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  #1101  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:44 PM
OCFlyer85 OCFlyer85 is offline
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
Wonder what you call a real 15-20 point whuppin' if you call a 1 point loss an ass-kicking.
I recall that Weber had a 10 point lead most of the game and killed us on the boards.
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  #1102  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:55 PM
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Any word on Koran Moore? Prep school? Academic issues? Personal issues?
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  #1103  
Old 06-20-2018, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Any word on Koran Moore? Prep school? Academic issues? Personal issues?
his recruitment has gone quiet for months, not sure what's going on
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  #1104  
Old 06-20-2018, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
his recruitment has gone quiet for months, not sure what's going on
His own personal quiet period
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  #1105  
Old 06-20-2018, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by OCFlyer85 View Post
I recall that Weber had a 10 point lead most of the game and killed us on the boards.
Actually the biggest lead in the first half was UD by 7, WS led by 6 in the first half. Biggest lead in the second half was WS by 8, while UD's biggest lead was 7. The biggest lead by either team in the last 6 minutes was UD by 1 and WS by 3.

WS did out rebound UD by 5, but the difference in the game was WS shot 45% while UD shot a very cool 37%, helping WS win even though they turned it over twice as many times as UD (18-9).

These stats are from the ESPN game summary. As I tell my grandkids, we live in the information age. Makes it much harder for old people like me to remember things the way I want to.
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  #1106  
Old 06-20-2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
His own personal quiet period
From what I can tell, the vast majority of these cases with a guy dropping off of the radar it's usually something on the academic end
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  #1107  
Old 06-25-2018, 12:34 PM
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UD Fans:

The deadline of 06/22 for registration for the 2nd session of summer school has past. I did not hear on this blog the "Welcome xxxxx to the Family" for two BIG-sized Center-type recruits.

What does it mean?

It is my understanding that a recruit must be registered for second session summer school in order to be allowed to practice with the team this summer with certain amounts of coach-led sessions under some relatively new rules/regulations. A player missing these workouts is severely at a disadvantage relative to other players at other schools who will be practicing during the summer.

What does it mean?

Does it mean that the roster is set and two open full scholarships will go un-used for 2018-19 year? What are the odds of still recruiting for these open scholarships between now and the start of the fall classes? What are the odds of recruiting a player to be eligible in January 2019 but to play this 2018-19 year? Does it mean the roster will have no recruit who was recruited to play center on the roster?

Unfair to Josh Cunnigham? He was recruited to play forward. He'll be required to play out of position, at center. Playing out of position raises the risk of injury as playing against much larger players at center than at forward. Playing out of position does not prepare him to play forward in professional ball in Europe. It slows his development of skill for the forward position that he will need for professional ball in Europe.

Roster limits Anthony Grant options? Certain sets will not be possible with this lineup. When Grant prepares for another team, he must always base it upon this limited roster (no center).

Roster makes it easier for Opposing Coaches to prepare for Dayton? Roster limitations (no center) allows opposing coach to focus on defense preparations without Dayton having a rim protector. They should be able to drive to the basket and open up passing to mid range jumpers.

Did Anthony Grant fail in recruiting? You don't get called a great recruiter by how well you recruit shooting guards. You get labeled a great recruiter by bringing in top BIG's who can rebound and play center and power forward.

If Josh Cunnigham gets hurt? If Josh get hurt or in foul trouble then can this roster get a rebound? Landers has strength but would be even more out of position than Cunningham for the rebounding role. Is Toppin at an increased weight of 220, ready to rebound proficiently?

Is Run, Run, Run as an offensive strategy, a winning strategy? Run, Run and Run is certainly exciting to watch but is it winning basketball? A rebound would be helpful?

If a team Runs, Runs, Runs will it run out of gas by the time A10 conference tournament time or NIT time? Run, Run and Run leads to more injuries. A limited quantity of players (leaving two open scholarships) leads to more playing time and less spring in the legs at the end of the season.

Based upon my reading, A10 teams have gotten bigger in preparation for this year. Dayton recruited two very scrawny 6'8" kids, although I read that Toppin has gained 25 pounds in the off-season to 220. Still under the average size for a Division 1 center of 240. St. Louis, in particular, has gotten much bigger during the off season.

Given that the type of center recruit that Dayton can typically recruit, it could be two years after this year before we have a mature Division 1 center ready. Typically, the type of BIG that Dayton can recruit is a guy who need two years to physically mature and be ready for Division 1. Without that guy on the bench sitting and learning this year; we'll have to start from scratch next year and wait two years on this kid to mature.

I'm not in a panic-mode, yet. I'm raising a red flag, here.
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  #1108  
Old 06-25-2018, 12:44 PM
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It seems that many of you believe that the only way you can win basketball games is to have some big guy stand in the middle and drop balls into the basket. We have heard this story over and over since the end of the season. If many of you had your way, they might as well not even play this season. This team will do fine witnout having a 6'10" guy in the middle. How much did having two guys that tall last year help us? You will see a much more athletic team this year that will play better defense and play with one mindset. Quit worrying about what you don't have and figure out how to succeed with what you do have.
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  #1109  
Old 06-25-2018, 01:50 PM
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I've seen you say this quite a bit... and I have never understood it. You can't be a good recruiter by recruiting great shooting guards? You're only graded based on recruiting centers? I don't think this is true.

[QUOTE=Buckleyma;553460]

Did Anthony Grant fail in recruiting? You don't get called a great recruiter by how well you recruit shooting guards. You get labeled a great recruiter by bringing in top BIG's who can rebound and play center and power forward.
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  #1110  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckleyma View Post
Dayton recruited two very scrawny 6'8" kids, although I read that Toppin has gained 25 pounds in the off-season to 220. Still under the average size for a Division 1 center of 240. St. Louis, in particular, has gotten much bigger during the off season.
We have put plenty of players out there to defend the post that were under 240.

What if I told you Devin Oliver was coming back this year to add some post defense. Would that make you happy? He's listed at 6'8" 224 pounds. Toppin is 6'8" 220.

I have a hard time believing that 4 pounds is the difference between being OK and a failure of a season.

Yes - Oliver was a seasoned vet who used his brain as much as his body, but give Obi a chance to learn.

That says nothing of guys like Keith Waleskowski (6'9" 230), Yuanta Holland (6'7 225), Devin Searcy (6'10" 230), Josh Benson (6'9" 228), Dyshawn Pierre (6'6" 230), and Josh Cunningham (6'7" 233) who were asked to defend the post for some or all of their career who, by your definition, would be too small to do it.

Heck, even Nate Green, who was 245, but only 6'6" was a beast in the post.

OK people - I need some help. Other post players over the last 15-20 years who were under 240. I'm sure I'm missing a few.
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  #1111  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:05 PM
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I think Obi's going to fill part of the big guy role this year. True center? No, but he's 6'8" or 6'9", 220lbs, very athletic. I would bet he blocks some shots this year. He'll be a really nice option as a hybrid 4/5. He didn't come in with the recruiting stars, but I think he's going to be really good.

Another true center would certainly be nice to have. But the only real need that I see for this season is as an injury insurance policy. I'd expect a true big for 2019.
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  #1112  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckleyma View Post
UD Fans:

I'm not in a panic-mode, yet. I'm raising a red flag, here.
You certainly have highlighted some arees of concern. I'll give you that. Some answers may not be forth coming when we want them.

But if this is not your panic mode, I'd hate to see it!!!
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  #1113  
Old 06-25-2018, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by John C. View Post
It seems that many of you believe that the only way you can win basketball games is to have some big guy stand in the middle and drop balls into the basket. We have heard this story over and over since the end of the season. If many of you had your way, they might as well not even play this season. This team will do fine witnout having a 6'10" guy in the middle. How much did having two guys that tall last year help us? You will see a much more athletic team this year that will play better defense and play with one mindset. Quit worrying about what you don't have and figure out how to succeed with what you do have.
I have perused the various threads and have not seen where anyone contends that the only way you can win basketball games is to have some big guy stand in the middle and drop balls into the basket. I would have thought I would have read it at least once if it is repeated over and over since the end of the season.

I have to believe that those who think we need a big man in the middle are thinking more of defense and rebounding but maybe you are right that it is the offense that they are thinking about I just have missed it.

Why build a strawman just to knock him down.
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  #1114  
Old 06-25-2018, 03:19 PM
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I was one of the first to scream for another big or two, but it is what it is. Grant may know more than me, or as they say, forgot more than I know. Obi has picked up 32 pounds of muscle while at UD, and of course weight is only one factor. Strength is more important. Coach must be happy with what he has in Obi and the incoming big kid, Policelli. Maybe we should be too!
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  #1115  
Old 06-25-2018, 04:44 PM
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Guards who can shoot and get to the glass are the key to any successful team!! Do we have them?????
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:34 PM
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We have a covey of 6'2" and taller guards/ wings that can shoot, run, rebound,
defend (maybe), and pass. Call them what you will.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
I was one of the first to scream for another big or two, but it is what it is. Grant may know more than me, or as they say, forgot more than I know. Obi has picked up 32 pounds of muscle while at UD, and of course weight is only one factor. Strength is more important. Coach must be happy with what he has in Obi and the incoming big kid, Policelli. Maybe we should be too!
Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I still don't think Anthony is finished for the summer. Maybe the big dogs are finished with their transfers and possibly there are a few good cubic zerconia's out there that fit our needs.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
We have put plenty of players out there to defend the post that were under 240.

What if I told you Devin Oliver was coming back this year to add some post defense. Would that make you happy? He's listed at 6'8" 224 pounds. Toppin is 6'8" 220.

I have a hard time believing that 4 pounds is the difference between being OK and a failure of a season.

Yes - Oliver was a seasoned vet who used his brain as much as his body, but give Obi a chance to learn.

That says nothing of guys like Keith Waleskowski (6'9" 230), Yuanta Holland (6'7 225), Devin Searcy (6'10" 230), Josh Benson (6'9" 228), Dyshawn Pierre (6'6" 230), and Josh Cunningham (6'7" 233) who were asked to defend the post for some or all of their career who, by your definition, would be too small to do it.

Heck, even Nate Green, who was 245, but only 6'6" was a beast in the post.

OK people - I need some help. Other post players over the last 15-20 years who were under 240. I'm sure I'm missing a few.
If I remember correctly Don Donoher personally worked with Yuanta Holland between his junior and senior year to greatly improve his post moves and improve his rebounding. I am sure that he would be willing to make himself available again for Obi and Frankie if AG chose to go that route.

Irv Giddings didn't weigh near 240 lbs. but he is the only one I could think of.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CvilleFlyer View Post
Irv Giddings didn't weigh near 240 lbs. but he is the only one I could think of.
Maybe not, depends on the haul, but Irv could move 240 lbs no problem.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:21 PM
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Mark Ashman was about 235 pounds, if I remember correctly. Dave Colbert was under 240 as well.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CvilleFlyer View Post
If I remember correctly Don Donoher personally worked with Yuanta Holland between his junior and senior year to greatly improve his post moves and improve his rebounding. I am sure that he would be willing to make himself available again for Obi and Frankie if AG chose to go that route.

Irv Giddings didn't weigh near 240 lbs. but he is the only one I could think of.
Irv also had Tony Ross along side of him. I think Tony was the center.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Irv also had Tony Ross along side of him. I think Tony was the center.
Yep. IIRC, Ross was listed at 6’9 and 215, but back then “big” was 6’10” and 230. In more recent memory, D&D were both @ 6’8” or 6’9” and listed at 240 or less.
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  #1123  
Old 06-25-2018, 11:37 PM
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Tonight at the NBA awards show: “There’s a lot of big guys in the world today but a lot of them can’t play.”

-some dude who played in the backcourt with Bucky for the Cincinnati Royals


Look, if you have a 6’4” guy and a 6’9” guy who are equally skilled, you want the 6’9” guy. If you have a 6’9” and a 7’0” guy who are equally skilled, you take the 7-footer. But as the Big O says, a lot of big guys can’t play.

I don’t understand where this obsession with getting a big man came from. We have Josh who can be just fine playing as our big. He’s probably gonna play 32+ minutes a game, and he can be more aggressive on D knowing we have a little depth and foul trouble won’t crush the team like it would have last year.

Yes, we “lose” guys who were 6’8”, 6’10” and 6’11” from last year, but one of them literally played 3 minutes, one was not with the team for senior day, and one had visions of a different role, and just got drafted. We add 6’6” Matos, 6’7” Mikesell, 6’8” Toppin (+20 lb from last year), and 6’9” Policelli. Would it be nice to add a skilled 7-footer? Sure. Do we “need” to? Nope. Would this hypothetical 7-footer be coveted by 150+ other schools? Yep.

We are recruiting a bunch of big guys in the 2019 and 2020 classes, so of course we are recruiting to replace Josh at some point.

It is pure opinion that somehow you can only be a good recruiter if you get bigs. In my opinion, that is actually pure fiction. We beat out Ohio State, Texas, West Virginia, and others for Cohill. We beat out Cincy and Texas Tech for Policelli.

Again, would it be nice to have a 6’11” agile strong big with good touch and good rebounding/shotblocking skills? Uh, yes. Get in line, because Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, UNC, UCLA, Michigan, Villanova, Florida, Tennessee, and about 145 other schools want that guy too. You want that guy but a late bloomer so the big schools haven’t snapped him up in June? Well, ok, I’m sure the staff is working on it. If they find a good player or players for 2018, they will take them. But after last year, Coach Grant is not going to take a guy just to fill a spot. We need guys who want to be here, are willing and able to play the way Grant wants, and fit with our culture. If there’s a 7-footer out there who fits those criteria, I’m sure the coaches would love to bring him in. But again, it is just untrue that we haven’t tried to get any bigs for 2018, and it’s also untrue that we must have one in this recruiting class.

The way basketball is going, you’re better off having a bunch of guys 6’4” to 6’9” who can switch, guard the 3-point line, and be versatile on the offensive end as well. The days of dumping the ball into the big man in the post are going away.

Put another way, would you rather have another Trey Landers or another Jordan Pierce? I think the answer is pretty clear.
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  #1124  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:50 AM
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UD still has an offer to 6'9", 230 lb, Koran Moore out of Baltimore. He is a 2-3 star out of Baltimore with offers from USC and UMass. Again the fact that he is uncommitted may mean some grade problems.
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post
Put another way, would you rather have another Trey Landers or another Jordan Pierce? I think the answer is pretty clear.
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Exactly.

I've never thought for a minute that Grant is satisfied with this team as is. Would he love to have a quality big? Of course!

But he doesn't want to waste a spot on a big who's not good enough to contribute. And I don't want him to either.

I keep hearing "we just need a big to defend and rebound". Bigs who can just do those things aren't as plentiful as some would think.

An insurance big would definitely come in handy. But how much insurance did Pierce provide last year?

I have a sneaky suspicion that the people in the "we have no bigs and the sky is falling" camp are the ones who whined about Grant's hiring from Day 1. Just a suspicion.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
Exactly.

I've never thought for a minute that Grant is satisfied with this team as is. Would he love to have a quality big? Of course!

But he doesn't want to waste a spot on a big who's not good enough to contribute. And I don't want him to either.

I keep hearing "we just need a big to defend and rebound". Bigs who can just do those things aren't as plentiful as some would think.

An insurance big would definitely come in handy. But how much insurance did Pierce provide last year?

I have a sneaky suspicion that the people in the "we have no bigs and the sky is falling" camp are the ones who whined about Grant's hiring from Day 1. Just a suspicion.
There's a saying in recruiting that it's never the guys you don't get that hurt you but the ones you DO get that just don't pan out or never amount. Can't offer out of haste. You're going to be stuck with those guys 4-5 years unless they transfer or simply don't hold up their end of the bargain...
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  #1127  
Old 06-26-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
Exactly.

I've never thought for a minute that Grant is satisfied with this team as is. Would he love to have a quality big? Of course!

But he doesn't want to waste a spot on a big who's not good enough to contribute. And I don't want him to either.

I keep hearing "we just need a big to defend and rebound". Bigs who can just do those things aren't as plentiful as some would think.

An insurance big would definitely come in handy. But how much insurance did Pierce provide last year?

I have a sneaky suspicion that the people in the "we have no bigs and the sky is falling" camp are the ones who whined about Grant's hiring from Day 1. Just a suspicion.
No... We are the one's enormously unhappy with last year's losing record ( the sky is already down), and very concerned that we are not going to be materially better this year with our biggest weakness ( defense) seemingly unaddressed, and at risk of being absolutely terrible should we sustain a key injury. Grant's coaching was not thought to be top tier but was hoping his recruiting could offset that. So far his recruiting is suspect and accordingly our return to prominence is not yet on the radar.
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Old 06-26-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
No... We are the one's enormously unhappy with last year's losing record ( the sky is already down), and very concerned that we are not going to be materially better this year with our biggest weakness ( defense) seemingly unaddressed, and at risk of being absolutely terrible should we sustain a key injury. Grant's coaching was not thought to be top tier but was hoping his recruiting could offset that. So far his recruiting is suspect and accordingly our return to prominence is not yet on the radar.
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Well stated! I expect better things this year as we should have players on the team that actually want to be in school and put in the effort, but I am having a lot of trouble seeing us get to a top 4 finish in the A10 with out some incredibly good luck and perfectly executed (and well thought out) adaptable game plans.
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Old 06-26-2018, 05:23 PM
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The off-season gives no clues as to the state of defense next year. The players who transferred out were among the weakest defenders.

Coach Grant is quiet and plays cards close to his chest. I do know, he was beside himself due to last year’s defensive performances. The reason that some players had reduced playing time was due to defense and probably off the court issues.

At this point, it is difficult to say if defense will still be bad. I can’t imagine it being any worse.
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Old 06-26-2018, 06:14 PM
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I believe we will be much better defensively than most of you want to give AG credit for!! If we are lucky and I say lucky and can avoid prolonged injury this is going to be a very good team that plays AG defense and he does know how to coach defense believe me!!!!
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Old 06-26-2018, 06:44 PM
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Here's my concern and I've never seen anyone attempt to explain it

This isn't strictly about height and weight it's about being to play a position and fill a roll on a basketball team. This boils down to low post play which is playing close to the basket in the paint.

Luke Fabrizius was 6'9 225 and he couldn't play in the post. Xeyrius Williams was 6'8-6'9 and he couldn't. Kendall Pollard was 6'5 and he could.

From the publicly available info and the opinions of the national recruiting analysts Obi and Frankie are perimeter oriented combo forwards in the mold of Xeyrius. Nothing I've seen suggests these are guys that can go down and bang in the post with a Tillman from VCU.

As an aside if you think since he's graduated that the rest of the bigs in this leagues are weak (which is what many people have claimed) you're kidding yourself

Someone on this team other than Josh Cunningham has to box out a Cart'ere Gordon on a rebound or be physical enough to keep a Grant Golden from getting position in the post. I like Ryan Mikesell more than most on this board and I like what I've read about Obi but I think it could be big trouble if Cunningham gets two quick fouls and these guys have to live around the basket for 15 minutes

After Josh graduates there's a big a whole. A true freshman has to be a hit in recruiting to step in right away. Good JUCO bigs and grad transfers have virtually every power conference team after them

I hope I'm wrong but I think this is an area of reasonable concern
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  #1132  
Old 06-26-2018, 07:52 PM
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It’s June and a lot can change between now and late October or early November when the first game is played. Folks, i just raised the red flag on the condition of the current roster. That is, the roster, as it stands, today. I am hoping that something good will change between now and then.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I still don't think Anthony is finished for the summer. Maybe the big dogs are finished with their transfers and possibly there are a few good cubic zerconia's out there that fit our needs.

see, I'm thinking the same thing.... I wonder, have we ever signed anyone this late in June?
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by steverino015 View Post
see, I'm thinking the same thing.... I wonder, have we ever signed anyone this late in June?
The latest I ever remember was Josh Cunningham announced his actual transfer to UD on 6-11-15...Certainly did not help them on the court the following year having to sit out.
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  #1135  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:51 AM
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Matt Derenbecker (RIP) announced he was transferring to Dayton mid August 2011.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I hope I'm wrong but I think this is an area of reasonable concern
I agree 100% that it's a reasonable concern. This deficiency will no doubt bite us in the butt a few times this season.

What I don't agree with is the notion that some (not all) are saying that this shows...

- Grant can't recruit
- Grant doesn't know how to put together a roster

But I also think our small lineup has a chance to create match-up problems for the other team as well. Hopefully, more than enough times to offset the times it bites us in the butt. (We already know that some will never recognize the times small ball goes our way, only when it hurts us with a missed rebound, etc.)

Changing gears: As far as the defense, yes we stunk last year. Awful.

Anyone that thinks poor defense will continue to be a problem long-term hasn't followed Grant's career. He has built his teams on defense.

For me personally, the biggest concern with Grant's recruiting is that this team and future teams will lack enough shooters and offensive efficiency to go with all the athleticism. But I'm not going to blast our coach for it when he's only one year in.
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  #1137  
Old 06-27-2018, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
I agree 100% that it's a reasonable concern. This deficiency will no doubt bite us in the butt a few times this season.

What I don't agree with is the notion that some (not all) are saying that this shows...

- Grant can't recruit
- Grant doesn't know how to put together a roster

But I also think our small lineup has a chance to create match-up problems for the other team as well. Hopefully, more than enough times to offset the times it bites us in the butt. (We already know that some will never recognize the times small ball goes our way, only when it hurts us with a missed rebound, etc.)

Changing gears: As far as the defense, yes we stunk last year. Awful.

Anyone that thinks poor defense will continue to be a problem long-term hasn't followed Grant's career. He has built his teams on defense.

For me personally, the biggest concern with Grant's recruiting is that this team and future teams will lack enough shooters and offensive efficiency to go with all the athleticism. But I'm not going to blast our coach for it when he's only one year in.
Good points. The last few years UD's perimeter defense has also been terrible. They've allowed far too many easy dribble penetration buckets and easy dump downs/drop-off passes after dribble penetration to BIGS. They need to solve their perimeter defense on both wings and PG's and the interior defense will automatically improve....
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Old 06-28-2018, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post

But I also think our small lineup has a chance to create match-up problems for the other team as well. Hopefully, more than enough times to offset the times it bites us in the butt. (We already know that some will never recognize the times small ball goes our way, only when it hurts us with a missed rebound, etc.)
I agree that small ball can create match up problems. You need the right skill sets to make it work. AG can run out lineups that can create mismatches in man defense but depending on shooting they can zone if they've can't defend man to man

Right now Jalen and Jordan are the guys who have some proven some shooting. Trey might not be a guy who takes 150-200 3 point shots a year but if he can become a shooter in the mold of Kyle Davis (someone who can make a shot if you leave him open and force the defense to respect him) that'll go a long way to keep teams from going to zone against

Hopefully a healthy Mikesell can be a guy who can be a threat from the perimeter
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Old 06-28-2018, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I agree that small ball can create match up problems. You need the right skill sets to make it work. AG can run out lineups that can create mismatches in man defense but depending on shooting they can zone if they've can't defend man to man

Right now Jalen and Jordan are the guys who have some proven some shooting. Trey might not be a guy who takes 150-200 3 point shots a year but if he can become a shooter in the mold of Kyle Davis (someone who can make a shot if you leave him open and force the defense to respect him) that'll go a long way to keep teams from going to zone against

Hopefully a healthy Mikesell can be a guy who can be a threat from the perimeter
I thought Trey increased his 3PT % quite a bit throughout the year. I don't think he's going to be a guy that jacks up 3s but I expect he can drain one at any time if the situation calls for it.
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  #1140  
Old 06-28-2018, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
I thought Trey increased his 3PT % quite a bit throughout the year. I don't think he's going to be a guy that jacks up 3s but I expect he can drain one at any time if the situation calls for it.
He'll shoot more 3's this year than last year.He's already a better shooter than KD. It took KD until his senior year to jump past 33%.

Trey averaged 1.9 attempts last year and was at 0.352....He improved quite a bit and the ball certainly seems to come out of his hand alot more naturally than KD. I saw defenders come out and have to guard Trey more later in the year which will only help him getting by guys and going to the bucket..
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Old 06-28-2018, 03:16 PM
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Trey seems to know the time and place for him to take a 3. Kyle was always too hesitant. He probably should have shot a few more.
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Old 06-28-2018, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Trey seems to know the time and place for him to take a 3. Kyle was always too hesitant. He probably should have shot a few more.
No doubt. Once he passed on the open shot, looked around, and tried to regroup he usually was way off...
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Old 06-28-2018, 06:50 PM
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It's very easy to rationalize not having a big when you don't have one. it's like the guy that gets shot down by a few 9's before getting a 5 to go with him to prom. I don't like going into a season knowing we have nobody(again) to stop a Justin Tillman type. Josh proved he couldn't last year. Maybe small ball works, maybe it doesn't, but raise your hand if you feel we can contain Ethan Happ in 5 months.........still waiting. Im firmly in the camp that desires a big man or two. Whats wrong with that? Wanting a big man is every bit as sane as wanting small ball to work. This team as currently constructed has no depth behind Crutcher, before you say Cohill remember Darrell was billed as a "combo" guard. No meat behind Josh who gets in foul trouble early and often. Mark my words, i hope im wrong but i don't see us making the NCAA as constructed. It will be an improved team, a more cohesive team a more FUN team, but we will be exposed.
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
It's very easy to rationalize not having a big when you don't have one. it's like the guy that gets shot down by a few 9's before getting a 5 to go with him to prom. I don't like going into a season knowing we have nobody(again) to stop a Justin Tillman type. Josh proved he couldn't last year. Maybe small ball works, maybe it doesn't, but raise your hand if you feel we can contain Ethan Happ in 5 months.........still waiting. Im firmly in the camp that desires a big man or two. Whats wrong with that? Wanting a big man is every bit as sane as wanting small ball to work. This team as currently constructed has no depth behind Crutcher, before you say Cohill remember Darrell was billed as a "combo" guard. No meat behind Josh who gets in foul trouble early and often. Mark my words, i hope im wrong but i don't see us making the NCAA as constructed. It will be an improved team, a more cohesive team a more FUN team, but we will be exposed.
I don't think you are giving enough credit to the three bigs that we didn't have last year but that we do have this year. When Josh gets in foul trouble I have complete faith in Obi and Frankie to come in and do the job. I often heard from sources that Ryan Mikesell was one of the better players in practice all of last season! We will have tons of versatility and if Trey improves even half again as much as he did between his frosh season and his soph season he will be a load on the boards for opposing defenses. Two years ago Mikesell was sneaky good on rebounds and showed he could shoot an occasional 3 pointer! I don't agree with you that the team has no depth behind Crutcher. Jordan Davis, although his three point percentage tailed off toward the end of the season, proved early he can shoot. Cohill may be better than we give him credit. He wasn't rated a 4 star for no reason. I think we just might surprise and get into the NCAA. The key is to do well in the A-10 as I believe it is wide open. St. Louis has to play to the level of their press clippings which is sometimes hard to do!

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Old 06-29-2018, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
It's very easy to rationalize not having a big when you don't have one. it's like the guy that gets shot down by a few 9's before getting a 5 to go with him to prom. I don't like going into a season knowing we have nobody(again) to stop a Justin Tillman type. Josh proved he couldn't last year. Maybe small ball works, maybe it doesn't, but raise your hand if you feel we can contain Ethan Happ in 5 months.........still waiting. Im firmly in the camp that desires a big man or two. Whats wrong with that? Wanting a big man is every bit as sane as wanting small ball to work. This team as currently constructed has no depth behind Crutcher, before you say Cohill remember Darrell was billed as a "combo" guard. No meat behind Josh who gets in foul trouble early and often. Mark my words, i hope im wrong but i don't see us making the NCAA as constructed. It will be an improved team, a more cohesive team a more FUN team, but we will be exposed.
I get the thinking, but I don't agree. I think everyone would like to have another big guy, myself included. Indeed, we have offered multiple 2019 bigs just in the last week or so. I'm not sure who is left out there for the 2018 class... maybe there's an international big guy that we are working to get eligible, or another guy who might reclassify, or something.

I simply do not agree that Josh Cunningham "proved" he could not guard a guy like Justin Tillman last year. For many reasons, I do not feel this is the case. First, he was coming off a pretty significant injury from the year before and I think still wasn't 100% last season. More importantly, he was literally the only big guy we could reliably count on for a good part of the season, especially the second half of the year. On defense, to me, it appeared that most games his strategy was to try to not foul and kind of just get in the way of guys shooting. I do not think we have seen him really do what he is capable of on defense. Last year, we had an up-and-down Kostas, whatever-you-want-to-call-what-happened-to-him Xeyrius, and um, Jordan Pierce backing him up. Trey Landers played pretty well as an undersized 4, but we didn't really have a legit backup for Josh. Certainly, our season turned out poorly so we can say in hindsight that it didn't matter if he played the "do-not-foul" defense, but that's what it looked like to me. He's not likely to be a lockdown defender, but he is a lot better on D than he looked last year. This year, we will have Obi able to back him up, Trey will be bigger and stronger, and we have a few other guys (Mikesell, Obi, Frankie) who can slide over to the 4 spot if Trey has to try to muscle guys in the post for a few minutes to spell a tired or in-foul-trouble Josh.

I don't know if you're trying to refer to Josh as a "5" instead of a "9"but I would argue his defensive ceiling is a lot higher than 5/10. Maybe we're mixing metaphors here.

Re: no depth behind Crutcher and re: Darrell, Cohill is in fact a 4* combo guard, and he could run backup point, I think. I think Jordan Davis' handle wasn't great last year, but I would assume he will be better next year than he was last year. We have a few other guys who ought to be able to bring the ball up in a pinch. I still think we might add another guard for 2018, but that's another discussion, I guess. Darrell was in fact a combo guard and was the backup point guard on a team that won two NCAA games and was leading Oklahoma by 9 with 9 minutes to go in a second round game. I think Cohill will be a better ball handler than Darrell, but sure, he'll be a freshman and who knows about freshman... but if we're comparing Darrell to Dwayne, don't pooh pooh Baby D as he did all right as a freshman playing out of position, and Dwayne is better than he was, and handled the ball more in high school than Darrell did. Both can create their own shot to a degree, but Darrell seems to be MUCH more of a catch-and-shoot guy while Dwayne is more of a slasher. For 5-10 minutes a game, that's gonna be fine for a backup PG.

And overall, we ought to have more depth next year even if we are short a couple roster spots (4 if you count two transfers sitting out). Last year, we had three guys who were pretty much unplayable for various reasons - Pierce, Crosby, and Williams. Kostas floated in and out of this category, and Svoboda just wasn't ready for the speed/size/strength at the D1 level. He played hard and gave his best, but he just wasn't able to contribute as we needed. Add that to having three spots where guys couldn't play (Miller, Obi, Mikesell) and we really had 6 spots that at times we couldn't use. Next year, as of now, that's 4. Of course, we don't know yet about the new guys or the two guys who sat out last season, but reports certainly seem positive.

Are there many guys in college basketball who can really guard Ethan Happ in the post, by the way? Are there many incoming freshmen who can do this? Are there any 2018 recruits who considered or are considering Dayton that you would feel comfortable putting on Happ in the post? I feel pretty good with a healthy, aggressive Josh Cunningham on him. We might find out how this plays out in about 5 months!

Anyway, sure, I'd love to have another big guy and a good backup PG for next year, but we have a versatile lineup with a bunch of guys between 6'4" and 6'9" who can do a lot of different things on both sides of the ball. We have more depth, we can afford to have Josh be more aggressive on defense, we have a 4* combo guard coming in, and three guys 6'7" or taller who weren't on the active roster last year.

Again, we are losing from the frontcourt: Pierce, Williams, Kostas, Svoboda. We replace them with Toppin, Policelli, Mikesell. From the backcourt, we lose Darrell Davis and Crosby and replace them with Dwayne Cohill and Jhery Matos.

If that is "rationalizing" not getting a big, I guess you can call me rational.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:38 AM
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Justin Tillman was a load for any 4/5 to guard, especially his senior year when he developed a three-point shot. In many cases Josh Cunningham just needed five minutes on the bench to get his wind back, but when he sat the Flyers suffered. He has more suitable back-up players this year. I expect big things from him this year and even bigger things out of the Flyers. They did not have the experience or firepower last year to compete for an A-10 title. This year will be a different story.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:20 AM
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So you expect that we will compete for the conference title? Wow. We lose a Senior leader ( second leading scorer, good defender and
rebounder)and add a red shirt big. Where do we get 15.4 ppg and we need much more? I'd expect the newcomers to offset the others we lost. But to go from 8-10, to what? 13-5-- 15-3 won last year! I don't see it unless Obi is an All American type player.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
It's very easy to rationalize not having a big when you don't have one. it's like the guy that gets shot down by a few 9's before getting a 5 to go with him to prom. I don't like going into a season knowing we have nobody(again) to stop a Justin Tillman type. Josh proved he couldn't last year.
Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
Justin Tillman was a load for any 4/5 to guard, especially his senior year when he developed a three-point shot. In many cases Josh Cunningham just needed five minutes on the bench to get his wind back, but when he sat the Flyers suffered. He has more suitable back-up players this year. I expect big things from him this year and even bigger things out of the Flyers. They did not have the experience or firepower last year to compete for an A-10 title. This year will be a different story.
Justin Tillman was a 6'7 220lb player. Magically his senior year he was listed at 6'8 and 220. He was not not this great hulk we couldn't guard because he was big. Tillman was tough because he was quick for his position and was a good technically sound player who always had good position. His soph year he had 12pt 21 rebounds against us when he was still 200lbs soaking wet. This is the tough match up that many of us are talking about when we say we want to play small. JT was more like X than the bigs you guys are worried that we will not be able to stop this year.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
So you expect that we will compete for the conference title? Wow. We lose a Senior leader ( second leading scorer, good defender and
rebounder)and add a red shirt big. Where do we get 15.4 ppg and we need much more? I'd expect the newcomers to offset the others we lost. But to go from 8-10, to what? 13-5-- 15-3 won last year! I don't see it unless Obi is an All American type player.
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I don't want to disrespect DD here, he grew alot for the role he was asked to play last year. His dribble drive was massively improved and hes shooting held relatively consistent. If we had gotten JR year DD instead of SR year DD this past season is probably unwatchable. But overall you are overestimating his importance.

DD made lots of mistakes last year you hope are ironed out of guys by their SO year. Mistakes that clearly and obviously drained a last years super young team emotionally. There was no way that eam could recover from that, in additional to their collective inexperience, lack of a bench and enormous minutes played.

I don't think anyone on the roster steps in this year and makes up completely for his 15 ppg. But if whoever starts in his spot can average 8 ppg and the rest of the guys improve to cover the rest we will be fine.

Our biggest problems last year were lack of experience (combined with new system) and lack of defense. Experience will obviously be better with a year under our belt. Defense will improve with a yea to understand of the system, and having a legitimate bench.

Conference title? Maybe, maybe not but I think we have the piece to be in the mix.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Wallage View Post
I don't want to disrespect DD here, he grew alot for the role he was asked to play last year. His dribble drive was massively improved and hes shooting held relatively consistent. If we had gotten JR year DD instead of SR year DD this past season is probably unwatchable. But overall you are overestimating his importance.

DD made lots of mistakes last year you hope are ironed out of guys by their SO year. Mistakes that clearly and obviously drained a last years super young team emotionally. There was no way that eam could recover from that, in additional to their collective inexperience, lack of a bench and enormous minutes played.

I don't think anyone on the roster steps in this year and makes up completely for his 15 ppg. But if whoever starts in his spot can average 8 ppg and the rest of the guys improve to cover the rest we will be fine.

Our biggest problems last year were lack of experience (combined with new system) and lack of defense. Experience will obviously be better with a year under our belt. Defense will improve with a yea to understand of the system, and having a legitimate bench.

Conference title? Maybe, maybe not but I think we have the piece to be in the mix.
While I agree that DD turned the ball over quite a bit, as he was just not strong with the ball, it's hard for me to agree that DD drained last year's team emotionally. From where he was earlier in his career and even thru his junior year, he had an overall excellent year...

DD is who he is and you simply find very very few to turn around their fortunes in a single year the way he did and be forced to be THE GUY and THE leader.He was neither of those things, nor even close, his first 3 years. He was not all of a sudden going to be a strong physical player nor was he going to all of a sudden be strong with the ball. Personally, he had a much better year than I thought he was going to have..

Defensively is what cost them. Terrible perimeter defense on the 3 ball and even worse dribble penetration allowed.....That automatically improves, imo, this coming season....
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:29 AM
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AG has a lot more to work with this year

Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
Justin Tillman was a load for any 4/5 to guard, especially his senior year when he developed a three-point shot. In many cases Josh Cunningham just needed five minutes on the bench to get his wind back, but when he sat the Flyers suffered. He has more suitable back-up players this year. I expect big things from him this year and even bigger things out of the Flyers. They did not have the experience or firepower last year to compete for an A-10 title. This year will be a different story.
And there aren't any Justin Tillman's in the A10 this year. VCU loses almost 50% of their rebounding and scoring to transfer or graduation. Every A10 team has it's strengths and weaknesses, and they are not all the same. I think it's going to be tough for any club to go 15-3 this coming season in the A10. The league could be a real scrum.

The thing the Flyers have to do is get better as the year progresses and finish well in our Championship Tournament. We have pooped out in too many season finishes. Our depth should help us this year.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
While I agree that DD turned the ball over quite a bit, as he was just not strong with the ball, it's hard for me to agree that DD drained last year's team emotionally. From where he was earlier in his career and even thru his junior year, he had an overall excellent year...

DD is who he is and you simply find very very few to turn around their fortunes in a single year the way he did and be forced to be THE GUY and THE leader.He was neither of those things, nor even close, his first 3 years. He was not all of a sudden going to be a strong physical player nor was he going to all of a sudden be strong with the ball. Personally, he had a much better year than I thought he was going to have..

Defensively is what cost them. Terrible perimeter defense on the 3 ball and even worse dribble penetration allowed.....That automatically improves, imo, this coming season....

I know he drained ME emotionally. I thought I also saw that on the court.

Agree on your other points. He made a huge leap jr year to sr year. He just has holes in his game that hurt us. DD clearly didn't sync up well with AM and staff and was a much better fit with AG and staff. Based on the large leap he made I'll always wonder what 4 years in AGs system would have done for him.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Wallage View Post
I know he drained ME emotionally. I thought I also saw that on the court.

Agree on your other points. He made a huge leap jr year to sr year. He just has holes in his game that hurt us. DD clearly didn't sync up well with AM and staff and was a much better fit with AG and staff. Based on the large leap he made I'll always wonder what 4 years in AGs system would have done for him.
LOL..Drained me, too....I'm sure more than a few of DD's TO's either expedited the momentum for opponents during a game and/or curtailed any momentum that UD had going so,naturally, players get deflated...I just know that the overall team defense was as bad as anything I've ever seen in my life at any level and, again, it wasn't great with Archie his last couple years..Luckily, we had Big Steve for the year he was there to protect the rim..
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by THirt View Post

Are there many guys in college basketball who can really guard Ethan Happ in the post, by the way? Are there many incoming freshmen who can do this? Are there any 2018 recruits who considered or are considering Dayton that you would feel comfortable putting on Happ in the post? I feel pretty good with a healthy, aggressive Josh Cunningham on him. We might find out how this plays out in about 5 months!

Anyway, sure, I'd love to have another big guy and a good backup PG for next year,
Grad transfers don't tie up a 2019 scholarship.
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:21 PM
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The A10 has some quality and incoming bigs

Hasahn French for St. Louis had a better freshman year statistically than Justin Tillman did for VCU.

Luis Santos a 6'8 250 PF transfer from South Florida who's eligible this season is receiving praise from Jon Rothstein on twitter after he sat in on their practices.

Carte'Are Gordon a 6'8 PF for the Bills is the highest ranked recruit to sign in the A10 in 4 years and had an offer from Kansas.

Through in Foreman and STL has a rugged front line
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:28 PM
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Langevine for Rhody is good and they're adding PF Jermaine Harris who's the #2 ranked recruit in the A10 (79th in the country).

Grant Golden at Richmond

Taylor Funk for St. Joes

The Euros for Davidson
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:16 PM
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Gosh, I'm thinking we shouldn't even suit up this year with all that bling coming in.

Then again, let's just see what happens on the court.
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Old 06-29-2018, 06:13 PM
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The wildcard in all this is Ryan Mikesell
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Old 06-29-2018, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Grad transfers don't tie up a 2019 scholarship.

On the one hand you have said we should have gone out and gotten a grad transfer big man, like it is easy. On the other hand you pointed out that all P5 schools are all over them. I guess it's not so easy.
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Old 06-29-2018, 06:48 PM
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Mikesell is the wildcard. Last year we started two freshman ; along with Trey, who the year before played walkon minutes. Josh had just come off a year long injury and DD was a part time starter and complimentary player. Our bench last year consisted of two freshman, who didn't quite cut it. This year we could have 5 starters who have experience, if Mikesell is now physically able. Two Sophs, 2 juniors and a senior. That's basically a veteran team, one year after basically losing your whole team.

The new players we've never seen but I believe its much improved over last years bench. How good can they be? Can't wait to find out.
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  #1161  
Old 06-29-2018, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
On the one hand you have said we should have gone out and gotten a grad transfer big man, like it is easy. On the other hand you pointed out that all P5 schools are all over them. I guess it's not so easy.
you missed my distinction. A backup vs a frontline starter. Good grad transfers do have the power conference teams all over them. That was in context of being able to find a guy to play 30 minutes a night to replace Josh

If you want a Tory Miller Stewart who went to Denver after some modest production at Colorado then that's doable

a grad transfer PG is a possibility

Last edited by OSU Flyer; 06-29-2018 at 06:55 PM..
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
you missed my distinction. A backup vs a frontline starter. Good grad transfers do have the power conference teams all over them. That was in context of being able to find a guy to play 30 minutes a night to replace Josh

If you want a Tory Miller Stewart who went to Denver after some modest production at Colorado then that's doable

a grad transfer PG is a possibility

So a grad transfer is going to come to UD to sit on the bench and be a "fill-in" instead of going to a place where he can get significant playing time? Not likely.
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
So a grad transfer is going to come to UD to sit on the bench and be a "fill-in" instead of going to a place where he can get significant playing time? Not likely.
Rasheed Anthony at St Louis land Ziegler at George Washington last season

For all a recruit knows, he comes in and plays he pushes Cunningham to the PF slot and is a starter
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  #1164  
Old 06-29-2018, 11:31 PM
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Loyola got a grad transfer from Carson Shanks a 7'0 center from North Dakota who sat the bench after Krutwig earned the starting center spot
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:35 PM
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Ryan Bass grad transfered to Dayton to be a back up PG to Scoochie
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  #1166  
Old 06-30-2018, 10:02 AM
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Jabali Leonard

In this discussion are we forgetting about UD's super academic walk-on back up point guard?
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  #1167  
Old 06-30-2018, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
In this discussion are we forgetting about UD's super academic walk-on back up point guard?
If you are counting on a walk on Freshman point guard, you are in trouble. Not saying AG is but even Scoochie and Crutcher struggled at times as Freshmen.
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  #1168  
Old 06-30-2018, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
In this discussion are we forgetting about UD's super academic walk-on back up point guard?
I'd assume Westerfield is ahead of him
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  #1169  
Old 06-30-2018, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
I'd assume Westerfield is ahead of him
Not likely at PG
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Old 06-30-2018, 05:35 PM
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Fellas Jhery Matos can be a back up point guard are you aware of that??
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Shawnee2 View Post
Fellas Jhery Matos can be a back up point guard are you aware of that??
I've been kind of assuming that Crutcher plays 30+ minutes a night and Cohill takes the other 10 minutes. Cohill spends the rest of his time on the court playing off the ball.
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  #1172  
Old 07-30-2018, 03:56 PM
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Ok, folks start to criticize me but I can not resist. There is this guy in Middletown Ohio who is a 2018 graduate. He looks way over weight, slow and can not jump. But, he is 6’9”/6’10” and 290 to 300 pounds. Is he still available for this year? Maybe if we put him on a no soda pop diet then maybe in February or March, he could play a few minutes of backup center? He needs to lose 50 pounds. Then maybe next year, he can be a slimmer model of himself? Is anybody opposed to this concept? His name is E. J. Williams. You guys know more than I do. What’s wrong with trying this approach with this guy? What is the scoop on this guy?
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Old 07-30-2018, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckleyma View Post
Ok, folks start to criticize me but I can not resist. There is this guy in Middletown Ohio who is a 2018 graduate. He looks way over weight, slow and can not jump. But, he is 6’9”/6’10” and 290 to 300 pounds. Is he still available for this year? Maybe if we put him on a no soda pop diet then maybe in February or March, he could play a few minutes of backup center? He needs to lose 50 pounds. Then maybe next year, he can be a slimmer model of himself? Is anybody opposed to this concept? His name is E. J. Williams. You guys know more than I do. What’s wrong with trying this approach with this guy? What is the scoop on this guy?
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Not sure whether he is the same guy as Tavis Ernest Williams who was arrested a month ago for attempted murder and robbery. It is listed as a tweet on his Verbal Commits page.

Something is up, as he had offers earlier from X and Toledo, and you look at his Youtube as a frosh, and he looks decent. Purdue also had a lot of interest.

Last edited by jack72; 07-30-2018 at 04:26 PM..
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  #1174  
Old 07-30-2018, 04:31 PM
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I would assume this isn't the same guy... Seeing how it happened in Miami-Dade, Florida... Also, the suspect is 19 and does not look close to 300 pounds. I'm disturbed that this tweet was linked in his verbal commits website.
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  #1175  
Old 07-30-2018, 05:01 PM
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Verbal Commits I think has some of time algorithm where it just posts tweets about any time that name comes up

I've seen it happen before with out recruits where their tweets about him is bringing up the same name but different person.
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  #1176  
Old 07-30-2018, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckleyma View Post
Ok, folks start to criticize me but I can not resist. There is this guy in Middletown Ohio who is a 2018 graduate. He looks way over weight, slow and can not jump. But, he is 6’9”/6’10” and 290 to 300 pounds. Is he still available for this year? Maybe if we put him on a no soda pop diet then maybe in February or March, he could play a few minutes of backup center? He needs to lose 50 pounds. Then maybe next year, he can be a slimmer model of himself? Is anybody opposed to this concept? His name is E. J. Williams. You guys know more than I do. What’s wrong with trying this approach with this guy? What is the scoop on this guy?
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I've been standing on the side lines in this offseason and I think with only about 3 weeks left till classes start, the opportunity to bring someone on line (who is better than a fill in role) has passed.

On to the season structured as we see it in the roster and look forward to receiving commits from recruits of 2019 & 2020.
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