|
|
01-24-2019, 07:59 AM
|
|
General of the Air Force
|
|
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
|
|
Question for the ref on here
Late in the ladies game yesterday UD point guard was holding the ball on the parimeter. Shauna was yelling instructions to the point guard and players. All of a sudden a five second violation was called with Shauna going livid. The ref at the center of the play told her..I didn't make the call. In fact it was the female ref on far side at mid court who made the call. The far side ref proudly walked to scorers table holding five fingers stating it was a 5 sec violation. The male ref walked up to her and told her that was his call.
There was brief discussion between refs but she didn't budge saying again it was 5 sec violation, responding to SLU coach yelling for the 5 sec call.
Shauna argued that if they had seen a ref counting then she would have told the guard to pass it. The first ref didn't feel they were guarding her so he didn't start the count. The second ref on near side with second best view didn't call anything either. But it was the 3rd ref with the worst view who made the call. Not sure if she even counted or just responded to SLU coach yelling.
I would think the refs would work better together than that. If the ref isn't counting then you can hold the ball till 30 sec shot clock violation.
The noise level was so high it was hard for players to hear coaches. That's why a ref right in front of Shauna and the play would be important to know if they had to get rid of the ball. No arm movement by ref no counting.
Last edited by Avid Flyer; 01-24-2019 at 08:10 AM..
|
01-24-2019, 08:18 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,574
Thanks: 16,265
Thanked 15,914 Times in 6,996 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by Avid Flyer
Late in the ladies game yesterday UD point guard was holding the ball on the parimeter. Shauna was yelling instructions to the point guard and players. All of a sudden a five second violation was called with Shauna going livid. The ref at the center of the play told her..I didn't make the call. In fact it was the female ref on far side at mid court who made the call. The far side ref proudly walked to scorers table holding five fingers stating it was a 5 sec violation. The male ref walked up to her and told her that was his call.
There was brief discussion between refs but she didn't budge saying again it was 5 sec violation, responding to SLU coach yelling for the 5 sec call.
Shauna argued that if they had seen a ref counting then she would have told the guard to pass it. The first ref didn't feel they were guarding her so he didn't start the count. The second ref on near side with second best view didn't call anything either. But it was the 3rd ref with the worst view who made the call. Not sure if she even counted or just responded to SLU coach yelling.
I would think the refs would work better together than that.
|
Women's college basketball rules differ from men's college basketball rules which differ from Ohio HS basketball rules... With that said, here's my assessment.
First: In men's college basketball there is no 5-sec defensive call any more. I believe the NCAA removed that when they reduced the shot clock to 30-sec.
2nd: Since there's obviously a 5-sec call in women's college basketball, it's the responsibility of the PRIMARY official to start the count. Recall that the frontcourt is divided into 3 areas, one for the lead (baseline) official, one for the trail (midcourtish) official and one for the center (opposite side) official. If the ball handler crosses midcourt on the side of the trail official, then the trail official is the ONLY one who can call a 5-second violation. UNLESS...
Unless what?? Unless the ball handler advanced from the Trail official's PRIMARY to another official's PRIMARY. In that case the official who started the count continues the count even though the ball is now out of their PRIMARY. So now you'll see an official who appears to be off-the-ball making a call that to the casual observer may think isn't his/her responsibility. When the ball is passed or the defender backs off, the original 5-sec count ends and then the new PRIMARY official is responsible for the 5next -sec call.
So I'm guessing that the female official started the count when the ball was in her PRIMARY (purple) and continued the count even though the ball handler had moved and weaved her way across the court (white). I'm also assuming that the new PRIMARY official started a 5-sec count concurrent - but not coordinated with - the other official.
Am I right?? Without video, that's the only explanation that makes sense to me.
FWIW, here's the frontcourt division of PRIMARY coverage. (L) is lead, (T) is trail, (C) is center.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Last edited by rollo; 01-24-2019 at 08:27 AM..
|
01-24-2019, 08:44 AM
|
|
I Am A Statistical God
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Riverside, Ohio
Posts: 5,511
Thanks: 4,692
Thanked 6,171 Times in 2,321 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by rollo
First: In men's college basketball there is no 5-sec defensive call any more. I believe the NCAA removed that when they reduced the shot clock to 30-sec.
|
I thought they had changed HOW the 5 second call was made, not that they removed it entirely. Something about closely guarded position, or dribbling the ball, or something like that. But, your the ref, and I'm the statistician.
|
Mad Props to Figgie123 For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
01-24-2019, 09:02 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,574
Thanks: 16,265
Thanked 15,914 Times in 6,996 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by Figgie123
I thought they had changed HOW the 5 second call was made, not that they removed it entirely. Something about closely guarded position, or dribbling the ball, or something like that. But, your the ref, and I'm the statistician.
|
In NCAA men's basketball, there is no 5-sec call when dribbling...
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
01-24-2019, 11:00 AM
|
General of the Air Force
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,778
Thanks: 5,498
Thanked 6,255 Times in 3,097 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by rollo
In NCAA men's basketball, there is no 5-sec call when dribbling...
|
In this situation, she was not dribbling. Are you saying men's basketball, 5 sec can still be called if the player is just standing there holding the ball? Does it make a difference if they are closely guarded or not?
|
01-24-2019, 11:02 AM
|
Lieutenant General
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 4,065
Thanks: 5,603
Thanked 2,345 Times in 1,340 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by rollo
In NCAA men's basketball, there is no 5-sec call when dribbling...
|
Correct no five second closely guarded while dribbling but still a five second call for closely guarded while not dribbling, which I believe is what the original post describes.
|
Mad Props to CT Flyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
01-24-2019, 02:16 PM
|
|
General of the Air Force
|
|
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
|
|
Except in this case the primary ref did not feel she was being closely guarded therefore he didn't start the count. All three guard ref and coach were within 10 ft of one anothet. The ref right in front of Shauna so she would see if ref started a count. Primary ref didn't seem too pleased his counter part farthest away from the play called it.
In my head watching live I wondered about the 5 sec rule but again looking at the ref right in front me he wasn't movin his arm in a count motion.
|
01-24-2019, 03:11 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,574
Thanks: 16,265
Thanked 15,914 Times in 6,996 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by Avid Flyer
Except in this case the primary ref did not feel she was being closely guarded therefore he didn't start the count. All three guard ref and coach were within 10 ft of one anothet. The ref right in front of Shauna so she would see if ref started a count. Primary ref didn't seem too pleased his counter part farthest away from the play called it.
In my head watching live I wondered about the 5 sec rule but again looking at the ref right in front me he wasn't movin his arm in a count motion.
|
With that said, here's my 2nd assessment!
In each game there are 3 officials. Two are refs and 1 is the umpire...the umpire is the one who runs the pregame discussions, checks the scorebooks before tipoff, checks the ball, etc...
They also have the last say on calls and quite often are the one's you see with the chip on their shoulder. So I'm just guessing, but I bet she was the Umpire...and wasn't in the best of moods.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
|
01-24-2019, 03:24 PM
|
|
Brigadier General
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,970
Thanks: 4,493
Thanked 1,430 Times in 680 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by rollo
Women's college basketball rules differ from men's college basketball rules which differ from Ohio HS basketball rules...
|
This made for an embarrassing moment when I was in the band at a women's game and we were getting on an official for missing an obvious 10 sec violation. They informed us during a timeout that (at that time) there wasn't one in the women's game...
|
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to flyerfanatic86 For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
01-24-2019, 04:09 PM
|
|
Lieutenant Colonel
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 955
Thanks: 1,496
Thanked 233 Times in 129 Posts
|
|
I have a question about a call in the men's GM game, I was not able to record the game to review the call.
Jalen was called for traveling late in the game. It appeared to me he went up in the air to shoot, saw he was going to get it blocked, so he let go of the ball before coming back down. The ref called traveling immediately. I thought the ref should have waited to make the call to see if Jalen grabbed the loose ball. I know Jalen did grab the ball, but it appeared to be in frustration after the ref's whisle.
|
Mad Props to mikeymo85 For This Totally Excellent Post:
|
|
01-24-2019, 05:25 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bluffton, SC
Posts: 22,258
Thanks: 17,641
Thanked 10,170 Times in 5,898 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by mikeymo85
I have a question about a call in the men's GM game, I was not able to record the game to review the call.
Jalen was called for traveling late in the game. It appeared to me he went up in the air to shoot, saw he was going to get it blocked, so he let go of the ball before coming back down. The ref called traveling immediately. I thought the ref should have waited to make the call to see if Jalen grabbed the loose ball. I know Jalen did grab the ball, but it appeared to be in frustration after the ref's whisle.
|
Anybody have a replay of this. The question is did Jalen hit the floor before he let go of the ball? The ref said he did.
|
01-24-2019, 07:05 PM
|
|
General of the Air Force
|
|
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by rollo
With that said, here's my 2nd assessment!
In each game there are 3 officials. Two are refs and 1 is the umpire...the umpire is the one who runs the pregame discussions, checks the scorebooks before tipoff, checks the ball, etc...
They also have the last say on calls and quite often are the one's you see with the chip on their shoulder. So I'm just guessing, but I bet she was the Umpire...and wasn't in the best of moods.
|
You are probably right on this one as everytime there was a review the two females refs went to the monitor while he staid back. Only when the wanted a third opinion did they call him to the monitor.
|
01-24-2019, 07:17 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,593
Thanks: 3,395
Thanked 6,634 Times in 3,033 Posts
|
|
Originally Posted by jack72
Anybody have a replay of this. The question is did Jalen hit the floor before he let go of the ball? The ref said he did.
|
I would like to see a replay of that too. From where I sit it looked like he let go of the ball while still in the air.
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|