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  #101  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:33 AM
MNFats MNFats is offline
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
It's amusing to me that you find people talking up the kid that committed to Dayton and talking down the kid that decommitted to UD surprising on a UD FAN MESSAGE BOARD.

If you want totally unbiased fan comments... good luck finding them. Maybe you can start up your own board. And shut it down a few months later due to complete lack of interest.
My last post on the topic - since it's slightly off-topic here.

Saying Crutcher is as good or better than MW is biased. Most recruiting services disagree. But if someone wants to be biased and say Crutcher is better - I have no problem with that.

You can be biased without being petty.

Go read through the MW thread (if you have a couple of days to waste). There was some petty stuff in there. So yes, I will point out the hypocrisy when we open our arms to a guy with the same track record (All the way down to calling us "Dayton University").

EDIT: For the record - I like both kids a lot. I don't think either of them did anything wrong. My opinion.

Last edited by MNFats; 05-08-2017 at 11:55 AM..
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  #102  
Old 05-08-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by tlangs98 View Post
How long before Colorado's coach leaves? If Colorado's trajectory continues to rise, he gone.
Everyone says their current job is their dream job, but Tad Boyle has really gone out of his way to say it over and over again at Colorado. But I do agree with you that he is a guy that I would think a lot of ADs would target, having gone 149 - 95 in six seasons and made the tourney in 4 of those 6 years. He's also got 2 four star recruits and another 3 star coming in this season with McKinley, making it the top-rated recruiting class in that program's history.
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  #103  
Old 05-08-2017, 12:17 PM
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Welcome to the UD family.....and if you are reading this you can see we are composed of more than our fair share of ADD individuals. Staying on topic you surely jest. Fixation on the past and not the future. Write your own history!

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  #104  
Old 05-08-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
My last post on the topic - since it's slightly off-topic here.

Saying Crutcher is as good or better than MW is biased. Most recruiting services disagree.
I feel like if we have a bias it's actually toward McKinley Wright because we built him up in our minds over a long period of time as something really great, whereas we are just starting to do that with Crutcher.

But I am trying to fact check what you are saying here, and I'm not sure it's accurate as most of what I am seeing has them ranked the same at least in terms of stars. Several sites like ESPN don't rank either of them. But of the two sites I know of which compile "composite ranks" so you can compare the grades of multiple scouting services, here is what Verbal Commits and 24/7 Sports has --

VERBAL COMMITS:
Jalen Crutcher: 3 stars composite rank
McKinley Wright: 2.5 stars composite rank

http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/jalen-crutcher
http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/mckinley-wright

24/7 SPORTS
McKinley is composite ranked 3 stars (#222). They have him graded out as an 89/100.
Crutcher is composite ranked 3 stars (#314) They have him graded out as an 86/100.

http://247sports.com/player/jalen-crutcher-92031
http://247sports.com/player/mckinley-wright-80550
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  #105  
Old 05-08-2017, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
So, what round will he go in? If I had the power to close threads, you and your twin udscott would never get one to last a minute. Process that.
Process this. I've never made reference to downgrade you at all. You are quick to judge and convicting in your judgment of others I've seen. You lash out a lot. I can almost see your lip quivering and your fingers tapping. Cool down, man. There are two threads that were locked, re-opened to include one final post, then locked again. Those posts belong to you.
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  #106  
Old 05-08-2017, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
I feel like if we have a bias it's actually toward McKinley Wright because we built him up in our minds over a long period of time as something really great, whereas we are just starting to do that with Crutcher.

But I am trying to fact check what you are saying here, and I'm not sure it's accurate as most of what I am seeing has them ranked the same at least in terms of stars. Several sites like ESPN don't rank either of them. But of the two sites I know of which compile "composite ranks" so you can compare the grades of multiple scouting services, here is what Verbal Commits and 24/7 Sports has --

VERBAL COMMITS:
Jalen Crutcher: 3 stars composite rank
McKinley Wright: 2.5 stars composite rank

http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/jalen-crutcher
http://www.verbalcommits.com/players/mckinley-wright

24/7 SPORTS
McKinley is composite ranked 3 stars (#222). They have him graded out as an 89/100.
Crutcher is composite ranked 3 stars (#314) They have him graded out as an 86/100.

http://247sports.com/player/jalen-crutcher-92031
http://247sports.com/player/mckinley-wright-80550
Dang it - here I am posting on the topic again.

Verbal commits isn't really a ranking. They take averages. Looking by scouting service:

- ESPN doesn't really have much to say about either
- 247 favors MW (89 >86)
- 247 Composite favors MW (222 > 314)
- Rivals lists both as 3 stars, but favors MW if you look at PG rankings (16 > NR)
- Scout is where MW takes a hit on his Verbal Commit average. They have him listed without a star rating, bringing down his average. Crutcher doesn't show any info at all from Scout (on Verbal Commits) so it doesn't hurt his average.

Either way - I'm not sure there is a single scouting service listing Crutcher ahead of MW. I hedged my comment by saying "most recruiting services", but in reality it may be all of them. I'll stick with "most" to be safe.
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  #107  
Old 05-08-2017, 01:36 PM
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  #108  
Old 05-08-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tlangs98 View Post
How long before Colorado's coach leaves? If Colorado's trajectory continues to rise, he gone.
No, check out his Wikipedia page...he was pursued by other p5 schools after both years 1 and 2 at Colorado...he turned down the offers and chose to stay at Colorado...he says that he wants to make Colorado his last job.

He is 54 years old. He probably would have left by now if he was ever planning on leaving...entering his 8th year there in the 2017-2018 season.

We should not feel bad about losing a recruit to Colorado.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tad_Boyle#Other_jobs:


Other jobs Edit

After his first year at CU, Boyle received interest for the head coaching position at Texas A&M vacated by his old friend Mark Turgeon, after Mark left to be the head coach at Maryland. Tad rebuffed this interest and stayed at his "dream job" at CU.[10]

Following his second season at CU, Boyle continued to draw interest from other programs and his name was linked with the Nebraska and Kansas State openings, although he once again denied interest in both jobs stating "I want to do something special here at Colorado. I don’t have any interest in other jobs. I would love it if CU were my last job."[11]

Last edited by ud2; 05-08-2017 at 01:42 PM..
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  #109  
Old 05-08-2017, 01:39 PM
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I know it is off season and all, but some of you just suck all the fun out of coming on here to read about the Flyers....
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  #110  
Old 05-08-2017, 01:44 PM
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I know it is off season and all, but some of you just suck all the fun out of coming on here to read about the Flyers....[I][/

I too have grown weary of the idle meaningless chatter on this board.

And don't tell me not to read it, it's unavoidable if you come here to read about what's actually going on with the team.

Ray Harper blows.
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  #111  
Old 05-08-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Dang it - here I am posting on the topic again.

Verbal commits isn't really a ranking. They take averages. Looking by scouting service:

- ESPN doesn't really have much to say about either
- 247 favors MW (89 >86)
- 247 Composite favors MW (222 > 314)
- Rivals lists both as 3 stars, but favors MW if you look at PG rankings (16 > NR)
- Scout is where MW takes a hit on his Verbal Commit average. They have him listed without a star rating, bringing down his average. Crutcher doesn't show any info at all from Scout (on Verbal Commits) so it doesn't hurt his average.

Either way - I'm not sure there is a single scouting service listing Crutcher ahead of MW. I hedged my comment by saying "most recruiting services", but in reality it may be all of them. I'll stick with "most" to be safe.
I know it doesn't have anything to do with MW being from Minnesota but you do spend a lot of time extolling the virtues of a kid that isn't coming here.

Hey, how about that Crutcher kid? Any thoughts?
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  #112  
Old 05-08-2017, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
My last post on the topic - since it's slightly off-topic here.

Saying Crutcher is as good or better than MW is biased. Most recruiting services disagree. But if someone wants to be biased and say Crutcher is better - I have no problem with that.

You can be biased without being petty.
Either is factually inaccurate. Neither one has played a second of college basketball. They also played in wildly different high school systems. Minnesota is arguably less talented than where Crutcher played.

However, Wright had better offers and has a better star rating. Does that make him better? There is no such thing as "objective" better on these kids... not yet.
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  #113  
Old 05-08-2017, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Crutch is a great nickname for a PG. At that position, he should prop up his teammates and act as a support for the offense.
Crutch in the clutch!
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  #114  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
No, check out his Wikipedia page...he was pursued by other p5 schools after both years 1 and 2 at Colorado...he turned down the offers and chose to stay at Colorado...he says that he wants to make Colorado his last job.

He is 54 years old. He probably would have left by now if he was ever planning on leaving...entering his 8th year there in the 2017-2018 season.

We should not feel bad about losing a recruit to Colorado.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tad_Boyle#Other_jobs:


Other jobs Edit

After his first year at CU, Boyle received interest for the head coaching position at Texas A&M vacated by his old friend Mark Turgeon, after Mark left to be the head coach at Maryland. Tad rebuffed this interest and stayed at his "dream job" at CU.[10]

Following his second season at CU, Boyle continued to draw interest from other programs and his name was linked with the Nebraska and Kansas State openings, although he once again denied interest in both jobs stating "I want to do something special here at Colorado. I don’t have any interest in other jobs. I would love it if CU were my last job."[11]
So according to another thread on this board if Boyle stays at Colorado until he retires that means Colorado is a destination job.
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  #115  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:12 PM
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  #116  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Either is factually inaccurate. Neither one has played a second of college basketball. They also played in wildly different high school systems. Minnesota is arguably less talented than where Crutcher played.

However, Wright had better offers and has a better star rating. Does that make him better? There is no such thing as "objective" better on these kids... not yet.
Factually JC is much greater than MW because 1.) he is a Flyer and 2.) he wants to be here

I couldn't care less about a kid who walked away from UD for what could easily and objectively be seen as a lateral move. He had every right to go elsewhere and
we have every right to feel he is a defector, immature, low iq etc. That's how opinions and message boards work. I get the real sense that MNFATS is at least a close friend the way he seems to come to his defense so easily. Don't remember seeing any posts from him before Arch left but not on here that much in off season so could have missed it.

I wish MW no ill will and I'm sure not gonna be happy if he doesn't pan out as hyped by some or angry if he exceeds those expectations. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it either way.
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Last edited by Marysville Flyer; 05-08-2017 at 03:35 PM..
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  #117  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
Jalen played in the AAU Adidas Gauntlet tourney last weekend as a U17 and put up some crazy numbers. Look at these shooting percentages. https://mobile.twitter.com/I_OWNTHE_...726529/photo/1
In the Adidas tournament, Jalen played 5 games... Coach McCall said when he signed him at Tenn-Chat "The kid can really, really shoot"... only a 5 game sample, but yes, it looks like Coach McCall was right - our new recruit can REALLY, REALLY shoot...

30 / 44 fg 68.2%
17 / 26 3 pt 65.4%
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  #118  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:31 PM
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  #119  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:45 PM
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  #120  
Old 05-08-2017, 03:50 PM
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This thread should be 100% about Jalen Crutcher, and how he will fit in at UD. Not about another player, a coach for a different team, or especially what you little boys think of each other and your **** measuring contest. Nobody gives a ****, stop polluting this board.

Let's talk about the greatest point guard in basketball history ( until proven otherwise), Jalen Crutcher!
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  #121  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sheg View Post
This thread should be 100% about Jalen Crutcher, and how he will fit in at UD. Not about another player, a coach for a different team, or especially what you little boys think of each other and your **** measuring contest. Nobody gives a ****, stop polluting this board.

Let's talk about the greatest point guard in basketball history ( until proven otherwise), Jalen Crutcher!
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  #122  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sheg View Post
This thread should be 100% about Jalen Crutcher, and how he will fit in at UD. Not about another player, a coach for a different team, or especially what you little boys think of each other and your **** measuring contest. Nobody gives a ****, stop polluting this board.

Let's talk about the greatest point guard in basketball history ( until proven otherwise), Jalen Crutcher!
Ray Harper agrees that all threads on this board should remain on topic 100% of the time!
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  #123  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
I get the real sense that MNFATS is at least a close friend the way he seems to come to his defense so easily. Don't remember seeing any posts from him before Arch left but not on here that much in off season so could have missed it.Posted via Mobile Device
Really jumping to a conclusion there.

Been reading this site for many years, posting on here for 2+ years (on-season and off-season) and am a Pride+ member. I also graduated from UD.

But your version is more fun.
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  #124  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:43 PM
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Here's an interesting link to help change the subject:

Scoochie Smith helped sell Dayton Flyers to new recruit

"...
Crutcher learned much more about Dayton during his visit. Coach Anthony Grant told him about his NBA experiences and what it was like to coach Russell Westbrook. He heard about Milwaukee Bucks star Giannis Antetokounmpo’s visit to his brother Kostas, a Dayton freshman, on campus on April 29...."

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  #125  
Old 05-08-2017, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
Factually JC is much greater than MW because 1.) he is a Flyer and 2.) he wants to be here
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JC? We need to get things established right now. If Crosby comes back does he repossess the JC identity? If Crosby doesn't come back, shouldn't Josh get it?
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  #126  
Old 05-08-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
JC? We need to get things established right now. If Crosby comes back does he repossess the JC identity? If Crosby doesn't come back, shouldn't Josh get it?
We might actually have to call them Josh, John, and Jalen. Or JCro, JCu, and JCru? Bucky has a hard enough time with names, I can't imagine him with abbreviations.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:46 PM
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One more assist from Scoochie

Nice to see that Scoochie helped recruit Jalen:

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/spo...2VoPi22ItVXQO/
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  #128  
Old 05-09-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Well, I liked Bobby Joe Hooper a lot, that's why I made the statement. But in all fairness, if you're just looking at NCAA wins for accomplishments, our consensus greatest PG, Johnny Davis(1 NCAA win) would take a back seat to Hooper and Scooch and would be considered maybe equal to Knight and Warren. So, I can't really base it on that.
If there was ever a player who single handedly put a team on his back, with virtually no supporting cast, it was Johnny Davis. And for the record, Negele Knight in my opinion scores a solid 88/100; very good when he wanted to play. Unfortunately, if my sources are correct, was instrumental in getting Donoher fired. So for that reason, his career feels tainted to me despite carrying the team on his back his senior year and giving JOB his one highlight as a college coach with ONE NCAA win.

Johnny Davis? Just look at his NBA career to decide who was the better player between him and NK. he scores a 97/100 at the college level and is the best PG to ever wear a UD uniform; you're all crazy if you see it otherwise.

Bobby Joe Hooper based on toughness and team leadership as a PG and for his lifetime accomplishments at the college level at UD is a higher in my opinion than NK. I'd rank him just behind Johnny Davis as one of the best that "I" ever saw play at UD. He scores a 95/100.

SS - I'd also rank him near the top and tied with BJH at 95/100. Professional career yet to be determined. And I base this his 4 years of total team play, wizardry with the ball and clutch play when needed. You rarely saw an off night with SS and he'll be missed no matter how good Jalen Crutcher is (and I suspect Jalen will turn heads before all is over).

Now go ahead UD pride, pick me apart; I don't care what anyone thinks...these thoughts are my opinions. I've just never understood the adulation of Negele Knight- who from what I have seen has pretty much dismissed UD...
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  #129  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:11 AM
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Johnny Davis had no supporting cast? His lone NCAA year (freshman), he played alongside Donald Smith and had Mike Sylvester in the frontcourt, not to mention Allen Elijah and Joe Fisher. I agree he had little help in the two years that followed, but he "carried them" to marginally winning seasons. All that said, I agree he's the best pure point guard in UD history. Also, I never heard anything about Knight leading the charge against Donoher, who recruited him. But the boosters and administration were certainly ready for a change.
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  #130  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:19 AM
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I find it very difficult to compare players of different eras.

I barely remember Hooper, but I saw a bit of Davis, Knight and Smith.

Johnny played when the dunk was illegal, players spent more time on the court than the weight room and sports science is nowhere close to today. Scouting was not as sophisticated then either.

The only way to compare in my opinion is the impact they had on their teams. Johnny had an excellent class to go with him and he turned out to be the spark plug. I think Scoochie benefited from solid teammates as well. Negele had solid teammates but probably played on the weakest overall team.

All three had major impact even though I would put an asterisk next to Knight. I knew he had injuries and I did hear through the grapevine about that class quitting on Donoher.
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  #131  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 79 View Post
Nice to see that Scoochie helped recruit Jalen:

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/spo...2VoPi22ItVXQO/
I happened to notice that Jitaurious Gordan started following Scoochie on twitter. Not sure the timing of that or if we are still recruiting him, but really nice to see these outgoing seniors pushing Dayton. Crutcher got a nice welcome from not only Scoochie as has been reported but some of the other seniors as well as evidenced by social media interaction he's had with other guys as well.
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  #132  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
If there was ever a player who single handedly put a team on his back, with virtually no supporting cast, it was Johnny Davis. And for the record, Negele Knight in my opinion scores a solid 88/100; very good when he wanted to play. Unfortunately, if my sources are correct, was instrumental in getting Donoher fired. So for that reason, his career feels tainted to me despite carrying the team on his back his senior year and giving JOB his one highlight as a college coach with ONE NCAA win.

Johnny Davis? Just look at his NBA career to decide who was the better player between him and NK. he scores a 97/100 at the college level and is the best PG to ever wear a UD uniform; you're all crazy if you see it otherwise.

Bobby Joe Hooper based on toughness and team leadership as a PG and for his lifetime accomplishments at the college level at UD is a higher in my opinion than NK. I'd rank him just behind Johnny Davis as one of the best that "I" ever saw play at UD. He scores a 95/100.

SS - I'd also rank him near the top and tied with BJH at 95/100. Professional career yet to be determined. And I base this his 4 years of total team play, wizardry with the ball and clutch play when needed. You rarely saw an off night with SS and he'll be missed no matter how good Jalen Crutcher is (and I suspect Jalen will turn heads before all is over).

Now go ahead UD pride, pick me apart; I don't care what anyone thinks...these thoughts are my opinions. I've just never understood the adulation of Negele Knight- who from what I have seen has pretty much dismissed UD...
As soon as I saw the phrase "with virtually no supporting cast", I just knew you had to be referring to Knight. Shocked that you weren't. Negele had more would-be assists that bounced off hands of stone than any other pg in our history.

No idea about his part in Donoher's firing, and it's unfortunate that he's disappeared from UD since his playing days. While those things may diminish his likeability, it doesn't diminish what he did on the court. (Not for me anyway.)

In my lifetime/memory, I give Negele the slight edge over Roberts as #2 behind Davis. Yeah sure, Roberts wasn't a true pg, but that's the position he played for us.

My list probably goes...
Davis
Negele
Roberts
Scoochie

Anyone before Davis is before my time.

I don't subscribe to the notion that NBA success or lack thereof has anything to do with a discussion like this. Two different games.

As much as it pains me to say this, Christian Laettner is one of the best college players of all-time. Kawhi Leonard isn't a better college player than Laettner simply because his NBA career will be far superior.
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  #133  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:35 PM
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Welcome to UD Jalen!
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  #134  
Old 05-09-2017, 02:02 PM
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I'll jump in too just so we can actually get two consecutive posts on topic. Welcome Jalen!!
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  #135  
Old 05-09-2017, 02:41 PM
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Getting back on topic , I'm not sure how you can call Anthony Corbitt, Noland Robinson, Norm Grevey, and Ray Springer "virtually no supporting cast." In the big wins over Notre Dame, Xavier twice, and Illinois Corbitt had 15, 22, 18, and 23 points, and had 18 against Arkansas. Springer had 13 against Notre Dame, 26 in the first Xavier win, 11 against Illinois, and 17 against Arkansas. Robinson had 15, 19, and 13 in the MCC Tournament wins, and 20 against Arkansas. We all know Norm. I would say that was a pretty good supporting cast.
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  #136  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:10 PM
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I am confused by all this virtually "no supporting cast" calls comments. All of those team had good players. Some teams were stronger than others. I think Johnny Davis played on a very, very strong team. The players with Hooper were pretty good players too.

If I had to rank great teams of UD, I would still put the Davis, Hooper and possibly Scoochie teams ahead of the Negele Knight team.

The team with Knight was as hot as anybody in college basketball for 1/2 of a season. They floundered in the first half of the year and badly the two years before with Donoher.

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  #137  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
Johnny Davis had no supporting cast? His lone NCAA year (freshman), he played alongside Donald Smith and had Mike Sylvester in the frontcourt, not to mention Allen Elijah and Joe Fisher. I agree he had little help in the two years that followed, but he "carried them" to marginally winning seasons. All that said, I agree he's the best pure point guard in UD history. Also, I never heard anything about Knight leading the charge against Donoher, who recruited him. But the boosters and administration were certainly ready for a change.
Soph and Junior years no supporting cast; obviously as a freshmen he had everything with Donald Smith, Mike Sylvester, etc..
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Getting back on topic , I'm not sure how you can call Anthony Corbitt, Noland Robinson, Norm Grevey, and Ray Springer "virtually no supporting cast." In the big wins over Notre Dame, Xavier twice, and Illinois Corbitt had 15, 22, 18, and 23 points, and had 18 against Arkansas. Springer had 13 against Notre Dame, 26 in the first Xavier win, 11 against Illinois, and 17 against Arkansas. Robinson had 15, 19, and 13 in the MCC Tournament wins, and 20 against Arkansas. We all know Norm. I would say that was a pretty good supporting cast.
I wasn't referring to Negele Knight when I said "virtually no supporting cast" - I was referring to Johnny Davis who AFTER his freshmen year, literally was the only notable player since Von Lehman, Smith and Sylvester had all graduated.

Negele Knight had 5 other seniors and that team basically did nothing for 3 years. Only in the second half of their senior year did they begin to live up to the expectations set when they were all freshmen.
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  #139  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Getting back on topic , I'm not sure how you can call Anthony Corbitt, Noland Robinson, Norm Grevey, and Ray Springer "virtually no supporting cast." In the big wins over Notre Dame, Xavier twice, and Illinois Corbitt had 15, 22, 18, and 23 points, and had 18 against Arkansas. Springer had 13 against Notre Dame, 26 in the first Xavier win, 11 against Illinois, and 17 against Arkansas. Robinson had 15, 19, and 13 in the MCC Tournament wins, and 20 against Arkansas. We all know Norm. I would say that was a pretty good supporting cast.
This is correct. Without NK's 5th year senior season, he would not even be in this discussion and that year 90 percent of the Flyers' minutes went to seniors. The only non-senior with any significant minutes, and those were not really that many was Alex Robertson.

Johnny Davis played on a great team his Freshman year and had the best freshman varsity season in the history of UD basketball. Looking back on what could've been, Johnny Davis might be in discussion for greatest Flyer ever had he returned for a senior season and gotten to play with with a junior Erv Giddings, Sophomore Jim Paxson, freshman Jack Zimmerman(who would've spent his freshman season as a SG), and sophomore Tony Wells. One thing I've noticed looking back on the rosters is that in no season did Johnny Davis play on a team with any depth.

In comparison NK played on teams with lots of depth compared to JD.

In the perception of history, both NK and JD came highly touted with great expectations from Detroit. One lived up to those expectations for all 3 of his seasons. The other, not until his 5th year at UD. So for a major part of one season, NK was one of the top 4 PGs in UD history, but cut out his 5th year senior season, he's an afterthought to JD, Scooch, Hooper, Roberts, Marshall, Zimmerman and probably Kevin Conrad.
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  #140  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
Johnny Davis had no supporting cast? His lone NCAA year (freshman), he played alongside Donald Smith and had Mike Sylvester in the frontcourt, not to mention Allen Elijah and Joe Fisher. I agree he had little help in the two years that followed, but he "carried them" to marginally winning seasons. All that said, I agree he's the best pure point guard in UD history. Also, I never heard anything about Knight leading the charge against Donoher, who recruited him. But the boosters and administration were certainly ready for a change.
Wow, talk about attack...I think everyone who knows anything about UD basketball in the 1960's and beyond; let's say the Don Donoher era to present - knows that 1973/74 was a memorable season led by Donald Smith, Mike Sylvester, John Von Lehman and others AS WELL AS freshmen sensation Johnny Davis. It's the NEXT 2 years after 73/74 I am referring to; the following years where UD went 13-13 twice IIRC - its THOSE 2 years he (JD) put the team on his back.

1989 UD administration thought the grass was greener and fired a HOF coach. Enough said. One only has to look at JOB and what became of UD basketball after that to see the truth. And any coach worth his salt could have taken those 6 seniors to the NCAA in 89/90; they were going to prove the problem wasn't them. There were plenty of rumors on campus that some of those seniors had given up on DD.
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  #141  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
1989 UD administration thought the grass was greener and fired a HOF coach. Enough said. One only has to look at JOB and what became of UD basketball after that to see the truth. And any coach worth his salt could have taken those 6 seniors to the NCAA in 89/90; they were going to prove the problem wasn't them. There were plenty of rumors on campus that some of those seniors had given up on DD.
I love Don Donoher like everybody else but I think it was definitely time to go at that point. He was certainly clouded by his own son being on the team and giving him minutes he did not deserve...probably a spot on the team he didn't deserve either. And if any coach could have gone to the NCAA that year why did Donoher struggle the year before? Not saying JOB was any good because I hated the hire then as i still do, but maybe it was more of a change was what was needed at the time.

Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
In the perception of history, both NK and JD came highly touted with great expectations from Detroit. One lived up to those expectations for all 3 of his seasons. The other, not until his 5th year at UD. So for a major part of one season, NK was one of the top 4 PGs in UD history, but cut out his 5th year senior season, he's an afterthought to JD, Scooch, Hooper, Roberts, Marshall, Zimmerman and probably Kevin Conrad.
Not sure I would say Negel didn't live up to his expectaions until his fifth year. His stats seem pretty good the other three years as well.
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  #142  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:15 PM
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Welcome to the Flyer family Jalen!

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  #143  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
I love Don Donoher like everybody else but I think it was definitely time to go at that point. He was certainly clouded by his own son being on the team and giving him minutes he did not deserve...probably a spot on the team he didn't deserve either. And if any coach could have gone to the NCAA that year why did Donoher struggle the year before? Not saying JOB was any good because I hated the hire then as i still do, but maybe it was more of a change was what was needed at the time.



Not sure I would say Negel didn't live up to his expectaions until his fifth year. His stats seem pretty good the other three years as well.
Yeah, his stats were good but for some reason that didn't translate to living up to expectations back then. But his senior season is what made him stand out from the pack.

But I totally agree with you on DD, it was time to go another direction, fair or not. And I doubt he would've had the success in 1989-1990 that JOB had because the key to that success was the uptempo and 3 point game that was polar opposite of DD's style.
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  #144  
Old 05-09-2017, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
I love Don Donoher like everybody else but I think it was definitely time to go at that point. He was certainly clouded by his own son being on the team and giving him minutes he did not deserve...probably a spot on the team he didn't deserve either. And if any coach could have gone to the NCAA that year why did Donoher struggle the year before? Not saying JOB was any good because I hated the hire then as i still do, but maybe it was more of a change was what was needed at the time.
Something else that I believe. I don't think it's a coincidence that Donoher's teams started faltering after the addition of the shot clock. It was still an eternity at 45 seconds when first introduced in 1986. I cannot imagine Donoher having success in 1994 when it was lowered to 35 seconds. His MO was patience. Spending whatever amount of time it took to find the best shot possible. In 1984, there were possessions where they could take 60 seconds just trying to get the ball into Velvet. And Donoher was a master of going into a stall when he felt it was called for. I remember a game where the Flyers built close to a 10 point lead in the first half but Mike Kanieski got hurt and he basically went into a stall for the rest of the game and held on for the win.

I think Donoher was a great coach for the rules of his time. I just don't believe that he could've transformed himself as a coach to a faster game brought on by rule changes. It was a type of game that he never learned as a player, assistant or as coach. Most coaches become obsolete if they hang around long enough. I think that was the case with him.

I think it'll be very interesting to see if we can find any of Donoher's on court basketball style in AG. Obviously it's not going to be that obvious because if he incorporates that much of Donoher in today's game, we will not compete.

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Old 05-09-2017, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Something else that I believe. I don't think it's a coincidence that Donoher's teams started faltering after the addition of the shot clock. It was still an eternity at 45 seconds when first introduced in 1986. I cannot imagine Donoher having success in 1994 when it was lowered to 35 seconds. His MO was patience. Spending whatever amount of time it took to find the best shot possible. In 1985, there were possessions where they could take 60 seconds just trying to get the ball into Velvet. And Donoher was a master of going into a stall when he felt it was called for. I remember a game where the Flyers built close to a 10 point lead in the first half but Mike Kanieski got hurt and he basically went into a stall for the rest of the game and held on for the win.

I think Donoher was a great coach for the rules of his time. I just don't believe that he could've transformed himself as a coach to a faster game brought on by rule changes. It was a type of game that he never learned as a player, assistant or as coach. Most coaches become obsolete if they hang around long enough. I think that was the case with him.
Very well stated, Smitty. I always said there were three changes in the game that Coach Donoher could not adjust to:

1. The three-point shot; he couldn't defend it, as witnessed by the young man from Evansville who lit us up at the arena for nearly 60 points. He couldn't effectively run his offense for three point shot either. So he couldn't defend it and he couldn't shoot it.

2. The shot clock - he could not run his offense within the constraint of the shot clock...and a methodical offense was his strong point.

3. The game was beginning to be played above the rim, not below it.
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
I wasn't referring to Negele Knight when I said "virtually no supporting cast" - I was referring to Johnny Davis who AFTER his freshmen year, literally was the only notable player since Von Lehman, Smith and Sylvester had all graduated.

Negele Knight had 5 other seniors and that team basically did nothing for 3 years. Only in the second half of their senior year did they begin to live up to the expectations set when they were all freshmen.
Just curious, is it your memory or do you remember things about Von Lehman that I don't? You have twice now mentioned him in the same breath as big loss with Smitty and Sly yet you've left of Elijah who was much more accomplished and Fisher who was at least senior Von Lehman's equal as a junior. Other than that I agree with you on Knight vs JD comparisons.
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
I wasn't referring to Negele Knight when I said "virtually no supporting cast" - I was referring to Johnny Davis who AFTER his freshmen year, literally was the only noeferring to Lowdtable player since Von Lehman, Smith and Sylvester had all graduated.
I understand that. I was referring to Lowd&ProUD"s comments about Negele's supporting cast.
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
1. The three-point shot; he couldn't defend it, as witnessed by the young man from Evansville who lit us up at the arena for nearly 60 points. He couldn't effectively run his offense for three point shot either. So he couldn't defend it and he couldn't shoot it.
I believe it was 65 points by Scott Haffner. Although I believe the following year Scott Schreffler from Evansville also torched us for somewhere in the upper 40's.
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
Very well stated, Smitty. I always said there were three changes in the game that Coach Donoher could not adjust to:

1. The three-point shot; he couldn't defend it, as witnessed by the young man from Evansville who lit us up at the arena for nearly 60 points. He couldn't effectively run his offense for three point shot either. So he couldn't defend it and he couldn't shoot it.

2. The shot clock - he could not run his offense within the constraint of the shot clock...and a methodical offense was his strong point.

3. The game was beginning to be played above the rim, not below it.
The lack of execution of the 3 point shot was not totally a result of his coaching IMO. Prior to it being incorporated into the college game, players like Donald Smith weren't as sought after. Less competition to recruit guys with long range accuracy. Once the 3 point shot became a partial equalizer to the big man, the competition for those players became more fierce and UD got shut out more often than not.
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:44 PM
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To clarify: I never said that Negele played with "virtually no supporting cast". I simply assumed another poster was referring to Negele when I saw a similar comment because ... to me ... the talent around Negele pales to what Scoochie and JD had. (Apologies for only remembering JD with THE team.)

Let's not try to revise history and act like Negele was chopped liver before he was a senior. To say he would have been an afterthought without his senior season is first of all, ridiculous. Secondly ... ummm ... he DID have that senior season, even if it was under JOB and even if he doesn't bleed blue & red to this day like the rest of us.

Negele played really well before that senior season and it went mostly unnoticed IMO. Thought so at the time and I still think so.

NK played with a couple bigs who continually botched would-be assists. Memory isn't good enough to say whether it was more hands-of-stone or poor anticipation on their part, but it frustrated the crap outta me.

Is it just me, or is there some angst towards Negele that isn't there for other Flyer greats?
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  #151  
Old 05-09-2017, 07:02 PM
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I thought this thread was about Jalen Crutcher???????
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  #152  
Old 05-09-2017, 07:27 PM
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Jim Paxson was on Davis' last team at UD. He says hello.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LI Flyer View Post
I thought this thread was about Jalen Crutcher???????
Nope. It appears to be a history lesson.
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  #154  
Old 05-09-2017, 10:20 PM
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Great article on how Crutcher ended up a Flyer from the Memphis paper. Spoiler: he committed while eating bacon.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/stor...ton/314606001/
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:35 PM
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In the Atlanta Gauntlet tournament Jalen shot 65%...from behind the arc. I guess that's pretty good.

https://basketball.exposureevents.co...050&output=pdf

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Old 05-09-2017, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
In the Atlanta Gauntlet tournament Jalen shot 65%...from behind the arc. I guess that's pretty good.

https://basketball.exposureevents.co...050&output=pdf
Wow, impressive even if he was never guarded the entire tourney.!
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:39 PM
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“I like to play especially in AAU because there’s a lot of ranked people,” Crutcher said. “They’re real good, so I try to show them they’re not that good. So I play man-to-man 94 feet, and I guess that’s what (Dayton) liked about me.”

No cow dung. What's not to like about that attitude.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:57 PM
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Did Matt McCall try to get him to go to UMass? Haven't been able to find anything that he kept recruiting him after leaving UTC
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Did Matt McCall try to get him to go to UMass? Haven't been able to find anything that he kept recruiting him after leaving UTC
The weird thing about Crutcher's recruitment is that as far as I can tell his first three offers were actually UT-Chatanooga, Umass, and Cal-Bakersfield. So McCall sells Crutcher on choosing Chattanooga over Umass, but then a few months later McCall decides that he himself would prefer Umass over Chattanooga once the opportunity presented itself. If that's how it happened, pretty difficult for McCall to spin it, save face, and try to take Crutcher with him after making that move. Particularly if Crutcher had already previously decided against Umass.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
“I like to play especially in AAU because there’s a lot of ranked people,” Crutcher said. “They’re real good, so I try to show them they’re not that good. So I play man-to-man 94 feet, and I guess that’s what (Dayton) liked about me.”

No cow dung. What's not to like about that attitude.
Has some Kyle Davis style defensive attitude and cockiness....
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
The weird thing about Crutcher's recruitment is that as far as I can tell his first three offers were actually UT-Chatanooga, Umass, and Cal-Bakersfield. So McCall sells Crutcher on choosing Chattanooga over Umass, but then a few months later McCall decides that he himself would prefer Umass over Chattanooga once the opportunity presented itself. If that's how it happened, pretty difficult for McCall to spin it, save face, and try to take Crutcher with him after making that move. Particularly if Crutcher had already previously decided against Umass.
But we were told repeatedly that our recruits wanted the coach, not the University, so why wouldn't he want to follow McCall to UMass?
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Old 05-10-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
But we were told repeatedly that our recruits wanted the coach, not the University, so why wouldn't he want to follow McCall to UMass?
Maybe McCall didn't recruit him to UMass. Maybe there wasn't a PG spot open. Maybe he didn't like what UMass had to offer before McCall going there. Maybe part of his release was he was not allowed to go to UMass. Maybe McCall thought there were better players to recruit to UMass. Maybe he felt burned by McCall for leaving after recruiting him. Should I go on with more possible reasons to counter your sarcasm?

95 times out of a 100 the first thing a kid mentions when he commits to a school is the coaching staff and their relationship with the coaches and team. Then the school, playing time, ect.

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Old 05-10-2017, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Maybe McCall didn't recruit him to UMass. Maybe there wasn't a PG spot open. Maybe he didn't like what UMass had to offer before McCall going there. Maybe part of his release was he was not allowed to go to UMass. Maybe McCall thought there were better players to recruit to UMass. Maybe he felt burned by McCall for leaving after recruiting him. Should I go on with more possible reasons to counter your sarcasm?

95 times out of a 100 the first thing a kid mentions when he commits to a school is the coaching staff and their relationship with the coaches and team. Then the school, playing time, ect.
And in this case even Crutcher talked about how important the coaches were in his committing to UT-Chat. However, once the coaches left he wanted to stay, but it was because of the new coaches and their playing style that he left. Then he mentioned CAG's playing style being a big reason he committed here.

So yes...coaches matter.

Maybe McCall didn't recruit him because it sets a bad precedent to recruit your former recruits after you leave.
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Old 05-10-2017, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
But we were told repeatedly that our recruits wanted the coach, not the University, so why wouldn't he want to follow McCall to UMass?
Maybe his release from UTC did not allow it?
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I find it very difficult to compare players of different eras.

I barely remember Hooper, but I saw a bit of Davis, Knight and Smith.

Johnny played when the dunk was illegal, players spent more time on the court than the weight room and sports science is nowhere close to today. Scouting was not as sophisticated then either.

The only way to compare in my opinion is the impact they had on their teams. Johnny had an excellent class to go with him and he turned out to be the spark plug. I think Scoochie benefited from solid teammates as well. Negele had solid teammates but probably played on the weakest overall team.

All three had major impact even though I would put an asterisk next to Knight. I knew he had injuries and I did hear through the grapevine about that class quitting on Donoher.
Don't know why no one has mentioned NK had 2/3 of one great season as a senior. The rest, meh...
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  #166  
Old 05-10-2017, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
And in this case even Crutcher talked about how important the coaches were in his committing to UT-Chat. However, once the coaches left he wanted to stay, but it was because of the new coaches and their playing style that he left. Then he mentioned CAG's playing style being a big reason he committed here.

So yes...coaches matter.

Maybe McCall didn't recruit him because it sets a bad precedent to recruit your former recruits after you leave.
Could be. But I think it's more likely that McCall gave Crutcher assurances he was not taking any other job. When he did take another job, it's understandable that the relationship was damaged beyond repair.
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Great article on how Crutcher ended up a Flyer from the Memphis paper. Spoiler: he committed while eating bacon.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/stor...ton/314606001/
Either you like bacon, or your wrong!!
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  #168  
Old 05-10-2017, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Maybe McCall didn't recruit him to UMass. Maybe there wasn't a PG spot open. Maybe he didn't like what UMass had to offer before McCall going there. Maybe part of his release was he was not allowed to go to UMass. Maybe McCall thought there were better players to recruit to UMass. Maybe he felt burned by McCall for leaving after recruiting him. Should I go on with more possible reasons to counter your sarcasm?

95 times out of a 100 the first thing a kid mentions when he commits to a school is the coaching staff and their relationship with the coaches and team. Then the school, playing time, ect.
I don't need any reasons, thanks though. My sarcasm was directed at everyone who said MW was going to Indiana, as well as all the other recruits who would leave because they committed to a coach and not to a University. Maybe some short-term memories are not what they used to be...
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  #169  
Old 05-10-2017, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
I don't need any reasons, thanks though. My sarcasm was directed at everyone who said MW was going to Indiana, as well as all the other recruits who would leave because they committed to a coach and not to a University. Maybe some short-term memories are not what they used to be...
I apologize, I was in a mood this morning!
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  #170  
Old 05-10-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Don't know why no one has mentioned NK had 2/3 of one great season as a senior. The rest, meh...
Not so sure about that. He is the 8th all time leading scorer with 1806 points, and he averaged 4.3, 4.9, 5.8, and 6.8 assists in his career. The most assists Scoochie ever averaged was 4.5, and obviously didn't have nearly as many points. I wouldn't call Negele's first three seasons of 7.1/4.3, 14.8/4.9, and 13.9/5.8 meh. Of course his final year of 22.8/6.8 was extraordinary.
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  #171  
Old 05-10-2017, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
I apologize, I was in a mood this morning!
No worries. I should have put a sarcastic smiley next to my original post.
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  #172  
Old 05-10-2017, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Not so sure about that. He is the 8th all time leading scorer with 1806 points, and he averaged 4.3, 4.9, 5.8, and 6.8 assists in his career. The most assists Scoochie ever averaged was 4.5, and obviously didn't have nearly as many points. I wouldn't call Negele's first three seasons of 7.1/4.3, 14.8/4.9, and 13.9/5.8 meh. Of course his final year of 22.8/6.8 was extraordinary.
Collectively speaking my comment is a little over the top based on his stats.. My comment was influenced strongly by my opinion that Scoochie was a better, more valuable college pg than Negele.
But yeah, you're right, thanks for retrieving the stats. Actually Knight is one of my favorites. I rate him 3rd behind 1) JD 2a) Scoochie 2b) Bobby Joe H. 3) Negele Knight.
The thing is that Scoochie was a win-facilitator. Stats will never bear out how valuable and key in critical wins his performances were. Negele was never The Man like that that I recall before his senior year.
Negele couldn't hang with Scoochie around the goal. Outside, yes he was a better shooter. A really good handle plus he played in the era of hand-checks. I would still take Scoochie's handle and overall ball-handling skills. Scoochie made a mark by lifting his team to where they got for three of his four seasons. So lifetime achievement goes to Scoochie too.
I think Negele was a slightly better passer but it didn't seem to show up in the clutch like Scoochie's​ crunch-time passing. Negele had an awesome stretch run his senior year. Take that away and he's not in the discussion as Scoochie's peer. Scoochie facilitated wins for practically the duration of his time here.

Last edited by FLYER5; 05-11-2017 at 12:35 PM.. Reason: Misspelled Negele's name a bunch of times
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  #173  
Old 05-11-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Collectively speaking my comment is a little over the top based on his stats.. My comment was influenced strongly by my opinion that Scoochie was a better, more valuable college pg than Negelle.
But yeah, you're right, thanks for retrieving the stats. Actually Knight is one of my favorites. I rate him 3rd behind 1) JD 2a) Scoochie 2b) Bobby Joe H. 3) Negelle Knight.
The thing is that Scoochie was a win-facilitator. Stats will never bear out how valuable and key in critical wins his performances were. Negelle was never The Man like that that I recall before his senior year.
Negelle couldn't hang with Scoochie around the goal. Outside, yes he was a better shooter. A really good handle plus he played in the era of hand-checks. I would still take Scoochie's handle and overall ball-handling skills. Scoochie made a mark by lifting his team to where they got for three of his four seasons. So lifetime achievement goes to Scoochie too.
I think Negelle was a slightly better passer but it didn't seem to show up in the clutch like Scoochie's​ crunch-time passing. Negelle had an awesome stretch run his senior year. Take that away and he's not in the discussion as Scoochie's peer. Scoochie facilitated wins for practically the duration of his time here.
Again I have to disagree about Negele not being in the discussion as Scoochie's peer prior to his senior year. I love Scoochie and have known him personally since his days at Putnam Science Academy, but Negele was as good and better from a skill perspective. Again I would give you the tangibles for Scoochie but I don't think he would win any other categories against Negele, even before his senior year. I'm not sure if its the time lapse or if its because of the rumors about him wanting Donoher out but I feel like some on this board are either forgetting or want to downplay just how good Negele was. I know you are talking about prior to his senior year but I can tell you that in his senior year he was the best player on the court in almost every game he played and that included Illinios with Kendall Gill and Marcus Liberty and Arkansas with Todd Day and Lee Mayberry in the NCAA Tourney.
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  #174  
Old 05-11-2017, 12:32 PM
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It's a solid debate. It always will be. Classic apples-to-oranges comparison. The players couldn't be more different. Let's enter them in the Preakness and we'll see who's better at a mile-and-three-sixteenths...?
Thanks for the correct spelling of his name. I don't like to misspell a player's name. Especially one of the all-time greats.

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  #175  
Old 05-11-2017, 01:21 PM
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Man this is some great stuff about Jalen Crutcher's commitment! Thanks for all of the pertinent information.
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  #176  
Old 05-11-2017, 02:09 PM
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Jalen finished his high school classes yesterday.

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I'm about to work like I never worked before when I get to Dayton ��������

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Why wait ? Come ready

JALEN CRUTCHER 2️⃣‏ @Jalen_NoRose1 3h3 hours ago
I leave in 14 more days
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  #177  
Old 05-11-2017, 03:39 PM
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I am liking Jalen Crutcher more and more every day. During Anthony Grant's conversation with Larry Hansgen, Anthony kept talking about a "wonderful young man from a wonderful family." He may not end up being Johnny Davis, Negele Night, or Schoochie Smith, but if he carries himself up to his potential in the classroom and the court, then I will be thoroughly pleased with Jalen as a Flyer.
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DallasFlyer View Post
Spoiler: he committed while eating bacon.

Thankfully not Dunkin Donuts.
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