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  #1  
Old 05-17-2017, 12:24 AM
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Tough Coaching Transitions

This is isn't as interesting as the Obi commit thread, but an interesting article and pic on the front page of a familiar face and a tidbit about his past team.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...k-ewing-others
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:00 AM
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Actually, it might be easier for AM to get his new team to commit to defense, now that 4 guys who believed they're NBA-ready are no longer on the roster. I'm guessing self-confidence wasn't lacking in that group.

And, do you suppose that they didn't mention our new CAG because they think his job of following AM isn't as hard as AM's job following TC? Or, is it just because they refuse to recognize that a place like UD exists? Or, could it be that they know our coach will have fans with realistic expectations? Just wondering.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:18 AM
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it took Archie (and Sean at Xavier) half way through their 3rd season before the lights went on. A lot of kids don't stay in the program that long.
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:30 AM
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I often thought when Archie left I would be interested in rooting him on in his new locale.

I am finding that nothing could be further from the truth. Don't care even a tiny bit about him or Indiana or how Indiana will face adversity under Archie.

Never liked Indiana basketball and him going there hasn't changed that one bit. Indiana and their fans are like the St. Louis Cardinals of baseball and their fans... they are entitled, spoiled and act like they are God's gift to the sport and will be more than happy to explain why they are allowed to act this way. So whatever. Keep on keepin' on.
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:42 AM
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People don't realize no one is entitled. It's about the coach. Making a final 4 (let alone winning the national championship) is hard. It takes skill and luck.

Indiana hasn't been a national player since RMK. He is not coming back. However, their AD made it clear the expectations have NOT changed. They expect final 4 AND a national championship.

I don't know whether Archie will succeed. Think he is a better coach but not near the recruiter Sean is. Sean has never made a final 4.

That being said I think he had taken Dayton as far as he could. I don't know whether Anthony or anyone else can take it farther. Archie does not surround himself with future coaches.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:00 AM
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I liked how AM went after young recruits ... knowing he would get the second tier players at mid major UD ... he went after guys with a chip on their shoulder ... I like when the above ESPN article mentioned ...

"Miller didn't have the elite recruits he might attract to Bloomington, but he had some dogs at Dayton, meet-me-in-the-alley players who anchored an Elite Eight run in 2014 that kicked off four consecutive NCAA tournament appearances. When you played Dayton under Miller, you knew the Flyers were coming to fight."

Will AG do the same in recruiting?
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:40 AM
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Two things:

First I believe AG will recruit top players from across the country, not just 3 star recruits. Course that will depend on how well he and staff do during this season.

Second: I truly believe Archie left for THE job too soon. His record was not better than Tom Crean's. Archie is good but until I see what he can do with more talent I will take a wait and see attitude. Archie needed to prove he could do it with a new class of players at UD. Could be wrong but he went from a no pressure job to a high pressure one.
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  #8  
Old 05-17-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post

Second: I truly believe Archie left for THE job too soon. His record was not better than Tom Crean's. Archie is good but until I see what he can do with more talent I will take a wait and see attitude. Archie needed to prove he could do it with a new class of players at UD. Could be wrong but he went from a no pressure job to a high pressure one.
This is the reason it was the right time for him to take the job. He got the job he wanted without proving he could do it with another class of players at UD. If he failed the second time at UD, he may not have gotten that job. If he succeeded with a second class of players at UD, my feeling about him would be different. After he left, I would have started the GoFundMe for his statue.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:52 AM
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"Could be wrong but he went from a no pressure job to a high pressure one."

LOL!

AM is a smart talented young coach ... but he is over his head with the political, social, communication, interpersonal skills needed at IU. Knowing basketball inside and out will not keep him at IU.

Since he is a smart guy .. he will eventually get it ... but he is in for a rocky road!!!
Perhaps now he will get a "coach" to coach him on how to succeed at IU!!!
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:18 PM
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Wow...a whole lot of pettiness toward a coach who took us places we've not seen in 50 years.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by marco red eagle View Post
Perhaps now he will get a "coach" to coach him on how to succeed at IU!!!
Could it be that the person you are referring to is in the fold already: John Miller?
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:57 PM
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Archie needs time at IU. Hopefully he will get the time but it isn't up to the AD, it's the fanbase. Had an IU alum who goes to the games (in his 60s) tell me that IU wasn't tolerant. He will need to win immediately.

I was sad to see him leave but I wish him luck.
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Wow...a whole lot of pettiness toward a coach who took us places we've not seen in 50 years.
Pettiness or realistic knowledge that AM is starting in a position where a large part of the fan base feel that an Indiana person should be their head coach and not Archie and he has to prove that he can win big sooner rather than later

Yes he did good things at UD but it works both ways as it was UD who took the chance to hire him as an unknown so he could achieve his dream. I don't wish him ill but I also don't owe him any loyalty.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
Pettiness or realistic knowledge that AM is starting in a position where a large part of the fan base feel that an Indiana person should be their head coach and not Archie and he has to prove that he can win big sooner rather than later

Yes he did good things at UD but it works both ways as it was UD who took the chance to hire him as an unknown so he could achieve his dream. I don't wish him ill but I also don't owe him any loyalty.
This...more pettiness (your second para). AM isn't asking for your loyalty yet you (and others) want the record to reflect that you no longer are loyal?

I was **** sure glad he was my coach when he was at UD! And I'm glad AG is my coach now!

I thought OP, BG, and Archie all met/exceeded expectations given the circumstances at the time. But I'm a UD alum/STH and my loyalty is to my school/team/coach...next man up (unless it's JOB)!
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
Indiana hasn't been a national player since RMK. He is not coming back. However, their AD made it clear the expectations have NOT changed. They expect final 4 AND a national championship.

That being said I think he had taken Dayton as far as he could. I don't know whether Anthony or anyone else can take it farther. Archie does not surround himself with future coaches.
Yes, the expectations are high, but he will be king in Indiana if he succeeds, which I think he will.

I think he could have taken Dayton farther over time, it takes time to build a program to be stronger.

The right coach can take UD farther.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
This...more pettiness (your second para). AM isn't asking for your loyalty yet you (and others) want the record to reflect that you no longer are loyal?
How is this petty? Nobody thinks Archie is asking for our loyalty, but I bet you money there will be a lot of threads about how he's doing. I felt more loyalty to Gregory even though he had taken us as far as he was capable than I do to Archie... because I felt like Gregory really loved being here.

Archie helped us, we helped Archie, the end. I don't feel like it's being petty to state one's feelings on the subject. Not everything always has to be sunbeams and lollipops.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:35 PM
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Archie never really loved us the way that we loved him. But you know what? We never really loved him. He wasn't a lovable guy. We loved the parties he was able to take us to and the attention it garnered. We both have new interests. If AG is the one for us, it won't matter how Archie ends up.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Wow...a whole lot of pettiness toward a coach who took us places we've not seen in 50 years.

Nope, not pettiness in my opinion. He is no longer here so I just don't care how he does and I don't think he deserves a thread on the UD basketball board. How he does at IU is off topic, at best.
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer View Post
Nope, not pettiness in my opinion. He is no longer here so I just don't care how he does and I don't think he deserves a thread on the UD basketball board. How he does at IU is off topic, at best.
You sound like you feel scorned. There are a lot of threads on this board. You don't have to read one that seems to irritate you. There have been many coaches leave the program. He just happens to be one of the better.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:35 PM
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Nope, not scorned at all. I liked him, if he is successful there good for him. Just don't feel like IU basketball deserves a thread on the UD board.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:21 PM
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There was a paragraph about the Flyers in the article, therefore I would not consider the article to be off topic.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:33 PM
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No problem Northwest, your opinion is as valid as mine and I respect the opinion of all. I'm not trying to be negative, as has been pointed out I certainly don't have to read the thread.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer View Post
Nope, not scorned at all. I liked him, if he is successful there good for him. Just don't feel like IU basketball deserves a thread on the UD board.
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OK, I can understand that. I don't agree. He will always be someone I root for unless he is playing my Flyers. I don't expect to see that unless our paths cross in a tournament.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:20 PM
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Redirecting...does anyone else think like I do that Patrick Ewing will be a total disaster at Georgetown?

He has no college coaching experience whatsoever. Yes, he has name recognition but that only goes so far. Posters on here worried about UD's ability to fire AG if things don't go well. How long would GTown stick with a legend? I think we're going to find out...
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Wow...a whole lot of pettiness toward a coach who took us places we've not seen in 50 years.
You apparently don['t know or understand the difference between bitterness and facts.

His record at Dayton was not better than Tom Creans. Archie is a good coach but to take on IU at this stage in his career is a bit premature in my opinion.

As was pointed out in an article regarding coaching changes and AM in particular it was duly noted that Archie was able to achieve his players to buy into his defensive schemes. They noted that at IU you have NBA talent who feel they are ready for the NBA and will be a lot harder to sell them on full out defense. Time will tell, but AM was successful with the talent at UD, will he be as successful with more talented players at IU; we'll see. Jury is out.

Just ask Shaka Smart how things are going at Texas
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Redirecting...does anyone else think like I do that Patrick Ewing will be a total disaster at Georgetown?

He has no college coaching experience whatsoever. Yes, he has name recognition but that only goes so far. Posters on here worried about UD's ability to fire AG if things don't go well. How long would GTown stick with a legend? I think we're going to find out...
Patrick is a gamble, a huge one with a big upside. Name recognition. It was becoming apparent that no one wanted to take on the Thompson legacy at Georgetown.

Huge task, wish him well as I do Archie, but my opinion does not change on Archie till I see how he handles the more talented players and the rabid fan base. My IU fan is not ecstatic about the hire but is willing to support him....short term.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Redirecting...does anyone else think like I do that Patrick Ewing will be a total disaster at Georgetown?

He has no college coaching experience whatsoever. Yes, he has name recognition but that only goes so far. Posters on here worried about UD's ability to fire AG if things don't go well. How long would GTown stick with a legend? I think we're going to find out...
This will be interesting to watch from afar.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
You apparently don['t know or understand the difference between bitterness and facts.

His record at Dayton was not better than Tom Creans. Archie is a good coach but to take on IU at this stage in his career is a bit premature in my opinion.

As was pointed out in an article regarding coaching changes and AM in particular it was duly noted that Archie was able to achieve his players to buy into his defensive schemes. They noted that at IU you have NBA talent who feel they are ready for the NBA and will be a lot harder to sell them on full out defense. Time will tell, but AM was successful with the talent at UD, will he be as successful with more talented players at IU; we'll see. Jury is out.

Just ask Shaka Smart how things are going at Texas
You are a bag of contradictions. You "OPINE" that AM was premature to take the IU job, then state that "time will tell" and "jury is out".

And where are the facts? His record vs Crean? How does that translate into any success he will achieve? I'll answer that: it doesn't.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
You are a bag of contradictions. You "OPINE" that AM was premature to take the IU job, then state that "time will tell" and "jury is out".

And where are the facts? His record vs Crean? How does that translate into any success he will achieve? I'll answer that: it doesn't.
AM is more than ready to take the IU job....No written rule you need to have a stepping stone of jobs to get the dream/destination job. Again, many fail to see what they witnessed by AM was beyond belief, at least imho, based on the circumstances that hit him seemingly every year with short benches, lack of skilled players offensively,lack of size, injuries, suspensions, death of SM, etc. etc.....

The only thing that would have been icing on the cake and probably made even more people appreciate his tremendous accomplishments would have been a W over Wichita State and that was a game lost basically by around 7 total points being scored by them thru-out the game in less than than 3 seconds (3 at end of thehalf, terrible foul called on KD for 2 FT's as the shot clock was sounding, and a 4 step layup by their big man at the shot clock buzzer)......

Win THAT game and probably no way they beat Kentucky or even play them as well as WSU played them due to lack of size..
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
You are a bag of contradictions. You "OPINE" that AM was premature to take the IU job, then state that "time will tell" and "jury is out".

And where are the facts? His record vs Crean? How does that translate into any success he will achieve? I'll answer that: it doesn't.
Its quite simple if you can read. In my opinion I feel that Archie left too soon, don't know that he is ready for the IU fans and expectations. Someone stated it was time to take the job because it opened when it did, well true but is it a job he can sustain. Getting the job of his dreams and keeping it are two different animals. Again ask Shaka Smart how its going down in Texas.

I've stated Archie is a good coach but being a good coach may not be good enough for IU. AM taught good players how to play defense, well the question will be can he do the same with more talented players who think they are NBA ready. Archie vs Crean, are you serious, how will that translate into his success. You don't understand the passion and expectations at IU. They are not going to give him a honeymoon, they will expect results NCAA deep run and final four right out of the gate. They are hungry for the BK era to return and feel entitled.

So I am not giving AM a pass just because some feel he is one of the top upcoming coaches, he will have to prove it with top talent. Coaching 3 stars recruits/players is different from 4/5 stars. I could be wrong that is why the wait and see. We know he has the pedigree but is he ready for IU. Sean has yet to sniff the final four and their are rumblings out in Arizona.

I am willing to let it play out as it did for BG and Shaka Smart, but so far no cigar for either one. Archie may be different, time will tell.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
AM is more than ready to take the IU job....No written rule you need to have a stepping stone of jobs to get the dream/destination job. Again, many fail to see what they witnessed by AM was beyond belief, at least imho, based on the circumstances that hit him seemingly every year with short benches, lack of skilled players offensively,lack of size, injuries, suspensions, death of SM, etc. etc.....

The only thing that would have been icing on the cake and probably made even more people appreciate his tremendous accomplishments would have been a W over Wichita State and that was a game lost basically by around 7 total points being scored by them thru-out the game in less than than 3 seconds (3 at end of thehalf, terrible foul called on KD for 2 FT's as the shot clock was sounding, and a 4 step layup by their big man at the shot clock buzzer)......

Win THAT game and probably no way they beat Kentucky or even play them as well as WSU played them due to lack of size..
Again being more than ready to TAKE the IU job and sustaining that job is two different animals. Yes he earned his wings so to speak but can he continue to fly. That is where my question is. BG was ready, Shaka Smart was ready, neither of them have hit their mark. SS is still on the job so maybe he can still turn it around.

And where did I say that a candidate needed several stepping stones, geesh some people put words where they weren't any.

I'm not against AM or his success. I want to see both BG and AM succeed, it makes our program look that much better. There were a lot of expectations from MU fans that BG was the guy to take TI place at MU, they aren't feeling that way now.

Many posters here weren't too excited about the hire of AG. My gut feeling is AG will surpass BG and AMs success. Ok now I'll take off my red and blue glasses.

Its why the play/coach the games. It don't matter what you've done it the past, its what you do NOW. Let the games and coaching begin.

I'll follow AM like I have/do BG and SS.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:29 PM
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There is nothing wrong with being ambitious. Frankly, BG and AM were both MORE ambitious than the university. The university has to start thinking more like a championship organization. UD is getting there thanks to the ambition of these coaches

If you think you are good and top notch, then you want to be where the best are. I can't fault either coach.

If AG does not talk about winning A10 championships, sweet 16s, Final Fours and championship games, I will be disappointed. I expect him to drive the team and university towards those goals.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
to take on IU at this stage in his career is a bit premature in my opinion
Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Again being more than ready to TAKE the IU job and sustaining that job is two different animals
Sooooo, which is it?

TAKE ON the job or SUSTAIN IT?
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Again being more than ready to TAKE the IU job and sustaining that job is two different animals. Yes he earned his wings so to speak but can he continue to fly. That is where my question is. BG was ready, Shaka Smart was ready, neither of them have hit their mark. SS is still on the job so maybe he can still turn it around.

And where did I say that a candidate needed several stepping stones, geesh some people put words where they weren't any.

I'm not against AM or his success. I want to see both BG and AM succeed, it makes our program look that much better. There were a lot of expectations from MU fans that BG was the guy to take TI place at MU, they aren't feeling that way now.

Many posters here weren't too excited about the hire of AG. My gut feeling is AG will surpass BG and AMs success. Ok now I'll take off my red and blue glasses.

Its why the play/coach the games. It don't matter what you've done it the past, its what you do NOW. Let the games and coaching begin.

I'll follow AM like I have/do BG and SS.
You're all over the place here. Not ready, more than ready, no guaranteed success, etc. Which is it cause I feel like the Aflac duck here in the Yogi Berra commercials.Look, nobody is guaranteed success not named Urban Meyer, Nick saban, Bill Self, Coach K, and maybe a couple others but you don't get more prepared than "being more than ready" (in your words). You are simply NOT, imho, giving AM the credit and success here at UD under unfortunate extreme scenarios almost every year. The guy takes no prisoners. the guy is a bulldog and once he can get better players and bigger players then watch out....

Where and how exactly was BG ready to take a job bigger than UD? The guy couldn't do better than .500 in the A10. Couldn't wait to run him out of town from a coaching standpoint as the program could NOT get over the hump and players were not developing properly.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Sooooo, which is it?

TAKE ON the job or SUSTAIN IT?
Guess you can't read between the lines. I said it was a bit premature as I do not feel he is ready for the IU rabid fan base who will give him a short leash. So my main point which I apparently have to spell out in English is that I don't feel he is ready for the long haul. To take the job as I said is one thing but to sustain it is another. He got the job and if that is all he was after is to put IU on his resume then well fine he did that. But to me it is more important to be ready to take the team to the promised land and that is where I have my concerns.

As bleacher reports put it; to train the dogs at UD to play defense and win games with lesser talent and short bench is one thing. To get players who may be one and done to buy into all that defense (when not needed in the NBA) will be an entirely different challange.

Tom Crean could not get the players to play defense and it hurt their wins losses. Now along comes Archie a top up and coming young coach who is not an alum of IU who is going to try and install the same defense that was so successful at UD.....lots of luck with that. Even his brother Sean had more success getting his X players to play his style (defense) than the one and done NBA types at AU.

When I see a coach, one I'm loyal to take on a new job I want them to succeed not just get the job and get the pink slip a few years later. That is why I feel his taking the job is a bit premature in his young career. As I stated, he will not get a honeymoon at IU. My IU friend is pretty much representative of IU fans. First they wanted a IU grad, didn't get it so now they have to hope those who chose Archie did so wisely, otherwise the catcalls will start, the seat will get warmer and so forth.

So the difference between me and some on here is that I am looking at the bigger picture, getting the job is fine but keeping it is prime. That is why I will follow him and wish him well but reserve judgement till I see if he can deliver to IU fans what he was able to deliver to UD fans. Ergo the jury is out.

If his dream was to get the IU job period, accomplished. If his dream is to be the next BK (which is where is success or failure will be measured) then the future needs to be played out. Remember short leash, no honeymoon.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
You're all over the place here. Not ready, more than ready, no guaranteed success, etc. Which is it cause I feel like the Aflac duck here in the Yogi Berra commercials.Look, nobody is guaranteed success not named Urban Meyer, Nick saban, Bill Self, Coach K, and maybe a couple others but you don't get more prepared than "being more than ready" (in your words). You are simply NOT, imho, giving AM the credit and success here at UD under unfortunate extreme scenarios almost every year. The guy takes no prisoners. the guy is a bulldog and once he can get better players and bigger players then watch out....

Where and how exactly was BG ready to take a job bigger than UD? The guy couldn't do better than .500 in the A10. Couldn't wait to run him out of town from a coaching standpoint as the program could NOT get over the hump and players were not developing properly.
Seems a couple of you can't get the main point, sorry its not that difficult really. I'm on target if you can read it in its entirety. You are welcome to your opinion on BG and whatever, I just don't agree with you.

Sorry its so difficult for you to grasp.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:37 PM
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Miller, nor any coach in his position, cannot wait when the job they want, and are offered comes open. He had to take it now, or maybe forever hold his piece. Archie felt he was ready, the school he wanted offered big bucks, so what's to debate?
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
There is nothing wrong with being ambitious. Frankly, BG and AM were both MORE ambitious than the university. The university has to start thinking more like a championship organization. UD is getting there thanks to the ambition of these coaches

If you think you are good and top notch, then you want to be where the best are. I can't fault either coach.

If AG does not talk about winning A10 championships, sweet 16s, Final Fours and championship games, I will be disappointed. I expect him to drive the team and university towards those goals.
And here I thought that by offering AM a top ten salary, and all the support he could ask for that the Administration was acting like a championship organization.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Miller, nor any coach in his position, cannot wait when the job they want, and are offered comes open. He had to take it now, or maybe forever hold his piece. Archie felt he was ready, the school he wanted offered big bucks, so what's to debate?
That's fine if that is all there is to it. But taking IU with all that goes with it is no easy chore. So several of you think because the opportunity opened up he should have taken it, which he did. But what happens if you don't meet their expectations and the leash is short then you find yourself on the out side with far less opportunities, vs waiting for more experience to survive that opportunity and become the next BK.

To me he will either be the savior to bring back their golden years or just another so so coach who couldn't deliver. All I'm saying is I felt he needed more time to prepare for the IU job. Hope I'm wrong but looking back at OP, BG don't see where their moves worked out for the better.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by UD62 View Post
And here I thought that by offering AM a top ten salary, and all the support he could ask for that the Administration was acting like a championship organization.
They didn't give him a 15/15 schedule. Lol.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Hope I'm wrong but looking back at OP, BG don't see where their moves worked out for the better.
I would not put OP or BG in the same coaching class as Archie. Definitely not BG. I am not sure why but Oliver never seemed adequate in the tournament. They both gave UD a needed boost but were never considered at the same level. I like Archie's chances of making it as a successful coach.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cralford View Post
I would not put OP or BG in the same coaching class as Archie. Definitely not BG. I am not sure why but Oliver never seemed adequate in the tournament. They both gave UD a needed boost but were never considered at the same level. I like Archie's chances of making it as a successful coach.
I agree. Oliver is a very good coach, but struggled recruiting and getting the right assistants to recruit well.
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