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  #101  
Old 05-04-2017, 12:33 PM
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Just a general comment, I think group punishment is as effective as participation trophies.
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  #102  
Old 05-04-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
First, discipline matters should remain internal and not public
I agree, which is why I didn't share other details or any names.

To me the story was a plausible way to connect dots that didn't seem connectable before ... i.e. why in the world would Crosby leave when he's the only pg?

If what I shared offended anyone, I apologize. Rest assured, I'll lean towards keeping it to myself next time around.
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  #103  
Old 05-04-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CraSch View Post
In a way, I understand Crosby saying "enough is enough" if he was getting disciplined for something he didn't do. NOBODY likes that. However, if this is truly what happened, then I feel he blew a great chance at showing some leadership. Point guards should be leaders, IMHO. This was a chance to show leadership in accepting the punishment because he is part of the TEAM, but to also get on those guys that caused it to point out such conduct that causes punishments is unacceptable and he will do his best to help them avoid such conduct and to hold them accountable. However, if story is true, he may have just lost a lot of respect from his teammates. I can imagine some of the others, especially those that also were not part of the issue and thus "unfairly" punished, saying "why do I want to follow this guy? When the going got tough, he quit. Screw him, he's no leader, nor team player".

So if true, and he comes back, he may have to earn everyone's respect again, because, simply put, you do not quit on teammates and expect to easily come back from it. So in a way, I'm hoping this story is incorrect and he left for a reason that, if he returns, would seem more acceptable to his teammates. Just my 2 cents....
I agree. I believe if these are the facts regarding he wanting out and desire to comeback I'd like the team to have some input in the decision. More than likely AG will make the final decision. Ideally I'd leave it up to the captains, but I don't think the captains have been named yet for the returning team. True Team plus one...
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  #104  
Old 05-04-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
If Crosby does end up returning, all this will end up acting as a brilliant marketing campaign for Crosby.

Even the haters are rolling out the red carpet and welcoming him with open arms.
I feel like the reaction when he announced he was leaving was sort of meh and if he announces he is coming back, it will also be meh. The haters may acknowledge we need Crosby, but I doubt they would be truly excited about getting him back as you suggest. We're not talking about a pendulum swing like we had with the McKinley Wright release/defection.
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  #105  
Old 05-04-2017, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
I feel like the reaction when he announced he was leaving was sort of meh and if he announces he is coming back, it will also be meh. The haters may acknowledge we need Crosby, but I doubt they would be truly excited about getting him back as you suggest. We're not talking about a pendulum swing like we had with the McKinley Wright release/defection.
McKinley could have been a complete flop and a problem in the clubhouse, it is all speculation on that pendulum. Better the devil you know, and I have to say we have only seen underclassmen Crosby. We don't know what types of improvements he can make over the summer and with a new coaching regime.

If he makes a amends with AG, then bring him back. AG has a learning curve on how to treat the players as well. IIRC, Miller was having huge team issues, and then he changed his approach and we went from the bottom of the A10 to the NCAA.

I hope they fix it!
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  #106  
Old 05-04-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
I agree. I believe if these are the facts regarding he wanting out and desire to comeback I'd like the team to have some input in the decision. More than likely AG will make the final decision. Ideally I'd leave it up to the captains, but I don't think the captains have been named yet for the returning team. True Team plus one...
and if I went that route, if I left it up to the captains.... then I would make sure that none of the captains were guilty of missing classes...
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  #107  
Old 05-04-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CraSch View Post
In a way, I understand Crosby saying "enough is enough" if he was getting disciplined for something he didn't do. NOBODY likes that. However, if this is truly what happened, then I feel he blew a great chance at showing some leadership. Point guards should be leaders, IMHO. This was a chance to show leadership in accepting the punishment because he is part of the TEAM, but to also get on those guys that caused it to point out such conduct that causes punishments is unacceptable and he will do his best to help them avoid such conduct and to hold them accountable. However, if story is true, he may have just lost a lot of respect from his teammates. I can imagine some of the others, especially those that also were not part of the issue and thus "unfairly" punished, saying "why do I want to follow this guy? When the going got tough, he quit. Screw him, he's no leader, nor team player".

So if true, and he comes back, he may have to earn everyone's respect again, because, simply put, you do not quit on teammates and expect to easily come back from it. So in a way, I'm hoping this story is incorrect and he left for a reason that, if he returns, would seem more acceptable to his teammates. Just my 2 cents....
Actually, sometimes rebelling can be a form of leadership. Could be a case of him being the only one to speak up against being punished for something he wasn't at fault for was taken as speaking up for those others in the same boat.

Personally, I can see it. You had a coach of your choosing that didn't discipline this way and now through no fault of your own, you have a new coach that does and you resent it. Probably, knowing he was only PG on team, flexed his muscles and got shown that they don't consider him irreplaceable. Once he got called out on it, he felt he had to follow through on his threat of "not going to take it" or whatever it was. Not an uncommon occurrence in other similar situations like a new boss at work.

Now, if Anthony Grant had not made his discipline techniques such as this known upfront, he's partially at fault. If he hadn't, I think the proper thing to do would have been to call a team meeting and explain that after this, all will be punished for the sins of a few.

Obviously I don't know all of the circumstances, just saying that if it was anything like the scenario I layed out above, what Crosby did might be a little more understandable. He is still just a 20 year old young man and we all had less patience and probably more ego back at that age.
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  #108  
Old 05-04-2017, 03:36 PM
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This little diversion with Crosby does not change much of anything. Whether he comes back or not, he remains a back up point guard based on past performance. Does he have a leg up on those who AG might bring in? I would think so just based on his knowledge of the tendencies of the returning players + Kostas. For most coaches who would face a situation such as ours, John might help with the coaching transition, and the player's cohesion, if his head is in the right place.

I would want him, but wouldn't slit my wrists if he doesn't come back.
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  #109  
Old 05-04-2017, 03:53 PM
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I work with an Alabama alumni. His perception of Anthony Grant's head coaching tenure was that he had a tendency to have problems with players and he released at least one of them. I take this report with a grain of salt because this alumni is mostly a football rather than basketball fan. But the perception is what it is.
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  #110  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
This little diversion with Crosby does not change much of anything. Whether he comes back or not, he remains a back up point guard based on past performance. Does he have a leg up on those who AG might bring in? I would think so just based on his knowledge of the tendencies of the returning players + Kostas. For most coaches who would face a situation such as ours, John might help with the coaching transition, and the player's cohesion, if his head is in the right place.

I would want him, but wouldn't slit my wrists if he doesn't come back.
If he comes back and there is no other PG commit he won't be a backup regardless of past performance as in PG by default. Bran new clean slate is the best way for AG to approach and win over both the existing players and recruits with most other positions and PT. And there's very little knowledge JC will really have over anybody else coming in considering there are 4 seniors gone and with Mikesell being out possibly the entire year AND AG bringing in what would probably be an entirely new system..

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  #111  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:08 PM
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Every good basketball movie (Hoosiers, Coach Carter) has this plot line in it. Player butts heads with the new coach and walks out. Some driving force (it was the kid's mom in Coach Carter) brings him back to the team. All is good and the team has success beyond expectations.

Bring on the UD version of this and I will start the screenplay.

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  #112  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
I agree, which is why I didn't share other details or any names.

To me the story was a plausible way to connect dots that didn't seem connectable before ... i.e. why in the world would Crosby leave when he's the only pg?

If what I shared offended anyone, I apologize. Rest assured, I'll lean towards keeping it to myself next time around.
Certainly didn't offend me. I am much more offended by the people that indicate they know something and then don't share it.

This is a fan message board. It is exactly where I expect to find rumors, speculation and half true stories. That is why I come here, to get "insider" information that non-super fans don't care about or ever hear. Most fans are content to wait and see who is on the roster in November. The die-hards that frequent here know who our assistant coach followed on twitter this morning.
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  #113  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:11 PM
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Bottom line, he quit. Not interested. Next. Trust Anthony Grant.
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  #114  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CraSch View Post
In a way, I understand Crosby saying "enough is enough" if he was getting disciplined for something he didn't do. NOBODY likes that. However, if this is truly what happened, then I feel he blew a great chance at showing some leadership. Point guards should be leaders, IMHO. This was a chance to show leadership in accepting the punishment because he is part of the TEAM, but to also get on those guys that caused it to point out such conduct that causes punishments is unacceptable and he will do his best to help them avoid such conduct and to hold them accountable. However, if story is true, he may have just lost a lot of respect from his teammates. I can imagine some of the others, especially those that also were not part of the issue and thus "unfairly" punished, saying "why do I want to follow this guy? When the going got tough, he quit. Screw him, he's no leader, nor team player".

So if true, and he comes back, he may have to earn everyone's respect again, because, simply put, you do not quit on teammates and expect to easily come back from it. So in a way, I'm hoping this story is incorrect and he left for a reason that, if he returns, would seem more acceptable to his teammates. Just my 2 cents....

Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Actually, sometimes rebelling can be a form of leadership. Could be a case of him being the only one to speak up against being punished for something he wasn't at fault for was taken as speaking up for those others in the same boat.

Personally, I can see it. You had a coach of your choosing that didn't discipline this way and now through no fault of your own, you have a new coach that does and you resent it. Probably, knowing he was only PG on team, flexed his muscles and got shown that they don't consider him irreplaceable. Once he got called out on it, he felt he had to follow through on his threat of "not going to take it" or whatever it was. Not an uncommon occurrence in other similar situations like a new boss at work.

Now, if Anthony Grant had not made his discipline techniques such as this known upfront, he's partially at fault. If he hadn't, I think the proper thing to do would have been to call a team meeting and explain that after this, all will be punished for the sins of a few.

Obviously I don't know all of the circumstances, just saying that if it was anything like the scenario I layed out above, what Crosby did might be a little more understandable. He is still just a 20 year old young man and we all had less patience and probably more ego back at that age.
CraSch obviously knows what leadership means. I really disagree with Smitty. While Smitty lays out a possible scenario that would tick off JC, I have to point out that we're not talking about a gang induction ceremony here. AG wasn't handing each person a gun and telling them to shoot a crack head so JC "did the right thing."

They . . . was . . . run-NING. . . as Forest Gump would say. They are athletes, and they were running. Heck if anything it was good for them. That's leadership by JC to rebel?? No way.

And when JC turns the ball over 3 times in a row in practice, his teammates are going to be run-NING. Even if AG didn't warn him ahead of time that would be the punishment.

Like the punishment or hate the punishment, it's irrelevant. It sucked. You're a team. And you go through sucky punishments together. And you never make that (completely unacceptable) mistake again to avoid that (completely predictable) sucky thing again.

This is really poor leadership. He lost his head, take him back, but wow that's poor.
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  #115  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by do54 View Post
Bottom line, he quit. Not interested. Next. Trust Anthony Grant.
When you say "Trust Anthony Grant" - are you OK with Crosby coming back as long as AG is OK with it? If so, then your first statement is a bit bold and out of place. If not, then your last statement isn't sincere.
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  #116  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckleyma View Post
I work with an Alabama alumni. His perception of Anthony Grant's head coaching tenure was that he had a tendency to have problems with players and he released at least one of them. I take this report with a grain of salt because this alumni is mostly a football rather than basketball fan. But the perception is what it is.
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Sounds to me that maybe Anthony Grant disciplined his players as appropriate when they screwed up. Some kids don't like that.

Now, if you play football at Alabama, you can just go ahead and do whatever you want. Saban will talk the police out of getting involved. If you do something really terrible, maybe you'll have to sit out a series against a Division 2 cupcake. But no big deal really.
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  #117  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:28 PM
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Why would we bend over backwards and let a guy back on the team that quit? I'm with do54. It's not like he's going to turn in to a stud in the next 2 years. On to the next one.
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  #118  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
If he comes back and there is no other PG commit he won't be a backup regardless of past performance as in PG by default.
Dude, there will be a PG commit. No joke we've offered three guys at PG for 2017 who live within a 60 mile radius of Memphis. Perhaps, we'll have to start looking in and around Nashville too, but one way or another, we'll get it done.
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  #119  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfan4life View Post
Why would we bend over backwards and let a guy back on the team that quit? I'm with do54. It's not like he's going to turn in to a stud in the next 2 years. On to the next one.
Wouldn't fault Grant if he didn't want him back. Wouldn't fault him if he did. But there's no bending over backwards here. We have scholarships available. He's a PG. We have no PGs. Bending over backwards would be making room for a guy when we have no room.
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  #120  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
No joke we've offered three guys at PG for 2017 who live within a 60 mile radius of Memphis.
That means they are only a jump seat ride, on the next FedEx, away.
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  #121  
Old 05-04-2017, 04:44 PM
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Any truth to the rumor that AG made UDScott run twice as much as Crosby?
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  #122  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Actually, sometimes rebelling can be a form of leadership. Could be a case of him being the only one to speak up against being punished for something he wasn't at fault for was taken as speaking up for those others in the same boat.

Personally, I can see it. You had a coach of your choosing that didn't discipline this way and now through no fault of your own, you have a new coach that does and you resent it. Probably, knowing he was only PG on team, flexed his muscles and got shown that they don't consider him irreplaceable. Once he got called out on it, he felt he had to follow through on his threat of "not going to take it" or whatever it was. Not an uncommon occurrence in other similar situations like a new boss at work.

Now, if Anthony Grant had not made his discipline techniques such as this known upfront, he's partially at fault. If he hadn't, I think the proper thing to do would have been to call a team meeting and explain that after this, all will be punished for the sins of a few.

Obviously I don't know all of the circumstances, just saying that if it was anything like the scenario I layed out above, what Crosby did might be a little more understandable. He is still just a 20 year old young man and we all had less patience and probably more ego back at that age.
This is exactly what education has become today. If you don't like something just quit. And then hope that they beg you back. And if they don't beg them back but spin it that they really wanted me back.
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  #123  
Old 05-04-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LIBob View Post
Any truth to the rumor that AG made UDScott run twice as much as Crosby?
It would explain a lot of current regime comments but not the many before AG so I guess he answer is no.
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Old 05-04-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
When you say "Trust Anthony Grant" - are you OK with Crosby coming back as long as AG is OK with it? If so, then your first statement is a bit bold and out of place. If not, then your last statement isn't sincere.
Trust that Anthony Grant is going to bring in a couple of PG options for this fall. I highly doubt that if the story is as published, he would accept him back.
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
I think I'll self identify as a PG today, maybe an offensive tackle tomorrow, perhaps experiment with being a horse Saturday. That's cool these days, right?
can you pitch left handed?
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  #126  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfan4life View Post
Why would we bend over backwards and let a guy back on the team that quit? I'm with do54. It's not like he's going to turn in to a stud in the next 2 years. On to the next one.
No guarantee any of them interested in UD turn into studs. Right now they're either dealing with undergrad transfers, grad.transfers, jucos, or HS undervalued late bloomers so chances are none of them that would come to UD would fit that mold or even become better players than a 3rd year returning player.

If AG wants or accepts him back then I'm fine with that and JC ,imo,will be a much improved player.

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  #127  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
If he comes back and there is no other PG commit he won't be a backup regardless of past performance as in PG by default. .
That's just plain crazy. We will not start the season with the only one point guard being a long-shot-to-return John Crosby. Period. End of sentence.
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  #128  
Old 05-04-2017, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
That's just plain crazy. We will not start the season with the only one point guard being a long-shot-to-return John Crosby. Period. End of sentence.
I don't think many others on this board share your faith. Do you recall a season in recent, or distant, history in which we had not one single PG in May? This upcoming season will be my 13th as an avid fan. I don't recall one.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:16 PM
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It sounds like both handled it poorly. I hope calmer heads prevail and AG and JC can work it out.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
It sounds like both handled it poorly. I hope calmer heads prevail and AG and JC can work it out.
Both handled it poorly? How so? JC is the 1 that quit on his team. Is AG supposed to beg him to stay?
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  #131  
Old 05-04-2017, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
I don't think many others on this board share your faith. Do you recall a season in recent, or distant, history in which we had not one single PG in May? This upcoming season will be my 13th as an avid fan. I don't recall one.
Really? Said it before but we literally just offered three different 2017 PGs in the greater Memphis metro area. We will sign a guy. It's just a question of who and when.
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  #132  
Old 05-04-2017, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Both handled it poorly? How so? JC is the 1 that quit on his team. Is AG supposed to beg him to stay?
My opinion only, but I have always,lost respect for those in authority, teacher, coach, whatever, who punish all for the sins of a few. I've always felt they were lazy. Being one who goes by the book, when I've been punished for others mistakes, I've always blamed the one who unjustly punished me.
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  #133  
Old 05-04-2017, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
CraSch obviously knows what leadership means. I really disagree with Smitty. While Smitty lays out a possible scenario that would tick off JC, I have to point out that we're not talking about a gang induction ceremony here. AG wasn't handing each person a gun and telling them to shoot a crack head so JC "did the right thing."

They . . . was . . . run-NING. . . as Forest Gump would say. They are athletes, and they were running. Heck if anything it was good for them. That's leadership by JC to rebel?? No way.

And when JC turns the ball over 3 times in a row in practice, his teammates are going to be run-NING. Even if AG didn't warn him ahead of time that would be the punishment.

Like the punishment or hate the punishment, it's irrelevant. It sucked. You're a team. And you go through sucky punishments together. And you never make that (completely unacceptable) mistake again to avoid that (completely predictable) sucky thing again.

This is really poor leadership. He lost his head, take him back, but wow that's poor.
I don't know why I bother. But here goes. I never once said that Crosby did the right thing. I was referring to how someone said he loses the respect of the players. My point was that might not be the case as players who were in the same boat as he was might actually appreciate someone rebelling.

I can understand that when a team under performs due to lack of effort or discipline or some other reason the coach feels stems from mental error that the whole team feels the wrath afterward no matter if they played or were just spectators. But to punish the whole team for the non-basketball sins of a few is a terrible concept IMO. Kind of the opposite end of the spectrum that everybody gets a trophy that was on display this week with the Flyers MVP awards. And yes, I can relate to having the new boss coming in and turning everything upside down and resenting it.

But again, nowhere did I say that Crosby handled things the right way. I just said that he doesn't necessarily lose the respect of his teammates who I'm sure probably feel the same way about this new way of deciding who gets punished as Crosby and yes, I do.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by do54 View Post
Bottom line, he quit. Not interested. Next. Trust Anthony Grant.
Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
When you say "Trust Anthony Grant" - are you OK with Crosby coming back as long as AG is OK with it? If so, then your first statement is a bit bold and out of place. If not, then your last statement isn't sincere.

Hey - at least he didn't turn up in Texas claiming he had been kidnapped

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  #135  
Old 05-04-2017, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
My opinion only, but I have always,lost respect for those in authority, teacher, coach, whatever, who punish all for the sins of a few. I've always felt they were lazy. Being one who goes by the book, when I've been punished for others mistakes, I've always blamed the one who unjustly punished me.
It's called team building, the military use it because if you can't rely on your teammates you might end up dead.

Blame the screw up not the coach.
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  #136  
Old 05-04-2017, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
I don't think many others on this board share your faith. Do you recall a season in recent, or distant, history in which we had not one single PG in May? This upcoming season will be my 13th as an avid fan. I don't recall one.
Not what you hope for, but absolutely no reason to sweat it. This is my 65th season as an avid fan, and I can't remember sweating about filling the roster in May. We always have pg's to start the season.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Glen Clark View Post
Hey - at least he didn't turn up in Texas claiming he had been kidnapped
It happens. There I was, making a PB&J. Next thing I knew...
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  #138  
Old 05-05-2017, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
My opinion only, but I have always,lost respect for those in authority, teacher, coach, whatever, who punish all for the sins of a few. I've always felt they were lazy. Being one who goes by the book, when I've been punished for others mistakes, I've always blamed the one who unjustly punished me.
I can agree in some cases, but I disagree in other cases. I don't think all authority figures enacting mass punishment should be lumped together.

in my experience, often when a teacher punishes an entire class for something only a few were involved in, the teacher actually has no idea who was involved. The idea of punishing everyone is in hopes that one of the "innocents" speaks up, ratting out those who did wrong. If no one speaks up, all get punished. But often no one speaks up because of the future consequences of issues with their fellow classmates in the future. But there is no common goal for the students.....Sally doesn't care if Mark fails, it doesn't effect Sally, she can still get an A without him.

However, in the case of a sports team, all are on the team working towards a common goal, to be the best team they can be and win as many games as possible. So off court actions, like on court actions, become a matter of accountability. If the scenario described is true, AG knows exactly who the problem children were, but he's punishing all because they are all part of one unit working towards a common goal and they need to be accountable to each other. The coach is not looking for guys to quit, he's looking for the innocent ones to take the punishment and then step up to the guilty ones and say hey, stop the shenanigans, shape up, do your part both on and off the court and do what is best for the team.

So two different scenarios, two different reasons behind them. I don't like the idea of a teacher punishing all because of a few, but doing this has at times proved effective in learning the identities of the guilty. However, I'm completely in favor of the coach punishing all, because the individuals are part of a larger unit working towards that common goal, and thus they are one. So personally I'm good with a coach having rules that if one fails all must share in the punishment.....they are all part of one unit.
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  #139  
Old 05-05-2017, 01:59 AM
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Crosby is still incompetent. Would not start for any top 200 program.
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  #140  
Old 05-05-2017, 09:26 AM
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Regardless of whether or not you agree with mass punishment, a true leader or team player would not just storm off and walk out and quit (if that is indeed what happened). If that person has any real leadership ability they would talk with the coach to let him know his concerns over this type of punishment and hope to work toward some type of resolution/compromise. If I quit a job every time a boss did something in my company that I didn't like, I'd constantly be looking for a new job.
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  #141  
Old 05-05-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
Crosby is still incompetent. Would not start for any top 200 program.
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He's been promoted? Before he wasn't even capable of playing D1.
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  #142  
Old 05-05-2017, 09:45 AM
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Or maybe he realized he's had no interest from any other schools near or above daytons level?
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:58 AM
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Despite what the previous few posts say, I think most of us see lots of potential in JC. I feel like the change of coach, not playing in SS shadow, and another year of experience this would be your break out year.

If AG welcomes him back, I welcome JC back, as he believe he could be a major asset for the Flyers the next couple of years, even with the signing of another point
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  #144  
Old 05-05-2017, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Despite what the previous few posts say, I think most of us see lots of potential in JC. I feel like the change of coach, not playing in SS shadow, and another year of experience this would be your break out year.

If AG welcomes him back, I welcome JC back, as he believe he could be a major asset for the Flyers the next couple of years, even with the signing of another point
I agree 100%. Playing behind SS, he was probably trying to do too much in order to get more minutes and forced the issue. Now that it could be his team, I would expect him to play much more within himself now that he is running the show and isn't trying to prove himself every time he steps on the floor. I saw a lot more from JC than I saw from Warren through 2 years. London went on to be a solid PG his final 2 years. If AG allows JC to return, I would hope to see a lot of improvement.

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Old 05-05-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
My opinion only, but I have always,lost respect for those in authority, teacher, coach, whatever, who punish all for the sins of a few. I've always felt they were lazy. Being one who goes by the book, when I've been punished for others mistakes, I've always blamed the one who unjustly punished me.
It's called being a team and holding others accountable.

Military, police academy, sports....it's amazing how other's get into compliance when they are pressured by the responsible ones. It's also amazing how peers take care of business when they get punished for the acts of others.

It's as simple as when the entire team has 27 seconds to run a suicide...and if one doesn't make it...everyone hits it again. That's what teams do. Start as a team end as a team, hold each other accountable, and reach the end goal as one.
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  #146  
Old 05-05-2017, 10:57 AM
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:25 PM
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It makes me cringe with this fear: seeing Mr. Crosby at the line shooting the one and one with the game on the line! Do we have to remove our starting point guard for the last 2 minutes to try to avert a comeback? Please sign guards who can hit free throws.
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Old 05-05-2017, 07:27 PM
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I sincerely hope it is not what is being speculated.

If Crosby left because he was mad at the team discipline being administered, the team is better off without him.

Kind of begs the question WTF was going on with the team under Archie's watch if a bunch of players thought it would be ok to skip en masse. Also questions the value of the True Team motto if Crosby would so easily defect.
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Old 05-05-2017, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
I sincerely hope it is not what is being speculated.

If Crosby left because he was mad at the team discipline being administered, the team is better off without him.

Kind of begs the question WTF was going on with the team under Archie's watch if a bunch of players thought it would be ok to skip en masse. Also questions the value of the True Team motto if Crosby would so easily defect.
WTF was going on under Archie's watch? Flyers were going to 4 straight NCAA tournaments and not one player showed anger or disrespect toward him. Man, those were terrible times, so glad to be starting over.

It's starting already, Anthony Grant is being lifted to a status above Archie's when it's obviously not yet earned.

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Old 05-05-2017, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
WTF was going on under Archie's watch? Flyers were going to 4 straight NCAA tournaments and not one player showed anger or disrespect toward him. Man, those were terrible times, so glad to be starting over.

It's starting already, Anthony Grant is being lifted to a status above Archie's when it's obviously not yet earned.
It's completely irrational
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
WTF was going on under Archie's watch? Flyers were going to 4 straight NCAA tournaments and not one player showed anger or disrespect toward him. Man, those were terrible times, so glad to be starting over.

It's starting already, Anthony Grant is being lifted to a status above Archie's when it's obviously not yet earned.
My guess is that the Dayton Archie Miller branch of the CIA didn't allow any stories or rumors from the program to get out.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
It's completely irrational
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Oh, you ain't seen nothing yet. If the men's basketball success doesn't come close to Archie's the excuses will be flying around here. He's a UD alumini who played under Donoher. He's the golden boy who can do no wrong. This was one of things I was worried about. He can set us back to the BG days or worse, and he's going to get free passes over and over and over again from most of the posters here and many of the alumni and boosters.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Oh, you ain't seen nothing yet. If the men's basketball success doesn't come close to Archie's the excuses will be flying around here. He's a UD alumini who played under Donoher. He's the golden boy who can do no wrong. This was one of things I was worried about. He can set us back to the BG days or worse, and he's going to get free passes over and over and over again from most of the posters here and many of the alumni and boosters.
This is exactly what scared me about hiring CAG. It's going to be hard to fire him which is not a good thing. I hope he succeeds but if he doesn't it worries me if the powers that be have the balls to move on to another coach.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:55 PM
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UD fired a hall of fame coach, they will not be afraid to fire Grant if needed. Keep up the positive attitudes, guys. Same sentiment said over and over. God, get more original.
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Oh, you ain't seen nothing yet. If the men's basketball success doesn't come close to Archie's the excuses will be flying around here. He's a UD alumini who played under Donoher. He's the golden boy who can do no wrong. This was one of things I was worried about. He can set us back to the BG days or worse, and he's going to get free passes over and over and over again from most of the posters here and many of the alumni and boosters.
Don't worry, rollo has publicly assured me on here that if things start heading south, then he will speak up.

And I think we all know that rollo is not afraid to speak his mind on here! Lol.
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
UD fired a hall of fame coach, they will not be afraid to fire Grant if needed. Keep up the positive attitudes, guys. Same sentiment said over and over. God, get more original.
No one who made that decision is still there. But I do otherwise agree. One thing UD has shown recently is that they are not afraid to start over. They haven't had to fire a basketball coach recently, but they have opted to clean house every time as opposed to moving forward with a holdover. I think that says something.
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
UD fired a hall of fame coach, they will not be afraid to fire Grant if needed. Keep up the positive attitudes, guys. Same sentiment said over and over. God, get more original.
And because of the backlash that was received back then, they will be much more reluctant to ever fire a coach that has the alumni tag ever again. These aren't the same people from 27 years ago, but they learn from history.

There was obvious reasons to go in a different direction back then, wins of 21 then 19 then 17 then 13 then 13 then 12 should be easy to fire someone but it wasn't. Well, the bar is much higher now. Any regression over a 4 year period from what AM did should't be tolerated, but it will be.
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
No one who made that decision is still there. But I do otherwise agree. One thing UD has shown recently is that they are not afraid to start over. They haven't had to fire a basketball coach recently, but they have opted to clean house every time as opposed to moving forward with a holdover. I think that says something.
Yes, because starting over means success and moving forward means failure
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
WTF was going on under Archie's watch? Flyers were going to 4 straight NCAA tournaments and not one player showed anger or disrespect toward him. Man, those were terrible times, so glad to be starting over.

It's starting already, Anthony Grant is being lifted to a status above Archie's when it's obviously not yet earned.
Not deifying Grant by any stretch of the imagination, only pointing out that something seems amiss given the purported backstory and reaction Crosby had. I think given the issues with Kavanaugh, Derrenbecker, and Dumb & Dumber, it's a fair question.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Not deifying Grant by any stretch of the imagination, only pointing out that something seems amiss given the purported backstory and reaction Crosby had. I think given the issues with Kavanaugh, Derrenbecker, and Dumb & Dumber, it's a fair question.
Darenbecker? Really? What did he do that you would suspect that Archie needs to be held accountable for?

So you believe people can be controlled and that accountability for something like burglarizing dorm rooms should be spread beyond the criminals themselves? So now it's the coach's fault that 2 players decided to go on a little crime spree?

This is one of the main problems in the world today, crime and bad behavior by an individual is not getting blamed fully on the individual. The fact you want to blame it on a coach who receives these youngsters at 18 years old is laughable. You do know they had parents who were supposed to be in charge of instilling moral and ethical values within them prior to becoming a legal adult don't you? Not saying you should blame the parents, but geez, if you are going to hold others accountable, it would be them over the coach.

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Old 05-06-2017, 12:44 AM
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Matt Derenbecker was a troubled young man (God Rest His Soul). He had some mental issues that in no way be pinned on anyone
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Oh, you ain't seen nothing yet. If the men's basketball success doesn't come close to Archie's the excuses will be flying around here. He's a UD alumini who played under Donoher. He's the golden boy who can do no wrong. This was one of things I was worried about. He can set us back to the BG days or worse, and he's going to get free passes over and over and over again from most of the posters here and many of the alumni and boosters.
I have a feeling that a lot of vitrol is going to come Archie's way. Any adversity and it's gonna get be "his" fault we're in this position.
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:47 AM
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You hit the nail squarely on the head, Smitty.
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:07 AM
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I'm 60\40 in favor of moving on without Crosby. Don't think he has what it takes. Speaking of integrity and skills. I fault Archie for recruiting him. They don't all work out. Sailing away..
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:36 AM
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Coaches know that the day they are hired that they can and will be fired one day. The message boards seem to take no time discussing those possibilities.

UD is slower to fire than most institutions. If you look at the data, the institutions that fire frequently often remain mired with poor results. Lack of continuity hurts programs. We will probably see the bumps and bruises from the change this season.
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I have a feeling that a lot of vitrol is going to come Archie's way. Any adversity and it's gonna get be "his" fault we're in this position.
Good to see we are worried about Archie and his legacy but not the ridiculous discussion about whether or not the administration will be able to pull the trigger on firing the new coach who has yet to coach a single game. While it is not Archie's "fault" we are in this position, it is certainly a direct result of the decision he made (and was entitled to make). One thing I know with absolute certainty is that the roster situation is not the fault of, nor is it a result of anything AG has done. If there are roster issues next year or the year after, that is a different story, but c'mon. AG basically sat down at a poker table to play the hand Archie folded. Relax and show some patience.
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:50 AM
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Rather than be negative, and start worrying about how Coach Grant can be fired, I prefer to be positive and hope he is wildly successful.
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:04 AM
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King Rollo appreciates and supports anyone who will work hard, accept responsibility and take advantage of opportunity.

Crosby is 0-for-3.

Which means I royally don't want him back.

So let it be written.

So let it be done.

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Old 05-06-2017, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
Good to see we are worried about Archie and his legacy but not the ridiculous discussion about whether or not the administration will be able to pull the trigger on firing the new coach who has yet to coach a single game. While it is not Archie's "fault" we are in this position, it is certainly a direct result of the decision he made (and was entitled to make). One thing I know with absolute certainty is that the roster situation is not the fault of, nor is it a result of anything AG has done. If there are roster issues next year or the year after, that is a different story, but c'mon. AG basically sat down at a poker table to play the hand Archie folded. Relax and show some patience.
This is solid. He's just projecting what seems likely to happen when certain scenarios play out. Because it is a message board where such banter is thought-provoking. Some say it's to stir the pot. Others like to hear all sides of the story without fear of the cringing effect. It's not to say I'm not relaxed. I admit I get more impatient by the day regarding the black hole that is the pg position though. Not time-based criticism but resource-based. A lot of good pg's have come off the board while we have a more glaring need at pg than 90% of the teams that have recently signed them. Impatient in that regard, yes.
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Darenbecker? Really? What did he do that you would suspect that Archie needs to be held accountable for?
There were some character flaws with a handful of early AM recruits....and some BG holdovers. You certainly can put the behavior of the players on the players. You also have to hold a head coach responsible if there is a pattern of poor behavior. I am not getting into specifics, as those have been discussed at length in other threads, but it appears that AG plans on bringing in and being loyal to high character kids that buy in to what he is selling. You don't like it? Here's the door.

UD won't put up with anything else, as the bad press of years past isn't something they want to deal with again.
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  #171  
Old 05-06-2017, 09:39 AM
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It was established early on which traits Archie prioritised in his players. Academics and good behavior weren't way up there. One thing to point out though is that as tough as Archie's teams were, I never saw a player once initiate a fight. That points to his good character, IMO.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
Good to see we are worried about Archie and his legacy but not the ridiculous discussion about whether or not the administration will be able to pull the trigger on firing the new coach who has yet to coach a single game. While it is not Archie's "fault" we are in this position, it is certainly a direct result of the decision he made (and was entitled to make). One thing I know with absolute certainty is that the roster situation is not the fault of, nor is it a result of anything AG has done. If there are roster issues next year or the year after, that is a different story, but c'mon. AG basically sat down at a poker table to play the hand Archie folded. Relax and show some patience.
What we're seeing in some of these threads is just a reflection of society today. Patience is a virtue that has gone by the wayside. Those who are not showing any resemblance of patience with Coach Grant are probably the same people who drive 90 mph on the interstate, weave in and out of traffic, all the while with their smartphone in one hand. In today's society, it's all about what have you done for me today. Thankfully, with AG and others at UD, those are not the type of people leading Flyer basketball.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
One thing to point out though is that as tough as Archie's teams were, I never saw a player once initiate a fight. That points to his good character, IMO.
Players are a reflection of their coach. I don't think AM ever got called for a technical while at UD. I've thrown as much criticism at AM over the way that he left as much as anyone, but he was always a professional on the court and his players demonstrated that same professionalism.

Just take a look at xavier. Their coach regularly acts like an idiot on the court and his players do as well.
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  #174  
Old 05-06-2017, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
I don't think many others on this board share your faith. Do you recall a season in recent, or distant, history in which we had not one single PG in May? This upcoming season will be my 13th as an avid fan. I don't recall one.
I think you are on an island with a scant few of your friends pal.
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:58 PM
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We have to be the only fan base in the country that is worried about the fireability of our HC one month and zero games into his tenure...wow.

1. I was nervous about the potential gap with the HC change and losing recruits.
2. AG has kept 3/5 recruits, has recruited a PG in the first month
3. we losta current pg, which is a position we are hurting at, and we need another pg, whether JC returns or we get someone new.
4. still have 2open 'ships to fill that hols.
5. getting much more comfortable now!
6. I fully expect to go to the NCAA tournament this eason. We should expect to every season. that is the type of program we should have. I believe AG feels the same.
7. when is November?
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  #176  
Old 05-06-2017, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AC91 View Post
We have to be the only fan base in the country that is worried about the fireability of our HC one month and zero games into his tenure...wow.
Not the fan base - just one or two posters who didn't like the hire.
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  #177  
Old 05-06-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JimBo View Post
Players are a reflection of their coach. I don't think AM ever got called for a technical while at UD. I've thrown as much criticism at AM over the way that he left as much as anyone, but he was always a professional on the court and his players demonstrated that same professionalism.

Just take a look at xavier. Their coach regularly acts like an idiot on the court and his players do as well.
Archie did have technical fouls called on him. Not many though. I can only recall 1 or 2 at most.
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  #178  
Old 05-06-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
Archie did have technical fouls called on him. Not many though. I can only recall 1 or 2 at most.
Times where I wish he had a few more!!! I know if that was me on the sideline I would have been watching on TV in the locker room.
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  #179  
Old 05-06-2017, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
I think you are on an island with a scant few of your friends pal.
Hey SDF, what's the point in unlocking a thread to ask a poster a (rhetorical) question when you lock the thread right back up?? Seen you do it twice now..Something a dictator would do iyam. I'm not representing UDScott at all but if you're going to lock it then leave it locked. I thought of it as an aberration the first time but since you've repeateated it I thought I'd mention how unbecoming it is of you to regulate threads.
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  #180  
Old 05-06-2017, 03:04 PM
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One thing that can never be made right is the loss of Steve. Flyers had to play without him and will continue to play without him.
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  #181  
Old 05-06-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Hey SDF, what's the point in unlocking a thread to ask a poster a (rhetorical) question when you lock the thread right back up?? Seen you do it twice now..Something a dictator would do iyam. I'm not representing UDScott at all but if you're going to lock it then leave it locked. I thought of it as an aberration the first time but since you've repeateated it I thought I'd mention how unbecoming it is of you to regulate threads.
Sorry guys. I didn't unlock it and didn't lock it back up. Never have and never will. But I'll buy the guy who did a beer. You have not seen me do it twice. You are hallucinating.

Glad the message got to the intended though.
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  #182  
Old 05-06-2017, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Darenbecker? Really? What did he do that you would suspect that Archie needs to be held accountable for?

So you believe people can be controlled and that accountability for something like burglarizing dorm rooms should be spread beyond the criminals themselves? So now it's the coach's fault that 2 players decided to go on a little crime spree?

This is one of the main problems in the world today, crime and bad behavior by an individual is not getting blamed fully on the individual. The fact you want to blame it on a coach who receives these youngsters at 18 years old is laughable. You do know they had parents who were supposed to be in charge of instilling moral and ethical values within them prior to becoming a legal adult don't you? Not saying you should blame the parents, but geez, if you are going to hold others accountable, it would be them over the coach.
Please don't put words in my mouth.

Each of said individuals were responsible for their actions. The coach is responsible for the overall character of the team as he is the one who pulls the trigger on who gets and continues to wear a Dayton uni. The examples I cited had issues beyond a single transgression and though talented, could have poisoned the team through their actions. That was again a decision Archie decided to handle his way. Obviously it worked out pretty well from a fan standpoint. We don't know whether or not a permissive attitude existed toward off court issues, though.

Was ditching class accepted under Archie? I don't know, but certainly hope not. It did apparently happen after Grant took over & if the reports are accurate, Crosby didn't like the repercussions and decided to quit. As others have stated, the discipline meted out is standard in team building environments. If the chain of events described is true, it reflects very poorly on Crosby, but also on the True Team concept instilled by Archie.

As far as giving Grant a pass because he's an alum, I will evaluate him the same as I did Archie, or BG, or any coach we've had. Do he and his players represent the University well and does he deliver a successful on court product? Yes to both and I'm happy. No, next up...
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  #183  
Old 05-07-2017, 02:43 PM
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At this point do we know that Crosby has requested to come back? Do we know that AG would take him back?
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  #184  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:37 PM
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noticed crosby's twitter had dayton back on it and he's back in a uniform in his pic.
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  #185  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jerseyflyer09 View Post
noticed crosby's twitter had dayton back on it and he's back in a uniform in his pic.
If he is indeed back, I think that is good news. I really believe that he will be a decent PG going forward. He has the potential, he just needs to put it together.
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  #186  
Old 05-08-2017, 06:21 PM
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How does Crow taste?
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I don't know why I bother. But here goes. I never once said that Crosby did the right thing.
"Actually, sometimes rebelling can be a form of leadership. Could be a case of him being the only one to speak up against being punished for something he wasn't at fault for was taken as speaking up for those others in the same boat." Sounds quite noble of him to hear you tell it.
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:54 PM
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Didn't UD grant him his release? How does that work if he comes back? Honestly, I'm not sure I want(ed) him back but I'm not involved with the decision making process and no one randomly phone polled me on my opinion.
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  #189  
Old 05-08-2017, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
"Actually, sometimes rebelling can be a form of leadership. Could be a case of him being the only one to speak up against being punished for something he wasn't at fault for was taken as speaking up for those others in the same boat." Sounds quite noble of him to hear you tell it.
Seriously? You don't get it? Or is it that you just like to twist things around and debate me? Look, if one player admired him for what he did than that player can look at him as leading the way, hence a leader. Two people within a group can have two totally polar opposite ways and consider the other's selfish, immature, detrimental etc. There can be a divide within the group. Hence two leaders of two different factions.

Oh, here, let me put it this way, both Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant were leaders but not everybody's leader.
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer2 View Post
How does Crow taste?

Like chicken, just a little more gamey.
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  #191  
Old 05-09-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Seriously? You don't get it? Or is it that you just like to twist things around and debate me? Look, if one player admired him for what he did than that player can look at him as leading the way, hence a leader. Two people within a group can have two totally polar opposite ways and consider the other's selfish, immature, detrimental etc. There can be a divide within the group. Hence two leaders of two different factions.
.
Sorta like a message board, with 350 ish leaders?
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  #192  
Old 05-09-2017, 10:30 AM
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If Crosby wants to come back as a walk-on, I'll be happy to take him back.

Regardless of who he is as a peron, his motives, character, etc....He has not shown the ability to play the PG position at the high level we have come to expect here at UD. Because of that, I don't think his play has warranted a D1 scholarship at UD.
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  #193  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:30 PM
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I am undecided about whether he should be back, but I do agree kids make mistakes and should sometimes get a second chance. I do think Crosby will help, just not see him as a game changer. I can tell you though, that he is currently not listed on the roster for next season on UD website.
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  #194  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:34 PM
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Jeff Borzello‏Verified account @jeffborzello 1m1 minute ago
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Dayton announces that John Crosby is returning to school. Had asked for his release last month.
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  #195  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:37 PM
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Crosby is staying. Check his twitter
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:41 PM
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Here's the DDN report: http://www.daytondailynews.com/sport...GN6tiGR7SmPRL/
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:44 PM
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No surprise as it was known about a week ago.

Welcome back John! You showed us the latter part of last year that you can play at a high level.
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ruechalgrin (05-09-2017)
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Jeff Borzello‏Verified account @jeffborzello 1m1 minute ago
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Dayton announces that John Crosby is returning to school. Had asked for his release last month.
Glad he's staying. At least we now have 2 PGs with one open scholarship that can be used or saved.

Now things get interesting. If Crutcher takes over as starting PG, can Crosby come to terms with the fact that it's because he deserves it by his play or will thoughts of AG being vengeful creep into his mind.
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NorthwestFlyer (05-09-2017)
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Glad he's staying. At least we now have 2 PGs with one open scholarship that can be used or saved.

Now things get interesting. If Crutcher takes over as starting PG, can Crosby come to terms with the fact that it's because he deserves it by his play or will thoughts of AG being vengeful creep into his mind.

Anthony Grant made the decision to bring him back. I'm sure much thought went into it.

Nobody on this board knows the true story of why he asked for his release
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:03 PM
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I'm glad Crosby and AG worked it out. Hopefully nothing more than a good growth experience for the young man. Having two PGs on the roster is a relief and gives a fighting chance and I would put money that Crosby will be our starting PG next year. Don't know if it will end that way, but it will start that way.
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