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02-15-2013, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
We should be careful here. The idea that new stadiums boost the surrounding economy is a myth that has been debunked over and over. Can it be an economic boost? Absolutely, but that is the exception not the rule.
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Originally Posted by ud2
Also, the Cavs I think struggle with attendance in Cleveland. Seems like the only pro team in Ohio that doesn't struggle with attendance is the Browns and maybe the Cleveland Indians since the Indians seem to have had a resurgence since the early to mid 90's when they went to 2 World Series.
Edit: no, the Indians drew less than 20k per game last year, which put them in 2nd to last place in all of MLB. The Browns are the only team in Ohio that doesn't struggle with attendance. The NBA in Dayton seems like a bad idea to me.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
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I think the Cavaliers do okay with attendance. Not great since they lost that one really good player they had, but they're still in the second tier (of three tiers) in NBA attendance.
The Indians definitely struggle with attendance, particularly in years where they're not competing.
But yes, the point is that an NBA team would not make sense for Dayton. Maybe arena football, indoor lacrosse, or indoor soccer as some other possibilities besides minor league hockey or development league basketball.
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02-15-2013, 11:38 AM
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Very good points...
Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
A quick glance on google earth, it appears the fairgrounds site is slightly smaller than the entire paved area of the UD Arena complex. Hopefully if these rumors are even remotely true a large parking garage with multiple easy to navigate entry and exit points is a part of the plan. On site parking with easy access from multiple directions is a must. We do not need another poorly planned Nuthouse type facility in town.
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The Arena complex has parking for 4500 cars. The area is larger than the Fairgrounds.
As for parking garages.....UConn has two 1500 car parking garages close to its on-campus BB facility. It can take an hour to exit those garages because of the funnel effect. No matter how well they are planned, after a game, especially a close game, everyone leaves at once. Large crowds form in front of the elevators.
It is a very, very slow process.
The Arena complex has many highly desirable features.
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02-15-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
We should be careful here. The idea that new stadiums boost the surrounding economy is a myth that has been debunked over and over. Can it be an economic boost? Absolutely, but that is the exception not the rule.
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While I totally agree with that, seems to me the Dayton Dragons and what they have brought to the city of Dayton has done quite well
So I wouldn't poo-poo on what value (or lack thereof) this new "UD Arena" would bring just yet... subject to the primary focus (which wouldn't be UD Basketball, like Chris stated).
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02-15-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
The Arena complex has parking for 4500 cars. The area is larger than the Fairgrounds.
As for parking garages.....UConn has two 1500 car parking garages close to its on-campus BB facility. It can take an hour to exit those garages because of the funnel effect. No matter how well they are planned, after a game, especially a close game, everyone leaves at once. Large crowds form in front of the elevators.
It is a very, very slow process.
The Arena complex has many highly desirable features.
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Again, valid. I would take this another direction, though, UAC. I would definitely consider complexes like what UConn have but I would also be consulting with those at like, say, Ohio State and the Value City Arena. They do quite well with off-site parking (somewhat like what UD adopts to the "D" lot) but are much more effecient because they have a much larger fleet of buses that escort fans to and fro the lot to the Arena.
Just a thought?
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02-15-2013, 11:48 AM
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There probably can't be a worse location for parking than the YUM Center in downtown Louisville, which has a very small footprint and is hard by the Ohio river. UD could use some of the land acquired from NCR for a few parking garages (under ground/above ground) and provide shuttle buses from the existing lots by the current Arena for fans to utilize. It's all doable.
On another note, I came across this short piece from mid-2011 where Jim Calhoun prognosticated that the BE FB/non-FB members would split in the future, with basically the C7 opting to invite "X" and UD to join their ranks.
http://eye-on-college-basketball.blo...83066/29531857
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02-15-2013, 11:55 AM
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Leaving the a game at the proposed new location would not be that bad. Half that fans are gone by the 4:00 minute TV timeout.
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02-15-2013, 01:17 PM
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a parking garage would allow you to double, triple, etc... parking space w/o increasing your footprint. Welcome stadium has no multi-story parking garages.
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02-15-2013, 01:24 PM
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I realize many of us are spoiled with easy parking now
Originally Posted by Bat'71
UD could use some of the land acquired from NCR for a few parking garages (under ground/above ground) and provide shuttle buses from the existing lots by the current Arena for fans to utilize. It's all doable.
http://eye-on-college-basketball.blo...83066/29531857
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But I will say no way in heck I am waiting in the wind, rain, snow and cold for any bus to and from any game or event at the new arena. My time is too valuable to spend waiting in line. If this is the only option to see the game, I am going to my local sports bar, spend half as much on food and beverage, and watch the games on the big screen.
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02-15-2013, 04:22 PM
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Ive never parked in a parking garage that had quick egress. Its like trying to exit Alcatraz. Theres never an easy way out. Even through the front gate.
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02-15-2013, 05:18 PM
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Virtually any stadium or arena that hosts sporting or other events pose their own unique problems when it's time to leave, except of course for the ones that are served by mass transit systems in major cities. A way to alleviate mass congestion is through traffic flow schemes managed by local police and having multiple parking sites that can empty out onto different byways. With adequate planning, parking shouldn't be too much of an issue and if some folks would like to stop for a beverage or a bite to eat after the game, the proximity of the Fairgrounds to Brown Street should enable fans to linger awhile after a game and that in itself would relieve some mass congestion as departures would be somewhat staggered. If more pubs and restaurants pop up around the Arena that could offer fans alternatives from just hopping in their vehicles and heading home all at once. As it stands now, the UD Arena is isolated and folks have to hop in their cars to go anywhere, if there are some attractive alternatives nearby, some fans may wish to take advantage of that and linger awhile.
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02-15-2013, 07:22 PM
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Eminent Domain gives the gov't the power to basically run every local business out of the area under the guise of improving it. Should a new arena be build anywhere in the Fairgrounds area, expect BHA and everyone else to get a fair settlement to move. This Arena would be HUGE...and nobody will stand in it's way.
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02-15-2013, 07:25 PM
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The NBA will never look at Dayton except for a potential NBADL team. NBA tickets are a function of businesses, not season ticket holders. Dayton business is pretty much non-existent...certainly not enough to fill an arena 41X a season.
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02-15-2013, 07:26 PM
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The NBA will never look at Dayton except for a potential NBADL team. NBA tickets are a function of businesses, not season ticket holders. Dayton business is pretty much non-existent...certainly not enough to fill an arena 41X a season.
BTW....65 and sunny here in Fla! How's the snow??
Beer??? Sure, honey, I'll take 2!
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02-15-2013, 08:55 PM
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02-15-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R
Ive never parked in a parking garage that had quick egress. Its like trying to exit Alcatraz. Theres never an easy way out. Even through the front gate.
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I was in a crazy underground parking garage in the Georgetown area of Washington DC recently. It had 2 narrow lanes that wound down in a spiral 3 levels below ground. The width of the lanes and poorly placed support pillars did not allow cars to go around the bends both ways, so chaos ensued for traffic going up and down trying to get past one another. I can't believe that it was allowed by local fire codes. If there had been a car fire down there, 200 people could have died trying to get out.
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02-15-2013, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fudd
200 people could have died trying to get out.
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Without knowing which 200, can we really judge.
I'll be here all week folks.
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02-15-2013, 10:38 PM
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Really?
"BIG EAST 7 Meet And Make Big Announcement!"
has morphed into a discussion of . . . parking garages?
Chris will be here all w , folks.
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02-15-2013, 11:59 PM
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And back to the show... a 14 team league???
According to this guy at ESPN, sources have informed ESPN the "new league" is expected to have 12-14 members. I don't recall hearing 14 before, only 10-12... but I like the sound of this.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...er-sources-say
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02-16-2013, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05
I think the Cavaliers do okay with attendance. Not great since they lost that one really good player they had, but they're still in the second tier (of three tiers) in NBA attendance.
The Indians definitely struggle with attendance, particularly in years where they're not competing.
But yes, the point is that an NBA team would not make sense for Dayton. Maybe arena football, indoor lacrosse, or indoor soccer as some other possibilities besides minor league hockey or development league basketball.
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Reds were #16 out of 30.
Indians were #29 out of 30.
Cavs were #21 out of 30.
Browns were #18 out of 32.
Bengals were #24 out of 32.
Blue Jackets were #28 out of 30.
The attendance numbers for those teams were not as bad as I thought, the Bengals and Browns are pretty much filling their stadiums. The Reds and Cavs are doing alright. There really isn't any competition for the Cavs from college basketball in Cleveland, Cleveland State doesn't draw well.
I don't know, maybe Dayton could support a NBA team, I have no idea. I don't want the NBA in Dayton though, I just think that would really harm UD's attendance.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance
http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance
Last edited by ud2; 02-20-2013 at 12:38 AM..
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02-16-2013, 09:59 AM
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Perfectlly understandable, Glen,...
When these Big East/C7 guys meet they have to "meet" somewhere, right? How do they get there? They drive, of course. When they arrive they have to "park" their cars.
That's it....it's all about parking.
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02-16-2013, 03:04 PM
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Bad guess,...
Originally Posted by UACFlyer
My guess is 18-24 months after the site is prepared, which could take 6-12 months.
Cost? Could be $60-$80 million, minimum, in my opinion. Could be much more depending on what's wanted.
Just guesses.
Other than as a means to join with the C7, why in the world would UD want to make such an investment, given the very good facility we now have?
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SLU's new 10,600 seat arena (Chaifez?) cost $80+ million....said to be ~$87 million in 2013 dollara. Probably a fair comparison with what we have been discussing...and suggesting that an otherwise similar 18,000 seat facility would be in the $125-$150 million ball park.
Wow! I'd like to see the business case for spending that kind of money, no matter where it came from.
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02-16-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DaytonDecibelDungeon
According to this guy at ESPN, sources have informed ESPN the "new league" is expected to have 12-14 members. I don't recall hearing 14 before, only 10-12... but I like the sound of this.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...er-sources-say
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this is interesting...and mcmurphy has been all over the conference realignment stuff for the past year.
i think this bodes well for us. sounds like 10 teams might be out of the equation entirely
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02-16-2013, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
SLU's new 10,600 seat arena (Chaifez?) cost $80+ million....said to be ~$87 million in 2013 dollara. Probably a fair comparison with what we have been discussing...and suggesting that an otherwise similar 18,000 seat facility would be in the $125-$150 million ball park.
Wow! I'd like to see the business case for spending that kind of money, no matter where it came from.
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I thought SLU built a lot of other stuff into that, but ball park wise the $125 has to be close.
The Miami Valley group is going to foot half the bill, and I'll bet there's a lot of private money too. The goal is basically to improve/develop from UD to Miami Valley, and to get a bit of a buffer on the other side of Miami Valley.
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02-16-2013, 06:00 PM
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If the ESPN piece is somewhat factual, it would really destroy the A10 as a conference. Morevover, did anyone else pick up on the fact that it would have a public school (VCU) and that it would also have two schools in the same city ( Richmond, VA).
And at least it may do away with the Gonzaga silliness. There are so many clueless people around the country who can't seem to fathom why Gonzaga belonging poses any sort of problem for the conference.
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02-16-2013, 06:16 PM
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What about the County?
Originally Posted by UDDoug
I thought SLU built a lot of other stuff into that, but ball park wise the $125 has to be close.
The Miami Valley group is going to foot half the bill, and I'll bet there's a lot of private money too. The goal is basically to improve/develop from UD to Miami Valley, and to get a bit of a buffer on the other side of Miami Valley.
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All this talk about the fairgrounds site makes it sound as if all that is needed is to nicely ask Montgomery County for its fairgrounds. Is that the case?
What, if anything, is the fairgrounds used for? If the answer is close to nothing,....maybe all you have to do is ask. If the money comes from the State, County, City, MVH and UD, then the facility has to be multi-purpose.
"Multi-purpose" facilities are always a compromise...not close to optimum for any purpose. And parking is still an issue compared to the Arena. Perhaps UD would be willing to forego additional development north of the GE center, using the space for parking instead. Hopefully, it would be surface parking. It's hard to make a parking garage look nice...and that space is our campus.
I don't care for the idea except as a means to get into the C7 conference...if that's what it takes.
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02-16-2013, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
And parking is still an issue compared to the Arena. Perhaps UD would be willing to forego additional development north of the GE center, using the space for parking instead. Hopefully, it would be surface parking. It's hard to make a parking garage look nice...and that space is our campus.
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If you need more parking you'd go north of the fairgrounds.
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02-16-2013, 10:07 PM
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Can't buy VCU.....
Originally Posted by bobber
If the ESPN piece is somewhat factual, it would really destroy the A10 as a conference. Morevover, did anyone else pick up on the fact that it would have a public school (VCU) and that it would also have two schools in the same city (Richmond, VA).
And at least it may do away with the Gonzaga silliness. There are so many clueless people around the country who can't seem to fathom why Gonzaga belonging poses any sort of problem for the conference.
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If any group of schools understands the issues of institutional conflict, it's got to be the C7. Can't believe they would be comfortable with a large public school in a league comprised of small-to-medium private schools. In fact, it's VCU that would feel uncomfortable.
Then there is the FB issue. VCU appears to be on a path similar to Charlotte...with big time FB in its future. Does the C7 group want to deal with that?...again?
Dayton has just got to be with that group.....the size of the conference is likely to be the deciding factor, as we all know,...or think we know.
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02-17-2013, 12:01 AM
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02-17-2013, 12:44 AM
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It is nice to see someone say UD is a lock.
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02-17-2013, 01:20 AM
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It is also the first time I have heard mention on a Commish favorite by name. And he isn't one of the ones bandied about weeks ago.
Let's hope Feinstein knows whereof he speaks.
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02-17-2013, 07:49 AM
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Big Deal for UD
If this plays out as reported in the WP it will be a very big deal for UD having impact over a very long time: 1) ~$2.5-$3 million mer money annually; 3) Unprecedented incentive and pressure to finally "make it happen" in men's BB...we cannot be the Fordham of a new league; 3) even better m/w soccer and volleyball; 4) upgrade to "strategic" status in one or two other olympic sports.
If we're in it will hit UD like a thunderbolt. No one knows that better than Dan Curran...he's got to be working this issue full time. In my opinion, this one is a bit over TW's head and pay grade.
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02-17-2013, 08:21 AM
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Wabler's "pay grade"
UAC, I respect your opinion and insight! I also have a deep amount of respect for President Curren and all of what he did to continue to great work started by Brother Ray during his 20+ tenure. Ray began the campus upgrade on ALL levels including the push for the greater endowment, building, etc., etc.
But, I hardly thinking taking these kinds of "shot" at Tim Wabler is necessary or reasonable? If you think that we can thank President Curren (over and above everyone else) for what may happen with the C7---than I think your discounting the work of many, many folks over the course of the past 25+ years-----including that of Tim Wabler, etc.
For all the good things done by our president, there are many, many things that are of concern to folks across campus-----again, he has done alot of very, very good things with the help and vision of the board of trustee's, athletic department, etc.------but he ain't leading the way on this charge or many others that have occurred on his "watch". I have read your commnet sbaout President Curren for a while and appreciate your opinion.
Prime example is the NCR deal(s) etc. Timing was simply right----and UD had spoken of this type of a property "deal" for years with the stewart acreage, etc. but NCR's move to atlanta simply provided a willing partner-----the board of trustee's provided the capital, muscle and many of the connections----with president curren "out front" where he loves to be!!!
Again, a large "fan" of president curren-----but several other important area's on campus are honestly being left unattended or really struggling---and he has failed to lead as he should according to many folks on campus and associated with UD---to suggest that we should thank him--and him alone if this happens is simply not reality though "he" might think that it is.....
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02-17-2013, 09:27 AM
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Perhaps not as clear as I should have been....
Originally Posted by College B-Ball Fan
UAC, I respect your opinion and insight! I also have a deep amount of respect for President Curren and all of what he did to continue to great work started by Brother Ray during his 20+ tenure. Ray began the campus upgrade on ALL levels including the push for the greater endowment, building, etc., etc.
But, I hardly thinking taking these kinds of "shot" at Tim Wabler is necessary or reasonable? If you think that we can thank President Curren (over and above everyone else) for what may happen with the C7---than I think your discounting the work of many, many folks over the course of the past 25+ years-----including that of Tim Wabler, etc.
For all the good things done by our president, there are many, many things that are of concern to folks across campus-----again, he has done alot of very, very good things with the help and vision of the board of trustee's, athletic department, etc.------but he ain't leading the way on this charge or many others that have occurred on his "watch". I have read your commnet sbaout President Curren for a while and appreciate your opinion.
Prime example is the NCR deal(s) etc. Timing was simply right----and UD had spoken of this type of a property "deal" for years with the stewart acreage, etc. but NCR's move to atlanta simply provided a willing partner-----the board of trustee's provided the capital, muscle and many of the connections----with president curren "out front" where he loves to be!!!
Again, a large "fan" of president curren-----but several other important area's on campus are honestly being left unattended or really struggling---and he has failed to lead as he should according to many folks on campus and associated with UD---to suggest that we should thank him--and him alone if this happens is simply not reality though "he" might think that it is.....
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UD has been fortunate to have had solid, stable leadership over the years. In particular, UD alums and others, incl Dan Curran, appreciate the leadership of Ray Fitz...and a nicer man would be hard to find. As for athletics in particular, prior to Ted Kissell's arrival, a Fitz hire, there was no Div 1 athletics program. What we see today is the creation of Ted Kissell.
However, I do not believe that Curran's tenure is just a continuation of Fitz' solid leadership. In my opinion, Dan Curran's arrival resulted in a quantum step in UD's strategic direction. His leadership has been truly transformative.
I do not believe for a second that the NCR deals occurred simply because the "timing was right". UD's aggressive, opportunistic moves...twice,...going after NCR property were a risky financial stretch...and there is no certainty they would have occurred absent Curran's initiative and leadership.
Likewise, bringing a global powerhouse like GE to the UD campus was not just "one of those things" that just about anyone would/could have done. When up and running, the impact of the GE move will have a major impact on UDRI, on UD's school of engineering and on the university's reputation.
Under Curran UD has become a force for economic change and revitalization in Dayton. I do not believe that would have happened without him.
As regards UD's role in the C7 athletics issue, it is my opinion,....opinion,...that UD athletics will be permanently changed, for better or worse, by the outcome. That's why I feel that the C7 issue is a job for the president, Dan Curran, not our AD, Tim Wabler. My wording was sloppy and sounds like a shot at Tim....I was not thoughtful enough in choosing words to express my intent....it's the importance of the matter that requires the president's leadership, not inability on the part of our AD, in my opinion.
Now, to things that you mentioned. You sound like an informed, knowledgeable UD insider. Since, you raised the issue. how about a few specific examples of the "many, many things that are of concern to the people on campus". I presume the "people" are the faculty, primarily.
Whatever, whomever,...I am very interested in hearing more re areas for which Curran is falling a bit short.
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02-17-2013, 09:39 AM
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I would be shocked if both Richmond and VCU became part of the new league. After all, isn't the "same city" issue the only reason why St. Joe's is not in the discussion? St. Joe's is a better fit than both Richmond and VCU, so I can't comprehend leaving them in the dust while including two Richmond, VA schools.
Hell, if you are going to go to 14, why not make it 16 or even 18 to truly create a "basketball-only" powerhouse? The presidents and schools may not like this trend, but as far as FOX is concerned...the more the merrier.
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02-17-2013, 09:55 AM
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After the article, there were a couple of comments that were critical of Feinstein. The comments said that Feinstein has no sources and is just guessing. I hope Feinstein is correct.
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02-17-2013, 10:15 AM
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Balance and size of the pie...
Originally Posted by hawkoooo
I would be shocked if both Richmond and VCU became part of the new league. After all, isn't the "same city" issue the only reason why St. Joe's is not in the discussion? St. Joe's is a better fit than both Richmond and VCU, so I can't comprehend leaving them in the dust while including two Richmond, VA schools.
Hell, if you are going to go to 14, why not make it 16 or even 18 to truly create a "basketball-only" powerhouse? The presidents and schools may not like this trend, but as far as FOX is concerned...the more the merrier.
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Most of the speculation re candidates centers on their BB programs alone. There's more to it than that. One such thing is geographic balance. The C7 group is way out of balance,...five east coast schools and two in the midwest.
So, the first thing the C7 needs is three mid west schools...that gives them 5 and 5 for two divisions and provides the needed balance. Every school added above those three new mid west schools has to have enough impact on TV revenue so as not to dilute the take of the group of ten. And, most likely the C7 would added schools in pairs, i.e., one in the east and one in the midwest.
By that I mean, I don't think they would go from 10 to 11....they would go from 10 to 12. But, the two added above the three needed to provide balance have to retain the balance, meaning that in going from 10 to 12, one school has to be in the east and one in the mid west.
So, for UD, the issues are: Are we one of the first three mid-west schools added? Not sure...could be X, BU and SLU.....most likely would be. Going to 12means only one more mid-west school....are we that fourth mid west school. I hope so...but I don't think it's a slam dunk. If the C7 really do think Creighton is too far away; that's good for us. Even St. Louis is pretty far from the east coast. But, as part of a five or six team mid west division, SLU is OK.
We are going to have to sweat this one out.
( In what seems like a like a long time ago, one very prominent Prider was of the opinion that the A10 holds all the cards. Doesn't seem that way now, with the C7 conference expecting as much as $3 million per school from TV...almost 10x the A10 take.. From the beginning I felt that the A10 should try to split the C7 by going aggressively after MU and DU. Too late.)
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02-17-2013, 10:31 AM
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I believe we are a lock. twelve teams, two divisions. West: UD, X, Butler, SLU, Marquette, DePaul. East: remaining C7 plus team to be named.
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02-17-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2
After the article, there were a couple of comments that were critical of Feinstein. The comments said that Feinstein has no sources and is just guessing. I hope Feinstein is correct.
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i'm not sure why that is...thats not to say it isnt true. but feinstein is a pretty well respected author/writer. i don't think he'd have to resort to the whole "throw crap at a wall hope it sticks" type journalism.
i don't think he would write anything, just to write something for page hits. gotta believe hes heard something to be commenting on it. imo.
granted, i don't sit around and follow feinstein's work...so maybe i'm off base. i just know hes got some pretty good books under his belt and seems to be highly regarded in the sports world.
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02-17-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
i'm not sure why that is...thats not to say it isnt true. but feinstein is a pretty well respected author/writer. i don't think he'd have to resort to the whole "throw crap at a wall hope it sticks" type journalism.
i don't think he would write anything, just to write something for page hits. gotta believe hes heard something to be commenting on it. imo.
granted, i don't sit around and follow feinstein's work...so maybe i'm off base. i just know hes got some pretty good books under his belt and seems to be highly regarded in the sports world.
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Yes, I don't know what to make of the comments. A few more critical comments have been added, a couple of the commenters personally don't like Feinstein.
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02-17-2013, 02:03 PM
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Feinstein's credibility aside, the following ideas make no sense to me, regardless of where they come from:
-Siena and/or Detroit being on the radar of the C7.
-Creighton being too far west to be considered.
-Two Richmond teams being invited.
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02-17-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ClevelandFlyer05
Feinstein's credibility aside, the following ideas make no sense to me, regardless of where they come from:
-Siena and/or Detroit being on the radar of the C7.
-Creighton being too far west to be considered.
-Two Richmond teams being invited.
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i agree with that as well...and i really don't think they're being considered.
siena might lose 25 games this year....granted its not about their record in a down year..to what they could bring...but how in the world do these BE7 leave the big east only to join a conference with siena, detroit?
makes no sense
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02-17-2013, 02:35 PM
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I've been waiting for weeks to see a decent piece of reporting on the Catholic 7 and Feinstein's finally provided it. I wouldn't bother with the critical comments any more than I do with the crap written under Doug Harris' articles.
I agree with ClevelandFlyer05's questions about the Siena, Detroit, and Creighton mentions. It underscores, however, how important a role geography plays as it relates to travel/schedule for the non-revenue teams. I always thought it would be a 12 team league, to allow for 2 clear divisions--play your division schools twice a year and some of the other division teams once/year. Living here in Richmond, I can see how U of R could be considered instead of Creighton (to make the 6th team in the East)--based solely from a geography perspective. IMO, there's no way they'll take VCU. It would be a great choice "du jour", but if Smart leaves and they start losing, all of a sudden you have a mediocre program and a school that has absolutely nothing in common with the other league members.
Regarding Curren, Wabler, and the state of UD, I was back in Dayton on business the week before last and had the opportunity to spend time on campus one evening and go to the Temple debacle. My thoughts in a nutshell:
* The team will be fine--maybe not this year, but Archie will win and everyone should get off his case. They really miss Price and Dillard tries too hard--and they really need to make free throws (as they did yesterday against X).
* I think anyone who wants to replace UD Arena is crazy. Unless the Miami River swallows it up, it should be treated as the landmark that it is. It's one of the only notable sporting venues built in the late "60's/early "70's, and it's awesome. BTW, for the first time since high school, I sat in the 400's (row G) and I could see the video monitor fine. I was also genuinely impressed with the view--better than my season tickets upstairs at JPJ at the University of Virginia. I also have season tickets at VCU, and while it's a fun environment, it's a multipurpose gym (my son plays AAU tournaments there--all but one side of seats push back and the floor holds 6 or 7 courts).
* UD campus looks better than ever--and the new GE center is HUGE. I also quickly toured the old NCR headquarters. Still work to do and feels very generic overall. BTW, Roesch library is getting a new brick skin which will greatly improve it's appearance.
* The Pine Club is awesome as ever. Flanagan's hasn't changed a bit except they now have Great Lakes beers on tap--nice. Milano's now serves Lay's instead of MikeSell's (wonder who ****ed off who)...and finally, Tim's, my home away from home, doesn't open until 10:00 or "whenever the hell they feel like it" (according to the Flanagan's bartender). He also told me they now have a stripper pole and "probably haven't mopped the floor since you (me) graduated".
* In short, all seems well back at my alma mater. All that matters right now is getting that invite. This is our last (IMO) chance to end up where I always hoped we would--aligned with most of the best Catholic basketball schools in the country.
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02-17-2013, 03:45 PM
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Feinstein's article,..
Originally Posted by ud2
After the article, there were a couple of comments that were critical of Feinstein. The comments said that Feinstein has no sources and is just guessing. I hope Feinstein is correct.
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While the Feinstein article sounds perfectly reasonable....the comments have grown to 18, every one highly critical. Doesn't the guy have any friends?
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02-17-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
While the Feinstein article sounds perfectly reasonable....the comments have grown to 18, every one highly critical. Doesn't the guy have any friends?
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As a guy who has more posts in the "comments' section of The DDN and yet didn't actually write a single freakin' one of 'em, I would take those comments with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Rushmore.
You just don't get any more credible than Feinstein.
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02-17-2013, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows
As a guy who has more posts in the "comments' section of The DDN and yet didn't actually write a single freakin' one of 'em, I would take those comments with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Rushmore.
You just don't get any more credible than Feinstein.
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You mean that isn't you, Swampy?
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02-17-2013, 11:39 PM
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02-17-2013, 11:57 PM
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Siena
Mentioning Siena adversely impacts the credibility of the Feinstein article, in my mind. A MAAC program to the C7+? What was he thinking?
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02-18-2013, 12:41 AM
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That whole article is just nonsense. It's frankly embarrassing.
The Georgetown board is pretty funny about this guy. The gist, I guess, is Feinstein is a book writer (specifically golf) and when he actually does venture into world of sportwriting again he's years away from having the sources.
They don't clearly say but they say Georgetown completely shuts him out.
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02-18-2013, 12:59 AM
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Dick Weiss on Butler in the A10, then on page 2......
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/co...1266306?pgno=1
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02-18-2013, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Title_BU
That whole article is just nonsense. It's frankly embarrassing.
The Georgetown board is pretty funny about this guy. The gist, I guess, is Feinstein is a book writer (specifically golf) and when he actually does venture into world of sportwriting again he's years away from having the sources.
They don't clearly say but they say Georgetown completely shuts him out.
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Is there anyone who has verifiable credible sources in this whole shiznit? I'm starting to think that the whole thing is going to end up being driven by television interests.
"We are going to give you __ million dollars per school for __ years if you include __ teams. Here are the teams that we suggest you include: __,__,__,__................."
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02-18-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Title_BU
That whole article is just nonsense. It's frankly embarrassing.
The Georgetown board is pretty funny about this guy. The gist, I guess, is Feinstein is a book writer (specifically golf) and when he actually does venture into world of sportwriting again he's years away from having the sources.
They don't clearly say but they say Georgetown completely shuts him out.
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If you've never read any of Feinstein's stuff, you're missing some wonderful books. Sure there are the golf books venturing w/ 4 relative unknowns from Q-school thru a season on tour, and theres the book about The Majors and perhaps another golf book or two, but he also wrote the book that followed Bobbie Knight around for a season at IU, he wrote a wonderful book about a season of college BBall in the ACC, Next Man Up was about a season w/ the Ravens, he had a book about a season in the Patriot Conference, and one dedicated to the Army-Navy football game.
As far as his sources, I'm sure he has them, he's pretty well connected; doesn't mean his sources are right are perhaps even leading him astray. He could be talking to someone that is very pro-catholic and is thusly pushing for an invite to Siena or Detroit over public schools.
As for that attacks on him, Fienstein is very liberal, which leaves him open for dislike in many places (perhaps even at the heads of catholic universities, don't know his stance on abortion, not sure that I care). He's also very "pro-the little guy". He's the voter who always puts 1 team from the patriot league in his preseason top 25 (at 25th) every season until that team losses which obviously raises question marks and the ire of some of the "big boys" at the start of each season who find themselves outside of the top 25 and wondering how Bucknell or Army got a vote.
As far as Siena, I have my doubts but in terms of reasoning, I could see where they would be in the conversation. There are several factors that would go into who they invited. Obviously success in men's basketball is huge, success in secondary sports helps, but somewhere on the fringe is the desire to maintain the Garden as its tournament site. The Garden only works long term if they have butts in the seats. In the current Big East, Syracuse brings a huge following, Louisville and Pitino bring a ton as well. Part of the consideration is how each team travels. Sienna travels well, they had a great tournout at the arena a few years back in the tournament, they'll travel to NYC. At any rate, Sienna could have been on the "option D" list, and I don't think I'd put it past Fienstein to push their name near the top along w/ the Option A lists of schools.
At any rate, I've got to imagine that a lot of "official" news will start breaking around final 4 time when college BBall is at its peak.
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02-18-2013, 08:51 AM
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The other odd thing about that piece is that it seems to imply that Butler may have to weigh its options if given the chance to leave the A-10.
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02-18-2013, 09:24 AM
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Despite the knee-jerk reaction that schools like Siena or Detroit wouldn't even be on the C7 radar at this point, it does make some sense that Siena, at least, would be considered in a Plan B or C if the Virginia schools were to spurn an offer and stay in the A-10. Think about it, if the new league wants another Eastern member school or two in it's ranks for balance in a new 12-to14-school league and St. Joe's is out because 'Nova can't abide another member in Philly, where would you look? There aren't a lot of other potential Eastern candidates. I guess George Mason or GW could fit the bill, but why would G'town want to include them...the Hoyas wouldn't even consider participating in the pre-season Tourney (BB&T) that is now hosted by GW and Maryland, so it's highly doubtful they'd like to have another metro DC school included in the new conference. I guess, Hofstra or Duquesne could be possible candidates for the "Eastern" half of a 12 or 14 school league, but who knows. IMO, Detroit would seem to be the outlier here, because there are too many potential mid-west candidates that would likely join the league ahead of them. In addition, while unlikely, ND may still decide to pull back from the ACC and join the new league for all sports but FB (it was mentioned as a possibility in earlier Posts.) Nothing is settled until it is settled and the ink dries, so speculation will continue.
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02-18-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Medford
...As far as Siena, I have my doubts but in terms of reasoning, I could see where they would be in the conversation. There are several factors that would go into who they invited. Obviously success in men's basketball is huge, success in secondary sports helps, but somewhere on the fringe is the desire to maintain the Garden as its tournament site. The Garden only works long term if they have butts in the seats. In the current Big East, Syracuse brings a huge following, Louisville and Pitino bring a ton as well. Part of the consideration is how each team travels. Sienna travels well, they had a great tournout at the arena a few years back in the tournament, they'll travel to NYC. At any rate, Sienna could have been on the "option D" list, and I don't think I'd put it past Fienstein to push their name near the top along w/ the Option A lists of schools...
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I am not discounting Sienna but I will say if they are on the radar then we are a lock.
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02-18-2013, 10:46 AM
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If attendance and traveling well count for anything...
Originally Posted by Bat'71
Despite the knee-jerk reaction that schools like Siena or Detroit wouldn't even be on the C7 radar at this point, it does make some sense that Siena, at least, would be considered in a Plan B or C if the Virginia schools were to spurn an offer and stay in the A-10. Think about it, if the new league wants another Eastern member school or two in it's ranks for balance in a new 12-to14-school league and St. Joe's is out because 'Nova can't abide another member in Philly, where would you look? There aren't a lot of other potential Eastern candidates. I guess George Mason or GW could fit the bill, but why would G'town want to include them...the Hoyas wouldn't even consider participating in the pre-season Tourney (BB&T) that is now hosted by GW and Maryland, so it's highly doubtful they'd like to have another metro DC school included in the new conference. I guess, Hofstra or Duquesne could be possible candidates for the "Eastern" half of a 12 or 14 school league, but who knows. IMO, Detroit would seem to be the outlier here, because there are too many potential mid-west candidates that would likely join the league ahead of them. In addition, while unlikely, ND may still decide to pull back from the ACC and join the new league for all sports but FB (it was mentioned as a possibility in earlier Posts.) Nothing is settled until it is settled and the ink dries, so speculation will continue.
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UD is golden. Excluding Creighton, only Marquette among the C7 and candidates exceeds UD's attendance....and does UD travel well. And, we have a large NY/NJ alum base.
Lay people don't really know how important these things are. But, for TV, one can count on UD Arena being packed and looking big-time all the way.......all the time, no matter the opponent.
We now average about 12,500, ~ 1000 short of capacity. In the proposed new league I'll bet nearly every conference game would be a sell-out.
Also, the HC job at UD is not a destination job....but, in the new league it just might be. I'll bet the HC jobs at VU, GU, MU are considered destination jobs.
As for Feinstein, at least Swampy has high regard for him. Assuming the guy doesn't have downright enemies, why wouldn't he have contacts at GU. No doubt there are quite a few people at GU in the president's office and the athletics department that have inside information. Not all those people are going to say "no comment". It's possible and natural to talk about things like this without inappropriately revealing highly sensitive information....in fact, just by answering "yes" and "no" to carefully posed questions GU people could provide much info to Feinstein.
Think about it. It's easy to think of several questions that could be answered simply by Y or N that would tell me just about all I want/need to know about the matter.
We're not talking about state secrets here.
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02-18-2013, 11:06 AM
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Put simply, Noone puts "butts in the seats" like UD. The Flyer Faithful.
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02-18-2013, 11:34 AM
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I've read in various places (message boards) that Saint John's has been a backer of UD thru this process and I've seen it questioned why. Saint John's knows that UD helps them get a conference game in the garden. With out Syracuse, Louisville & Uconn coming to town on a regular basis, they are in need of conference games that they know will help them make the Garden a feesible venue from a revenue standpoint.
It wasn't that long ago that UD played Fordham in the Garden as the 2nd game of a double header. The first game was Saint Johns vs Cincy. I'll take a hunch that the number of UD fans outdrew the number of UC fans, perhaps even the number of "pure" fordham fan (vs the casual fan that was there for the doubleheader or the Saint John's fan that hung around and rooted for the hometown team, just 'cause). You know Saint John's & MSG took note of the UD crowd for that game.
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02-18-2013, 12:16 PM
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I've had a little time to digest Feinstein's article. Like most of you, I get the impression that the author is not popular with many posters, but that may have as much to do with what he is reportig as it does with his overall accuaracy.
Many claim he isn't welcome at Georgetown. Possibly not, but that doesn't mean his sources can't come from elsewhere -- tv networks, for example. I read a piece on another board that said all of the schools involved were sworn to secrecy. Likely that is true. But there have to be several networks involved here that are privy to information about the makeup of the league. Can those organizations keep a lid on material that may have been seen by dozens of executives and their staff? I really doubt it. Somewhere a leak is going to happen. Especially with news hungry reporters snooping around.
I will say Feinstein dropped the "no Creighton" bombshell and hardly anyone blinked. Maybe they don't believe it, or maybe they just overlooked it. At any rate, what's being reported is consistent with what I have gathered: the new conference is supposed to be as compact geographically as possible. St Louis is as far as we'll go.
This also means no Gonzaga. Thank God, I was getting tired of the constant wail on other boards, "I want Gonzaga or I'll hold my breath until I turn blue and the RA has to come down to my room to resuscitate me." Good, call the RA. Gonzaga is no longer an option. But Richmond is, and it makes sense on a lot of levels: a stellar academic situation, good geographic fit, private but not Catholic, and a new tv market.
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02-18-2013, 01:21 PM
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I agree with Bobber--the Georgetown posters may simply not like what Feinstein's written--"Thou dost protest too much". From a Richmond perspective (where I live), Georgetown is a very interesting school. It has some things in common with UD (Catholic, FCS non-scholarship football), but differs in many other respects:
* I toured Georgetown with my H.S. Senior daughter last winter. It's a beautiful campus, oozes old money and tradition--and is in a wonderful part of a world class city. It's basketball program has a rich history and has been a key part of the Big East's success.
* On the downside, it's a college program in a pro town, and it plays its basketball games in a 20k seat hockey arena on the other side of the city.
* If you don't think these last points matter, check out StubHub. For Wednesday's game against DePaul, you can buy Upper Level seats for $0.24, Lowers for $6.00. For Saturday night's game against Rutgers, Uppers start at $3.00/Lowers at $22.00. Yes, the game later on with Syracuse will set you back, but these prices are pretty amazing--for the #15 team playing conference games in the heart of the season.
* Back to the content of the piece, Georgetown fans may want what they can no longer have: The big rivalries with UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Notre Dame, and Pitt are about to become a thing of the past--and replaced with the likes of Dayton and St. Louis. C'mon, admit it--you'd be ****ed, too. But that's where things stand, and that's what their fans will slowly have to accept--but right now all they can do is kill the messenger. Let them have their say, then give them the time to adjust to the new world order. Ultimately, they belong in a conference with private school brethren and schools where football doesn't play any role of importance. They are no longer welcome in the BCS world.
Final points:
* While I can't speak to Feinstein's contacts, he's still regularly asked to speak on NPR and TV news shows--so at least some find him still credible.
* He knows UD to some degree. I don't remember the specifics, but he had very nice things to say about Coach Donoher and UD at the beginning of his book, "The Last Amateurs" about the Patriot League. I've always found his articles in the Post (infrequent as they may be) to be well written and providing an interesting point of view.
* Regarding Richmond, they've had their share of drama lately. They are dropping Men's Soccer and Track and Field in order to introduce varsity Lacrosse and it created a major controversy. The decision was based largely on a large benefactor gift to start Lacrosse, and among other things, one of the University board members resigned in protest. They're also going to be renovating their arena--close to 9k capacity and on-campus, but dreary and poorly designed. The average crowd there is quiet and about 100 years old and student attendance is dismal.
These next few weeks are going to be very interesting--and I'm hoping for the best!
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02-18-2013, 01:32 PM
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Good, clear-headed thinking....
Originally Posted by bobber
I've had a little time to digest Feinstein's article. Like most of you, I get the impression that the author is not popular with many posters, but that may have as much to do with what he is reportig as it does with his overall accuaracy.
Many claim he isn't welcome at Georgetown. Possibly not, but that doesn't mean his sources can't come from elsewhere -- tv networks, for example. I read a piece on another board that said all of the schools involved were sworn to secrecy. Likely that is true. But there have to be several networks involved here that are privy to information about the makeup of the league. Can those organizations keep a lid on material that may have been seen by dozens of executives and their staff? I really doubt it. Somewhere a leak is going to happen. Especially with news hungry reporters snooping around.
I will say Feinstein dropped the "no Creighton" bombshell and hardly anyone blinked. Maybe they don't believe it, or maybe they just overlooked it. At any rate, what's being reported is consistent with what I have gathered: the new conference is supposed to be as compact geographically as possible. St Louis is as far as we'll go.
This also means no Gonzaga. Thank God, I was getting tired of the constant wail on other boards, "I want Gonzaga or I'll hold my breath until I turn blue and the RA has to come down to my room to resuscitate me." Good, call the RA. Gonzaga is no longer an option. But Richmond is, and it makes sense on a lot of levels: a stellar academic situation, good geographic fit, private but not Catholic, and a new tv market.
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Bobber, I agree completely that with a few networks competing to provide C7+ coverage,....and the seven schools themselves,....dozens of people know what is going on. Some of these people are lower-level support people and staff. It is somewhere between very difficult and impossible to maintain secrecy under such circumstances. Accurate information will leak out.,....with reporters doing their jobs by tapping all available sources.
That being the case, media speculation can be expected to gradually change with time, from being wild, often goofy speculation at the beginning, becoming more and more reasonable , while getting closer and closer to the truth as time passes.
Time is passing. In December, as I recall, the C7 announced their split...that was over two months ago. By now it's likely that all reasonable options have been vetted and the C7 know what they are going to do.
Seems likely that C7 intentions will be revealed soon after the BB season ends, if not before. Coaches and staff from just about all Div 1 schools gather at one site for the Final Four....lots of talking...hard to keep a lid on this much longer, in my opinion.
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02-18-2013, 02:02 PM
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I don’t believe this whole thing is close to being settled. If there is no commissioner, who is in charge? In the academic world it is hard enough to get an agreement even when there is someone in charge.
So X and Butler and UD are in. They are told as much and told to keep it to themselves. So SLU and VCU are not in but they don’t know it? If the did know they were not in, what would keep them from telling everyone? Or are they told they are in too? Except they are really not in. If that is the case how does X, Butler and UD know they are really in and not being told that they are in, when they aren’t? Is that why it is now a 28 team conference because everyone is being told they are in or under consideration?
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02-18-2013, 02:24 PM
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Not as bad as that `80...
Originally Posted by CE80
I don’t believe this whole thing is close to being settled. If there is no commissioner, who is in charge? In the academic world it is hard enough to get an agreement even when there is someone in charge.
So X and Butler and UD are in. They are told as much and told to keep it to themselves. So SLU and VCU are not in but they don’t know it? If the did know they were not in, what would keep them from telling everyone? Or are they told they are in too? Except they are really not in. If that is the case how does X, Butler and UD know they are really in and not being told that they are in, when they aren’t? Is that why it is now a 28 team conference because everyone is being told they are in or under consideration?
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It appears as if the GU president is acting as interim commissioner. And, an outside firm has been hired to assist with planning, TV negotiations, etc. The very fact that a commissioner has not yet been hired is evidence that the immediate need is not that great.
Six of the schools apparently feel very comfortable with the GU president in the lead....and he has plenty of outside help.
The schools you mentioned have been quiet. But, the Siena AD, mentioned prominently in the Feinstein article had plenty to say. His comments were quite specific as regards the issues Siena would have to face...making it seem as if, while flattered, he and Siena are not in the mix.
Perhaps the other schools you mentioned are, in fact still under consideration, or at least think they are.
Actually, there aren't that many schools that have been mentioned in a serious way, seven by my count...only two more than needed for the C7 to grow to the C12. Of the seven, Creighton has a geography issue and VCU has an institutional fit issue.
The C7 may very well surprise. But, a conference comprised of the seven plus, X, BU, SLU, UD and UR looks pretty good in a lot of ways, e.g., geographic balance; intritutional similarity; basketball focus; good facilities; good fan base; good markets, good academics...
Then again, we might be in for a shocking surprise (I hope not.)
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02-18-2013, 02:33 PM
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ce80, I don't believe that situation applies here. We're talking about an as yet unformed alliance of schools. The commish who is hired, whomever that may be, is mearly going to be the talking head for whomever is pushing the buttons for the C7 today.
There is probably a 0% chance that the C7 announced their intention to move without prior conversation with a handful of potential conference additions, without conversations with TV executives. Ultimately, they may get more TV money than they originally thought possible; they may end up with 12 teams when they were intially aiming for 10. Nobody leaves a comfortable situation unless they know they landing spot.
The commissioner is a formality, the commissioner is somebody to take the conference forward beyond its formation. I'd be shocked if the heavy lifting was anything less than nearly complete. My guess is that much of the heavy lifting has been in place for years, but was waiting for the Big East to fall apart. As short as a few seasons ago, the C7 was getting a nice enough TV package that going out on their own wasn't a real options. Had they accepted ESPN's offer (and assuming the payouts remained the same) I'm guessing they'd still find a way to make it work despite the departures of Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville & ND. But once they saw the new offers they were getting, they likely already knew they could make as much, possibly even more if they went their own route and joined up with a handful of schools they had talked to in the past.
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02-18-2013, 02:44 PM
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Nothing earth-shattering but still nice to see. A post on the Providence message board wants their students to do the Harlem Shake like "likely future Catholic 7 member Dayton" does.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=425&f=1323&t=11299284
In another thread, someone mentioned PC should get this going. Many out there, but love this one from likely future Catholic 7 member Dayton (and love their mascot, blows ours away...)
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02-18-2013, 02:56 PM
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But man does the Villanova board hate us or what? They prefer St. Louis, Creighton, VCU and - gasp - even Richmond over us. Not sure I understand their hate. Our program can stack up with any of those if you look at more than just the last three years. And we blow three of those four away in attendance and fan support, and absolutely obliterate Villanova in those departments too.
http://villanova.rivals.com/showmsg....2784001&Page=1
So it seems like, just by perusing some of their boards, that Providence and St. John's are our only C7 friends. Nova and Georgetown don't like us and Marquette seems to downright hate us and puts us on par with the MAC.
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02-18-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by flyers/avs
Marquette seems to downright hate us and puts us on par with the MAC.
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Marquette fans just can't stand the fact that they have lost five of their last six meetings with an "MAC" school, including the year they had Dwayne Wade and went to the Final Four.
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02-18-2013, 03:36 PM
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Re the VU board....
Originally Posted by flyers/avs
But man does the Villanova board hate us or what? They prefer St. Louis, Creighton, VCU and - gasp - even Richmond over us. Not sure I understand their hate. Our program can stack up with any of those if you look at more than just the last three years. And we blow three of those four away in attendance and fan support, and absolutely obliterate Villanova in those departments too.
http://villanova.rivals.com/showmsg....2784001&Page=1
So it seems like, just by perusing some of their boards, that Providence and St. John's are our only C7 friends. Nova and Georgetown don't like us and Marquette seems to downright hate us and puts us on par with the MAC.
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....just a bunch a know-nothings, e.g. like us.
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02-18-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by flyers/avs
But man does the Villanova board hate us or what? They prefer St. Louis, Creighton, VCU and - gasp - even Richmond over us. Not sure I understand their hate. Our program can stack up with any of those if you look at more than just the last three years. And we blow three of those four away in attendance and fan support, and absolutely obliterate Villanova in those departments too.
http://villanova.rivals.com/showmsg....2784001&Page=1
So it seems like, just by perusing some of their boards, that Providence and St. John's are our only C7 friends. Nova and Georgetown don't like us and Marquette seems to downright hate us and puts us on par with the MAC.
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DePaul and Seton Hall just stay quiet, hoping nobody wakes up and questions why they heck they are still included.
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02-18-2013, 03:51 PM
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I wouldn't worry too much about who fans want included, it matters much more what administrators want (I know, stating the obvious) I still see a lot of pandering for the inclusion of Gonzaga with out any thought given the travel implications forced on somebody to play a midweek game in the middle of nowhere Washington.
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02-18-2013, 04:23 PM
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C7 want a big time BB conference....
Originally Posted by Medford
I wouldn't worry too much about who fans want included, it matters much more what administrators want (I know, stating the obvious) I still see a lot of pandering for the inclusion of Gonzaga with out any thought given the travel implications forced on somebody to play a midweek game in the middle of nowhere Washington.
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The C7 has made that perfectly clear....big-time BB is to be the focus of the new conference. The 7 do not want to take a back seat to the BCS-type leagues.
Well, any examination of UD's basketball cannot help but conclude that it is, indeed, "big time",...except for on-court performance. But, of all the shortcomings that a candidate might have, on court performance is the simplest to correct, by far,...and in a hurry.
How easy is it to correct weak instritutional committment, institutional compatibility, or an inadequate facility, or poor attendance, or an out of the way location? D@mn hard!
On court performance can be fixed almost over night...one really great player can do it. (Having said that,....I don't quite know why we struggle so.) Nonetheless, of all the soft spots that potential candidates have...UD's is the easiet to correct in a timely manner if we ever get our act together. The other flaws I mentioned either are close to uncorrectable, or take a long time and a lot of money to deal with.
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02-18-2013, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford
I wouldn't worry too much about who fans want included, it matters much more what administrators want (I know, stating the obvious) I still see a lot of pandering for the inclusion of Gonzaga with out any thought given the travel implications forced on somebody to play a midweek game in the middle of nowhere Washington.
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I, too, see a lot of hand wringing because Feinstein didn't include Gonzaga. The people doing that are either casual fans who don't have a clue about how a conference runs, or they are students writing from their dorm rooms. "Oh, Wow. We gotta have Gonzaga. They're, like, way cool."
Fortunately, the university presidents wlll make the final decision, with input from the TV people, I am sure. And they think somewhat differently than the average nineteen year old who is hyped to go back home and brag about his new conference to all his friends.
I have seen a few serious attempts to compare competing schools (attendance for basketball, arena size, student body, even endowment, and NCAA appearances/wins) but a lot of things get left out or disparaged. Location, travel partners, olympic sports, classification of the school (e.g., National, Regional, Research, etc.) are all left out of the equation because they are deemed unimportant...that is, if the posters even gave them a thought in the first place.
But I think these things are important to the presidents. Even the Marquette AD, not a friend of UD if I read the tea leaves right, has said strong women's basketball, volleyball and soccer programs were a plus. I have never heard a peep about research, but I think several of the schools are involved in that and there might be an eye to a consortium at some future point. Once again, these items are never brought up. I wonder what the reaction would be if we said that GE is putting the finishing touches on a 51 million dollar research facility on UD's campus. Doubtless it would be dismissed by the ninteen year olds and the dilettantes, but I bet a university president might have more than a passing interest.
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02-18-2013, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by flyers/avs
So it seems like, just by perusing some of their boards, that Providence and St. John's are our only C7 friends. Nova and Georgetown don't like us and Marquette seems to downright hate us and puts us on par with the MAC.
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That would make it just that much better if we get in. Practically half of the entire league would hate us. Pile that on top of the X hatred of us and we have at least 4 classic grudge matches at UD Arena over the next few years. UD Arena eats that stuff up.
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02-18-2013, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bobber
I, too, see a lot of hand wringing because Feinstein didn't include Gonzaga. The people doing that are either casual fans who don't have a clue about how a conference runs, or they are students writing from their dorm rooms. "Oh, Wow. We gotta have Gonzaga. They're, like, way cool."
Fortunately, the university presidents wlll make the final decision, with input from the TV people, I am sure. And they think somewhat differently than the average nineteen year old who is hyped to go back home and brag about his new conference to all his friends.
I have seen a few serious attempts to compare competing schools (attendance for basketball, arena size, student body, even endowment, and NCAA appearances/wins) but a lot of things get left out or disparaged. Location, travel partners, olympic sports, classification of the school (e.g., National, Regional, Research, etc.) are all left out of the equation because they are deemed unimportant...that is, if the posters even gave them a thought in the first place.
But I think these things are important to the presidents. Even the Marquette AD, not a friend of UD if I read the tea leaves right, has said strong women's basketball, volleyball and soccer programs were a plus. I have never heard a peep about research, but I think several of the schools are involved in that and there might be an eye to a consortium at some future point. Once again, these items are never brought up. I wonder what the reaction would be if we said that GE is putting the finishing touches on a 51 million dollar research facility on UD's campus. Doubtless it would be dismissed by the ninteen year olds and the dilettantes, but I bet a university president might have more than a passing interest.
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The research can be huge. It may be the deciding factor with the Big Ten in adding new schools.
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02-18-2013, 05:20 PM
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Very Worried
but not anymore!
I was very worried that we would be on the outside, looking in, when all the dominos fell and the new conference was formed.
After a conversation I had with someone whom I believe knows what he is talking about, UD has been "in" almost from the begininng. On court performance may not be too strong, but we are near the top of the league in other sports, attendance, fan base and support throughout the geographic footprint of the league, etc. I was told, "no need to worry"
I was also told the new arena may be alot closer to reality than what we realize. A major part of the funding may already be in place. I am personally still not convinced this is needed.
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02-18-2013, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
but not anymore!
I was very worried that we would be on the outside, looking in, when all the dominos fell and the new conference was formed.
After a conversation I had with someone whom I believe knows what he is talking about, UD has been "in" almost from the begininng. On court performance may not be too strong, but we are near the top of the league in other sports, attendance, fan base and support throughout the geographic footprint of the league, etc. I was told, "no need to worry"
I was also told the new arena may be alot closer to reality than what we realize. A major part of the funding may already be in place. I am personally still not convinced this is needed.
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I am glad other people are hearing this as well. I knew something was up 2 weeks ago when I heard they were moving football back to campus. I know many of you can see the outside of the arena, but what the fans cannot see is not good. There are many issues with the arena and it would cost a large amount of money to fix, enough that they might as well build a new Arena instead of putting more money into the the arena.
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02-18-2013, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80
I don’t believe this whole thing is close to being settled. If there is no commissioner, who is in charge? In the academic world it is hard enough to get an agreement even when there is someone in charge.
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Pope Benedict XVI, and it's precisely why he's resigning. This story about his failing health is just a cover so he can focus his attention on what's really important: the successful formation of The Big Priest Conference.
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02-18-2013, 05:55 PM
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Wow!
Originally Posted by m21eagle45
I am glad other people are hearing this as well. I knew something was up 2 weeks ago when I heard they were moving football back to campus. I know many of you can see the outside of the arena, but what the fans cannot see is not good. There are many issues with the arena and it would cost a large amount of money to fix, enough that they might as well build a new Arena instead of putting more money into the the arena.
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Football back on campus.....the Arena that the NCAA has been selecting for years is no good....might as well spend $125-$150 million for a new facility than "waste" a few million on up-dating renovations to the one we have.
eagle...you may have a future in government.
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02-18-2013, 06:03 PM
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The Feinstein story may or may not be 100% true, but I have to say it is being picked up by almost every other news organization around. That tells me at least some of them must have done some due dilligence and are satisfied that the story holds water.
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02-18-2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
Football back on campus.....the Arena that the NCAA has been selecting for years is no good....might as well spend $125-$150 million for a new facility than "waste" a few million on up-dating renovations to the one we have.
eagle...you may have a future in government.
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It would take much more than a few million to fix up the Arena. You are right the NCAA can get by selecting us, but there are major issues that the average fans don't see. Currently we have to put people in the media into the football shower room because there isn't enough space for them. This is just where I would want to be as a visiting media person, siting where 100 football players shower everyday with only a curtain separating me from the bathroom that is still being used. They also turn the only little storage we have into makeshift media rooms and cover the cement walls with curtains and cement floors with carpet. The poor condition of our visiting locker rooms, which I know with my time as a liaison, was a concern for visiting teams. The building has its hot water go out ALL THE TIME. UD also struggles with its limited technology. There is always internet and phone issues during the tournament because the building is not equipped to provide the needed technology. Let us not forget the reason the benches get flipped to the other side of the floor and the TV switches sides of the arena because of the horrible angles from the cat walks.
Not to mention moving Football back to campus more than creates the headache the move was originally supposed to fix. Yet, this is something that is being done as we speak. They are just working out the logistics of it all. All the football storage and equipment is no longer on campus. The locker rooms, as well as the practice and game fields are also at the Arena. The move to the Arena was supposed to be a permanent move. So the fact they are in the progress of moving them back to campus speaks volumes to the Arena.
I may have a career in politics, but I also know a lot more of the behind the scenes working of the Arena than 95% of the people on this board. At this point, a few million spent to fix the arena up would be like putting a band-aid on a gun shot wound. A few million would not fix the issues at hand, it would take a huge renovation. The cost would be at least half of a new arena. I love my car, but when I get to the point that I have to keep putting money in it to keep it going I am going to get a new car. You can only put so much money into the car before it is a waste of money.
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02-18-2013, 07:24 PM
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Right now financing rates are very low. And I bet there are a lot of construction companies, architects, etc. looking for work.
You could find a worse time to engage in a large project like a new arena.
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02-18-2013, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
but not anymore!
I was very worried that we would be on the outside, looking in, when all the dominos fell and the new conference was formed.
After a conversation I had with someone whom I believe knows what he is talking about, UD has been "in" almost from the begininng. On court performance may not be too strong, but we are near the top of the league in other sports, attendance, fan base and support throughout the geographic footprint of the league, etc. I was told, "no need to worry"
I was also told the new arena may be alot closer to reality than what we realize. A major part of the funding may already be in place. I am personally still not convinced this is needed.
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http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs...w_league.html/
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02-18-2013, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
I am glad other people are hearing this as well. I knew something was up 2 weeks ago when I heard they were moving football back to campus. I know many of you can see the outside of the arena, but what the fans cannot see is not good. There are many issues with the arena and it would cost a large amount of money to fix, enough that they might as well build a new Arena instead of putting more money into the the arena.
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Spending 20 million should get the job done and if they are moving football back it seems that is the decision rather than a new arena. Sure it would be great to have a new arena but the cost would be too great.
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02-19-2013, 09:54 AM
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Without inside information or insight into the internal workings of the facility, which m21eagle seems to have, no one can possibly know what it would take to renovate or properly maintain the UD Arena. We do know that the water table where the Arena is situated has been problematic since Day One given it's proximity to the river and the fact it is mostly below ground level, so what type of corrosion/erosion may have occurred over the past 40 years to the substructure is anybody's guess. We also know that the superstructure is not able to support a full video scoreboard suspended from mid court, so perhaps looking out over the next 30-40 years, UD may have come to the conclusion that it's better to start over with a new multipurpose facility closer to campus. If, and it's a big if, a financial partner can be brought in (and this was mentioned earlier) and it has the support of local officials and can be financed with Industrial Revenue Bonds or other tax exempt securities, the financial burden may not be too great for UD while being quite beneficial to both UD and the local economy. Now, having sad that, the issue of what to do with our existing facility may pose a challenge...it can't simply be abandoned; it will still require capital to maintain it, sold as is or be razed with the land rehabilitated. None of that will be cheap and it will need to be factored into any decision as to how to ultimately proceed.
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02-19-2013, 11:09 AM
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All good points,...
Originally Posted by Bat'71
Without inside information or insight into the internal workings of the facility, which m21eagle seems to have, no one can possibly know what it would take to renovate or properly maintain the UD Arena. We do know that the water table where the Arena is situated has been problematic since Day One given it's proximity to the river and the fact it is mostly below ground level, so what type of corrosion/erosion may have occurred over the past 40 years to the substructure is anybody's guess. We also know that the superstructure is not able to support a full video scoreboard suspended from mid court, so perhaps looking out over the next 30-40 years, UD may have come to the conclusion that it's better to start over with a new multipurpose facility closer to campus. If, and it's a big if, a financial partner can be brought in (and this was mentioned earlier) and it has the support of local officials and can be financed with Industrial Revenue Bonds or other tax exempt securities, the financial burden may not be too great for UD while being quite beneficial to both UD and the local economy. Now, having sad that, the issue of what to do with our existing facility may pose a challenge...it can't simply be abandoned; it will still require capital to maintain it, sold as is or be razed with the land rehabilitated. None of that will be cheap and it will need to be factored into any decision as to how to ultimately proceed.
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Consider a few things, though:
UD invested in its "new" sports complex just about a decade ago,...not a long time,...new baseball and softball stadiums, practice football field and track & field facilties, Welcome Stadium upgrade. And, we have invested $15-$20 million in Arena renovations.
The result is that UD has sports facilities that are among the very best among peer institutions.
What would/could occur that would change the equation, i.e., that would result in a rethinking of what has been a well thought out strategy and plan?
There is only one thing, in my opinion.....a dramatic, unexpected happening that results in a change in the UD sports landscape. The only such change that I can think of is UD basketball at a new, higher level.....the C7+ situation.
That is a whole new ballgame.
And another thing....Dan Curran is not a guy that goes for "incremental" change. Rather, he goes for the "home run".....leaps that take things to the next level, shall we say.
Bottom line: If the rumors that have been batting around on UDPride have any real basis, in my opinion, UD joining the C7+ conference is the underlying motivator.
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02-19-2013, 11:58 AM
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Was told by someone I don't doubt yesterday evening that it will be Xavier, Butler, SLU, Dayton, and Richmond. FWIW
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02-19-2013, 12:05 PM
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why the sudden push for richmond? also...wouldn't VCU be the better choice?
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02-19-2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
why the sudden push for richmond? also...wouldn't VCU be the better choice?
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No, all things considered there's no comparison between Richmond and VCU. (Even their basketball is significantly closer than people seem to realize)
http://www.bbstate.com/schools/RICH/tournament
http://www.bbstate.com/schools/VCU/tournament
Location, academics, being private, that 2 billion dollar endowment.... Honestly, I think Richmond would've been 10 under that scenario.
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02-19-2013, 12:10 PM
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A few things may have changed:
UD may have been told the current Arean is too small for second and third round games, and that this year is the last. I doubt they'd hear that about the first four.
They are getting closer to the day the Arena needs another $30 to $40 million in infrastructure maintenance - that day is out there in the not too distant future.
They and MVH have been discussing their joint concerns about the deterioration of the area from Brown to the river and then past Miami Valley and the need to join together to redevelop that area.
They have been discussing things that would enhance student life, including the abiltiy to bring national acts on to or near campus.
And of course the C7.
If Miami Valley and private development money pony up a good chunk of the bill, and UD looks at the likelihood of the Arena needing major renovation work, then you might get the new arena answer.
I'm not convinced the site is the Fairgrounds however. That could be football/soccer, etc and they could reach a deal with DPS to play there. The new and improved Arena could then be built on Lot D.
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02-19-2013, 12:38 PM
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If the MVgroup were part of this, and the goal was improving the area around both, lot D wouldn't have near the benefits to the MV Group as it would to UD. There is ample room in the fairgrounds for a new, nicely sized arena. You won't have as much surface parking space as they have today around the arena, but that is easily solved w/ parking garages. You could also build parking structures on the other side of Stewart which would increase your areas of egress and not make parking a nightmare.
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02-19-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerFanatic08
why the sudden push for richmond? also...wouldn't VCU be the better choice?
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Richmond has a lot going for it, espeically if the C7 feels the need to have an East-(Mid)West split. Its a growing part of the country the C7 doesn't have established, they have a nice history, great academics, they're of similar scale as the other schools mentioned, major D1 football isn't a reality and their endowment is huge. Their endowment means they can tap into resources pretty easily to build up infastructure to the same level as other schools in the propossed conference.
They obviously don't have the bballs success that VCU has had recently, but I'm not sure there is an eastern seaboard school that fits the generic profile of the eastern C7 schools better than Richmond.
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02-19-2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Title_BU
Was told by someone I don't doubt yesterday evening that it will be Xavier, Butler, SLU, Dayton, and Richmond. FWIW
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Hope your right (or I guess that would be the "someone who told you"), thanks for the info. It certainly feels like things are shaking out in that direction b/w all the tea leaves floating around.
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02-19-2013, 12:43 PM
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Needless to say, I haven't been all that familiar with the Fairgrounds, but the footprint appears to be enormous ( http://www.bing.com/maps/default.asp...PL2&mkt=en-US#) and more than adequate for a multipurpose Arena and parking. It would also fit nicely into the void that appears between MVH and UD, while providing opportunities for economic growth in the area. Obviously any decision on a new facility (and it's location) would be contingent on several items, not simply one issue.
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02-19-2013, 12:52 PM
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No one has responded to my question!
Neither UD, MVH or the City own the Fairgrounds,,,,the County does (I think).
What are the Frairgrounds used for...and why do we think the owner would part with the property?
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02-19-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by UACFlyer
Neither UD, MVH or the City own the Fairgrounds,,,,the County does (I think).
What are the Frairgrounds used for...and why do we think the owner would part with the property?
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Well... the fair, for one.
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02-19-2013, 01:06 PM
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if you go to their list of schedules...not a ton
http://www.montcofair.com/event_calendar.htm#10-2013
There are the flea market/antique shows, 4h auctions, there is the horse show and montgomery county fair and not a whole lot else.
I'm sure the horse show and fair bring in decent money during their weekly run, however for a plot of land that large, there has to be a ton of cost involved keeping it up to code and in respectable condition that eat into whatever they make those 2 weeks.
I'm not sure how definent this is, but there are plans to build a new racino on the old delphi plant off of route 35 (or perhaps its further north on wagner ford???) Something like that is going to be a better facility for the horse show and 4h fairs. the montgomery county fair could be held there, or it could be held on the plot of land currently hosting the arena.
Would they sell? For the right price everything is for sale, but I guess they'd collect more income from the development of that land than they currently make as is.
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02-19-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford
I'm not sure how definent this is, but there are plans to build a new racino on the old delphi plant off of route 35 (or perhaps its further north on wagner ford???) Something like that is going to be a better facility for the horse show and 4h fairs. the montgomery county fair could be held there, or it could be held on the plot of land currently hosting the arena.
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The racino (slots only) is going to be built by Penn National, and it will be off of I75/Needmore exit at Wagner Ford Rd. I think they are still waiting on the Horse Racing commission to approve the move of Raceway park from Toledo to here in Dayton. (Or was it Beulah Park in Columbus ... )
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02-19-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Medford
if you go to their list of schedules...not a ton
http://www.montcofair.com/event_calendar.htm#10-2013
There are the flea market/antique shows, 4h auctions, there is the horse show and montgomery county fair and not a whole lot else.
I'm sure the horse show and fair bring in decent money during their weekly run, however for a plot of land that large, there has to be a ton of cost involved keeping it up to code and in respectable condition that eat into whatever they make those 2 weeks.
I'm not sure how definent this is, but there are plans to build a new racino on the old delphi plant off of route 35 (or perhaps its further north on wagner ford???) Something like that is going to be a better facility for the horse show and 4h fairs. the montgomery county fair could be held there, or it could be held on the plot of land currently hosting the arena.
Would they sell? For the right price everything is for sale, but I guess they'd collect more income from the development of that land than they currently make as is.
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I few years back, I was involved in the purchase of the Lake County, IL (outside Chicago) fairgrounds. The money obtained from the sale was used to purchase land and build a new fairgrounds. It made no economic sense to build the the new fairgrounds. The fair commission could not imagine life without the county fair. The poor 4H kids would have no place to take the pig they raised. Of course the money used to build the new fairground could have served a better purpose for those 4H kids but they had to have a fairgrounds.
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02-19-2013, 01:22 PM
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Fairgrounds is a dump. Grandstands havent had a coat of paint in 30 years it seems. In looking at the aerial view, theres a bit more room there than I previously thought. Tried eyeballing it with the Arena/Welcome footprint. If you remove Welcome and just throw a round coliseum on the property at some wedged in johnny angle, you might be able to make a good dent at adding adequate parking. Will there be any parking across the street on Stewart or will all of that be nothing but retail eventually.
Keep in mind if you wanted to build a new arena today, it would take 24 months to site survey and clear land and two more years to build it. Its a 4-5 year project minimum. And like I said, its a $150M day when all the trimmings are paid for if you want KFC Yum Jr (and you wouldnt bother building anything less impressive).
The county people and long-time land owners are partial to their lands. Whomever owns the Fairgrounds probably views it as sacred land and values the once-a-year bovine beauty contests.
Nothing would happen unless it was privately funded by fat cats. Youd need someone to seed $20-30M out of their own pocket. IAMS Arena. At this point its a fun discussion, but not much more.
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02-19-2013, 01:50 PM
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It appears that the Montgomery County Fairgrounds (like the name implies) is the property of the County. Interestingly enough, the MCF and UD BB go way back ( http://www.montcofair.com/History.html), so maybe development of an Arena there would simply be history coming full circle. With the exception of an Agricultural Fair for 9 days in August, there isn't much going on at the Fairgrounds during the year except for a Flea Market and some odds and ends types of events (e.g. an Antique Doll show, etc.) and they could still be held on the grounds*. Montgomery County could be a prime benenficiary of any deal to improve the area without the need to sell it and could simply enter into a long term lease arrangement ( e.g. 99 years) with UD and MVH. To the degree business development around the area improves, it's a win-win for the City, the County, UD and MVH.
*FWIW, a multipurpose facility along with the surrounding surface parking areas could probably accommodate an Agricultural/4H Fair without too much trouble. He11, if MSG can host Ringling Brothers Circus every year, and if Tractor Pulls are possible, a 4H Fair wouldn't seem to be too much of a hurdle (of course this is coming from a "City Slicker" so maybe there are other considerations, but it should be doable.)
Last edited by Bat'71; 02-19-2013 at 02:01 PM..
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02-19-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123
The racino (slots only) is going to be built by Penn National, and it will be off of I75/Needmore exit at Wagner Ford Rd. I think they are still waiting on the Horse Racing commission to approve the move of Raceway park from Toledo to here in Dayton. (Or was it Beulah Park in Columbus ... )
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Raceway.
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