5 second call near the end of the game

[ud2]

IMO, that was an awfully quick whistle on the 5 second call against UD near the end of the game. I only counted 3 or 4 seconds. I don't know exactly what the rule is though. Can rollo or another ref on here weigh in?

Really, I thought that was a horrendous call by the official.

[dnutz77]

Originally Posted by ud2 IMO, that was an awfully quick whistle on the 5 second call against UD near the end of the game. I only counted 3 or 4 seconds. I don't know exactly what the rule is though. Can rollo or another ref on here weigh in?

Count started near the division line. Vee drove to the right but did NOT get his shoulders clear of Jett, who maintained a legal guarding position the entire time. That was the correct call.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by dnutz77 Count started near the division line. Vee drove to the right but did NOT get his shoulders clear of Jett, who maintained a legal guarding position the entire time. That was the correct call.

What does "shoulders clear" mean? He has to get his shoulders in front of the defender?

[SC_Flyer]

This has to be one of the most subjective things for an official to call and seriously, when was the last time you saw it called? I think it is a rule that has outlived its usefulness with the current shot clock. If they reduce the shot clock time in the future, I think the 5 second rule should go away. Does the NBA have it? If so, I have never seen it called.

On another "rules" topic, what are the current rules about establishing oneself back inbounds after being out? I ask because the SLU player who hit the 3 in the 2nd half on the inbounds play only had one foot clearly inbounds before he caught the ball.

It was a great play to draw up (kudos to Crews), but the official was right there and missed it. It happened so fast in real time that you couldn't even tell what had happened during the broadcast. Thankfully, CBS replayed it and slo-mo on my DVR revealed that the kid didn't get two feet back in before touching the ball.

So, what is the rule?

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Sea Bass]

Vee has to be more aware than that.

[steve]

Well, nobody came to the ball so, initially, that set bad vibes..Secondly, Jett is a tremendous physical specimen, athlete, and defender and he can literally direct offensive players to go where he wants them..Doing that just works the time into their favor..

[Canonball]

Honestly, I think that's the first time I've ever actually seen it called. For a second I was confused thinking there was a lane violation. I don't know what was going on in the closing minutes but the only points we scored were from the charity stripe. The way it was trending I immediately thought 'here we go again finding new ways to lose a game'.

[priceg75]

Originally Posted by SC_Flyer It was a great play to draw up (kudos to Crews), but the official was right there and missed it. It happened so fast in real time that you couldn't even tell what had happened during the broadcast. Thankfully, CBS replayed it and slo-mo on my DVR revealed that the kid didn't get two feet back in before touching the ball. So, what is the rule?

I think as long as you get one foot in bounds and aren't still also touching out of bounds you are fine.

[Odrab14]

Originally Posted by ud2 IMO, that was an awfully quick whistle on the 5 second call against UD near the end of the game. I only counted 3 or 4 seconds. I don't know exactly what the rule is though. Can rollo or another ref on here weigh in? Really, I thought that was a horrendous call by the official.

By definition it was the right call. He was pushed laterally and not driving towards the basket and shoulders didnt clear.

Not to be basketball 101 but the coach in me uses this as a perfect coaching opportunity.

The 5 second call is not on V. It is on his teammates. Failing to come to the ball.

Right call though by the ref

[TerryK_67]

Pure BS call..... 98% of the refs would not have even started the count in that situation. The rule is obsolete, and there is zero consistency in how refs enforce it.

It never ceases to amaze me how the “refs” on this board go over all the replays and ALWAYS justify that the ref made the RIGHT call. NEVER once have I seen you guys say they blew it. Maybe that is precisely the problem. There are sooo many interpretations within the rules that you can justify each and every call.

While all you refs were reviewing the sequence, how many fouls did you see that were not called? An awful lot of physical play was let go by the SLU defense in those last 3 minutes….. But in relation to how the rest of the game was played, I think they were consistent (except on that 5 sec call)..... They let em play the whole night!

GO FLYERS!

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by TerryK_67 Pure BS call..... 98% of the refs would not have even started the count in that situation. The rule is obsolete, and there is zero consistency in how refs enforce it. It never ceases to amaze me how the “refs” on this board go over all the replays and ALWAYS justify that the ref made the RIGHT call. NEVER once have I seen you guys say they blew it. Maybe that is precisely the problem. There are sooo many interpretations within the rules that you can justify each and every call. While all you refs were reviewing the sequence, how many fouls did you see that were not called? An awful lot of physical play was let go by the SLU defense in those last 3 minutes….. But in relation to how the rest of the game was played, I think they were consistent (except on that 5 sec call)..... They let em play the whole night! GO FLYERS!

Personally I would like to thank all the Refs on this board for clarification of rules when they do come up. And yes, I have seen it said on here by the refs that a call was blown. Thanks guys

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Odrab14]

Originally Posted by TerryK_67 Pure BS call..... 98% of the refs would not have even started the count in that situation. The rule is obsolete, and there is zero consistency in how refs enforce it. It never ceases to amaze me how the “refs” on this board go over all the replays and ALWAYS justify that the ref made the RIGHT call. NEVER once have I seen you guys say they blew it. Maybe that is precisely the problem. There are sooo many interpretations within the rules that you can justify each and every call. While all you refs were reviewing the sequence, how many fouls did you see that were not called? An awful lot of physical play was let go by the SLU defense in those last 3 minutes….. But in relation to how the rest of the game was played, I think they were consistent (except on that 5 sec call)..... They let em play the whole night! GO FLYERS!

Trust me I have said plenty they blew it..But it normally looks like this:

You Dumb M*#$%^ F%^^$#%^ !!!


But the 5 second call was correct so I couldn't say:

You Dumb M*#$%^ F%^^$#%^ !!!

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Odrab14 By definition it was the right call. He was pushed laterally and not driving towards the basket and shoulders didnt clear.

What does "shoulders clear" mean exactly?

Whether or not his shoulders were clear seems to be the key issue here.

[SC_Flyer]

Originally Posted by priceg75 I think as long as you get one foot in bounds and aren't still also touching out of bounds you are fine.

I don't want to know what people think, I want to know what the rules say. I found this on one web site, but it was again, someone else quoting the rules:

The rules of basketball make it pretty clear that you can't touch the ball while any part of you is out of bounds. The rules are different if a player steps out without the ball. Players who go out of bounds can legally rejoin the play and touch the ball once they have both feet back on the court.

This was always my understanding during my younger playing years. Both feet had to be back in bounds before you touched the ball.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by Odrab14 Trust me I have said plenty they blew it..But it normally looks like this: You Dumb M*#$%^ F%^^$#%^ !!! But the 5 second call was correct so I couldn't say: You Dumb M*#$%^ F%^^$#%^ !!!

It doesn't matter if it was the right call or not. I say that anyway.

[NovaFlyer]

I gave up trying to understand what the refs will and will not call. Seems the whole refereeing process is like scoring figure skating, or being sponsored by Nike: Just do it. Maybe attending a referee camp should be added to our bucket list?

[Odrab14]

Originally Posted by ud2 What does "shoulders clear" mean exactly? Whether or not his shoulders were clear seems to be the key issue here.

Hmmm..

Hard to explain without visual..Probably a definition somewhere.
I teach it in terms of chest to chest defense. The offensive players should/ would need to clear the parellel of the defensive player. Or think of it like turn the corner or getting past to open space unshielded by defender. Technically the rule states a radius of closeness but once the offensive player clears the ref drops the count.

In this instance. The count started as Vee was backing up and dribbling with Jett within the radius. He then try to dribble past/Clear Jett who chested laterally and all the way to the side not allowing Vee to clear. Thus the penalty was called.
Hope that helps!!

3 coaching points for any guards and teams listening:

#1 This is a team turnover- Vee was left on an island. Archie possibly could have called timeout too.

#2- One of the hardest things to teach a young kid facing defensive pressure (high school and younger) is their allowed time with the ball. Catch the ball before dribbling and you can hold it for five seconds with a guy on you. Then dribble and you get another 5 seconds. Pick it up and you get another 5 seconds. Would I want that, No.. But it teaches guards patience and control.

#3- Vee could have pushed hard right and then pushed back dribbled to create space thus resetting the count. He is not our point guard though and more of a driving wing.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Odrab14 Hmmm.. Hard to explain without visual..Probably a definition somewhere. I teach it in terms of chest to chest defense. The offensive players should/ would need to clear the parellel of the defensive player. Or think of it like turn the corner or getting past to open space unshielded by defender. Technically the rule states a radius of closeness but once the offensive player clears the ref drops the count. In this instance. The count started as Vee was backing up and dribbling with Jett within the radius. He then try to dribble past/Clear Jett who chested laterally and all the way to the side not allowing Vee to clear. Thus the penalty was called. Hope that helps!! 3 coaching points for any guards and teams listening: #1 This is a team turnover- Vee was left on an island. Archie possibly could have called timeout too. #2- One of the hardest things to teach a young kid facing defensive pressure (high school and younger) is their allowed time with the ball. Catch the ball before dribbling and you can hold it for five seconds with a guy on you. Then dribble and you get another 5 seconds. Pick it up and you get another 5 seconds. Would I want that, No.. But it teaches guards patience and control. #3- Vee could have pushed hard right and then pushed back dribbled to create space thus resetting the count. He is not our point guard though and more of a driving wing.

That was an excellent explanation! Thank-you!

I didn't know about the "shoulders clearing" being part of the rule.

I now believe that the correct call was made. My mistake.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by ud2 That was an excellent explanation! Thank-you! I didn't know about the "shoulders clearing" being part of the rule. I now believe that the correct call was made. My mistake.

You bet it was a mistake...You Dumb M*#$%^ F%^^$#%^ !!! (just kidding)

Go Flyers.

[Odrab14]

Originally Posted by ud2 That was an excellent explanation! Thank-you! I didn't know about the "shoulders clearing" being part of the rule. I now believe that the correct call was made. My mistake.

"Shoulders clear" is more the visual required to make the call
It is a very tough call and one to be honest each ref tends to flavor differently. Interpretive rule!!!

I agree it was right call

[jack72]

The other part of the rule is that a player must be closely guarded (6 feet) while dribbling or holding the ball, and once he is not by the same defender the count restarts. The defender must be facing the player and guarding, not just near him. You will see the ref hold both arms out when there is not close guarding. Also the ref will change hands counting when a dribble goes to standing or vice versa.

I agree it is a somewhat useless rule with the shotclock. It stays around for the last two minutes of a game, but perhaps it should be changed to that.

[SeasonTicketFan]

The refs make hand signals and counts when they are beginning to count. So you should see them start to gesture with their hands from one to five. They will also spread their hands in the baseball safe manner to indicate that separation occurred and the count is off.

It is not called often, but I agree with comments above, that no one came up to get the ball. Fortunately, that and other turnovers did not hurt UD.

[Class of 73 Alum]

I don't agree that it was a good call. I taped the game and rewatched that play 5 or 6 times. The ref started the "one" count as soon as Jett closed in, instead of allowing one second to pass before starting the "one" count. I even timed it on my watch with my son's help. Four seconds, or darned close, had passed and not five.

But in the end, who cares, we won!

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Class of 73 Alum I don't agree that it was a good call. I taped the game and rewatched that play 5 or 6 times. The ref started the "one" count as soon as Jett closed in, instead of allowing one second to pass before starting the "one" count. I even timed it on my watch with my son's help. Four seconds, or darned close, had passed and not five. But in the end, who cares, we won!

I'm going to whine some more about this horrendous call.

Class of 73, that is exactly what I saw too. I replayed the 5 second call a few times, and 5 seconds did not elapse regardless of whether Sanford's shoulders cleared or not, so I am reversing my opinion back to my original opinion: that was a horrendous call by the official, his whistle was too quick.

But, UD won the game, so luckily that horrendous call didn't matter.