketball would have about 100 teams, the A10 would be the A4 and _avier would be DIII.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:34 PM
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I gave BG an A because I think he's building the program the right way, and has us quite clearly moving in the right direction. Of course I was not pleased with our finish in the A-10 last year, or three years ago, and I agree that UD ought to be in the top 4 of the A-10 year in and year out. We ought to be making the NCAA on a semi-regular basis and winning games there. But the fact is that we've won one NCAA game under BG, and an NIT crown, with a pretty decent showing in the other NIT. It's hard to say too much about BG's first year - we did win the Maui Invitational against the worst field in its history (to be fair, OSU and Villanova were in the tourney that year, but both had down years that year). We did come pretty close to winning an NCAA game his first year, but that and $2 will get you a cup of coffee. We coulda, woulda, shoulda beaten SLU and URI this past year, but we didn't.

However, I think that win-loss record is not the only measure by which a coach should be judged. I have said this elsewhere, but I think BG is honestly not all that concerned with the outcome of any individual game. He is building a program the way he believes it should be built in order to sustain long-term success. If that means starting Jimmy Binnie over Charles Little, then that is what he'll do. Nobody I know would argue that Binnie was a better matchup against say, Derrick Brown than Little (bad comparison b/c Little was hurt for the "traffic cone" game). However, if Binnie practiced and competed the way BG wanted, and Little didn't, then Binnie gets the start. I can understand those who would disagree with that philosophy, but that's the way BG wanted to build the program. People may not like the weave, but it works when it is executed crisply, with the proper personnel. Marcus invariably got an open foul line jumper when that offense was run properly, for example.

So look, results are what they are. We have not won plenty of games that we should have, especially last year, and again, three years ago (I'll keep arguing that Wright's injury was devastating, and while I understand those who say we should have won those games anyway, I'll respectfully disagree). I get that every program has injuries and transfers, but we've had some bad luck in both of those areas - I won't rehash everything, but it sure would have been nice to have a solid, if unspectacular Stephen Thomas last year, for example. Long term, I think Josh Parker is a significant upgrade, and I'll take Dillard over Jesse Berry any day of the week. So perhaps our luck is changing.

Remember that Sandoval broke his foot, rushed back, and probably was not healthy/in shape when he did come back. Wright's injury sucked. Little's injury was one we could not afford. Lowery's injury was devastating as well, and he certainly was not 100% last year.

Look, I'm not making excuses for BG, but plenty of things beyond his control have in fact contributed in a negative way to our won-loss record. I think his in-game coaching has more to do with stubbornly running a system. You can certainly argue that he ought to be making more adjustments, but I think he feels the way he is coaching is best for the long run. There's nobody who works harder than he does, and he is a stand-up guy who represents the university as well as one could. I liked OP, but he was aloof, and didn't really seem to care much about our tradition.

So I think BG is doing things the right way, and while the results are not perfect, I don't think that's what you need in order to garner an A. An A to me does not mean there is no room for improvement. I expect the improvement to come over the next several years, as this program takes off.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:46 PM
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Nice post Thirt - I totally respect your opinion. I guess that is the difference. You won't get 5 people attacking you busting chairs over your head.
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Private plane vs charter.....Donoher Center vs. PAC weight room, unlimited travel budget for recruiting vs. loaner car...5 assistant coaches + bball operations mgr vs 3 or 4 to do everything....seat licenses vs tight budget...32 game regular seasons schedule vs 27-ish...

I see very few similarities in resources.
No one had those things in the 60's and now many teams have them so this argument is too much apples to oranges for me. I look at the fact that Donoher was handed the reins to a program that was ranked by Sagarin as the #7 for the decade of the 50's. In the 90's #7 was Indiana, in the 2000's #7 was Arizona. UD was the equivalent of a top school in a top conference. The program BG got was in fine shape but was not even remotely like the program Donoher inherited.

To give Don credit he maintained that high level for another ten years we were #7 for the 60's and dropped out of the top 40 for the '70s

Also Rollo I am not piling on. I think your reasoning for the grade of C is valid and you defend it well. I just wanted to pick this one nit with you.

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf

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Old 10-03-2010, 11:15 PM
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I would give Fudd's avatar an A+. On a serious side I would give Brian Gregory an A-. I think he is the best recruiter UD has had in a long time as it seems the incoming recruits are getting better every year. As the recruits get better I believe Gregory will become a better bench coach. As we get some shooters at the point guard and the shooting guard positions I feel the A-10 coaches won't be able to double and triple team our best player as they have in the past and that will translate into better conference records.

Staten and Parker are the 2 best point guards we have had coming in since Nigele Knight. They will make Gregory look like a better coach as will the other 3 incoming freshman. I can't wait for the season to start!
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:17 AM
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I would like to throw this into the debate. Back in the '60's Blackburn and Donoher had their way with scheduling and there weren't near the numbers of competitive teams in the NCAA as there are now. As an independent in those days, a good program could schedule its way into 20 wins easier with notoriety that goes with it. The Dunkel Index was a quasi
strength indicator.

There was no RPI to gage the strength of those you scheduled. The football schools had not discovered basketball. Recruiting rules were not as stringent.

I think BG and UD have a tougher road to navigate for equivalent success.

Our fans back then would gladly pack the Fieldhouse to watch us thump Gustavus Adolphus and Baldwin Wallace. When you saw an opponent that carried, say, a 9-2 record, there weren't six index references to prove that they weren't really a worthy opponent.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
So I see you ignored the ten years between NCAA's.
You are comparing apples to oranges. BG has always coached in an era where the NCAA tournament consisted of 64/65 teams a year.

In 1974, the NCAA tournament consisted of 32 teams and was the first year that more than 1 team could come from the same conference. The field was expanded to 40 in 1979. It was expanded to 48 in 1980 and 53 in 1983. It was not expanded to 64 teams until 1985.

http://www.articlesbase.com/basketba...ent-17924.html

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Old 10-04-2010, 07:41 AM
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Because the poll didn't have plus and minus grades, I went with B. It's probably closer to B+ for me. The thing that bothers me is the fact that alot of people seem to be grading BG on one of two things: 1) projected results down the line, and 2) the talent that has come through during his tenure. All of that is fine, and I do understand that recruting is a big part of college sports. BUT, if you're grading on his "COACHING," I don't think it's possible to give him an A. He underachieved with the 09-10 team, and you could at least make the argument that the 07-08 team also underachieved. Yes, I get that Chris Wright got hurt, which is why he's probably taken off the hook for that one. I guess the one aspect that does bother me is our lack of finishing close games in the big spotlight prior to the NIT

I think he's a pretty good coach who's still learning and improving, and I think with the talent currently in the program, he'll have a chance to develop and cultivate that talent and take this program to another level. But, until that happens, he's still one level below elite for a top tier, non-BCS team.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Donoher: Inherited a national power and for 20 years kept the UD program in the national spotlight. Near the end of his era college basketball changed, and UD's Athletic Dept didn't react fast enough. I can't solely blame Donoher for the late 80's failures as the reasons for it were in many ways institutional, although his reluctance to recruit outside a 50 mile radius of Dayton was, to a degree, under his control.
Recruiting during Donoher's era compared to Gregory's era is not even comparing apples to oranges. The technology difference alone is boggling. In today's recruiting world Gregory has access to the internet. That supplies him with countless recruiting sites that give him lists of players. He has access to video of most of these kids online on these sites, on youtube, or on these kids own private websites. He can directly contact them through Twitter, facebook, e-mail etc. He can go to large AAU events every summer to see large groups of elite players all at once to evaluate them. When he does leave campus he can fly to events all over the country.

In Donoher's era, almost everyone recruited locally for the most part. You recruited locally because you were able to travel by car to see local recruits play high school games during the season in between your college games. You didn't get to see them play at AAU tournaments because there weren't any back then. You couldn't watch a film of them playing online because there was no internet. You couldn't pop in a DVD or VCR tape of them playing because those devices weren't around back then either. At best some high schools had old 8mm tape of games they would send out to colleges and they only had 1 copy of each game tape so one college at a time could borrow it from the high school to view it. You didn't get a list of recruits from a recruiting website or AAU event. You found out about a recruit from a coaching contact with a high school coach that called you up and told you about a kid.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:00 AM
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The teams UD played regularly back in the 70's and 80's absolutely did not only recruit locally. Notre Dame, Marquette, DePaul, Cincinnati all had regional if not national recruiting policies.

Back then I dated a certain someone who's dad was a super bigshot who shared a little too much information with me sometimes. This certain someone was mostly tight lipped, but occasionally put down his cigar and vented...even asking my opinion sometimes. In a nutshell, it was UD's desire to expand the recruiting base...it was Donoher's desire to keep it close because he HATED recruiting.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Big D View Post
In 1974, the NCAA tournament consisted of 32 teams and was the first year that more than 1 team could come from the same conference. http://www.articlesbase.com/basketba...ent-17924.html
For the independents of the time, the one team per conference was an advantage. There were multiple spots going to independents every year, and teams ranked in the top 5 of the country were being left out (Maryland losing to NC State in ACC finals).

You almost can't compare the eras. Almost everything is different, from exposure to resources, to the SEC embracing basketball.

Donoher was handed a top 10 program, and was largely able to maintain the standard for a little less than a decade. As the landscape changed, the administration and Mick did not adapat and the next 10 years success was far more spotty. Nearing the end of that period, UD was almost on a nonentity on the national landscape. That is changing - very slowly.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Big D View Post
Recruiting during Donoher's era compared to Gregory's era is not even comparing apples to oranges. The technology difference alone is boggling. In today's recruiting world Gregory has access to the internet. That supplies him with countless recruiting sites that give him lists of players. He has access to video of most of these kids online on these sites, on youtube, or on these kids own private websites. He can directly contact them through Twitter, facebook, e-mail etc. He can go to large AAU events every summer to see large groups of elite players all at once to evaluate them. When he does leave campus he can fly to events all over the country.

In Donoher's era, almost everyone recruited locally for the most part. You recruited locally because you were able to travel by car to see local recruits play high school games during the season in between your college games. You didn't get to see them play at AAU tournaments because there weren't any back then. You couldn't watch a film of them playing online because there was no internet. You couldn't pop in a DVD or VCR tape of them playing because those devices weren't around back then either. At best some high schools had old 8mm tape of games they would send out to colleges and they only had 1 copy of each game tape so one college at a time could borrow it from the high school to view it. You didn't get a list of recruits from a recruiting website or AAU event. You found out about a recruit from a coaching contact with a high school coach that called you up and told you about a kid.
I agree with all of that, which in many ways puts significantly more pressure on today's recruiting job for the coach. He doesn't have the OPTION of using all that technology and those AAU events, he HAS to or die. Do we really think BG enjoys Twitter? And every kid that is accessable in Chicago and Detroit for BG is matched by kids who are now accessible in southern Ohio by the whole nation of coaches.

Back in the days, Blackburn and Donoher had to recruit with their personality and persuasiveness while targeting recruits that were identified by coaching contacts, newspaper clippings, and brothers-in-law in Indiana and wherever.

I'm not saying Donoher had it easy, but his recruiting task was much less complex and relied on his personal interaction almost totally.

The attention to every detail for BG and all other head coaches is mind boggling.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
OP went to 2 NCAA's and 3 NIT's in 9 seasons. BG has 2 NCAA's (with an NCAA win) and 2 NIT's (including an NIT Championship) in 7 seasons. OP had to rebuild from almost nothing, but BG had to rebuild also after a couple of very poor OP recruiting classes. I don't see how you can give OP an entire letter grade better than BG based on their records, and based on OP's failures in his last three post-season appearances. I gave BG a B+ for his record and for the continuous upgrading of talent.
- OP built his program from Fordham-like results. He inherited Marko Pikaar, Shawn Scrutchins, and Chris Daniels. BG inherited Ramod, KW, and Monty Scott.

- OP shared an A-10 first place finish in 1998 and won the A-10 tournament in 2003. BG finished second in the A-10 in 2009 and lost in the A-10 championship in 2004.

- BG won 1 NCAA tournament game and has made the dance twice (his first was of course with the team OP left him). OP made the dance twice as well and won 0 games.

- BG won the NIT and made that tourney twice. OP had a small collection of NIT victories and made it 3 times.

I give OP a B based on his results compared to what he started with. I give BG a C for the same reason. I do not consider recruiting higher talent an advantage until the results prove that these recruits are, in fact, higher talent. It's premature to grade BG on what his recruits "should" do in the future.

While I love BG's public persona, I won't move him up a letter grade for it. Ed Schilling was quite likeable too, Jim Calhoun is not as likeable.

FWIW I am a Flyer homer, glass-half-full fan and have been deemed as such on this message board, especially during our winter meltdown last year when this board was dominated with harsh criticism from frustrated fans. I absolutely believe in BG and see great things ahead with the team and program he has in place, but as we speak today, BG has simply met expectations, not exceeded, and gets a C.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Of course BG has more resources than DD had, but so do the teams BG is competing against.
This is not true at all. Comparing UD's resources to the rest of the A-10 (minus Xavier) gives an incredible advantage to UD and BG. UD is far and away #1 in the A-10 standings in this department, but is middle of the pack in actual wins/losses standings in BG's tenure. This has to be considered when evaluating BG's success.
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:45 AM
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I gave BG a C because I knew ClaytonFlyer, longtimefan, THirt, JohnR and a few others would soil themselves if somewhere dare give BG a C...

Rollo, excellent post. Winning non-conference games are great and all and the NIT was a great finish to a bad season, but winning the A-10 and getting to the NCAA is the goal.

Great Guy, Great representation of the university, great recruiter. Love to have him as UD's coach. But he doesn't get an A for that.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
So I think BG is doing things the right way, and while the results are not perfect, I don't think that's what you need in order to garner an A. An A to me does not mean there is no room for improvement. I expect the improvement to come over the next several years, as this program takes off.
THirt - I understand where you're coming from in your post, but my question then becomes: how long do you use the same thought process to grade your coach?

Meaning, if the last 3 years repeat themselves with some highly touted recruits achieving mostly NIT appearances (even a championship), one NCAA win, a yearly appearance in national rankings, mediocre A-10 results, not making A-10 any tourney championships, beating down BCS schools yearly, having a losing road record, sustaining some important injuries, etc, are you happy with the same results in 2013? At which point do wins and losses matter?

More food for thought (but very important to consider if grading BG):

If you knew in 2006 that Chris Wright might spend 4 years at UD with one NCAA victory, would "2006 you" be satisfied?

For everyone who is grading BG on his recruiting and future expectations, how many NCAA victories/appearances do you expect from Juwan Staten in his tenure?

(PS - What a great thread, its been an incredibly dull off season)
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by PerrymanFan View Post
More food for thought (but very important to consider if grading BG):

If you knew in 2006 that Chris Wright might spend 4 years at UD with one NCAA victory, would "2006 you" be satisfied?
If you are going to ask that question of BG/Wright, you have to ask the same question of OP/Waleskowski. Were you satisfied with Waleskowski going 0-4 seasons on NCAA victories? Wright is 1-3 with one season taken out of play by a broken ankle. Would you rather have one A10 tournament championship or one NCAA victory?

There used to be posters here asking God for 1 NCAA victory before death in the OP years. That victory should be a nuclear bomb in this discussion. If OP released us from the curse of the two consecutive awful O'Brien years, BG has released us from the curse of the 25 year NCAA victory drought. That is 25 years with mainly an "A" and "B" coach according to the Rollo grading system. Now you are telling me a "C" coach broke that streak!

Right or wrong, that one victory did more than anything else to get us back on the map. I can't even think of the last A10 team to get an NCAA victory outiside of Xavier. Was it Saint Joseph's?

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Old 10-04-2010, 12:23 PM
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I won't say much this year ... but how can anyone give Brian Gregory an A? He simply has met expectations. A grade of a B is high in my mind, I would have settled for a C+ if that was available.

A coach who has never won an A-10 Regular Season Championship or even competed in the Atlantic 10 Tournament does not deserve an A. UD has the most resources in the A-10 and it is laughable to continue to see them lose @ Duquense, @ Charlotte, etc, etc when there are 5 fans in the stands.

The future looks bright, but you cannot grade on that. You have to grade on the results on the court. His "talented recruits" have not shown they are more talented than any of OP's teams. I like BG and think things are going in the right direction, but in no way, shape or form has he earned a grade of an A.

To me, an A grade is for excellence and exceeding expectations. In 7 years the Flyers have made the dance two times (one time with OP's players) and the NIT two times. They have 0 A-10 regular season crowns and 0 A-10 championships. They also collapsed mightly when they expectations were placed upon them with 6 seniors (last year).

Sean Miller, he deserved an A ... multiple tournament runs, deep, deep runs and multiple A-10 Crowns.

If you rated BG an A ... what is Sean Miller? An A+++++++++ ... it doesn't make sense!
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
I won't say much this year ... but how can anyone give Brian Gregory an A? He simply has met expectations. A grade of a B is high in my mind, I would have settled for a C+ if that was available.

A coach who has never won an A-10 Regular Season Championship or even competed in the Atlantic 10 Tournament does not deserve an A. UD has the most resources in the A-10 and it is laughable to continue to see them lose @ Duquense, @ Charlotte, etc, etc when there are 5 fans in the stands.

The future looks bright, but you cannot grade on that. You have to grade on the results on the court. His "talented recruits" have not shown they are more talented than any of OP's teams. I like BG and think things are going in the right direction, but in no way, shape or form has he earned a grade of an A.

To me, an A grade is for excellence and exceeding expectations. In 7 years the Flyers have made the dance two times (one time with OP's players) and the NIT two times. They have 0 A-10 regular season crowns and 0 A-10 championships. They also collapsed mightly when they expectations were placed upon them with 6 seniors (last year).

Sean Miller, he deserved an A ... multiple tournament runs, deep, deep runs and multiple A-10 Crowns.

If you rated BG an A ... what is Sean Miller? An A+++++++++ ... it doesn't make sense!
Dont get me started on OP and what does Miller have to do with this thread?
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlantic 10 View Post
Dont get me started on OP and what does Miller have to do with this thread?

Sean Miller is an example. He has the same time period as BG, had the same resources and produced "A" type results in his tenure.

Miller's results warrant an "A" grade. A grade worth of excellence and excelling.

BG has not had those results, he has not even come close to them. He has simply met expectations on the court resulting in a "C" grade. If C+ was available, I would have given him that because I do believe he is slightly above average.

Recruits who are athletic and can jump high are great, but you need results on the court. BG needs to seriously compete for an A-10 Crown, regular and post-season and make back to back trips to the Ncaa Tournament with wins in both to receive a B+ to A grade.
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
BG has released us from the curse of the 25 year NCAA victory drought. That is 25 years with mainly an "A" and "B" coach according to the Rollo grading system. Now you are telling me a "C" coach broke that streak!
That 'A' coach won 400+ games, took us to an NCAA Finals, and NIT Championship, 5 other NIT's, an Elite 8 and triple OT against UCLA.... I'll take the lows if some highs are sprinkled between....

That 'B' coach saved this program, took us to 3 NIT's and 2 NCAA's in his final 6 years here and consistently won on the road in the A10...we became a threat anywhere, anytime under OP's coaching.

Our current coach has taken an NIT regular and NCAA hopeful team and turned it into an....well...ummm..an NIT regular and NCAA hopeful team. Yes, he won our first NCAA game since 1990, which was an 19 year drought, but failed to build on that. Had we advanced to the Sweet 16 last season, like many of us expected in the preseason, our program would have taken a very large step forward. As it stands a very strong arguement could be made that our NIT Championship was a small step backwards from the previous season. IMHO, very little has changed since he took charge and this season, like no other, may define his tenure.
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
Sean Miller is an example. He has the same time period as BG, had the same resources and produced "A" type results in his tenure.

Miller's results warrant an "A" grade. A grade worth of excellence and excelling.

BG has not had those results, he has not even come close to them. He has simply met expectations on the court resulting in a "C" grade. If C+ was available, I would have given him that because I do believe he is slightly above average.

Recruits who are athletic and can jump high are great, but you need results on the court. BG needs to seriously compete for an A-10 Crown, regular and post-season and make back to back trips to the Ncaa Tournament with wins in both to receive a B+ to A grade.
All the X coaches were left with something, that kept the beat going for them. BG had one class and thats it from OP. Its nice when you can walk into a situation like Miller who was a asst under Thad during those years at X. You cant compare that to BG. X was set for Miller, BG had to build after year one
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Old 10-04-2010, 01:03 PM
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Ok then in year 4, 5, 6 he did it all on his own with his own recruits and took X to multiple Elite 8's and A-10 championships.

BG in year 4, 5, 6 did what? An NCAA win and an NIT Appearance ... how does that equal an A grade?

I am sorry but A is for excellence ... C is for average, the answer lies somewhere in between. C+ is the grade that defines his tenure right now.

I personally believe that if you can't even make it to the A-10 finals in 7 years with the most resources in the conference then you have not done your job. A-10 championships (regular and post) define teams and coaches.
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Old 10-04-2010, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
Ok then in year 4, 5, 6 he did it all on his own with his own recruits and took X to multiple Elite 8's and A-10 championships.

BG in year 4, 5, 6 did what? An NCAA win and an NIT Appearance ... how does that equal an A grade?

I am sorry but A is for excellence ... C is for average, the answer lies somewhere in between. C+ is the grade that defines his tenure right now.

I personally believe that if you can't even make it to the A-10 finals in 7 years with the most resources in the conference then you have not done your job. A-10 championships (regular and post) define teams and coaches.
NIT championship against some very good teams. Still the pipeline at X was in sinc. BG gets a B from me, finally with some point guards this could change;]
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Old 10-04-2010, 01:10 PM
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You mean beating Townson doesn't mean anything?

Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
if you can't even make it to the A-10 finals in 7 years with the most resources in the conference then you have not done your job. A-10 championships (regular and post) define teams and coaches.
BINGO! We have a winner!!!
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Old 10-04-2010, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
BINGO! We have a winner!!!
Didnt BG make it to the A10 finals at UD arena in his 1st year?
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Old 10-04-2010, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlantic 10 View Post
Didnt BG make it to the A10 finals at UD arena in his 1st year?
I am going by your logic with Miller ... since he already had a team in place from previous, why should it count?
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Old 10-04-2010, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
I am going by your logic with Miller ... since he already had a team in place from previous, why should it count?
If Keith and Ramod hit those foul shots at the end, BG has a A10 championship;]
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Old 10-04-2010, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlantic 10 View Post
Didnt BG make it to the A10 finals at UD arena in his 1st year?
Yes, we lost to _avier, at home, 58-49.
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Old 10-04-2010, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
If you are going to ask that question of BG/Wright, you have to ask the same question of OP/Waleskowski. Were you satisfied with Waleskowski going 0-4 seasons on NCAA victories? Wright is 1-3 with one season taken out of play by a broken ankle. Would you rather have one A10 tournament championship or one NCAA victory?

There used to be posters here asking God for 1 NCAA victory before death in the OP years. That victory should be a nuclear bomb in this discussion. If OP released us from the curse of the two consecutive awful O'Brien years, BG has released us from the curse of the 25 year NCAA victory drought. That is 25 years with mainly an "A" and "B" coach according to the Rollo grading system. Now you are telling me a "C" coach broke that streak!

Right or wrong, that one victory did more than anything else to get us back on the map. I can't even think of the last A10 team to get an NCAA victory outiside of Xavier. Was it Saint Joseph's?
You can't compare the expectations of high school KW to high school CW, in fact that might be the worst example you could have used. KW was offered a walk on spot in what many think was a chance for OP to land his brother. His results on the floor were completely unforseeable and need to be attributed in part to coach Purnell. If you ask me in 1999 if I would be satisfied with KW and Purnell if UD made two NCAA and two NIT tournaments with Keith on the floor, the answer is an emphatic yes!

Chris Wright is the biggest recruit to choose UD since who? Jim Paxson? We counted down to his first game like he was Lebron James. Yes, he was sidelined in what was sure to be a tournament year in 2008, but perhaps better coaching/preparation in CW's absence would have taken that team to the dance?

BG gets all the credit in the world for the NCAA win over West Virginia, God bless him for it. But last year's team should have won multiple NCAA games, and BG gets credit for that too. Get more NCAA tournament wins, I'll give him a higher score.
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Old 10-04-2010, 02:18 PM
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Sometimes, I don't understand all the anger that comes out on the internets. This is a message board poll where folks were asked to state their own opinion. What I have in mind for my own objective criteria may not be the same as what someone else has in mind. There's really no need for personal attacks when someone has stated their opinion. You can disagree with it, and state your position. That's totally cool. I don't think it's cool to say that I will soil myself if "somewhere" dare give BG a C. But if that makes you feel better about yourself, that's fine.


Perryman Fan, you ask some excellent questions. For one, I would say that no, 2006 me would not have been happy if you told me CW would only have 1 NCAA win in 4 years. I know you know this, but of course so far, we've only had about 2.5 years of CW, not 4, and in my mind that weighs heavily. I firmly believe the 2007-08 Flyers would have made the NCAA and won a game had not CW broken his ankle. Can you use that belief of something that *might* have happened in your criteria to judge the head coach on the job he is doing? Well, I just did, so in my mind, yes.

Quick aside: the question for this poll/thread was not to grade BG's results over the last 7 years. It was not "give BG's entire tenure a letter grade." It was not "are you 100% pleased with the Flyers' record over the last 7 years?" I think he is currently doing an excellent job as the coach, and to me, that warrants an A grade. I listed plenty of reasons in my other post, and won't repeat them here.

Back to the other specific questions from Perryman Fan: W/L record does matter, as does national ranking, and NCAA success. I personally don't weigh the A-10 as much as some do, although of course that is quite relevant in terms of the national success of the program. I totally get that we need to do better in A-10 play in order to have NCAA success.

I think some of it depends on what you mean by "satisfied." That's tough to set a standard for these days. Every season is different, and every season, I want UD to win the national championship. But that doesn't mean I'm not satisfied with the season if they don't win the title. I think to be realistic, what I want to see is the program moving in the right direction. By that I mean sustained improvement. Others can call them excuses or fantasy if they'd like, but I think the injuries and some unlucky plays have kept UD from the success that we otherwise would have enjoyed under BG. So I don't know exactly when I would consider the team to not be meeting expectations. Last year, they didn't. I expected a return to the NCAA second round or better, but we didn't get there. This year, I expect at a minimum an NCAA bid.

So if someone wants to give BG a C, that's cool. I gave him an A, and I think the program is moving in the right direction because of him. Would I rather have won 5, 6, 7 NCAA games instead of one? Of course. Will I be "happy" with 1 NCAA win and 1 NIT championship over the next 4 years? No, I expect more than that from the program, and I think BG has us poised to have better success.

As one final aside, I think comparing recruiting and such between Donoher and BG is a waste of time. It was a totally different era, and there are quite literally thousands of significant differences that are not even worth addressing.
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Old 10-04-2010, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PerrymanFan View Post
You can't compare the expectations of high school KW to high school CW, in fact that might be the worst example you could have used. KW was offered a walk on spot in what many think was a chance for OP to land his brother. His results on the floor were completely unforseeable and need to be attributed in part to coach Purnell. If you ask me in 1999 if I would be satisfied with KW and Purnell if UD made two NCAA and two NIT tournaments with Keith on the floor, the answer is an emphatic yes!

Chris Wright is the biggest recruit to choose UD since who? Jim Paxson? We counted down to his first game like he was Lebron James. Yes, he was sidelined in what was sure to be a tournament year in 2008, but perhaps better coaching/preparation in CW's absence would have taken that team to the dance?

BG gets all the credit in the world for the NCAA win over West Virginia, God bless him for it. But last year's team should have won multiple NCAA games, and BG gets credit for that too. Get more NCAA tournament wins, I'll give him a higher score.
KW may have been misdiagnosed by every college coach out there, but from the time he stepped onto the floor as a freshman, it was obvious he was going to be an immediate impact player. Pinning your coaching/program expectations on recruiting rankings will only lead to chaos. Player recruiting rankings just are not accurate enough to do that. People who are counting NCAA victories over the next 4 years just because we have one top 50 ranked player coming in next year are not looking at the historically loose connection between the two very closely. We should have won an NCAA game during KW's time here, IMO. He was here after Purnell had time to get the program healthy again, and was surrounded by enough talent to get it done. A10 championships are nice, but NCAA wins are where it's at. A10 performance is just a means to getting to the NCAA victory end.

Let me add that top 4 A10 finish EVERY year, based on program resources is a miss in my thinking. Basketball performace is a lot more volatile than that. Look at this history of UD basketball. How many times have we had that type of performance since we have been in a conference (about 20 years?)? There is a lot more necessary in a "program" than just dollar resources. You can't argue with the proof of history.

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Old 10-04-2010, 02:38 PM
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I just don't know how people can give him the highest grade possible when he has not met the expectations of anyone.

If winning 1 NCAA Tournament game, 0 A-10 Championships (regular and post), every 7 years is the highest pennicle then we have a problem as a fan base on what expectations should be.

Do I like BG? Yes. Do I think he is doing the best he can? Yes. In my opinion does the future of this program look bright? Yes. But the results on the court are not there yet. C+, slightly above average is a very fair grade.
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:00 PM
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Putting my personal views of BG aside I gave him a C only because B- was not available. For me, an A is for excellence, B is Above Average, C average and so on. I would say he is between average and above average.

For every positive there is a negative. He has a great OOC record, but has been unsuccessful taking the next step in the A-10. In the OOC we are playing 10-12 teams a year that should be wins period. So OOC success is expected. In the A-10, years that we played well in conference have led to NCAA tourney appearances. Years that we went 8-8 or worse and we were NIT bound To me those equal out to a C.

BG had our first NCAA win in 19 years, but has only been to the NCAA tourney twice. He won an NIT title, but with a team that severely underachieved and missed the NCAA tourney. Again I feel this is a wash and is a C.

Recruiting I give him a B. I know this is not popular but hear me out. He has improved the athletes and players that have come to UD that is for sure. Year in and year out our recruits seem to improve. But with that being said he still recruits players with major holes in their game. CW has still not shown he can put the ball on the floor or consistently hit mid range jumpers. LW and KH, great players on D, but struggled on the offensive side of the floor. Many of these weaknesses have cost us over the last few years.

Player Development is another area where BG is about average. Guards seem to improve in their play, but where is the improvement in the post? I hate to pick on KH again, but he is a classic example. Although he finished up last year being a very solid player, many could argue he took a step back from his Freshman year to his soph and his soph to jr year. During that time no other post player has also shown improvement that we expected. In four years I am yet to see real drastic improvement and consistency from DS. Again I have to give him a C.

Finally, as a bench coach I give him a C. His teams continue to show that they cannot close out games. Even in 2008 when we won all those close games, in many of those close games the other side was able to make a run at UD and we were lucky to hang on to some large leads. Last year there were many games that we just could not put the the nail in the coffin and it cost us games. In most cases that reflects coaching. Also how many times have we seen UD play great in the first half, but failed to make adjustments at halftime and lost to coaches who were able to make adjustments at halftime. His initial game plan is often very good, but his in game adjustments are often not.
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PerrymanFan View Post
- OP built his program from Fordham-like results. He inherited Marko Pikaar, Shawn Scrutchins, and Chris Daniels. BG inherited Ramod, KW, and Monty Scott.
OP also inherited Ryan Perryman. And are you knocking Chris Daniels? BG went to the NCAA with Ramod and KW in 03-04 after losing Brooks Hall, D.J. Stelly, and Nate Green from the 02-03 team. Then he was left with players like James Cripe, Mark Jones, Warren Williams, Logan White, and Marques Bennett (and need I mention Chris Spears). Obviously OP had to rebuild from the bottom, but for some reason his recruiting fell off the last couple years, and BG had to do some rebuilding also. That is the main reason BG got the job instead of Jirsa. TK wasn't happy where we were at the time, and knew rebuilding was required. Maybe it took longer than most of us wanted, mainly due to BG not being able to land a top point guard, but if you asked TK or TW I'm sure they would say they are very happy where we are right now.
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
OP also inherited Ryan Perryman. And are you knocking Chris Daniels? BG went to the NCAA with Ramod and KW in 03-04 after losing Brooks Hall, D.J. Stelly, and Nate Green from the 02-03 team. Then he was left with players like James Cripe, Mark Jones, Warren Williams, Logan White, and Marques Bennett (and need I mention Chris Spears). Obviously OP had to rebuild from the bottom, but for some reason his recruiting fell off the last couple years, and BG had to do some rebuilding also. That is the main reason BG got the job instead of Jirsa. TK wasn't happy where we were at the time, and knew rebuilding was required. Maybe it took longer than most of us wanted, mainly due to BG not being able to land a top point guard, but if you asked TK or TW I'm sure they would say they are very happy where we are right now.
You are forgetting about the best center in the conference, Sean Finn.

They may be happy ... but not even TK or TW would give BG an "A" grade. He has done nothing of excellence. He has held par and slightly been above average. If you asked BG he would be diplomatic and give himself a B or B-, because he understands that he has so much more to accomplish.

He may recruit at a B level, but his player development is a C at best. He has not developed one single post player or point guard to be a all around player in all his years as a coach. You can't win A-10 championships without those two components and until he gets at least one, running wings don't win 'Ships.

Hopefully Staten and Parker break the trend, but until someone does his player development, ability to coach on the road and overall end of season results are merely elementary compared to other elite coaches at his level who deserve "A" grades. C+ to B- is where he lies.
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:25 PM
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I have to be clear. I am not arguing against anyone giving BG a "C" grade or whatever grade they want. My argument has only been that I feel like BG is being shafted a bit in the consistancy of grading against Purnell.

I think it is fun an interesting to look at the logic behind the grading comparisons.

Like I said, I am not grading on an absolute scale of A = perfection. I explained that above.

It is a lot harder to go all the way back and bring Donoher into the comparison conversation. Different eras. But I have to include his drop-off in the late 80's into the conversation because it led to the circumstances that affected the 90's and beyond. One thing leads to another.

NCAA tournament > A10 tournament

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Old 10-04-2010, 03:44 PM
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B+

Would have been an A except for the record in A10 regular season and A10 tournament play. The Flyers have been talented enough to win the league and haven't. A win in the NCAA's and an NIT championship nearly make up for that ... but not quite. Hence the B+. Also I'd like to think there is room for improvement. I'm hoping Juwan Staten makes BG look like a genius over the next 4 years. We'll see but I'm betting the Flyers will be much improved at that position.
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:55 PM
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I wish my Organic Chem, Calculus and Differential Equation professors had focused on my attendance, attitude, effort, charm and participation while ignoring my test grades....I coulda been a Rhodes Scholar!!!
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
Sean Miller is an example. He has the same time period as BG, had the same resources and produced "A" type results in his tenure.
If you're going to bring Miller into the equation - a couple things need to be considered in the comparison: Miller was an assitant at x, so he was coaching players he recruited from day 1 - no transiiton or 'rebuilding' needed

Also, In the 15 years before Miller became head coach, x was 11-10 in the NCAA tournament
In the 15 years before BG became head coach, UD was 1-3

They may have technically had the same resources, but the programs were in very difference places

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Old 10-04-2010, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
Back to the other specific questions from Perryman Fan: W/L record does matter, as does national ranking, and NCAA success.

Please don't forget graduation rates and sanctions (or lack of sanctions for UD).
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:30 PM
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I stand by my idea that you can't get an A without winning a conference championship.
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
I have to be clear. I am not arguing against anyone giving BG a "C" grade or whatever grade they want. My argument has only been that I feel like BG is being shafted a bit in the consistency of grading against Purnell.
Agree. It seems like some people are emphasizing the positives and ignoring the negatives with the other coaches, while emphasizing the negatives with BG. Then when some negatives of the other coaches are pointed out we are accused of emphasizing the negatives, when that is exactly what they are doing with respect to BG.
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 View Post
I stand by my idea that you can't get an A without winning a conference championship.
If BG wins national championships but never wins an A-10 championship, I would happily give him an A!!
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Agree. It seems like some people are emphasizing the positives and ignoring the negatives with the other coaches, while emphasizing the negatives with BG. Then when some negatives of the other coaches are pointed out we are accused of emphasizing the negatives, when that is exactly what they are doing with respect to BG.
Yeah, like that guy who twice brought up that 10 year period where Donoher didn't get an NCAA invite.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I wish my Organic Chem, Calculus and Differential Equation professors had focused on my attendance, attitude, effort, charm and participation while ignoring my test grades....I coulda been a Rhodes Scholar!!!
Now, while I wouldn't argue at length about your "C" grade, somehow you diluted your argument with the above statement.


I put myself on the "B" team and I see where the "B"s have just about caught the "A"s in the graph.

Me thinks that speaks to a lot of A- or B+ positions which were not available as a selection in this poll.

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Old 10-04-2010, 06:12 PM
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I am sorry, I respect all the former coaches at UD, as well as BG, but everyone wants to compare BG to the past. Quit living in the past. The statements are always that BG is doing better than the past coaches at UD. Times have changed. NCAA hoops has changed. Our lackluster results really haven't.

Like it or not, the bar is set down south. I don't care how bare the cupboard was when BG came in, or how full it was at X. The bottom line is that BG has had ample time to build. What does it take? 15 years? The same arguments have been said for the so-so results year after year. He has shown that he is directing the program where we want it. But direction on paper, is much different than results. We are proud that UD won the NIT, but had we all gotten our way, we shouldn't have even been in the tournament to begin with.

Is UD at the same level as X at this point in time? No. Who is responsible for seeing that we are at that level? BG. We brag about resources when it is convenient for our arguments. Well, it is convenient here. BG has more resources than X. It is time that he puts us on par with them or better. Until then, he won't get an A and shouldn't get an A. We could give him an A if he has done the best he could with what he has. He has it all for crying out loud in comparison to over 95 percent of mid majors. It is what it is, but don't sugar coat the end results.

The direction we are headed is just fine. But plans and direction don't amount to anything unless the end results come together. You ask what end results. You don't have to look any further than about 60 miles south.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:21 PM
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There is an inherent problem with measuring yourself against one benchmark Shocka. I agree we want to be better than x and we are not yet, but what if x ran into a dry spell and finished in the bottom half of the A10 two years in a row and missed the NCAA's? We caught them and BG hasn't done a thing different. Does he now get an A from you?

x is too small of a sample to target.

RPI, SOS, wins, Conference finishes, NCAA appearances and wins, all measure against the field. Measuring solely against x is fools gold because you could pass them on their way down.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
There is an inherent problem with measuring yourself against one benchmark Shocka. I agree we want to be better than x and we are not yet, but what if x ran into a dry spell and finished in the bottom half of the A10 two years in a row and missed the NCAA's? We caught them and BG hasn't done a thing different. Does he now get an A from you?

x is too small of a sample to target.

RPI, SOS, wins, Conference finishes, NCAA appearances and wins, all measure against the field. Measuring solely against x is fools gold because you could pass them on their way down.
I would assume that the current decade of X's results would be enough to determine that is where we need to be. I would hope that the majority of people on here would be smart enough to realize that if X took a dump, that we wouldn't want our bar set at that point.

Maybe I should have been more specific. I am pretty sure if X fell on their face, they wouldn't be talking about UD setting the bar and trying to achieve what we have. They can simply say they need to get back to where they were from say 2001-2010...We can't do that.

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