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  #301  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
When UD was in the GMW it had no athletics "program"......just a failing men's BB team and a good FB team. That's what Ted Kissell faced.
Some might call 13-41 overall and 1-23 in conference in two years of the Great Midwest failing. Others might call it...well, if they called it anything other than failing or abysmal or disastrous they must have been drunk.
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  #302  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Northwest, the key point is that how well teams perform depends on the quality of the players they recruit and the coaches they are able to hire. Our AD will tell you that both HS recruits and coaches are enormously impressed by the quality of facilities. Really good facilities are a reflection of a school's commitment to athletics....is the school really a big-time player, etc. And even with our superb facilities we have a tough time recruiting top players.

A10 schools with high-school-like facilities find it almost impossible to bring in really good players...and that affects the way the team performs, of course. Sure, once in a while a Fordham or LaSalle will get lucky and land a star that was overlooked. But consistently solid performance from such schools is just about impossible. Coaching candidates and recruits come in and see really sub-standard facilities in comparison to what they see elsewhere....and what do you suppose they think? FU and LU and the likes have to settle for personal that can't do better somewhere else. That's why facilities are so important.
I somewhat agree with you, but in the case of LaSalle and St. Bonney, they seem to overachieve given what they have in term of facilities, so they are doing something well. Fordham is really the only program that can't do any better than the top 150 RPI wise. It think it was just about 4 years ago that LaSalle received an at large, and until the last five years, out did us with our superior facilities and they have been in the same gym since the 50s. I think it really comes down to the staff that they hire, more than the gym, although the latter matters.

The more I read this discussion (although I would love to see UC and UConn on the schedule), a two division A10 based on performance (relegate/promotion) would do wonders for the teams that have the right mix going. As long as we continue being successful, would play home and away with the top 7 teams (seems like 5 to 7 teams in the A10 are in the Top 100 of the RPI (other metric) annually) and only spend a little time with the ailing or rebuilding programs (6 of 18 games). If you are in the lower tier, you could still get an large by doing well in the OOC and dominating the lower tier and winning the games that matter against the upper tier teams. I think this would really boost the A10 forward by making things more competitive, especially against the middle of the pack A10 teams.
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  #303  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
When UD was in the GMW it had no athletics "program"......just a failing men's BB team and a good FB team. That's what Ted Kissell faced.

Ted is responsible for developing and implementing the first athletics strategy in UD's history and the outstanding athletics program we have today. UD has its legacy ADs like Baujan and Frericks....but no one's accomplishments rival those of Ted Kissell.
I would suggest that your description of our athletic program. or lack thereof lies at the feet of TF.
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  #304  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Absolutely. Respect the job Mark Schmidt has done immensely. The A10 really lucked out when Boston College didn't hire Schmidt.

The A10 is fortunate to have some schools that have coaches who are better than maybe some of these programs "deserve" -- Schmidt, Martelli, McKillop, and now Dambrot. I think when you look at other basketball-driven leagues like the MVC or WCC vs the A10, it's the quality of coaches that have separated the A10 more than anything. It's easy to look at resources and amenities, but those really don't tell the story.
I have tons of respect for Schmidt too, and agree he has done a fantastic job with what he has to work with.

My comments about SBU have nothing to do with Schmidt, but the program and school as a whole. As has been pointed out, their above 500 record out of conference is due to the cupcakes they schedule and crappy RPI yearly. Yes, SBU is better than Fordham or LaSalle, congratulations, but still not who UD should associate with in conference affiliation if you want to look at improving long term.

Out of 351 NCAA schools, 68 make the big dance yearly, and another 32 make the NIT. I would never be happy if my team makes the NCAA 10% of the time, and the post season only 20% of the time. If the A-10 is to be a top 7 conference, that means you need to have nothing but programs who are consistently in the top 100 in the country at least 50% of the time, if not more.
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  #305  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:49 PM
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True

Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
I would suggest that your description of our athletic program. or lack thereof lies at the feet of TF.
That's true. UD's definition of an athletics "program" was the men's BB team. TF was responsible for the Arena...incredibly farsighted. But that was pretty much it. Of course, the administration plays a role re what an AD is able to do. I have no idea re how much support TF got or asked for from the UD administration.

Bro Ray must have realized that UD had no athletics program when he hired Ted K....and Ted got the by-in and support he needed to create what we have today. It wasn't easy for Ted...took time....but he pulled it off.

In my opinion, Kissell has not received the recognition he deserves.
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  #306  
Old 04-11-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthwestFlyer View Post
One of the problems is, is that the A10 has too many teams that don't keep up the consistency and drop off for a few years before fielding another good run, and a lot of times only get to the NIT when they finally get it together.
That's the problem when you don't have the facilities and don't invest in the program. While resources don't guarantee success they sure do enhance the likelihood of achieving and maintaining it. Programs that lack resources tend not to be programs. They hit a good recruit or two, have a good coach or two, and when either or both move on they gravitate back to the bottom or to mediocrity.

Plus programs that are funded and have resources tend to have more fans, which can translate to larger TV audience and more money.

If I were putting together a new conference, which is likely what would happen if UD and VCU did something, I'd put far more emphasis on facilities, resources and commitment than I would won/loss records.
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  #307  
Old 04-11-2017, 02:14 PM
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My bad. I re-opened this thread . . .

but where oh where is that emoji of the guy beating the dead horse???
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  #308  
Old 04-11-2017, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
That's the problem when you don't have the facilities and don't invest in the program. While resources don't guarantee success they sure do enhance the likelihood of achieving and maintaining it. Programs that lack resources tend not to be programs. They hit a good recruit or two, have a good coach or two, and when either or both move on they gravitate back to the bottom or to mediocrity.

Plus programs that are funded and have resources tend to have more fans, which can translate to larger TV audience and more money.

If I were putting together a new conference, which is likely what would happen if UD and VCU did something, I'd put far more emphasis on facilities, resources and commitment than I would won/loss records.
Seems like the AAC would be a better bet at this time than the A10? Much bigger venues and resources than the A10 for sure.
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  #309  
Old 04-11-2017, 02:49 PM
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Gotcha covered...
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  #310  
Old 04-11-2017, 03:33 PM
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This might have already been covered...

Is Wichita State getting an equal share of the AAC tv revenue?

Does football-only member Navy get an equal share of the tv revenue?

The internet says that each AAC school gets about $2 or $3 million per year in tv revenue, while, per a 2012 deal, each A10 school gets about $350k per year in tv revenue.

I have no idea where the $2 or $3 million figure comes from, the AAC signed a 7 year, $126 million tv deal in 2013. (126/7)/11=$1.6 million per year.



http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextr...9bb0f59aa.html





http://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012...etball-schools:



Sources close to the deal say that the 16-school conference will earn $40 million over the eight years, or split $5 million a season. The A-10 currently has TV deals with both ESPN and CBS Sports Network. The NBC Sports Group is a new player in college sports and is actively acquiring new products, including a recent deal with the Colonial Athletic Association.

$5 million per year, split between 14 teams means each school will get a little more than $350,000 per year from the television contract.



There are 12 AAC football teams, including Navy, and 12 AAC basketball teams, including Wichita State.

Last edited by ud2; 04-11-2017 at 03:56 PM..
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  #311  
Old 04-11-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Thats funny, what I see is a team that each year plays a very weak OOC. Playing a weak OOC is why when they have a good year and tie for first in the A10 they get left out of the NCAA Tournament.
So you'd prefer they schedule tougher, take some nice checks and go 3-8 in the non-conference further eroding the conference strength as a whole. I'm trying to point out that Bonaventure is not the problem with the A10.

Ideally you'll have 3-4 programs consistently competing for conf championships. The next tier are programs that have a modest floor (typically around .500 in down years) and cyclically compete for conference championships/post-season play. The problem with the A10 is they have too many programs that just bottom out and stay there. In the best-case scenario the bottom of the A10 would be reserved for programs that had bad luck with injury or suffered coaching changes. The bottom would churn towards the middle and the middle would churn towards the top. The top would generally stay there.

The number of bids the conference receives is heavily correlated to its non-conference winning percentage. Most A10 teams can't afford to buy as many home wins as Dayton and many of the teams in the BE et al do.
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  #312  
Old 04-11-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
So you'd prefer they schedule tougher, take some nice checks and go 3-8 in the non-conference further eroding the conference strength as a whole. I'm trying to point out that Bonaventure is not the problem with the A10.

Ideally you'll have 3-4 programs consistently competing for conf championships. The next tier are programs that have a modest floor (typically around .500 in down years) and cyclically compete for conference championships/post-season play. The problem with the A10 is they have too many programs that just bottom out and stay there. In the best-case scenario the bottom of the A10 would be reserved for programs that had bad luck with injury or suffered coaching changes. The bottom would churn towards the middle and the middle would churn towards the top. The top would generally stay there.

The number of bids the conference receives is heavily correlated to its non-conference winning percentage. Most A10 teams can't afford to buy as many home wins as Dayton and many of the teams in the BE et al do.
I'd prefer they play less than 16 schools with RPI's above 200. I don't think they should play a Davidson like schedule, but playing more 50-150 RPI schools isn't much to ask. I understand that some of those were A10 schools, but they often play very weak OOC.

Last edited by m21eagle45; 04-11-2017 at 04:41 PM..
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  #313  
Old 04-11-2017, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
I still cannot understand the interest in a conference where football wags the dog.
One might argue that football wags the dog for the entire NCAA. UD may be one of the top non-FBS basketball schools, and yet, in many ways, we're consider by many as being lower on totem poll than mid-tier Power 5 schools.
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  #314  
Old 04-11-2017, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Why is the AAC money so much better than the A10 money?

Market size, attendance size/fan base size, and football I guess.
Because it's a league of big-time national private and public universities in large, growing markets.
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
Because it's a league of big-time national private and public universities in large, growing markets.
I have only seen references to the money difference - nothing concrete. Also, no reference to loss of NCAA basketball unit money. IMHOP, whatever variances exist are due to football money. Not sure how Wichita shares - if at all - in that. My view is that Wichita was mostly interested in getting out of a dying MVC.

As soon as UC and UConn bolt the AAC, the conference will resemble C-USA.
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  #316  
Old 04-11-2017, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
This might have already been covered...

Is Wichita State getting an equal share of the AAC tv revenue?

Does football-only member Navy get an equal share of the tv revenue?

The internet says that each AAC school gets about $2 or $3 million per year in tv revenue, while, per a 2012 deal, each A10 school gets about $350k per year in tv revenue.

I have no idea where the $2 or $3 million figure comes from, the AAC signed a 7 year, $126 million tv deal in 2013. (126/7)/11=$1.6 million per year.



http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextr...9bb0f59aa.html





http://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012...etball-schools:



Sources close to the deal say that the 16-school conference will earn $40 million over the eight years, or split $5 million a season. The A-10 currently has TV deals with both ESPN and CBS Sports Network. The NBC Sports Group is a new player in college sports and is actively acquiring new products, including a recent deal with the Colonial Athletic Association.

$5 million per year, split between 14 teams means each school will get a little more than $350,000 per year from the television contract.



There are 12 AAC football teams, including Navy, and 12 AAC basketball teams, including Wichita State.
Wichita & Navy get prorated amounts
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  #317  
Old 04-11-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
I have only seen references to the money difference - nothing concrete. Also, no reference to loss of NCAA basketball unit money. IMHOP, whatever variances exist are due to football money. Not sure how Wichita shares - if at all - in that. My view is that Wichita was mostly interested in getting out of a dying MVC.

As soon as UC and UConn bolt the AAC, the conference will resemble C-USA.
where are they going? Big12 vetted them both last year & decided to pass on expansion because they're no good candidates.

The basketball only cut in the AAC is bigger than the A10.
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  #318  
Old 04-11-2017, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Wichita & Navy get prorated amounts
How much is Wichita getting? $800k per year(half of $1.6 million)?
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  #319  
Old 04-11-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
How much is Wichita getting? $800k per year(half of $1.6 million)?
haven't seen the specifics that I can recall, maybe xubrew would know
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:06 PM
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There are always rumors that UCONN will join up with the BE as the 11th team to allow a 20 game round robin and find a conference to admit them as football only associate member.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
where are they going? Big12 vetted them both last year & decided to pass on expansion because they're no good candidates.

The basketball only cut in the AAC is bigger than the A10.
I predict one or both will leave the AAC within the next 5 years.

The TV money difference - can it be quantified? - probably does not offset the loss of NCAA unit money.
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
I predict one or both will leave the AAC within the next 5 years.

The TV money difference - can it be quantified? - probably does not offset the loss of NCAA unit money.
I will guess that Wichita will now make $500k per year more from tv than UD.

I will also average out a NCAA unit from the last 4 years to be worth $260,000.

And I think we earned 8 units over the past 4 years.

260k X 8 =$2.08 million. I think we keep 75% of our units.

That leaves about $1.56 million.

We would break even in 3 years just on our units alone.



Maybe the rest of the A10 contributes about 4 units per year.

.25(X 260k x4 units)x3 years=780k

So, maybe overall we break even in 4.5 years.



And that is ignoring our share of whatever units we, and other AAC teams, earn in the AAC in those 4.5 years.


It seems like a no-brainer to join the AAC if invited.

Last edited by ud2; 04-12-2017 at 12:54 AM..
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  #323  
Old 04-12-2017, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
There are always rumors that UCONN will join up with the BE as the 11th team to allow a 20 game round robin and find a conference to admit them as football only associate member.
The problem is, not many conferences, especially on the East Coast are open to that. The MAC won't take a football only member, they have already kicked out UMass because they wouldn't commit to more than football. No P5 would take them as football only. I think this rumor was started by BE fans and really has no legs. There just are not many options for UConn. Any other conference would be a huge downgrade in football and I do not see that happening.
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Old 04-12-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post


It seems like a no-brainer to join the AAC if invited.
It is. The problem is we haven't been.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
I'd prefer they play less than 16 schools with RPI's above 200. I don't think they should play a Davidson like schedule, but playing more 50-150 RPI schools isn't much to ask. I understand that some of those were A10 schools, but they often play very weak OOC.
They should only schedule tougher if they think they have legit chance at NCAA. If they upgrade their schedule and lose those games all it does is hurt the conference. Bonaventure is actually following the model that should be used for any team in the A10 that isn't competing for post-season (which is at least half in any given year). Schedule 8-10 non-conference wins by any means necessary.

Davidson scheduled like they had a chance at NCAA this year, the only problem is the lost every one of their legit non-conf games. They played 4 top100 pom teams and lost them all (Clemson, Charleston, NC and Kansas). If they punch 2 out of those 4 they're probably in at-large conversation in Feb. I'm fine with that. Take your shots if you think your team merits the opportunity.

The issue is programs like Fordham and Duquesne aren't good enough to win that many non-conf games no matter what they schedule.

Bonaventure also traditionally plays Niagra, Canisius, Buffalo and Siena home and home as regional rivalry games. This year, their schedule was particularly poor due to the Lone Star Showcase they entered that had them playing Little Rock, C Mich and Pepperdine.
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Old 04-12-2017, 11:43 AM
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Kudos to OSU Flyer for posting this on another thread

Pre-season number for next year, more predicted proof the A-10 is slowly sinking. Remember, just a few years back the argument was we were as good as the New Big East.


http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30856

Ken Pomeroy‏Verified account @kenpomeroy Apr 7

Just checked my preseason ratings by conf. Kind of interesting. 1. B12, 2. BE, 3. SEC, 4. ACC, 5. B10, 6. P12, 7. AAC, 8. MW, 9. A10 10. MVC

That's the MVC sans Wichita
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:11 PM
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And the vacuum in the MVC is filled. Valpo moving from the Horizon to the MVC. Probably about the best move the MVC could have made.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...aiso-crusaders
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthwestFlyer View Post
And the vacuum in the MVC is filled. Valpo moving from the Horizon to the MVC. Probably about the best move the MVC could have made.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...aiso-crusaders
Well, effect this has on Dayton is they now have them in their football conference.
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