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  #1  
Old 04-23-2017, 06:18 PM
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Almost day 30 of AG, and all we have done is lost top 3 recruits

Facts don't lie, he is 0-3 with our top 3 recruits, that's it in 30 days, horrible choice for head coach and people on here love it unreal
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:23 PM
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At least we have assistants now
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:28 PM
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First 30 vs.100 days. All of this media/poll stuff has me so confused unless I'm not.
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:36 PM
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Which three? By my count he is 2 for 4 with no word either way on Svodoba.
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:42 PM
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The handwringing on this board is beyond amusing. Chicken Little is spawning.
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
Which three? By my count he is 2 for 4 with no word either way on Svodoba.
Don't let facts get in the way of a rant......
Maybe wait until he gets a recruit or two...maybe even coached a game?
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:51 PM
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Svodoba isn't happening
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Facts don't lie, he is 0-3 with our top 3 recruits, that's it in 30 days, horrible choice for head coach and people on here love it unreal
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And who would you have wanted for a head coach? I LOVE this choice. He's here to make UD better. Not here to prep his resume for a "better job"...
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Svodoba isn't happening
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Not sure why AM went after him- of course he's welcome...
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Not sure why AM went after him- of course he's welcome...
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He could be good, who knows but doesn't sound like anything is happening on that front
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:03 PM
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I understand -- and feel -- the angst. But a bit of a stretch to judge AG at this point. First, it's a challenge for many new coaches to retain the incoming players they didn't recruit. Second, we have no idea who he has connected with as potential transfers, JUCOs or incoming freshman. But fret away.
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:05 PM
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There is actually another week before 30 days, but who is counting. And he hasn't lost our "top 3" recruits.
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  #13  
Old 04-23-2017, 07:07 PM
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To be fair the lack of smoke coming from the transfer front is cause for concern
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:38 PM
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We all want to feel like things are getting settled and next year won't be a down year, but unless someone is an insider who knows things, all we can do is wait. There will be plenty of time to BMC, or more hopefully, rejoicing, once there are some signings.
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  #15  
Old 04-23-2017, 07:40 PM
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Would those of you that seem to want us to sign players immediately be happy with mediocre signees or would you rather wait for better players? Seems I have read the same complaints 100 times. Same complainers saying the same thing time after time. You guys get paid by the word?

Tired argument saying that Grant was not a good hire. Actually the argument has been rather weak. Been here three weeks and you expect miracles. Oh yes and he didn't have a winning record one season at Alabama. I suggest we put together a new search committee because he has no chance of winning at Dayton. Not sure if you guys are just trolls or just love to complain. We have heard it enough.It's not like you are educating us with your brilliant new information. Come back in a month and we can talk.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
To be fair the lack of smoke coming from the transfer front is cause for concern
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There is less happening on transfers right now it seems to me nationally. I mean, there are more of them but they aren't flying off the board early for the most part like they have in past years. I think it may have a bit to do with the uncertainty that's created by more and more kids going through the NBA draft process while maintaining their eligibility.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
There is less happening on transfers right now it seems to me nationally. I mean, there are more of them but they aren't flying off the board early for the most part like they have in past years. I think it may have a bit to do with the uncertainty that's created by more and more kids going through the NBA draft process while maintaining their eligibility.
I look at the transfer lists and I see the impact guys going on off the board
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Facts don't lie, he is 0-3 with our top 3 recruits, that's it in 30 days, horrible choice for head coach and people on here love it unreal
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This post is bad and you should feel bad.

It is brief, but has a number of factual errors and half-truths.

First, it is debateable who the "top 3" recruits are. Earlier in the year coach O had said UD was "three for three" with their top three targets. Davis, Pierce, Wright. So two of those three have said they are staying, and there is a small, but non-zero chance that Wright ends up here. As of right now, he has not signed a LOI for any other school. So it is not a "fact" that Wright isn't coming. Obviously recruiting rankings are notoriously unreliable (especially outside the top 40-50 or so) but Jordan Davis was pretty highly ranked, and had a bunch of good offers, including Butler, Pitt, Kansas State, Miami. Putting him outside the top 3 of our 5 guys is inaccurate, IMHO.

Second, he has also hired a very good, experienced staff, with solid reputations and good connections. Coach Solomon has developed a reputation as an excellent recruiter, and has wide Midwest (and broader) contacts from his time at ND. Tremont Waters isn't gonna be a Flyer, but Coach Slo helped to recruit him to Georgetown. Kane was regarded as a very good recruiter as Murray State, and Coach Grant knows him and trusts him. Greer is a little bit of a wildcard/unknown as an assistant, but he is well-respected, and has international connections. Darren Hertz has a ton of experience with a national championship program and can only help. There is likely one more staff member to be added, and at least a couple of grad assistants. If you think work hasn't been done in that regard, we will just have to agree to disagree.

As stated above, it hasn't been 30 days. Our previous coach took the Indiana job on 3/25. Hasn't even been 30 days since he left, much less since Grant was hired!

This wasn't in the original post, but just because we haven't seen public comments on transfers and incoming freshmen doesn't mean nothing is happening.

So in a little more than three weeks, we have gotten confirmation of commitments from two of our guys, two have asked out of their LOIs and likely are not coming to Dayton, a 5th international verbal we don't know much about aside from a couple tweets by the great Dave Jablonski. Is Svoboda the best recruit? Who knows? Would he be eligible this year? Who knows? Would he fit Coach Grant's system? Who knows? Is he still coming here? Again, almost certainly not, but maybe there are good reasons why. We also have an associate head coach who has seen great success at another Midwestern school as a top assistant. We have two other assistants and an assistant to the head coach on board.

Now look, we need two more point guard for next season, probably at least one other guy who can play next year, and then we have another spot available as of now. So as of right this moment, we have 4 spots unaccounted for and a very very strong need for a point guard who can play next year.

I'd argue that keeping 2/5 recruits isn't bad at all. All three of New Mexicos's recruits asked out of their LOIs, for example. I'm not sure who could have kept everyone on board aside from Ostrum. I think he's a great guy, a good coach, and I hope he gets a head job somewhere soon if he wants it. If you want to argue he would have been a better choice than Grant, there are arguments for him. Lying about the number of days a guy has had a job, and deliberately leaving out the entire assistant coaching staff is just foolhardy.

I'm excited to see who the next few future Flyers will be. We will need to wait a little longer; let's not make up nonsense while we are waiting.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
Would those of you that seem to want us to sign players immediately be happy with mediocre signees or would you rather wait for better players? Seems I have read the same complaints 100 times. Same complainers saying the same thing time after time. You guys get paid by the word?

Tired argument saying that Grant was not a good hire. Actually the argument has been rather weak. Been here three weeks and you expect miracles. Oh yes and he didn't have a winning record one season at Alabama. I suggest we put together a new search committee because he has no chance of winning at Dayton. Not sure if you guys are just trolls or just love to complain. We have heard it enough.It's not like you are educating us with your brilliant new information. Come back in a month and we can talk.
Is it a miracle that within two weeks of getting hired that Joe Pasternack got a good grad transfer PG from Rice and a former four star PG to transfer in?
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Is it a miracle that within two weeks of getting hired that Joe Pasternack got a good grad transfer PG from Rice and a former four star PG to transfer in?
No wonder you're upset! It would be weird if UC Santa Barbara was getting transfers like that.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
No wonder you're upset! It would be weird if UC Santa Barbara was getting transfers like that.
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He got hired at UC-Santa Barbara on April 4th.

April 11th he gets his first assistant hired

April 15th he lands Marcus Jackson from Rice as a grad transfer PG. 12ppg 2.3apg

April 18th

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#UCSB has landed a commitment from Nevada PG transfer Devearl Ramsey, he tells Scout. Former four-star prospect. Big pickup for Gauchos.

He brings a former top 150 PG


Miracles indeed
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
He got hired at UC-Santa Barbara on April 4th.

April 11th he gets his first assistant hired

April 15th he lands Marcus Jackson from Rice as a grad transfer PG. 12ppg 2.3apg

April 18th

Josh Gershon‏Verified account
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#UCSB has landed a commitment from Nevada PG transfer Devearl Ramsey, he tells Scout. Former four-star prospect. Big pickup for Gauchos.

He brings a former top 150 PG


Miracles indeed
Ha. Gotcha. I didn't realize Jackson was a point.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
There is actually another week before 30 days, but who is counting. And he hasn't lost our "top 3" recruits.
First of all he was hired end of march and yes he has lost top three recruits, if you think their coming here you need to wake the heck up
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:40 PM
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Osuflyer gets it ! AG has done absolutely nothing
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Osuflyer gets it ! AG has done absolutely nothing
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Yes. Nothing. If you don't count keeping two recruits and hiring a staff and also recruiting.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:54 PM
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R u serious ? He kept two 2* recruits ?? And lost his three highest rated recruits, as far as coaches, all he did was hire his friends he has worked with, that takes three phone calls
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
R u serious ? He kept two 2* recruits ?? And lost his three highest rated recruits, as far as coaches, all he did was hire his friends he has worked with, that takes three phone calls
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Now I'm confused. I thought he did absolutely nothing. Now you claim that he has made phone calls. Make up your mind.
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:58 PM
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Also, not that it matters, but Davis was a three star recruit per Rivals, Scout, and 24/7 sports. I'm glad he is staying a Flyer.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:06 PM
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I don't know where we are going or how we will get there. I am glad that Anthony is the coach. The ride is the adventure. Enjoy it.
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:13 PM
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If the big play behind the scenes is Jaaron Simmons, I'm all on board
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Old 04-23-2017, 09:49 PM
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I am really confused. Does the season start in May? If so, I am panicking big time.

As I recall, the season starts in October/ November. I think there is still time to land recruits.

Just because there are not public announcements, does not mean that AG and staff are idle.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I am really confused. Does the season start in May? If so, I am panicking big time.

As I recall, the season starts in October/ November. I think there is still time to land recruits.

Just because there are not public announcements, does not mean that AG and staff are idle.
True to a certain extent but rarely are the impact transfers just committing unannounced. The guys that are the difference makers have been setting up visits and committing since right after the title game. All of this info is there on Twitter

After this weekend the JUCO PGs on the top 100 list are essentially off the board. Surveying the Grad transfer list of the PGs who've already declared almost all of the guys with any proven division one production are gone. New names are gonna pop up but not at the rate they have. We also have to figure that schools who miss out Trevon Duval or Tremont Waters are gonna push that much harder to find a PG in the transfer or high school ranks

Simmons would be a fantastic get but Michigan and Ohio St are gonna be on him hard.

Misplay this situation and next year is basically punted away and potentially the season after that
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:15 PM
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Just out of curiosity, have any of those wringing their hands of a seeming lack of progress on the recruiting front: ever changed jobs; tied up loose ends at your old job thousands of miles away; relocated your family; had to assess and reassure existing presonnel to stick with you as you implement a new management system; hire a new staff; and, then go out and reassure current, yet not yet enrolled recruits, while trying to recruit new personnel? That is one helluva challenge and, IMHO, AG has done pretty well in managing the situation thus far. To get overwrought becase we haven't yet pulled in any game-changing recruits is just that...overwrought.

BTW does anybody believe the assistants AG has brought on board were just sitting by the phone waiting for a job offer? These coaches,as mentioned by THirt, have good resumes and are experienced coaches and recruiters for the most part. AG had to convince them to come with him and start a new dynasty at UD...no small order. To quote (or paraphrase) Aaron Rodgers from two years ago, "Chil-ax".

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Old 04-23-2017, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Misplay this situation and next year is basically punted away and potentially the season after that
There seems to be a sort of an established expectation on here, with some posters, that such an occurrence will be acceptable.

Many posters have already written next year off.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:52 PM
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I for one do not believe in any shape or form that next year or the year after will be a bust. And I am happy with the coaching decision. .. . .very happy. As for recruiting, I am assuming everyone is working hard and we will not be disappointed in the long run.

However, my life will not end, and my love for the Flyers will not die if we don't have as good a year as we have gotten used to, in this transition. For god's sake, get a life.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:01 PM
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Thumbs down Childish Post

Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Facts don't lie, he is 0-3 with our top 3 recruits, that's it in 30 days, horrible choice for head coach and people on here love it unreal
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This post is intended to tick some people off and many of you allowed yourself to fall for this immature ploy.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
I for one do not believe in any shape or form that next year or the year after will be a bust. And I am happy with the coaching decision. .. . .very happy. As for recruiting, I am assuming everyone is working hard and we will not be disappointed in the long run.

However, my life will not end, and my love for the Flyers will not die if we don't have as good a year as we have gotten used to, in this transition. For god's sake, get a life.
Ok, how will you feel if AG starts out 0 for 2 making the NCAAT? Is that acceptable?
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:52 PM
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Has anyone seen the coaches in Dayton this past weekend...
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Ok, how will you feel if AG starts out 0 for 2 making the NCAAT? Is that acceptable?
What does 'acceptable' mean? I won't call for him to be fired if he misses the NCAAT his first two seasons, if that's what you mean.
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow View Post
What does 'acceptable' mean?
Do you expect him to be able to make the NCAAT in either year 1 or year 2?
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
I don't know where we are going or how we will get there. I am glad that Anthony is the coach. The ride is the adventure. Enjoy it.

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Old 04-24-2017, 01:08 AM
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Missed ncaat the first two years would be a disappointment and on my hot seat
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
R u serious ? He kept two 2* recruits ?? And lost his three highest rated recruits, as far as coaches, all he did was hire his friends he has worked with, that takes three phone calls
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Whew - and here I was worried I was going to get a reputation as the negative guy in town.

I feel better now.

Look - we are all anxious to see where all of this leads. This upcoming season brings more uncertainty than I can remember. Yes, I'm nervous about the PG position like everyone else. Yes, I sweated out the assistant coaches.

But before we turn on AG...can we at least let him coach? Can we give him some time? Can we wait and see if he has a plan (Spoiler alert - he does - and it might be different than we think it should be!).

I'm all for debate, but let's let the man coach before we try to run him out of town...
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
Missed ncaat the first two years would be a disappointment and on my hot seat
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Ok, how will you feel if AG starts out 0 for 2 making the NCAAT? Is that acceptable?
This is where the divide on this board is going to come out. There is a group that is fine with UD making the NCAA tournament just every 2 or 3 years as long as the coach/players are good citizens and representatives of the university. The other group believes that UD should be in the NCAA tournament every year no matter what. This difference in expectation will lead to a lot of red pips!!!!!

My expectation is that UD should be in the NCAA tournament every single year no matter what circumstances are involved.
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Do you expect him to be able to make the NCAAT in either year 1 or year 2?
Yes, I expect that he'll be able to do that.
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Whew - and here I was worried I was going to get a reputation as the negative guy in town.

I feel better now.

Look - we are all anxious to see where all of this leads. This upcoming season brings more uncertainty than I can remember. Yes, I'm nervous about the PG position like everyone else. Yes, I sweated out the assistant coaches.

But before we turn on AG...can we at least let him coach? Can we give him some time? Can we wait and see if he has a plan (Spoiler alert - he does - and it might be different than we think it should be!).

I'm all for debate, but let's let the man coach before we try to run him out of town...
The red reps should have told you something.
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
This is where the divide on this board is going to come out. There is a group that is fine with UD making the NCAA tournament just every 2 or 3 years as long as the coach/players are good citizens and representatives of the university. The other group believes that UD should be in the NCAA tournament every year no matter what. This difference in expectation will lead to a lot of red pips!!!!!

My expectation is that UD should be in the NCAA tournament every single year no matter what circumstances are involved.
Then you were against Archie his first two years as he didn't make the NCAAT. there are realistic expectations also refereed to as wishful thinking and then there is the unrealistic. As a UCLA grad (Bill Walton era) I can assure you that not all the great programs make it year in and year out.

I can also assure you that AG and company are not sitting on their hands but are out recruiting.

Good things coming.
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:48 AM
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It was pretty obvious this was a probable train wreck as soon as Archie left. The chances were good that the program would be set back two or three years with so many recruits coming in this year. If there had only been one or two new recruits it would have been possible to just drive over the speed bump and go on. This is more like a bridge collapsing.

Maybe the recruits would have stayed if Ostrom had been the coach but we don't know if that is the case. And Ostrom has no experience as a head coach. He would have been a much riskier higher.

The off season is far from over. I think AG knows what he needs to have a successful season. He will do everything possible to create a team that gets to the ncaa tournament.
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Ok, how will you feel if AG starts out 0 for 2 making the NCAAT? Is that acceptable?
If i recall correctly- (and I think I absolutely do) - the great Archie Miller started 0-2 making the NCAA his first 2 years. Was that acceptable? If AG has UD in the dance by year 1 or 2 does that mean he's a superior coach to AM?
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
If i recall correctly- (and I think I absolutely do) - the great Archie Miller started 0-2 making the NCAA his first 2 years. Was that acceptable? If AG has UD in the dance by year 1 or 2 does that mean he's a superior coach to AM?
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different situations, no?
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
Missed ncaat the first two years would be a disappointment and on my hot seat
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So Archie was on your hot seat huh? Good thing he won the next 4 years and redeemed himself in your eyes. BTW, where do you sit the UD administrative offices? Does AG report to you?
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
different situations, no?
How are they different? Seems like BG left a mess with (2) recruits defecting on LOI (and one of those scored like 2100 career points at Providence). Seems like AM is leaving it a bigger mess and possibly stealing a recruit with him to IU- unethical at best. Oh, they are different actually...bigger mess left now than 6 years ago when BG lett...
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:28 AM
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BG got us in the NCAAT his first year. AM failed to get us in the NCAAT his first 2 years.

And from that we assume AG.....

Edit - I just realized if you take the A from AM and the G from BG you get AG. That has to mean something.
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  #54  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:47 AM
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Archie lost the only 2 recruits he had coming in the year he started with us, and I think that turned out pretty well.

Main point being, your thread title is patently wrong, AND even if it weren't, Archie started the same way.

The end.
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Edit - I just realized if you take the A from AM and the G from BG you get AG. That has to mean something.
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  #56  
Old 04-24-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
How are they different? Seems like BG left a mess with (2) recruits defecting on LOI (and one of those scored like 2100 career points at Providence). Seems like AM is leaving it a bigger mess and possibly stealing a recruit with him to IU- unethical at best. Oh, they are different actually...bigger mess left now than 6 years ago when BG lett...
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Because the Flyers didn't have a history of consistently making the NCAA tournament before Archie, so his first two years were closer to status quo. Having been there 4 straight years, it would seem to be a huge step back to go 2 - 3 years of rebuild and frankly, would go against even what coach Grant has stated, about reloading vs rebuilding. Once you set a level of expectation, anything less seems unacceptable. Do you think X fans would be okay with not making the tournament 2 years in a row if/when Mack leaves?

Hopefully we won't be in that situation and this will all be moot, but to claim we are a destination program and then not be making the tournament is a strange dichotomy. How long will UD remain a destination program if coach Grant can't get to the tournament two straight years? How much more difficult will it be to get recruits to come to UD if you aren't making the tournament and playing against the best, getting huge exposure? In other threads, there were discussions about how A-10 teams are up and down, why can't they be consistent? But it's okay for us to not be? Do you think VCU fans would be okay not making the tournament for 2 straight years with their new HC?
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  #57  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by UDBrian View Post
Maybe the recruits would have stayed if Ostrom had been the coach but we don't know if that is the case. And Ostrom has no experience as a head coach. He would have been a much riskier higher.
In many ways IMO, the opposite could be argued: it was riskier to hire AG vs. hiring one of AM's assistants.

AM had zero hc experience and was the most successful UD hc of the last 30 years...program continuity with coaching schemes, how the UD program works, and the ability to retain both current players and incoming recruits might have been better...AG has a questionable track record as a hc...AG has been out of the college game for 2 years...AM beat the team left at Alabama by AG by 32 points, 80 to 48 at UD.


http://realtimerpi.com/2015-2016/rpi_110_Men.html

Last edited by ud2; 04-24-2017 at 09:16 AM.. Reason: 32 point win, not a 40 point win
  #58  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
R u serious ? He kept two 2* recruits ?? And lost his three highest rated recruits, as far as coaches, all he did was hire his friends he has worked with, that takes three phone calls
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Actually, if you go off the major recruiting sites, Jordan Davis was our highest rated recruit and we kept him. He averaged a 3 Star between the sites. MW was only a 2.5 star average. So AG actually kept our highest rated recruit.
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  #59  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
He got hired at UC-Santa Barbara on April 4th.

April 11th he gets his first assistant hired

April 15th he lands Marcus Jackson from Rice as a grad transfer PG. 12ppg 2.3apg

April 18th

Josh Gershon‏Verified account
@JoshGershon

#UCSB has landed a commitment from Nevada PG transfer Devearl Ramsey, he tells Scout. Former four-star prospect. Big pickup for Gauchos.

He brings a former top 150 PG


Miracles indeed
Sounds to me that you now have a new team to follow. Enjoy the UCSB message board!
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  #60  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DaytonInsider View Post
Sounds to me that you now have a new team to follow. Enjoy the UCSB message board!
OSU Gauchos Flyer has a good ring to it.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:24 AM
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Awwe, somebody got their feelings hurt again on this board.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:28 AM
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As long as Rollo and Beatty Town Coach are jumping all over AG by year 3, if AG starts out 0 for 2, with a NIT appearance in year 1, just like they did with AM, then I am ok. I will be watching for consistency in terms of how those 2 react. Lol.
  #63  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:30 AM
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I Make a Motion

that we CLOSE this board until the Monday of the week of the first scheduled game. Can I get a second?
  #64  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Whew - and here I was worried I was going to get a reputation as the negative guy in town.

I feel better now.
Yes, I can always count on udscott to bail me out and take the heat off of me, if I get too negative on here.

So, thank-you udscott. Lol.
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  #65  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:39 AM
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If Grant gets us to the Dance next year, he should be coach of the year. Very little chance with what we have coming back and coming in. I expect us there every year, and nothing less, but much more, like a final four soon.

Next year, an NIT would meet my realistic expectations. This mess has set back AG to year three.
  #66  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
How are they different? Seems like BG left a mess with (2) recruits defecting on LOI (and one of those scored like 2100 career points at Providence). Seems like AM is leaving it a bigger mess and possibly stealing a recruit with him to IU- unethical at best. Oh, they are different actually...bigger mess left now than 6 years ago when BG lett...
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This is not bigger than the post Staten mess

Thanks to AG we've salvaged two recruits and have some good pieces coming from tourney team (Cunningham and X), some good role players in DD, Mikesell and Sam Miller

Now with the growing prevalence of the grad transfer rule coaches can get quality help in quickly

We land Jaaron Simmons and we've got a competitive team next year. Still a good chance that AG can deliver for us

The fact we might be a player away from being back at the top of the A10 again I think shows the program is way better shape now than then
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  #67  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
This is not bigger than the post Staten mess

Thanks to AG we've salvaged two recruits and have some good pieces coming from tourney team (Cunningham and X), some good role players in DD, Mikesell and Sam Miller

Now with the growing prevalence of the grad transfer rule coaches can get quality help in quickly

We land Jaaron Simmons and we've got a competitive team next year. Still a good chance that AG can deliver for us

The fact we might be a player away from being back at the top of the A10 again I think shows the program is way better shape now than then
I agree, the program definitely isn't the mess that some on here think it to be. We have a good core returning that has NCAA experience. No matter what recruits we have coming in, this core was going to be the guys that played the most minutes this year.

I also agree that we are 1 good grad transfer away from being a NCAA team. If we land a Simmons or a player of his caliber, we should be able to compete at the top of the A10 as long as Cunningham returns to the player he was before the injury and X continues to improve the way that he has.
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  #68  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
So Archie was on your hot seat huh? Good thing he won the next 4 years and redeemed himself in your eyes. BTW, where do you sit the UD administrative offices? Does AG report to you?
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I answered the questions asked...and I wasnt aware that I reported to you. Next time I respond I'll PM you first and make sure its ok to post
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  #69  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:19 AM
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Let's assume that Simmons can somehow replace Scoochie. Although two good years for a middle of the road Mid Am team, would not say he is another Scoochie. Who plays center next year? We will miss Pollard. We will miss Kyle. We will miss our leading scorer and rebounder, Cooke. That is some mighty modern math that allows us to get to the NCAA next year.
  #70  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Let's assume that Simmons can somehow replace Scoochie. Although two good years for a middle of the road Mid Am team, would not say he is another Scoochie. Who plays center next year? We will miss Pollard. We will miss Kyle. We will miss our leading scorer and rebounder, Cooke. That is some mighty modern math that allows us to get to the NCAA next year.
You can't replace those guys per say but the hope is that new guys step up.

we haven't seen what a healthy Josh Cunningham can bring to the table. He was a top 100 guy in high school and got a lot of doubles doubles as a freshman at Bradley

Xeyrius Williams I thought came a long way over the course of last year. I think he's got a chance to be pretty good

Kostas is someone who might defend the Peyton Aldridges/Tyler Cavanaugh type forwards who caused a bunch of problems. Offense might not be there but a 6'10 guy with good athleticism is a major plus on defense/rebounding equation

Simmons if he stays at Ohio is the MAC player of the year next season. Michigan and Ohio State along with I'm sure many P5 schools are gonna be after this guy

Miller, Landers, Mikesell, DD are all guys capable of improving.
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  #71  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Facts don't lie, he is 0-3 with our top 3 recruits, that's it in 30 days, horrible choice for head coach and people on here love it unreal
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Because Archie was instrumental in keeping all his recruits, bringing in the frog, and killing it his first two years...

Turn off Coldplay and be happy. Grant is going to be fine.
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  #72  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Sitdowndigger View Post
Because Archie was instrumental in keeping all his recruits, bringing in the frog, and killing it his first two years...

Turn off Coldplay and be happy. Grant is going to be fine.
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  #73  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
True to a certain extent but rarely are the impact transfers just committing unannounced. The guys that are the difference makers have been setting up visits and committing since right after the title game. All of this info is there on Twitter
Really don't care much about players who need to sit a year at this point. There's enough mid-year transfers to look for guys who may fit a system, and with the classes as unbalanced as they are I'd much rather see them sit on a few open scholarships.

Point guard is clearly an issue.
  #74  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Do you expect him to be able to make the NCAAT in either year 1 or year 2?
No. And I did not expect the current coach of IU to make the NCAAT next year if he stayed at UD. I thought he'd be lucky to be on the NIT bubble.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
In many ways IMO, the opposite could be argued: it was riskier to hire AG vs. hiring one of AM's assistants.

AM had zero hc experience and was the most successful UD hc of the last 30 years...program continuity with coaching schemes, how the UD program works, and the ability to retain both current players and incoming recruits might have been better...AG has a questionable track record as a hc...AG has been out of the college game for 2 years...AM beat the team left at Alabama by AG by 32 points, 80 to 48 at UD.


http://realtimerpi.com/2015-2016/rpi_110_Men.html
Coaching schemes change all the time when an assistant takes over. They don't necessarily want to run the same stuff.

As for the other stuff, I don't give a ****. Meaningless isolated data points.
  #76  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Coaching schemes change all the time when an assistant takes over. They don't necessarily want to run the same stuff.

As for the other stuff, I don't give a ****. Meaningless isolated data points.
You talk with the coach during the interview and ask him what his coaching scheme plans are. There has been little, if any, scheme change at Butler and Xavier through the years, from since Matta was at both programs.




Meaningless isolated data points??? Gimme a break.

Last edited by ud2; 04-24-2017 at 11:39 AM..
  #77  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Then you were against Archie his first two years as he didn't make the NCAAT. there are realistic expectations also refereed to as wishful thinking and then there is the unrealistic. As a UCLA grad (Bill Walton era) I can assure you that not all the great programs make it year in and year out.
My expectations are different now than they were when I was celebrating the departure of Brian Gregory (Thanks again Georgia Tech!). Archie elevated the program to a higher level and with that come higher expectations for the next guy. Am I going to start FireCoachGrant.com if he doesn't make the NCAA tournament his first 2 seasons? No. But if he doesn't make it by his 3rd season I probably will.

Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
I can also assure you that AG and company are not sitting on their hands but are out recruiting. Good things coming.
Did I mention anywhere that CAG and his staff were not out recruiting/working hard? I don't think so. I know they are just like every other staff in the country is too.

Last edited by C-time; 04-24-2017 at 11:41 AM..
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  #78  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
No. And I did not expect the current coach of IU to make the NCAAT next year if he stayed at UD. I thought he'd be lucky to be on the NIT bubble.
I disagree.
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  #79  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
As long as Rollo and Beatty Town Coach are jumping all over AG by year 3... then I am ok. I will be watching for consistency in terms of how those 2 react. Lol.
I didn't jump Miller for his record...I jumped Miller for allowing and covering for felonious behavior all for the sake of winning. I said this more than once in that time: "I'd rather lose with winners than win with losers." If Grant follows that same path, he'll hear from me. All of you will.

So let it be written.

So let it be done.

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  #80  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I didn't jump Miller for his record...I jumped Miller for allowing and covering for felonious behavior all for the sake of winning. I said this more than once in that time: "I'd rather lose with winners than win with losers." If Grant follows that same path, he'll hear from me. All of you will.

So let it be written.

So let it be done.

King Rollo the Consistent...OUT!
No, several times you and BTC both said that AM had no idea what he was doing and was a poor coach. You 2 were all over him for his coaching.

It had nothing to do with Scott and Robinson.
  #81  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Coaching schemes change all the time when an assistant takes over. They don't necessarily want to run the same stuff.

As for the other stuff, I don't give a ****. Meaningless isolated data points.
I agree 100%. Each coach has their own distinct style. If Griffin was hired, he may have wanted to play the Syracuse zone he played as a player. Ostrum spent most of his career in the Billy Donovan tree, he may have run something more similar to what AG will run than what AM did. Kuwik is the off the Matta tree, so he may have had a similar style to Matta. Assistants will adapt to the style of the head coach, whether they totally agree with it or not. When you watched Archie, you could see the Matta/Sendek influence, but you could definitely see defense that Sean Miller ran at X and runs at Arizona.
  #82  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Let's assume that Simmons can somehow replace Scoochie. Although two good years for a middle of the road Mid Am team, would not say he is another Scoochie.
Simmons is the real deal. Problem is it doesn't seem real likely he is coming to Dayton. There will probably be more questions about the guy(s) Dayton does actually bring in, but PG play is obviously the biggest question mark of all. So big in fact, that it's hard to really even think about any other holes and question marks, so kudos to you for thinking about them.

Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Who plays center next year? We will miss Pollard.
No doubt we will miss Pollard. I think he was the emotional leader. A healthy Josh Cunningham is a very different player than Kendall Pollard but as far as stats go, he should give everything Pollard gave you and more, particularly rebounding, which is something Pollard should actually been much better at in my opinion. He played center at Bradley and will be a force in the post for UD next year as long as he can stay healthy. Xeyrius and Kostas have similar body types, incredibly athleticism, the ability to block shots and defend bigger guys though they may lack strength. Sam can throw his body around and will be needed in the paint. And then there's the new kid, Jordan Pierce, who is the center of the future, but counting on much of anything from a freshman big is ambitious. They always take time to develop. Though none may be ideal, we actually have more options at the position this coming year than last, with Big Steve having been taken from us so tragically and unexpectedly.

Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
We will miss Kyle.
Great leader, best defender, glue guy, unbelievable in transition... There is probably no one on the roster that's going to replace Kyle. But what Dayton might be able to do is play a better scorer at the position. The Davises will have to step up. DD will need to step up leadership and needs to have a lot of 4-6 from three type nights. He's capable. Jordan's rep is as an unstoppable scorer. Here's hoping he's the next Brian Roberts. I'm reminded of the Mark Jones to Brian Roberts transition. Kyle Davis is much than Mark Jones and chances are Jordan Davis isn't Brian Roberts, but comparing the types of players they are/were is an optimistic way of looking at things.

Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
We will miss our leading scorer and rebounder, Cooke.
Certainly. I think Xeyrius will be our high volume shooter, scorer and the guy who like Cooke, is the one opposing coaches will key on. I'm not counting on big offense from Kostas in year one, but I am interested to see if Dayton plays Kostas and Xeyrius at the same time. Slow down one Xeyrius Williams? Maybe. Slow down (basically) two Xeyrius Williams? Impossible. Who has a roster that can guard two guys with that combination of size and guard-like skills?

But anyway, back to Cooke... In regards to the rebounds he provided, replacing those is the least worrisome. See above. Cunningham will gobble those up. A healthy Josh Cunningham will be the closest thing Dayton has had to Ryan Perryman since Ryan Perryman. Fear not there.

The really great thing about Cooke is that he was he was a very good playmaker and passer who dished assists as well as being a great scorer who got buckets with relative efficiency. Perhaps most importantly, he really attacked the rim and got to the free throw line. Oh, and he could defend too. He had all the aspects to his game that I so wished Jordan Sibert would focus on.

Xeyrius is a great shooter, but he knows he can just shoot over anyone. He's by far the best contested three point shooter Dayton has, but contested threes aren't great shots for anyone. So I worry that we'll replace some of Cooke's offensive output with a ton of XW jumpers like we got at times from Jordan Sibert. Maybe we can get him the ball in the post some to get him going towards the rim as we did with Dyshawn Pierre... Maybe Xeyrius makes strides attacking the basket this year... Maybe that attacking mindset is what Kostas brings... Maybe Grant pulls in a grad transfer who is a bigtime scorer who keeps the Sibert/Cooke thing going... We'll see how it plays out.

Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
That is some mighty modern math that allows us to get to the NCAA next year.
For the sum to equal an NCAA tourney bid next year, Grant obviously will have to add to the roster. He's definitely going to add guys. But who will he add and will it be enough? Expecting an NCAA birth after four straight, with a new coach implementing a new system with players not recruited specifically for that system is asking a bit much. But there are just too many unknowns on the roster to make a prediction one way or another at this time.

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  #83  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
You talk with the coach during the interview and ask him what his coaching scheme plans are. There has been little, if any, scheme change at Butler and Xavier through the years, from since Matta was at both programs.




Meaningless isolated data points??? Gimme a break.
One game is an isolated data point by definition. Why don't we just say we should have hired the former coach at Buffalo because he beat an Archie Miller team by 30 and gave them the worst home loss in UD history (IIRC)?

There has been more scheme change at Xavier than you think. They don't run the same offenses or defenses under Mack than Miller. And Miller didn't run the same defense as Matta. Is the succession due to good coaches being promoted, or continuation of system. I think it's far more of the former since most of the ex-coaches have gone on to success at their next stop.

Promoting assistants doesn't keep recruits necessarily. Xavier lost recruits when promoting Mack and when promoting Miller IIRC.

If any of UD assistants were moving on to head coaching jobs, I might agree. But Archie's staff stayed together for 6 years. That's a lifetime when a program at Dayton's level makes four straight NCAAT. That tells me either none are ready (Griffin) or none are HC material or don't want HC positions.

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  #84  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I didn't jump Miller for his record...I jumped Miller for allowing and covering for felonious behavior all for the sake of winning. I said this more than once in that time: "I'd rather lose with winners than win with losers." If Grant follows that same path, he'll hear from me. All of you will.

So let it be written.

So let it be done.

King Rollo the Consistent...OUT!
And to be fair, most of this board was all over AM early in year 3 too. I remember you 2 being more prominent critics though.
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I disagree.
We will never know.

But I don't think a team with the current sophomores and Darrell Davis playing the major roles is top 3 in the A10, and I don't think a team with freshman playing the major roles does either. Especially when said freshman were not the highest rated recruiting class in the A10. Archie was great at player development - his development skills weren't going to influence the freshmen.
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
One game is an isolated data point by definition. Why don't we just say we should have hired the former coach at Buffalo because he beat an Archie Miller team by 30 and gave them the worst home loss in UD history (IIRC)?

There has been more scheme change at Xavier than you think. They don't run the same offenses or defenses under Mack than Miller. And Miller didn't run the same defense as Matta. Is the succession due to good coaches being promoted, or continuation of system. I think it's far more of the former since most of the ex-coaches have gone on to success at their next stop.
I was also referring to the other points I brought up, not just the score to one game.

There has not been that much change, maybe a few minor tweaks here and there, but still essentially the same system, all of those guys are basically from the same coaching tree.

Going from Archie to Grant though is going to be a major change. Grant's offense is nothing at all like Archie's.
  #87  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:06 PM
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
There has not been that much change, maybe a few minor tweaks here and there, but still essentially the same system, all of those guys are basically from the same coaching tree.
I think you are mistaken. Unless by change you mean they haven't gone from a primarily man defense to zone. Their rotations are different, how they rotate is different, and the roles on offense are different. Mack does not run Miller's defense or offense. So called coaching trees do not create coaching clones.

AG had a so so stint at Arkansas. His time at VCU isn't exactly questionable. And while you point out continuity, many can point out the number of coaches who were highly successful at places like VCU, not so successful in the P5, and then highly successful at similar places to a VCU.

And Ostrum is more a Billy Donovan/John Pelphrey disciple than Miller. He may have totally instituted Florida/Arkansas style of play. Maybe he said that in his interview and Neil said well if we are totally changing things up let's hire from outside.

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Old 04-24-2017, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
That is some mighty modern math that allows us to get to the NCAA next year.
Obviously it depends on who plays point - but to get to the tourney we just need to win the A10 tournament.

I think the A10 will be down next year. I still see us as a top 4 team. Cunningham, X, & Kostas should all be as good or better than they guys they are matching up with most nights.

Do I think it will be a roster that will make a run in the tourney? Unlikely (depending on who gets added). But making the tournament is not totally out of the question with a weaker A10.
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  #90  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
We will never know.

But I don't think a team with the current sophomores and Darrell Davis playing the major roles is top 3 in the A10, and I don't think a team with freshman playing the major roles does either. Especially when said freshman were not the highest rated recruiting class in the A10. Archie was great at player development - his development skills weren't going to influence the freshmen.
Again, I disagree.

It is certainly possible that the freshmen could develop better than you think they would have and therefore played a bigger role. In addition, the rest of the roster could have improved also.

Year-to-year player improvement was a consistent hallmark of Archie's time here.
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer View Post
I answered the questions asked...and I wasnt aware that I reported to you. Next time I respond I'll PM you first and make sure its ok to post
This is what people do when faced with ABC logic that doesn't fit their agenda. They create their own parallel universe where logic doesn't apply.
  #92  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I think you are mistaken. Unless by change you mean they haven't gone from a primarily man defense to zone. Their rotations are different, how they rotate is different, and the roles on offense are different. Mack does not run Miller's defense or offense.

AG had a so so stint at Arkansas. His time at VCU isn't exactly questionable. And while you point out continuity, many can point out the number of coaches who were highly successful at places like VCU, not so successful in the P5, and then highly successful at similar places to a VCU.

And Ostrum is more a Billy Donovan/John Pelphrey disciple than Miller. He may have totally instituted Florida/Arkansas style of play. Maybe he said that in his interview and Neil said well if we are totally changing things up let's hire from outside.
Agree to disagree...I see little significant difference...the biggest difference IMO is Mack's willingness to play more zone, both 1-3-1 and 2-3.

I highly doubt that Ostrum or Kuwik or Griffin would have proposed totally changing things up after UD just had its best run in multiple decades.

Creighton had plateaued under Altman, they probably wanted to change things up by hiring McDermott.

A point in McDermott's favor, is that McDermott being successful at Northern Iowa was tougher IMO than AG being successful at VCU. McDermott was the one that resurrected UNI. AG continued what Capel started at VCU. AG did do well at VCU though.

Thee are few examples like McDermott. Who else can you cite?
  #93  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
We will never know.

But I don't think a team with the current sophomores and Darrell Davis playing the major roles is top 3 in the A10, and I don't think a team with freshman playing the major roles does either. Especially when said freshman were not the highest rated recruiting class in the A10. Archie was great at player development - his development skills weren't going to influence the freshmen.
It was not unheard of for freshmen to be significant contributors under Archie.

Pierre 9 and 5 fr. year.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...-pierre-1.html



Big Steve 6 and 6 and 2 bpg fr. year.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...celvene-1.html



Robinson 6 and 5 fr. year.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...binson--1.html
  #94  
Old 04-24-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Agree to disagree...I see little significant difference...the biggest difference IMO is Mack's willingness to play more zone, both 1-3-1 and 2-3.

I highly doubt that Ostrum or Kuwik or Griffin would have proposed totally changing things up after UD just had its best run in multiple decades.

Creighton had plateaued under Altman, they probably wanted to change things up by hiring McDermott.

A point in McDermott's favor, is that McDermott being successful at Northern Iowa was tougher IMO than AG being successful at VCU. McDermott was the one that resurrected UNI. AG continued what Capel started at VCU. AG did do well at VCU though.

Thee are few examples like McDermott. Who else can you cite?
Just because teams have continued success from promoting from within, doesn't mean they are running the same things. Sean Miller made a number of big changes after taking over for Matta. He runs a totally different style of defense than Matta. Chris Mack has changed things up again, while still running the pack line defense, but he runs a lot more zone than any previous X coach. Miller and Mack run a more open offense that is centered around guards, while Matta played more inside out.

Brad Stevens also made a lot of changes at Butler when he took over after Licklighter. He used a lot more analytics while coaching than any of the previous staff members. Brandon Miller was only there a year before he was replaced with Holtmann. In that year he was 14-17. Holtmann never coached under Stevens and again, runs a totally different system then the coaches prior to him as he already had HC experience.
  #95  
Old 04-24-2017, 01:25 PM
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Not sure which year it was (probably yr 3) after a 1-5 start in conference I was one of the naysayers calling for a blackout for the next game. No one listened and Archie got some good advice from Mata and well the rest is history.

So clearly coaches can turn things around too.

AG stated that he had learned a lot during his coaching gigs and will be applying these here at UD. So he may not run the same offense he did at Alabama...time will tell.
  #96  
Old 04-24-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by udscott View Post
Facts don't lie, he is 0-3 with our top 3 recruits, that's it in 30 days, horrible choice for head coach and people on here love it unreal
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Don't know if you are outright trolling or not, but you certainly got the reaction that a troll would.

Here's mine:

The "fact" is that we know that AG is not 0-3 on recruits, he is 2-2. The Jordans are both still coming. MW reopened his recruitment but is still considering UD; Nahziah Carter said he was going to prep school, now he is saying he won't and he is still a possibility; Svoboda has been MIA and no one knows if he's coming or not.

I suggest you wait until decisions are actually made before you determine that AG is a "horrible choice."
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
I suggest you wait until decisions are actually made before you determine that AG is a "horrible choice."
Yeah...kinda like you did before, during and after the election!
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  #98  
Old 04-24-2017, 01:58 PM
FLYER5 FLYER5 is offline
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Everyone knows PG is the priority. We can have the most explosive wings in the league but if we don't recruit a starting PG to get them the ball in the half-court we're in deep doodoo. Because the PG quandry is a glaring need then I'll wait to give my opinion until after AG lands him. Think the juco ship has sailed if not for the picked-over prospects that remain there.
  #99  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post

I suggest you wait until decisions are actually made before you determine that AG is a "horrible choice."
I agree with what this 100 percent. Actually I'll take it further and say wait until you've seen his Flyers team in action before deeming AG as a "horrible choice".

With that said, how come nobody says the same thing to the many that annointed him a "great choice"?
Mad Props to Smitty10 For This Totally Excellent Post:
UDGutter2 (04-24-2017)
  #100  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:36 PM
Sea Bass Sea Bass is offline
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It doesn't matter what kind of choice he is/was the Flyers have to live with it for 4 or 5 years. Hope for the best for Anthony. It is a long term project.
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