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  #301  
Old 11-18-2017, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post

Here's one for you. Every time that Xavier moved up in conference it has benefited them. Every time that UD moved into that same conference it has benefited us. It's obvious that once again Xavier benefited by moving up once again. Why would the same not be true for us this time?
Heres one for you. Every time UD and LaSalle are in the same conference it has benefited us. If LaSalle moves to the MAAC and UD paired up there as well, would not the same be true?

Xavier has nothing to do with anything. XU thrives in the BE because they recruited at a BE level for several years in the A10 before even joining the BE. UD has never done that. They recruit in a completely different pond than we do.
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  #302  
Old 11-18-2017, 10:55 AM
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Im with CoffeeCan on this one.

If we ever join the Big East this board will have record traffic and the server will implode. It's ok to root for Dayton in the A-10 and be content, at the same time wishing for The Big East. Imagine the opponents on your current season tickets, now imagine them in The Big East.

I rest my case.

Good post CoffeeCan
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  #303  
Old 11-18-2017, 11:05 AM
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Dayton Can Battle DePaul

for last place?
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  #304  
Old 11-18-2017, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by sopaw10 View Post
I for one, could not give a _ _ _ _ less about being in the BE. I am not at all convinced that it improves our standing with respect to the Big Dance year in and year out. Just ask DePaul and St. John’s.
St. John's, from the NBE, made the NCAAT and NIT with hc Steve Lavin, so SJU has not been a cellar dweller in the NBE.

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  #305  
Old 11-18-2017, 11:34 AM
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Since the NBE was formed, every NBE team has made the NCAAT except DePaul.
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  #306  
Old 11-18-2017, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
Coffeecan, would one and done in the NCAA Tournament give you a better feeling if UD was a member of another conference, versus one and done as an member of the A10?

I ask because I cannot remember the last time an NCAA TOURNAMENT GAME was decided by either schools conference afiliation. If they were decided by conference afiliation, there would be no madness in March. As Duke beating Kansas wouldn't really be that maddening.

I am sorry folks, but many in this fan base are suffering from Holy Big East Psychosis. Try not to despie your own conference. The A10 has aided UD in getting four NCAA tournament bids in a row. That's good news, and there is zero bad news associated with that. At some point, and we have long since past that point, it gets super degrading to keep mocking the A10...as that's exactly what it amounts to.
I am not wanting out of the A10. We are in a good spot, the A10 is the seventh or eighth best conference. It really is a good conference. But that does not mean that we should not set our sites higher.

We would have gotten into the tourney the last four years if we were in the BE as well.

However, there is no way you can convince me that we would have been seeded so horribly last year if we were in the BE. The Power Conferences are seldom treated like that.

For me, it is all about the NCAA tournament. The BE would give us more exposure, better recruits, better scheduling, more respect.

Imagine you had a good job that you excelled at and enjoyed. And at the same time there was a company in your line of work that would be able to offer you an even better job. More money, better commute, better chance for advancement. Some of you would stay at your job, and that is fine. I am not saying that I would quit my job, in hopes of landing that new job. And I am not saying that I hate my current job. But I would not be delusional in the fact that the other company was better all around. I would look to make contacts and wait for an opening, while still excelling at my current company.
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  #307  
Old 11-18-2017, 11:40 AM
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Time for my annual post.

Doesn't matter what any of us think or want. If asked to join the Big East, UD would accept in a nano second. Unless that happens, it is the A10.
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  #308  
Old 11-18-2017, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Time for my annual post.

Doesn't matter what any of us think or want. If asked to join the Big East, UD would accept in a nano second. Unless that happens, it is the A10.
That's my point, CE80. What we think or want doesn't matter, unless any of us are in a position to convince the NBE conference bigwigs that they should expand. Unless/until they see the value in expansion, nothing is going to happen on this front, so there's no sense in holding our breath.

Would I rather see 1 road trip to Chicago instead of 2 to Philadelphia? Sure. Would I rather see Marquette at the Arena instead of Fordham? Sure! But would I also rather have a Dodge Challenger than a blue station wagon? Yes. Or a 2,500 square foot house with a 3-car garage? Sure. Doesn't mean I'm going to get any of it, though.
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  #309  
Old 11-18-2017, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Heres one for you. Every time UD and LaSalle are in the same conference it has benefited us. If LaSalle moves to the MAAC and UD paired up there as well, would not the same be true?

Xavier has nothing to do with anything. XU thrives in the BE because they recruited at a BE level for several years in the A10 before even joining the BE. UD has never done that. They recruit in a completely different pond than we do.
Yeah, that makes sense since LaSalle and Xavier have enjoyed the same kind of rise in success.

Let me ask you this. If someday the Big East invites the Flyers and we accept, are you going to post what a huge mistake it is? Because I really believe most people are using that excuse of UD being better off in the A10 as a way of making themselves feel better about where we are. As said, if invited, they will join in a heartbeat and you either know that and don't trust our powers that be to make the right decision or believe they will turn it down because the A10 is a better situation for us. Which is it?

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  #310  
Old 11-18-2017, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Title_BU View Post
There is no interest from Big East member schools nor leadership for expansion. Pretty sure its going to take UConn moving their football back to FCS to change the current configuration
I think this is where Title_BU steps in and tells us the Big East has no plans to expand.
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  #311  
Old 11-18-2017, 01:27 PM
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Can we kill this thread? Pretty please.

Here are the facts.

Dayton wants to be in the Big East badly. If an invite came, Dayton would accept immediately.

There is no interest from the Big East. Who knows in 3 or 5 or 10 years, but right now zero interest from the Big East. They likely would expand if Uconn and possibly Gonzaga were open to joining. But the Big East is simply not interested in Dayton at this time (and perhaps never interested).
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  #312  
Old 11-18-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I think this is where Title_BU steps in and tells us the Big East has no plans to expand.
Yep. It's February 2nd.
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  #313  
Old 11-18-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
I think we’d do well in the BE. They are our peer universities in every sense. Our recruiting would improve. Period. The A-10 has been good for us and is a great back-up plan. We need not disrespect them or take them for granted. But they are not our peers generally in terms of MBB tradition, facilities, $$, recruiting, and academics (with the odd exception).
Agreed. The A-10 is an adequate enough place for the Flyers if the goal is to be in an annual position to qualify for the Mens NCAA Basketball Tournament and win a game or two. However I think it's important to take a broader view of the situation. The A-10 is a mediocre fit for the University of Dayton's athletic department and as an overall institution. The schools in the A-10 are not our peers (besides St. Louis and maybe Duquesne), the Flyers have no true athletic rivals in the A-10, the A-10 is far too geographically dispersed, the A-10's media contract is not lucrative nor does it offer wide exposure, the quality of the Olympic sports competition isn't generally great...the list of issues with the A-10 goes on and on. The University and fans need to aspire to find a better affiliation and not accept the status quo.
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  #314  
Old 11-18-2017, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Yeah, that makes sense since LaSalle and Xavier have enjoyed the same kind of rise in success.
Precisely my point: marriage to a team based on conference has nothing to do with anything. Too many other marriages suggest the exact opposite.
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  #315  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:45 AM
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https://theathletic.com/190309/2017/...caa-expansion/

Big East isn't looking to expand now but the Power 5 moving to 20 games conference schedules could force its hand in the near future.

UConn's football situation takes it off the table
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  #316  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
https://theathletic.com/190309/2017/...caa-expansion/

Big East isn't looking to expand now but the Power 5 moving to 20 games conference schedules could force its hand in the near future.

UConn's football situation takes it off the table
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Looks like the article is behind a paywall. Any excerpts available (for cheapskates like me)?
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  #317  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:07 AM
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The Big 10 & ACC are officially moving to the 20 game league schedule. That's 58 fewer OOC games between those leagues & the conventional wisdom says that with 20 games in conference play that'll cause the teams in the those leagues to add buy games & soften the OOC slate.

CBS reports the SEC & PAC 12 are looking at going to 20 & the 20 game league schedule helps with more inventory of league games for the conference networks.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbs...n-2018-19/amp/

If the SEC & PAC 12 go to 20 conference games that's 52 fewer OOC games for those two leagues.


What does this mean in practical terms? Louisville would likely drop a series like their current one with Seton Hall & down the line across the Big East will lose opportunities
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  #318  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:19 PM
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Our bigger concern should be that the BE does expand.

SLU, Richmond, maybe even Duquesne or Davidson (Pittsburgh/Charlotte markets respectively) might be more attractive targets than UD. The blue bloods down south don't want us anywhere near their party, they've made it abundantly clear.
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  #319  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Our bigger concern should be that the BE does expand.

SLU, Richmond, maybe even Duquesne or Davidson (Pittsburgh/Charlotte markets respectively) might be more attractive targets than UD. The blue bloods down south don't want us anywhere near their party, they've made it abundantly clear.
Do not disagree. St Louis and Pittsburgh are attractive media markets to the BE, though living here I can tell you Duquesne is a weak step child to Pitt in the media. Not sure exactly how X feels about us but would not be surprised if they see us as a real threat to them being so geographically close with academic credentials they don’t have and facilities and financial assets that are at least equal if not better.

I just have to think we will find our sweet spot due to our standing as a great basketball culture with an awesome fan base.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:16 PM
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It certainly is troublesome and will limit OOC opportunities. Lunardi showed a chart last night that mid-tier P5 conference teams in the NCAA tournament win at a very low percentage with higher seeds, and high-tier mid major teams win at a significantly higher % despite much lower seeding. The NCAA could fix this if they wanted too, forcing teams to have to have say having a sliding scale between OOC and conference games. Play higher SOS for OOC + higher win%, accept lower win% in conference. Play low OOC SOS or lower win% OOC, require higher win% in conference. Don't accept top 25/50/100 wins against conference opponents where conference teams are ranked high early season because of low OOC SOS. Force P5 schools to schedule OOC conference games against top tier mid majors H/A, not just H.

They won't do it of course, but the NCAA tournament is the goose that laid the golden egg. Everyone watches for the upset plus their team. Take away more upset possibilities, lower viewership means lower ratings means less ad $$$.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:40 PM
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Solution is to go to 96 teams with top 32 receiving buys.
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  #322  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:12 AM
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Per the Creighton AD in the Omaha paper, it takes 7 of out of the ten schools voting in favor to approve a team for expansion
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Per the Creighton AD in the Omaha paper, it takes 7 of out of the ten schools voting in favor to approve a team for expansion
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Xavier is a definite no vote. I have not heard any other objections. I do think Marquette wants us either, but that is just speculation.

Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova, Georgetown, Butler, Creighton, and DePaul.

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Old 01-14-2018, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
It certainly is troublesome and will limit OOC opportunities. Lunardi showed a chart last night that mid-tier P5 conference teams in the NCAA tournament win at a very low percentage with higher seeds, and high-tier mid major teams win at a significantly higher % despite much lower seeding. The NCAA could fix this if they wanted too, forcing teams to have to have say having a sliding scale between OOC and conference games. Play higher SOS for OOC + higher win%, accept lower win% in conference. Play low OOC SOS or lower win% OOC, require higher win% in conference. Don't accept top 25/50/100 wins against conference opponents where conference teams are ranked high early season because of low OOC SOS. Force P5 schools to schedule OOC conference games against top tier mid majors H/A, not just H.

They won't do it of course, but the NCAA tournament is the goose that laid the golden egg. Everyone watches for the upset plus their team. Take away more upset possibilities, lower viewership means lower ratings means less ad $$$.
Saw that chart and another that showed the number of teams in the tourney from 2 different periods. Can't remember the specific time frames, but essentially not too long ago the percentage of mid-major and non-P5 schools in the NCAA were higher overall then the second period of time. Something like 12% of teams selected were from non-P5 schools in this more recent period!

So I think the sqweez is already here for the non-P5 schools/conferences. The money is going toward those that want it all. I also noted that Mr. L had the Big E grouped in with the P5 conferences.

I saw an article that some of the P5 schools over the last few years have built athletic only facilities that offer dinning service tailored to diet and convenience, staffed with dieticians and head chiefs, food anytime all the time coupled with workout areas.

These building cost almost as much as the cost to upgrade the Arena aand multi-millions of dollars to their budget for food and staff. They compared the Alabama level (Multi-$M) to the Akron level of 100K total for all food and staff specialized toward the athletes. SO you see these P5 programs have a monster appetite to feed and the money needs to come from somewhere and some of that somewhere is the non-P5 schools.

It will only get worse! Trust me on that !
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:26 AM
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One thing being overlooked here is that the Power-5 conferences are largely dependent on football. Now I have a theory, and it may be debunked by Priders, but the game of football is under attack due to CTE - Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy...i.e. head/brain injuries. In fact, we are already seeing high school football programs around the country closing down. California, Oregon, and Washington will be the first states to completely outlaw the game of football at the high school level. Other states like New York, Vermont, and Massachusetts will follow. I firmly believe that within five years we will start to see college programs close down, and within ten years, I could see the entire game of college football being in mass disarray. Then where will the Power-5 conferences find themselves? Just food for thought...the NFL will be the first to succumb to pressure and then college football will be next. Lawsuits will be the trigger and eventual tipping point for the college game.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Solution is to go to 96 teams with top 32 receiving buys.
That is an intriguing idea.

I think it has some challenges to the concept.
1. The byes are necessary because it is hard to push the tournament back. CBS has the rights to the Masters and does not want those events to overlap. That means the first round might have to be a week earlier.

2. The tournament's magic is upsets the first weekend, a Cinderella at the Final Four and the big guys winning the championship game. Adding could dilute the upsets during the first weekend. it would give the teams with byes more time to prepare. Preparation time contributes to upsets.

3. The desperation to get in the tournament would not be as intense or watched. The A10 championship game might have less meaning this year. In the Horizon league NKU and Wright State could both qualify under the 96 format, but in the 68 format only one will go. That desperation adds viewers and dollars. Every year the NCAA has a scene similar to the Buffalo Bills watching the end of the Ravens Bengals game. The NFL has it, but with less excitement.

I agree with one comment from Lunardi. Teams with losing league records should not be admitted. They proved they can lose. Beside who gets excited when Penn State plays Clemson in the tournament. When UD, Wichita State, George Mason, Valpo, etc. knock off P5 schools the world watches.

State basketball tournaments like Ohio invite everyone, but they have multiple divisions. The exclusion of making it and the upsets are what make March Madness unique.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
That is an intriguing idea.

I think it has some challenges to the concept.
1. The byes are necessary because it is hard to push the tournament back. CBS has the rights to the Masters and does not want those events to overlap. That means the first round might have to be a week earlier.
Disagree, the First Round games could be moved to the Tues and Wed that is now the First Four. With 96 the First Four would be eliminated anyway.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Disagree, the First Round games could be moved to the Tues and Wed that is now the First Four. With 96 the First Four would be eliminated anyway.
The logistics of the First Four are a nightmare right now. The NCAA has to charter flights right after each game because of the less than two day turnaround. Fan turnout would be low because of the last minute planning.

Selection Sunday would have to move to Selection Saturday or Friday and would be watered down.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
That is an intriguing idea.

I think it has some challenges to the concept.
1. The byes are necessary because it is hard to push the tournament back. CBS has the rights to the Masters and does not want those events to overlap. That means the first round might have to be a week earlier.

2. The tournament's magic is upsets the first weekend, a Cinderella at the Final Four and the big guys winning the championship game. Adding could dilute the upsets during the first weekend. it would give the teams with byes more time to prepare. Preparation time contributes to upsets.

3. The desperation to get in the tournament would not be as intense or watched. The A10 championship game might have less meaning this year. In the Horizon league NKU and Wright State could both qualify under the 96 format, but in the 68 format only one will go. That desperation adds viewers and dollars. Every year the NCAA has a scene similar to the Buffalo Bills watching the end of the Ravens Bengals game. The NFL has it, but with less excitement.

I agree with one comment from Lunardi. Teams with losing league records should not be admitted. They proved they can lose. Beside who gets excited when Penn State plays Clemson in the tournament. When UD, Wichita State, George Mason, Valpo, etc. knock off P5 schools the world watches.

State basketball tournaments like Ohio invite everyone, but they have multiple divisions. The exclusion of making it and the upsets are what make March Madness unique.
This makes me think of football. Other than the national semi finals and a couple of other match-ups, I think the interest in other bowl games has wanned. i see the same if there were first round byes by the top teams.
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  #330  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
...the NFL will be the first to succumb to pressure and then college football will be next. Lawsuits will be the trigger and eventual tipping point for the college game.
I do not watch as much college football as I used to, but I am guessing that if there ever is a succumbing, that college football will succumb before the NFL, due to the fact that cf seems ahead of the NFL in that in cf, players can be ejected for targeting/head hunting.

I saw a Louisville game last year? where a Louisville defender was ejected, on the first play of the game, after the kickoff, for targeting.

The guys in the NFL practically take guys' heads off, and the only punishment they get is a 15 yard penalty.

I have never seen a NFL player get ejected for targeting.

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Old 01-14-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
One thing being overlooked here is that the Power-5 conferences are largely dependent on football. Now I have a theory, and it may be debunked by Priders, but the game of football is under attack due to CTE - Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy...i.e. head/brain injuries. In fact, we are already seeing high school football programs around the country closing down. California, Oregon, and Washington will be the first states to completely outlaw the game of football at the high school level. Other states like New York, Vermont, and Massachusetts will follow. I firmly believe that within five years we will start to see college programs close down, and within ten years, I could see the entire game of college football being in mass disarray. Then where will the Power-5 conferences find themselves? Just food for thought...the NFL will be the first to succumb to pressure and then college football will be next. Lawsuits will be the trigger and eventual tipping point for the college game.
Remember, Teddy Roosevelt railed against football in America due to the injuries it was causing. Football adapted and thus, the forward pass was born.

Reports of football's death have been greatly exaggerated.

http://www.history.com/news/how-tedd...saved-football
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:55 PM
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This is a different time....

Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
Remember, Teddy Roosevelt railed against football in America due to the injuries it was causing. Football adapted and thus, the forward pass was born.

Reports of football's death have been greatly exaggerated.

http://www.history.com/news/how-tedd...saved-football
That was then...this is now, V. Decades after Teddy's time doctors used to do adds for cigarette brands. I recently saw photos of NFL players smoking on the sidelines during games.

The CTE issue is already having impact. Parents are not letting their kids play at the pre-HS level. Eventually the player supply will be impacted.

FB is an exciting, popular game....and it's hard to imagine it disappearing entirely. Prize fighting still goes on....but at nothing remotely approaching the level I recall growing up. It's likely that high schools and then some colleges will drop the sport...it's expensive, yet another motivation. So, FB will go on for a long time.....but surely CTE will have a growing impact.
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Old 01-14-2018, 02:53 PM
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I just love this thread. Big East or bust.
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Old 01-14-2018, 04:10 PM
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The big great athletes are still playing football. Some of the marginal kids are switching to other sports. The effect so far on talent and numbers is about zero. Their is no shortage of high school players and certainly not college players.
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Old 01-14-2018, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
That was then...this is now, V. Decades after Teddy's time doctors used to do adds for cigarette brands. I recently saw photos of NFL players smoking on the sidelines during games.

The CTE issue is already having impact. Parents are not letting their kids play at the pre-HS level. Eventually the player supply will be impacted.

FB is an exciting, popular game....and it's hard to imagine it disappearing entirely. Prize fighting still goes on....but at nothing remotely approaching the level I recall growing up. It's likely that high schools and then some colleges will drop the sport...it's expensive, yet another motivation. So, FB will go on for a long time.....but surely CTE will have a growing impact.
...and centuries after Romans slaughtered animals/slaves in the Coliseum we still pack stadiums to watch men run full bore at one another and collide with bone crunching results.

If there's demand for bloodsport, there will be bloodsport.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
One thing being overlooked here is that the Power-5 conferences are largely dependent on football. Now I have a theory, and it may be debunked by Priders, but the game of football is under attack due to CTE - Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy...i.e. head/brain injuries. In fact, we are already seeing high school football programs around the country closing down. California, Oregon, and Washington will be the first states to completely outlaw the game of football at the high school level. Other states like New York, Vermont, and Massachusetts will follow. I firmly believe that within five years we will start to see college programs close down, and within ten years, I could see the entire game of college football being in mass disarray. Then where will the Power-5 conferences find themselves? Just food for thought...the NFL will be the first to succumb to pressure and then college football will be next. Lawsuits will be the trigger and eventual tipping point for the college game.
I agree with you I have been saying for years that football is facing an existential threat from the CTE problem.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:46 PM
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Nationally, there's only been a 1% drop in high school football participants over the last 5 years. There were more than 60 high schools that added football last year. Football remains the king of the hill. Of course, this does not mean that the CTE issue is not consequential. It does impact decisions to play football. That said, I'm curious if some of the players would have left football anyway. It seems possible that CTE's are just today's given reason. Regardless, there are corrections being made. My guess is that you will see state athletic associations imposing limits on hours of practice with contact well before football being banned. The NFLPA has done a great job with this. I think that the NCAA will be later to that party, but it will be boxed in by emerging norms. There will be further steps in penalizing players for leading with the head. I have watched a coach teaching 4th graders to lead with the head. Absolutely disgusting. But, in the end, football will adapt.
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Looks like the article is behind a paywall. Any excerpts available (for cheapskates like me)?
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From the author

“One school expansion would be more favorable to us.” Big East commissioner Val Ackerman discusses whether expansion is needed after other conferences go to a 20-game schedule. Plus notes on every @BIGEAST school in the @TheAthleticCBB:
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:48 PM
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Creighton AD, on Big East expansion:

“It’s always on the table. I don’t think there’s a school today that would get the seven votes that it takes. I thought Wichita (State) was one of those, was on the (table) and had a great interest in the league. But there was no way Wichita was getting seven votes.

“UConn is a school that has made a tremendous commitment to football and they have to decide what they’re going to do with football or they can decide upon leaving the conference that they’re in. UConn has been discussed a lot, but the elephant in the room is, what do we do with their football program?”

http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel/s...5c5d73ebc.html
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Solution is to go to 96 teams with top 32 receiving buys.
Hosting the First Thirty Two would be a real economic boon to UD and the city of Dayton!
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Creighton AD, on Big East expansion:

“It’s always on the table. I don’t think there’s a school today that would get the seven votes that it takes. I thought Wichita (State) was one of those, was on the (table) and had a great interest in the league. But there was no way Wichita was getting seven votes.

“UConn is a school that has made a tremendous commitment to football and they have to decide what they’re going to do with football or they can decide upon leaving the conference that they’re in. UConn has been discussed a lot, but the elephant in the room is, what do we do with their football program?”

http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel/s...5c5d73ebc.html
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I’m not sure why the Creighton AD is always looking anywhere but UD? Always seems to omit UD from the conversation. UD has to be in the conversation even if we aren’t at the top of the list, so it perplexes me why this particular AD never seems to acknowledge that. Makes me wonder if it was down between Creighton and UD when they got in????
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I’m not sure why the Creighton AD is always looking anywhere but UD? Always seems to omit UD from the conversation. UD has to be in the conversation even if we aren’t at the top of the list, so it perplexes me why this particular AD never seems to acknowledge that. Makes me wonder if it was down between Creighton and UD when they got in????
One of the oldest games around. If you refuse to acknowledge the elephant in the room, then the elephant does not exist. Creighton refuses to acknowledge that UD could become a member of the BE, so as far as Creighton is concerned, there is no UD.
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:47 AM
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How close we were!!!!

Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I’m not sure why the Creighton AD is always looking anywhere but UD? Always seems to omit UD from the conversation. UD has to be in the conversation even if we aren’t at the top of the list, so it perplexes me why this particular AD never seems to acknowledge that. Makes me wonder if it was down between Creighton and UD when they got in????
https://nypost.com/2013/03/13/butler...t-next-season/
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Creighton AD, on Big East expansion:

“It’s always on the table. I don’t think there’s a school today that would get the seven votes that it takes. I thought Wichita (State) was one of those, was on the (table) and had a great interest in the league. But there was no way Wichita was getting seven votes.

http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel/s...5c5d73ebc.html
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IMO, that sounds like a positive, no particular school can get 7 votes, so the door is open.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
The logistics of the First Four are a nightmare right now. The NCAA has to charter flights right after each game because of the less than two day turnaround. Fan turnout would be low because of the last minute planning.

Selection Sunday would have to move to Selection Saturday or Friday and would be watered down.
Not if they have these games at the same location that they would play during the weekend. And I do not think it would be that big of deal to move conference tournaments up 1 day. Most end before selection Sunday, many end a week before.
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:48 PM
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Geography, plus....

I think it's geography....we are 50 miles from X...and add little as regards eyeballs. There is also a "territorial" angle. We are in "X territory" and X may not welcome the competition.

I see the same thing re UConn's desire (to put it mildly) to join the ACC. Boston College views itself as "New England's" ACC team and does not want to share that mantle with another NE school. It has nothing to do with the bitter squabble between BC and the state of CT many years ago. Everyone in the administration of both schools in those days is gone...and relations between the people involved is friendly, scheduling resumed, etc. Nonetheless, BC views itself as THE ACC school of NE and it does not want competition from UConn in that context. They say so, flat out.

I suspect X may feel the same was about Dayton......"Nothing personal, guys,....we just don't want you in".....something like that. Offsetting that is the travel convenience for non-revenue teams. A swing though our area can hit X, Butler and UD. But even that may not fly since already two schools can be visited. So, the fact that X and Butler are so close may also work against UD. I'll bet Creighton would much prefer Saint Louis as a school to bridge the gap between SLU and the Eastern BE schools.

Bottom line: The Big East doesn't need UD. When/if a time ever comes when we have something to offer that the BE needs...perhaps eyeballs that appeal to a TV sponsor...then they may look our way. Absent a need.....forget about it. An identical problem UConn faces with the ACC. The BIG difference is that UConn is in desperate financial condition because of football. We can thank our lucky stars that our U is in good shape re athletic finances. The A10 may not be the ACC or the Big East. But, while this is an off year, the schools of the A10 (most of them) are very serious about men's BB and invest accordingly.

The A10 could consider the benefit of strengthening like the American did by adding WSU. Note, no weak AAC schools were kicked out when WSU was added. There must be schools that want be top-tier, so to speak, that are attractive to the A10. Quinnipiac in CT is a school that has its sights set on advancement to the big time in all areas, incl athletics....just opened a med school, a very, very big investment. And QU has mentioned the A10 as a "target". There may be others.

What in the world can we do about a prominent school like Fordham that cares so little about men's BB? Embarrassing. LaSalle, not much better.
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  #347  
Old 01-15-2018, 01:20 PM
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There hopefully is no chance that the A10 adds more schools, unless it is a big upgrade. They made a mistake adding George Mason, and Quinnipiac is a couple notches below them. They are in the mist of another terrible year at 6-12. Would be nice for the ladies team, but terrible for the men.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:34 PM
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This is probably one of the best responses, although I expect Xavier is personal about it. But the truth is, the Dayton TV market is nothing compared to Cincinnati, or St. Louis. I fully expect if the BE does expand, SLU will be there target for the market size.

The best thing for UD at this point is to help strengthen the A-10, and if the A-10 was smart (and I'm not sure they are), they should see the writing on the wall and look at expanding to some top tier mid major schools as well. WSU would have been a great start, but they got in the AAC. So who's left, that have historically proven themselves to be top tier in their conferences? Geographically would have to be NE, East Coast, Mid South, or Midwest.

This year, some of the higher ranked teams would be ETSU, Charleston, Loyola Chicago, UNC Greensboro, Murray State, Albany, and Buffalo. Schools in last year's NCAA tournament include UNC Wilmington, Iona, MTSU, Winthrop.

From 2016, Austin Peay, UNI.

Several teams have been in the tournament the past couple years as winners of their conference/conference tournament. If they are committed to academics and athletics, maybe the answer is to expand the A-10 to include a couple of these schools.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:53 PM
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I fear your correct TXFLYER, but OMG all those expansion schools sound so mid-major. I'd rather kick some of the A-10 out if there is any possible way. Maybe insist on a sports budget that proves some commitment. Addition by subtraction.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:04 PM
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Fordham, LaSalle....

Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
I fear your correct TXFLYER, but OMG all those expansion schools sound so mid-major. I'd rather kick some of the A-10 out if there is any possible way. Maybe insist on a sports budget that proves some commitment. Addition by subtraction.
Re addition by subtraction....apparently the A10 feels there is a net plus by having the likes of FU and LU in the league. Chris, with all your contacts with Neil, have you ever brought up this subject? Most likely there are factors we are unaware of. A specific question might be...."why can't the A10 squeeze FU and/or others to invest more in BB?"....facilities, etc. If a school won't invest to advance beyond a HS gym there's a message there.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post

The A10 could consider the benefit of strengthening like the American did by adding WSU. Note, no weak AAC schools were kicked out when WSU was added. There must be schools that want be top-tier, so to speak, that are attractive to the A10. Quinnipiac in CT is a school that has its sights set on advancement to the big time in all areas, incl athletics....just opened a med school, a very, very big investment. And QU has mentioned the A10 as a "target". There may be others.

What in the world can we do about a prominent school like Fordham that cares so little about men's BB? Embarrassing. LaSalle, not much better.
Did you just compare Quinnipiac joining the A10 as WSU joining the American? I would take Fordham, LaSalle, and Duquesne over QU. I really do not understand this.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
I think it's geography....we are 50 miles from X...and add little as regards eyeballs. There is also a "territorial" angle. We are in "X territory" and X may not welcome the competition.
I think the geography concern is overstated. The ACC has Duke, UNC and NC State all within 25 miles of each other. Wake Forest isn't that far away either. We have LaSalle and St. Joe's which are 7 miles apart. Big East has St. Johns and Seton Hall within 30 miles of each other.

We are 50 miles from X and have our own media market which always ranks highly on the list of College Basketball TV Markets.

Is geography a consideration? Absolutely, but there examples where it works. We are a natural fit as a mid-sized catholic university with a rich basketball history.

Doesn't mean we get in at any point - there are other options for them. But I am tired of hearing the geography argument when there are examples of it working. And we are in a different metro area all together.

QUICK EDIT: Let's focus on winning more games before we ask to move conferences...
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  #353  
Old 01-15-2018, 03:55 PM
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I don't think you can compare the ACC schools, which are all significantly larger schools to small, Catholic based schools like UD, X, etc. Plus, the ACC has such a significantly larger exposure and tradition and crosses all major sports. I don't think you can say because geography isn't an issue for them, it wouldn't be for much smaller schools.
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:01 PM
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It is odd...

It is odd, but I get the impression the BE has no interest in Dayton, but the AAC would take Dayton in a heartbeat. I think I would rather see UConn, UC, Memphis, Wichita State, SMU, Houston and Temple in the Arena. Not all of those schools are up right now, and there are some lower level teams in the AAC, but who gets you excited now? Probably URI and VCU. That is it. No big time games anymore. And if Dayton joins, VCU might join as well. Ef the BE if they want to be smug about it. It is what it is.
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
It is odd, but I get the impression the BE has no interest in Dayton, but the AAC would take Dayton in a heartbeat. I think I would rather see UConn, UC, Memphis, Wichita State, SMU, Houston and Temple in the Arena. Not all of those schools are up right now, and there are some lower level teams in the AAC, but who gets you excited now? Probably URI and VCU. That is it. No big time games anymore. And if Dayton joins, VCU might join as well. Ef the BE if they want to be smug about it. It is what it is.
Agreed. If the BE happens, it happens, but keep all options on the table instead of just waiting around and hoping. I have no idea if it makes sense (UD not having football and geography for all other sports), but I think the AAC is certainly an option. That being said, you could not bank on UC, UConn, and others not bolting for another conference.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
This is probably one of the best responses, although I expect Xavier is personal about it. But the truth is, the Dayton TV market is nothing compared to Cincinnati, or St. Louis. I fully expect if the BE does expand, SLU will be there target for the market size.

The best thing for UD at this point is to help strengthen the A-10, and if the A-10 was smart (and I'm not sure they are), they should see the writing on the wall and look at expanding to some top tier mid major schools as well. WSU would have been a great start, but they got in the AAC. So who's left, that have historically proven themselves to be top tier in their conferences? Geographically would have to be NE, East Coast, Mid South, or Midwest.

This year, some of the higher ranked teams would be ETSU, Charleston, Loyola Chicago, UNC Greensboro, Murray State, Albany, and Buffalo. Schools in last year's NCAA tournament include UNC Wilmington, Iona, MTSU, Winthrop.

From 2016, Austin Peay, UNI.

Several teams have been in the tournament the past couple years as winners of their conference/conference tournament. If they are committed to academics and athletics, maybe the answer is to expand the A-10 to include a couple of these schools.
I have looked at this issue at least a couple of times.

IMO, the problem is that there are few, if any, decent expansion candidates left. And some of the more desirable ones, such as UNI, Belmont, and Valpo, seem to have their success tied to a particular hc, rather than the overall program being strong.

UNI-Ben Jacobsen
Belmont-Rick Byrd
Valpo-the Drew family

Last edited by ud2; 01-15-2018 at 05:28 PM..
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:58 PM
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Misunderstood

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 View Post
Did you just compare Quinnipiac joining the A10 as WSU joining the American? I would take Fordham, LaSalle, and Duquesne over QU. I really do not understand this.
I did not mean to suggest that QU is in any way comparable to WSU..or even to any A10 schools. QU is well aware of that. What I was thinking about was the goals and "direction" of schools. Fordham and LaSalle are demonstrating that they have no top tier goals and are content being free-riders.

QU, while knowing it is not A10 caliber, is a school on the rise in all areas...academic and athletic. QU will invest until it is attractive to the A10. Current A10 members are not investing and are unattractive. The difference is the goals and the trend.

Whether QU achieves its objectives only time will tell. It's not easy.
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Old 01-15-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
I don't think you can compare the ACC schools, which are all significantly larger schools to small, Catholic based schools like UD, X, etc. Plus, the ACC has such a significantly larger exposure and tradition and crosses all major sports. I don't think you can say because geography isn't an issue for them, it wouldn't be for much smaller schools.
I believe geography builds rivalries, and rivalries build interest. More interest means higher ratings which leads to better recruiting. While I no longer care either way, it seems short-sighted by Xavier to use geography to say no.
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Old 01-15-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
I believe geography builds rivalries, and rivalries build interest. More interest means higher ratings which leads to better recruiting. While I no longer care either way, it seems short-sighted by Xavier to use geography to say no.
Probably, but X and UD are smaller fish swimming in a very large pool. When you are UNC, Duke, NC State, Wake, etc, you are big enough that the territory you are trying to recruit in is nationwide rather than more regional, so geography helps build rivalry but doesn't impede recruiting.
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Old 01-15-2018, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
I believe geography builds rivalries, and rivalries build interest. More interest means higher ratings which leads to better recruiting. While I no longer care either way, it seems short-sighted by Xavier to use geography to say no.
Or does it. We have our inherent advantages and would become a more than worthy recruiting opponent not to mention league opppnent. I grant X the better BB program, but that was not built on infrastructure, or fan base or facilities. It was great coaching decisions. Their edge could/would likely erode giving us admittance to the advantages of the BE.
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:29 PM
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What will happen first...UD gets invited to the BigEast, or Trump gets impeached?

Or neither?
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
What will happen first...UD gets invited to the BigEast, or Trump gets impeached?

Or neither?
Global warming
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  #363  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
Or does it. We have our inherent advantages and would become a more than worthy recruiting opponent not to mention league opppnent. I grant X the better BB program, but that was not built on infrastructure, or fan base or facilities. It was great coaching decisions. Their edge could/would likely erode giving us admittance to the advantages of the BE.
You can look at it either way. I contend that, even though the scale is different between UD/X and UNC/Duke, the concept of “proximity breeding rivalry breeding success” could work to the advantage of both the BE as a whole and X specifically, if only they would give that concept a chance. At this point, though, that’s their choice, and all UD can do is keep winning games, getting to The Dance, and making itself a desirable acquisition.

Also, regarding facilities vs. coaching vs. anything else, all you need to do is compare Cameron to The Dean Dome. Polar opposites in terms of intimacy and (presumably) amenities. Yet both have several NCAA banners hanging from the rafters. Yes, proximity has really hurt those programs.
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  #364  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Global warming
We could use a little global warming right now. Freezing our cans off in TX. Not supposed to get this cold.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:53 PM
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I forgot that UNI did well with hc Greg McDermott, prior to Jacobsen taking over. If the A10 expands, my vote is for UNI.
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  #366  
Old 01-16-2018, 07:20 AM
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the common denominators for Xavier, Butler & Creighton were winning & doing it across multiple coaching regimes when they got in the Big East

The fan support, facilities & resources are there. We reload & not rebuild while consistently making the NCAA tournament & that'll force their hand

I think the reluctance in the past was based on the quality of the program. Brian Gregory level results isn't a net positive to them
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:06 AM
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Let me ask all ye " Dayton-to-the-Big - East " proponents this question : If UD wins the National Championship as a member of the A10 , will you be satisfied? Or, will you continue insisting that UD cannot function without a Big East membership?

At some point, and we have long since reached and past that point, where this obsession is really not helping the situation at all. The Xavier, Butler, and Marquette fan bases, must be laughing hysterically; or more likely, they haven't even noticed.

As matters of factual reality, aside from the other pillars of UD basketball (i.e. Blackburn, Frerricks, Donoher, the 67 team, and the building of the UD Arena; The Atlantic Ten Conference is, by far, the best, greatest, and most important thing to happen to UD Athletics in the last 100 years...bar none.. not debatable...no credible questions asked.

Why do you folks want to date a bitty who doesn't have an ounce of respect for you? This obsession and mentality only sends the bad message that the Dayton Flyers are not proud of their own conference. It's pathetic, mostly because its not happening...get over it.
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  #368  
Old 01-16-2018, 08:22 AM
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Not happening after this year but judging from what the commissioner of the Big East & the AD of Creighton have said on record there's a real possibility of an 11th team in the near future.

The A10 has helped out UD but why would aspiring to be in a better conference be a bad thing. Look at the Lunardi graphic from the VCU game on the trend of bids going to the Big East/Power 5. Putting your school in the best possible conference is a pretty easy business decision for any non Ivy/Patriot League school

Respect is earned not given in college basketball. Prior to the Archie Miller era what have done to earn the respect of the other teams in the Big East? 10 years ago I'm sure none of the other programs in the league had much respect for Butler but winning games changed that
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:23 AM
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That is a head in the sand approach. Status quo will leave you in the dust as we have seen before. Be sure that Spina and Neil continue to look for a better option for Dayton. They are not satisfied with our conference and what then future holds. We are not spending 95m to sit on our hands. There will be another Major reshuffle after next season and UD is doing what it can to find the right landing place. The Great Midwest was the best thing to happen to UD and we blew it...wont happen again.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
Let me ask all ye " Dayton-to-the-Big - East " proponents this question : If UD wins the National Championship as a member of the A10 , will you be satisfied? Or, will you continue insisting that UD cannot function without a Big East membership?

At some point, and we have long since reached and past that point, where this obsession is really not helping the situation at all. The Xavier, Butler, and Marquette fan bases, must be laughing hysterically; or more likely, they haven't even noticed.

As matters of factual reality, aside from the other pillars of UD basketball (i.e. Blackburn, Frerricks, Donoher, the 67 team, and the building of the UD Arena; The Atlantic Ten Conference is, by far, the best, greatest, and most important thing to happen to UD Athletics in the last 100 years...bar none.. not debatable...no credible questions asked.

Why do you folks want to date a bitty who doesn't have an ounce of respect for you? This obsession and mentality only sends the bad message that the Dayton Flyers are not proud of their own conference. It's pathetic, mostly because its not happening...get over it.

Get back to me when any A10 team wins the national championship.

The biggest advantage of the Big East is the ability to recruit higher caliber talent. Right now, UD is at a disadvantage when recruiting.

The A10 is a good league, but it has dog teams and too many facilities that are medicicre and awful. LaSalle and Fordham have aging terrible gyms.

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  #371  
Old 01-16-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
Let me ask all ye " Dayton-to-the-Big - East " proponents this question : If UD wins the National Championship as a member of the A10 , will you be satisfied? Or, will you continue insisting that UD cannot function without a Big East membership?

At some point, and we have long since reached and past that point, where this obsession is really not helping the situation at all. The Xavier, Butler, and Marquette fan bases, must be laughing hysterically; or more likely, they haven't even noticed.

As matters of factual reality, aside from the other pillars of UD basketball (i.e. Blackburn, Frerricks, Donoher, the 67 team, and the building of the UD Arena; The Atlantic Ten Conference is, by far, the best, greatest, and most important thing to happen to UD Athletics in the last 100 years...bar none.. not debatable...no credible questions asked.

Why do you folks want to date a bitty who doesn't have an ounce of respect for you? This obsession and mentality only sends the bad message that the Dayton Flyers are not proud of their own conference. It's pathetic, mostly because its not happening...get over it.
I've never seen anybody say that UD can't function without the Big East. I've just seen people say that it would likely make winning a national title easier. That's my belief and that's why I want UD in the Big East. And if a subset of the schools don't respect us, that's fine. We will kick their a$$es and make the tournament just the same.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:30 AM
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Having all of our games on FS1, FS2, Fox & CBS Sports vs Facebook would be reason enough for me
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  #373  
Old 01-16-2018, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
I don't think you can compare the ACC schools, which are all significantly larger schools to small, Catholic based schools like UD, X, etc. Plus, the ACC has such a significantly larger exposure and tradition and crosses all major sports. I don't think you can say because geography isn't an issue for them, it wouldn't be for much smaller schools.
How are you defining size of the schools? If you are talking enrollment, we are larger than Wake Forest and Seton Hall. And we are only about 3,500 shy of Duke. We have a larger enrollment than 6 of the 10 BE schools.
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  #374  
Old 01-16-2018, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatty Town Coach View Post
Let me ask all ye " Dayton-to-the-Big - East " proponents this question : If UD wins the National Championship as a member of the A10 , will you be satisfied? Or, will you continue insisting that UD cannot function without a Big East membership?
If UD wins a National Championship - of course we would all be happy. Every one of us...except udscott. However, I see the A10 as something that is holding us back from that.

When was the last time ANY team won a National Championship from outside the PAC 12, SEC, Big 12, Big 10, ACC, AAC or Big East?

The answer is 1990. And we don't have Larry Johnson, Stacey Augmon or Greg Anthony. Before that? 1966. It was so long ago that it was a big deal that Texas Western started 5 black guys (first team to ever win a championship doing that).

That is 2 teams over the last 52 years to win a championship from outside those conferences.

So while we will all be thrilled when UD wins a NC, seems to me we should want to be in one of those conferences in order improve our chances.

I'm proud of the A10. I am. Doesn't mean I don't want more for UD.
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  #375  
Old 01-16-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
If UD wins a National Championship - of course we would all be happy. Every one of us...except udscott. However, I see the A10 as something that is holding us back from that.

When was the last time ANY team won a National Championship from outside the PAC 12, SEC, Big 12, Big 10, ACC, AAC or Big East?

The answer is 1990. And we don't have Larry Johnson, Stacey Augmon or Greg Anthony. Before that? 1966. It was so long ago that it was a big deal that Texas Western started 5 black guys (first team to ever win a championship doing that).

That is 2 teams over the last 52 years to win a championship from outside those conferences.

So while we will all be thrilled when UD wins a NC, seems to me we should want to be in one of those conferences in order improve our chances.

I'm proud of the A10. I am. Doesn't mean I don't want more for UD.
Gonzaga last year, from the WCC, and Butler, from the Horizon League, played in the title game in the last 8 years. Butler made the title game in back-to-back years. That is 37.5% of the time over the last 8 years.
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  #376  
Old 01-16-2018, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Gonzaga last year, from the WCC, and Butler, from the Horizon League, played in the title game in the last 8 years. Butler made the title game in back-to-back years. That is 37.5% of the time over the last 8 years.
Which still leaves the majority of participants from the other conferences. You can also get VCU and George Mason as final four participants.

The point still stands that if you want to contend for a National Championship - those conferences give you a better chance.

Just ask Butler - you know - after they moved conferences even after making it to back to back championship games. They still felt the Big East improved their chances.
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  #377  
Old 01-16-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
How are you defining size of the schools? If you are talking enrollment, we are larger than Wake Forest and Seton Hall. And we are only about 3,500 shy of Duke. We have a larger enrollment than 6 of the 10 BE schools.
There are 15 schools in the ACC for basketball. Only Wake has a lower enrollment than UD, although Duke has less undergrad but more total. They are followed by ND, BC, and Clemson with up to 1/2 more students, and as large as FSU, with 38k students. Most of the schools in the ACC as I said are significantly larger. Seton Hall isn't in the ACC, was only specifically referring to ACC schools.
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:05 PM
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FTR, I'm not pining for the Big East. I think we accept if ever invited, but I'm not holding my breath. I am for UD improving it's conference affiliation, either through addition to the A10 or moving to another conference. I just don't see another conference as viable at the moment, so perhaps A10 expansion would be the way to go.

Alternatively, it would be interesting to start a new basketball centric conference, with three divisions...East, Central, and West. Say 10 teams in each division, play each team in your own division twice, and two teams from the other divisions on a rotating basis. Would limit cross country travel costs, but give you the opportunity to play other mid-major schools on home or away basis. Seeding each year could be based on how you finish, kind of like the NFL, so that top division winners play other top division winners.

Not sure there's 30 teams out there who would be willing to build something like that, probably a logistical nightmare. But at least it sort of keeps things regional with some national component.
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan View Post
FTR, I'm not pining for the Big East. I think we accept if ever invited, but I'm not holding my breath. I am for UD improving it's conference affiliation, either through addition to the A10 or moving to another conference. I just don't see another conference as viable at the moment, so perhaps A10 expansion would be the way to go
I would agree - I'm losing sleep over UD getting to a better conference. Probably isn't happening.

We need to do what's needed to be successful in our current environment. However, as you said, if given the chance to be in the BE or AAC, I would expect us to jump at that opportunity.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:22 AM
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If you look at some recent changes for instance Wichita State or Creighton there were some baseline reasoning behind each move.

WSU had / has been on a run for sometime and noteworthy in any sporting news cycle.

Creighton was a connected Jesuit school doing moderately well (not as well as WSU obviously).

So we see two compelling reasons (among others in the decision to invite) that caused these teams to move into a different conference.

Unfortunately UD is still trying to string together a run similar to WSU's program and we don't have a natural affinity to say a Jesuit leaning conference.

Secondly this year appears to be a re-build and hopefully we get back into some tournament discussions next year. But this will only extend the time where we can say we have a sustaining hi level program year after year.

As for some affiliation we could look into a national Marist based conference. There is a Marist school in NY and I know there is one in Honolulu so we have a national conference immediately!
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:32 AM
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Why are you still talking about this?

NEW FLASH: The BigEast got married a long time ago, had a couple kids and is living happily in the Hamptons. She's not coming back to Drexel...ever.

We have it great where we are. And should be taking advantage of it.

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  #382  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:41 AM
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Based on what the Big East commissioner and the Creighton AD said talk of expansion isn't idle speculation. The 20 game schedule may be someone's get out of jail card
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Unfortunately UD is still trying to string together a run similar to WSU's program and we don't have a natural affinity to say a Jesuit leaning conference.
Both Creighton and WSU have been fortunate that they have a head coach who isn't treating their program as a stepping stone. If AM had stayed, I think UD was well on it's way to having similar extended runs, but programs like Dayton need continuity at the coaching level to maintain long extended runs of success. Having to start all over with new systems every 5 years or so is going to make that tough to accomplish.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:58 AM
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Butler, VCU & Xavier survived coaching changes
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:35 PM
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With a newly upgraded Arena that will look awesome in 1 1/2 years, a potential long-tenured & respected coach, a great supportive fan base, and hopefully a team on the rise, UD will be in a great position to be added to the Big East or AAC or create a larger conference. Obviously getting back to the tournament in the next 2 years will be vital as well.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Based on what the Big East commissioner and the Creighton AD said talk of expansion isn't idle speculation. The 20 game schedule may be someone's get out of jail card
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The P5 schools aren't going to be outflanked by anyone and it sure in he;; isn;t going to be the small schools that make up the Big East. The P5 schools will continue to quietly manipulate rules/scheduling/invites in their favor. I see the 20 game schedule and no transfer penalty as 2 directions that would harm smaller schools however I think the no penalty transfer rule (you don't have to sit out a year) will be detrimental to all D1 programs but I think the bigger schools believe chaos and scheduling work in their favor.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:59 PM
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We need Chris for this...

The A10 is comprised of 14 schools....a 20 game round robin conference schedule requires only 11...and 18 game schedule only 10.

Apparently the conference leadership and the schools think the benefit of having 14 schools outweighs the benefit of10 or 11 schools really committed to Big East-type excellence. Why is that? Neil knows. Or, perhaps that isn't even the right question/issue.

If 10 or 11 current schools were will to really step up their investment, wouldn't those schools be better off than the current A10 with three or four really weak programs? Again, Neil knows the answer.

Dayton is the crown jewel of the A10 and is investing a ton of money in the conference. Losing UD would be a severe blow. Doesn't that give us some leverage? It appears as if schools that demonstrate their lack of commitment by failure to make even modest investments in facilities do so because they know there will be no consequences....they get away with it.

I see no fundamental reason why the A10 cannot rival the Big East. If the likes of Seton Hall and Providence can invest and compete at the Big East level, so can most of the A10 schools. But too many do not.

Doesn't it hurt UD and the other serious schools to be dragged down by the A10 bottom feeders? Chris has discussed many things with Neil. I would be very interested in Neil's take on this. Perhaps we just don't understand the dynamics or other things. Chris, please ask.
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  #388  
Old 01-17-2018, 01:12 PM
Sea Bass Sea Bass is offline
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UD has little leverage if it doesn't have anywhere to go.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Butler, VCU & Xavier survived coaching changes
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As did Creighton. They went from Dana Altman, who really built their modern-era program, to Greg McDermott, and they did not miss a beat.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:44 PM
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Leverage....

Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
UD has little leverage if it doesn't have anywhere to go.
If the AAC was interested in non-FB WSU it would be interested in Dayton. Indeed, UD was always mentioned in the discussion of AAC expansion. UD had no interest. That's not the issue though.

To me the issue is this. Let's assume at least half of 14 schools really are serious about men's BB and would like to make the NCAAs regularly...say 3-4 times a decade....consistently. And, those schools know that the bottom feeders hamper their chances significantly (assuming that's true.)

Collectively they do have leverage. If the top seven leaned on the bottom seven....with the threat of downsizing to 10,11 schools...seems reasonable that at least 3 or 4 of the bottom seven could be coerced into committing to up their investment. That's all you need. Seven are OK now...add another three or four and the A10 becomes a 10 or 11 school league.

I'm assuming that three or four schools would opt not to invest at the required level. By making that decision they are essentially withdrawing from the A10....they are not being booted out. No conference wants to kick schools out. But a school that refuses to meet minimum standards that ten or so schools agree to is withdrawing.

Now no school can guarantee 10,000 fannies in the seats. But, even a school that draws only 4000-5000 (think St. Joes) can have top notch facilities that impress recruits, the media, patrons, etc. Schools still playing in a HS gym with no decent training facilities, etc., are making a statement to the other conference members. Men's BB is not important to us and we're not going to invest in it. I don't think more than two or three A10 schools would make that decision. But, those that do are deciding that the A10 is not for them.

This issue should not be a problem for the average-to-top A10 programs. It should be a problem for the below average-to-bottom feeders.
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  #391  
Old 01-17-2018, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
UD had no interest.
And how do you know this? I think we would jump to the AAC in a heartbeat if asked. It would be a no-brainer. So would VCU.

I wouldn't be surprised if the AAC is spurred on by the immediate impact of adding WSU and sends out invites to UD/VCU, the two most obvious next choices. That would make the AAC a perennial top-5 RPI league and give them a permanent seat at the big boy's table.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
As did Creighton. They went from Dana Altman, who really built their modern-era program, to Greg McDermott, and they did not miss a beat.
Yes they did, and nothing against these programs at all, but they were able to keep continuity (as well as recruits) by hiring within.Someone familiar with the program, keeping recruits, running the same schemes, etc.

In McDermott's case. Creighton did have 4-5 players who were going to enter their senior seasons, 1 entering his junior year, and 7 kids entering their soph. seasons the year he was hired, not to mention a stud player coming along in his son..
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:24 PM
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It was not entirely accurate for me to say that Creighton did not miss a beat going from Altman to McDermott. There was a bit of a stumble at the end of Altman's tenure and at the beginning of McDermott's tenure.


Season Coach Overall Conference Standing Postseason

Dana Altman (Missouri Valley Conference) (1994–2010)
1994–95 Dana Altman 7–19 4–14 T–9th —
1995–96 Dana Altman 14–15 9–9 T–5th —
1996–97 Dana Altman 15–15 10–8 6th —
1997–98 Dana Altman 18–10 12–6 2nd NIT First Round
1998–99 Dana Altman 22–9 11–7 T–2nd NCAA Second Round
1999–00 Dana Altman 23–10 11–7 4th NCAA First Round
2000–01 Dana Altman 24–8 14–4 1st NCAA First Round
2001–02 Dana Altman 23–9 14–4 T–1st NCAA Second Round
2002–03 Dana Altman 29–5 15–3 2nd NCAA First Round
2003–04 Dana Altman 20–9 12–6 T–2nd NIT First Round
2004–05 Dana Altman 23–11 11–7 T–3rd NCAA First Round
2005–06 Dana Altman 20–10 12–6 T–2nd NIT Second Round
2006–07 Dana Altman 22–11 13–5 2nd NCAA First Round
2007–08 Dana Altman 22–11 10–8 4th NIT Second Round
2008–09 Dana Altman 27–8 14–4 T–1st NIT Second Round
2009–10 Dana Altman 18–16 10–8 4th CIT Semifinals
Dana Altman: 327–176 (.650) 182–106 (.632)


Greg McDermott (Missouri Valley Conference) (2010–2013)
2010–11 Greg McDermott 23–16 10–8 T–4th CBI Runner Up
2011–12 Greg McDermott 29–6 14–4 2nd NCAA Third Round
2012–13 Greg McDermott 28–8 13–5 1st NCAA Third Round

Greg McDermott (Big East Conference) (2013–present)
2013–14 Greg McDermott 27–8 14–4 2nd NCAA Third Round
2014–15 Greg McDermott 14–19 4–14 9th —
2015–16 Greg McDermott 20–15 9–9 6th NIT Quarterfinals
2016–17 Greg McDermott 25–10 10–8 3rd NCAA First Round
2017–18 Greg McDermott likely another NCAAT year
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
And how do you know this? I think we would jump to the AAC in a heartbeat if asked. It would be a no-brainer. So would VCU.

I wouldn't be surprised if the AAC is spurred on by the immediate impact of adding WSU and sends out invites to UD/VCU, the two most obvious next choices. That would make the AAC a perennial top-5 RPI league and give them a permanent seat at the big boy's table.
I'm also curious by the "UD had no interest" comment. I would think one reason UD would not have interest is that the AAC is loaded with schools who are not hiding the fact that they are ready and hoping to bolt -- you may not get UC, UConn, Memphis, etc. in a few years.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
And how do you know this? I think we would jump to the AAC in a heartbeat if asked. It would be a no-brainer. So would VCU.

I wouldn't be surprised if the AAC is spurred on by the immediate impact of adding WSU and sends out invites to UD/VCU, the two most obvious next choices. That would make the AAC a perennial top-5 RPI league and give them a permanent seat at the big boy's table.
I would jump to the AAC with VCU in a nano-second. Some posters point out that certain AAC schools would leave in a heartbeat if given an invite to a P5 conference (UConn, UC). But that may never happen. The Big 12 just looked at a couple of those schools and decided not to expand. Even if a couple teams left, the AAC would still be better than the A-10. The Big East basketball schools weren't hurt when their conference split occurred. With a nucleus of Wichita State, VCU, and Dayton the AAC would be fine no matter who left. They could attract other GOOD "mid-majors" to join (as the new Big East did), perhaps some of the more serious schools from the A-10. If UD wouldn't join the AAC because they don't have enough in common with those schools, they would be making the same mistake they made back in the 70's.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I would jump to the AAC with VCU in a nano-second. Some posters point out that certain AAC schools would leave in a heartbeat if given an invite to a P5 conference (UConn, UC). But that may never happen. The Big 12 just looked at a couple of those schools and decided not to expand. Even if a couple teams left, the AAC would still be better than the A-10. The Big East basketball schools weren't hurt when their conference split occurred. With a nucleus of Wichita State, VCU, and Dayton the AAC would be fine no matter who left. They could attract other GOOD "mid-majors" to join (as the new Big East did), perhaps some of the more serious schools from the A-10. If UD wouldn't join the AAC because they don't have enough in common with those schools, they would be making the same mistake they made back in the 70's.
And if butler I mean Dayton wanted to leave the A10 I mean AAC for the big east once invited later it could be an option....albeit if money is comparable in AAC I’d say screw em they had their chance.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:13 PM
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A lesson learned....

Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I would jump to the AAC with VCU in a nano-second. Some posters point out that certain AAC schools would leave in a heartbeat if given an invite to a P5 conference (UConn, UC). But that may never happen. The Big 12 just looked at a couple of those schools and decided not to expand. Even if a couple teams left, the AAC would still be better than the A-10. The Big East basketball schools weren't hurt when their conference split occurred. With a nucleus of Wichita State, VCU, and Dayton the AAC would be fine no matter who left. They could attract other GOOD "mid-majors" to join (as the new Big East did), perhaps some of the more serious schools from the A-10. If UD wouldn't join the AAC because they don't have enough in common with those schools, they would be making the same mistake they made back in the 70's.
If the old Big East debacle taught us (and Neil) anything it's that hybrid conferences don't work. The AAC is dominated by football....FB drives the train....and is the money pit for the FB schools. BB-only schools will always be second class citizens in the AAC....incl WSU.

The old Big East turned up its nose at a $2 billion TV deal thinking it could get more. A year later the league was no more. It was fundamentally unstable it didn't seem to realize it.

While I respect you opinion, fan (always do), I think shaping up and possibly downsizing the A10 is a far safer bet with a better chance of success. As I've said, most likely there are angles that none of us appreciate. I think Chris could have Neil enlighten us re the realities.

One last point re the AAC. The AAC describes itself as a Power 6 conference. That's not just self-inflated hype. Those schools have resources and are improving rapidly. The final football polls had three....three...AAC schools in the top 25...one in the top 10. The AAC is on the move and FB drives it. UD doesn't fit, in my opinion.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer View Post
If the old Big East debacle taught us (and Neil) anything it's that hybrid conferences don't work. The AAC is dominated by football....FB drives the train....and is the money pit for the FB schools. BB-only schools will always be second class citizens in the AAC....incl WSU.

The old Big East turned up its nose at a $2 billion TV deal thinking it could get more. A year later the league was no more. It was fundamentally unstable it didn't seem to realize it.

While I respect you opinion, fan (always do), I think shaping up and possibly downsizing the A10 is a far safer bet with a better chance of success. As I've said, most likely there are angles that none of us appreciate. I think Chris could have Neil enlighten us re the realities.

One last point re the AAC. The AAC describes itself as a Power 6 conference. That's not just self-inflated hype. Those schools have resources and are improving rapidly. The final football polls had three....three...AAC schools in the top 25...one in the top 10. The AAC is on the move and FB drives it. UD doesn't fit, in my opinion.
Two points: Does it look like the A-10 will ever shape up or downsize? They've had plenty of time to do so. Also, how were the Big East basketball schools hurt?
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:01 PM
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Downsizing the A10 isn't going to happen. If Fordham is still here & the Bonnies stuck around after welder gate. Temple getting kicked out of the big east in football is the only time I can think of a program being thrown out for performance

With the possibility of the A10 losing Dayton, VCU or St. Louis why would they go down to teams 10 & then risk being on life support as a conference.

You can't make Fordham or LaSalle invest in new facilities or make their fans show up. This is why we need a new conference
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
And how do you know this? I think we would jump to the AAC in a heartbeat if asked. It would be a no-brainer. So would VCU.

I wouldn't be surprised if the AAC is spurred on by the immediate impact of adding WSU and sends out invites to UD/VCU, the two most obvious next choices. That would make the AAC a perennial top-5 RPI league and give them a permanent seat at the big boy's table.
You're forgetting about the 800 lb Bearcat in the room...
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