another domino falls...

[CE80]

I just read something regarding Texas being the cancer that casued the break up of Big 12 and they may go begging to the ACC. The big egos need to realize the the whole is better than the sum of the parts. I hope that is a lesson to any of the big school with their sight set on having the BCS conferences breaking away from the NCAA BBball tournament. I think the tourney is worth a whole lot more with the storylines from the mid major and small schools.

[Bat'71]

UAC, I think your assessment of the situation is pretty good and quite valid. At some point, however, I would think some geographic rationalization may have to be considered for conferences to make sense, for no other reason than to address travel budgets for non-revenue generating sports or the ability of member institutions to generate some form of natural rivalry (proximity is almost a necessity, no?) That's why I would think some form of alignment of the rump Big XII and Mountain West would make some sense, as well as why the absorption of the BE FB schools by the ACC and Big Ten could happen. The problem I see with BE football is that, try as it might, it just doesn't seem to generate any lasting fan enthusiasm on a regional basis (let alone nationally) like the other BCS conferences. Now, if the situation does devolve from the current six BCS conferences down to four mega-conferences, there will probably be no reason for the then member schools to "defect"... there wouldn't really be anywhere to defect and you'd pretty much have "de facto" stability.

[UACFlyer]

Bat, it's not the Big East schools or the FB they play. True, the last two years the BE has been down. But since the BCS was formed, at season end the BE has had an average mid-pack rating, often higher than the Big Ten.

The core problem with the Big East is the word "East"....more specifically the Northeast. People in NJ, NY, the New England states just don't care about college football in a way that remotely compares with the rabid fan interest in the South and Mid West. Even in PA only Penn State has real fan interest that rivals the hot beds of college FB.

The flag ship state universities of Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island play FCS FB, the U. of Vermont plays no FB. Only CT and now UMass play FBS FB.

In CT, where FB has been very successful in a short time, fan interest is luke warm at best. Tailgating has really caught on...to the point that at kickoff at a sold-out UConn game half the fans are still in the parking lot. It takes the end of the 1st Q before people are settled in their seats...and well before the end of the 4th Q 90% of the fans are gone regardless of the score. When a UConn game is on TV it's embarrassing to see the empty stadium in the 4th Q. Tonight UC plays Iowa State on ESPN, I believe. Hopefully fans will stick it out. I know that former coach Edsell often complained bitterly about fan attitude.

How do you change that? Top ten teams might do it. When Rurgers was very good a few years ago they had great support, had plans to enlarge their stadium, etc., had a good coach. But team performance has not been sustained and fan interest has suffered.

Parts of CA have a similar problem. In southern CA USC and UCLA have great interest. But, in northern CA Stanford and Cal have far less. Recently Stanford demolished its iconic and beautiful 80,000 seat stadium and built a 50,000 seat stadium in its place...whcih does noy usually sell out. Down sizing a stadium surely bucks a trend, but reflects interest.

Local interest in FB starts early. In the South high school stadiums often seat 20,000....unimaginable in the NE. That level of interest carries through to the college level. There is nothing the Big East can do about that...it's just a fact of life.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[CE80]

Having grown up in NJ, I can echo UAC's comments. I didn't play football but I still never heard of any kid growing up with a dream of playing for Rutgers. I went to HS football games when I was in HS but since I did not play, my parents never went to a game. Living in OH for 30 years, I have caught up somewhat. Friday night HS footbal is a big deal. I remember when I first heard that people without kids in HS went to games. I could not comprehend that.

[bobber]

Eons ago, when I was stationed in the south, I was amazed at how big football, especially college football, was down there. I turned on my car radio once on a Saturday afternoon and every station had football......every station. Well, I guess there might have been a few stations playing music, but they reported the college scores about every second or third song. It was just a religion.

Amazing.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer Bat, it's not the Big East schools or the FB they play. True, the last two years the BE has been down. But since the BCS was formed, at season end the BE has had an average mid-pack rating, often higher than the Big Ten.

I'm wondering how many at-large bids the Big East has received to BCS bowl games. The Big Ten receives one almost every year. I can't recall the last time the Big East received one. I know the Big Ten has received an at-large bid for at least the last six years in a row, during which time the Big East has not received any.

[UACFlyer]

I don't know how many at-large bids the BE has received...quite possibly the answer in "none". An on-going issue with the BE has been the small size of the conference....eight schools....nine next year with TCU added.

Another issue has been a significant decline in recent years of two premier legacy members...Pitt and Syracuse...two schools with very successful FB histories, quite a few Heisman winners. Both programs have been struggling mightily to turn things around. If/when they ever do it will make a huge difference. Flyer hoops fans can appreciate how difficult that is.

The WSJ had an article recently re school preferences of top HS recruits. There was an overwhelming preference for southeast schools.....maybe a weather issue, reputation, whatever.

Another factor that I have heard many times has to do with the importance of basketball in the NE, which, apparently competing colleges use against BE coaches in recruiting. "That's a BB school....why would you want to go there". Consider Indiana in the Big Ten, Kentucky in the SEC and NC in the ACC...top-tier BB schools that have always struggled in FB. Surely it's not for lack of trying in FB. Maybe it's the BB school issue.

Whatever,....the BE is struggling. I would like to see KU, KSU and Mizzou added to the BE. That would help, I think.

[Medford]

As I've said before, the biggest problem the Big East has faced in the last decade was a perception issue. No matter how strong or weak the conference was, since Miami and VTech left, most programs are an afterthought on the college football land scape. The Big East hasn't helped itself alot either since Miami & VTech departed to change this perception, three times they've had a champion w/ a BCS ranking below 10, including the UConn squad that wasn't listed in the BCS top 25. They've never had an at large bid; they're a respectable 3-4 in their BCS games since Miami & VTech left, however they've had multiple cases where their BCS representative have struggled to sell their allotment of seats. Despite UC's perfect season a couple of years back, no body really considerred them to be on the same level as Texas, Bama or Florida that season. UC did themselves no favor by getting blown out by Tebow and Co. The only Big East team that felt like it had legit national title talent was the WVU squad that choked away a season ending loss to a bad Pitt squad and cost themselves a BCS championship apperance, however they did back up the impression that they were on the same level as the best in the SEC, B10 & B12 that season demolishing a solid Oklahoma squad (in an admittaly down year where Ohio State had no business being no where near the title game but everyone else stumbled on the way to the finish).

You can quote me all of the Sag and RPI ratings that you want, ever since Miami & VTech left there has been no one to carry the torch of the conference and make the nation take notice. For all the knocking that TCU & Boise have taken for their conferences the last few years, when given a chance on the biggest stage, they've proved more often than not that they belonged on that same stage.

But I digress, the past matters little in the current debate, here's the problem the Big East faces going forward. I'll have to make a few assumptions, but they're not giant leaps. I'll assume aTm is indeed going to the SEC, baylor be ****ed. I'll assume Oklahoma is heading out west to the P12 and that Okie state is going to join them. I'll also assume the SEC is not going to stay at 13 teams, but go to at least 14. I'll also assume that no team is going from the P12, B10, SEC or ACC will move to the Big East and finally the ACC (the most likely conference outside of the B12/Big East to lose a team to the SEC) will want to stay at the current 12 team arrangement. Same for the B10, though no one sees them losing a team to the SEC.

A few more assumptions, though these are less certain in my mind: both the B10 & the ACC will expand beyond their current 12 teams if/when the SEC & P12 go to 14 teams if there are teams available that make "sense". Texas can't make it as an independent, and will need to join a conference. The P12, ACC & B10 all fit what they'd look for, and all would expand to accomadate adding Texas.

Finally, since the Big East is essentially dead if the others all go to 16 teams, I'll assume they all go to the equivalent of 14 or the the P12 & SEC go to 16, with the ACC and B10 staying at 12 for now.

Presumably, only the most attractive members of the B12 & Big East would move on to the the B10, SEC, P12 & ACC. Since we need 2 in each, I'll say aTm & Missouri to the SEC, OU & OSU to the P12, Texas & Kansas to the B10, UConn & Pitt to the ACC.

Those are the 8 most attractive teams w/n those 2 conferences. The conference matching isn't ideal (especially Kansas to the B10) but I left notre Dame out of the equation for now, even though I've stated more than once I think they'll eventually be forced to join a conference if the 16 team setup is the path of the near future. Even if you include Notre Dame, any setup that is the equivalent of 14 teams per conference, the Big East is going to lose one of their top level programs. Once they go to 14, you know a few, if not all are going to go to 16 teams to capture markets they don't currently have. At the end of the day, there's no one left to carry the banner of the Big East. They've struggled to find anyone to carry it since Miami & VTech left, its only going to get harder in the future. If the Big 12 breaks apart, I don't see much chance that the Big East football side of things remains strong enough to be any where close to the other 4 conferences.

[UACFlyer]

....thorough and comprehensive analysis, Med.

As for your selection of "desirable" Big East teams...and where they might wind up.....seems to me that WVA and Syracuse are quite desirable and were omitted. WVA has a very good FB program and SU is a prestigious university. Recall that SU was the school that the ACC wanted...and got stuck with VaTech because they had no choice.

Tough situation for many schools...the uncertainty and instability must be wearing on them.

[Medford]

I agree completely, which is why once conferences go to 14, they'll jump to 16 w/ a few more of the remaining Big East teams.

At the end of the day, Baylor, Louisville, Iowa State, Cincy, TCU, Kansas State, Texas Tech, South Florida need to fight hard to remain relavant. surely, some of those schools will be picked up. even in a 4x16 arrangement, only 3 current BCS schools (including TCU) will get left out. The canidates to get left out under such a scenerio is obvious, but the exact schools to be left at the alter isn't obvious. What is obvious, is that the schools in jepeordy will likely be tripping overthemselves to be included in the next wave. I doubt TCU wants to go back to the Mountain West after only a season or two in BCS land.

Another canidate that I haven't seen mentioned, which could push a 4th current BCS school out of the picture would be BYU. The P12 likes its partner schools, USC/UCLA, 'Zona/ASU, Cal/Stanford, etc... Natural travel partners. Right now, Utah & Colorado are travel partners. Expand w/ Okie State and OU and they become travel partners, but what if they go to 16. I wonder how much thought has been given to including BYU as a travel partner w/ Utah and finding another school to be the travel partner with Colorado (Kansas perhaps, assuming Texas goes elsewhere)

[San Diego Flyer]

Originally Posted by Medford I wonder how much thought has been given to including BYU as a travel partner w/ Utah and finding another school to be the travel partner with Colorado (Kansas perhaps, assuming Texas goes elsewhere)

Great concept---travel partners! How about Texas and Texas A&M??

[Bat'71]

All good points in the preceding posts...football at both the high school and college levels takes on almost a religious significance in the South and Midwest, while in the Northeast it's basketball that generates the most local interest: California is a totally different animal. It's the lack of enthusiasm for local college football in the Northeast that makes me wonder if the BE will maintain it's BCS status if a move is made to expand the SEC, ACC, PAC 10 and Big Ten. The rump schools of the Big XII (Baylor, Texas Tech, Kansans , K-State, and Iowa State) may be forced to join the Mountain West and some of the orphaned BE football schools (assuming UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, and WVa get picked up by the ACC or Big Ten) may need to align themselves with CUSA. I know there are a lot of assumptions in this, but most of it is predicated on the BE having a tenuous hold on being a BCS Conference and the other major conferences wanting to grab even more TV dollars for their expanded member schools.

[UACFlyer]

...I don't think it's inevitable. To me a conference comprised of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Connecticut, Rutgers, West Virginia, South Florida, Louisville, Cincinnatti, Texas Christian, Missouri, Kansas and Kansas State would be competitive with the power conferences. I didn't say as good (yet); I said competitive.

I think UM would prefer something better;...but may not have an option. For KU and KSU, they'd probably feel lucky to become part of such a group.

Football drives the boat...for sure. But academics/research matters quite a bit...geography is next, I suppose.

Everything is in the hands of Oklahoma and Texas. They can hold the Big 12 together, or they can end it. Mizzou would bolt for a good offer as well.

[frisco flyer]

This one hits closer to home for UD. If the story is true, it would be the end of the BE as we know it.

http://news.yahoo.com/report-syracus...035654522.html

[Viperstick]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...?sct=cb_t11_a1

There is yet another possibility that might be more difficult to pull off but would yield a better outcome: Kansas could form a new conference with the Catholic (read: non-football) schools from the Big East. If Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Baylor and Iowa State could find enough other football schools to join the likes of Villanova, St. Johns and Georgetown, that league could still keep its BCS status in football yet remain a powerhouse in hoops. However, since those schools don't get any of the Big East's football money, the league probably would fight to keep them.

What about aligning with other Catholic basketball powers outside the BE?

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by frisco flyer This one hits closer to home for UD. If the story is true, it would be the end of the BE as we know it. http://news.yahoo.com/report-syracus...035654522.html

While the ACC has been quiet, no doubt behind the scenes they have been busy. Academic reputation means a lot to the ACC....and Pitt and SU are tops.

Here's another twist to consider. UConn has a new president, started work July1.....she is a pro-active whirlwind...got rid of the UC AD almost immediately....she comes from the Georgia and is very well connected and very much interested in sports. Suppose the ACC is flirting with UP and SU.....add UConn and Rutgers, two very good schools from the academic/research angle...and the ACC becomes the first 16 team mega conference. All four schools are from the East...the ACC would stretch from North to South.

If UP and SU head to the ACC, in my opinion, RU and UConn should beg to be included.

[MD Flyer Pride]

This is getting very interesting...

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...ks-source-says

[Orangeman]

let's face it....syracuse it too good for the current big east....i mean south florida? really? lol

[bobber]

This is it...!!!!!!!!

[frisco flyer]

Wouldn't it be something if the B12 and BE pick up the pieces and join forces to form a conference that stretches from coast to coast? Sports other than football and basketball wouldn't necessarily like the travel, but if a conference like that formed and started their own TV network, they would have a higher Nielsen rating than ESPN during football and basketball seasons.

[Bat'71]

It's getting a little comical don'tcha think? Watching the scramble that's going on among the football "elites" and "elite-wanna-be's" for a spot in more established BCS Conferences is really quite a show (and not necessarily a pretty sight.) It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out, but some schools are going to be left holding the bag, with their BCS status shaken or eliminated. Please pass the popcorn.

[UACFlyer]

....maybe out of necessity.

It depends a lot on the financials of 16 team conferences. If there is enough added dough to feed 16 team leagues, it appears that's where we'll go, e.g., Pitt, SU, RU and UConn to the ACC.

But, if there is enough uncertainty re the TV money to slow the move to mega-conferences, then the remaining Big East and Big 12 fragments could form a pretty attractive conference.

This must be driving school presidents and ADs nuts. The stakes are very high and very long-lasting....maybe close to forever.

We may be close to a forced FB-BB split in the Big East. If so, Dayton may enter the realignment mix. I like the A10, which has been very good for UD. But, I know that UD would not pass up a chance to be affiliated with academically prestigious schools like Georgetown and Villanova,...maybe even ND,

[Chris R]

I still think nothing affects Dayton. Its just a re-arranging of the deck chairs from conference to conference. As long as the BE basketball schools continue to be content with football money in exchange for no bargaining power among conference issues, this train never leaves the station.

[MD Flyer Pride]

Originally Posted by MD Flyer Pride This is getting very interesting... http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...ks-source-says

IMHO, this is a no-brainer for the ACC. To pick up Pittsburgh and Syracuse would solidify the ACC as one of the premier basketball conferences and these 2 teams would rival the likes of Duke, UNC, etc...

It would also allow the ACC to pick up two solid football programs. Not to mention Syracuse would be a great addition to the ACC for Lacrosse.

Many unanswered questions and much speculation, for sure. Wonder what West Virginia would do? Does the A-10 and Big East merge in some fashion? This will be a wild ride.

[Hobopotamus1]

I hope Wabler is ready for this and has already made deals and knows which way the wind is blowing. This is going to happen really quickly. Everyone is going to panic, not wanting to be left out in the cold. Bottom line: we need to be in a conference with the non football BE teams within the next two months or we are in trouble.

	Tim Wabler TIM WABLER Current Director of Athletics for the University of Dayton. Took over for Ted Kissell on Jan. 1, 2009, and brings considerable experience and leadership in athletics. Assistant AD for many years and a former standout baseball player for the Flyers, Wabler has Dayton roots and understands the unique paradigm that makes Flyer athletics and the city of Dayton a tremendous relationship.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by Chris R I still think nothing affects Dayton. Its just a re-arranging of the deck chairs from conference to conference. As long as the BE basketball schools continue to be content with football money in exchange for no bargaining power among conference issues, this train never leaves the station.

But does a basketball conference with 20-22 teams (assuming the Big East adds teams from the Big 12 and perhaps a couple others) really make any sense? (Of course, not much of this makes any sense.)

[Bat'71]

I don't think the rump BE FB schools and the rump Big XII schools will get together...it doesn't make a lot of sense, except as a last resort. However, there just aren't a lot of football powerhouses in that alignment...or fan interest. The lack of talk about the Big Ten in all this is deafening...what are they going to do if Syracuse and Pitt move to the ACC (and perhaps UConn)? Are they content with their current configuration or do they move to get Mizzu, Rutgers and perhaps Kansas? Geeeze, there are a lot of moving parts in all this. The Katz story said the ACC had been contacted by at least 10 schools, so you have to assume those schools have to be from the BE and Big XII (perhaps Texas in that mix?) So while anything can happen (obviously), it looks like the BE and Big XII are toast.

As far as basketball is concerned, it'll be tough for the mega conferences to get 8-10 invites, year-in and year-out, to the Dance. The bottom feeders will remain the bottom feeders in those conferences with little real upside, IMHO. There is room for strong BB conferences to emerge (ala the old Great Midwest or the old CUSA)...this could happen again. While UD and X need to be alert for a changing environment, it is probably too early to try to set firm plans before things really shake out. Some combination of the BE BB schools and A-10 schools would probably make the most sense, but that could result in a bloodbath in Philly, D.C. and possibly in New England. Small market schools could also be out in the cold (i.e. the Bonnies), but I think we and X are probably in pretty good shape regardless, but you never know.

	St Bonaventure SAINT BONAVENTURE Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf.

[UACFlyer]

Bat, there are 14 schools in the A10 and 7 BE BB-only schools, plus ND if, as Brew has always asserted, ND would stick with the BB schools if the BE split. So, 21 (or 22) schools are more than enough for two conferences. But, of course, the seven or eight BE schools will do all they can to add the strongest one,two, three,...A10 schools.

In my opinion, the risk for UD, if there is a risk, is that UD may find itself left in the weakened conference. Of course, it can argued that UD would be a highly desirable addition to a BE-based new conference....along with X. But, that may be too simple.

I recall Ted K. telling me at least ten years ago that "you don't want a conference comprised of only Catholic schools". What I don't recall is the reason he gave....although I think it had something to do with recruiting.

Whatever, the FB chaos is interesting to watch; but it's got to agony for some schools.

[UACFlyer]

The chairman of the Big East executive committee is the Pitt chancellor, who conference members thought was working diligently to solidify the conference.....and the Big East commissioner learned of the defection of Pitt and Syracuse from the media; neither school informed him of their intention to leave the conference.

Classy!

Quite clearly, it's "every man" for himself.

One last item....most "experts" seem to think that the ACC will go almost immediately to 16 members, meaning two more besides UP and SU. Where would they come from other than the Big East? So while everyone was giving the Big 12 the last rites, instead it appears as if it's the Big East that will be disolving.

[rasta man]

ACC is now calling a teleconference for 9:30AM EDT Sunday, also remember UT and OU have BOR meetings for Monday PM regarding conference affiliations. This is now moving faster than Usian Bolt in the 100M.

TBPH I have no clue whats going to happen next, I kind of hope we wind up in a conference with the BB Big East Schools (who hold the rights to the name "Big East") I think they would take us with X given the rivalry, our facillities and improvement in our program. I think we are in a far better situation then in 94 when C-USA formed out of the Great Midwest.

[Viperstick]

Texas goes indy along with ND, joins forces with Catholic schools to reform Big East as a basketball only conference.

Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St Johns
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
ND
Texas
Xavier
Dayton
SLU

Only problem is Texas kinda sticks out like a sore thumb in that arrangement.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Chris R]

Notre Dame will only stick with the BE basketball schools if the resulting non-football conference comprising those BE schools and other included schools provides a high enough level of competition in Olympic sports. ND will not sacrifice their olympic sport competitiveness for just having basketball in a good league.

This is one of the things Dayton really has going for them at the moment -- national competitiveness in things besides basketball. Youll still need a good basketball program -- ala Xavier -- but Dayton should get a seat at the table when its time. Those UD olympic sports help mask the annual second half of the season meltdowns of the Flyer basketball program.

Still, I think youll need to pry the BE basketball schools out of that conference with a crowbar. They love the football money too much.

Id take Creighton in any league. Awesome basketball fan base, terrific soccer, and home to the college world series. Might be a bit far geographically.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Bat'71]

Given what appears to be transpiring, I doubt the BE football conference can survive and maintain it's BCS designation; I'd be surprised if UConn, WVa, RU and U of L aren't among the other eight or more schools that have inquired about ACC affiliation (or perhaps even SEC affiliation.) Once entities or individuals start thinking along the lines of a break-up with existing relationships, it's hard for them to get fully engaged and committed again. As far as the Big XII is concerned, if OU or Okie State leave (and they are considering it), they're pretty much toast as a BCS conference and TA&M will likely be able to commit to the SEC with little or no legal headaches.

As far as the BE BB schools and A-10 are concerned, I see your point UAC, but it's highly unlikely any alliance would include the three Philly A-10 schools, Fordham or GW given overlaps with the existing BE schools in those markets. In addition, I doubt that URI or UMass would co-exist with Providence (plus, I believe UMass and URI are looking to go D-1 in football and are probably looking for some sort of conference affiliation for that (the MAC maybe?) ND may feel compelled to eventually join the Big Ten, while St. Louis may wish to move to the MVC. Richmond and Charlotte have had past affiliations with some BE BB schools and do command some interesting markets as well so they may remain in the mix unless they have set their sights elsewhere (CUSA?) Anyway, there are a lot of moving parts to all this and, as has been noted previously, anything can happen...so, while I think we'll land on our feet (along with X), it is a tad unsettling, but also interesting. What's that old Chinese curse..."May you live in interesting times"? I think we are doing just that.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	Charlotte CHARLOTTE UNC Charlotte is one of a generation of universities founded in metropolitan areas of the United States immediately after World War II in response to rising education demands generated by the war and its technology. Now a research intensive university, UNC Charlotte is the fourth largest of the 16 institutions within the University of North Carolina system and the largest institution in the Charlotte region. The university comprises seven professional colleges and currently offers 18 doctoral programs, 62 master’s degree programs and 90 bachelor’s degrees. More than 900 full-time faculty comprise the university’s academic departments and the 2007 fall enrollment exceeded 22,300 students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the 49ers.

[Fudd]

Is this enough to make the Big East go completely unstable and split the football + basketball schools from the basketball only schools? Is this the fullfillment of all of the conference reallignment prophecies? Or will it take more Big East defections? It seems the level of panic is relatively high right now. All members seem to have their head on a swivel.

[rasta man]

well its official

http://www.theacc.com/genrel/091811aaa.html

[UACFlyer]

...even before athletics.

Bat, of course, three Philly schools would not be welcomed by a new BE BB conference...probably VU would not allow even one. My point was that the BE BB schools will want one, two or three additional members..and they'll want them to be very strong.

The fact that DePaul and Marquette are mid-west schools strongly suggests that new additions would come from the mid-west to balance the east coast schools.

As for your remarks re URI and UMass FB. UMass has upgraded to FBS and has joined the MAC. URI has downgraded and will join the Northeast Conference.

In my opinion, the move by SU and UP opens the flood gates...and will accelerate the move to mega-conferences. Other schools must be on the verge of panic for fear of being left out....as some will be. While the PAC 12, SEC and ACC have been in the news, the Big Ten has been very quiet lately, even saying they will not expand for a while.

I think the ACC move will activate the Big Ten. The BT may prefer to sit still for a while. But, if it does it may very lose the opportunity to cherry pick the schools it would like to have added in a few years. Rutgers and UConn, the BT's ticket to the east coast, will not be sitting around waiting for the Big Ten. I think RU and UC will jump at the first chance they get to join the ACC. Probably the schools are in contact with the ACC now. Thus, if the Big Ten really cares about expanding east.....they had better get busy.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[rasta man]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer ...even before athletics. Bat, of course, three Philly schools would not be welcomed by a new BE BB conference...probably VU would not allow even one. My point was that the BE BB schools will want one, two or three additional members..and they'll want them to be very strong. The fact that DePaul and Marquette are mid-west schools strongly suggests that new additions would come from the mid-west to balance the east coast schools. As for your remarks re URI and UMass FB. UMass has upgraded to FBS and has joined the MAC. URI has downgraded and will join the Northeast Conference. In my opinion, the move by SU and UP opens the flood gates...and will accelerate the move to mega-conferences. Other schools must be on the verge of panic for fear of being left out....as some will be. While the PAC 12, SEC and ACC have been in the news, the Big Ten has been very quiet lately, even saying they will not expand for a while. I think the ACC move will activate the Big Ten. The BT may prefer to sit still for a while. But, if it does it may very lose the opportunity to cherry pick the schools it would like to have added in a few years. Rutgers and UConn, the BT's ticket to the east coast, will not be sitting around waiting for the Big Ten. I think RU and UC will jump at the first chance they get to join the ACC. Probably the schools are in contact with the ACC now. Thus, if the Big Ten really cares about expanding east.....they had better get busy.

I'm hearing UConn and Rutgers are looking towards the ACC, if so that is really a great move by the ACC to cut off the B1G at the pass regarding a move east. If that happens will the B1G take Kansas, Mizzou and force ND's hand?

BTW Seth Davis just tweeted:

The Big 12 and Big East are gonna have to figure something out together. May be time for what's left of the BE to jettison Catholic schools

hmmm, that sounds good for us. Like Chris R said we now have a great Olympic sports programs in volleyball and soccer that has to be a plus for us regarding this new league. Besides could you imagine us playing in the Garden for a conference tournament? That sure beats AC

	Chris Rieman CHRIS RIEMAN, PUBLISHER Founder and publisher of UDPride.com. Writer, photographer, videographer, coder, grip, comedian, auto aficionado, and lifelong Flyer fan.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Gazoo A lot of things are obvious in retrospect that seems improbable before they happened. It would have been ridiculous 15 years ago to imagine the Big East looking like it does now. Anyone that suggested it would have been laughed out of the bar. A lot of things about it made no sense, and there's no point in you and I rehashing it now (when it clearly makes all the sense in the world). Ex-post we can all claim how smart we were in proclaiming that we knew it would work all along. Or not. Whatever your point of view. All I'm saying is, in my opinion there is a time coming when it will cease to make sense, the football programs will want the shackles off, and then it will be obvious to everyone even if it isn't now. The NCAA will get just a little too bothersome, the rules too tedious, and there will be a tide of change where the big schools will sweep the Dayton's and _avier's of the world into another class.

As I said, Brew, a lot of things seem improbable until they happen!

[Bat'71]

The NY Post has an interesting take on what's transpiring and it doesn't bode well for the BE football programs, despite a brave face put on by it's commissioner. It seems the BE was looking to add the Kansas, K-State and Mizzu programs before the Pitt/Syracuse bombshell...now, who knows? It seems the Big Ten may have to act sooner rather than later if it wants a Northeast presence, with conjecture that Rutgers and UConn may be talking to the ACC now. In addition, ND may have to get off the pot as well. http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/colle...wABdEy9Y90r3ZJ

As far as UMass and URI are concerned, I wasn't sure what their status was in regard to their FB programs, but I had heard a while ago they were reviewing their status. With Temple playing MAC FB and UMass following suit, could pressure build on them to join that conference full-time? I know it's a lot of conjecture, but at some point doesn't some rationality have to ensue with league affiliations? Well, maybe not...these moves all involve acadamia in one way or another.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[Title_BU]

Like everything that has led to this point, everything beyond this point will be led by one thing - monetization.

In order to secure the best media/promotional/distribution deals while minimizing cost, all conferences that result from this total shake-up the priorities are going to access to quality media markets, individual program prestige (which drives distribution deals), geographic positioning for travel costs (mostly specific to non-revenue sports).

It's an easy connection to make, because it makes some sense. But, this isn't 1968 nonsecretatin vs catholic is going to be way down the list of priorities of these PROFIT MAXMIZERS. People are even taking for granted the Big East schools even stick together, that in of itself isn't even a guarantee.

Dayton has a very good chance of be a part of this. It just won't have anything more than a passing interest it's charter's religious affiliation. Having some panache in the new league's revenue sport -basketball (and being geographically conducive) is just more relevant in today's climate
Posted via Mobile Device

[Sea Bass]

IMO all the basketball only schools can do is sit and wait for the football leagues to sort themselves out.

ND to the big10 seems like a no brainer at this point.

The Big East and Big 12 are dead.

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by Viperstick Texas goes indy along with ND, joins forces with Catholic schools to reform Big East as a basketball only conference. Georgetown Villanova Providence St Johns Seton Hall Marquette DePaul ND Texas Xavier Dayton SLU Only problem is Texas kinda sticks out like a sore thumb in that arrangement.

take Texas and ND out of it and you have something that is possible. It would be a bad decision to be independent in football. The Big 10 network makes even the bad football schools more lucrative than ND.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[xubrew]

Originally Posted by Gazoo As I said, Brew, a lot of things seem improbable until they happen!

True, but there doesn't appear to be a lot of cohesiveness among the major programs right now. Collectively leaving the NCAA would require a collective direction that doesn't appear to exist at the moment.

FWIW, I have a feeling that UConn and Rutgers are right behind Pitt and Syracuse in joining the ACC.

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by xubrew True, but there doesn't appear to be a lot of cohesiveness among the major programs right now. Collectively leaving the NCAA would require a collective direction that doesn't appear to exist at the moment. FWIW, I have a feeling that UConn and Rutgers are right behind Pitt and Syracuse in joining the ACC.

the ACC doesn't have to take 2 more (although they certainly could). IMO the NCAA stays out of the way completely(not that there is much they could do) because they can't afford to PO the football powers.

My thought is that the Big10 goes to 14 with ND and Missouri. PAC10 add the Oklahoma and Texas schools. The SEC adds one and maybe you have three conferences with 14 and one with 16.

But who know at this. I do know that the BE and Big12 are certainly finished. No one wants to be without a chair when the music stops but some will.

[Sea Bass]

Originally Posted by Title_BU Dayton has a very good chance of be a part of this. It just won't have anything more than a passing interest it's charter's religious affiliation. Having some panache in the new league's revenue sport -basketball (and being geographically conducive) is just more relevant in today's climate Posted via Mobile Device

A league like the A10 has always been a mishmash. Smaller religious schools mixed with state schools spread across a large geographic area. Honestly a Catholic league of 10 schools makes a lot of sense as well as capturing the media markets, although the Flyers exellence in other sports(Soccer/Vollyball/Womens basketball) may help them as much as Mens basketball.

I remember being bitter when the Great Midwest dissolved but honestly the Flyers overall athletic program was in such a sorry state it had no business being in a league with the other members of CUSA.

[shapanud]

Originally Posted by Sea Bass take Texas and ND out of it and you have something that is possible. It would be a bad decision to be independent in football. The Big 10 network makes even the bad football schools more lucrative than ND.

Hardly. Do not underestimate the importance of the NBC contract for ND. I don't see how they can keep that to themselves and join the Big 10. They aren't going to share NBC money and I don't see the Big 10 offering to share Big 10 TV money with no ND home games being part of the Big 10's ESPN/ABC/BTN deal. Something major will have to change for ND to go to the Big 10.

[UACFlyer]

...add more teams. But, if 16 team super-conferences is the wave of the very near-term future, how many options does the ACC have? Would the ACC rather have Texas and ND over UConn and Rutgers? Almost surely. But what happens if the ACC waits and it cannot get either of those schools....and the Big Ten steps in and grabs UConn or Rutgers or both?

The ACC is as "particular" as the Big Ten when it comes to academics/research....unlike the SEC. I cannot imagine West Virginia, for example, having a chance at either the ACC or Big Ten, even though WVU has a very good FB and athletics program. And, the ACC has no assurance that the SEC will not poach a team or two.

Also, the media in CT and elsewhere are reporting that UConn's new president, very well connected and with a southern background, has been all over the ACC re UC membership. Probably RU has been as well. The ACC said over ten schools have approached it re membership. Texas is one. Missouri another....only those two have the overall package that UConn and Rutgers offer. So, the ACC may be able to pick and choose....but the Big Ten could pounce at any time....and of the four schools I've mentioned, only Texas wouldn't leap to join the Big Ten....the other three would in a heart beat. So the ACC has to be careful, IMHO.

Re the mention that the A10 geography is widespread...true,...but no more than that of the BE BB schools. Add X, UD and SLU to the seven BE BB schools and you have an impressive, geographically balanced conference with good TV exposure. If ND stays with those school, even better.

I don't think it will take long for this to shake out. Pitt and SU have really lit the fire.

(By the way, the BE BB-only schools have seen this coming for a long time. I'm sure they have a Plan A, B and C.)

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[springborofan]

There are 7 teams left from the BE. ND is the wildcard. If ND stays, then X and UD would be the logical top 3.

I think St Louis will go to the Missouri Valley

If ND goes to the Big 10 (I think they will), I could see Duquesne as the best logical choice for the 10th team due to geography and Pittsburgh market.

If there was a desire to have 12 teams Duquesne joins the 5 Eastern Big East teams and You could see St. Louis and Creighton. Marq/Depaul, UD/XU, and St. Louis/Creighton as travel partners. Or, they could go with Butler and MAYBE Detroit?

Overall, I think the TX and OK schools will go to Pac 16. I think Missouri and ND make the most sense for the Big 10. WVU is the 14th team in the SEC and UConn and Rutgers go the ACC. If ND decides to remain independent than Kansas slides over to the Big 10.

UC, Baylor, Louisville, Iowa State, TCU, Kansas, Kansas State seem to be the big losers. They may join together with Memphis, and Houston to make a conference. That is not a bad basketball conference!

If that is the case, then South Florida truly is the team without a conference. (Conf USA?)

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[xubrew]

I get the sense that the ACC wants sixteen, and they want to pretty much lock up the entire east coast as their market.

A possible sixteen team format could be as follows:

NORTH: Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, Rutgers, Maryland, UVA, VA Tech, BC (essentially, many schools that were once in the Big East along with Maryland and Virginia).

SOUTH: Duke, UNC, Wake, NC State, Ga Tech, Clemson, Miami, FSU.

In football, it's your seven division games, plus one other game, plus the championship.

In basketball/all other sports, they could do it the way the old WAC did it and have seven home division home and homes, plus one home and home with a team from the other division (16 games), or do seven divsional home and homes, and play four single games against teams from the other division, and alternate those each year. (18 games).


At this point, I have to question whether any ACC teams are looking to bolt. If they have decided to go this direction, just the fact that they were able to come to that decision makes me believe that they're uniform in wanting to keep the league together. It will create and preserve rivalries, it would have a huge media footprint, and it would be a great competitive conference.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if this, or something similiar to this, is how the ACC ends up. Furthermore, they've probably been working toward this for awhile. It's just that the public is just now getting wind of it.

[UACFlyer]

We can see ways the PAC 12 could get to i6....how the SEC could get to 16...and how the ACC could get to 16. But, the Big Ten has been quiet...not much speculation...and we know that the Big Ten is very, very fussy when it comes to academic/research reputation. That limits its choices.

If the Big Ten feels it had better get to 14 before it's too late...or even 16...that could upset the apple cart. The BT might go after an ACC team or two to get the east coast market....and/or they might go after Rutgers or UConn.

The PAC 12 is far away and the SEC doesn't care all that much about academics and research. For the ACC and Big Ten both to get to 16 requires six candidates with good athletics and academics...along with TV markets. Are there six available from the Big East and Big 12 that meet ACC and Big Ten criteria? Missouri, Rutgers, UConn, Texas, ND? I don't think either conference would want to go as far west as Kansas....and the politicians might require that KU and KSU go anywhere as a package.

Maybe the Big Ten rerally doesn't care about having 16 teams. If it appears that the four power conferences are headed toward 16, how can that not force ND's hand?

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer For the ACC and Big Ten both to get to 16 requires six candidates with good athletics and academics...along with TV markets. Are there six available from the Big East and Big 12 that meet ACC and Big Ten criteria? Missouri, Rutgers, UConn, Texas, ND? I don't think either conference would want to go as far west as Kansas....and the politicians might require that KU and KSU go anywhere as a package. ?

Did you forget the Big 10 already added Nebraska? To me Kansas as a neighbor only makes sense.

[THirt]

[QUOTE=UACFlyer;235987the ACC has no assurance that the SEC will not poach a team or two.[/QUOTE]

FWIW, I read somewhere today (ESPN I think) that the ACC is raising the buyout to exit the conference to around $20 million. Seems that would make it more difficult to leave. Plus, with the current (future?) setup, I'm not clear what advantage would be gained by anyone who would leave.

Man, this stuff is interesting. It's kind of sad that it is pretty much entirely about money, but that's life these days. It's also a little sad that it's all about football. For someone who cares much, much more about basketball, it's all kind of annoying. For example, it's hard for me to fathom that someone wouldn't want Kansas, but then again, their football team has been an afterthought except for a couple of good years. It's just hard to change my mindset.

This has been the most interesting offseason ever.

[Viperstick]

If the ACC doesn't go to 16, it would be a mistake. Right now, the ACC has seized the initiative by going to 14 before anyone else. The fact that they have eight other schools that have contacted them indicates eight schools that are looking to exit their current situation. Right now the ACC can be picky, if they wait and decide to go to 16 later, they'll get whatever is left over. Kudos to them, they've played this pretty well thusfar, to include upping the exit fee to lock down possible defections to higher profile football conferences.

The Big 10 & PAC-10 ceded the initiative last year when both halted their expansion at 12. At the time, the Big 10 could have made a legitimate play for any of Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, UCONN, Ga Tech, Maryland, Mizzou, or OU and stood a reasonable chance of getting whomever they wanted. The PAC-10 re-engaged when the latest round of realignment began two months ago and is likely to pick up OU & OSU with Texas & TTU also a possibility. The Big 10 is in danger of being an also ran in this round of realignment.

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer We can see ways the PAC 12 could get to i6....how the SEC could get to 16...and how the ACC could get to 16. But, the Big Ten has been quiet...not much speculation...and we know that the Big Ten is very, very fussy when it comes to academic/research reputation. That limits its choices. If the Big Ten feels it had better get to 14 before it's too late...or even 16...that could upset the apple cart. The BT might go after an ACC team or two to get the east coast market....and/or they might go after Rutgers or UConn. The PAC 12 is far away and the SEC doesn't care all that much about academics and research. For the ACC and Big Ten both to get to 16 requires six candidates with good athletics and academics...along with TV markets. Are there six available from the Big East and Big 12 that meet ACC and Big Ten criteria? Missouri, Rutgers, UConn, Texas, ND? I don't think either conference would want to go as far west as Kansas....and the politicians might require that KU and KSU go anywhere as a package. Maybe the Big Ten rerally doesn't care about having 16 teams. If it appears that the four power conferences are headed toward 16, how can that not force ND's hand?

Another crazy thought....what if Villanova decides to go big time in football and they join up with Notre Dame and join the Big 10? It adds Philly to the Big 10 market and VU is a strong academic institution. What if they go after Vanderbilt and Missouri as well?

[Bat'71]

This frenzy of conference realignment has in all probability saved 'Nova from the expense and embarrassment of going "Big Time" in college football and being left at the altar anyway. There are too many more established FBS programs with better facilities and stronger FB fan bases than 'Nova would ever hope to have and there are only a limited number of slots available in a four mega-conference configuration (which appears we are rapidly approaching.)

ESPN reported last night that the PAC 12 was seriously considering an expansion that would include Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Okie State...so that could get settled pretty quickly (or, I guess could fall apart quickly...we'll see.) If, as has been mentioned in other posts here (and would seem to be a logical move), UConn and Rutgers move to join the ACC, then it looks like the SEC and Big Ten would be forced to do something to finally settle matters. Could ND and Mizzu fill out the Big Ten and maybe WVa and Louisville join the SEC...quite possibly; geographically they all fit and have rabid fans that will travel well and support their teams. I know ND has always wanted to remain independent so they could play a "national" schedule and appease their alumni base and gain recruiting advantages over other schools (especially Catholic universities). However, they may find it in their best interest to join the likes of the Big Ten which would still allow them to play four-to-five FB games outside the conference and maintain a more "national" schedule while providing a solid league for all their other non-revenue generating sports. If this were to pan out (or something like it) then the remaining rump FB schools of the BE and Big XII (Cinci, SFU, KU, KSU, ISU, and Baylor) would probably have to look toward the Mountain West, MVC, MAC or CUSA for affiliation and that could result in a reshuffling of those conferences as well. Hoo, boy...you can get a little dizzy doing this, can't you?

[Fan4allUDSports]

I think that when all is said and done where we(UD) are will be an interesting place. If we(the nation) see four, sixteen team conferences, we will most certainly see Notre Dame in the Big 10, and they will probably get to keep their NBC money as well as a limited pie of the the Big 10 money, the same way it is being reported UT will keep the Longhorn Network by telecasting other Pac-16 schools. The question will be who is left when the music stops

Pac-16
Arizona
Arizona St.
Cal-Berkley
Colorado
Oregon
Oregon St.
Stanford
UCLA
USC
Utah
Washington
Washington St.
Texas
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma St.

ACC

Boston College
Clemson
Duke
Florida St.
Georgia Tech.
Maryland
Miami(FL)
UNC
North Carolina St.
Virginia
Virginia Tech.
Wake Forest
Pitt
Syracuse
Rutgers
UConn

SEC

Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
South Carolina
Tennesse
Vanderbilt
Alabama
Arkansas
Auburn
LSU
Miss. St.
Mississippi
Texas A&M
Louisville
Cincy
WVU

Big-16

Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Michigan
Michigan St.
Minnesota
Nebraska
Northwestern
Ohio St.
Penn St.
Purdue
Wisconsin
Notre Dame
Kansas
Kansas St.
DePaul


I think this will be how it all breaks down. I see WVU as a key holder(whether they go SEC or BIg 16) as well as the relationship between K-State and Kanas(both will wind up together). U of L and Cincy both appear to be good candidates for the SEC based on geography and the fact that they will bring the conference into somewhat georgraphical balance. I just have a feeling about DePaul being able to jump to the Big 16. As for the rest of the schools where do they go? Boise St. I think is left with the worst hand in all of this for football.

As for basketball here is where things get interesting. Some big names left

Georgetown
Marquette
St. John's
Villanova

Could they join a revamped A-16? It would make the most sense since we would then be the biggest 16 team conference, and I could see how if SLU were to join the MVC with Missouri how we could somehow get some of these schools to join.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Bat'71 This frenzy of conference realignment has in all probability saved 'Nova from the expense and embarrassment of going "Big Time" in college football and being left at the altar anyway. There are too many more established FBS programs with better facilities and stronger FB fan bases than 'Nova would ever hope to have and there are only a limited number of slots available in a four mega-conference configuration (which appears we are rapidly approaching.) ESPN reported last night that the PAC 12 was seriously considering an expansion that would include Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Okie State...so that could get settled pretty quickly (or, I guess could fall apart quickly...we'll see.) If, as has been mentioned in other posts here (and would seem to be a logical move), UConn and Rutgers move to join the ACC, then it looks like the SEC and Big Ten would be forced to do something to finally settle matters. Could ND and Mizzu fill out the Big Ten and maybe WVa and Louisville join the SEC...quite possibly; geographically they all fit and have rabid fans that will travel well and support their teams. I know ND has always wanted to remain independent so they could play a "national" schedule and appease their alumni base and gain recruiting advantages over other schools (especially Catholic universities). However, they may find it in their best interest to join the likes of the Big Ten which would still allow them to play four-to-five FB games outside the conference and maintain a more "national" schedule while providing a solid league for all their other non-revenue generating sports. If this were to pan out (or something like it) then the remaining rump FB schools of the BE and Big XII (Cinci, SFU, KU, KSU, ISU, and Baylor) would probably have to look toward the Mountain West, MVC, MAC or CUSA for affiliation and that could result in a reshuffling of those conferences as well. Hoo, boy...you can get a little dizzy doing this, can't you?

Villanova just dodged a major bullet. The collapse of the Big East could have occurred after VU made a committment and spent a lot of money. VU will stay at FCS level.

As for ND,...the Irish was schdule flexibility. But they already have ~50% of their schedule frozen each year. They always play Mich, Mich St, Purdue, USC, Navy, Stanford....that's six....but three of the six are in the Big Ten. So ND could continue to play the other three every year. But, would it be an earth-shaking compromise to play those three every other year so as to allow a bit more flexibility? Of course not.

[Fan4allUDSports]

UAC you bring up a good point. I could see Stanford/USC alternating ever year and home away somewhat altering(home-Stanford, away USC, home USC, away Stanford). I don't see them dropping Navy though.

[Fairways & Greens]

This blog is saying there is a conference call with basketball only Big East schools this morning and talk of Dayton and Xavier joining is prevalent.

http://www.thenovablog.com/2011/9/19...ence-villanova

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Flyer4ever24]

Does Depaul even play football?

Originally Posted by Fan4allUDSports I think that when all is said and done where we(UD) are will be an interesting place. If we(the nation) see four, sixteen team conferences, we will most certainly see Notre Dame in the Big 10, and they will probably get to keep their NBC money as well as a limited pie of the the Big 10 money, the same way it is being reported UT will keep the Longhorn Network by telecasting other Pac-16 schools. The question will be who is left when the music stops Pac-16 Arizona Arizona St. Cal-Berkley Colorado Oregon Oregon St. Stanford UCLA USC Utah Washington Washington St. Texas Texas Tech Oklahoma Oklahoma St. ACC Boston College Clemson Duke Florida St. Georgia Tech. Maryland Miami(FL) UNC North Carolina St. Virginia Virginia Tech. Wake Forest Pitt Syracuse Rutgers UConn SEC Florida Georgia Kentucky South Carolina Tennesse Vanderbilt Alabama Arkansas Auburn LSU Miss. St. Mississippi Texas A&M Louisville Cincy WVU Big-16 Illinois Indiana Iowa Michigan Michigan St. Minnesota Nebraska Northwestern Ohio St. Penn St. Purdue Wisconsin Notre Dame Kansas Kansas St. DePaul I think this will be how it all breaks down. I see WVU as a key holder(whether they go SEC or BIg 16) as well as the relationship between K-State and Kanas(both will wind up together). U of L and Cincy both appear to be good candidates for the SEC based on geography and the fact that they will bring the conference into somewhat georgraphical balance. I just have a feeling about DePaul being able to jump to the Big 16. As for the rest of the schools where do they go? Boise St. I think is left with the worst hand in all of this for football. As for basketball here is where things get interesting. Some big names left Georgetown Marquette St. John's Villanova Could they join a revamped A-16? It would make the most sense since we would then be the biggest 16 team conference, and I could see how if SLU were to join the MVC with Missouri how we could somehow get some of these schools to join.

[Bat'71]

I think ND is on record (I believe it was Father Hesburgh) as having said they would never drop Navy, unless Navy wanted to opt out. During WWII, Navy provided something of a life-line to ND by continuing to schedule them during the war years, and ND vowed never to forget it. I think ND is pretty committed to playing both Navy and USC come hell or high water...other than that I think everything is negotiable. Plus, as UAC points out, ND pretty much plays three Big Ten teams every year, so they're pretty much half way there already as far as a Big Ten schedule would go.

Fan4allUDSports, I think your reconfigured conferences look rational and could make a lot of sense, but I don't see why you added DePaul (even though they don't have FB and Northwestern, ND and the Illini pretty much own the Chicago market) to your newly reconfigured Big 16 (Big Ten), while you have left Mizzu out in the cold. Now anything can happen (as has oft been repeated), but overall your selections look reasonable for the most part.

[xubrew]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer the Irish was schdule flexibility. But they already have ~50% of their schedule frozen each year. They always play Mich, Mich St, Purdue, USC, Navy, Stanford....that's six....but three of the six are in the Big Ten. So ND could continue to play the other three every year. But, would it be an earth-shaking compromise to play those three every other year so as to allow a bit more flexibility? Of course not.

I believe Notre Dame has completed their entire football schedule until the year 2018. That's not to say it can't be changed, but joining a league would mean buying out of many of those, which would be both expensive and tedious. I'm not ruling it out. I'm just saying that Notre Dame does not need to join a conference for scheduling purposes.

Originally Posted by THirt FWIW, I read somewhere today (ESPN I think) that the ACC is raising the buyout to exit the conference to around $20 million. Seems that would make it more difficult to leave. Plus, with the current (future?) setup, I'm not clear what advantage would be gained by anyone who would leave.

This is true, and it was unanimously voted on by all current ACC members. that is another reason to believe the league will stay together and that no one will bolt for the SEC. You don't vote to raise the penalty to $20 million if you're even considering leaving the conference. It was UNANIMOUS. I don't think anyone is leaving.

FWIW, the Big East buyout is $5 million, and that is assuming the league doesn't dissolve. I'm uncertain what it is for the Big Ten, Pac Twelve, or SEC. I don't think it really matters, though, since none of those teams seem to be going anywhere.

[xubrew]

...In other news, it is my understanding that a conference call will take place today among ND, Marquette, DePaul, Nova, Gtown, Seton Hall, SJU and Providence to assess the situation.

	St Joseph's ST. JOSEPH'S Founded by the Society of Jesus in 1851, Saint Joseph's University advances the professional and personal ambitions of men and women by providing a demanding, yet supportive educational experience. One of only 139 schools nationwide with a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and AACSB business school accreditation, Saint Joseph's is home to 4,200 full-time undergraduates and 3,100 graduate, part-time and doctoral candidates. Located in urban Philadelphia, SJU is a fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Hawks. Athletic claim to fame is is the Hawk mascot, a university student on full scholarship who wears a Hawk uniform and flaps his wings continuously for an entire athletic event. School spirit slogan is "The Hawk Will Never Die."

[Fan4allUDSports]

Don't know why I added DePaul either, wasn't really thinking I guess. Though one could take out DePaul and add Missouri. Still will be really interesting to see where it all sits in the coming weeks.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Bat'71 I think ND is on record (I believe it was Father Hesburgh) as having said they would never drop Navy, unless Navy wanted to opt out. During WWII, Navy provided something of a life-line to ND by continuing to schedule them during the war years, and ND vowed never to forget it. I think ND is pretty committed to playing both Navy and USC come hell or high water...other than that I think everything is negotiable. Plus, as UAC points out, ND pretty much plays three Big Ten teams every year, so they're pretty much half way there already as far as a Big Ten schedule would go. Fan4allUDSports, I think your reconfigured conferences look rational and could make a lot of sense, but I don't see why you added DePaul (even though they don't have FB and Northwestern, ND and the Illini pretty much own the Chicago market) to your newly reconfigured Big 16 (Big Ten), while you have left Mizzu out in the cold. Now anything can happen (as has oft been repeated), but overall your selections look reasonable for the most part.

True, the Navy did keep ND "afloat" (no pun intended) during the war years; but it had nothing to do with football. Coming out of the depression, schools were in dire financial straights, incl ND. The Navy turned ND into what could have been mistaken for a Navy base....with thousands of Navy personel living on-site at ND while undergoing training.....which provided much-needed financial support for the school. And for that Hesburgh made his promise..which I believe will be kept.

[Bat'71]

Well according to Fairways & Greens and Xbrew the BE BB schools are having a conference call to assess their situation. Could 'Nova really be petitioning the ACC for acceptance at this point and would the BE BB schools be talking with UD and X, while not considering the Dukes (and the Pittsburgh market?) It seems that the wheel goes 'round and 'round and where it stops nobody knows. To paraphrase a famous bear (Pooh , I believe)...it gets curiouser and curiouser. I'm gonna get me some Popcorn and watch the show.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[UACFlyer]

...will be given any consideration whatsoever. This is a high stakes game...the power conferences have far too many good options to consider an FBS start-up program....not with the likes of Rutgers and UConn around.

Also, VU provides a poor institutional fit with power conference schools. While very good academically at the undergrad level, VU is a regional masters-level school. In contrast, with possibly one or two exceptions (although I can't think of any), the schools of the ACC are major national, doctoral research universities, most if not all with large medical schools, etc. VU does not fit that mold any better than Dayton would. Indeed, Dayton probably would be a better fit institutionally (not that I.m suggesting that for a second).

[301Lowes]

Originally Posted by Fan4allUDSports Don't know why I added DePaul either, wasn't really thinking I guess. Though one could take out DePaul and add Missouri. Still will be really interesting to see where it all sits in the coming weeks.

Speculation:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/130122113.html

[bobber]

Originally Posted by Bat'71 Well according to Fairways & Greens and Xbrew the BE BB schools are having a conference call to assess their situation. Could 'Nova really be petitioning the ACC for acceptance at this point and would the BE BB schools be talking with UD and X, while not considering the Dukes (and the Pittsburgh market?) It seems that the wheel goes 'round and 'round and where it stops nobody knows. To paraphrase a famous bear (Pooh , I believe)...it gets curiouser and curiouser. I'm gonna get me some Popcorn and watch the show.

Nova petitioning the ACC? Have not heard that before. Nova doesn't have FBS football and is not a research university. Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of some alum.

[UACFlyer]

Notre Dame's AD, Jack Swarbrick, is the first and only person I have heard speak out against what is happening. He took issue with schools doing things without any regard to the harm caused to other institutions in their conferences. He made a point of the lack of evidence of trust and integrity of conference members who have an obliagtion not just to their institutions, but to the enterprise. He went on to say that what is happening paints the "industry" in a very bad light.

He is the only person speaking on this matter that is talking about what is "right", not just what is possible or financially beneficial. Swarbrick says he's puzzled and disgusted.,,his distaste for the way Pitt and SU deceived the Big East office and conference members is obvious.

Good for him.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer Notre Dame's AD, Jack Swarbrick, is the first and only person I have heard speak out against what is happening. He took issue with schools doing things without any regard to the harm caused to other institutions in their conferences. He made a point of the lack of evidence of trust and integrity of conference members who have an obliagtion not just to their institutions, but to the enterprise. He went on to say that what is happening paints the "industry" in a very bad light. He is the only person speaking on this matter that is talking about what is "right", not just what is possible or financially beneficial. Swarbrick says he's puzzled and disgusted.,,his distaste for the way Pitt and SU deceived the Big East office and conference members is obvious. Good for him.

Wasn't it just a few months ago that Jim Boeheim said this wasn't going to happen? At the same time Jim Calhoun said this was likely to happen??

I think you even made a comment to the effect that Boeheim is just as Senior and "in the know" as Calhoun...and now it appears we know who was telling the truth.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer Notre Dame's AD, Jack Swarbrick, is the first and only person I have heard speak out against what is happening. He took issue with schools doing things without any regard to the harm caused to other institutions in their conferences. He made a point of the lack of evidence of trust and integrity of conference members who have an obliagtion not just to their institutions, but to the enterprise. He went on to say that what is happening paints the "industry" in a very bad light. He is the only person speaking on this matter that is talking about what is "right", not just what is possible or financially beneficial. Swarbrick says he's puzzled and disgusted.,,his distaste for the way Pitt and SU deceived the Big East office and conference members is obvious. Good for him.

That's easy for him to say - he's not in a conference. He is looking out for one thing - Notre Dame. He's probably afraid Notre Dame will be left out in the cold or will be forced to join a conference. He is doing the same thing these other schools are doing - what he thinks is best for his school. Of course he doesn't want a conference shake up. He likes things just the way they are. He can have his cake and eat it too. That is Notre Dame's typical attitude.

[UACFlyer]

...that is ND's typical attitude. But Swarbrick's emphasis on the unseemly way the process is unfolding.....the complete lack of trust and integrity,....with no regard to adverse impact on other institutions is right on the mark and did not have to be said.

I agree with what he said and admire him for speaking out.

[Chris R]

I follow ND football a lot and watch their football forums, which, at times, has a lot of crossover talk on all ND sports.

The temperature Im getting from ND is they really idolize the independence in their football program because its represents their national catholic university posture to the country. They play Navy, USC, Stanford, and MSU every single year. Worst case, Navy and USC will never (NEVERRRRRRR) be compromised on their football schedule. And you can add at least one or both of Stanford and Michigan State. Most likely Stanford. So thats three games a year in the non-con that are locked. Given a 7-8 game conference schedule, their football schedule would be mostly static every year, eliminating their ability to play anyone, anytime. They have contracts with Texas and Oklahoma coming up, among other big teams. Those would be forfeited.

As long as ND maintains their special considerations for BCS bowl eligibility by the BCS, I think they are content to remain independent in football. An 8-5 ND football team is a 4-3 league record in the Big10 or ACC anyway -- removing any BCS automatic bid. Were ND on top of the football world, those BCS auto berths might mean something, but they arent good enough to challenge for them so the lure of the BCS auto bid is lessened.

ND is also extremely committed to olympic sports because it maintains their national recruiting draw and ethnic diversity. They will not run them under the bus for football. They may or may not end up joining a league, but it will be a decision made in the best interest of the entire athletic department, not just football or mens basketball.

Dayton and Notre Dame used to be conference members in the MCC, along with Marquette. Notre Dame did not compete in mens hoops in the MCC.

I think NDs loyalty will be to the BE basketball schools because thats where their major sport in the league rests. But it remains to be seen if ND has any inclination to team up with them and form some newfangled basketball-only conference.

[bobber]

Originally Posted by bobber Nova petitioning the ACC? Have not heard that before. Nova doesn't have FBS football and is not a research university. Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of some alum.

Well I'll be........says so right here. It just gets curiouser and curiouser.

http://www.zagsblog.com/2011/09/19/r...pplied-to-acc/

[Bat'71]

Longtimefan, what you say has some truth to it...a lot of it may be self-serving on ND's part, but the essence of what Swarbrick said is true...this really is a pathetic display of outright GREED on the part of these "Institutions of Higher Learning" and it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the integrity of the individuals running these institutions or their conferences. No matter how this gets "spun", there is no way of putting it in a good light; as they say "Money talks, bull s**t walks." The UofL AD, Tom Jurich, is quoted as equating Louisville to a "$74 million corporation", with facilities and sports teams that are second to none.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by bobber Well I'll be........says so right here. It just gets curiouser and curiouser. http://www.zagsblog.com/2011/09/19/r...pplied-to-acc/

VU simply doesn't have ACC creds...and they know it.

[UACFlyer]

School's have to put their self-interest first. But there's a way to go about it.

Consider Oklahoma: The OU president has said that he is committed to doing what he can to sustain the Big 12...he wants the Big 12 to survive with OU in it...but, he added, we are exploring all options, especially in light of the Big 12's instabilty, which is very important to OU. Thus, with that said, if OU leaves for the PAC 12 no one will be surprised or angry with OU or its president. Disappointed that OU left? Sure. But OU's approach is up front and above board.

Contrast that to Pitt and Syracuse, especially Pitt. Neither school gave even the slightest indication that it was intending to bolt the Big East....while for months they have been in the process of negotiating with the ACC. Pitt and SU carried out an obviously joint plan in complete, intentional secrecy....while leading the BE office and its member schools to believe that both schools were committed to the BE and were working to stabilize and strengthen it.

Even the BE office was not notified of the plan until it was made public. BE AD's and league officials were stunned...they said so,...and they're angry because of the way Pitt and SU had been deceiving the conference.

That is exactly what BC did when it joined the ACC years ago...and is why the BE was so furious with BC. A lawsuit was filed against the ACC and BC at the time.

Indeed, the ACC deserves some heat here as well. The SEC, in contrast, has been entirely open in its dealings with A&M. And when to BE lost BC, UM and VT years ago the Bif East commissioner immediately picked up the phone and called the commissioner of C-USA explaining that the BE had to add teams, had begun evaluation of C-USA coandidates,..and that the BE would keep C-USA informed every step of the way.

Hello? Does anyone fail to see a difference in approach between the ACC and other conferences?.....Between the behavior of A&M and OU in contrast to the behavior of BC years ago and SU and UP now?

There is an ethical way to go about this process. Deliberately clandestine negotiations in which exiting a conference for another are carried out at the same time a school is actively expressing loyalty to its current conference and participating in all meetings and planning of the conference it is leaving are clearly unethical...if not downwright dishonest. That's why BE ADs are so upset and are speaking out.

Swarbrick mentioned that of all the permutations and combinations that have been discussed, the Pitt-SU move was not one he ever considered. The guy is saying that these two schools planned the move in complete secrecy, never giving an inkling to its conference colleagues what they were planning to do.

[Chris R]

I can apply for a Rhodes Scholarship too, but doesn't mean Im going to get it. (re: Nova and ACC).

Nova would have to spend $300M to create an ACC caliber football program from scratch. Stadium, training facilities, coaches, scholarships, travel, film rooms and equipment, buses, equipment, on and on. They just voted down FBS football last year. I dont see it happening, and dont see the ACC giving Nova a special non-football status. Otherwise, the Irish would be in the ACC in a heartbeat and keep football independent.

[ud99]

So when and if UD does get contacted by a so called Big East basketball only conference, do they make the move? I would hope so but you never know. I don't want UD staying behind to only be left in a half rate league. This worries me about where will UD end up.

Also I don't think the SEC will take UofL, WVU or Cincy. From what I have been reading it will go after FSU, Missouri, and Clemson.

[Chris R]

This article says no talk from BE teleconference about an all Catholic Conference. Just preserving the Big East.

http://ht.ly/6yCuL

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by ud99 So when and if UD does get contacted by a so called Big East basketball only conference, do they make the move?

Yes, but brew has been saying that the Big East basketball schools won't ask anyone to join them.

[Medford]

Well keep this in mind, aside from money, its also about keeping 1 step ahead of the joneses.

What we read, either in the paper or as rumor on the message boards across the county is maybe 1/10th of what is going on out there. Conversations, both formal and informal about conference affliation have likely been going on longer than I can remember. However, it appears a tidal wave is on the horizon. First the B12 moves to shakey ground w/ one original member bolting west and another original member bolting to the B10. Then less than a year later, a 3rd B12 school declaring its indepence and moving to the SEC. The B12 stood at 10 last year, because when it looked at the landscape, it saw nobody within its footprint that was of equal standing and gave them a new market to capture. Conferences don't shink due to health, there was obvious poison in the B12 waters. aTm further exposed those poisons, it was pretty obvious that league couldn't hold together. If there anything worthy of adding to the mix last summer, why would there be anything worthy now?

Now that it was apparent the SEC was moving to 14 teams, and someone was going to find a home for a storied program like OU, amongst the other B12 schools, its only envitable that the 3 conferences with the most power (B10, SEC, P12) weren't going to sit idle and let the others capture the choice portions. Similarly, the ACC can't afford to sit idle and fall further behind these 3 in terms of conference prestigous and power. There are only so many B12 teams to go around, and most of them don't make sense in any of these 3 conferences. So where should they turn but the next most unstable conference, the hodgepodge called the Big East. Half basketball, half football, spread from the coast to the Texas heat, and few loyalities to be found or similar aspirations.

So if you're Pitt's AD (and apparently Syracue's AD) and you know thru years and years of "conversation" that neither a B10 nor SEC bid is coming your way anytime soon, do you talk openly about finding a new home, or do you work behind the scenes to gain admittance into the most stable long term conference that you can. I doubt this comes as a huge surprise to many AD's, at least privately. It was almost too predictable that both Pitt and Syracuse would move to the ACC under the current direction college athletics are moving in.

So why not UConn, they would seem like a natural choice to the ACC? I figure its one of two things, either UConn is holding out hope (and has good indication that hopes are good) of joining the B10, or the ACC is holding back hoping to pick up Notre Dame before going to 15 & 16 members. The ACC also has to deal with rumors of Florida State packing up bags and heading to the SEC.

Pitt & Syracuse's AD could have held back, waited to see what unfolds before them before moving ship and been more gentlemanly about it, or take the first solid offer they had, the place they were most likely to land at the end of the day rather than sitting around and watching that offer errode away. All greed aside, its pretty obvious which course they had to take. You're not going to risk both your school and your individual career in order to be diplomatic. They were left with no choice but to grab a hold of the most future stability they could get their hands on. Don't kid yourselves, while Notre Dame's AD has a point in a perfect world, at the end of the day, he's would do the exact same thing. As the AD at Notre Dame, he has many more options available to him. The AD's at Pitt & 'Cuse may well know their only options are the ACC or off the BCS map. Doesn't seem like much of a choice.

[DallasFlyer]

Originally Posted by ud99 So when and if UD does get contacted by a so called Big East basketball only conference, do they make the move? I would hope so but you never know. I don't want UD staying behind to only be left in a half rate league. This worries me about where will UD end up. Also I don't think the SEC will take UofL, WVU or Cincy. From what I have been reading it will go after FSU, Missouri, and Clemson.

I could see the SEC taking WVU, but I don't think there is a chance in heck they would take U of L or Cincy.

[Medford]

Originally Posted by Chris R This article says no talk from BE teleconference about an all Catholic Conference. Just preserving the Big East. http://ht.ly/6yCuL

I doubt the "Catholic Conference" at least officially titled that way was ever realistic. Sure a large majority of the schools may well be catholic, if not all of them, but once you make that an official requirement, you nip the possibility of including a school like UMass, Temple, Richmond, etc... and their athletic programs which may or may not be an improvement over whatever collection of programs you have.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[Sea Bass]

there are things that must happen before the next reorg happens
1) the Big 4 consolidation finishes
2) the little 2 (BE and Big12) figures out how to save at least a BCS bid in the short term. Long term they are dead. The may cause some realignment to get 2 viable 8 team football leagues to keep some BCS money in their pocket. However, it is simply delaying the inevitable
3) when the little 2 lose their BCS affiliation then another reorganization will take place and no one has any clue what that is going to look like.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Medford Well keep this in mind, aside from money, its also about keeping 1 step ahead of the joneses. What we read, either in the paper or as rumor on the message boards across the county is maybe 1/10th of what is going on out there. Conversations, both formal and informal about conference affliation have likely been going on longer than I can remember. However, it appears a tidal wave is on the horizon. First the B12 moves to shakey ground w/ one original member bolting west and another original member bolting to the B10. Then less than a year later, a 3rd B12 school declaring its indepence and moving to the SEC. The B12 stood at 10 last year, because when it looked at the landscape, it saw nobody within its footprint that was of equal standing and gave them a new market to capture. Conferences don't shink due to health, there was obvious poison in the B12 waters. aTm further exposed those poisons, it was pretty obvious that league couldn't hold together. If there anything worthy of adding to the mix last summer, why would there be anything worthy now? Now that it was apparent the SEC was moving to 14 teams, and someone was going to find a home for a storied program like OU, amongst the other B12 schools, its only envitable that the 3 conferences with the most power (B10, SEC, P12) weren't going to sit idle and let the others capture the choice portions. Similarly, the ACC can't afford to sit idle and fall further behind these 3 in terms of conference prestigous and power. There are only so many B12 teams to go around, and most of them don't make sense in any of these 3 conferences. So where should they turn but the next most unstable conference, the hodgepodge called the Big East. Half basketball, half football, spread from the coast to the Texas heat, and few loyalities to be found or similar aspirations. So if you're Pitt's AD (and apparently Syracue's AD) and you know thru years and years of "conversation" that neither a B10 nor SEC bid is coming your way anytime soon, do you talk openly about finding a new home, or do you work behind the scenes to gain admittance into the most stable long term conference that you can. I doubt this comes as a huge surprise to many AD's, at least privately. It was almost too predictable that both Pitt and Syracuse would move to the ACC under the current direction college athletics are moving in. So why not UConn, they would seem like a natural choice to the ACC? I figure its one of two things, either UConn is holding out hope (and has good indication that hopes are good) of joining the B10, or the ACC is holding back hoping to pick up Notre Dame before going to 15 & 16 members. The ACC also has to deal with rumors of Florida State packing up bags and heading to the SEC. Pitt & Syracuse's AD could have held back, waited to see what unfolds before them before moving ship and been more gentlemanly about it, or take the first solid offer they had, the place they were most likely to land at the end of the day rather than sitting around and watching that offer errode away. All greed aside, its pretty obvious which course they had to take. You're not going to risk both your school and your individual career in order to be diplomatic. They were left with no choice but to grab a hold of the most future stability they could get their hands on. Don't kid yourselves, while Notre Dame's AD has a point in a perfect world, at the end of the day, he's would do the exact same thing. As the AD at Notre Dame, he has many more options available to him. The AD's at Pitt & 'Cuse may well know their only options are the ACC or off the BCS map. Doesn't seem like much of a choice.

.....what UT. OU and the SEC do next. If the ACC "knew" that UT and OU were headed west or headed nowhere, then it would know what desirable schools are available and which ones are not; if the ACC "knew" that the SEC would try to get one or more of its schools, then there would be a sense of urgency to snap up what was available to back-fill; if the ACC knew what ND was going to do that info would be valuable because the ACC would surely want ND.

So, until the few really big schools decide what they're going to do the ACC will wait. There are more desirable options than UConn and Rutgers, e.g., UT and ND. But, depending on what others do the ACC may find itself clamoring to get UConn and Rutgers.

Many say this will play out quickly. Maybe not. If OU and OSU go to the PAC 12 that doesn't affect the ACC...if UT and TT join them it does because it takes UT out of the picture. Then there is the oh-so-quiet Big Ten. If the BT indicates it's moving East that would threaten ACC options like UConn and Rutgers.

Bottom line: Everyone is still waiting for the big fish to decide what to do, incl the SEC.

Of course, since surprises are possible, like Pitt and SU,....this stuff remains little more than fun to talk about. No one knows squat.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by longtimefan But does a basketball conference with 20-22 teams (assuming the Big East adds teams from the Big 12 and perhaps a couple others) really make any sense? (Of course, not much of this makes any sense.)

All of this has to make sense from a money perspective, none of this would be happening otherwise. The travel distances, discontinuation of longtime rivalries, etc. doesn't make sense though.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by Title_BU Like everything that has led to this point, everything beyond this point will be led by one thing - monetization. In order to secure the best media/promotional/distribution deals while minimizing cost, all conferences that result from this total shake-up the priorities are going to access to quality media markets, individual program prestige (which drives distribution deals), geographic positioning for travel costs (mostly specific to non-revenue sports). It's an easy connection to make, because it makes some sense. But, this isn't 1968 nonsecretatin vs catholic is going to be way down the list of priorities of these PROFIT MAXMIZERS. People are even taking for granted the Big East schools even stick together, that in of itself isn't even a guarantee. Dayton has a very good chance of be a part of this. It just won't have anything more than a passing interest it's charter's religious affiliation. Having some panache in the new league's revenue sport -basketball (and being geographically conducive) is just more relevant in today's climate Posted via Mobile Device

It would not be Catholic for Catholicism's sake, it would be a marketing tool and a set of like-minded institutions working in similar ways.

Originally Posted by Bat'71 Longtimefan, what you say has some truth to it...a lot of it may be self-serving on ND's part, but the essence of what Swarbrick said is true...this really is a pathetic display of outright GREED on the part of these "Institutions of Higher Learning" and it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the integrity of the individuals running these institutions or their conferences. No matter how this gets "spun", there is no way of putting it in a good light; as they say "Money talks, bull s**t walks." The UofL AD, Tom Jurich, is quoted as equating Louisville to a "$74 million corporation", with facilities and sports teams that are second to none.

Someone from ND is lamenting the greed of college football?? Says the guy with the gigantic NBC contract and barely-over-0.500 record every year, just enough to get invited to lose a bowl game? Wow.

[Bat'71]

Medford, you're basically right in your assessment, and in the real world, so to speak, the AD's did what they believed they had to do in the best interest of their institutions. I guess, what really fries me, is the hypocrisy on display of the various Administrations when they wrap themselves up in the mantel of "higher education" and doing what's best for the "student athlete", when we know that a good portion of the kids on their teams aren't getting an education and are being used solely for their athletic prowess and to put fannies in the stands (not to mention helping secure lucrative TV deals.) BCS football is big business, and at least Tom Jurich of Louisville was candid enough to point it out (although probably inadvertently.) At least the ACC mentioned academics in their choice of adding Pitt and Syracuse, but methinks that is more of a fig leaf than anything else. After all, the last I looked, Miami isn't exactly considered the "Harvard" of the South and they were welcomed with open arms not too long ago (plus their program, when it was still in the BE, had a list of infractions a mile long and I don't think much has changed in the interim.)

[UACFlyer]

...well, not quite.

But, according to the U.S. News annual rankings released just last week U of Miami is ranked #38 among national, doctoral, research universites. Of the 12 ACC schools (now 14) only five rank higher than Miami, and only slightly higher...and only one Big Ten school ranks higher than Miami.

When the ACC says academics are important..it walks the talk.

Miami's image is hurt by its football team. But the fact is, UM is an excellent university.

[UACFlyer]

...FB independence that is.

ND's contract with NBC brings in $15 million annually, far less than ND's share of TV revenue if it was in the Big Ten or ACC. If it was about more money ND would join a conference in a heart beat.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer ...FB independence that is. ND's contract with NBC brings in $15 million annually, far less than ND's share of TV revenue if it was in the Big Ten or ACC. If it was about more money ND would join a conference in a heart beat.

Do you know how much money the Big Ten and ACC bring in with their tv deals? Also, how much bowl money do the Big Ten and ACC bring in as compared to ND?

[UACFlyer]

...I recall reading that every Big Ten team pulls in more than ND's $15 million. I think the current Big Ten figure is about $20 million each. And, I recall reading that the recently signed PAC 12 deal is worth about $23-25 million for each school. There is no reason to suppose that the SEC's deal is very different from those two.

Figure $20-25 million for power conference schools. And, as I mentioned earlier, a recent Bus Wk article pointed out that ND's TV ratings have fallen so sharply that when it's time for ND to renegotiate it will get less than the current $15 million. There was even a suggestion that NBC may choose not to renew the ND deal, although that seems unlikely.

But look for a new ND TV deal to be worth about half of what ND would earn as member of a power conference. ND's independence is not about money. They really want to remain indepedent and will stick to their guns until it becomes impractical for reasons other than money.

[xubrew]

Originally Posted by longtimefan Yes, but brew has been saying that the Big East basketball schools won't ask anyone to join them.

I'm still guessing that they won't. At the very least, I wouldn't be counting on it or expecting it. They may decide not to break away at all.

[UACFlyer]

.....don't you think, brew? If ND sticks with the BE BB schools it's not too bad. But, absent ND, which seems inevitable eventually, the "new" Big East would be comrprised of five schools within spitting distance of the Atlantic Ocean and two pretty far away in the Mid-West.

I would think that everyone would be more comfortable, especially DePaul and Marquette, if there was better geographic balance.

Re the "Catholic" league....I think that the new Big East would feel so strongly against NOT being identified that way, that they might add one or two schools that are not Catholic just to avoid the religous designation. Perhaps GW or Richmond.

I for one would not like to see UD as being in the "Catholic Conference".

If a new Big East does not add teams as brew suggests may be the case, then the A10 is unaffected. If the BE does add teams the number would not be large, perhaps three. If UD were to be one of the three, fine. But if we are not and the three come from the A10 I don't see the A10 as being severely impacted. Loss of X would hurt, as X is the best team by far. But no other teams have comparable impact and the A10 would be just fine.

About the only meaningful issue that the Dayton Flyers have to deal with is developing a men's BB team that is consistent, or close to being consistent, with the image Dayton fans have of Flyer BB. A mid-pack A10 team is not consistent with that image...and that's what we are.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[xubrew]

I don't think geography is that big of an issue, but I'm basing this on my thinking that Notre Dame will remain with them.

If Notre Dame leaves, I don't have any real good guesses as to what will most likely happen. They remaining seven may go their own way, and if they do then I think they will add teams. Or, they may try and remain affiliated with the football schools.

Either way, I don't think it is something that Xavier and Dayton should be counting on. If either or both schools wanted to change their situation, I don't think the best way to go about it is to sit back, wait on them, and hope that they decide to extend invites. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I still don't think it's likely.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[flyers/avs]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer .....don't you think, brew? If ND sticks with the BE BB schools it's not too bad. But, absent ND, which seems inevitable eventually, the "new" Big East would be comrprised of five schools within spitting distance of the Atlantic Ocean and two pretty far away in the Mid-West. I would think that everyone would be more comfortable, especially DePaul and Marquette, if there was better geographic balance. Re the "Catholic" league....I think that the new Big East would feel so strongly against NOT being identified that way, that they might add one or two schools that are not Catholic just to avoid the religous designation. Perhaps GW or Richmond. I for one would not like to see UD as being in the "Catholic Conference". If a new Big East does not add teams as brew suggests may be the case, then the A10 is unaffected. If the BE does add teams the number would not be large, perhaps three. If UD were to be one of the three, fine. But if we are not and the three come from the A10 I don't see the A10 as being severely impacted. Loss of X would hurt, as X is the best team by far. But no other teams have comparable impact and the A10 would be just fine. About the only meaningful issue that the Dayton Flyers have to deal with is developing a men's BB team that is consistent, or close to being consistent, with the image Dayton fans have of Flyer BB. A mid-pack A10 team is not consistent with that image...and that's what we are.

The loss of X to an A10 that Dayton remained in wouldn't just hurt, it would be the equivalent of a nuclear bomb going off on Stewart Street. UD would be in a conference without its longtime natural rival playing a pack of irrelevant teams (minus Temple also) that collectively wouldn't garner a yawn from national college basketball fans. Such a league wouldn't even touch the Mountain West in terms of prestige. The A10 barely generates much of a blip as it stands - take out X and it's little more than the Horizon League (without Butler).

X and UD need to stay linked. Where one goes, the other needs to go.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[sheg]

While most of us would prefer the Big East, there's always the MVC. In fact, the current MVC plus Xavier, Dayton, SLU, and a fourth would be formidable.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Fan4allUDSports]

Here's a question I think many(including myself) have not taken into consideration, where do the other conferences lie in this? Could Butler leave the Horizon to go to a new BE? What about Memphis? I think that when all is said and done many other conferences will be in the discussion, not just the Power 4 and the Little 2. Think about this for a minute, with the formation of the Power 4, they are taking 66 football teams and making a conference for 64 teams. That leaves 2 teams out(unless some are pulled from other conferences or Notre Dame) and the remaining teams of the Big East.
Here is what I want to know, how does the affect the Mountain West, Big Sky, etc. Here is my reasoning, if for example the Big East and A-10 were to join somehow for Olympic Sports only, where does that put the teams that aren't in the conference that are left out(perhaps Fordham or LaSalle). Once they move to say the Horizon League, where does the domino end, and how far reaching is it on things such as the NCAA Tourney, espcially with fewer conferences meaning fewer automatic bids?

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.