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View Poll Results: What grade would you give Coach Brian Gregory on how he is doing as head coach at UD?
A 61 35.06%
B 79 45.40%
C 24 13.79%
D 10 5.75%
F 0 0%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 10-04-2010, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
I am sorry, I respect all the former coaches at UD, as well as BG, but everyone wants to compare BG to the past. Quit living in the past. The statements are always that BG is doing better than the past coaches at UD. Times have changed. NCAA hoops has changed. Our lackluster results really haven't.
How can you hope to have a realistic view of where our program is if you don't look at the past? In fact, I encourage you to look into the past of X's program. Look at their journey to where they are now. Look at their scheduling, etc. How long did it take them? I can't take seriously calls for improvement that are not rooted in the reality of the present and the past.

UD can go from a 5 million dollar mens basketball budget to a 6.6 million dollar basketball budget by adding 1.6 million dollars for video boards this year. That doesn't mean I am going to expect a 32% improvement in our A10 standings this year. Money is one thing, finding ways to nourish the parts of the program that will make us a success over the long haul is another. The quality and vision of the leadership is just as critical. There are a lot of factors.

Last edited by Fudd; 10-04-2010 at 06:03 PM..
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  #102  
Old 10-04-2010, 05:43 PM
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Sure are a lot of posts by the "C" graders. Same points over and over. Wouldn't have been hard to guess who would have given BG a low grade before the poll even started. It's been the same song time after time. They are entitled to their opinion and will most likely not change. Much the same as the BG fans, while not as post happy, still are as unlikely to change their minds. So other than venting views the thread does little to change minds. Vast majority approve of BG, a small minority not so much. differences of opinion make the world an interesting place.
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  #103  
Old 10-04-2010, 06:32 PM
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I gave a B. Can't give an A until he makes a run in the NCAA and improves in conference.

No way I give a coach a C who has a 75-31 record over the last 3 years with 8 postseason wins including an NCAA win and an NIT championship. Top that off with all the big non-conference wins and the possiblity of UD having their first NBA player drafted in 21 years.

Interested in what peoples opinion of his X and O's will be with a real PG.
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  #104  
Old 10-04-2010, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Sure are a lot of posts by the "C" graders.
Maybe it's because we're the only one's making sense!
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  #105  
Old 10-04-2010, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Sure are a lot of posts by the "C" graders. Same points over and over. Wouldn't have been hard to guess who would have given BG a low grade before the poll even started. It's been the same song time after time. They are entitled to their opinion and will most likely not change. Much the same as the BG fans, while not as post happy, still are as unlikely to change their minds. So other than venting views the thread does little to change minds. Vast majority approve of BG, a small minority not so much. differences of opinion make the world an interesting place.
Sorry Boss...mine was a B.
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  #106  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
I am sorry, I respect all the former coaches at UD, as well as BG, but everyone wants to compare BG to the past. Quit living in the past..

So now you are saying if x fell on their swords for several years, they would look to their past to set the bar?

So why can't we look to our past excellence?
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  #107  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:05 PM
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I think player development is BG's key to making that jump to "A" status. You look at Xavier, and the thing that they can always claim above all other mid majors is that they put guys into the NBA. And not just one or two. Many of them. And usually successful. If you can put guys into the NBA, you can attract more kids with NBA caliber talent.

If BG can't develop kids like Wright and Staten and Johnson to become viable NBA caliber talent, we'll most likely stay below X. And worse off, local kids may stop coming here. Now, that may be unfair because it's not all up to a coach whether a kid reaches his potential. But coming out of high school, Wright was as close to a sure-thing as you'll see in the Dayton area in terms of having NBA talent. If that doesn't materialize, people will most definitely start to question BG's ability to develop talent. Xavier has a proven record of doing it over and over again.
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  #108  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Sure are a lot of posts by the "C" graders. Same points over and over. Wouldn't have been hard to guess who would have given BG a low grade before the poll even started. It's been the same song time after time. They are entitled to their opinion and will most likely not change. Much the same as the BG fans, while not as post happy, still are as unlikely to change their minds. So other than venting views the thread does little to change minds. Vast majority approve of BG, a small minority not so much. differences of opinion make the world an interesting place.
And likewise it wouldn't have been hard to guess the A voters (in lieu of "truthers" I will call them "the intangiblers"). Yet, alas, look at the poll now. It's obvious that what happened is the nobility took advantage of early voting before they departed for summering in the Hamptons. And as they stuff themselves with caviar, truffles, and champaign the serfs are revolting!!

Seriously, though, even the ones that voted C approve of BG, just not 100% happy with the results thus far.
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  #109  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
How can you hope to have a realistic view of where our program is if you don't look at the past? In fact, I encourage you to look into the past of X's program. Look at their journey to where they are now. Look at their scheduling, etc. How long did it take them? I can't take seriously calls for improvement that are not rooted in the reality of the present and the past.

UD can go from a 5 million dollar mens basketball budget to a 6.6 million dollar basketball budget by adding 1.6 million dollars for video boards this year. That doesn't mean I am going to expect a 32% improvement in our A10 standings this year. Money is one thing, finding ways to nourish the parts of the program that will make us a success over the long haul is another. The quality and vision of the leadership is just as critical. There are a lot of factors.
The problem I have is when the past is the only defense when people don't yell out that BG is the next coming of Christ.

I don't look at the past considering it does nothing for our current future. I look at what our main comparison does, and then look to see if we are getting it done. Everyone blasts OP, but he got it done in the conference sans his rebuilding years. If BG is given the same "rebuilding years" as we UD priders love to give him, then BG's .500 finishes aren't up to par. Those poor A-10 finishes are what has kept them from reaching the NCAA more than twice under him. Not scheduling, not SOS, not, RPI. Flat out not getting it done in the A-10, primarily on the road.

You mention X building their program....In the 90's...X had 6 NCAA appearances to our 1....In the 2000's....their 9 to our 4. I mean come on now. 20 years? Is that not enough of a selection of data to make some comparisons with? I don't think everyone wants to see the conference numbers.

The comparison in saying, "It took X all these years to build a program..." They have been stroking us since the 90's. Yes, X had a 20 year drought starting in the 60's. Is is acceptable for a program with the resources like UD to state it needs 20 years to find a groove?

Like I said, he got a B from me. But the cognitive dissonance in relation to UD and X is sickening around here. If the vision and plan that most of you refer to around here comes into play, most of us will be in our 80's.
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  #110  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
So now you are saying if x fell on their swords for several years, they would look to their past to set the bar?

So why can't we look to our past excellence?
We are going back to the 60's. They have something in recent memory to hang onto. We aren't even close to "several". If X fell on their face for 5 years they still have something in recent memory. Ours is 1960 to the mid 80's.
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  #111  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by masonflyer View Post
And likewise it wouldn't have been hard to guess the A voters (in lieu of "truthers" I will call them "the intangiblers"). Yet, alas, look at the poll now. It's obvious that what happened is the nobility took advantage of early voting before they departed for summering in the Hamptons. And as they stuff themselves with caviar, truffles, and champaign the serfs are revolting!!

Seriously, though, even the ones that voted C approve of BG, just not 100% happy with the results thus far.

Exactly. I still like BG and I am happy. But I believe his efforts and total results on the court are representative of a C to C+ grade. Anyone who can give him an "A" really needs to figure out why. BG has not met expectations yet. If anything our program on a national stage is the same as it was, maybe a tad bit worse than from day one that he started.

Every year we begin the preseason around 30-40 and make a run into the top 25, then fade down the stretch and pray to get in the dance. At least when someone like OP was at the helm you had the feeling in the back of your mind that he could lead us to an A-10 Championship every now and then.

BG may leave us in a better place than OP did ... but that is yet to be seen. You can't grade on the future.

1 NCAA Win in 7 seasons, 0 NBA Players in 7 seasons, 0 A-10 championships in 7 seasons does not warrant a grade of an A. Which is why after people like Rollo, Me and others started saying this, the grade of "A" was quickly passed by the grade of "B". Last year was supposed to be "the year" and it ended up in utter disappointment. The NIT run was fun and it gave everyone "warm and fuzzies" but at the end of the day it meant little or nothing in regards to the big picture. Beating a 16-15 UNC team on a neutral court does not breed success.

If there were pluses and minuses there would be 10 or less "A's".

Once again, I am excited for Staten/Parker and this season. But, until BG can get us over that hump ... I cannot be too excited.
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  #112  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
The problem I have is when the past is the only defense when people don't yell out that BG is the next coming of Christ.

I don't look at the past considering it does nothing for our current future. I look at what our main comparison does, and then look to see if we are getting it done. Everyone blasts OP, but he got it done in the conference sans his rebuilding years. If BG is given the same "rebuilding years" as we UD priders love to give him, then BG's .500 finishes aren't up to par. Those poor A-10 finishes are what has kept them from reaching the NCAA more than twice under him. Not scheduling, not SOS, not, RPI. Flat out not getting it done in the A-10, primarily on the road.

You mention X building their program....In the 90's...X had 6 NCAA appearances to our 1....In the 2000's....their 9 to our 4. I mean come on now. 20 years? Is that not enough of a selection of data to make some comparisons with? I don't think everyone wants to see the conference numbers.

The comparison in saying, "It took X all these years to build a program..." They have been stroking us since the 90's. Yes, X had a 20 year drought starting in the 60's. Is is acceptable for a program with the resources like UD to state it needs 20 years to find a groove?

Like I said, he got a B from me. But the cognitive dissonance in relation to UD and X is sickening around here. If the vision and plan that most of you refer to around here comes into play, most of us will be in our 80's.
I think you are supporting my point with a lot of this. Both programs have been through long droughts and long periods of success. Success breeds success and failure breeds failure. The past is important because it reveals patterns that can teach you of pitfalls. The past is important because you are recruiting on the last 10 years of success or failure. The last 20-30 years define the prestige of the program which factors into so many things in the present. The past is important because it helps you define goals that are achievable through hard work. We would all love to luck out and hit the jackpot with 5 great recruits next year, but if that doesn't happen we have to keep working forward with small victories that accumulate until we eventually get 5 jackpot recruits who decide they have to be here.

I don't know what you mean with the cognitive dissonance thing.
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  #113  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:00 PM
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'fess up!@!

Who gave BG a 'D'....and why? Not even the most critical Flyer can justify that grade.
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  #114  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Who gave BG a 'D'....and why? Not even the most critical Flyer can justify that grade.


I have to admit I got a kick out of the D.
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  #115  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post


I have to admit I got a kick out of the D.

It's basically the same as giving an A ... got a kick 50 times!
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  #116  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Who gave BG a 'D'....and why? Not even the most critical Flyer can justify that grade.

It has to be t-man
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  #117  
Old 10-04-2010, 09:15 PM
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Fudd...

I agree that in life, past performance is a good predictor of future performance. It relates that way in almost every personnel management theory as well. My problem with our past, is that it doesn't relate to us in comparison with the future. We have different coaches, players, donors, assistants, etc...Individuals are different. Employee A is lazy his first 5 years, what makes anyone think the next 5 will be any different.

The main thing here is that a program like X has done what they needed to do in the short term, to meet long term goals. They have met their long term goals for almost two decades. We have taken baby steps to see that the future is on the way. If in fact the theory of past performance predicts the future, then what makes everyone think that BG will find a way to win on the road in the A-10. I am not saying this will happen, but the theory can't hold true for some aspects of the game, and not others. Success can breed success, and failure, failure. But average breeds average. We are above average, but the end results of say, conference play are very average if not below average based on expectations and where they should be.

I just can't see giving someone a high grade, when the outcomes aren't all that impressive. I wish my undergrad grades were based on my future grad school grades. This is basically what the BG die hards are basing the grade on. Direction, not results.
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  #118  
Old 10-04-2010, 09:37 PM
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I gave an A- which I would like to change to a B because there are no minuses and pluses. BG is a great recruiter but I can't give an A until he takes us to a lot more NCAA Tournaments and also win when we get there.
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  #119  
Old 10-04-2010, 09:46 PM
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Shocka, my argument about the significance of history and "program level" are not directed at saying that the future will be a straight line extrapolation based on past results. If you look at the pattern of coaches who had to go through some rebuild/retooling of the program (Purnell is a great example for us), look at how his performance in the A10 steadily improved over time.

BG has a different profile, where he had a good class of waleskowski and friends in the first year, but was forced to go with freshmen in his 2nd year (and did quite well considering), and then lost Meacham in the 3rd year, IMO hurting us by creating a mini-crisis at pg. So you can track our performance downward for those 2 years. Then, as he got his recruits in place as juniors, we began the upward trend to where we are today.

So history shows us that the coach can move the needle a little bit each year. It's just not realistic for us to go from steady poor performance to steady awesome performance. That is my point. Progress is tempered with the momentum of the program. Inertia has it's effect.

Look at the curves that show up in the year-to-year performance of all of our coaches over the last 35 years. There is continuity, not much discontinuity.

How far could Purnell have taken us if he stayed? It's hard to say, but I suspect he knew that he did not have much below the Waleskowski class.

So now here we are with BG, almost at the same point where Purnell left for Clemson. Do you think the cupboard will be bare if BG goes soon? I tend to suspect that will not happen with BG. I could be wrong, but I think he is a more consistant recruiter than Purnell. Hopefully, if he were to leave, he would give us a chance for continuity into the next hire. It would be great if we could promote from within or get a guy who runs the same system.

You are free to make your predictions and put your expectations where you want. I look at history and say that so far BG has shown a very similar pattern of growth to what Purnell did. The rate of improvement will slow the better we get. My goal is for UD to get to the NCAA 4-5 times per decade right now (With most of the other years NIT). If we do that, we should be considered a top A10 power. I base that off of the history of the A10. That is what the "superpower" A10 teams have done historically. Once we do that for a 10 year period, I think we can talk about what will get us to the next level.

I think the key to doing that is either keeping BG or seamlessly keeping the momentum with a qualified coach replacement from within or a replacement who has a very similar style. Hopefully we have the guy developing from within.

I never deny that A10 performance is important, but I judge the coach on total performance and mostly post season success. The laser beam focus on A10 performance is not for me. I'm looking at the bigger picture.

NCAA tournament > A10 tournament

Last edited by Fudd; 10-05-2010 at 08:17 AM..
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  #120  
Old 10-04-2010, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
I never deny that A10 performance is important, but I judge the coach on total performance and mostly post season success. The laser beam focus on A10 performance is not for me. I'm looking at the bigger picture.
NCAA tournament > A10 tournament
Fudd, the reason that people are focusing on A 10 regular season and tourney results is because that is the pathway to an NCAA bid. It is very difficult to get an at large bid without a top 4 finish in the A 10. Likewise, it is very hard to get into the semi - finals, more so the finals without the first round bye.

Just look at last year. A semi - final birth may have gotten UD into the tourney, a finals loss would have definitely done it. If that would have happened they may have won 2 NCAA tourney games the way they played in th NIT. I for one would have given BG an A had that happened.
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  #121  
Old 10-04-2010, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by masonflyer View Post
Fudd, the reason that people are focusing on A 10 regular season and tourney results is because that is the pathway to an NCAA bid. It is very difficult to get an at large bid without a top 4 finish in the A 10. Likewise, it is very hard to get into the semi - finals, more so the finals without the first round bye.

Just look at last year. A semi - final birth may have gotten UD into the tourney, a finals loss would have definitely done it. If that would have happened they may have won 2 NCAA tourney games the way they played in th NIT. I for one would have given BG an A had that happened.
It's a little bit different every year depending on a teams non-conf SOS/performance and how the top of the league shakes down. Sometimes we are a 1 or 2 bid league (2004 and 2005). Rarely 8-8 or 9-7 (Saint Joe's 2007) teams from the A10 have made the NCAA as at-larges. 10-6 and 11-5 really get you strong in the conversation, but if you are weak in the non-con, you are still at risk (Saint Louis 2009, Rhode Island 2008)(UMass 13-3 2006)(Saint Joe's 14-2 2004).

Of course doing well in the A10 is a big factor, but the non-con can factor in very heavy depending on the quality of the league.

And then the bottom line of my argument: Purnell did a lot better in the league, but still only went to the NCAA 2 times in 9 years. That is the same as BG in 7 years, but without BG's NCAA win. I respect that people want to do well in the A10 consistantly, but if it isn't resulting in increased trips to the NCAA, it is nothing but A10 wins. That isn't going to move the needle by itself.

NCAA tournament > A10 tournament

Last edited by Fudd; 10-05-2010 at 01:33 AM..
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  #122  
Old 10-05-2010, 08:21 AM
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If this was UK, I'd give him a C because they are all about wins and don't care how they get there. (ie: hiring Calipari.) At UD, however, I give him an A. He runs a clean program, graduates players, carries himself well and has players that do likewise, and he gets 20+ wins. Not there aren't other coaches who do the same, I'd give them A's as well.
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  #123  
Old 10-05-2010, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
If this was UK, I'd give him a C because they are all about wins and don't care how they get there. (ie: hiring Calipari.) At UD, however, I give him an A. He runs a clean program, graduates players, carries himself well and has players that do likewise, and he gets 20+ wins. Not there aren't other coaches who do the same, I'd give them A's as well.
This is just a difference of philosophy. I think that NCAA violations and players that spend more time at parole hearings than practices should prevent a coach from earning a good grade, but shouldn't automatically give a coach high marks. Because of this, and the fact that 20 wins doesn't mean a lot in the grand scheme of Div-1 basketball, I look more to conference championships and postseason wins. I just can't see how a coach can get an A without a conference championship (unless his team sneaks into the tournament and goes on a major tear).

Coaching is judged, whether fair or not, in large part by W's and L's. BG has been stellar against non-conference opponents, but he cannot get an A until he shows he can win against our conference foes, especially (as some posters have pointed out) given UD's resources compared to those of many other A10 teams. An A coach will win the conference and make more frequent appearances in the NCAA.

I gave BG a B/B-. He's had UD ranked at some point the past few seasons, but he still has not managed an A10 championship. I don't know how you can give a coach the highest marks of achievement when he hasn't won his conference once in his career. To do so seems completely unreasonable to me.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
If this was UK, I'd give him a C because they are all about wins and don't care how they get there. (ie: hiring Calipari.) At UD, however, I give him an A. He runs a clean program, graduates players, carries himself well and has players that do likewise, and he gets 20+ wins. Not there aren't other coaches who do the same, I'd give them A's as well.
I agree UD, a lot more to it than wins. I guess we could have Cal and the C's would turn to A's. Have to agree with rollo though, the rating of D given by some fool was beyond stupid.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:57 AM
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I gave BG a B, would've been a B- if given the option.

Given the resources allocated to UD basketball and the time BG's had to work with all of these resources ($$$, facilities, staff, history, community support, admin support, alum support, student support, et. al.) I'd say he still has a long way to go toward an A, but certainly isn't a C.

I disagree with Fudd regarding the A-10. Win your conference, which BTW is now considered a very strong conference by the pundits and peers, and the rest falls into place - particularly in recruiting better players than other teams in your conference, which will hopefully lead to more, and more successful NCAA dances.

It's hard to get better local and nearby players than x when they can point to A-10 titles while we talk about intangibles.

I think BG is on the right path and I think that he's the right guy for the job, has all the skills, works like a dog, is a credit to the program...BUT, he has to take the next step with the players he is targeting (most of whom he is getting) which is consistently winning and contending for A-10 championships. The rest, IMO, follows...

Go Flyers!
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  #126  
Old 10-05-2010, 01:46 PM
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A=4; B=3; C=2; D=1; F=0

A's*52=208
B's*55=165
C's*10=20
D's*1=1

Total=394
Votes=118

GPA = 3.339

Not quite on the deans list.
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Old 10-05-2010, 01:49 PM
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.... or should I have said deans' list. :-)

Kind of funny when I looked again. You've got your easy A's. You've got your tough but fair. You've got your known hardcases. You've got the one teacher that will burn in your mind for the rest of eternity.

Last edited by Canonball; 10-05-2010 at 01:56 PM..
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  #128  
Old 10-06-2010, 09:03 AM
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I gave BG an A. I understand each individual season has had it's share of disappointments (as most schools/coaches have), but when i step back and look at the program he was given, how he has built it up, even after some adversity, to where it is today and where it is set up to be for years to come...all while doing it with what appears to be the highest level of integrity and focus on the student athlete part of things...I think he has done a great job. Never in my 25 years of being close to UD has this program been close to the solid footing it is on now. There are things to improve upon for sure, but what some may view as his deficiencies I think you can also view as strengths. Is it coaching inflexibility or knowing the limitations of your team and playing to their strengths? Each season is a series of gams that is won by a coach and his players. in the course of things, you hopefully win much more than you lose and show progress. BG has earned an A from me for what he has done so far, and he simply does not have his degree (to continue the school/grading analogies) yet, so there is more to come and accomplish.

I'm sure many disagree, but just know that, though i am an admittedly optimistic/positive fan by nature, I am not blind. I do admit there is still work to do, and i do understand the points of view of many. but when taking a long view, I sure do like how far we have come and where we are set up to go.
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  #129  
Old 10-06-2010, 10:37 AM
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I don't think many disagree AC. with about 92% of the respondents giving BG an A or B, I suggest that a few may disagree. But we do dwell on the few.
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  #130  
Old 10-06-2010, 03:04 PM
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A?


7th in A10

Dream.
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:58 PM
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Forego ... agree.

Here is the thing ... if this poll has "-" and "+" signs BG would have less 9% "A's".

It wasn't until the realists started to question the voting that the votes began to swing. At one time "A" was up by 30 votes and within time and people realizing the actual situation "B" overtook it and "C" crept in with 10%.

The thing is this poll need's "-" and "+". I thought a "B" was too high and a "C" was too low ... my ideal grade would be a "C+" and possibly a "B-".

I can understand where the enthusiast could vote a "B" or "B+" but an "A" is just blindness and red and blue glasses.

No coach who has finished with 4 seasons of .500 or WORSE in the A-10 Conference can be given a grade of an "A". I mean three seventh place finishes? One 11th place (which was an understandable year).

5 Double digit loss seasons, 2 NIT appearances and and 3 nothings, 0 NBA players (lack of player development) and 0 A-10 Titles.

One NCAA win in seven seasons, 150-80 overall record which is very competitive, great image, slightly above average recruiting and a dedicated worker are the positives.

Overall he is slightly above average for his term.

He has been given 7 years and has the most resources in the A-10 and still cannot boast any legitimacy in the conference and the national perception of us is the exact same when he entered the picture.

I like the guy, I think he has done a decent job here ... but it is put up or shut up time, this program NEEDS results on the freaking court.

I think with Parker and Staten this may be the year the roll begins, but I have thought this before and have been disappointed ... so I will hold my breath.
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  #132  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
I can understand where the enthusiast could vote a "B" or "B+" but an "A" is just blindness and red and blue glasses.
If some of us are looking at this through "red and blue glasses", is it possible you are looking at this through the prism of being someone that has been through multiple long term bans from this site?

Just saying that both might be minor distortions of reality.

But you are addressing mostly a bunch of people who are intentionally putting on the red and blue glasses and buying tickets for big money because they enjoy being fanatics for UD basketball. That might suprise you, but it is true.

Last edited by SideshowBob; 10-06-2010 at 04:24 PM..
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  #133  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:41 PM
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I put up money, I travel, I love the Flyers ... on occasion I let myself peek through the red and blue glasses during the highest of highs during the season.

I think my analysis of the situation given the 7 year tenure is pretty sound. Everyone has their own and opinion, that is what makes America great. However, it is just hard to see 42 people "rewarding excellence" to someone who has not shown excellence in his results on the court.

Great community guy, hard worker, does a lot of good for the school. But eventually that has to pay off where it counts and finishing 7th almost every year in conference is not where it counts.

I state again. This program is at the same perceived place nationally as it was when OP left. Nothing forward, nothing backwards. That is not "A" material.
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
I state again. This program is at the same perceived place nationally as it was when OP left. Nothing forward, nothing backwards.
I disagree here. I think we are getting much more national attention now than we did under OP. It started with Chris Wright. Every time he gets attention UD gets attention, and he gets a lot of attention. When we were a 4 seed under OP many national pundits predicted we would lose, and we did. They talked about us, but in a negative way. The win over West Virginia in the NCAA and BG's recruiting have done wonders for the perception of the program. We were talked about a great deal during the last off season, and even though we didn't live up to the hype, we got a lot of pub. The NIT Championship got us attention also. We have been nationally ranked three years in a row. I think we have definitely improved our stature under BG.
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  #135  
Old 10-06-2010, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
Forego ... agree.

It wasn't until the realists started to question the voting that the votes began to swing. At one time "A" was up by 30 votes and within time and people realizing the actual situation "B" overtook it and "C" crept in with 10%.
This is not necessarily true. I cast my vote without reading a single post. My B was given without knowing how others voted nor how anyone commented. This could have happened for a lot of people.

I understand those who gave a C, I even understand the As, but don't necessarily agree with them.

My curiosity was piqued by Rollo giving a B to OP and C to BG. BG was the first to win a NCAA tourney game since 1990. He was also the first to win the NIT since Donoher. OP's recruiting in the last few years here was not good and it showed in BG's 2nd year.

I have no problems with the A or A- for Donoher. He had pretty good success when he got to the tourney (though he got in in the 70s with 18 and 19 win seasons).

I think we are absolutely heading in the right direction, but one of those things that has to be corrected is our A10 performance in order to achieve the A in my mind. We do well against teams that play us man-to-man and straight up - not so much if they know us well. That is why we need to have shooting threats from both mid and long-range.

If Parker and Staten are capable, we could have an interesting year.

Last edited by IAFlyer; 10-07-2010 at 07:27 AM.. Reason: Correction
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  #136  
Old 10-06-2010, 09:59 PM
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An analogy: Most of you aspire for UD to be a player at the highest level,
say the Breeder's Cup or Kentucky Derby. Forgetting being invited, you have to show consistency in high level stakes to be considered seriously.

UD is running its prep races for the most part in high claiming races.

It is conceivable, but the domination must be notable there. 4th, 3rd, 2nd place doesn't cut it (surely not 7th). It is delusional not to think our grade, (our level) must not improve hugely.

If 'A' now (in claiming competition), where do we have to go from here?

If you had interchanged X's record for BG's record....... see what I mean?

AND STILL there would be a lot of work to do.

YET, I am optimistic for BG and the challenge.
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:16 PM
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BG gets an 'A' if this were Fordham.
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:33 AM
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Here is a link to the A10 board where WH, a former journalist who covered the A10, makes some coach evaluations.

http://www.basketballforum.com/atlan...coaches-3.html

Oh, what the heck. I might as well cut and paste it all. I'm sure he won't mind. It's just one opinion, but the guy is well respected by most A10 fans and his pre-season stuff is fun to read. He rates BG as the #3 coach in the league over the last 4 years if I am reading his explanation right.

I know this is not the A,B,C grading system that he is using, but I just wanted to show that BG is relatively well respected by some knowledgable impartial observers out there. He isn't wearing red and blue glasses as a UMass fan.

There are two ways to rank coaches in broad terms: lifetime achievement or shorter-term window.

Lifetime achievement evaluates coaches over a career, recognizing that most have peaks and valleys. John Chaney is a Hall of Fame coach, but he was clearly fading in his last 5 years, at least based on comparison to his earlier career.

From a lifetime approach, Majerus is clearly No. 1 and Dunphy No. 2. Martelli is third and Baron fourth.

I have based my evaluations in prior years on effectively a four-year moving average – judging coaches by their most recent performance. Charlotte’s new coach is a complete unknown since this is his first year, and Chris Mack really should not be judged yet. But I will.

1)Fran Dunphy. His teams are always well balanced and fundamentally sound on offense and defense. They don’t beat themselves. Dunphy is also the best coach in the league at developing players. His big downside is so-so recruiting. You’d think Temple would be getting higher-level recruits after three straight NCAA appearances and A-10 tourney titles. With Xavier-level talent, the Owls would be a Final 4 threat every so often.

2)Chris Mooney. Great rebuilding job at Richmond. Mooney has a good eye for talent and has recruited very well. He would do even better at a bigger school. The offense is well organized and the Spiders have become an above-average defensive team. Mooney is almost like Dunphy lite, though he has to have the same success for a number of years to match him. One caveat: the Spiders suffer more bouts of inconsistency than Temple.

3)Brian Gregory. Gregory has recruited exceedingly well at Dayton despite some problems finding a topflight point guard. His teams are athletic, tough and physical. Sure, the offense has been a sore spot at times, and Dayton still isn’t a consistently good road team, but Gregory’s pluses far outweigh his minuses. I think he grew a ton as a coach last year and we’ll see the fruits of it this season.

4)Rick Majerus. Big Rick looks ready to take his place in the top two if there are no roster disruptions this season. SLU has massively upgraded its talent level and the team is very organized at both ends of the floor. RM has a good eye for talent and develops players almost as well as Dunphy. He is the best coach in the league when he’s at the top of his game. The question is, does he still have a fastball? We’re about to find out.

5)Jim Baron. The Baron is recruiting as well as he’s ever done and the Rams have been consistent winners over the past four years with … 89 wins! Hard to believe because URI has not made the NCAA tournament over that span. And that’s the problem to Rhody fans. Whatever Baron’s merit as a coach, postseason success (NCAAs) has eluded him. Fans rightly question whether he’s taken the program as far as it can go. Give Baron this. He’s willing to reinvent himself as a coach to find success. Most coaches are afraid of change.

6)Phil Martell. The second-longest serving coach in the A-10 has won fast and won slow, but lately he hasn’t won much at all. Martelli is a terrific X and Os guy when he has the right personnel. Problem is, his recruiting and player retention have been very spotty the past few years. This is a sideways program at the moment. I am not sure Martelli can get back to being the coach he was, either.

7)Chris Mack. He’s only been a head coach one year, but Mack grew steadily as a rookie boss and Xavier looked pretty ****ed good by season’s end. The offense smoothened out and the defense solidified. Those are marks of good coaching. What’s more, Mack is recruiting on paper as well as any coach in league history, based on his current and pending classes. Quite the fast start, even with all the advantages the Xavier program conferred upon him.

8)Ron Everhart. RE has made a dismal program respectable in short order. Ask Fordham how hard that is to do. He finds good players in odd places and plays an exciting brand of ball. Every A-10 opponent has to be ready for Duquesne these days because no one knows what to expect. Now, can Everhart stabilize the talent base and bring more consistency to both sides of the ball? The Dukes have been helter skelter under his leadership.

9)Karl Hobbs. Hobbs has been very uneven the past four years, but he might be back on the rise. He took a very young squad last year and made it respectable right away. I saw more intensity and energy and just better play all around. Hobbs is into coaching again and no longer resentful on the sidelines after missing out on a big job. He did a great job recruiting for last year’s class and seemed to have followed up with more solid recruits. On his best days, Hobbs is one of the finest teachers of fastbreak basketball in the NCAA. I think he would do even better as a coach and recruiter at a high-level school in the SEC.

10)John Giannini. Dr G has been up and down in his A-10 tenure. He has proven he can coach and recruit, but not consistently. His teams often lack a key part or two and he can’t seem to get the offense and defense functioning properly at the same time. Partly that’s because of an unbalance roster that’s lacked sufficient ball handlers and shooters. It seems G has rectified those problems, though roster depth is shallow. Whether the fault is the coach or the school, LaSalle just needs to get all its ducks in a row to truly contend.

11)Tom Pecora. The new Fordham coach posted some excellent seasons in the Colonial. He has a good eye for talent and is a great motivator. Yet he never managed to break into the top echelon of a lesser league. Nor has he garnered an invitation to the NCAAs. I need to see how he does in the A-10 for at least a year to properly evaluate him.

12)Mark Schmidt. Former Xavier assistant has recruited better than I expected, but like Giannini, he can’t seem to accumulate all the necessary components of his roster at the same time. It feels like Bonaventure is running in place after Schmidt made the program respectable again. I don’t think the Bonnies have excelled offensively or defensively. They don’t really stand out in any one way.

13)Dereck Kellogg. Two years into his coaching career the jury is still out on the former UMass point guard. Sometimes the team looks great, sometimes it looks terrible. DK appears to be a terrific recruiter. He is bringing in loads of topflight talent.Yet the offense is erratic and the defense has been subpar. I don’t get the sense yet that DK has a handle on everything required of a coach.

14)Alan Major – incomplete. I like how much he’s talked about defense and he seems to be recruiting well in his first season. Changing a coach is always a gamble, but it was worth taking in Charlotte’s case. I am excited again about the Niners.

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Old 10-07-2010, 07:42 AM
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Fudd, what is this logic and objectivity you're trying to include? This is a message board, and I want to be able to state my opinion, base it on a very narrow set of criteria, and say that anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot.

I take offense that someone would say that me giving BG an A is just "blindness and red and blue glasses" while dismissing lengthy explanations given. If you'd asked me 4 years ago, BG would have gotten a C from me. If you ask me how he "is doing" as the coach (this poll question, remember?), right now, I think he gets an A because he is improving the program, improving our national standing, doing it the right way while running a clean program with players the school and its fans can be proud of. We've had more postseason success the last two years than at any point in the last 20 years. If you want to only look at wins and losses and compare that to some other school, that's fine. I don't think that's the only criteria that should be used. I don't think that comparing UD's current success to our last 20 years' (lack of) success is the only criteria either, but I think it's relevant.
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:48 AM
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If you ask me how he "is doing" as the coach (this poll question, remember?), right now

To quote a famous leader, what is the definition of the word "is?"
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:35 AM
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I don't know about all of this (I gave BG an A), but I sure do love Fudd's avatar. Man! I'd definitely give her more than an A if given the chance...
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:20 AM
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'1)Fran Dunphy. His teams are always well balanced and fundamentally sound on offense and defense. They donít beat themselves. Dunphy is also the best coach in the league at developing players. His big downside is so-so recruiting. Youíd think Temple would be getting higher-level recruits after three straight NCAA appearances and A-10 tourney titles. With Xavier-level talent, the Owls would be a Final 4 threat every so often.'

Fran Dunphy has 12 NCAA appearances and has won 1 of those first round games. Three of those games have been at Temple. The single victory was a first round upset of Nebraska in 93-94 while at Penn. I do like Dunphy and the direction he's going with Temple. But his tournament record is terrible, even though most of that is because he was trying to win first round games with an aq team out of the Ivy League.
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Canonball View Post
'1)Fran Dunphy. His teams are always well balanced and fundamentally sound on offense and defense. They don’t beat themselves. Dunphy is also the best coach in the league at developing players. His big downside is so-so recruiting. You’d think Temple would be getting higher-level recruits after three straight NCAA appearances and A-10 tourney titles. With Xavier-level talent, the Owls would be a Final 4 threat every so often.'

Fran Dunphy has 12 NCAA appearances and has won 1 of those first round games. Three of those games have been at Temple. The single victory was a first round upset of Nebraska in 93-94 while at Penn. I do like Dunphy and the direction he's going with Temple. But his tournament record is terrible, even though most of that is because he was trying to win first round games with an aq team out of the Ivy League.
Yeah, I can't imagine the beating he would take here as our coach with that 1st round NCAA loss record. The sad fact is that not many A10 coaches have come away with NCAA victories over the years. Getting an NCAA victory is like gold for a coach in this league. I think that is why our win in 2008-2009 is responsible for our leap forward in status among the pundits.

The NCAA tournament has to stop being a bloodbath for A10 teams.

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Old 10-07-2010, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
I take offense that someone would say that me giving BG an A is just "blindness and red and blue glasses"

THirt- don't insult the blind!

You have to be deaf, dumb, and near comotose (light banter)

I trust BG (red and blue glasses)

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Old 10-07-2010, 12:59 PM
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I gave BG the Blame Guy an A also.

If he isn't doing "A" work then why were others interested in offering him a job during the off season?
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:13 PM
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Byron Scott has a career coaching record of 352-355 (0.498).

You were saying?
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohio Gaming Slots View Post
I gave BG the Blame Guy an A also.

If he isn't doing "A" work then why were others interested in offering him a job during the off season?
This is not a good argument. I can get all B's in school and still get a job offer, just not at a top employer (in this analogy, a school like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc.). BG has done a good job, but not an A job in my opinion, he's just been offered to replace coaches who were scoring D's and F's.

I also am not a fan of the posters who admit he has room to improve, but give him an A for what he's done thus far. If you are admitting he has room to improve, that by definition seems to preclude giving him an A. I don't see why there is such an aversion to giving the guy lower than an A as an admission that he has room to improve. It's not like we're saying he won't get an A or can't, it's just that after 7 years he has not earned the top grade you could give a basketball coach. I think this is why some are claiming posters are looking at it only though "red and blue glasses."
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:30 PM
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Our coach needs offers from Duke, Kentucky, UNC etc to get an "A"? Those teams seem content with their coaches right now.

Gaming Slots, your logic makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:37 PM
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I give up! I change my grade to an A. And if we can get a 6th place finish in the A 10 this year, make it to the semi-finals in the A 10 tournament, and lose in the first round of the NCAA tournament, then I will change my grade to A+.
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Byron Scott has a career coaching record of 352-355 (0.498).

You were saying?
I'm not sure what you are saying here. His won-loss record does not necessarily show that Byron Scott has not done "A" work. The fact that he was in demand supports the point that won-loss record alone should not be used to judge a coach. I'm not saying BG should get an A (I gave him a B+). I am just saying that your post may help support that position. All the pundits seem to think Scott is an excellent coach, in spite of that won-loss record.
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 View Post
This is not a good argument. I can get all B's in school and still get a job offer, just not at a top employer (in this analogy, a school like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc.). BG has done a good job, but not an A job in my opinion, he's just been offered to replace coaches who were scoring D's and F's.

I also am not a fan of the posters who admit he has room to improve, but give him an A for what he's done thus far. If you are admitting he has room to improve, that by definition seems to preclude giving him an A. I don't see why there is such an aversion to giving the guy lower than an A as an admission that he has room to improve. It's not like we're saying he won't get an A or can't, it's just that after 7 years he has not earned the top grade you could give a basketball coach. I think this is why some are claiming posters are looking at it only though "red and blue glasses."
I never took a class where you had to score 100% on every test in order to get an A. An A grade usually was 90% or better (sometimes a 93% or better). That's the point of a letter grade, right? If you perform on average at a high level over a wide range of criteria, you deserve an A.

This is how I look at it: if the options in this poll were "very good" "good" "average" "poor" and "terrible," then I would say BG is doing a very good job overall as our coach. Very good equates to an A, good to a B, and so on. If that's how you look at it, I don't agree that overall BG is doing an average job as our coach. I respect the right of anyone, even people who have been banned from this board in the past, to argue otherwise, but not if there is no rational thought or recognition of other perspectives.

I'm not going to argue that our A-10 performance has been much above average, but I will argue that BG overall is going a very good job as the head coach.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
I never took a class where you had to score 100% on every test in order to get an A. An A grade usually was 90% or better (sometimes a 93% or better). That's the point of a letter grade, right? If you perform on average at a high level over a wide range of criteria, you deserve an A.
Excellent point. Many who don't think he should get an A argue that if you give him an A you are saying there is no room for improvement. That is simply not the case. You can get an A and there can still be room for improvement.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I'm not sure what you are saying here. His won-loss record does not necessarily show that Byron Scott has not done "A" work. The fact that he was in demand supports the point that won-loss record alone should not be used to judge a coach. I'm not saying BG should get an A (I gave him a B+). I am just saying that your post may help support that position. All the pundits seem to think Scott is an excellent coach, in spite of that won-loss record.
You're taking this post a little too literally / seriously. Just pointing out that just because he has other job offers doesn't mean that he's done his best work, or the best job that could be done, or even a really good job. There are lots of coaches who are not particularly good and yet, mysteriously, end up getting offers to coach. Once you're in the club you have an aura of competence.

Remember, I gave him a B+.

There was a person I worked for who was the biggest bumbleflip you could ever imagine. I could tell you stories all day long of this person's utter incompetence that you would not believe. The person was eventually fired for incompentence (a feat in itself in today's litigious world), but, because the person had a flashy title on the ol' resume, this person actually got a promotion by being hired at another company. After 2 years and being fired again for incompetence, there was another job offer with an even bigger title. Last I heard that title was CFO at a medium sized company.

I'm just saying, once you're in the club, you have to fight your way out.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Remember, I gave him a B+.
I knew you were intelligent all along.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:29 PM
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The only way to always have room for improvement is to never do your best...

...and doing your best doesn't mean you have to go undefeated or score a 100%....

Doing your best means maximizing your abilities. It may mean an 83 on the golf course or a 93 on a calculus test....but it certainly doesn't mean 8-8 in your mid-major conference, especially when you were returning the meat and potatoes from your NCAA team the previous season.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 View Post

I also am not a fan of the posters who admit he has room to improve, but give him an A for what he's done thus far. If you are admitting he has room to improve, that by definition seems to preclude giving him an A. I don't see why there is such an aversion to giving the guy lower than an A as an admission that he has room to improve. It's not like we're saying he won't get an A or can't, it's just that after 7 years he has not earned the top grade you could give a basketball coach. I think this is why some are claiming posters are looking at it only though "red and blue glasses."
I got plenty of A's at UD where i had room for improvement. Got an A in calculus I but still didn't know all of calculus. I got an A in Kinematics of Machines by the skin of my teeth. I certainly did not score perfectly on every quiz, test and project in any given class, but got many A's. I also have no issue with anyone giving him any grade. And, converse to your statement, I don't understand the aversion to people saying he deserves an A for the job done to date while admitting there are still things to accomplish.

If one thing is clear in this debate it's that there are many, many ways by which Flyer fans judge BG and the Men's Basketball program. And that's is perfectly fine, as long as we're all there on game day.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:52 PM
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A's mean top of your class, not 100%!!!

Originally Posted by AC91 View Post
I got plenty of A's at UD where i had room for improvement. Got an A in calculus I but still didn't know all of calculus. I got an A in Kinematics of Machines by the skin of my teeth. I certainly did not score perfectly on every quiz, test and project in any given class, but got many A's.
True, but I also bet that you didn't earn those A's with scores 50% or by finishing 8th out of 14 people in your class.
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Old 10-07-2010, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
True, but I also bet that you didn't earn those A's with scores 50% or by finishing 8th out of 14 people in your class.
Maybe his professor wasn't grading only on a portion of the tests he took. Maybe the professor was looking at the performance of the entire semester and grading off of the final position with respect to all of the other students at the end of the class rather than before the last 5 assignments were completed.
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Old 10-07-2010, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Byron Scott has a career coaching record of 352-355 (0.498).

You were saying?
That is a completely bizarre addition to this thread.
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Old 10-07-2010, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 View Post
This is not a good argument. I can get all B's in school and still get a job offer, just not at a top employer (in this analogy, a school like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, etc.). BG has done a good job, but not an A job in my opinion, he's just been offered to replace coaches who were scoring D's and F's.

I also am not a fan of the posters who admit he has room to improve, but give him an A for what he's done thus far. If you are admitting he has room to improve, that by definition seems to preclude giving him an A. I don't see why there is such an aversion to giving the guy lower than an A as an admission that he has room to improve. It's not like we're saying he won't get an A or can't, it's just that after 7 years he has not earned the top grade you could give a basketball coach. I think this is why some are claiming posters are looking at it only though "red and blue glasses."
It is not an agrument but other than my opinion.

Had TI left for the pros .. BG would be replacing a D and F coach? At least I believe he would had been offered that position and from the posts that are on here a lot of others believe that he would have been offered the position too.

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Old 10-07-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
True, but I also bet that you didn't earn those A's with scores 50% or by finishing 8th out of 14 people in your class.
Depends how heavily you weigh that one aspect of what you are grading. I have certainly gotten A's in my life despite poor performance in a specific aspect of that class. I would agree there is room for improvement there for sure, and if the question was "How would you grade BG on his A10 performance?", I wouldn't have given him an A. And you may choose to weigh that portion of his job heavily enough to drag his entire grade down, which is your prerogative. I did not do that for reasons which I tried to articulate above and I do not think it's because of some blind love of UD (red and blue glasses). I feel like I am a pretty objective assessor of the program, but what I determine the success to be (and what I personally get out of it) may be completely different than the criterion you use, but no less valid.
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AC91 View Post
Depends how heavily you weigh that one aspect of what you are grading. I have certainly gotten A's in my life despite poor performance in a specific aspect of that class. I would agree there is room for improvement there for sure, and if the question was "How would you grade BG on his A10 performance?", I wouldn't have given him an A. And you may choose to weigh that portion of his job heavily enough to drag his entire grade down, which is your prerogative. I did not do that for reasons which I tried to articulate above and I do not think it's because of some blind love of UD (red and blue glasses). I feel like I am a pretty objective assessor of the program, but what I determine the success to be (and what I personally get out of it) may be completely different than the criterion you use, but no less valid.
Some people choose to emphasize the negative and downplay the positive with BG and emphasize the positive and downplay the negative with OP. I guess that is their prerogative.
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:18 PM
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3)Brian Gregory. Gregory has recruited exceedingly well at Dayton despite some problems finding a topflight point guard. His teams are athletic, tough and physical. Sure, the offense has been a sore spot at times, and Dayton still isnít a consistently good road team, but Gregoryís pluses far outweigh his minuses. I think he grew a ton as a coach last year and weíll see the fruits of it this season.

A B C? - doesn't amount to a hill of empty Beast cans to me...But, perhaps we can agree on the following?
* A head coach in any sport (college for this discussion) has many different responsibilities (recruiting, in-game coaching, staffing, ambassador of the program et.al.) and to be considered a successful head coach (A), he or she MUST do a majority of these things very well (A)...And chances are that if he or she does most of them at an A level, success will follow.

Therefore, given that a coach has more to consider than a simple overall grade, what matters most to me is that BG continues to get A's in the things he does well, and that he improves on those things where he needs some work.

Given the opinion at the top of my post, IMO it is no small thing that BG's teams don't play well on the road and that he has had very little success in the A-10. So, he gets some A's, some B's, and a couple C's for his total report card. And I'd imagine that BG, more than anyone, knows where his game needs improvement and that he's gonna work his tail off in that phase of his game, which should translate into more succees for the Flyers.

IMO, what matters most is BG's improving on the parts of his game that don't warrant an A.
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Some people choose to emphasize the negative and downplay the positive with BG and emphasize the positive and downplay the negative with OP. I guess that is their prerogative.
Watch it Longtime, OP is a freakin' God. He took a toad, gave it a big kiss, and turned it into a prince. I still give him the same B that I give BG though. A's are reserved for the Donohers and Blackburns since to me an A is not for "very good", but rather "excellent".
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:43 PM
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Facts vs Hope

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Old 10-07-2010, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by masonflyer View Post
Watch it Longtime, OP is a freakin' God. He took a toad, gave it a big kiss, and turned it into a prince. I still give him the same B that I give BG though. A's are reserved for the Donohers and Blackburns since to me an A is not for "very good", but rather "excellent".
I have said many times that OP rebuilt the program from almost nothing, and for that I will be forever grateful. But after he rebuilt the program he lost to Detroit at home in the NIT, lost to Tennessee Tech at home in the NIT, lost as a #4 seed in the NCAA, never won an NCAA game, and left the cupboard bare (after Ramod, KW, and Finn) with players whom I don't need to name again. I would give him a B. They both have their positives and negatives. OP rebuilt the program and went to five post-seasons in nine years, but didn't do too well once he got there. BG has issues winning in the A-10, but has gone to four post-seasons in seven years with a win in the NCAA (the first since 1990) and an NIT Championship. I give the edge to BG (B+ to B) because we are in a better position right now than we were when OP left.
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  #167  
Old 10-07-2010, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SideshowBob View Post
That is a completely bizarre addition to this thread.
If you need subtitles to keep up, maybe you should go back to Spongebob.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:33 AM
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The BG topic is not overkill. At present BG is Dayton basketball.

NOTE* two contexts:

1) Dayton as a consistent (say top 20) program nationally.

2) Dayton as a solid A-10 (non-power nationally).

For #1: not making an NCAA this coming year tells me Dayton is not the venue, or BG is not the coach, or some combo of both.

For #2: maybe Dayton is this (no shame), and I'll adjust expectations.

Saying without derision: Perhaps I'm behind the curve, and the 'A' givers have already intelligently acceded to #2.
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Old 10-08-2010, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Would the person who gave BG a C please be man (or woman) enough to explain your reasoning.
Would the people who gave BG an A please be man (or woman) enough to explain your reasoning?

An A??? 7th place in the A10 the last three out of four years. An A? I wish you people were grading me in college.

I'm not totally hating on the guy...on a real scale, I give him a B-, but with that not available, he was closer to a B than a C for me.

Come on....to get an A, you would have to finish in the top half of the conference more than one time in the last four years.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Buster Goode View Post
Would the people who gave BG an A please be man (or woman) enough to explain your reasoning?

An A??? 7th place in the A10 the last three out of four years. An A? I wish you people were grading me in college.

I'm not totally hating on the guy...on a real scale, I give him a B-, but with that not available, he was closer to a B than a C for me.

Come on....to get an A, you would have to finish in the top half of the conference more than one time in the last four years.

It is 7 days and 164 posts in this thread since I asked for an explanation. Many people have stated why they gave BG an A. Some have great points, some not so great. Ain't America great, we all get our own opinions.

Since you quoted me, I assume your aiming your post at me. So, for the record, I gave BG a B. Would be a B+ if we added + and - to the poll. Just do not see how you can call him "average", which most on here view a C to be.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:25 PM
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I did my provoking and goading, and I finally voted just now. 'B'.

Now I won't have some 'splaining' to do to Buster.

I'll add a teacher's note to my 'B'. 'G' for good/great effort.
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  #172  
Old 10-09-2010, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
It is 7 days and 164 posts in this thread since I asked for an explanation. Many people have stated why they gave BG an A. Some have great points, some not so great. Ain't America great, we all get our own opinions.

Since you quoted me, I assume your aiming your post at me. So, for the record, I gave BG a B. Would be a B+ if we added + and - to the poll. Just do not see how you can call him "average", which most on here view a C to be.
Sorry, don't have time to read 170 posts...

Plus, I don't see anywhere where I called BG "average". Not sure if that was directed at me. He's above average in my book. As I stated, I gave him a B.

The attacks on people who try to be objective and grounded in their assessments of this program is why I have curbed my UD Pride appettite by at least 80%.

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  #173  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:34 AM
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Oh well

I am not sure how many people will read 170 posts to hear my rhetoric, but this thread is both enlightening and bewildering. There is an extreme division within this passionate fan base as to what success looks like in terms of a single season, a coach's record and most importantly the program as a whole.

One common theme was the excellence of BG as a recruiter, which I think is a slight overstatement. There are as many complete bombs (Desmond, Stafford, Stephen T, Alvarez, Thiago C) as there are stunning success stories (Roberts, MJ, CW, CJ). I will take your hate willingly for this position, but the credit for CW and CJ is never tempered with equal credit for the duds.

Seems like a good man, solid representative of the school, runs a clean program who seems to have the program in a steady, gradual rise. That said, he has one NCAA win, an NIT championship that signifies a lost season of promise, no A 10 glory and a ton of wins against Prairie View and the like. Smells like a low B, high C to me.
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Pikaar Modeling Agency
One common theme was the excellence of BG as a recruiter, which I think is a slight overstatement. There are as many complete bombs (Desmond, Stafford, Stephen T, Alvarez, Thiago C) as there are stunning success stories
Not sure how you define a complete bomb. Some of these guys were good reserves (remember ST's play against x when Lowery went out?), but even in BG's system, there will be players who want double figure minutes and won't get them.

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Old 10-10-2010, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Pikaar Modeling Agency View Post
One common theme was the excellence of BG as a recruiter, which I think is a slight overstatement. There are as many complete bombs (Desmond, Stafford, Stephen T, Alvarez, Thiago C) as there are stunning success stories (Roberts, MJ, CW, CJ). I will take your hate willingly for this position, but the credit for CW and CJ is never tempered with equal credit for the duds.
I don't think any coach in the A10 could stand against that criticism over a 7 year period if those guys are considered a strike against a coach. I think BG's recruiting is well respected outside of the circle of UD fans.
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  #176  
Old 10-10-2010, 10:02 AM
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Exactly

If you have to point to a single event to qualify the guy as a legit A 10 caliber player, then you have answered your own question.

To Fudd, I agree that he is a good recruiter. I just think it is somewhat over stated. Take a look at the 22 guys that he is responsible for that have played at UD to date. There are about 5 or 6 great successes, 5 or 6 bombs, and 10 role players. Tell me where I am wrong in that breakdown, and I will concede that he is not deserving of a B in his recruiting. An objective view of the whole recruiting picture would reveal the shortcomings, not just the success. Similar to comparing overall records buoyed by our dodgy non-con to the failures year on year in the A 10.
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Pikaar Modeling Agency View Post
If you have to point to a single event to qualify the guy as a legit A 10 caliber player, then you have answered your own question.

To Fudd, I agree that he is a good recruiter. I just think it is somewhat over stated. Take a look at the 22 guys that he is responsible for that have played at UD to date. There are about 5 or 6 great successes, 5 or 6 bombs, and 10 role players. Tell me where I am wrong in that breakdown, and I will concede that he is not deserving of a B in his recruiting. An objective view of the whole recruiting picture would reveal the shortcomings, not just the success. Similar to comparing overall records buoyed by our dodgy non-con to the failures year on year in the A 10.
You might feel that BG's recruiting is overstated by some person or group of persons and that is your prerogative. I would simply say that I think any team in the A10 (outside of X who is recruiting equally as well and whose fans claim to despise anything to do with UD.) would have happily taken the quality of our recruiting over the last 3-4 years of BG. When I see chat from other A10 fans, it's a point that I see often when discussing the quality of BG as a coach.

It did take BG time to bring the level of the recruiting up and he has openly stated that each recruiting class must be built on the successes of the previous classes. When you consider where we have come from the last 2-3 recruiting classes of OP, the improvement has been significant in my mind.

This is the general sentiment of fans that I see when I read about BG's recruiting, and I don't consider it overstated. It's just my opinion.
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  #178  
Old 10-10-2010, 10:52 AM
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Closer than you think

Fudd, my opinion is closer to your own than you might think. Gregory was put in a great position for one season and a horrible one for 2 to 3 after taking over. People fell in love with the little guy for taking an OP based team to some nice accomplishments, and just as many fell out of love during the challenging 2 or 3 years after that initial success. I firmly believe he is bringing in better players now than he did in the past, not named Brian Roberts, and will continue to gradually improve the program. I would give him a grade of incomplete right now, as I think he needs a few more years of incremental growth to show what he has accomplished. But that wasn't an option in the poll.

At some point, the recruiting has to yield equal results on the court. Using your own anlaysis of our recruiting compared to the A 10, our A 10 results should have been superior to anyone other than Xavier in the past 3 to 4 years? That simply isn't true, but I am optimistic that a few more years will lead that to be the case.

Appreciate the respectful dialogue by the way. Doesn't happen all that often.
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  #179  
Old 10-10-2010, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Pikaar Modeling Agency
There are about 5 or 6 great successes, 5 or 6 bombs, and 10 role players. Tell me where I am wrong in that breakdown, and I will concede that he is not deserving of a B in his recruiting.
Originally Posted by Pikaar Modeling Agency
That said, he has one NCAA win, an NIT championship that signifies a lost season of promise, no A 10 glory and a ton of wins against Prairie View and the like. Smells like a low B, high C to me.
I could understand if you argued that his recruits have had holes in their games and haven't been as good as people thought leading to elevated expectations; or if you argued that he had very good recruits but they have underperformed the second half of the season - however, it seems you're arguing it both ways by saying the recruits aren't as good as we think AND they aren't as successful as they should be with the talent they have

If I thought BG only had brought 6 players better than role players to UD, I would give him an A+ for bench coaching for winning as many games as he has, including one in the NCAA tournament and against teams like West Virginia, UNC, Louisville, UC, and Pitt

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Old 10-10-2010, 04:32 PM
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What I like about BG's recruiting is his ability to spot talent early on. In the past OP and before him O'Brien wouldn't even try to recruit certain top 100 or top 150 players because they didn't think they had a chance. Now, if you notice, BG is in on the same players that Xavier is and we all know the recent success Xavier has had. Now if BG can turn it around and have better success in the A-10 conference games and carry it over to success in the NCAA Tourney we can all give him a higher grade instead of an incomplete.

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  #181  
Old 10-10-2010, 06:08 PM
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Then if he is such a good recruiter ... his player development must be in the "D" to low "C" range.

For the past 6 seasons BG has not had an all around Center or Point Guard. He never developed anyone at those positions and has not developed one NBA player in his tenure.

You cannot win if you either ... A) Don't recruit well or B) Don't develop well or C) Cannot coach ... well, UD has finished 7th or worse 4 times in the A-10, has been to the tournament 1 time in 6 years (not counting year one). Something is going on here.

I like BG and so far over 7 Years I think he has been slightly above average with total results. Resulting in a very fair "C+" grade.

Maybe he "eyes" talent ... but he either cannot mold that talent or talent in your guys' eyes are running, jumping and dunking. We need complete ball players.

Let's hope CW takes that step this year, CJ develops a right hand and Parker and Staten shake that dreaded PG spot at Dayton.

Let's Go Flyers!
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  #182  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ClearTheRunwayForWLJ View Post
You cannot win if you either ... A) Don't recruit well or B) Don't develop well or C) Cannot coach ... well, UD has finished 7th or worse 4 times in the A-10, has been to the tournament 1 time in 6 years (not counting year one). Something is going on here.
You can't have it both ways. You have to count his first NCAA. If you are going to blame him for not making the NCAA then you have to give him credit for making the NCAA, even with OP's players. If he is as bad a coach as some have said he is, then he would have screwed up that first year and not made the NCAA (like they say he did this past year), even with good players.
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  #183  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:58 PM
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I really dont get how BG gets the reputation as a great recruiter, and bad in game coach. No one EVER brings up the plays he calls after a timeout. Every single time after a timeout, he sets up a hell of a play to get us 2 points.

Jay Bilas always talks about how BG is the best in the country after a timeout, but yet, we still think he is a bad coach.
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  #184  
Old 10-10-2010, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ChicagoFlyer View Post
I really dont get how BG gets the reputation as a great recruiter, and bad in game coach. No one EVER brings up the plays he calls after a timeout. Every single time after a timeout, he sets up a hell of a play to get us 2 points.

Jay Bilas always talks about how BG is the best in the country after a timeout, but yet, we still think he is a bad coach.
No "We" don't. Some do and they are not bashfull about letting us know where they stand. They are entitled to their opinion, but are far from the majority of fans.
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  #185  
Old 10-10-2010, 10:20 PM
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I did not say he was a bad coach or bad recruiter. I said he was above average.

I just think you have to look at factual information.

No coach finishes 7th or worse in their conference four of their seven years and can be considered an "A" recruiter, an "A" coach, or an "A" player developer.

For me it goes ... B recruiter, C+ coach and D player development. He still has a lot to work on.

I think this thread has run the course. But obviously people think I am insane for calling out coach above average and not excellent in his body of work, so I better bow down.
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Old 10-11-2010, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
You can't have it both ways. You have to count his first NCAA. If you are going to blame him for not making the NCAA then you have to give him credit for making the NCAA, even with OP's players. If he is as bad a coach as some have said he is, then he would have screwed up that first year and not made the NCAA (like they say he did this past year), even with good players.
Jim O'Brien didn't screw up his first year but he was a horrible coach at UD.
To be fair why not simply forget BG first 3 years and evaluate him from that point on. His record in A10 play is not what it should be.
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Old 10-11-2010, 09:16 AM
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I gave him an A and here is why:
I am not a wins and losses guy. You can play incredible defense on someone, but you cannot prevent him from making a backward 35 footer over his head. You can be in position for every rebound, but you cannot prevent the ball from taking a crazy bounce. You can make the extra pass and find the open man, but you cannot make the shot go in every time. If you do these things, you'll probably win more often than not, but no matter how good you play, you can't keep the other team from playing better.

This is where I think Dayton is, they do most of these things very good most of the time. 2 years ago it resulted in many close victories, and last year there were many times the open shots didn't fall, and opponents made spectacular shots.

When I also take into account the graduation rate and the type fo gentlemen he recruits, I come up with an A, but I can understand the High C's and B's, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Now could someone please explain the D just so I can try to understand it?
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  #188  
Old 10-11-2010, 10:36 AM
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I believe the grade that BG receives is directly related to the perception of the grader. The broader a person looks at the performance of BG the higher the grade. I concur that there is more to it than wins and losses, however some do not, or minimize other considerations. Granted if we had OB type seasons then wins and losses are more important, but that is not the case. We are competitive on a national level and the outlook is far from dim. BG creates excitement for the program and a high level of interest from the fans, including UDPriders. As in life, not all will be happy at any given moment, but overall I have a real good feeling about the upcoming season and the program in general.
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Old 10-11-2010, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
Now could someone please explain the D just so I can try to understand it?
tman somehow must have infiltrated the system in order to cast a vote.
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  #190  
Old 10-11-2010, 04:34 PM
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Getting a university to 'sweet sixteen' half the years would more than cancel out questionable regular season showings.

IMO post season is just about everything that matters.

In my two seasons, BG won the WVU NCAA opener and an NIT title. Had he not won the latter I would have graded 'C'; conversely if he had managed a berth and 'sweet sixteen' I would have graded 'A'.

In real estate it's "location, location, location". In this, it's "post season, post season, post season" (and sub NCAA Tournament for post season).



A hungry university without NCAA Tournament exposure asks, "Are we moving
towards that?".

UD can answer in the affirmative, BG is to be NCAA Tournament caliber IMO.
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
Getting a university to 'sweet sixteen' half the years would more than cancel out questionable regular season showings.
If BG took UD to the Sweet Sixteen every other year his grade would be A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
If BG took UD to the Sweet Sixteen every other year his grade would be A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yeah! AND, if BG is getting an 'A' now, (following Rollo's sentiment),
his grade would be A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++infinite.

Whoa, I do need this season to commence.
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  #193  
Old 10-11-2010, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
You might feel that BG's recruiting is overstated by some person or group of persons and that is your prerogative. I would simply say that I think any team in the A10 (outside of X who is recruiting equally as well and whose fans claim to despise anything to do with UD.) would have happily taken the quality of our recruiting over the last 3-4 years of BG. When I see chat from other A10 fans, it's a point that I see often when discussing the quality of BG as a coach.
If it is this good, then why do we have so many problems on the road in the A-10? I gave the guy a decent rating in the recruiting category, but it is quite simply because it is one of his better qualities compared to the rest. So far he has recruited good athletes, not so many good fundamentally sound basketball players. There is a difference.
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  #194  
Old 10-12-2010, 12:10 AM
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WH, of A10 board fame, has been chatting a lot about Brian Gregory lately, spurred forth by the objections of Xavier fans who generally don't like to see him ranked so high in WH's coaching pecking order (3rd in A10 over last 4 years, see previous WH quotes in this thread). I find his observations fascinating, and right in line with this thread. I pulled some key parts of some of his recent posts that might be of interest here:

WH

Gregory, in my view, has been hurt by his failure to recruit top-notch point guards. Now he has one. And I am puzzled why anyone would discount what he did last spring, becoming the first coach running an A-10 team to win an NIT title. Sure, it’s great to make the NCAA, but Gregory now has a major accomplishment to point to.
Plus he has won an NCAA tournament game. Baron and Mooney haven’t.
and more WH.....

It’s not a question of love for BG, guyfawkes. I am comparing him to other A-10 coaches over the past four years.

By that standard, he compares favorably. Martelli’s program has taken a tumble. Jim Baron has never won an NCAA game or gotten Rhody into the tournament DESPITE winning 89 games in the past four years. Mooney has yet to win an NCAA game or duplicate Dayton’s A-10 success. Rick Majerus is clearly a better coach, but again, Dayton has outperformed SLU since Big Rick took over. Mack might turn out to be a better coach, but talk to me in another year or two.

So who’s left?

I give BG high marks for recruiting the highest caliber of talent that Dayton has enjoyed in the A-10.

I give him high marks for producing a team that is athletic and physical and very willing to defend and rebound (look at Richmond’s rebounding prowess under Mooney).

I give him higher remarks relative to most other A-10 coaches for actually winning an NCAA tournament game as well as winning an NIT title. He grew a lot as a coach last year, in my view.

Is it BG’s fault that he has only now recruited a topflight PG? It certainly is.

Still, if I were hiring a coach as an AD, and I had to pick a current A-10 coach, BG would be high on my list.

Let’s look at it another way. If I cloned a roster and gave each A-10 coach the exact same players, who would I hire first?

The top of my list would look like this:

1)Dunphy
2)Majerus
3)Martelli
4)Gregory
5)Mooney
6)Mack (because I need to see more).
7)Baron
8)Hobbs
9)Giannini
And here is some more WH.....

Keep in mind, BG's teams have not always been run and gun. To utilize Warren and the recent roster, however, that was the way to go.

I actually consider that a sign of excellent coaching. BG designed an offense to suit his players and cover up their flaws. The most recent edition of the Flyers wasn't meant to be a grind it out team in the half court, not with a nonshooting PG like Warren and the lack of an established post game. Yet good teams could expose Dayton, and they did.

Solution for BG is to get better players, especially on the wing. He seems to be doing that now.
link: http://www.basketballforum.com/atlan...coaches-5.html

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  #195  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
WH, of A10 board fame, has been chatting a lot about Brian Gregory lately............Let’s look at it another way. If I cloned a roster and gave each A-10 coach the exact same players, who would I hire first?

The top of my list would look like this:

1)Dunphy
2)Majerus
3)Martelli
4)Gregory
5)Mooney
6)Mack (because I need to see more).
7)Baron
8)Hobbs
9)Giannini
Sounds like a B to me? Not bad, in fact good, but certainly some room for improvement.

Let's look at this question another way - We strap BG to a lie detector, but not a normal lie detector, one that delivers a painful shock for every mendacious response (this done not for the entertainment of the BG bashers but to guard against 'coach-speak' and made for the press replies..something of a guarantee of an honest evaluation).

Now we ask him, "BG, what grade would you give BG for his coaching job to date as head of the UD basketball program?

My guess would be that he says B-. I'd bet a tidy sum that A never crosses his mind.

Last edited by Fudd; 10-12-2010 at 09:51 AM..
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  #196  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by UDBaby View Post
Sounds like a B to me? Not bad, in fact good, but certainly some room for improvement.

Let's look at this question another way - We strap BG to a lie detector, but not a normal lie detector, one that delivers a painful shock for every mendacious response (this done not for the entertainment of the BG bashers but to guard against 'coach-speak' and made for the press replies..something of a guarantee of an honest evaluation).

Now we ask him, "BG, what grade would you give BG for his coaching job to date as head of the UD basketball program?

My guess would be that he says B-. I'd bet a tidy sum that A never crosses his mind.
The ranking that you quoted above was based on all of those coaches hypothertically being given identical teams. I think WH gives him slightly higher releative grade based on his ability to recruit very well over the last 4 years compared to the other A10 coaches. I think, like most of us, WH's grading of BG is very dependent on the criteria and time frame that he chooses. Here is a link to the page with his original ranking of BG based on a 4 year sliding window.

http://www.basketballforum.com/atlan...coaches-3.html

WH seems to be ranking only A10 coaches against one another based on the last 4 years rather than BG against an idyllic model of coaching perfection. Mixing grading criteria is where this thread goes off track with the wild statements and endless arguments, IMO.

UDBaby, sorry for editing your post. I accidentally hit "edit" instead of "quote" when I responded.

Last edited by Fudd; 10-12-2010 at 10:06 AM..
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:14 AM
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This thread has more lives than Jason.
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  #198  
Old 10-12-2010, 01:31 PM
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I forgot how basketball knowledge deficient Xavier fans are. They are the spammers of basketball internet chat.
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by UDBaby View Post
Sounds like a B to me? Not bad, in fact good, but certainly some room for improvement.

Let's look at this question another way - We strap BG to a lie detector, but not a normal lie detector, one that delivers a painful shock for every mendacious response (this done not for the entertainment of the BG bashers but to guard against 'coach-speak' and made for the press replies..something of a guarantee of an honest evaluation).

Now we ask him, "BG, what grade would you give BG for his coaching job to date as head of the UD basketball program?

My guess would be that he says B-. I'd bet a tidy sum that A never crosses his mind.
That's an interesting way to make the point. Few coaches would dare give themselves an A.
B- seems about right for a BG self-evaluation.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Pikaar Modeling Agency View Post
. . . That said, he has one NCAA win, an NIT championship that signifies a lost season of promise, no A 10 glory and a ton of wins against Prairie View and the like. Smells like a low B, high C to me.
Just wondering - when did Prairie View join the Big East? And how come these posts extend the full width of my 24" monitor (makes 'em kinda hard to read).
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