Objective Selection and Seeding

[Go-UD-Go]

This needs to be its own thread. The NCAA needs to make the selection and seeding processes objective. There should be no human intervention to right wrongs or keep two ACC teams from playing each other before such and such a round. Every year there is a hew and cry over the b@$tards on the committee who picked A over B. I do not believe that the committee as a whole is trying to cater to the power conferences or screw the little guy. It is just hard to be an expert on what 300+ teams are doing in the year.

RPI was supposed to be this measure. Why did the NCAA back away from it? Is it possible to be gamed in a way that is not obvious? Could we not have a set of rule tweaks that protect against known cheats? We could change the rules every year for I care. It should just be known a season or two before they go into effect.

There needs to be a written set of rules that rank teams from 1 to N and we then seed the first 68. I don't believe that we should worry about rivals playing each other early in the tourney. We should not worry about higher seeds playing in lower seeds backyards. Let the quirky numbers fall as they may and play ball. Enough of this yearly flagellation of the selection committee.

[JimBo]

Maybe they can hire Hal 9000 for their "eye test." Install one in every arena.



I'm sorry Mr. Barnes, I'm afraid I can't do that.

[bobber]

We know these things: the committee is not objective, the committee individually and as a whole can be gotten to.

The process is broken.

There will be no willingness to reform the selection process as long as it favors the Power 5.

[Alberto Strasse]

rests with the Committee. Accept it for what it is. Just because there is twitter does not mean every opinion is authoritative.

[OSUdaytonFAN]

I've always said that they should use some sort of "bcs" type of system to select and seed the field.

[FlyingArrow]

Agreed. Objective is best. The RPI is not the best system, but it isn't terrible. At least it's objective. It has two criteria that I think are important:

* A win is a win. You aren't penalized for a 1 point win or rewarded for a blowout.
* Where you play is weighted explicitly, with road wins given higher weight.

It doesn't really have any statistical basis, though. Pretty much an arbitrary formula as far as that goes.

[jack72]

The football playoffs went back to people picking it, and not using the BCS. A step backwards, as TCU can attest.

[ChampCar]

Here is the solution to the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxyPeME9TbI

[FlyingArrow]

If we would drop the conference tournaments we could just seed every D1 school. That would be fun.

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by FlyingArrow If we would drop the conference tournaments we could just seed every D1 school. That would be fun.

In reality, the NCAA tourney is a double elimination for 36 teams and single elimination for the other 300 (except NJIT and the IVY league teams). When viewed that way, the better teams in the littler conferences are really getting screwed (like Murray State this year).

[udisit19]

If the tournament was seeded based on ESPN's bpi rankings. Dayton would be the last 8 seed against the first number 9 seeded providence. Instead providence is a 6 and UD the last 11 seed.

Regarding tonight according to BPI: Dayton is considered the 32nd best team in the country and Boise State the 54th best team in the country. For reference: VCU(26), Davidson(31), Ole Miss(34), Texas A&M(37), Rhode Island(42), Richmond(59), UConn(62), GW(69).
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	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[xubrew]

In football, when we had an objective rating, it changed virtually every year because they couldn't get it right, and people were demanding that they use a committee instead.

The RPI is a very general rating, not a comprehensive power ranking. It isn't as general as simply sorting teams by their win/loss percentage, but it isn't all that much more complex than that.

Unless you play a 350 game season where everyone plays everyone, the process will not be precise enough to please everyone. A committee is used for every sport in all three divisions, and the process is pretty much the same. The one exception is FBS football, and that's not really an exception since it's not an NCAA run event. For better or worse, (and when they select teams like UCLA, it's probably worse) it is what it is.

[Flyer 86]

T o have AD's only on this Committee is simply ..... ludicrous. NO way for them to be familiar with all the teams, viewing games and all the stats and computer methodologies.

Some of the ESPN talking heads have suggested:

1) Having former D1 Coaches on the Committee

People who are actually familiar with the ins and outs of many conferences. Who know what a road win is like, and some should be from the WAC, MWC, A10 - basically the smaller and mid level conferences , as well some from the BIG 5 Powers.

John Thompson? (Gtown)
JOn Chaney? (Temple)
Rollie
Donoher (as an example, he's likely aged out)
Lute Olsen
Gary Williams

Esteemed coaches that can guide these **** knuckleheads!

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[xubrew]

Originally Posted by Flyer 86 T o have AD's only on this Committee is simply ..... ludicrous. NO way for them to be familiar with all the teams, viewing games and all the stats and computer methodologies. Some of the ESPN talking heads have suggested: 1) Having former D1 Coaches on the Committee People who are actually familiar with the ins and outs of many conferences. Who know what a road win is like, and some should be from the WAC, MWC, A10 - basically the smaller and mid level conferences , as well some from the BIG 5 Powers. John Thompson? (Gtown) JOn Chaney? (Temple) Rollie Donoher (as an example, he's likely aged out) Lute Olsen Gary Williams Esteemed coaches that can guide these **** knuckleheads!

Rollie is still coaching at the NAIA level, so I don't know how much help he would be.

This will never happen either. The NCAA will not involve anyone that is not governed by them. So, it's ADs and commissioners.

Imagine what the div3 committees are like. There are 478 teams, or something like that, and none of the games are ever on TV.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[ScottyExpress]

Coaches have biases too, even retired esteemed ones. Computers don't as long as they are programmed fairly. Think a combination of RPI, Sagarin, BPI, etc would be preferred. Much more fair as long as the logarithms are open (meaning not secret) and everyone knows what they have to do to get where they want to go.

Computer rankings aren't nearly as fair when you are only picking four teams for a playoff and everyone only plays 12 games or so. With 68 possible selections and over 30 games played it is almost the perfect solution.

Maybe we only let the humans on the committee tweak seeding to a MINOR extent.

Edit: I also like FlyingArrow's idea of eliminating conference tourneys and doubling or tripling the field.

[Flyer 86]

Originally Posted by ScottyExpress Coaches have biases too, even retired esteemed ones. Computers don't as long as they are programmed fairly. Think a combination of RPI, Sagarin, BPI, etc would be preferred. Much more fair as long as the logarithms are open (meaning not secret) and everyone knows what they have to do to get where they want to go. Computer rankings aren't nearly as fair when you are only picking four teams for a playoff and everyone only plays 12 games or so. With 68 possible selections and over 30 games played it is almost the perfect solution. Maybe we only let the humans on the committee tweak seeding to a MINOR extent.

True ex coaches might and do likely have biases. But what about how compromised AD;s and Commissioners are as they know money comes back to their conferences by simply awarding tournament bids.

Talk about possible corruption. And i'm not generally a conspiracy type of guy

[CE80]

Quit wasting your time trying to come up with a better system. No matter what you come up with, the power 5 schools will come up with a way to control it.

With the UCLA inclusion, I finally learned there is no Santa Claus. The system is fixed and there is nothing we can do about except win the conference tourney or try and stay as far above the cut line as possible.

Did Ohio St really deserve to be in the football 4 team playoff over TCU and Baylor?

[ScottyExpress]

Originally Posted by Flyer 86 True ex coaches might and do likely have biases. But what about how compromised AD;s and Commissioners are as they know money comes back to their conferences by simply awarding tournament bids. Talk about possible corruption. And i'm not generally a conspiracy type of guy

Well, the conferences already decide where the NCAA proceeds go, so the Power 5 would still get a very large chunk of the pie if they perform well. Doubling the field and doing it by computer seems the fairest solution to me.

CE80 - realize this is a waste time talking about this, but there are still four hours till game time and I'm bored

[Larry67]

Better yet, cut the regular season by 2 games and invite all 320 teams to participate, which would require only 2 more tournament games. Reduce the NCAA's role to seeding only.

[ortez52]

See we have a buckeye hater ,answer to your question is yes,didnt they beat the one and two seeds get over it,and get use to it should happen again.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by OSUdaytonFAN I've always said that they should use some sort of "bcs" type of system to select and seed the field.

They did use a "BCS"-like system during this year's selection process. It's just that they left-out the "C" (do the math). ;-)
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[CE80]

Originally Posted by ortez52 See we have a buckeye hater ,answer to your question is yes,didnt they beat the one and two seeds get over it,and get use to it should happen again.

You have that wrong. I am all in on Ohio St. (Except when it conflicts with UD). I posed a question. I did not give the answer.