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  #101  
Old 03-24-2017, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
What about UC and UConn leaving someday? Is it still a good deal?
I think it would be in the sense that if VCU also leaves, then you have a core of three very good programs that would be in a good position to join together. It isn't so much joining the AAC. It's getting out of the A10's stupid media deal and leadership, and getting more money, and getting more exposure, and aligning with VCU and Wichita State.

There is certainly no guarantee that this opportunity will even present itself, and if it does UD can easily talk themselves out of it if they choose to. As for Wichita State, I think it's a good move and apparently so do they. That's not to say that there is no risk involved at all, but even if UC and UConn do leave, and they are replaced with say...Old Dominion and UAB (or whoever) then it's still probably a more lucrative and more competitive league with more exposure than the current makeup of the MVC.
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  #102  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:01 PM
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These conferences are fluid. It has slowed down right now, but something will start the next chain reaction. None of this is forever. Maybe Dayton should have not joined the A10 since Temple, X, Charlotte and Butler left. You can be proactive or get stuck with what is left. So WSU joins the AAC, and some teams leave, and all of a sudden they will get invited to the BE or the A10 or the new conference.
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  #103  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:31 PM
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Everyone points out what a disaster the Old Big East was.

1. It's not like we haven't seen conferences fold that where every member in the league played football.

and

2. Who would actually be better off today had they not joined the Big East?? Had Cincinnati stayed in CUSA, would they be better off today?? Or Louisville?? Or...Marquette?? I know the old Big East folded, but really, who came out worse off than they would have been had they decided not to join??
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  #104  
Old 03-24-2017, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
These conferences are fluid. It has slowed down right now, but something will start the next chain reaction. None of this is forever. Maybe Dayton should have not joined the A10 since Temple, X, Charlotte and Butler left. You can be proactive or get stuck with what is left. So WSU joins the AAC, and some teams leave, and all of a sudden they will get invited to the BE or the A10 or the new conference.
In my opinion, the ideal scenario is a conference that meets all of the following:

Great Basketball
Brand Name Schools
East Coast Presence
Natural Rivalries
Good/lucrative TV Deal

Big East meets all of that criteria. That's the dream scenario.

A10 lacks natural rivalries and good TV deal and has lost some brand names.

AAC gives you natural rivalry (Bearcats), east coast presence (UCONN, Temple) plus Memphis, SMU, Tulsa and Houston who I think are very committed to basketball and whom I trust more than 75% of the A10 to be solid in the next decade. Then add Wichita State to the mix? Oh, and throw in a better TV deal...

Honestly, I think the A10 and AAC are about equal right now, but I think with Wichita State, the scales tip to the AAC's favor. I feel like that conference is trending up, and I'm just not as confident that the A10 is doing anything but tread water right now.

The more I think about it, the more I think the AAC would be a better option if the AAC can be a conference that serves the best interest of basketball-only members. That's a big if though...
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  #105  
Old 03-24-2017, 02:15 PM
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Guys, you are debating a moot point, we aren't going anywhere in the forseeable future. Believe the current admin. is on top of the situation, just not a lot, if any, options out there. Makes no sense for the NBE to expant, they are fine the way they are. AAC is comparable to the A-10, but should a couple football schools bolt then the situation changes. As far as the A-10, the weakest teams show no interst in upgrading their programs. Hells bells, two of them can't even get a coach who wants to coach them.
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  #106  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:46 PM
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UC and UConn

Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
What about UC and UConn leaving someday? Is it still a good deal?
And for certain, there is no higher priority..none....than for UC and UConn to leave the AAC for a Power 5 conference. Indeed, it is an absolute imperative financially.

We holler because the A10 TV money is poor. UC and UConn are in a position of subsidizing their athletics programs by $30-40 million each year because of FB. Where would you rather be?

Don't get near FBS FB in any way or form. Any conference with FBS FB members other than the Power 5s is funamentally unstable.
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  #107  
Old 03-24-2017, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
What about UC and UConn leaving someday? Is it still a good deal?
AAC only has 1 glorified HS gym
AAC averages 1400 more butts in the seats per game versus A10
AAC has better TV deal (according to other posts on here)
AAC appears to have more programs dedicated to building and maintaining a solid basketball program.

Oh, add to the list- To the best of my knowledge, AAC has programs that people want to coach at!


If VCU would go, we have no choice if invited but to join them and WSU in the AAC

And to answer the question about UC & UConn, I say yes the AAC is a better deal if they both leave if we have VCU and WSU in the new league.

How about adding St. Louis (to replace UC or UCONN) who I think next year will prove they have recovered from the Crews years to the mix.

Several WSU fans mentioned Bradley as being a program on the upswing with the resources to be and stay good.

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  #108  
Old 03-24-2017, 07:08 PM
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Bradley puts butts in the seats and has a rich history, but only 3 top-100 KenPom finishes in the last 15 years (compare for instance Belmont and Murray State at 5 and Valpo at 6) and not a big market. I could be wrong on this, but I think Northern Iowa is the only basketball-only Midwest school other than Wichita St. to have double digit top-100 KenPom finishes in the last 15 years (11). Southern Illinois, Illinois State, and Missouri State have 7,8, and 9 respectively.
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  #109  
Old 03-24-2017, 09:06 PM
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What part of "Dayton and VCU are not part of the discussion" is so hard to understand. I would put our chances of joining the AAC at Slim and none and Slim just left town. We have zero options in the near term, and who knows about further out.
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  #110  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:56 PM
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Something's going to have to give, either to keep Archie or to make the place more attractive to higher level recruits and future coaches. The A10 serves us well enough at the moment, but you've got teams that play in darn near HS sized gyms (small ones at that), a school that can't even fill their HC position, a lot of turnover in other HC positions in the league, poor tv deal/money, teams that honestly don't care all that much about basketball, etc. This is not a good situation to be in. We need to be out of the A10 in 3 years or less, unless the A10 is able to bring in some other great programs and make a better TV deal. That is, of course, assuming another opportunity fails to materialize.

Don't get me wrong. The Flyers can be a big fish in this pond, but only for so long.
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  #111  
Old 03-24-2017, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
What part of "Dayton and VCU are not part of the discussion" is so hard to understand. I would put our chances of joining the AAC at Slim and none and Slim just left town. We have zero options in the near term, and who knows about further out.
Just a week or 2 ago the AAC commish said the AAC would never add a non-football school, and yet here we are.
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  #112  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:31 AM
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Actually their commissioner said they would never add "multiple" non-football schools.
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  #113  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:47 AM
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I tend to agree that this discussion of Dayton to the AAC is an exercise in mental self stimulation, but as I sit here and watch Florida on the cusp of yet another Elite 8 (what will be its ninth, in only 30 years since its very first NCAA appearance), I'm realizing the game (the coaching game, not the game of basketball) may again be changing before our eyes.

It used to be that a young coach cut his teeth at a small program like Winthrop, moved up to an intermediate program like Dayton, then moved up to a well heeled program like Louisville (maybe with an NBA stint in there for good measure). See Rick Pitino (Boston U./Providence/Kentucky), Thad Matta (Butler/Xavier/OSU), Bill Self (Oral Roberts/Tulsa/Illinois/Kansas) as examples. Then, those intermediate jobs in the power conferences became career landmines when expectations exceeded the coaches' ability to deliver (see: Darrin Horn-South Carolina; Keno Davis-Iowa; Anthony Grant-Alabama). You began to see some of your high end young coaches homesteading at an intermediate program outside the power conferences (see: Archie Miller-Dayton; Gregg Marshall-Wichita). However, both South Carolina (Frank Martin) & Florida (Mike White) [maybe also Bryce Drew at Vandy] may be showing that it may indeed be advantageous to go to those power conference programs below the level of the elite. These lesser programs have the advantage of exposure, competition, and recruiting that are missing from their counterparts outside the power conferences. Now that Martin has put Scarolina on the map, expect that similar programs will pitch to their coaching targets the same "why not us?" message.

UD has done a great job making the program competitive against the major conference competitors, but much like the 1980s when things began to shift, they need to be aware that things aren't static.
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  #114  
Old 03-25-2017, 10:03 AM
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FWIW, casting envious eyes at other conferences, especially the AAC, and hoping for an invitation to join them and leave the A-10 at this point is ludicrous. IMHO, the AAC is no "prize" and we have very little in common with most of it's member institutions. Moreover, as already mentioned, a number of prominent AAC schools are chomping at the bit to leave it and join higher profile FB conferences. BTW, the MVC also doesn't appear (IMHO) to be a good institutional fit for UD either.

Outside of the NBE, there aren't many better, or more attractive, conferences to be in at this point than the A-10. We just have to continue to perform well and be at the top of the conference year in and year out. I realize that is easier said than done, but if we can do that, our national exposure and resources will continue to grow and we should be able to attract good coaches and student athletes. UD is more than just MBB and we should promote that to all.
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  #115  
Old 03-25-2017, 10:11 AM
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What is funny about all the threads, is a the comments that their are no reason Dayton can not be like ____________ school, and just dominate their conference and advance to the tourney every year.

A few years back, 4 schools were on this list that we were going to try to be like, but now we are down to 2, and possibly 1 school.

Butler & Creighton with Dana Altman- Where are they now?

WSU- Where do they want to be and where do the rumors have them going?

That leaves us with Gonzaga as who we want to be like. Obviously no disputing Gonzagas success over the years, but how many final 4's have they been in. (please answer that question prior to 8 PM tonight!)
Not that I would not want Gonzagas yearly trips to the dance and winning a few games in the big dance each season, but honestly I would not enjoy watching most of there home, and even a few of their road games this past season in conference. At least getting out of the arena at the end of the game would be easy as most Flyer fans would be gone by the 5 minute mark. Excluding the St. Marys and BYU games, most victories by 20+ points including scores of 90-60, 96-49, 79-43, 88-57, 102-65, 92-62, and 93-55. I hate to ever lose as much as anyone, but as a fan, watching multiple blowouts would suck too.

Dayton needs to be proactive on any opportunities that might arise. The A-10 is not the conference it used to be, and if any of the few remaining solid programs were to leave for greener pastures, I hope we go with them.
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  #116  
Old 03-25-2017, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post

That leaves us with Gonzaga as who we want to be like. Obviously no disputing Gonzagas success over the years, but how many final 4's have they been in? (please answer that question prior to 8 PM tonight!)
Hopefully one. Aren't they playing X?
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  #117  
Old 03-25-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Hopefully one. Aren't they playing X?
As I said, answer before 8 tonight

Screw Y (not even going to use the right initial on them!)
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  #118  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:20 AM
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Yavier has an awesome ring to it CFF
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  #119  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:07 PM
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Yavier

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
Yavier has an awesome ring to it CFF
Is he still catching for the Cardinals?
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  #120  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:15 PM
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CFF, I aspire to be UD and to remain UD, period. My tenure with UD goes back over 50 years and I am very proud of who we are and how we've handled adversity in the past. IMHO, part of that is maintaining our instituional philosphy and integrity. I wouldn't want to jeopardize that by joining a Conference that is comprised of instituions that too often blur the lines in recruiting, coaching and ethical conduct. We can remain a strong, competitive program regardless of affiliation; sure it may be easier to recruit in higher profile Conferences, like the NBE, but the A-10 isn't chopped liver either. No Conference is perfect in that regard, but the A-10, at the moment at least, is a pretty good fit.

Yes,it would be nice to have more competitive teams, but the likes of VCU, Davidson and URI are well regarded and even the Bonnies aren't bad. Then you have programs like SLU, Richmond, St. Joe's, GW and GM and even UMass that have the wherewithall to improve their respective programs and be highly competitive. As for LAS, Fordham, Duquesne they will probably be lost causes for quite some time in MBB but they are excellent examples of Catholic higher education. Methinks we sometimes worry too much about "others" and don't focus enough on who we are.

*BTW, a nice thing about the A-10 is that we actually have some real input into how the League operates and what needs to be done to raise the profile of the Conference. We're not a "step child" here and we can make a difference. However, in some of these other conferences being discussed, we'd be the low man on the totem pole.

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  #121  
Old 03-25-2017, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
*BTW, a nice thing about the A-10 is that we actually have some real input into how the League operates and what needs to be done to raise the profile of the Conference. We're not a "step child" here and we can make a difference. However, in some of these other conferences being discussed, we'd be the low man on the totem pole.
Do we? Because the A10 has a crap TV deal and has a bunch of crap schools that don't spend any money on basketball. The league is at best a stepping stone on the way to P5/NBE, and there will be at least 5 - 7 new coaches in the league this year. No stability, bad money, etc. At this rate, where are the advantages?
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  #122  
Old 03-25-2017, 03:30 PM
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TXFF, no one implied that the A-10 was the best MBB Conference out there, but, next to the NBE, it's a darn good fit for UD. What other conferences do you think would be better...the MVC (they got one bid this year), CUSA, AAC, Horrizon or the OVC (only kidding about the last two) ? Last I looked, we aren't a P-5 type of institution and unless the NBE comes knocking, the A-10 is likely to be home for the foreseeable future. We, at UD, need to remain actively involved with the Conference to make it the best it can be.
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  #123  
Old 03-25-2017, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bat'71 View Post
TXFF, no one implied that the A-10 was the best MBB Conference out there, but, next to the NBE, it's a darn good fit for UD. What other conferences do you think would be better...the MVC (they got one bid this year), CUSA, AAC, Horrizon or the OVC (only kidding about the last two) ? Last I looked, we aren't a P-5 type of institution and unless the NBE comes knocking, the A-10 is likely to be home for the foreseeable future. We, at UD, need to remain actively involved with the Conference to make it the best it can be.
Didn't say it wasn't the right place, just that if we have input into the A10, our input isn't that great. And that there isn't much we can do about our situation. Also, the A10 is a dumpster fire right now. All that said, it's still the right place to be for now.
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Old 03-25-2017, 05:01 PM
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Here's the list of multiple bid conferences for this Tourney. Even though the A-10 had an off-year, it still received three bids, thanks to URI winning the A-10 Tourney. The AAC, BTW, got two.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-bask...s-bracket-2017

As far as input to the A-10, from what I understand, we have been instrumental in effecting changes within the Conference on numerous issues. As far as TV contracts are concerned, Conferences negotiate them and member schools vote on them. You can't have 14 or more institutions negotiating these things.
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  #125  
Old 03-25-2017, 05:25 PM
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Again, the A10 is probably the right place for UD at this time, especially since the NBE isn't calling. But let's not pretend the A10 is anything compared to the P5/NBE. I used to work for Grant Thornton, back when there was still the Big 6 firms. GT was often considered #7, but there was no comparison between the top 6 and number 7. There were light years of difference. Sure, they were bigger than are your local mom and pop accounting and consultancy shops, like you would consider the Horizon, MVC, and so on. But compare the NBE TV contract to the A10 TV contract. How many NBE schools play in gyms that hold about 1300 people? How many NBE schools have coaching jobs that they are having difficulty filling like Duquesne? The A10 works for now, but as it is currently structured, cannot be the long-term home of UD. If they were to add 2 - 3 top schools from lower tiers (like Winthrop, Vermont, UNC Wilmington) etc, and drop a few schools like Duquesne and Fordham, and maybe even St. Louis, it would vastly improve the conference top to bottom. Maybe they could get a better TV deal and have some more consistency in coaching and overall team strength.

Heck, I don't have any real answers, other than the A10 needs some serious changes or it will end up hurting UD in the long run.
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Old 03-25-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
Again, the A10 is probably the right place for UD at this time, especially since the NBE isn't calling. But let's not pretend the A10 is anything compared to the P5/NBE. I used to work for Grant Thornton, back when there was still the Big 6 firms. GT was often considered #7, but there was no comparison between the top 6 and number 7. There were light years of difference. Sure, they were bigger than are your local mom and pop accounting and consultancy shops, like you would consider the Horizon, MVC, and so on. But compare the NBE TV contract to the A10 TV contract. How many NBE schools play in gyms that hold about 1300 people? How many NBE schools have coaching jobs that they are having difficulty filling like Duquesne? The A10 works for now, but as it is currently structured, cannot be the long-term home of UD. If they were to add 2 - 3 top schools from lower tiers (like Winthrop, Vermont, UNC Wilmington) etc, and drop a few schools like Duquesne and Fordham, and maybe even St. Louis, it would vastly improve the conference top to bottom. Maybe they could get a better TV deal and have some more consistency in coaching and overall team strength.

Heck, I don't have any real answers, other than the A10 needs some serious changes or it will end up hurting UD in the long run.
You lost me with dropping SLU, very short term thinking
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  #127  
Old 03-25-2017, 06:09 PM
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Here is St. Louis' A10 record year by year

2005–06 Brad Soderberg 16–13 10–6 3rd (tie)
2006–07 Brad Soderberg 20–13 8–8 6th (tie)
2007–08 Rick Majerus 16–15 7–9 9th (tie)
2008–09 Rick Majerus 18–14 8–8 8th
2009–10 Rick Majerus 23–13 11–5 4th CBI Runnerup
2010–11 Rick Majerus 12–19 6–10 10th (tie)
2011–12 Rick Majerus 26–8 12–4 2nd NCAA 3rd round
2012–13 Jim Crews 28–7 13–3 1st NCAA 3rd round
2013–14 Jim Crews 27–7 13–3 1st NCAA 3rd round
2014–15 Jim Crews 11–21 3–15 14th
2015–16 Jim Crews 11–21 5–13 12th (tie)
2016–17 Travis Ford 12-21 6-12 11th

Apart from 1 Rick Majerus year and two Jim Crews years, they haven't exactly lit the A10 on fire. What makes them so special?
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  #128  
Old 03-31-2017, 06:14 AM
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Witchita State in serious talks to join AAC as early as 17/18 season per Sports Illustrated's Pete Thames
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  #129  
Old 03-31-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevinob15 View Post
Witchita State in serious talks to join AAC as early as 17/18 season per Sports Illustrated's Pete Thames
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Their fans were posting this had to happen or their coach was gone after next year when his daughter graduated from high school. They were pretty confident it would happen.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:37 PM
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AAC is a Football driven conference, was nothing learned from the old Big East?

Not to mention the second UC and UConn can bolt for greener pastures they will
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  #131  
Old 04-03-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
AAC is a Football driven conference, was nothing learned from the old Big East?

Not to mention the second UC and UConn can bolt for greener pastures they will
People keep saying this. Every program that was part of the Big East is much better off than they would have been had they not joined. Marquette and DePaul (well, aside from being DePaul) turned out just fine. So did Louisville and Cincinnati. Cincinnati may not be exactly where they want to be, but where they are is a hell of a lot better than where they would have been had they opted to remain in Conference USA.

So if the Big East was such a disaster, then who was it ultimately a disaster for?? Who joined that should not have joined?? What schools would have been better off by turning it down??

Wichita to the AAC is a complete no brainer. It's obviously a good move for them. Them staying in the Missouri Valley is akin to Butler opting to stay in the Horizon League. Even if the league does end up losing some of it's members, what's the worst that could happen?? They end up in a league with one or two solid NIT teams on the top, and a bunch of sub 150 teams in the middle/bottom??

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  #132  
Old 04-03-2017, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
AAC is a Football driven conference, was nothing learned from the old Big East?

Not to mention the second UC and UConn can bolt for greener pastures they will
The old Big East was split. It started as a basketball conference, and football became the main focus as it should have. If a basketball only school joins the AAC it knows going in that football drives the bus. If it upgrades competition that WSU will play, pays them more money, and has a better TV deal, what is the problem? There is not intra-conference fighting if the basketball only schools know what it's coming into.
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:46 AM
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A10

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
The old Big East was split. It started as a basketball conference, and football became the main focus as it should have. If a basketball only school joins the AAC it knows going in that football drives the bus. If it upgrades competition that WSU will play, pays them more money, and has a better TV deal, what is the problem? There is not intra-conference fighting if the basketball only schools know what it's coming into.
A much improved A10 is a better option, in my opinion. Dayton should have leverage. Loss of Dayton would be a severe blow to the A10. The fact that there is WSU talk of changing conferences and even the mention of Dayton on message boards should put the fear of God in the A10 commissioner.

I don't see why UD/Neil, teamed with two or three other schools that take BB very seriously, cannot pressure the A10 for change....improvement. There is no fundamental reason why the A10 cannot be comparable to the Big East.

Go down the list of A10 schools. There are ones that are serious about excellence in BB and those that clearly are not. That should change. Shouldn't UD take the lead?
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  #134  
Old 04-03-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
A much improved A10 is a better option, in my opinion. Dayton should have leverage. Loss of Dayton would be a severe blow to the A10. The fact that there is WSU talk of changing conferences and even the mention of Dayton on message boards should put the fear of God in the A10 commissioner.

I don't see why UD/Neil, teamed with two or three other schools that take BB very seriously, cannot pressure the A10 for change....improvement. There is no fundamental reason why the A10 cannot be comparable to the Big East.

Go down the list of A10 schools. There are ones that are serious about excellence in BB and those that clearly are not. That should change. Shouldn't UD take the lead?
What could the A10 realistically do to change? There are no realistic schools to add. The conference won't kick anyone out. They already have rules in place to try and improve scheduling. What more can the A10 realistically do?

My post that you were replying to was more about Wichita St. than UD, but it I can see where it still would apply.
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:55 AM
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Question

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
What could the A10 realistically do to change? There are no realistic schools to add. The conference won't kick anyone out. They already have rules in place to try and improve scheduling. What more can the A10 realistically do?

My post that you were replying to was more about Wichita St. than UD, but it I can see where it still would apply.
Eagle, if the A10 was better wouldn't WSU be a candidate? WSU is mentioned only in connection with the AAC.
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Old 04-03-2017, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Eagle, if the A10 was better wouldn't WSU be a candidate? WSU is mentioned only in connection with the AAC.
Should they be? Yes! But the A10 had a chance to add a Midwest team when Butler and X left and instead they went back to the East for teams. I do not think the A10 would consider adding WSU because of them being such an extreme outlier.
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Old 04-03-2017, 10:09 AM
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It is too late for the A10 to do anything. 5 years ago they should have given La Salle, Duquesne, and Fordham an ultimatum: improve or else. They also should have added Wichita State. Now both of those options are gone.

The only thing we could do now is add some more solid programs, but none are going to have the instantaneous impact of making the conference better like WSU would have.
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
A much improved A10 is a better option, in my opinion. Dayton should have leverage. Loss of Dayton would be a severe blow to the A10. The fact that there is WSU talk of changing conferences and even the mention of Dayton on message boards should put the fear of God in the A10 commissioner.

I don't see why UD/Neil, teamed with two or three other schools that take BB very seriously, cannot pressure the A10 for change....improvement. There is no fundamental reason why the A10 cannot be comparable to the Big East.

Go down the list of A10 schools. There are ones that are serious about excellence in BB and those that clearly are not. That should change. Shouldn't UD take the lead?
While i frequently disagreed with you on Off-Topic Gib (atleast when i was still wasting time over there) we are most definitely on the same wave length on this side of the board
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  #139  
Old 04-03-2017, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
Here is St. Louis' A10 record year by year

2005–06 Brad Soderberg 16–13 10–6 3rd (tie)
2006–07 Brad Soderberg 20–13 8–8 6th (tie)
2007–08 Rick Majerus 16–15 7–9 9th (tie)
2008–09 Rick Majerus 18–14 8–8 8th
2009–10 Rick Majerus 23–13 11–5 4th CBI Runnerup
2010–11 Rick Majerus 12–19 6–10 10th (tie)
2011–12 Rick Majerus 26–8 12–4 2nd NCAA 3rd round
2012–13 Jim Crews 28–7 13–3 1st NCAA 3rd round
2013–14 Jim Crews 27–7 13–3 1st NCAA 3rd round
2014–15 Jim Crews 11–21 3–15 14th
2015–16 Jim Crews 11–21 5–13 12th (tie)
2016–17 Travis Ford 12-21 6-12 11th

Apart from 1 Rick Majerus year and two Jim Crews years, they haven't exactly lit the A10 on fire. What makes them so special?
Not sure if this is special but Nielsen ratings has St Louis as a metro ranking of 22 (2.319 million population) compared to Dayton at 64 (0.836 million population). Marketing dollars go a long way when determining what is special or not. The numbers I reviewed were from a 2013 study. For a little perspective the top 25 markets had a population of just over 109 million. The next 25 markets (26-50) had a population of just over 34 million.
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  #140  
Old 04-03-2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Larymike View Post
Not sure if this is special but Nielsen ratings has St Louis as a metro ranking of 22 (2.319 million population) compared to Dayton at 64 (0.836 million population). Marketing dollars go a long way when determining what is special or not. The numbers I reviewed were from a 2013 study. For a little perspective the top 25 markets had a population of just over 109 million. The next 25 markets (26-50) had a population of just over 34 million.
From a TV market, it may make sense, depending on if the viewers in that area tune in. Don't know how big Saint Louis basketball is in terms of tv viewership. In Dayton, I'd expect it to be pretty high, even though the market is smaller.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:14 AM
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http://www.espn.com/college-sports/s...state-shockers


Wichita State to AAC...
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  #142  
Old 04-07-2017, 11:15 AM
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It's official and the vote to include them was unanimous. Wichita State will be in the AAC next year.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:22 AM
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Good move by Wichita State. The Valley has been going down hill for a decade, but losing Creighton and now Wichita State will speed up the decline even more. I am really hoping the A10 does not have a similar slow decline like the Valley has had. The A10 could be in for another down year this year with all the roster turnover and coaching changes at the top school. It definitely would not surprise me if the A10 is only a 2 bid league next year.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:25 AM
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This is part of why Wichita entering the AAC would be exactly the wrong move. They’re proving they can continue fielding terrific teams as a member of the Missouri Valley Conference, just as Gonzaga has continued its phenomenal run for nearly 20 years while competing in the West Coast Conference.

The AAC is a terrific basketball league. Perhaps with a more established brand it would receive greater acclaim, but AAC member Connecticut won the national championship in 2014. Four teams from the league reached the NCAA Tournament last season. Wichita would provide one more strong member to add weight to league competition.

However, the truth about the AAC was transparent in the past year: If there’s a way out, the prominent members of the league want to take it. Pretty much every team in the conference applied for entry into the Big 12 when it staged its fruitless expansion pageant,
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-bas...b1mrtola7np2gi
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:25 AM
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Hartford Courant

Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
It's official and the vote to include them was unanimous. Wichita State will be in the AAC next year.
The main Hartford Courant top-of-the-page sports headline in 1" type this morning is: "Embrace Wichita State, Invite Dayton and VCU". The lengthy piece then explains the rationale.....and it's all about money, NCAA invites, etc.

Good for the AAC, probably,..not good for Dayton, in my opinion. I hope the A10 commissioner reads the paper.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:36 AM
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The AAC and the A10 are in the same place, every power school wants to be invited to join somewhere else.

The objective is to create yourself as another Gonzaga. Wichita State was on its way.
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Old 04-07-2017, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
The main Hartford Courant top-of-the-page sports headline in 1" type this morning is: "Embrace Wichita State, Invite Dayton and VCU". The lengthy piece then explains the rationale.....and it's all about money, NCAA invites, etc.

Good for the AAC, probably,..not good for Dayton, in my opinion. I hope the A10 commissioner reads the paper.
Here is link:

http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-...06-column.html
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  #148  
Old 04-07-2017, 12:08 PM
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Mike DeCoursey is a complete fool. Suggesting Wichita State stay in the MVC is like saying Butler should have stayed in the Horizon League, or VCU should have stayed in the Colonial.

It's better competition, more exposure, and more money. Even if some of the schools leave the conference, what's the worst that could happen? They end up in a league that typically has one or two NIT caliber teams at the top, and then a bunch of sub RPI 150 teams in the middle and bottom? Oh wait, they're already in a league like that. So, at the absolute worst, they remain the same.

To make his point, DeCoursey points to Conference USA. Gee, great argument!! If there is ever an argument as to why a team SHOULD leave for the AAC, it's CUSA. Every team that left is better off than they would have been had they not left. Every single one. In fact, there probably isn't a single team that's left in CUSA that wouldn't leave for the AAC if given the chance. Wichita State is being given the chance. They should take it. Without question.

What the hell is Mike smoking??
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  #149  
Old 04-07-2017, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Suggesting Wichita State stay in the MVC is like saying Butler should have stayed in the Horizon League
AAC is not the NBE.

The A10 and AAC as constructed are dead leagues, their just waiting for power members to be scarfed.

They will be better in the short term. Long term is a different matter.
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Old 04-07-2017, 12:37 PM
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Whatever the AAC looks like in five years will almost still be more competitive than what the current MVC is.
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Old 04-07-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Whatever the AAC looks like in five years will almost still be more competitive than what the current MVC is.
Absolutely. MVC is trending down. A10 is treading water. AAC is trending up.

And I would bet the AAC in five years will be more competitive than the A10 in five years.

That's the way it's trending now.

Could things change?

Of course.

A league with football is more volatile in a sense, but then again, the A10 has proven fairly volatile as well with a lot of movement into and out of the conference in recent years.
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Old 04-07-2017, 12:59 PM
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And the A10?

Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Whatever the AAC looks like in five years will almost still be more competitive than what the current MVC is.
Brew, what would you say about the A10 in five years? That's what matters to Dayton. Loss of Dayton and/or VCU would be devastating for the A10. Seems to me that unless the A10 commissioner is asleep the move the AAC made should be a little disturbing.

In my opinion, a good time for UD to apply some meaningful pressure focused on improvement of the A10. Indeed, such pressure might be even more effective if applied by an A10 member that's serious about BB but does not pose a threat to leave, e.g., St. Joes, URI.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:02 PM
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Dayton wants to join the the NBE which does not want them.

The real question is how to move forward. Joining the AAC would merely be treading water.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
Dayton wants to join the the NBE which does not want them.

The real question is how to move forward. Joining the AAC would merely be treading water.
Staying in the A10 is treading water. Treading water in the A10 isn't a terrible place to be and it's not like we even have another option, but while we're treading water there alongside VCU, it would be nice if a few other A10 programs started swimming up to where we're treading...
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:21 PM
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Treading water? Depends

Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
Dayton wants to join the the NBE which does not want them.

The real question is how to move forward. Joining the AAC would merely be treading water.
Suppose the AAC goes after VCU. Adding WSU and VCU makes the AAC much stronger.

The wild card is the Big 12. UC and UConn want to join a Power conference more than can be put into words. The best chance for that to happen is if the Big 12 adds two or more schools. If the two chosen come from the AAC that would weaken the AAC significantly. If one of the schools does not come from the AAC or if the Big 12 adds four schools, one (or two) of the schools could be poached from a Power conference stirring up the national pot yet again.

Adding WSU and perhaps another strong BB school makes AAC BB look pretty good. But, the entire matter is highly volatile. A much improved A10, if that's possible, still has the most appeal to me. Maybe it's "improve or else" time for the A10. Love to know Neil's point of view.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Suppose the AAC goes after VCU. Adding WSU and VCU makes the AAC much stronger.

The wild card is the Big 12. UC and UConn want to join a Power conference more than can be put into words. The best chance for that to happen is if the Big 12 adds two or more schools. If the two chosen come from the AAC that would weaken the AAC significantly. If one of the schools does not come from the AAC or if the Big 12 adds four schools, one (or two) of the schools could be poached from a Power conference stirring up the national pot yet again.

Adding WSU and perhaps another strong BB school makes AAC BB look pretty good. But, the entire matter is highly volatile. A much improved A10, if that's possible, still has the most appeal to me. Maybe it's "improve or else" time for the A10. Love to know Neil's point of view.
The Big 12 is not even considering UConn, and it would make absolutely no sense if they did. UConn's only hope is the ACC.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Suppose the AAC goes after VCU. Adding WSU and VCU makes the AAC much stronger.

The wild card is the Big 12. UC and UConn want to join a Power conference more than can be put into words. The best chance for that to happen is if the Big 12 adds two or more schools. If the two chosen come from the AAC that would weaken the AAC significantly. If one of the schools does not come from the AAC or if the Big 12 adds four schools, one (or two) of the schools could be poached from a Power conference stirring up the national pot yet again.

Adding WSU and perhaps another strong BB school makes AAC BB look pretty good. But, the entire matter is highly volatile. A much improved A10, if that's possible, still has the most appeal to me. Maybe it's "improve or else" time for the A10. Love to know Neil's point of view.
If you took Uconn and Cincy away from the AAC, but added VCU and Dayton, the AAC would still be slightly better than the A10 in my opinion. Or at the very least, it would be as good. But without Uconn and Cincy, Dayton probably wouldn't jump if invited. If the AAC invited Dayton tomorrow with VCU, it's quite possible Dayton still wouldn't jump, but we'd have to give it some serious thought at least. Especially if VCU was going to bail.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:37 PM
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I can tell you with 100% certainty that the AAC has already met with VCU and Dayton. They met with both schools last fall when they started meeting with WSU. But the lower level schools, East Carolina, Tulane, ect, did not want to add 3 schools to push them farther down the pecking order. So the decision was to go with just one for now. Also, UD and VCU were not as interested in joining right away like WSU was, but there was some interest from both school. I do not have a source that I can link, but I got this info straight from an AAC AD that met with 2 of the 3 schools last fall.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
Dayton wants to join the the NBE which does not want them.

The real question is how to move forward. Joining the AAC would merely be treading water.
I would wait for 2 or 3 years, can't remember which, when the AAC's contract has expired. Currently, the AAC's contract has more money made on a per school basis and gets more games on ESPN networks. This past season, they had UC v. SMU on a Thursday night on big ESPN. This would mean more visibility and dollars for us.

While the AAC's next contract structure is TBD, we can still take a guess based on the what it will likely entail based on the following factors. 1.) The current contract was agreed upon in a time of distress when they were not even sure the conference would live the length of the entire contract as potential Big 12 expansion was looming. Also, this qualified as a mismatch of various schools, would not blame anyone to not wanting to join for this reason though. This naturally lowered the value of the contract due to the instability. 2.) Also, Wichita State and Navy were not accounted for in the current contract. I believe Wichita State I don't need to explain why on this front. With Navy for their football, they had a separate contract for televising the home games on CBS Sports and were thus not included in the contract. Kind of like ND and the ACC except ND plays other sports in the ACC and they aren't in the conference for football but still have the contract with NBC. With the value of Navy football and the fact that Wichita State is a media darling, that would have to inherently increase the value of the conference right off the bat. 3.) ESPN is going to loose a good chunk of content due to the fact that they are loosing half of their media rights to the Big Ten. This means more spaces for sports to fill. Yes, ESPN is loosing more money than what they would like but they could pay the AAC or any smaller conference really, more money and still have made cuts to their contracts, from a monetary sense since they would be still paying less money that what they would with half of the Big Ten.

With that said, the one thing the A-10 does have going for it is the fact that they do have a distribution model for NCAA credits that have 75% distribution for the school in the tournament. However, in order to benefit from the concept in the A-10, UD would have to make the tournament more times than not.

With AAC's movement with WSU today, the AAC showed that it is to some level serious with basketball. I suggest that when the AAC's current contract gets close to expiring that UD should be trying to reach out and listen to the talks. I consider us to be a big enough property to place some sway in the negotiating table. Make the move if we believe that the contract is more advantageous. I personally beleive that the AAC has more upside than the A-10 for the next 8 years, when the Big 12 has its GOR expire.
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Old 04-07-2017, 02:35 PM
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MVC targeting Valpo and Murray State per news reports as Wichita State replacements.
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Old 04-07-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
MVC targeting Valpo and Murray State per news reports as Wichita State replacements.
Either one would be good.

Murray State plays football, which would most likely mean leaving the OVC in football as well.

Here is what is interesting. The Missouri Valley Football Conference is a completely different conference and entity than the Missouri Valley Conference. It is a football only conference that simply has the same name as the MVC. It's actually the old Gateway Conference. It decided it would rather be called the Missouri Valley Football Conference. I guess they liked the idea of confusing people.

So, Murray State's inclusion in that would not be automatic. In fact it has ten teams already and probably doesn't want to get any bigger. I cannot foresee the Ohio Valley letting them stay on as a football only member. So, while Murray State may make a lot of sense on the surface, the logistics of adding them could be more complicated than simply adding Valpo.
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Old 04-07-2017, 03:23 PM
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Is the grass greener?

So, I was thinking it would be logical to want to be associated with programs like UCONN, UC, WichSt, Memphis, and Temple. Several people have noted how five years from now the American will be better than the A-10. I decided to look back five years and see where both AAC and A-10 have been. Only problem, the AAC has only been around four years. So, with that I compared. Note, I only used teams currently in the respective conferences. If a team left, I did not include them; if a team arrived, I included them only in those years they were in the respective conference.

Overall RPI (A-10 better)

AAC (2013-2017): 130.81
A-10 (2012-2017): 114.34; (2013-2017): 114.80

Year by year (A-10 better each year)

2017 - AAC: 134.81; A-10: 128.42
2016 - AAC: 121.45; A-10: 116.5
2015 - AAC: 135.54; A-10: 123.28
2014 - AAC: 112.75; A-10: 91

Flagship programs average RPI (comparable)

SMU: 23.25
UC: 29.5
UCONN: 62.5
Memphis: 94.75

VCU: 21.75
UD: 32
Davidson: 62.3
URI: 93.25

Bottom feeder average RPI (A-10 bottom feeders better than AAC)

USF: 262
Tulane: 247.67
ECU: 217.33
UCF: 190.75

Fordham: 213.75
Duquesne: 212.5
SLU: 186.75
GMU: 173.25

Conclusion: while past performance isn't necessarily indicative of future outcomes, one cannot simply say the American is better than the A-10 going forward when the A-10 has been better in the past. The addition of WichSt is a very positive move for the AAC, but the real problem (just like in the A-10) is the anchor of the moribund bottom feeders. The AAC bottom feeders are considerably worse than those of the A-10. For those who would argue that UCF is trending up, note that one of our bottom feeders (SLU) is just a few years removed from national relevance and is likely to trend up. Another perceived A-10 bottom feeder (LaSalle) isn't even in the bottom four of the league over the past four years (avg RPI of 141.5, comparable to AAC up-trender Houston at 131). Additionally, the draw of the AAC is obviously being connected with near-blue blood programs like UCONN & UC, but those programs have expressed ongoing desire to jump to either the ACC or the Big 12. There is also the omnipresent threat of football realignment with schools such as Memphis, Tulsa, and Temple.

A better option would be to form a basketball only conference of the following:

UD
VCU
WichSt
SLU
Richmond
GW
URI
Davidson
Temple (give up football)
UCONN (give up football)
Memphis (give up football)
Tulsa (give up football)
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Old 04-07-2017, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post

A better option would be to form a basketball only conference of the following:

UD
VCU
WichSt
SLU
Richmond
GW
URI
Davidson
Temple (give up football)
UCONN (give up football)
Memphis (give up football)
Tulsa (give up football)
Would never happen. Those schools have way too much invested in football. Not to mention, UCF has made a BCS bowl, and until late last year, Houston was being mentioned for a playoff spot until they got knocked off by Navy. This allows the conference to make a good amount of $ playing football.
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Old 04-07-2017, 03:52 PM
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If Memphis & especially UConn get their acts together then it would be stronger
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  #165  
Old 04-07-2017, 04:06 PM
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In my opinion this is devastating news. The AAC is now clearly above the A10 and the only home-run addition was snatched out from under our nose.

No one this board can convince me that the AAC going forward is not better situated than the A10, whether or not Cinci/UConn jump. If the A10 also loses VCU/UMass forget about it. A10 is toast.

Not to mention, we've shown zero initiative when it comes to adding Midwestern schools, which is tantamount to retaining SLU/UD in the future.

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  #166  
Old 04-07-2017, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
So, I was thinking it would be logical to want to be associated with programs like UCONN, UC, WichSt, Memphis, and Temple. Several people have noted how five years from now the American will be better than the A-10. I decided to look back five years and see where both AAC and A-10 have been. Only problem, the AAC has only been around four years. So, with that I compared. Note, I only used teams currently in the respective conferences. If a team left, I did not include them; if a team arrived, I included them only in those years they were in the respective conference.

Overall RPI (A-10 better)

AAC (2013-2017): 130.81
A-10 (2012-2017): 114.34; (2013-2017): 114.80

Year by year (A-10 better each year)

2017 - AAC: 134.81; A-10: 128.42
2016 - AAC: 121.45; A-10: 116.5
2015 - AAC: 135.54; A-10: 123.28
2014 - AAC: 112.75; A-10: 91

Flagship programs average RPI (comparable)

SMU: 23.25
UC: 29.5
UCONN: 62.5
Memphis: 94.75

VCU: 21.75
UD: 32
Davidson: 62.3
URI: 93.25

Bottom feeder average RPI (A-10 bottom feeders better than AAC)

USF: 262
Tulane: 247.67
ECU: 217.33
UCF: 190.75

Fordham: 213.75
Duquesne: 212.5
SLU: 186.75
GMU: 173.25

Conclusion: while past performance isn't necessarily indicative of future outcomes, one cannot simply say the American is better than the A-10 going forward when the A-10 has been better in the past. The addition of WichSt is a very positive move for the AAC, but the real problem (just like in the A-10) is the anchor of the moribund bottom feeders. The AAC bottom feeders are considerably worse than those of the A-10. For those who would argue that UCF is trending up, note that one of our bottom feeders (SLU) is just a few years removed from national relevance and is likely to trend up. Another perceived A-10 bottom feeder (LaSalle) isn't even in the bottom four of the league over the past four years (avg RPI of 141.5, comparable to AAC up-trender Houston at 131). Additionally, the draw of the AAC is obviously being connected with near-blue blood programs like UCONN & UC, but those programs have expressed ongoing desire to jump to either the ACC or the Big 12. There is also the omnipresent threat of football realignment with schools such as Memphis, Tulsa, and Temple.

A better option would be to form a basketball only conference of the following:

UD
VCU
WichSt
SLU
Richmond
GW
URI
Davidson
Temple (give up football)
UCONN (give up football)
Memphis (give up football)
Tulsa (give up football)

The conferences are pretty comparable right now. With WSU/Dayton/VCU the aac is much stronger and its not even a question.
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  #167  
Old 04-07-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
In my opinion this is devastating news. The AAC is now clearly above the A10 and the only home-run addition was snatched out from under our nose.

No one this board can convince me that the AAC going forward is not better situated than the A10, whether or not Cinci/UConn jump. If the A10 also loses VCU/UMass forget about it. A10 is toast.

Not to mention, we've shown zero initiative when it comes to adding Midwestern schools, which is tantamount to retaining SLU/UD in the future.
A10 - 3 bids to tourney on what everyone agrees is a down year for the conference
AAC - 2 bids to tourney (add one with Wichita State) = 3

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here.
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  #168  
Old 04-07-2017, 04:45 PM
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I thought there was already an article posted a little while back that quoted the AAC commissioner as saying they are looking at WSU and if they expand it will be one team only, there are no other schools being considered?
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  #169  
Old 04-07-2017, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
A10 - 3 bids to tourney on what everyone agrees is a down year for the conference
AAC - 2 bids to tourney (add one with Wichita State) = 3

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here.
It was also a VERY down year for the AAC. UConn, Memphis, Temple, and Houston. All teams that have strong histories of making the tournament. The first 3 would definitely had a down year, because of that, Houston's decent season wasn't enough to sneak in.
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  #170  
Old 04-07-2017, 05:04 PM
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Those names are more recognizable than the names in the A10. The A10 had stuck itself in the northeast, and the recognition is in the northeast. How does this help? TV viewership, recruiting and the eyeball test.
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  #171  
Old 04-07-2017, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Brew, what would you say about the A10 in five years? That's what matters to Dayton. Loss of Dayton and/or VCU would be devastating for the A10. Seems to me that unless the A10 commissioner is asleep the move the AAC made should be a little disturbing.

In my opinion, a good time for UD to apply some meaningful pressure focused on improvement of the A10. Indeed, such pressure might be even more effective if applied by an A10 member that's serious about BB but does not pose a threat to leave, e.g., St. Joes, URI.
I'm not sure, but if I had to guess I'd say it'll look similar to what it does now.

There are things about the A10 that drive me nuts. One is the way the league shares tournament revenue. I've seen people mention that the team who earns the units gets 75 percent of them. I've seen no evidence that is how it's done, though. See the link below. You'll have to scroll down to the MAKERS AND TAKERS BY CONFERENCE tab, and click on the EARNED VS RECEIVED. You then need to scroll over the little bars, which represent the A10 teams from 1991. The revenue distribution in the A10 is so out of whack that it's almost comical.

You have Duquesne, who has earned zero units in the entire history of the conference, but is receiving 12.3 units. You have Dayton, who had earned 9 units the last time this was updated (it is now 11), and has only received 9.3 units.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...sketball-fund/

HOW IN THE HELL IS DUQUESNE GETING MORE THAN DAYTON?? I don't know, but they are. That is what drove me crazy. Xavier seemed to receive less than the majority of the league, even though they earned the most. I wish they were getting 75 percent of what they earned. That's what I've heard people on here say. But, I've seen no report that indicates that's how it works, nor have I heard from anyone connected to the conference saying that's how it works. All they say is that it's complicated. Well, yeah. I'd say so.

That leads into something else that always drove me nuts about the A10. It was more of a cluster than a conference. At times it felt like a junk yard. By that I mean if you sifted through everything, you could find some high quality stuff. But, at the end of the day, it was still a collective junk yard. You have programs that don't take basketball seriously and don't commit to it at the level that Dayton and Xavier did. There's nothing wrong with not committing to basketball in and of itself, but there is something wrong with being in a league with schools that do, and then taking a bigger share of the NCAA Tournament revenue than what the schools who do commit to basketball and earn the revenue get. Now, to be fair to Fordham and Duquesne, in the last two years I think both have hired good coaches. Fordham has shown improvement, and I think Duquense will start to improve under Dambrot, but for multiple decades it felt like there were teams that just didn't put anything into basketball, and drug the league down, and took a bigger piece of the pie. That made me insane. I still think this is occurs, and I still think it will be occurring in five years.

Last, and certainly not least, is the A10's beyond ridiculous and beyond pathetic TV deal. There is really no excuse for it. The league is in big markets, and even though it's not a power conference it's still among the very few conferences (I'd say nine or ten) that regularly puts multiple teams in the NCAA Tournament, always (with the exception of one season) has its first place team inside the bubble.

It's a basketball centric conference in big markets with multiple NCAA Tournament caliber teams every year. Why is the TV deal so unbelievably ****ty?? It's crap money, and it's even crappier exposure. The Missouri Valley isn't as good as the A10, even with Wichita State. Yet, those schools make close to twice as much per school on TV revenue as what the A10 gets. That is flat out absurd. The A10 basically equally shares $500k amongst all its members every year. And, they actually had it in the contract at one point that they were not allowed to play on free to air networks. Why in the world would anyone with any sense agree to that?? My best guess is that the reason the networks wanted that was to strong arm people into having to subscribe to NBC Sports and CBS Sports, or to buy some other premium package in order to watch the games. When CBS showed the A10 championship game, I believe ESPN had the rights to it and sold it to CBS, and they actually had to obtain permission to show the game from the other entities that made up the TV network because CBS is a free to air network.

Back in X's A10 days, I didn't so much want into the Big East as I wanted out of the A10. I figured the A10 had a solid core of teams that would have been much better served going out on their own. X, UD, SLU, Butler, VCU, and Richmond could have joined up with any two three other teams and had a much better league than the cluster that was the A10 with much better revenue sharing and a much better TV deal. Add Wichita and Creighton to that and that's a **** good eight team basketball conference. I really didn't want to wait for the Big East at the time. I guess it worked out rather nicely for X, so I can't complain too much, but at the time I just wanted out of the A10 and saw no reason to just wait for the BE. I still feel that way about the A10, and still think there are a core of teams that would do better on their own, but to be honest, it's harder for me to care now for obvious reasons. If you get the chance to go to the AAC I think you should do it, but that's just me. If people disagree it's no skin off my nose.
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  #172  
Old 04-07-2017, 05:18 PM
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Remember about the second year of the New Big East, many on this board were talking about how the A-10 was just as good based upon that years results? How has that worked out for us?

We need to be proactive on our future. If we stay, and others such as VCU, UMass, or other top tier teams leave for greener pastures, I sure hope we go with them.
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  #173  
Old 04-07-2017, 05:44 PM
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I'm sure every team in the American would love to join a Power 5 league but where are they gonna go?

The Big 12 wanted to expand and was seriously looking into it. They didn't see anyone worth taking & opted to stand pat. What's gonna be different the next time around for UC or UConn. They don't like the American but they're stuck there.
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  #174  
Old 04-07-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
It was also a VERY down year for the AAC. UConn, Memphis, Temple, and Houston. All teams that have strong histories of making the tournament. The first 3 would definitely had a down year, because of that, Houston's decent season wasn't enough to sneak in.
This. Actually Houston had a good year so I wouldn't include them.
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  #175  
Old 04-07-2017, 07:46 PM
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The football schools in the AAC will eventually bolt and WSU will be left holding the bag....UC, UCONN , SMU, Houston and Memphis will not stay in this weak ass league. It amazes me that XUBREW thinks it would have been silly to stay in the MVC or Butler to stay in the Horizon....they were guaranteed NCAA every year...Its how Xavier built their reputation over the last 30 years...before that they were nothing....Dayton owned them, we still have the advantage in win-loss!

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Old 04-07-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cobra8u View Post
The football schools in the AAC will eventually bolt and WSU will be left holding the bag....UC, UCONN , SMU, Houston and Memphis will not stay in this weak ass league. It amazes me that XUBREW thinks it would have been silly to stay in the MVC or Butler to stay in the Horizon....they were guaranteed NCAA every year...Its how Xavier built their reputation over the last 30 years...before that they were nothing....Dayton owned them, we still have the advantage in win-loss!
Butler has only missed the tournament once since leaving the HL. They also missed the NCAA Tournament in their final year in the HL, so it wasn't a guarantee.

Let's put it this way. Butler left the Horizon League to join the A10. Would you think it wise for Dayton to leave the A10 to join the Horlzon League?? I'm sure they'd love to have you. If you think it was a bad idea for Butler to leave for the A10, then that same logic must mean that you think it'd be good for Dayton to leave the A10 for the HL. Or for the Missouri Valley. I'm sure they'd love to have you as well, and there's a vacancy!
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  #177  
Old 04-07-2017, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cobra8u View Post
The football schools in the AAC will eventually bolt and WSU will be left holding the bag....UC, UCONN , SMU, Houston and Memphis will not stay in this weak ass league. It amazes me that XUBREW thinks it would have been silly to stay in the MVC or Butler to stay in the Horizon....they were guaranteed NCAA every year...Its how Xavier built their reputation over the last 30 years...before that they were nothing....Dayton owned them, we still have the advantage in win-loss!
So...where are UC, UConn, SMU, Houston, and Memphis going? You sound childish with your bluster.
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  #178  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
So...where are UC, UConn, SMU, Houston, and Memphis going? You sound childish with your bluster.
Dayton would be crazy to join the AAC.

Its a football conference formed out of a marriage of convenience that all the schools would bolt from if they had a chance to leave for greener pastures.
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  #179  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:33 AM
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So what if a couple teams leave the ACC, then we go to plan B. The ACC gets a couple more teams or UD joins some other league. Sitting on our hands gets us more of the same... good but not great.

Once again we lost a good recruit, who will probably seek a better conference. The women just lost their excellent and only recruit, who will probably seek a better conference. We lost our coach, who went to a better conference. Our plus 100 recruits will not get us to the next level.
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  #180  
Old 04-08-2017, 02:39 PM
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Dayton should get proactive. My understanding Neil Sullivan already has a plan in place should P5 go to 20 game round robins.

Get together with like minded schools who have demonstrated the $$$ and support for their programs and form a new conference.

National Collegiate Conference
. Have a East West division where all the basketball teams play one another but the olympic teams only play the teams in their conference (thereby eliminating the expensive travel cross country).

Schools: Gonzaga, St. Marys, BYU, Wichita State, SMU, Dayton, SLU, UMass, Rhode Island, just a few off top of my head.

Brought this up in another message board and someone said we don't want to give up the automatic bid. Well if we couldn't repeatedly get 4-5 at large bids per year then we have chosen the wrong programs.

Just a thought, anyone
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  #181  
Old 04-08-2017, 03:17 PM
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It was a big mistake for the A10 to not reach out to Wichita before this
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  #182  
Old 04-08-2017, 03:26 PM
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I like it Avid. Add VCU and St. Joe's.

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  #183  
Old 04-08-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Dayton should get proactive. My understanding Neil Sullivan already has a plan in place should P5 go to 20 game round robins.

Get together with like minded schools who have demonstrated the $$$ and support for their programs and form a new conference.

National Collegiate Conference
. Have a East West division where all the basketball teams play one another but the olympic teams only play the teams in their conference (thereby eliminating the expensive travel cross country).

Schools: Gonzaga, St. Marys, BYU, Wichita State, SMU, Dayton, SLU, UMass, Rhode Island, just a few off top of my head.

Brought this up in another message board and someone said we don't want to give up the automatic bid. Well if we couldn't repeatedly get 4-5 at large bids per year then we have chosen the wrong programs.

Just a thought, anyone
SLU and UMASS over VCU, San Diego St, and New Mexico?

Last edited by m21eagle45; 04-08-2017 at 05:03 PM..
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  #184  
Old 04-08-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Dayton should get proactive. My understanding Neil Sullivan already has a plan in place should P5 go to 20 game round robins.

Get together with like minded schools who have demonstrated the $$$ and support for their programs and form a new conference.

National Collegiate Conference
. Have a East West division where all the basketball teams play one another but the olympic teams only play the teams in their conference (thereby eliminating the expensive travel cross country).

Schools: Gonzaga, St. Marys, BYU, Wichita State, SMU, Dayton, SLU, UMass, Rhode Island, just a few off top of my head.

Brought this up in another message board and someone said we don't want to give up the automatic bid. Well if we couldn't repeatedly get 4-5 at large bids per year then we have chosen the wrong programs.

Just a thought, anyone
I think this idea is beyond awesome. Of course we are keyboard warriors who only discuss this stuff and dont have to do the work. I have to ask though, why would we be giving up the Automatic bid? We have won the Automatic bid exactly one time in our 23 year history in the A-10.

It would probably need to be a non-football league so that eliminates possibilities.The olympic sport angle is what i really like. Not sure format,schedule or logistics but it would be cool. Bottom line after the Power 5 and the Big East it only make sense to gather the rest for a country wide super league. Who knows, i dont pretend to know the ins and outs to offer an educated opinion
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  #185  
Old 04-08-2017, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cobra8u View Post
The football schools in the AAC will eventually bolt and WSU will be left holding the bag....UC, UCONN , SMU, Houston and Memphis will not stay in this weak ass league.
Pray tell, where will they go?
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  #186  
Old 04-08-2017, 06:34 PM
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Comment, opinion

The AAC commissioner was as definitive as language allows saying that addition of WSU was a special case....a very strong BB addition that brings the league up to 12 schools. If...if...there is additional expansion it will FB schools. The old BE taught us the problems associated with mixing FB and BB-only schools, paraphrasing.

There are two obvious moves that would impact the conference scene, occurring individually or together. 1) Big 12 adding two or four schools; 2) One of the Power 5 conferences deciding that there would be substantial financial benefit by expanding from 14 to 16 schools. In the latter scenario most likely one power conference would poach schools from another, requiring action on the part of the conference losing schools.

For example, it's often said that FSU is not satisfied with the ACC and would prefer the SEC. Conferences have in place exit provisions making it hard to leave. Nonetheless, schools have moved between power 5 conferences. Such a move might forces the Big 12 to grow.

It would seem that geography pretty much excludes the PAC 12 from the picture. Whatever, even with all the speculation major moves since this madness began over a decade ago usually involved surprises. I'm betting that's the way it's likely to unfold again.

Another angle reflecting desperation on the part of have-nots would be legal action against the Power 5 cartel and TV companies which surely are affecting competition with significant adverse consequences for many public and private schools that play FBS FB. The State of Connecticut pursued that course when the ACC raiders first damaged the Big East...and at that time the "damaged" schools were still relatively strong financially. Their plight has deteriorated dramatically since then to the point that the impact on state finances has become significant.
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  #187  
Old 04-08-2017, 06:58 PM
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The Big 12 looked at expansion and didn't find anyone worth taking. Hard to see anything changing with a Memphis, UConn or UC that's gonna make them suddenly more desirable to the league

The Big East fell apart because there were 7 basketball schools in the conference and they had the leverage to start a new league. Bringing in Dayton & VCU wouldn't change the equilibrium of the AAC. 3 basketball members who want to be there & moved into the league.

The basketball schools in the old Big East broke off because bringing in new football schools meant bad basketball. It was forced union that they didn't want to be a part of whereas Wichita & presumably if they invite two more schools will want to be there
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  #188  
Old 04-08-2017, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Another angle reflecting desperation on the part of have-nots would be legal action against the Power 5 cartel and TV companies which surely are affecting competition with significant adverse consequences for many public and private schools that play FBS FB. The State of Connecticut pursued that course when the ACC raiders first damaged the Big East...and at that time the "damaged" schools were still relatively strong financially. Their plight has deteriorated dramatically since then to the point that the impact on state finances has become significant.
You say the State of Connecticut pursued legal action. What was the outcome?
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  #189  
Old 04-08-2017, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Dayton should get proactive. My understanding Neil Sullivan already has a plan in place should P5 go to 20 game round robins.

Get together with like minded schools who have demonstrated the $$$ and support for their programs and form a new conference.

National Collegiate Conference
. Have a East West division where all the basketball teams play one another but the olympic teams only play the teams in their conference (thereby eliminating the expensive travel cross country).

Schools: Gonzaga, St. Marys, BYU, Wichita State, SMU, Dayton, SLU, UMass, Rhode Island, just a few off top of my head.

Brought this up in another message board and someone said we don't want to give up the automatic bid. Well if we couldn't repeatedly get 4-5 at large bids per year then we have chosen the wrong programs.

Just a thought, anyone
You wouldn't lose the automatic bid. The rules are that you need seven schools that have been full div1 members for eight years. They may have relaxed it even more. The New Big East was technically a new conference and they have an automatic bid.

What if the A10 and MVC (and I guess one other school) got together, realigned into three conferences, and had a scheduling agreement among those conferences?? You could essentially end up with three 8 team conferences with three auto-bids. You could also play fourteen conference games (double round robin), and then on the last week of the season you would play your mirror from the other leagues. By that I mean the first place team would play the other two first place team, the three second place teams would all play each other, and so on.

That would basically ensure that at least two of the OOC games for the better teams in each league were against quality opponents, and they would occur late in the year prior to the conference tournaments. That would be 14 conference games and two OOC games per the scheduling agreement. That still leaves room for a full OOC schedule.

The big thing you could do is ditch the crap media deal and collectively negotiate a much better one that all three conferences would be affiliated with. The teams and the markets that the three leagues would be in could probably pull in a pretty impressive deal.

Hell, you could expand on that concept and rope in the West Coast conference, and have three OOC games at the end of the year. The WCC's addition of Pacific kind of screws up the logistics, but something could be figured out. Or...on the second thought, no it won't. This won't happen. It's just a concept/idea that I've had for quite some time.

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  #190  
Old 04-08-2017, 09:09 PM
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CT legal action.....

Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
You say the State of Connecticut pursued legal action. What was the outcome?
It was a long time ago and I forget the details. As I recall the case was led by CT's attorney general (now a US senator)...and the argument was that the ACC had caused significant financial damage to CT after CT had invested well over $100 million on its FB program to join a BCS conference that was weakened. Other BE schools joined the suit which was brought against the ACC, Boston College and BC's AD personally. (Some of its coming back to me.)

I think BC was still a member of the BE, participating in all the closed-door meetings...and at the same time was secretly negotiating with the ACC. It got very messy and the bad blood between UConn and BC lasted for a decade.

Some sort of settlement was reached as I recall...CT did not "win" its case. But two things (at least) have changed. 1) The ACC raid on a conference was unprecedented at the time. 2) After the raid the BE still remained quite strong, added replacements and was recovered quite well.

But, the ACC had started something that within a few years became rather common. Indeed, a few years later the ACC made a second raid on the "New" BE which proved fatal resulting in complete collapse....a split between Fb and BB schools, creation of the AAC and what is now the BE.

After the first ACC raid the old BE remained quite strong and making the case that schools like UConn were materially damaged financially was a tough sell. Today making a similar case would be much stronger. AAC schools like UConn and UC are bleeding red ink to the tune of tens of millions annually...and they have been locked out of the lucrative TV deals that the Power 5 have made.

And that financial "lock out" is what distinguishes Power 5 schools from AAC schools for example. Big time athletics is based on money. The Power 5 schools take in on the order of $30 million each annually from TV. The AAC schools have to make that difference up in the form of a subsidy since their TV revenue is about a tenth of the Power 5 schools.

So why don't non-Power 5s just drop FBS FB? Realistically, they can't. Once in they are essentially locked in so as to ensure viability of all their other sports. Indeed, some legacy Power 5s probably wouldn't play the game if they had a choice.

The situation is odd to say the least. Thank God UD is not caught up in it.

All opinion, you understand.
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  #191  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:26 PM
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I think I heard/read,that Idaho is dropping Div 1 football. By every correct measure, UAB should have dropped Div 1 football.

There will be more dominoes to drop over the next decade. In an era of escalating student loan burdens, at what point do students in conferences like the MAC revolt against $500-$1,000 student activity fees PER SEMESTER to support football; games that fewer and fewer attend? With the increased knowledge of head injuries, what is the long term liability to schools that continue to play football; especially schools that lose $ on an annual basis? TV revenue is only going down in the future with more and more consumers unbundling their TV packages. Hell, I could even make the argument that underfunded pensions could force most states to curtail spending on higher education. Where do they cut? Cutting scholarship football makes a lot of sense because it also allows a school to cut a lot of non revenue female sports like crew that only exist because of Title IX.
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  #192  
Old 04-08-2017, 11:30 PM
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All true...

Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
I think I heard/read,that Idaho is dropping Div 1 football. By every correct measure, UAB should have dropped Div 1 football.

There will be more dominoes to drop over the next decade. In an era of escalating student loan burdens, at what point do students in conferences like the MAC revolt against $500-$1,000 student activity fees PER SEMESTER to support football; games that fewer and fewer attend? With the increased knowledge of head injuries, what is the long term liability to schools that continue to play football; especially schools that lose $ on an annual basis? TV revenue is only going down in the future with more and more consumers unbundling their TV packages. Hell, I could even make the argument that underfunded pensions could force most states to curtail spending on higher education. Where do they cut? Cutting scholarship football makes a lot of sense because it also allows a school to cut a lot of non revenue female sports like crew that only exist because of Title IX.
....and yet once in a while you here of a school deciding to step up to FBS level....in spite of what we know re the financials. As I understand it, most (i.e., more than half), of the Power 5 schools lose money on football.
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  #193  
Old 04-09-2017, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
I think I heard/read,that Idaho is dropping Div 1 football. By every correct measure, UAB should have dropped Div 1 football.

There will be more dominoes to drop over the next decade. In an era of escalating student loan burdens, at what point do students in conferences like the MAC revolt against $500-$1,000 student activity fees PER SEMESTER to support football; games that fewer and fewer attend? With the increased knowledge of head injuries, what is the long term liability to schools that continue to play football; especially schools that lose $ on an annual basis? TV revenue is only going down in the future with more and more consumers unbundling their TV packages. Hell, I could even make the argument that underfunded pensions could force most states to curtail spending on higher education. Where do they cut? Cutting scholarship football makes a lot of sense because it also allows a school to cut a lot of non revenue female sports like crew that only exist because of Title IX.
La Salle dropped football altogether about 10 years ago due largely to liability.
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  #194  
Old 04-09-2017, 12:32 AM
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Idaho is dropping down to I-AA because they no longer have a conference to play in

Sun Belt kicked them & New Mexico St out. NMSU is going independent for the foreseeable future
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  #195  
Old 04-09-2017, 02:18 AM
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The DI minimum attendance requirement is something like 13-15K average. Many MAC schools do not get 850 people in the stands for a Tuesday night game on ESPN2 in the middle of November. I have personally sat in front of my TV and counted every human on the opposite side stands (including traveling band members) and gotten less than 200 several times. In-game footage of the home sideline grandstand was not much better.

These schools are papering the house worse than Wright State basketball. One of two things are happening: they have just enough whales to buy cheap tickets to keep the schools DI eligible when there are no bodies to fill the seats, or people honestly bought tickets and decided picking the lint out of their belly button all night was more entertaining and elected to stay home.

Either scenario is highly problematic for these athletic departments. I watched a Miami OH home game a year or two ago and counted fewer than 150 actual bodies there -- not including the band that was required to show up. When Big Ben was there, they got big crowds and Miami football was THE sport there. Now their entire athletic department is in tatters. They now see themselves as a hockey school -- and even that's been down lately. They used to have a good mens soccer program. That, and mens tennis and wrestling were eliminated about 15yrs ago.
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  #196  
Old 04-09-2017, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
....and yet once in a while you here of a school deciding to step up to FBS level....in spite of what we know re the financials. As I understand it, most (i.e., more than half), of the Power 5 schools lose money on football.
There is a direct correlation between FBS football and enrollment. The schools that have recently added it and/or reclassified to the FBS level are all public schools who want to grow enrollment. And, it has worked. Western Kentucky, Charlotte, UTSA, Georgia Southern, Appalachian State, Old Dominion, South Alabama, and Georgia State have all seen their enrollments spike since starting up football, or moving football up to the FBS level. Strangely enough, I know a few of those schools have said the average test scores of the students who enroll have also gone up. Now, you'd really be jumping to conclusions if you said that was because of football because it could have easily been due to other things, but every public institution that isn't the state's flagship institution seems to be experiencing huge spikes in enrollment, and are even setting records for enrollment, after they started playing FBS football.

That's why schools are adding it. For a private school like Dayton, their enrollment is pretty much capped. There are more students who apply than are accepted despite the fact that they meet the minimum admission standards. There is only room for so many. For most of the schools that have decided to add football, they'll take anyone who meets the minimum requirements, and they want as many as they can get. Football gets them more (for whatever reason). Hence, the reason for having it. They would LOVE to get to a point to where they're having to turn students away that meet the minimum.

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Old 04-09-2017, 08:15 AM
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Interesting that brew's list is all southern schools and Chris refers to the MAC. I read recentLy that Akron lost over $25M on sports last year. That amounted to over $1000 per student. They have seen an enrollment drop after spending a lot of money on capital improvements. They are in a hurt. I don't know what would happen to their if they dropped football. I wonder if one of the reasons Dambrot made the jump (and taking all his assistants) was because he read the writing on the wall. Supposedly he had turned down the job in the past.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:37 AM
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How many UD sports operate in the black? Outside of Men's basketball what sports operate in the black? Maybe Women's Volleyball? i would GUESS that men's basketball for all tense and purposes supports the entire athletic program. UD should outright drop football and cut the fat.

I will say i am entirely ignorant of how this stuff works financially, but in the end, UD basketball is what supports the whole department right?
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
There is a direct correlation between FBS football and enrollment. The schools that have recently added it and/or reclassified to the FBS level are all public schools who want to grow enrollment. And, it has worked. Western Kentucky, Charlotte, UTSA, Georgia Southern, Appalachian State, Old Dominion, South Alabama, and Georgia State have all seen their enrollments spike since starting up football, or moving football up to the FBS level. Strangely enough, I know a few of those schools have said the average test scores of the students who enroll have also gone up. Now, you'd really be jumping to conclusions if you said that was because of football because it could have easily been due to other things, but every public institution that isn't the state's flagship institution seems to be experiencing huge spikes in enrollment, and are even setting records for enrollment, after they started playing FBS football.

That's why schools are adding it. For a private school like Dayton, their enrollment is pretty much capped. There are more students who apply than are accepted despite the fact that they meet the minimum admission standards. There is only room for so many. For most of the schools that have decided to add football, they'll take anyone who meets the minimum requirements, and they want as many as they can get. Football gets them more (for whatever reason). Hence, the reason for having it. They would LOVE to get to a point to where they're having to turn students away that meet the minimum.
I'm not sure I buy this connection. Any legitimate studies on the issue?
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
UD should outright drop football and cut the fat.
Now you've done it.
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