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  #201  
Old 04-09-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
How many UD sports operate in the black? Outside of Men's basketball what sports operate in the black? Maybe Women's Volleyball? i would GUESS that men's basketball for all tense and purposes supports the entire athletic program. UD should outright drop football and cut the fat.

I will say i am entirely ignorant of how this stuff works financially, but in the end, UD basketball is what supports the whole department right?
Men's basketball is the only team that makes money. Volleyball doesn't even charge admission.

I also completely agree that UD should drop football.
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  #202  
Old 04-09-2017, 09:34 AM
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Only men's BB

Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
How many UD sports operate in the black? Outside of Men's basketball what sports operate in the black? Maybe Women's Volleyball? i would GUESS that men's basketball for all tense and purposes supports the entire athletic program. UD should outright drop football and cut the fat.

I will say i am entirely ignorant of how this stuff works financially, but in the end, UD basketball is what supports the whole department right?
UD is very fortunate that men's BB is such a cash cow. But even with that BB provides only about 1/3, roughly, of UD's $20+ million athletics budget and operates in the black. The fact that all other sports are subsidized isn't an issue. A sports program is considered a necessity by all schools.

The issue with FBS FB is that it's so very, very expensive for so many reasons. UD's entire non-schollie FB program costs only about $1 million. An FBS program can cost 10x, 20x, 30x... that. The cost of FBS FB is in a class by itself as regards college athletics. You need large TX and TV revenue to come close to making ends meet. The MAC, for example, has neither.
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  #203  
Old 04-09-2017, 09:45 AM
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Not sure why Dayton would drop football now that it is a Div 1 FCS program. And... I still don't believe they even give scholarships, right?

It might not be the money maker basketball is; however, there are more sports that are less attended and less profitable that should be cut ahead of it, I would guess.

Football, at Dayton, might not be as popular as hoops. At the same time, football is still the most watched and attended sport in America.

I have no data nor stats to back it up, but, I doubt a move like that would help school attendance or really help save enough athletic money to even warrant it.

Last edited by MD Flyer Pride; 04-09-2017 at 09:49 AM..
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  #204  
Old 04-09-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
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  #205  
Old 04-09-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
How many UD sports operate in the black? Outside of Men's basketball what sports operate in the black? Maybe Women's Volleyball? i would GUESS that men's basketball for all tense and purposes supports the entire athletic program. UD should outright drop football and cut the fat.

I will say i am entirely ignorant of how this stuff works financially, but in the end, UD basketball is what supports the whole department right?
The non-scholarship model that UD uses for football is a good fit for the University. The football budget is in the 1M range. football draws more fans than any other sport, save men's basketball, and now has a shot at the FCS playoffs each year. the Administration has stated that their stated goal is to be competitive on a national scale in men's and women"s basketball, M&W scoccer, vollyball and football. Football will not be going away any time soon. It is true that Men's BB supports about half the athletic budget, and is the most important program by far dollar wise, but football is not a large drain on the budget, and certainly is a better situation money wise than most of the FBS schools. If you don't like the sport, and think it should be dropped, fine, just don't hold you breath.

Last edited by UD62; 04-09-2017 at 10:01 AM..
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  #206  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:07 AM
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I don't recall exact numbers, but a few years ago 60 Minutes did a story on how few FBS football schools actually make money and it was shockingly low as I recall.
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  #207  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:41 AM
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There is no way volleyball is self supported. They don't even charge admission to get into a game. Why, I'm not sure. They pack the Frerick's center most nights and I can't believe a $3 ticket would keep many away. I used to pay $6 for a Dayton Metro 6th grade boys basketball game (had to pay for those exorbitant ref fees for an hour of work--in cash I might add--right Rollo?)
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  #208  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
I'm not sure I buy this connection. Any legitimate studies on the issue?
Yes. Tons. Google it.

I don't know what you're not buying. A school looks for ways to boost its enrollment and applicant pool. They add football. One of their stated reasons for adding it is to boost enrollment. Applications increase after they add football. It's pretty cut and dry.

The only FBS school in the last thirty or so years to cut its football program brought it back six months later when they realized just how essential it actually was. They also realized that when everything was itemized out that football actually did pay for itself, and just dropping it like they did was going to cost the school close to $50 million in damages to the other conference schools, lost TV revenue, lost playoff revenue, and having to buyout games that had been scheduled. That doesn't count the decrease in applications and the HUGE decrease in giving not just to athletics, but across the board.

I know everyone on here thinks that every school that plays FBS football is doing it wrong, and it's easy to think that when you're not an FBS school and things are going as well as they are at Dayton, but there is a reason schools keep adding it, and there is a reason schools choose not to get rid of it, and there is a reason that the only school that did get rid of it ended up bringing it back once they realized just how much they actually relied on it.

Now, what you might start to see more of at the non-Power Five FBS schools is that football will basically have to support itself without any sort of athletic department supplement going to football. I believe that is essentially how UAB now operates. There is a football foundation (or something like that) that raises all the money they need for football to where it's not coming from a supplement from the school. But, the schools that have added football did it for a reason, and they feel that they do get something out of it. Now, as it was pointed out none of the schools I've mentioned are in the MAC, and I realize that Buffalo recently decided to cut four sports, so things might be different up there. But in CUSA and Sun Belt country they want football, and they feel what they get out of it is worth the cost of having it.
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  #209  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
The DI minimum attendance requirement is something like 13-15K average. Many MAC schools do not get 850 people in the stands for a Tuesday night game on ESPN2 in the middle of November. I have personally sat in front of my TV and counted every human on the opposite side stands (including traveling band members) and gotten less than 200 several times. In-game footage of the home sideline grandstand was not much better.

These schools are papering the house worse than Wright State basketball. One of two things are happening: they have just enough whales to buy cheap tickets to keep the schools DI eligible when there are no bodies to fill the seats, or people honestly bought tickets and decided picking the lint out of their belly button all night was more entertaining and elected to stay home.

Either scenario is highly problematic for these athletic departments. I watched a Miami OH home game a year or two ago and counted fewer than 150 actual bodies there -- not including the band that was required to show up. When Big Ben was there, they got big crowds and Miami football was THE sport there. Now their entire athletic department is in tatters. They now see themselves as a hockey school -- and even that's been down lately. They used to have a good mens soccer program. That, and mens tennis and wrestling were eliminated about 15yrs ago.
I'm hesitant to post this because I don't know the exact details of it, but I THINK the MAC has some sort of deal worked out with the Big Ten in their scheduling agreement that, technically speaking and ONLY for the purposes of attendance, the game at the Big Ten school is a "home game" for the MAC school. In other words, they can count that game as part of their average home attendance to get to the required 15,000 minimum.
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  #210  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:24 AM
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I have been told in the past, though I don't know if this is still true, but if you account for the money brought in by the football players attending UD (in theory, if UD dropped football none to few of these athletes would still be attending UD and paying tuition) that UD football essentially breaks even.

Outside of men's basketball, I have trouble envisioning any other full scholarship program at UD bringing in enough money in ticket sales to cover the cost of coaching salaries and scholarships. I assume there are some sports that only offer partial scholarships, or perhaps have only a handful of players on full scholarship that may tilt the scales in the same way that football does. I don't know the breakdown by sport on who offers scholarships and at what level.
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  #211  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
I have been told in the past, though I don't know if this is still true, but if you account for the money brought in by the football players attending UD (in theory, if UD dropped football none to few of these athletes would still be attending UD and paying tuition) that UD football essentially breaks even.

Outside of men's basketball, I have trouble envisioning any other full scholarship program at UD bringing in enough money in ticket sales to cover the cost of coaching salaries and scholarships. I assume there are some sports that only offer partial scholarships, or perhaps have only a handful of players on full scholarship that may tilt the scales in the same way that football does. I don't know the breakdown by sport on who offers scholarships and at what level.
Although I'm a proponent of the football program,I think saying that football player tuition is "income" and could be counted as offsetting the cost of the program is shakey at best. If the football players were not here, their spots would be filled by tuition paying students and the net income would be the same.
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  #212  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:50 AM
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The 15,000 rule isn't strictly enforced anymore. Schools can "sell" a bunch of tickets to a corporate sponsor for pennies on the dollar & give away tickets to alumni & new graduates to paper things over enough to cover costs.

MAC football sold out attendance for the TV money & exposure that midweek games gave the conference.

New Mexico St got kicked out of the Sun Belt & found it was cheaper to stay on as an independent in FBS than move down a level to FCS (I-AA). Going out & playing four buy games on the road against Power 5 schools pays them a going rate of little over one million dollars per game
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Medford View Post
I have been told in the past, though I don't know if this is still true, but if you account for the money brought in by the football players attending UD (in theory, if UD dropped football none to few of these athletes would still be attending UD and paying tuition) that UD football essentially breaks even.

Outside of men's basketball, I have trouble envisioning any other full scholarship program at UD bringing in enough money in ticket sales to cover the cost of coaching salaries and scholarships. I assume there are some sports that only offer partial scholarships, or perhaps have only a handful of players on full scholarship that may tilt the scales in the same way that football does. I don't know the breakdown by sport on who offers scholarships and at what level.
On your first point, that is also what I have heard and believe to still be true. Not only that , but the quality of student that comes because of football is very good. Every year the football athletes receive academic accolades. This year:
79 made the PFL honor roll
3 named CoSida Academic AA - Beaschler 1st team, Yinger and Leisring 2nd team (11 UD players nominated)
http://daytonflyers.com/news/2016/12...sida-academic- all-america.aspx
12 named to NFF Hampshire Honor Society
http://daytonflyers.com/news/2017/4/...e-society.aspx
Chris Beaschler was named one of 12 finalists for the NFF Campbell Trophy, which is better known as the Academic Heisman.
http://daytonflyers.com/news/2016/10...?path=football

If you read the articles, I think you will agree that these are impressive accomplishments. There are several more, but what is notable is that these awards (other than the PFL awards which I didn't list) cover all levels of Div I.

I believe the only programs that charge admission are WBB and football, and it is a very small charge. WBB is full scholarship, and perhaps VB, all the rest are partial or none. No program other than MBB can cover their own expenses, but that doesn't mean they aren't valuable to the university in other ways.
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  #214  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Although I'm a proponent of the football program,I think saying that football player tuition is "income" and could be counted as offsetting the cost of the program is shakey at best. If the football players were not here, their spots would be filled by tuition paying students and the net income would be the same.
I won't argue against that, just how I was once told they calculated revenue down in the athletic department for football.
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:14 PM
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Income?

Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Although I'm a proponent of the football program,I think saying that football player tuition is "income" and could be counted as offsetting the cost of the program is shakey at best. If the football players were not here, their spots would be filled by tuition paying students and the net income would be the same.
Not only isn't FB tuition "income"....it's counted as an expense.
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  #216  
Old 04-09-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Not only isn't FB tuition "income"....it's counted as an expense.
How can something that the football players and their families pay to the University be considered a University "expense"? Sounds like Wright State administrative math to me.
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  #217  
Old 04-09-2017, 01:56 PM
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sooo...Dayton to AAC, or nah?
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  #218  
Old 04-09-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Not only isn't FB tuition "income"....it's counted as an expense.
At schools that have full scholarships yes, at Dayton and the rest of the Pioneer League it is actually income. It is the same reason DIII schools have so many sports. More sports, more athletes, more people paying to go to school.
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Old 04-09-2017, 03:41 PM
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Tuition

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
How can something that the football players and their families pay to the University be considered a University "expense"? Sounds like Wright State administrative math to me.
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
At schools that have full scholarships yes, at Dayton and the rest of the Pioneer League it is actually income. It is the same reason DIII schools have so many sports. More sports, more athletes, more people paying to go to school.
I'll bet that the typical UD FB player gets close to a free ride. I understand that FB players at UD are not on athletic scholarship....and that financial aid is "need based". Nonetheless, according to UD its financial aid is substantial and very generous. And a FB player's family "need" determination can be quite subjective....as is also the case in the Ivy league model, for example.

There are ways to "accommodate" athletes at need-based schools. A non-athlete's family might qualify for $30K of assistance, for example. UD provides the assistance in the form of a $10K grant...a $10K job working in a cafeteria...and a $10K loan. An athlete's family in exactly the same financial circumstance....$30K need....has the need met in the form of a $30K university grant. Big difference to the family and student.

Of course, some kids (athletes) come from financially well-off families and have no financial need no matter how it's looked at. Such families pay full freight. But, I'll bet that doesn't happen often.

We have at least one FB player dad on this site. Information like this is personal, of course, but if that dad has any comment re his son's aid experience (if any), now would be a good time to make it.
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  #220  
Old 04-09-2017, 04:06 PM
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Why would a parent of a player that may be receiving aid respond to a question like that on a forum like this one, or any one for that matter?
Aid could be asigned to the sport but it would still have to fit in the $1M budget. And no way would tuition paid by an athlete be charged as an expense to the budget. I agree there are creative ways to give aid. SDU and Jacksonville ran afoul of the Pioneer league for being too 'creative".
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Old 04-09-2017, 04:19 PM
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No question

Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
Why would a parent of a player that may be receiving aid respond to a question like that on a forum like this one, or any one for that matter?
Aid could be asigned to the sport but it would still have to fit in the $1M budget. And no way would tuition paid by an athlete be charged as an expense to the budget. I agree there are creative ways to give aid. SDU and Jacksonville ran afoul of the Pioneer league for being too 'creative".
I said that such information is personal...which it is....I asked no question....merely inquired if a dad who really had the facts would care to comment.

I forget the exact percentage; but UD claims some very high figure for the percentage of students receiving aid...and the U says how much, on average.
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Old 04-09-2017, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerinChicago View Post
sooo...Dayton to AAC, or nah?
If you get the chance, I'd say do it.

I know Dayton doesn't play FBS football, but when you look at the Big East and Conference USA before that, the one thing that you can say for both of them is that the non-football schools who were members of those leagues ended up being better off than they would have had they not joined them. At the very least, none of them ended up worse off. And, hybrid leagues aren't the only leagues that fold. The Southwest Conference was a strong league that folded. The WAC was a strong league that practically folded (although technically still exists even though virtually none of the current membership were members of the classic WAC lineup).

Lastly, when it comes to basketball and the other Olympic sports, I think Dayton has more in common with the AAC in terms of how they value it and how they approach it than the vast majority of the A10. The vast majority of the A10 is operating with half the cash, half the resources, and half the fan support that UD is. As a general basketball fan, there are maybe two or three A10 teams that it's fun to watch Dayton play against. In the AAC there is Memphis (who lost two of their best three players, but is still on the verge of being a consistent tournament caliber program again), Houston who should be a tournament caliber team this year, Cincinnati who is a natural rival, SMU (and I do think Jankovic will keep them competitive), Temple, UCF who is much improved even if they lose Tacko Fall, UConn, and of course WICHITA STATE.

Throw in the fact that you'd be making more money from the media deal than the entire Atlantic Ten combined, then it's a no brainer. If Dayton gets the chance to go and chooses not to because they end up talking themselves out of it for whatever reason, I think it wold be a HUGE mistake. Dayton is not getting into the Big East. I'm not saying that because I don't want UD in the Big East. I'm saying that because they're not getting in. So, to pass this up for something that probably has a less than one percent chance of happening is a mistake. If the conference comes courting Dayton and VCU, and the rumor is that they may be considering it (which I realize is a long way from a certainty), then I think it's a huge mistake to turn it down.

Last edited by xubrew; 04-09-2017 at 06:27 PM..
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Old 04-09-2017, 06:45 PM
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Big East or AAC expand again it might be good to get out while the getting is good
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Old 04-09-2017, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I'll bet that the typical UD FB player gets close to a free ride.

I'll take that bet! Tell me how much we're wagering and if it's worth it I'll produce the numbers. And those numbers will be in student loan debt from multi-year starters.
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Big East or AAC expand again it might be good to get out while the getting is good
Agree. Even though the AAC is a little more risky from a football point of view, we should go if given the opportunity.
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:22 PM
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If UD AND VCU are invited we would be crazy not to go. Even if a couple teams left there would be a heck of a nucleus for a great basketball conference with the two of us and Wichita State.
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
It was a big mistake for the A10 to not reach out to Wichita before this
Any chance that they did reach out and Wichita State simply went with the AAC instead?
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
? Done what?
Apologies for the late response: I was meaning that you have opened up a can of worms. Or maybe not. But years ago I use to argue on this board that UD should drop football and I was almost always significantly outnumbered in those discussions.
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
Any chance that they did reach out and Wichita State simply went with the AAC instead?
someone here I think said they reached out to all to 3 and went with Wichita St
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
someone here I think said they reached out to all to 3 and went with Wichita St
I think he meant did the A-10 reach out to Wichita State.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:13 PM
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We seem to be destined to remain in the A-10 for the indefinite future based on these comments from the AAC commisioner (and the success the BE has recently enjoyed). Now as many posters have pointed out, that is not necessarily a terrible thing in that we should find ourselves in the NCAAT each and every year as a rule of thumb. Then our success will be defined on advancing... Frankly I'm OK with that scenario as a worst-case. But there would be some satisfaction leaving a conference where too many members simply are along for the ride and the commisioner has no leverage to change that.

http://www.courant.com/sports/basket...407-story.html

From the referenced article: The American Athletic Conference got the upgrade its men's basketball programs desired but, commissioner Mike Aresco asserted, the addition of Wichita State is not the start of a trend….
The conference took a half-step, adding Navy as a football-only member for 2015. Now, Wichita State, which dropped football in 1986, comes in to give the conference 12 members in men's and women's basketball.

But if you're waiting for the American to go after Atlantic 10 basketball programs like Dayton or Virginia Commonwealth, Aresco suggested that is not happening. Any future expansion would favor schools that play football and basketball.


"We sure are done for now," he said. "Being at 12 and 12 is extremely comfortable. … Adding one basketball school would not take us back to old days. If there is further expansion on horizon, you can do it on an orderly way. If you had multiple basketball schools, it would inhibit that."
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Yes. Tons. Google it.

I don't know what you're not buying. A school looks for ways to boost its enrollment and applicant pool. They add football. One of their stated reasons for adding it is to boost enrollment. Applications increase after they add football. It's pretty cut and dry.

The only FBS school in the last thirty or so years to cut its football program brought it back six months later when they realized just how essential it actually was. They also realized that when everything was itemized out that football actually did pay for itself, and just dropping it like they did was going to cost the school close to $50 million in damages to the other conference schools, lost TV revenue, lost playoff revenue, and having to buyout games that had been scheduled. That doesn't count the decrease in applications and the HUGE decrease in giving not just to athletics, but across the board.

I know everyone on here thinks that every school that plays FBS football is doing it wrong, and it's easy to think that when you're not an FBS school and things are going as well as they are at Dayton, but there is a reason schools keep adding it, and there is a reason schools choose not to get rid of it, and there is a reason that the only school that did get rid of it ended up bringing it back once they realized just how much they actually relied on it.

Now, what you might start to see more of at the non-Power Five FBS schools is that football will basically have to support itself without any sort of athletic department supplement going to football. I believe that is essentially how UAB now operates. There is a football foundation (or something like that) that raises all the money they need for football to where it's not coming from a supplement from the school. But, the schools that have added football did it for a reason, and they feel that they do get something out of it. Now, as it was pointed out none of the schools I've mentioned are in the MAC, and I realize that Buffalo recently decided to cut four sports, so things might be different up there. But in CUSA and Sun Belt country they want football, and they feel what they get out of it is worth the cost of having it.
I get that enrollment increased after adding FBS football. What I am not necessarily buying is that football is the reason for that increase.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I think he meant did the A-10 reach out to Wichita State.
Yeah that's what I meant.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
At schools that have full scholarships yes, at Dayton and the rest of the Pioneer League it is actually income. It is the same reason DIII schools have so many sports. More sports, more athletes, more people paying to go to school.
But who's really paying full freight these days? And further, as another poster mentioned, if football were dropped tomorrow, doesn't UD have enough other applicants to easily fill those spots with students paying on average roughly the same amount in tuition?
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:32 PM
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I can hardly think of a single reason to join the AAC. We have won 7 conference titles in the A-10 this academic year. No school in the country has done better in their conference. We are having unprecedented success in the A-10.

http://daytonflyers.com/news/2017/4/...he-flyers.aspx

The first chance UConn or UC gets to bolt - they are gone from the AAC. I am surprised Wichita is joining - although I think that is more a commentary on the weakness of the MVC than the strength of the AAC. I really think Wichita State has more in common with the A-10 than the AAC. I am not sure the geography is much better in the AAC for them. Would be interesting to see the average mileage for Wichita to each AAC school versus each A-10 school.
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  #236  
Old 04-09-2017, 08:49 PM
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OK, you're on!

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I'll take that bet! Tell me how much we're wagering and if it's worth it I'll produce the numbers. And those numbers will be in student loan debt from multi-year starters.
Provide the facts and the next time I'm in Dayton we'll go to the Pine Club...on me.
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Old 04-09-2017, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05 View Post
Yeah that's what I meant.
Misread you. As far as I know, no
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:03 PM
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I get your point UD69, but I want to be in a conference that supplies the best level of national competition top to bottom, and the panache to win more than our fair share of top 100 recruiting battles. As for dominating the A10, I am very confident all our programs would be elevated by top flight competiton. UD just has too much going for it with its lovely campus, staff, and its position as the 3rd largest R&D research school in the country among private Catholic universities (sorry for sounding like a commercial there). I guess the fact my D is starting at UD in the fall has me feeling very bullish on our school. But the fact is as a university we are simply better/as good as just about any BE peer, with our lapse in being good stewards of MBB in recent decades having given us a hang over. Now that we are out of our funk I think the sky is the limit. We just need the right platform to reach our sports potential.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:24 PM
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If VCU leaves, we should go with them. But I think the A10 is fine for now.

The National Collegiate Conference that someone mentioned (I think xubrew and Chris R both had a version of it) sounds like the best idea, although perhaps too hard to pull off.

If you can find 24 schools in 3 separate conferences, each with an auto-bid, you can schedule 14 conference games with home-and-home plus at the end each conference's #1 plays each other (with each team getting one game home and one away), and the #2s play each other, etc. 16 game 'conference' schedule. Perfect.

But are there 24 schools that would make sense?

West: Gonzaga, St Mary's, Nevada, New Mexico, San Diego State, BYU, ??, ??
Midwest: Wichita State, Dayton, St. Louis, Illinois State, Belmont, ??, ??, ??
East: VCU, UMass, Richmond, Davidson, Rhode Island, George Mason, ??, ??

I don't really see three divisions/conferences of teams worth taking. And if it's only two divisions, the best option would really just be the top A10 teams + Wichita State and then the tops of WCC and MWC.

It'd be better with smaller conferences, but you could do it now if you wanted with just the A10, MWC, and WCC. They are 14, 11, and 10 teams, respectively. Top 10 in each conference each play two games against each other. Then something weird with the bottom 4 A10 teams and last place MWC team such that they all get 2 games but nobody plays each other twice. (Although with that setup the A10 teams could end up playing each other for the 3rd time in the same season.)
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Old 04-09-2017, 10:05 PM
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VCU and Dayton are going nowhere. The AAC and and BE aren't expanding further. And I don't think those two are taking the lead on forming a new conference that gets A10 like money.
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
We seem to be destined to remain in the A-10 for the indefinite future based on these comments from the AAC commisioner (and the success the BE has recently enjoyed). Now as many posters have pointed out, that is not necessarily a terrible thing in that we should find ourselves in the NCAAT each and every year as a rule of thumb. Then our success will be defined on advancing... Frankly I'm OK with that scenario as a worst-case. But there would be some satisfaction leaving a conference where too many members simply are along for the ride and the commissioner has no leverage to change that.
I'm not sure that is true. The conference could place certain requirements on schools (facilities, attendance, monetary support, etc.) and give them, say, five years to meet them. If the schools don't meet the requirements they could be asked (told) to join a conference that is more suitable to their commitment to basketball.
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Old 04-09-2017, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
If VCU leaves, we should go with them. But I think the A10 is fine for now.

The National Collegiate Conference that someone mentioned (I think xubrew and Chris R both had a version of it) sounds like the best idea, although perhaps too hard to pull off.

If you can find 24 schools in 3 separate conferences, each with an auto-bid, you can schedule 14 conference games with home-and-home plus at the end each conference's #1 plays each other (with each team getting one game home and one away), and the #2s play each other, etc. 16 game 'conference' schedule. Perfect.

But are there 24 schools that would make sense?

West: Gonzaga, St Mary's, Nevada, New Mexico, San Diego State, BYU, ??, ??
Midwest: Wichita State, Dayton, St. Louis, Illinois State, Belmont, ??, ??, ??
East: VCU, UMass, Richmond, Davidson, Rhode Island, George Mason, ??, ??

I don't really see three divisions/conferences of teams worth taking. And if it's only two divisions, the best option would really just be the top A10 teams + Wichita State and then the tops of WCC and MWC.

It'd be better with smaller conferences, but you could do it now if you wanted with just the A10, MWC, and WCC. They are 14, 11, and 10 teams, respectively. Top 10 in each conference each play two games against each other. Then something weird with the bottom 4 A10 teams and last place MWC team such that they all get 2 games but nobody plays each other twice. (Although with that setup the A10 teams could end up playing each other for the 3rd time in the same season.)
Wow I put together all that info for the National collegiate conference and don't even get credit for it.

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Old 04-09-2017, 11:41 PM
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The right track...

Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I'm not sure that is true. The conference could place certain requirements on schools (facilities, attendance, monetary support, etc.) and give them, say, five years to meet them. If the schools don't meet the requirements they could be asked (told) to join a conference that is more suitable to their commitment to basketball.
I agree. Conferences don't dump members. Many years ago when the Big East FB conference was relatively strong...well before the realignment era,...the conference put Temple on probation of sorts. Certain criteria were established and TU was given 5 years to comply. They did not and out they went.

If the A10 established reasonable criteria for facilities and gave schools not meeting those criteria five years to do so....and after five years one or more schools had not invested appropriately, the offending schools are essentially withdrawing from the conference. They are not being booted out.

Attendance should not be one of the criteria. A school could invest heavily and meet all the requirements for top notch facilities...but still not meet an attendance requirement. That's an unlikely scenario. If a school invests heavily in facilities it also would be doing all in can to recruit well and elevate its program. Usually that produces results and attendance takes care of itself.

Back to A10 facilities. I have not seen Fordham's Rose Hill Gym or LaSalle's Gola Arena....but Priders have said they are awful and do not meet even minimum standards. If that is true both schools are saying f*** you to the conference and its members. How can that be tolerated? Recruits are very impressed by facilities, understandably. Schools with poor facilities will not be able to compete at the level expected of the A10.

Time to play hardball, I think. How can UD/Neil not exert a bit of pressure in this area? Loss of UD would be devastating for the A10. Surely we must have some clout. UD is the crown jewel of the A10.
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Old 04-10-2017, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Wow I put together all that info for the National collegiate conference and don't even get credit for it.
Sorry about that. It's Avid Flyer's contribution!

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Old 04-10-2017, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Wow I put together all that info for the National collegiate conference and don't even get credit for it.
Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
Sorry about that. It's Avid Flyer's contribution!

If you look back a year or two, somewhere on one of these threads I had a crazy post similar to what your both saying, with 4 divisions with 4 teams each (north, south, east, and west) with pretty much the same teams you two mentioned. I think I called it the Great American Conference.

Moral of this post, Great minds think alike!

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showth...can+conference

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Old 04-10-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I agree. Conferences don't dump members. Many years ago when the Big East FB conference was relatively strong...well before the realignment era,...the conference put Temple on probation of sorts. Certain criteria were established and TU was given 5 years to comply. They did not and out they went.
The circumstances there were entirely different because Temple was never actually in the Big East. They were an affiliate football member. They had no vote and no real say in anything.

I'm not going to say that it has never happened, but I personally cannot recall a single incident where a full voting member of a conference was ever kicked out. It did almost happen to UAB, but even they were allowed to stay once they brought back football.

The problem with establishing "reasonable criteria" is that whatever you establish pretty much has to be unanimously approved. That's the Catch 22. The schools that don't want to step it up are not going to vote to approve any criteria that they don't want to be bothered with having to meet, so you're kind of stuck.

Hey, I feel your frustration. The A10 has some great programs in it, but I can't help but think that they're being held back. You want to play hard ball, but there is no real way to do that. The A10 has some great programs in it that care about basketball, but they have that in the sense that a junkyard has some great stuff in it that, if you pick through it and find it, are very useful. But, it's still a junkyard. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned not being able to form a new league that made A10-like money. I'd venture to say that any new league that may be formed would easily result in making at least twice as much money per school as what the A10 currently makes. I think UD should flirt with the AAC, and if that doesn't work I think that the quality programs that care about basketball the way that UD does (or at least more than the bottom half of the A10 does) should do their own thing. I'm not saying anything that I wasn't saying back in the days when X was a full member.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:16 AM
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Conference rules

Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
The circumstances there were entirely different because Temple was never actually in the Big East. They were an affiliate football member. They had no vote and no real say in anything.

I'm not going to say that it has never happened, but I personally cannot recall a single incident where a full voting member of a conference was ever kicked out. It did almost happen to UAB, but even they were allowed to stay once they brought back football.

The problem with establishing "reasonable criteria" is that whatever you establish pretty much has to be unanimously approved. That's the Catch 22. The schools that don't want to step it up are not going to vote to approve any criteria that they don't want to be bothered with having to meet, so you're kind of stuck.

Hey, I feel your frustration. The A10 has some great programs in it, but I can't help but think that they're being held back. You want to play hard ball, but there is no real way to do that. The A10 has some great programs in it that care about basketball, but they have that in the sense that a junkyard has some great stuff in it that, if you pick through it and find it, are very useful. But, it's still a junkyard. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned not being able to form a new league that made A10-like money. I'd venture to say that any new league that may be formed would easily result in making at least twice as much money per school as what the A10 currently makes. I think UD should flirt with the AAC, and if that doesn't work I think that the quality programs that care about basketball the way that UD does (or at least more than the bottom half of the A10 does) should do their own thing. I'm not saying anything that I wasn't saying back in the days when X was a full member.
Are you saying that all decisions require unanimous approval? If that was the case how could anything ever get done? When I was a grad student at Northwestern, the only private in the Big 10, I recall NU complaining often about "always being on the short end of 9-1 votes", Certaining that suggests that unanimity was not required in the Big 10 at the time. I can see a 2/3 requirement, for example. But how could one or two A10 members dictate policy for the entire conference? Does anyone know the facts?
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:23 AM
xubrew xubrew is offline
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Are you saying that all decisions require unanimous approval? If that was the case how could anything ever get done? When I was a grad student at Northwestern, the only private in the Big 10, I recall NU complaining often about "always being on the short end of 9-1 votes", Certaining that suggests that unanimity was not required in the Big 10 at the time. I can see a 2/3 requirement, for example. But how could one or two A10 members dictate policy for the entire conference? Does anyone know the facts?
I actually forget the specifics. It also depends on what's being voted on. When it comes to deciding something like where to host the conference tournament it's a simple majority. When it comes to something like adding new members or changing/adding to the bylaws, it's either unanimous or over 75%.

It differs from conference to conference on how the voting works, or what it is that they even vote on.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:44 AM
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A10 and MVC merge. Best teams play in top division. Worst teams play in bottom division. Fluid soccer-style promotion and relegation between the two divisions. Creates pressure on traditional bottom dwellers for both conferences to be competitive and stay in top division. Adds another level of excitement, higher stakes for fans, media story lines leading to better TV deal. For non-revenue sports, divisions drawn between the divisions according to geography.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
I actually forget the specifics. It also depends on what's being voted on. When it comes to deciding something like where to host the conference tournament it's a simple majority. When it comes to something like adding new members or changing/adding to the bylaws, it's either unanimous or over 75%.

It differs from conference to conference on how the voting works, or what it is that they even vote on.
Many organizations, not just athletic conferences, require hefty 75-80% votes to change anything in the bylaws.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Many organizations, not just athletic conferences, require hefty 75-80% votes to change anything in the bylaws.
Time for UD to use the Nuclear option!
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
A10 and MVC merge. Best teams play in top division. Worst teams play in bottom division. Fluid soccer-style promotion and relegation between the two divisions. Creates pressure on traditional bottom dwellers for both conferences to be competitive and stay in top division. Adds another level of excitement, higher stakes for fans, media story lines leading to better TV deal. For non-revenue sports, divisions drawn between the divisions according to geography.
I think there would be a big gap between best teams from the A-10 and best teams from the MVC. Right now ISU is good but UNI is not, that's about is as far as best MVC schools. With WSU gone they are probably a one bid league most years, including this year with WSU. Like it or not we are in the A-10 for a while, maybe a long while. No way teams will be voted out of the league. pressure can be exerted to try to improve some of the programs but kicking them out isn't an option. New coaches at UMASS and Duquesne may help, but that would take time. Should a school opt to change leagues that is fine but forcing them to go won't happen.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:20 AM
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Here is how the voting goes

In a conference such as the A10, If the top program OR the top 2-3 programs up and leave, they voted with their feet.

Now at one time X and Butler did just that and next up is UD and VCU. X was a long time (relative) A10 member whereas Butler was a 1 year resident.

If a conference starts losing the best/better programs then the conference (what is left) need to figure out what they are and what they want/need to do.

If the A10 loses UD AND VCU, unfortunately for the conference it's too late to react to what ails it. IF St L gets its' act together you could see 3 programs wanting more somewhere else.

Of course it may be similar to the next man up syndrome but what is the A10 minus UD, VCU and maybe St L? What do you replace those programs with?? The conference has poor choices. So as a conference they should be concerned about listening to the top level programs before the voting starts (using their feet).
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:25 AM
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In order for UD to have any real sway, they've got to establish that they have another, legit option. Perhaps the AAC or The Big East is a legit option, behind closed doors, but publicly there is little indication that either is eager to include UD, VCU or anyone else from the A10. They also need to have a majority of the conference think that keeping UD, VCU, etc.. is a long term determent to their success. I doubt they'd ever admit, but you have to wonder if some at Duquesne would be happy to see UD, VCU & SLU leave as it eases the door for them to win an autobid. It certainly doesn't appear that they plan to spend at a similar level as any of those schools, hard to compete in the long term if you are always behind the 8 ball.

Not all these institutions want or have the ability to compete, long term, at what UD. VCU or SLU are attempting to do. The A10 has seen Pitt, Penn St, West Virginia, VTech, Xavier, Butler, Charlotte, Temple, Nova, Rutgers and Duquesne all leave at some point (Duquesne obviously rejoined), so its not like many are not used to operating with different leadership.

What I'm trying to say, is that there is a chance no matter how much pressure UD thinks it can apply, or perhaps even has applied, there may be little they can do to move the needle at some schools. The longer I've thought about this, the more I think that the AAC needs to be examined, particularly if that move includes VCU. Long term, attaching our stake to VCU & Wichita St (and possibly SLU) may serve UD basketball better than attaching their stake to St Joes, Bona and GW.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Time for UD to use the Nuclear option!
Wouldn't that be the same as the option to leave?
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
I think there would be a big gap between best teams from the A-10 and best teams from the MVC. Right now ISU is good but UNI is not, that's about is as far as best MVC schools. With WSU gone they are probably a one bid league most years, including this year with WSU. Like it or not we are in the A-10 for a while, maybe a long while. No way teams will be voted out of the league. pressure can be exerted to try to improve some of the programs but kicking them out isn't an option. New coaches at UMASS and Duquesne may help, but that would take time. Should a school opt to change leagues that is fine but forcing them to go won't happen.
There is a big gap. If you combined them and pulled top 12 by RPI excluding Wichita State, only 3 MVC teams would make the cut to the top division: Illinois State and then barely Southern Illinois & Northern Iowa. Won't happen because the majority of programs in both leagues would probably object, but it would actually be to Dayton's benefit I think.

26 Virginia Commonwealth
31 Rhode Island .
36 Dayton
39 Illinois State
72 Richmond
89 Davidson
91 St. Bonaventure
109 George Washington
123 George Mason
143 La Salle
147 Southern Illinois
158 Northern Iowa
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:43 AM
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If we just consider the men's and women's basketball programs we should leap at the chance to join the AAC. It looks like it would be more of a burden for travel for the other sports but if UD has a chance to upgrade your basketball conference it has to do it. I would still do it even if VCU or WSU weren't joining. UC, UCONN, Memphis and Temple coming to the arena every year? Also welcoming Brian Gregory and the USF Bulls? Sign me up.
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Old 04-10-2017, 12:36 PM
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The Solution

I once heard Old Big East commissioner Mike Tranghese explain why the ideal size for a BB conference is nine schools. I forget the details of his explanation; but it was sensible and one element of his argument was that it permitted a 16game schedule with home-and-home games with each member. Ten schools would permit an 18 game schedule.

So, if a few of the "power" schools in the A10, three or four leaders, teamed to support a complete conference restructuring....that omitted four or five weak sisters, based primarily on their poor facilities as evidence they lack a serious commitment to BB, that would result in a "new" A10 comprised of nine or ten schools.

Recall that when UD was a pathetic member of the Great Midwest conference, when the GMW morphed into Conference USA UD a few others were not invited. Imagine a similar situation: Nine or ten of the "serious" A10 members form a "New A10" with a new name, comprised essentially of the old A10 less four or five schools that are unwilling to invest for success.

Such a move, like most, requires leadership. In this case, probably the three strongest A10 schools, or something like that.

Won't happen.
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Old 04-10-2017, 02:19 PM
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Am I missing something? I thought the AAC commissioner said they are not looking at any other schools and if and when the time comes to expand again it would most certainly be a school with football. So why do we keep discussing the AAC, it doesn't seem like its even a possibility. I think we are more likely, albeit a small chance, to be invited to the BE than the AAC.
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Old 04-10-2017, 02:39 PM
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At this point, it seems like UD's chances of getting into the NBE are next to zero.

1. League not looking to expand
2. We don't bring a new TV market into play that is of sufficient size

I'd be surprised if we were ever invited to that conference. UD's best option is likely a new conference, similar to what has already been discussed. The A10 served its purpose, but unless it expands with some additional quality or figures out how to get a better TV deal/more money, is not a long-term solution.
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:24 PM
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Morphed into a general conference discussion

Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
Am I missing something? I thought the AAC commissioner said they are not looking at any other schools and if and when the time comes to expand again it would most certainly be a school with football. ......
Re UD using its leverage...someone said that unless UD has somewhere to go that won't work. I agree. My suggestion above is that the entire A10 has "somewhere to go", i.e. new conference is formed made up of nine or ten current A10 schools.....and four or five current members simply are not invited to join. Probably Fordham, LaSalle, St. Bona (these three are a better fit in the MAAC) and one other.

This sort of thing is really hard ball and will not happen. A reason? It hurts sister institutions. I remember well that when the ACC carried out its unprecedented raid on the Big East about a decade ago several prominent ACC coaches and faculty raised objections for that very reason...it was clear that sister institutions were being hurt at the benefit of the ACC schools. Well, the "pain" didn't last long because such raids have become common.

The eight or nine "strong" A10 schools would feel mighty queasy, in my opinion, about embarrassing and/or otherwise causing pain for the schools left behind. On the other hand, for a majority insisting that there be minimum facility standards as evidence of commitment to BB seems reasonable and fair. Schools that fail to agree to meet such standards are essentially withdrawing from the league, not being booted out. Is it not true that Fordham and Duquesne play FCS scholarship FB? If so there is a cost associated with that. Indeed, a cost for any kind of FB which requires money not available for BB. And the A10 is a BB conference.

I would think that a major metropolitan university like Fordham would be embarrassed to entertain conference and OOC opponents in a high-school-like facility. Dayton has just about the finest facilities for everything with an athletics budget that I think has reached ~ $25 million. I wonder how that compares to the budgets of the A10 weak sisters.
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:51 PM
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I get all of the general conference discussion but there are still people on this thread, as recently as today, saying we should jump at the opportunity to join the AAC if we get the invite. By the sounds of the commissioner there will be no invite so maybe we should start a new "new conference" thread.
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
I get all of the general conference discussion but there are still people on this thread, as recently as today, saying we should jump at the opportunity to join the AAC if we get the invite. By the sounds of the commissioner there will be no invite so maybe we should start a new "new conference" thread.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you. But just a few weeks back their commissioner was quoted as saying if they ever expanded that they would not add a basketball only school that they would only be adding football schools. A few weeks later Wichita State has joined. So like coaches and AD's you can't always take commissioners at their word.
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Old 04-10-2017, 04:37 PM
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Agree, but I do think this was a unique situation. You have a 12 team conference for football with Navy as an associate(?) member for football only. You have 11 teams for all other sports. One non-football school gets you to 12 for all sports.

My guess is the current statement is closer to correct than the former.

UD's options, if they are interested in something, is to work with VCU and others in the A10 to form a new conference. Might require/need to add a few other members similar to what the GMW did in forming CUSA.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:18 PM
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Why new members?

Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Agree, but I do think this was a unique situation. You have a 12 team conference for football with Navy as an associate(?) member for football only. You have 11 teams for all other sports. One non-football school gets you to 12 for all sports.

My guess is the current statement is closer to correct than the former.

UD's options, if they are interested in something, is to work with VCU and others in the A10 to form a new conference. Might require/need to add a few other members similar to what the GMW did in forming CUSA.
Don't you think that from the 14 current A10 members there are nine or ten that are very serious about BB at the highest level? I do. I don't see the need for searching for new members. And, if you stick with current members only it's not quite as complicated as "starting a new conference".....more like restructuring the one you have.

I still think the idea of establishing criteria for facilities et al is a very good way to determine who is serious and who is not. Some schools would have to commit millions to come up to the standard. If they are not willing to do that they are essentially withdrawing from the A10. St. Joes doesn't have anything like our Arena. But a few years ago they invested about $20 million, as I recall, to bring their BB facilities up to much higher level. In a city like Philly a school like SJU is never going to draw UD's 13000....but they still have a ~ 4000-5000 seat facility with all other aspects of their BB facilities as good as ours, I'm told. Many (most?) A10 schools have good facilities. The ones that have poor facilities are sending a message as clear as can be....they are not interested in BB at the highest level.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:37 PM
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He says now more basketball only schools but as we've seen in the past these things change
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:07 PM
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Summer on UD Pride...

I've been a member of this community since 2001. I don't recall an offseason where this topic wasn't discussed ad nauseum. I used to get excited about the prospect of joining with the members of the NBE. Frankly, Butler stole our spot and that ship has sailed.

We're not going anywhere until a tectonic shift happens with college football. Our best option now is to stay relevant nationally by always competing for the A10 championship.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:04 PM
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With conferences beginning to switch to 20 game conference schedules, I could see the Big East expanding to do the same.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
Don't you think that from the 14 current A10 members there are nine or ten that are very serious about BB at the highest level? I do. I don't see the need for searching for new members. And, if you stick with current members only it's not quite as complicated as "starting a new conference".....more like restructuring the one you have.

I still think the idea of establishing criteria for facilities et al is a very good way to determine who is serious and who is not. Some schools would have to commit millions to come up to the standard. If they are not willing to do that they are essentially withdrawing from the A10. St. Joes doesn't have anything like our Arena. But a few years ago they invested about $20 million, as I recall, to bring their BB facilities up to much higher level. In a city like Philly a school like SJU is never going to draw UD's 13000....but they still have a ~ 4000-5000 seat facility with all other aspects of their BB facilities as good as ours, I'm told. Many (most?) A10 schools have good facilities. The ones that have poor facilities are sending a message as clear as can be....they are not interested in BB at the highest level.
I think there are political and other issues if nine or ten leave and form a separate conference with no outside blood. Essentially that is just kicking members out. Not sure how it plays in court etc.

Also not sure how many I put in the trying to compete level: UD, VCU, SLU, URI definitely. Davidson, Richmond, St Joes probably. Fordham, Duquesne, LaSalle, St Bona definitely not. GW and GM maybe. UMass probably goes to CUSA or MAC if A10 breaks up. Take 7 or 8 and add 2 or 3 from elsewhere.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:02 PM
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I think it is interesting that I hear arguments about other A10 schools and how much of a drag they are because of their facilities. It seems like how well a team schedules and performs on the court (consistently) matters more than facilities. I could care less if LaSalle has a tiny gym if they are competitive and bring a solid team to conference play. I can't remember the last time LaSalle had a streak of being one of the bottom 3 teams year after year.

One of the problems is, is that the A10 has too many teams that don't keep up the consistency and drop off for a few years before fielding another good run, and a lot of times only get to the NIT when they finally get it together. Therefore, taking the relegation idea someone mentioned, it would be interesting to split the conference into two groups and relegate/promote teams between the groups based on performance. Each group would play home and away games with 6 (or 7) games against the other group and the upper tier would automatically get the top seven seeds in the A10 tournament. This would somewhat protect the upper tier teams when it comes to seeding in the NCAA and boost the top groups overall strength of schedule.

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  #271  
Old 04-10-2017, 08:48 PM
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Will the A10 see what the MVC has seen?

A few years ago, Creighton left the MVC. Now Wichita State.

So what is the MVC at this present time? Fair to middlin?

Temple, Butler, W_YZ left, Charlotte, but specifically the first 3 count greater as an impact due to their being a higher level program. So if UD and VCU or VCU or UD singularly removed themselves from the A10? The sole remaining teams are faced with what a fair to middlin conference.

The question does Dayton wait and be reactive or start forging their own future?

I don't know the answer to that. I do know organizations that wait to react are usually NOT your best organizations.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:56 PM
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Conference by laws

Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I think there are political and other issues if nine or ten leave and form a separate conference with no outside blood. Essentially that is just kicking members out. Not sure how it plays in court etc.

Also not sure how many I put in the trying to compete level: UD, VCU, SLU, URI definitely. Davidson, Richmond, St Joes probably. Fordham, Duquesne, LaSalle, St Bona definitely not. GW and GM maybe. UMass probably goes to CUSA or MAC if A10 breaks up. Take 7 or 8 and add 2 or 3 from elsewhere.
I have no idea how the A10 operates..its bylaws, etc. We recently added a new school, Davidson. Did that require a unanimous vote.....a 2/3 or 3/4 vote? No doubt whether an issue requires a unanimous vote depends on the issue. Indeed, it may be that nothing requires a unanimous vote. Using the Davidson example, would they have been admitted if 12 schools voted to add them and one school opposed the addition for whatever reason?

Suppose UD, SLU and VCU acting together,... recognizing that recruits (and coaches) are greatly impressed by facilities because facilities reflect commitment,....proposed a resolution for consideration by the members requiring that all schools have five years to meet specified criteria re quality of facilities. The rationale being that top quality facilities will result, over time, in better teams by way of quality coaching and recruiting....thereby benefitting the conference as a whole.....RPIs, NCAA bids, better TV deal, etc.

This is not like coming up with a cancer cure or travel to Mars. It's hard to think of anything simpler. Are the politics of conferences so complicated and/or arcane that such a proposal cannot even be contemplated?... nothing can be done to improve the conference from within? That's really hard to believe.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:56 PM
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A few weeks ago I was very opposed to the idea of joining the AAC, but I am starting to more legitimately consider the benefits. Travel would be terrible, of course, but it's already not all that great in the A-10. But what intrigues me is that the members of the AAC are essentially all national universities, whereas the A-10 is full of schools that would be considered by most definitions as regional universities. I believe that UD wants to be seen as the former and not the latter, so institutionally I think that the AAC is more in line with our goals (even if no other AAC school would be Catholic). And the AAC has a strong presence in the Sun Belt, which I also believe has been a focus for recruitment in recent years.

In regards to athletics, the AAC is a slight but definitive step up for mens basketball, and assumedly an improvement in almost every other sport as well. I think that this is true even if a few (say, no more than 2) AAC members bolt. If more than a few were to be picked up by a Power 5 conference, being stuck with the leftovers would be worse than the current situation. But if that were to happen, that's when serious conversations about forming a new conference with the best remaining AAC, A-10, and MVC could be initiated.

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Old 04-10-2017, 09:09 PM
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May be missing the point....

Originally Posted by NorthwestFlyer View Post
I think it is interesting that I hear arguments about other A10 schools and how much of a drag they are because of their facilities. It seems like how well a team schedules and performs on the court (consistently) matters more than facilities. I could care less if LaSalle has a tiny gym if they are competitive and bring a solid team to conference play. I can't remember the last time LaSalle had a streak of being one of the bottom 3 teams year after year...
Northwest, the key point is that how well teams perform depends on the quality of the players they recruit and the coaches they are able to hire. Our AD will tell you that both HS recruits and coaches are enormously impressed by the quality of facilities. Really good facilities are a reflection of a school's commitment to athletics....is the school really a big-time player, etc. And even with our superb facilities we have a tough time recruiting top players.

A10 schools with high-school-like facilities find it almost impossible to bring in really good players...and that affects the way the team performs, of course. Sure, once in a while a Fordham or LaSalle will get lucky and land a star that was overlooked. But consistently solid performance from such schools is just about impossible. Coaching candidates and recruits come in and see really sub-standard facilities in comparison to what they see elsewhere....and what do you suppose they think? FU and LU and the likes have to settle for personal that can't do better somewhere else. That's why facilities are so important.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:49 PM
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Fordham or La Salle can't be made to spend to money to build facilities. There's no way to make a program in the A10 commit to top tier basketball. The best is too hope more programs go the way of recent commitment to basketball that Duquesne has taken with paying for Dambrot & renovating their arena
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Fordham or La Salle can't be made to spend to money to build facilities. There's no way to make a program in the A10 commit to top tier basketball. The best is too hope more programs go the way of recent commitment to basketball that Duquesne has taken with paying for Dambrot & renovating their arena
Duquesne has been trying for awhile, they have just made bad coaching decisions. They have upgraded their arena and practice facilities the last couple of years, and are playing more games at PPG Paints Arena. Hopefully Dambrot can finally help them get over the hump But compared to most schools in the A10, Duquesne has spent quite a bit of money to invest in basketball.

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Old 04-11-2017, 12:03 AM
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If AAC expands again, what's the chance we get Munsoned by UC, like we got Munsoned by Xavier in the NBE?
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
If AAC expands again, what's the chance we get Munsoned by UC, like we got Munsoned by Xavier in the NBE?
UC is a lot more desperate for quality programs in the AAC.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:16 AM
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SI interview with AAC commish Mike Aresco

SI: And what about your conference in particular? Where do you feel like adding Wichita State puts you in terms of remaining at the status quo or exploring further?

MA: People have said to me, are you thinking about expansion down the road now that you've done this? This was prompted a little bit by what we went through this spring and summer with the whole Big 12 thing, and we started thinking, if we lose teams, what do we do? At the end of that process, I and others felt that we had room for one team, perhaps, in basketball, and Wichita was an obvious choice. It made sense because we wouldn't be going back to that old model that I didn't like, the multiple basketball-only school model. You never say never, and so I'd hate to say that we'd never think about it again, but it really is a difficult situation when you have a group of schools that have a different outlook. And Wichita really fits our profile better than, say, a small private school would.



In terms of the future, would we look at expansion down the road if it makes sense? Sure. If there were some schools that would add a lot of value and would fit culturally with the conference, sure, we could go to 14. The good thing about this is that it keeps us at 12 [basketball schools] and 12 [football schools]. That doesn't stymie the possibility of expansion down the road. We're not out looking to raid anyone. That's not what we're doing; that's not what I'm suggesting.
https://www.si.com/college-basketbal...ow_facebook_si

He's definitely leaving the door open.

If someone brings up the private school part, remember SMU, Tulsa & Tulane are private. Tulsa is actually smaller than UD

The outlook part is key because the basketball only schools weren't bought into the conference whereas anyone joining under their own volition would obviously be
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
UC is a lot more desperate for quality programs in the AAC.
UC and UConn want out of the AAC at their earliest opportunity.

I still cannot understand the interest in a conference where football wags the dog.
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:17 AM
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St. Bonaventure may not dump money in their program but they are maximizing what they do have. They are no anchor. LaSalle and Fordham are the drains in this conference.
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  #282  
Old 04-11-2017, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ud69 View Post
UC and UConn want out of the AAC at their earliest opportunity.

I still cannot understand the interest in a conference where football wags the dog.
Because it is still WAY more money and if Dayton and VCU are added WAY better than the A10. If we had joined for this upcoming year, we would have made more on our share of the TV money than the ENTIRE A10 combined. Not to mention, I watched a ton of AAC games this year on ESPN. Way more than A10 games. I lost count how many times I saw UC or UCF playing on ESPN this year. Could UC and UConn jump? Sure, but with VCU, WSU, and UD in the AAC, it is still a better league than the A10 with just us.
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  #283  
Old 04-11-2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
St. Bonaventure may not dump money in their program but they are maximizing what they do have. They are no anchor. LaSalle and Fordham are the drains in this conference.

Other than the Flyers almost annual loss in the middle of Siberia NY, St. Bony has done little to help the A-10. Yes, typically they are not the cellar dweller, but they bring a high school gym in a non existent TV market to the table. I doubt any Dayton recruit gets excited at the prospect of playing them yearly.

2007–08 St. Bonaventure 8–22 2–14 14th
2008–09 St. Bonaventure 15–15 6–10 11th
2009–10 St. Bonaventure 15–16 7–9 8th
2010–11 St. Bonaventure 16-15 8-8 7th CBI First Round
2011–12 St. Bonaventure 20–11 10–6 4th NCAA Second Round
2012–13 St. Bonaventure 14–15 7–9 11th
2013–14 St. Bonaventure 18–15 6–10 9th
2014–15 St. Bonaventure 18–13 10–8 T–7th
2015–16 St. Bonaventure 22–9 14–4 T–1st NIT First Round
2016–17 St. Bonaventure 20–12 11–7 5th
St. Bonaventure: 166–143 (.537) 81–85 (.488)
Total: 248–233 (.516)
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:23 AM
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Why is the AAC money so much better than the A10 money?

Market size, attendance size/fan base size, and football I guess.



The attendance is almost the same...6,250 per game in the AAC vs. 4,850 in the A10.

I still think this all moot, I think UC will never let Dayton in the AAC.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Why is the AAC money so much better than the A10 money?

Market size, attendance size/fan base size, and football I guess.



The attendance is almost the same...6,250 per game in the AAC vs. 4,850 in the A10.

I still think this all moot, I think UC will never let Dayton in the AAC.
Their TV deal is WAY better than the A10. As far as UC not letting UD in, Mick Cronin was just complaining about not having a team close by. I know travel wise, UC and UD would benefit from having a school nearby. They are not in the same position as X. UC has wanted a close rival.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
I doubt any Dayton recruit gets excited at the prospect of playing them yearly.
Actually I have to believe that game in Olean was a selling point in the recruitment of Dyshawn Pierce and Naziah Carter. Reasonable drives from Toronto and Rochester. Crosby gets pretty amped to play former teammate Jaylen Adams. For everyone else, there's always a chance of catching a glimpse of the world famous yeti from the bus!
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Other than the Flyers almost annual loss in the middle of Siberia NY, St. Bony has done little to help the A-10. Yes, typically they are not the cellar dweller, but they bring a high school gym in a non existent TV market to the table. I doubt any Dayton recruit gets excited at the prospect of playing them yearly.

2007–08 St. Bonaventure 8–22 2–14 14th
2008–09 St. Bonaventure 15–15 6–10 11th
2009–10 St. Bonaventure 15–16 7–9 8th
2010–11 St. Bonaventure 16-15 8-8 7th CBI First Round
2011–12 St. Bonaventure 20–11 10–6 4th NCAA Second Round
2012–13 St. Bonaventure 14–15 7–9 11th
2013–14 St. Bonaventure 18–15 6–10 9th
2014–15 St. Bonaventure 18–13 10–8 T–7th
2015–16 St. Bonaventure 22–9 14–4 T–1st NIT First Round
2016–17 St. Bonaventure 20–12 11–7 5th
St. Bonaventure: 166–143 (.537) 81–85 (.488)
Total: 248–233 (.516)
That's funny, what I see is a school that is cyclically in the post-season and consistently above .500 in the non-con thereby boosting the conf RPI. Bona is punching well above their weight class.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Their TV deal is WAY better than the A10. As far as UC not letting UD in, Mick Cronin was just complaining about not having a team close by. I know travel wise, UC and UD would benefit from having a school nearby. They are not in the same position as X. UC has wanted a close rival.
Agree. I think as long as adding non-football, additional members made sense for AAC members, UC would absolutely support the addition of Dayton.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
That's funny, what I see is a school that is cyclically in the post-season and consistently above .500 in the non-con thereby boosting the conf RPI. Bona is punching well above their weight class.
One NIT and one NCAA in 10 years and your excited? I refuse to count the CBI
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
That's funny, what I see is a school that is cyclically in the post-season and consistently above .500 in the non-con thereby boosting the conf RPI. Bona is punching well above their weight class.
I agree. SBU has not been the problem. Duquesne and Fordham probably are the 2 that have consistently stunk. But add in on any given year, another 2 or 3 teams really stink too. This past year it was SLU. I don't think anyone is advocating getting rid of them. Same with UMass.

We have trouble getting decent home and home's. It is worse for the lower half of the conference. We get in a good pre conference tourney every year. The lower half probably get in one every few years. Our home revenue allows us to buy games. The lower half can't do that. The expansion of the P5 conference season is going to make it worse. All of this is why the RPI formula needs reworking.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:52 AM
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Dayton Would NEVER

join a conference in which UC resides. Remember the Great Midwest experience? Know your history and lesson derived therefrom.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
That's funny, what I see is a school that is cyclically in the post-season and consistently above .500 in the non-con thereby boosting the conf RPI. Bona is punching well above their weight class.
Absolutely. Respect the job Mark Schmidt has done immensely. The A10 really lucked out when Boston College didn't hire Schmidt.

The A10 is fortunate to have some schools that have coaches who are better than maybe some of these programs "deserve" -- Schmidt, Martelli, McKillop, and now Dambrot. I think when you look at other basketball-driven leagues like the MVC or WCC vs the A10, it's the quality of coaches that have separated the A10 more than anything. It's easy to look at resources and amenities, but those really don't tell the story.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
Dayton would never join a conference in which UC resides. Remember the Great Midwest experience? Know your history and lesson derived therefrom.
Marquette and Xavier have not been real good to Dayton more recently than UC. Do you also think Dayton would turn an invite to the Big East down?
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
That's funny, what I see is a school that is cyclically in the post-season and consistently above .500 in the non-con thereby boosting the conf RPI. Bona is punching well above their weight class.
Thats funny, what I see is a team that each year plays a very weak OOC. Playing a weak OOC is why when they have a good year and tie for first in the A10 they get left out of the NCAA Tournament.

Last edited by m21eagle45; 04-11-2017 at 10:18 AM..
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
join a conference in which UC resides. Remember the Great Midwest experience? Know your history and lesson derived therefrom.
Is there anybody still working in the Athletic Department leadership that was here when we were in the Great Midwest? I do not think the current leaders would hold any ill will for that.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
All of this is why the RPI formula needs reworking.
There are a lot of different topics being discussed here, but it seems like the trend is toward using different calculations - BPI, KenPom, etc. So it could get replaced all together I think. But I know there are many, many more here more knowledgeable about RPI than I.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
join a conference in which UC resides. Remember the Great Midwest experience? Know your history and lesson derived therefrom.
UD's lack of success in the Great Midwest and abandonment, had significantly more to do with UD than with anyone else in that conference. Outside of a great fan base, UD was worse across all sports in that league than Fordham or LaSalle are in the A10. They left UD behind for the very same reasons that many on here talk about forming a new conference and leaving Fordham behind. Perhaps UD should be thankful that they made them "see the light" and propel UD towards being fairly successful across the board.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:33 AM
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The RPI should be replaced, but I oppose the use of any calculation that uses margin of victory when deciding who goes to the tournament. A win is a win.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
The RPI should be replaced, but I oppose the use of any calculation that uses margin of victory when deciding who goes to the tournament. A win is a win.
Whatever metric is used to evaluate teams for the NCAAT, there needs to be added emphasis on playing road games out of conference.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:48 AM
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Correct

Originally Posted by Medford View Post
UD's lack of success in the Great Midwest and abandonment, had significantly more to do with UD than with anyone else in that conference. Outside of a great fan base, UD was worse across all sports in that league than Fordham or LaSalle are in the A10. They left UD behind for the very same reasons that many on here talk about forming a new conference and leaving Fordham behind. Perhaps UD should be thankful that they made them "see the light" and propel UD towards being fairly successful across the board.
When UD was in the GMW it had no athletics "program"......just a failing men's BB team and a good FB team. That's what Ted Kissell faced.

Ted is responsible for developing and implementing the first athletics strategy in UD's history and the outstanding athletics program we have today. UD has its legacy ADs like Baujan and Frericks....but no one's accomplishments rival those of Ted Kissell.
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