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  #1  
Old 03-16-2016, 07:13 AM
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DDN: Revive Gem City Jam...

Piqua66's prayers have been answered! Either that or he's writing for the DDN.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...ity-jam/nqmLs/

"It’s always amusing to hear Dayton touted as some great college basketball town.If we’re interested in the truth, it’s really just a University of Dayton basketball town, all others be ****ed. Were the region deserving of its overblown reputation, UD would be playing crosstown rival Wright State — if not annually, then at least somewhat regularly. Were the region deserving of its overblown reputation, the community would demand it. But the area’s Division I universities have not clashed in men’s basketball since Dec. 13, 1997, and this shows no sign of changing as UD continues to oppose the revival of what was once known as the Gem City Jam...."
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:33 AM
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Can the "Gem City Jammers" at least wait until AFTER the season to start the annual off season topic of UD playing WSU.

On a different note, I noticed that the DDN thought there must be enough Xavier fans in Dayton to have one of their "Contributing writers" (read: DDN is to cheap to hire full time writers anymore) have a story on XU.

Just how tone deaf is the DDN? No, we don't care about Gem City Jam and, no, we don't care about XU.

We're not buying what you're trying to sell Kollars. And, BTW, stop biting the hand that feeds you by always trashing UD and its fans in your weekly little vengeance filled, small minded "column". Aren't you already losing enough subscribers?
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  #3  
Old 03-16-2016, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Can the "Gem City Jammers" at least wait until AFTER the season to start the annual off season topic of UD playing WSU.

On a different note, I noticed that the DDN thought there must be enough Xavier fans in Dayton to have one of their "Contributing writers" (read: DDN is to cheap to hire full time writers anymore) have a story on XU.

Just how tone deaf is the DDN? No, we don't care about Gem City Jam and, no, we don't care about XU.

We're not buying what you're trying to sell Kollars. And, BTW, stop biting the hand that feeds you by always trashing UD and its fans in your weekly little vengeance filled, small minded "column". Aren't you already losing enough subscribers?
Heard from reliable sources it isn't just his mind that is small......his hands too, just saying.
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
We're not buying what you're trying to sell Kollars.
It's Sean McClelland, not my buddy Kollars.

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/staff/sean-mcclelland/
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Can the "Gem City Jammers" at least wait until AFTER the season to start the annual off season topic of UD playing WSU.
THEIR season IS over.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:23 AM
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Yawn...
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:26 AM
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Since we lost two out of conference games to picking up two more league games makes this game nearly impossible to ever take place. Since making the NCAA Tournament has such a fine line, you need NCAA teams to make up your out of conference home and away games. Sorry Wright State and the DDN, this is just a fact.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:29 AM
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I could not possibly care less about the Gem City Jam. I assume most out of the area alumni/fans feel the same. I find the annual offseason debate mildly amusing.

The timing of this with the First Four when there is a bit more attention paid to the area is certainly not coincidental. It just makes me wonder if the writer really thought the national press would pick up on it and run with it. I can understand why locals might want it and certainly have no issue with it in that respect.

But on a national level, nobody cares.
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  #9  
Old 03-16-2016, 08:30 AM
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that horse they are beating must not be dead.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:34 AM
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So the fish wrap figured more people are in town and they'd get more eyeballs on thier junk story. I love this line...

"Imagine you just moved here from North Carolina, or even Cincinnati. Or you’re here for the First Four this week from some other basketball mecca. Chances are you simply assume the Flyers play the Raiders. Because the schools are 10 miles apart and that’s usually what happens when schools on similar competitive planes are that close together".

C'mon Man!!! You really think most people outside of Ohio know which city Wright State is in. Sure more will know leading up to and after the Presidential Debate. For now and basketball wise not many know and if they're from a basketball mecca they won't give a darn to know.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
It's Sean McClelland, not my buddy Kollars.

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/staff/sean-mcclelland/
I wasn't specifically calling out Kollars for this story, more about his incessant bashing of UD in his weekly column. Also, since he is the sports editor, I'm sure he has an oversized influence in what gets space on a daily basis. The XU article today tells me the DDN either doesn't "get" that no one cares about X, OR, they are intentionally poking the bear that make up a majority of their readers...UD fans.

Either way, my perception is your buddy really doesn't like UD and that ain't good for his business when long time subscribers like myself feel that way. Next time you see him ask him if my perception is wrong. Feel free to PM me with his response.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:05 AM
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No one cares from the looks of Wright States attendance and post season appearances,there fans dont care either.A local sports-talk host who use to be on use to bring this topic on alot.Got a lot of reaction,but i love the ones that said UD was afraid to play WSU.Sorry to hurt there feelings but right now the programs aren't even close.They won 20 games this year and sitting home again,what does that say.There fans don't even show up.This is a basketball town ,we have high school teams that out draw WSU you think maybe its might be the team they put out there or maybe how they promote it.I have gone to a couple of games no atmosphere and students could care less.UD has bigger fish to fry sometimes the truth hurts.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:06 AM
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UD

is further removed from the Gem City Jam than at any time in their history. IMHO there is just no reason for the game to be played that benefits the Flyers. For Flyer fans these are the good old days.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:21 AM
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As predictable as the swallows returning to Capistrano.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:23 AM
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He's right, this is NOT a college basketball mecca, it is a UD basketball mecca. We support the first 4 because it helps UD, UD's visibility, UD Arena, and the UD campus. Hold this event at the Yawn House (Nutter) and I'll bet less than 5K show up.

Did he expect me to disagree? Sorry to disappoint.

Wright State draws just over 4,000 fans per game, 2,000 of which don't show up to use their tickets. If Dayton was a "college basketball mecca" then WSU would draw fans. THEY DON'T.

We are UD. No one gives a rat's tail about a mediocre program.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
So the fish wrap figured more people are in town and they'd get more eyeballs on thier junk story. I love this line...

"Imagine you just moved here from North Carolina, or even Cincinnati. Or you’re here for the First Four this week from some other basketball mecca. Chances are you simply assume the Flyers play the Raiders. Because the schools are 10 miles apart and that’s usually what happens when schools on similar competitive planes are that close together".
"Similar competitive planes" are the three key words. I live in North Carolina, and no you do not see Duke, NC and State playing North Carolina Central, a D1 school 10-20 miles away, on a regular basis.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:33 AM
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Here's what I get from reading this:

"Waaah, we're Wright State fans who missed the NCAA tournament AGAIN by choking in the final of our league tournament AGAIN, so let's get angry and try to take UD down with us!"

This is like a little boy who keeps tugging at his mom's apron for attention. "What do you want? Yes, that's a nice truck Billy. Let me get back to my important work now."
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Also, since he is the sports editor

He hasn't been sports editor for 2 years...he still writes a Sunday sports column but his main job is the running the investigative team.


Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Either way, my perception is your buddy really doesn't like UD and that ain't good for his business when long time subscribers like myself feel that way. Next time you see him ask him if my perception is wrong. Feel free to PM me with his response.
Your perception is your reality. If the King can't change that, neither can my buddy.
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:08 AM
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Piqua is waking up today and must think it's Christmas
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  #20  
Old 03-16-2016, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
Piqua is waking up today and must think it's Christmas
April Fool's Day!
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:38 AM
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In all these years, I don't think I've commented here on the Gem City Jam.

Here's my take on it:

Wright State, go away and come back the day you qualify for an at large NCAA bid or even are close to the wrong side of the bubble and maybe we'll talk. UD has nothing to gain and a lot to lose by playing you any time. We don't need to add a team to our regular schedule who's RPI makes any loss against them a terrible loss while that team spends their whole year trying to find a plan to take down the Flyers. If your team beats ours, it's party time for you like you won the NCAA championship. When our team beats yours it's just a relief.

UD values tradition. So if you want to bring up Miami, understand that this rivalry goes back a long way. Miami has also had a history of some success in basketball's greatest tournaments. So if we have to put dangerous local landmines on our schedule, we're going to keep it to the bare minimum and the RedHawks beat you out in the hierarchy.

When the Flyers were down, nobody came around to prop them up as a favor. The UD basketball program worked their way back up without any charity from other basketball programs. You need to do the same.

Last edited by Smitty10; 03-16-2016 at 10:41 AM..
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
Because the schools are 10 miles apart and that’s usually what happens when schools on similar competitive planes are that close together.
I don't think WSU fans even believe that.
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Old 03-16-2016, 10:56 AM
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Watch the Will Wade video in another thread...he explains perfectly why it doesn't behoove schools like UD to play home and homes with schools like Beavercreek Community College
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:04 AM
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Very well said like i said i hear no outcry from any UD fans for this game to be played and not hearing much from WSU fans cause they dont have that many.How many times has WSU won over 20 games and sit home,there is a reason for that,Guess what it is ? No fan support simple as that UD built there program build your own..Biggest thing i hear Wright St. is a young program how many alumni do you have,do they show,do your students,Also hear UD fans are all blue hairs,better look again.i could really care less if they play i will go watch them play i was at all the others and one thing i do know UD fans outnumbered WSU fans 3 to1 at the arena and Nutter.And i hear talk of one for one not going to happen.UD is shooting for bigger things and have made great strides in getting there ,and more is on the way.Sorry DDN Wright St isn't in those plans.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:25 AM
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I posted the following in the ST. Bony got screwed thread regarding the St. Bony schedule. Notice how I put lines above and below my original post, like read between the lines.

Well this is where it actually belongs, I just did not want to bring up the topic again during the season, or forever for that matter. NO WRIGHT STATE.

__________________________________________________ ___________
You are correct. This is what happens when you play all the instate schools in your out of OOC. Binghampton, canisius, Hofstra, Buffalo, Sienna, Niagra, and a road game at Syracuse. 4-3 record

Glad UD does not use a similar scheduling model!
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
that horse they are beating must not be dead.
As someone once told me: "There's no cat so flat you can't run over it again."
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:50 PM
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IIRC UD has never said they won't play WSU, they just won't play home and home. WSU has no interest in playing Dayton as a buy team. That, IMO, puts this whole "Gem City Jam" crap on WSU's shoulders.
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:58 PM
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FYI ... WSU just fired Donlon.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:10 PM
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Supposedly he was fired because of his inability to get UD on the schedule.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:29 PM
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Wright State is not serious about playing big time basketball. Turning down opportunities to play in post season tournaments constantly shows the University is not serious in making the investment needed to move the program forward. Then firing a good coach in Billy Donlon. What a mess.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:31 PM
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IMO Donlon is a good coach. Lacked talent overall but it has to be tough trying to recruit players to a commuter school. WSU obviously can't offer the campus life of some of the MAC schools in Ohio(Miami, OH, Kent, BG).
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
FYI ... WSU just fired Donlon.
Crap...there goes Archie!
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  #33  
Old 03-16-2016, 03:57 PM
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Oh look it's this thread again!
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  #34  
Old 03-16-2016, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
FYI ... WSU just fired Donlon.
curious to see who they'll get better ... we worry about UD being a stepping stone. they hoped donlon would be another archie or brad stevens. i still think you go young with upside vs. a lifer like Jim Crews.

-- nutter center is *nice* but going on 25 years old
-- commuter school in small conference for weak fan support
-- no tradition beyond the late ralph underhill

here's their "donoher center", built in 2005:
http://www.wsuraiders.com/PhotoAlbum...B_OEM_ID=27000

hard to believe Horizon is the old MCC where dayton & xavier started ... how times have changed.

i wish wright state luck. if they could sustain at the level of a Valpo or Butler, maybe we'd have something to discuss -- 2-for-1 perhaps? they're prolly too proud to agree to a buy game, and schedule strength is too precious for us.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:20 PM
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Donlan will probably end up at St. Louis and turn out to be a real pain.
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  #36  
Old 03-16-2016, 04:22 PM
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was this recent outburst held against donlon, or just symptomatic that he doesn't play well with others? 23-15, finished ahead of pre-season rankings ... something broke behind the scenes. is it friday yet? :-)

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/new...-league/nqfP8/
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:27 PM
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I read a Dan Dakich tweet that the AD told him before the year, win the Horizon or your out.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:28 PM
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Stalking the Wright State Board

I found humor in this post. I swear I have seen it somewhere before, only with different schools listed.

Here we go again...

Every off-season...

Why won't Dayton play us...
When will we get a new coach...
When will our OOC schedule not suck peanuts...
When can we kick YSU and UIC out of the league...
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:29 PM
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People mention the Gem City Jam as if there is a lengthy history between UD and WSU. They don't mention that the teams have only played 8 times. That's it!
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  #40  
Old 03-16-2016, 05:01 PM
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This is funny for me because just a few days ago I was thinking that it had been a long time since the clowns at the DDN had revived the Gem City Jam cries.

I don't want anything to do with playing WSU in an ongoing home and away series, absolutely nothing. It simply brings nothing of value to the Flyers program with the current makeup of their program.

I watched the Horizon final and was actually rooting for the Raiders. It was the first time I've watched them in years. I wasn't impressed. A group of very hard working players and well coached, but they just lacked talent and athleticism. Just not an enjoyable game to watch. Not trying to knock them, just being honest.

Move along, nothing to see here.

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Old 03-16-2016, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
It's Sean McClelland, not my buddy Kollars.

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/staff/sean-mcclelland/
His first profile line says it all....

Originally Posted by Sean McClelland
McClelland grew up in Cleveland embedded in a losing sports culture....
Let that sink in....
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  #42  
Old 03-16-2016, 05:24 PM
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They probably need to increase the salary that they offer a potential head coach. I am not sure where Donlon's salary ranked in the HL. I am not sure what else they need to do in order to field a winner.

And I am not sure that firing Donlon is the right move, they have gone to the HL championship 3 out of the last 4 years, that is much, much better than they have ever done. They have only made the NCAAT twice ever, and they have zero NIT's.

Their facilities are probably #1 in the Horizon League...the Nutter Center and the practice facility that they have next to the Nutter Center are probably nicer and better than what any of the other schools in the HL have.

Also, while their attendance is well below UD's, their attendance is probably near the top of the HL.

I thought I heard that the WSU community(professors, staff, maybe students, etc.)was opposed to paying the men's basketball coach a bunch of money. They are just going to have to bite the bullet on that issue if they really want to win. Winning is not cheap.

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Old 03-16-2016, 05:32 PM
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I like Donlon a lot...anyone who can make WSU competitive in the Horizon is a genius. From an officials viewpoint, he's very intense...to the point of always walking the fine line between 'sit down' and 'shut up'.

But that's OK...it's a good intensity.
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Old 03-16-2016, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
Piqua is waking up today and must think it's Martin Luther King Day
Fixed your post
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:49 PM
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The Journal-Herald > DDN pre merger. See folks this is why the local fish wrap brought this crap up. Obviously with all of the assistant coaches in town and the fish wrap knowing what was about to go down at said local school, the potential new coache(s) get to see some of the city and feel the vibe while the fish wrap dictates the perception. The fish wrap letting "assistant coaches" know that said school is right here and don't worry you won't the big fish in this city right now is not a coincidence.

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Old 03-16-2016, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
The Journal-Herald > DDN pre merger. See folks this is why the local fish wrap brought this crap up. Obviously with all of the assistant coaches in town and the fish wrap knowing what was about to go down at said local school, the potential new coache(s) get to see some of the city and feel the vibe while the fish wrap dictates the perception. The fish wrap letting "assistant coaches" know that said school is right here and don't worry you won't the big fish in this city right now is not a coincidence.
Having trouble understanding the post.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:02 PM
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I'd feel sorry for the horse BUT that horse died a-long time ago

So what they must be doing is burning the glue that they got from that poor horse!

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Old 03-16-2016, 09:14 PM
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i don't know how to find th data, but wasn't the attendance for the last couple of UD-WSU games in the 90s pretty abysmal? look, i get that things like this are pretty cool in the right circumstances. XU vs UC, big 5 in Philly, et al, but this game makes no real world sense except in the delusions of a few.
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:18 PM
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Sean McClelland

Gosh it is poor journalism or just sensationalist journalism when the words 'when schools on similar competitive level' are used?

Maybe the words are there to incite some reaction?

Well that is what happened ... but it an't changing the status of that dead horse "Gemless City Jam".

The only thing he got right was this is a University of Dayton basketball mecca! And over the course of the last 3 years that is what the national sports news talks about ... much more and certainly nothing less.

End of Story.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:22 PM
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On the Donlon subject, I hope Wright State didn't cut him loose. I can understand if their men's hoops program has developed a bit of an inferiority complex, but firing a guy who got you to 3 league championship games in 4 years doesn't seem to be a recipe for success. I don't watch enough WSU hoops to say whether or not his teams are well-coached and/or have a sufficient talent level. I just suspect that, if he's really fired, he won't be unemployed for long.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by AC91 View Post
i don't know how to find th data, but wasn't the attendance for the last couple of UD-WSU games in the 90s pretty abysmal?
I believe the last game, which was at UD Arena, drew about 11,500. This was during the wonderful Marvin Rogers/Susan Vinella DDN hubbub.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I like Donlon a lot...anyone who can make WSU competitive in the Horizon is a genius.
WSU leads the HL in attendance and probably has close to the nicest facilities. Northern Kentucky has a real nice new arena.

Seems like it is hard to expect a whole lot though when the attendance is somewhat weak, so I am not sure that you can say that their program is underachieving a whole lot.

They would be underachieving if they were putting 10,000 in the Nutter Center every game, but they are not filling the Nutter Center, so it seems unfair to expect significantly better results.

2015 HL attendance:

Wright St. 4,510
Green Bay 3,581
Milwaukee 3,134
Valparaiso 3,066
Ill. Chicago 2,913
Detroit 2,539
Oakland 2,273
Youngstown St. 2,039
North. Kentucky 2,016
Cleveland St. 1,996



I am not sure how much they are willing to pay for a head coach, I would think that their ultimate goal is to become the next Butler.

Brad Brownell had a good resume when he was hired, 2 NCAA's in 4 years at UNC Wilmington, I think that he had a conflict with the UNCW AD and left, he might have wanted a raise or a contract extension, and the AD would not give him what he wanted, so he left for WSU...I heard that Tom Crean was once interested in the WSU job way back when, so they missed out on him.

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Old 03-17-2016, 04:32 AM
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Who wants to play a team so small time they give their coach an ultimatum of winning the conference and then fire him for ONLY making it to the championship game?
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Old 03-17-2016, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
Who wants to play a team so small time they give their coach an ultimatum of winning the conference and then fire him for ONLY making it to the championship game?
And Dan Dakich is saying that, if the NABC had any "manhood", there would be a boycott of applicants for the WSU job. Granted, he does have a slight bit of negative history with the WSU AD.

Archdeacon and Morrison both have columns about it in today's DDN. Arch reported that a big time WSU donor was vocal to Grant (WSU AD) about the team's repeated failure to make the NCAA tournament, and that this person blamed Donlon for it. He also reported that WSU paid Donlon's assistants so that they were among the lowest-paid in the Horizon, and that WSU was 1 of 3 schools in the HL that didn't have a full-time strength & conditioning coach.

Seems to me that you reap what you sow, and that WSU didn't give Donlon much in the way of seed, and that they waited until this past week to dish-out the fertilizer. With support like that, it'll be another 19 years before WSU will be at a level that a crosstown regular season matchup makes sense for UD.

If then.
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Old 03-17-2016, 07:50 AM
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I'm speechless...

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
WSU was 1 of 3 schools in the HL that didn't have a full-time strength & conditioning coach.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:21 AM
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Dayton is a great basketball town, it just chooses wisely what it prefers to watch. UD always had great attendance, and WSU, even under Ralph, never did. Explain that in non-political terms. I've heard the alumni age angle used in WSU's favor before but I don't see WSU's attendance getting any better as theirs ages. Excuses.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
And Dan Dakich is saying that, if the NABC had any "manhood", there would be a boycott of applicants for the WSU job. Granted, he does have a slight bit of negative history with the WSU AD.

Archdeacon and Morrison both have columns about it in today's DDN. Arch reported that a big time WSU donor was vocal to Grant (WSU AD) about the team's repeated failure to make the NCAA tournament, and that this person blamed Donlon for it. He also reported that WSU paid Donlon's assistants so that they were among the lowest-paid in the Horizon, and that WSU was 1 of 3 schools in the HL that didn't have a full-time strength & conditioning coach.
That boycott idea seems very harsh, I'm not taking sides on Donlon's firing, but it is not like Donlon was not given a fair chance, he had 6 seasons to get WSU to the NCAAT, and he did not get it done.

Yeah, he did not have a strength and conditioning coach, and I guess the assistants were not paid well, but the other coaches in the HL did not have the Nutter Center and the Setzer Pavilion/Mills Morgan Center and league-leading attendance.

Every job has pluses and minuses.

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Old 03-17-2016, 08:58 AM
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They might want to look at one of Archie's assistants...they could certainly do worse than that...not sure if pride would prevent them from going that route.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:24 AM
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I can't believe they fired Donlon. They had their fair share of problems, some they couldn't control like injuries, some they could kind of control w/ off the court issues, and they never seemed like the most talented bunch, even going back to the Brownell days, but Donlon seemingly always had them peaking at the right time, near the end of the season.

Part of me was thinking he might generate some interest from other schools looking to make a coaching change, but not willing to dish out huge money.
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:01 AM
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I wonder if it goes deeper than just the MBB team. I have a friend that plays tennis for Wright State and he told me that the entire season is on the brink of being cancelled.
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:12 AM
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Archie comments on the Donlon firing

"College basketball is very difficult right now,” University of Dayton coach Archie Miller said when informed of Donlon’s firing. “Billy did a tremendous job, not only this season, but with three appearances in their conference title game.
“That’s hard,” he added. “You never want to see guys who have to do this lose their jobs. There are guys on my staff who have lost their job before. It’s a really tough business to navigate. That’s why you’ve got to be really thankful when you’ve got a good situation.​”

Let's hope he is very thankful with his current situation.

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Old 03-17-2016, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Archie comments on the Donlon firing

"College basketball is very difficult right now,” University of Dayton coach Archie Miller said when informed of Donlon’s firing. “Billy did a tremendous job, not only this season, but with three appearances in their conference title game.
“That’s hard,” he added. “You never want to see guys who have to do this lose their jobs. There are guys on my staff who have lost their job before. It’s a really tough business to navigate. That’s why you’ve got to be really thankful when you’ve got a good situation.​”

Let's hope he is very thankful with his current situation.
When the story was on the late local news last night, my wife heard Archie's comment as he was interviewed about the Donlon situation, and she said, "Sounds like he knows he has a pretty good situation." I believe he does, and I know the Faithful appreciate having him as coach. As long as UD gives him the resources they can afford to give him, we stand to keep him until the true dream job opens. Plus, he just needs to look at his 2 immediate predecessors for a lesson on the "grass is greener" theory as it relates to settling for a middling P5 program.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:02 AM
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I think Archie is very thankful of his current situation ,he says it every chance he gets.Wright State is a train wreck, there students don't care,and the people who run the school don't care.They are what the are.Instead of trying to be UD be there own program.They aren't UD not even close.Billy was and is a heck of a coach,and this comes from a big flyer fan,he is the only thing their program had going for them As far as UD playing a game and give the money to a local charity sorry Raiders UD could bring in alot better draw then the Raiders.And as far as the Dayton paper wanting this game the people who matter the fans don't want it don't care and are not calling for it.If they were it would happen.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:07 AM
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NABC doesn't need a boycott. Heck if you were an up and coming head coach
would you want to go to WSU seeing the lack of institutional commitment? Would you feel comfortable unless you get a lot of money and years to follow Donlon?

The real up and comers are going to pass on the opportunity and wait for something better. WSU is going to be selecting from the more desperate.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:17 AM
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Only real difference between Brownell and Donlon was the one NCAA bid. You have to toss out last year's record because of the crazy injuries they had. Do that and the coaching resume's aren't much different once you count league standings, conference tourney performance, etc.

WSUs problem is they have Ferrari taste on a Ford budget. They want all the perks of a big-time winning program, but don't want to do all the things necessary to get there. That means no longer scheduling D-II programs, paying assistants, strong leadership from the suits, aggressive marketing and ticketing, etc.

They have a pronounced disadvantage because they are the Mets in a Yankee town. That makes some of what they do more difficult. But coaching isnt their problem. UD is successful because its a holistic approach to winning. Its never any one thing. Its somehow finding a way to get the band to Orlando. It's the First Four marketing the university. It's attendance. It's playing the RPI game during off-season scheduling. Just hiring Archie or any competent coach isn't enough. Takes a village.

Kentucky doesn't win because of Calipari. He helps. But Kentucky won under Joe. B. Hall. Kentucky wins because they are Kentucky -- about 50 things all working together to create the culture.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:27 AM
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http://uicflames.proboards.com/thread/2422


This is pretty old data, at the time, it seems like overall that WSU was on the upper end of the scale in the HL.

The recruiting budget was dead last though.


Horizon League expenses

(All data from the 2008-09 season as reported to the Horizon League by each school)

Men’s basketball

Head coaches salaries
1. Gary Waters, Cleveland State, $415,000
2. Rob Jeter, UWM, $411,537
3. Brad Brownell, Wright State, $365,000
4. Jimmy Collins, UIC, $349,027
5. Brad Stevens, Butler, $308,264
6. Jim Whitesell, Loyola, $283,250
7. Ray McCallum, Detroit, $275,000
8. Homer Drew, Valparaiso, $246,100
9. Tod Kowalczyk, UWGB, $175,688
10. Jerry Slocum, YSU, $122,003

Notes: Kowalczyk’s base salary was $133,132 plus $15,000 for media appearances. The $175,688 total included money from what UWGB athletic director Ken Bothof called “men’s basketball development dollars.” New UWGB coach Brian Wardle signed a five-year deal with the same base salary of $133,132 plus $70,000 from “external sources.” … The Indianapolis Star reported that Stevens’ base pay for that season was $395,000, but Butler is a private school and therefore isn’t subject to open records laws. Stevens’ total pay for that season was believed to be $600,000, and in April he signed a new, 12-year contract that is believed to pay him at least $1 million per year.

Coaching staff salaries
1. UIC $328,912 (Assistants: $129,500, $112,200, $51,000; director of operations: $36,212)
2. Detroit $260,000 (Assistants: $85,000, $70,000, $70,000; director of operations: $35,000)
3. Loyola $241,925 (Assistants: $88,000, $70,000, $50,125; director of operations: $33,800)
4. Butler $231,225 (Assistants: $90,528, $80,212, $37,433; director of operations: $23,052)
5. UWM $224,345 (Assistants: $73,673, $62,423, $60,305; director of operations: $27,944)
6. Wright State $220,638 (Assistants: $72,100, $64,890, $53,672; director of operations: $29,976)
7. Cleveland State $211,200 (Assistants: $78,750, $53,000, $45,150; director of operations: $34,300)
8. UWGB $184,198 (Assistants: $63,837, $63,000, $47,661; director of operations: $9,700)
9. Youngstown State $183,936 (Assistants: $58,633, $53,303, $32,000; director of operations: $40,000)
10. Valparaiso $125,660 (Assistants: $50,100; $36,100; $27,100; director of operations: $12,360)

Recruiting budgets
1. Detroit $80,899
2. UWM $70,000
3. Butler $59,644
4. Valparaiso $56,000
5. Youngstown State $55,000
6. Loyola $52,000
T7. UWGB $35,000
T7. UIC $35,000
9. Cleveland State $34,000
10. Wright State $30,800

Travel budgets
1. UWM $181,900
2. UIC $165,113
3. Valparaiso $143,700
4. Detroit $120,00
5. Butler $115,000
6. Wright State $111,400
7. Youngstown State $105,000
8. UWGB $100,500
9. Loyola $80,000
10. Cleveland State $65,000
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:27 PM
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I'm up for a jam, can't say I was in 91-95. Problem is that outside of the Miami Valley nobody gives a ****. It doesn't pay in revenue, exposure, RPI ... probably not even in coca colas sold. UD is trying to get to other levels so i don't blame them at all for ignoring.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
I wonder if it goes deeper than just the MBB team. I have a friend that plays tennis for Wright State and he told me that the entire season is on the brink of being cancelled.
Wow! Is that "club" tennis or NCAA D-I tennis? If it's "club", then no big deal. If it's NCAA, then that would be a mild shock. When have you ever heard of an NCAA, scholarship program cancelling a season?

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Old 03-17-2016, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
They might want to look at one of Archie's assistants...they could certainly do worse than that...not sure if pride would prevent them from going that route.
Would rather they pull an assistant from "that school down south".
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
WSU leads the HL in attendance and probably has close to the nicest facilities. Northern Kentucky has a real nice new arena.

Seems like it is hard to expect a whole lot though when the attendance is somewhat weak, so I am not sure that you can say that their program is underachieving a whole lot.

They would be underachieving if they were putting 10,000 in the Nutter Center every game, but they are not filling the Nutter Center, so it seems unfair to expect significantly better results.

2015 HL attendance:

Wright St. 4,510
Green Bay 3,581
Milwaukee 3,134
Valparaiso 3,066
Ill. Chicago 2,913
Detroit 2,539
Oakland 2,273
Youngstown St. 2,039
North. Kentucky 2,016
Cleveland St. 1,996



I am not sure how much they are willing to pay for a head coach, I would think that their ultimate goal is to become the next Butler.

Brad Brownell had a good resume when he was hired, 2 NCAA's in 4 years at UNC Wilmington, I think that he had a conflict with the UNCW AD and left, he might have wanted a raise or a contract extension, and the AD would not give him what he wanted, so he left for WSU...I heard that Tom Crean was once interested in the WSU job way back when, so they missed out on him.
I went to one WSU game this season. Got tickets two rows from center court ten minutes before tipoff. During a timeout I counted the fans in the most crowded section across the way. There were 173 fans. Nutter has 24 sections. Some were totally empty. All others far less than 173. Total was likely closer to 1500 than the announced 4500. Other than the band I could find no student section at all.

If WSU's own fans don't care, there's no way UD should do one thing to carry them, other than perhaps to be a polite neighbor. Give them a game? No way.
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:35 AM
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Firing Donlon is ridiculous. He has really done a good job there.

As for the game - I just don't care. Don't care if they play. Don't care if they do. One thing I would not do is give up a home and home for it.

As to the idea that teams close together play, and anyone moving to Dayton would expect the game - well a little research might be in order. Some do and some don't. Anyone know the last time Gtown scheduled GW. Who does Ohio State schedule.
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:21 AM
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Revive the what?
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Old 03-18-2016, 09:42 AM
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Brian Kollars and the WSU basketball program are similarly un-skilled.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:42 AM
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As bad as McClelland is - Archdeacon is great writer.

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Old 03-24-2016, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by UD90 View Post
As bad as McClelland is - Archdeacon is great writer.

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/new...=ddn_skip_stub
And Mark Vest is exactly right when he references Chris Mack's comment that sums up the whole situation.

“I don’t know who Wright State is pretending to be or trying to be, but that’s ridiculous.” Chris Mack
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  #76  
Old 03-24-2016, 08:13 AM
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No puppy baby monkey for them! Fans and coaches alike are not falling in love with an insanely bad choice? But hey if the wind's blowing just right in this basketball town they can say they smell like a top 50 program too! Go Flyers!!
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:05 AM
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Maybe Vest is the new coach?

How about the Flyers play at WSU every New Years Eve?

Oh wait, that night is taken by the Globetrotters and Generals.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:04 PM
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I don't think Wright State's decision to get rid of Donlon was necessarily because of his performance. It wasn't great, but it was good enough for him to keep his job. It wasn't really because of any sort of scandal either. I think there were certain frustrations and criticisms that were pointed out over and over and over again, but that did not change. Nothing illegal, or scandalous, or anything like that. Just some general frustrations that grew and grew and grew as it was pointed out but not addressed over and over and over. His record was good. He is a good coach. But, I think it got to a point to where they felt they could get someone who could do as well or better, and perhaps without the frustrations. They have been a consistent contender in the Horizon League, and it is likely that they will continue to be once a new coach is hired. Hell, maybe one of these years they'll actually finally win the **** thing.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:08 PM
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Is it dead yet?

As far as the firing of Donlon, perhaps this best describes the program now:



With regard to reviving the discussion again:

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Old 03-24-2016, 12:30 PM
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Rollo, you've been warned by two mods now
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Rollo, you've been warned by two mods now
Were they Royal Mods , Progressive Mods or Islamic Mods?
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
I think there were certain frustrations and criticisms that were pointed out over and over and over again, but that did not change. Nothing illegal, or scandalous, or anything like that. Just some general frustrations that grew and grew and grew as it was pointed out but not addressed over and over and over.
Like what? Or are you just guessing?
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
I don't think Wright State's decision to get rid of Donlon was necessarily because of his performance. It wasn't great, but it was good enough for him to keep his job. It wasn't really because of any sort of scandal either. I think there were certain frustrations and criticisms that were pointed out over and over and over again, but that did not change. Nothing illegal, or scandalous, or anything like that. Just some general frustrations that grew and grew and grew as it was pointed out but not addressed over and over and over. His record was good. He is a good coach. But, I think it got to a point to where they felt they could get someone who could do as well or better, and perhaps without the frustrations. They have been a consistent contender in the Horizon League, and it is likely that they will continue to be once a new coach is hired. Hell, maybe one of these years they'll actually finally win the **** thing.
Short of anything, as you say, illegal or scandalous, I'm not sure what the frustrations could have been. If anything, Donlon should be the one who is/was frustrated. That is, unless his job description included duties as Sports Information Director, Marketing, and PR. That, and by virtue of the fact that his assistants were among the lowest in the HL in compensation. All of the above I'm sure will be addressed by Bob Grant when hiring the new coach.

Meanwhile, maybe he can define "fan engagement"...
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Old 03-24-2016, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Were they Royal Mods , Progressive Mods or Islamic Mods?
Tony didn't touch it so royalty is out. I've been warned by both those other guys before. Have a feeling Swamp could hurl a red pip from hither to yon and hit whichever peasant he pleased. In his sleep.
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Old 03-24-2016, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Like what? Or are you just guessing?
Like I said, I THINK that's what it was. More than a guess, but less than certain.

Last edited by xubrew; 03-24-2016 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by xubrew View Post
Like I said, I THINK that's what it was. More than a guess, but less than certain.
So I guess you can't answer the question of WHAT the frustrations and criticisms were.
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
So I guess you can't answer the question of WHAT the frustrations and criticisms were.
Since I'm not certain I'm not going to get into the specifics of what it may be. And, I really don't think it matters. If you think they were dissatisfied with three 20+ seasons and conference championship games in the last four years I won't argue with you. I suppose that could have been it.

Last edited by xubrew; 03-24-2016 at 02:13 PM..
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Tony didn't touch it so royalty is out. I've been warned by both those other guys before. Have a feeling Swamp could hurl a red pip from hither to yon and hit whichever peasant he pleased. In his sleep.
The next "red pip" that I issue will be the first red pip that I impart.

While we are on the subject, a big TY to the anonymous dishrag who red pipped me for trying to get the Transfer thread back on topic. Whoever you are, I ain't your dad.
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  #89  
Old 03-24-2016, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
The next "red pip" that I issue will be the first red pip that I impart.

While we are on the subject, a big TY to the anonymous dishrag who red pipped me for trying to get the Transfer thread back on topic. Whoever you are, I ain't your dad.
This comment if 100% off-topic...you're in violation of your own policy. Or are you exempt?
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Old 03-24-2016, 03:21 PM
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So the gem city jam is between UD and CSU, right? WSU is in Fairborn, they will probably want to be included too.
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Old 03-24-2016, 03:43 PM
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So the gem city jam is between UD and CSU, right? WSU is in Fairborn, they will probably want to be included too.
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
The next "red pip" that I issue will be the first red pip that I impart.
Ohh Swampy, I wish you hadn't said that. See, I take pride in receiving someone's first red pip. But when dealing with someone on the UDPRIDE staff, I'm afraid that it's too fine of line between red pip and banned.
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:36 PM
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Back on topic....

There's zero need to play WSU. For that matter, it's time to toss the Miami game, and go on the road and play a power 5. If we are going to be considered, we need to schedule "up". Might as well see how we compare early in the year, and great experience for the team.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Back on topic....

There's zero need to play WSU. For that matter, it's time to toss the Miami game, and go on the road and play a power 5. If we are going to be considered, we need to schedule "up". Might as well see how we compare early in the year, and great experience for the team.
Don't disagree....but the SOS and RPI isn't hurting us and didn't hurt us. The failure to close out the regular season hampered this teams final results.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
The next "red pip" that I issue will be the first red pip that I impart.

While we are on the subject, a big TY to the anonymous dishrag who red pipped me for trying to get the Transfer thread back on topic. Whoever you are, I ain't your dad.
Hey Swamp, if 'red pipping' were a pick-up game of basketball you'd no doubt make it your biatch, but why the vitriol for the one directed toward you? Did it hurt? Even your reputation? While we're coming clean, Swamp, how many posts have you deleted to your zero pip score over the years?
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Old 03-25-2016, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Back on topic....

There's zero need to play WSU. For that matter, it's time to toss the Miami game, and go on the road and play a power 5. If we are going to be considered, we need to schedule "up". Might as well see how we compare early in the year, and great experience for the team.
I've always heard the various reasons why tOSU and UD don't play but if there is another in-state program to start a series with I would prefer it to be scheduled with Ohio U.
Don't think they would hurt our SoS as much as some patsies on our schedule. Don't need buy-games if the objective is getting an at-large bid. Say good-bye to the SVSU's.
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Old 03-25-2016, 09:38 AM
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I don't see any need to start an in-state home and home with any schools other than Xavier, Cincinnati or Ohio State. And none of those three have any interest in scheduling UD home and home.
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Old 03-25-2016, 09:57 AM
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Games like this are really the best way to manipulate the RPI. It would take multiple teams in a conference to go along with it, but it would certainly work.

Forget Dayton playing them because I know they won't. This is why I would want Xavier to play at Wright State or at NKU every year. In the adjusted RPI you get 0.6 for a home win. And, when the committee looks at your buy games, they're virtually completely meaningless. But, for a road win, you get 1.4 wins. That's more than twice the credit.

Now, there is a reason you get twice the credit. In most road games, teams have two things working against them. One is the atmosphere, and the other is not being familiar with the venue. That's why after years of data analysis Gary Johnson and CO. at the NCAA determined that was the weighted difference.

But, if Xavier were to play at Wright State or NKU, half of those disadvantages would go away. At worst it would be a split crowd. Most likely, the majority of the crowd would favor Xavier even though they were technically the road team. Also, it's a game that Xavier easily wins at least 80 percent of the time, and that's a conservative estimate. So, if you have a 99 percent chance of getting 0.6, or an 80 percent chance of getting 1.4, the numbers favor the latter every single time. These are actually fairly easy road games to win, especially when you compare it to the other types of road games that we play.

Now, what if EVERYONE in the Big East did this?? The conference would basically collectively add ten total wins, all road games, to the adjusted portion of the RPI, and they would do this by doing something that really isn't that hard to do. Hell, even if two or three teams lost the games, the league still collectively comes out ahead in the end. You end up with more top fifty teams, and more opportunities for top fifty wins in conference.

Bottom line is that if you get the chance to play a road game where you don't have the actual disadvantages of most road games, but still get the same mathematical rewards for winning it as if you did, then it's in your favor to play it.

These games fade into the background even if you lose them. No one really thinks about how GW beat Virginia or how Milwaukee beat Wisconsin. Even if they do, they're just dismissed as being games that GW and Milwaukee got way jacked up for and won. The upside far outweighs the downside, especially if an entire conference were to collectively do it.
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Old 03-25-2016, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I don't see any need to start an in-state home and home with any schools other than Xavier, Cincinnati or Ohio State. And none of those three have any interest in scheduling UD home and home.
I hear you but we can wish in one hand and hope in the other. We don't need to schedule patsies when we can put our big-boy britches on and play a home&home with a good MAC school instead of the loser that typically heads up our schedule.
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:15 AM
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Yes, I would rather watch UD play OU in Athens on tv than watch UD play Saginaw Valley St U. at UD Arena.
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