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  #501  
Old 03-03-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
I agree but that’s missing my specific point. “Today” should they expand I’d not for a moment feel confident we’d be invited even coming off a successful run. Today the decision makers are more against us (says my gut) than during the formation of the NBE.
We haven't proven we can sustain success. Butler, Xavier, Creighton did it through multiple coaches. Was Archie a one off thing or will the train keep rolling

They've got a good thing going right now. From their perspective they don't know if they're bringing in another Depaul
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  #502  
Old 03-03-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
We don't win enough. If St Louis and Dayton the success on the court that Butler, Creighton and Xavier had we'd be in the Big East
Generally true, but IMHO not entirely. I say that for 3 reasons:
1) Both UD and SLU did a lot of winning since @ 2010-11. SLU had Big Rick (RIP) and we had Archie. Both programs were at least on a par with Creighton during that time, yet Creighton got the nod over SLU & UD. Granted, neither has seen the extended success that Creighton has, but both programs have had their successes within the past decade.
2) Regarding bias against the Marianists, I believe there is some, at least among the old guard. As I’ve said elsewhere, my mom taught at UD for 45 years, and when the subject of our “friends” on Victory Parkway would come up, she’d say “The Jesuits really know where to find the money.” She didn’t mean it as a compliment, and I’m confident that the _avier folks thought of UD as the snot-nosed little brother.
3) My daughter is a SLU grad, and she attended while Fr. Biondi was University President. A good guy, and a good leader, but not necessarily a “party-line” leader. I’m sure he pi$$ed-off some Jesuit brass along the way.
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  #503  
Old 03-03-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
We haven't proven we can sustain success. Butler, Xavier, Creighton did it through multiple coaches. Was Archie a one off thing or will the train keep rolling

They've got a good thing going right now. From their perspective they don't know if they're bringing in another Depaul
Another fair point but I think we’re past that in the sense we have the facilities, community support that the “DePauls” have never had. Our biggest BE critics will concede we’d grow into the BE. I sense other factors.
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  #504  
Old 03-03-2018, 01:48 PM
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Hayward and Howard were both Indiana guys that in the end wanted to play for Brad Stevens. Matt Howard's final decision was between Butler and Dayton, with Xavier the odd man out. Matt and his dad both LOVED Brian Gregory and Billy Schmidt, but ultimately decided that Stevens was better situated to get Matt to where he wanted to be. Matt is a great person and has had a successful and rewarding career oversees where he lives with his wife.
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  #505  
Old 03-03-2018, 02:03 PM
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Facilities and fan supports an ingredient but if you're not consistently winning across coaches it doesn't matter. There's no guarantee on their side the Dayton wouldn't be a bottom feeder.

Dayton and St Louis have flashes of successes but consistent enough or across multiple coaches. What value does either program bring to the Big East? They've got a national title 5-6 bids to the NCAA's every year. To them it's no guarantee the program does anything and they have to cut us in on NCAA/Fox money

I discount the Jesuit angle or Xavier doesn't want to share Ohio angle.

In 2013 when the decision was made Creighton had 9 NCAA appearances since 1999. That's more than Dayton and St Louis put together in that time span.
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  #506  
Old 03-03-2018, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer View Post
Hayward and Howard were both Indiana guys that in the end wanted to play for Brad Stevens. Matt Howard's final decision was between Butler and Dayton, with Xavier the odd man out. Matt and his dad both LOVED Brian Gregory and Billy Schmidt, but ultimately decided that Stevens was better situated to get Matt to where he wanted to be. Matt is a great person and has had a successful and rewarding career oversees where he lives with his wife.
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Miami was a pretty serious contender IIRC being 'close' to Connersville
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  #507  
Old 03-03-2018, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Facilities and fan supports an ingredient but if you're not consistently winning across coaches it doesn't matter. There's no guarantee on their side the Dayton wouldn't be a bottom feeder.

Dayton and St Louis have flashes of successes but consistent enough or across multiple coaches. What value does either program bring to the Big East? They've got a national title 5-6 bids to the NCAA's every year. To them it's no guarantee the program does anything and they have to cut us in on NCAA/Fox money

I discount the Jesuit angle or Xavier doesn't want to share Ohio angle.

In 2013 when the decision was made Creighton had 9 NCAA appearances since 1999. That's more than Dayton and St Louis put together in that time span.
Again I can't argue your points, but play the game with me- presuming the BE MUST HAVE an 11th/12th team to appease the TV gods- who meets the criteria if not UD or SLU? I'd argue no one, but we'd still get passed by for another school.
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  #508  
Old 03-03-2018, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
Again I can't argue your points, but play the game with me- presuming the BE MUST HAVE an 11th/12th team to appease the TV gods- who meets the criteria if not UD or SLU? I'd argue no one, but we'd still get passed by for another school.
absolutely agree on criteria. Who would they take over Dayton/STL

From reading what the Creighton AD said in the Omaha paper he was out looking at Wichita State but the Big East wasn't interested. Reasonable to assume they aren't interested in public schools.

If you take out public schools, assume that Gonzaga's geography precludes them and I think that leaves a very small pool of schools to consider. Richmond is the only one that I can think of
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  #509  
Old 03-03-2018, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
absolutely agree on criteria. Who would they take over Dayton/STL

From reading what the Creighton AD said in the Omaha paper he was out looking at Wichita State but the Big East wasn't interested. Reasonable to assume they aren't interested in public schools.

If you take out public schools, assume that Gonzaga's geography precludes them and I think that leaves a very small pool of schools to consider. Richmond is the only one that I can think of
Agree. I’d say the selection would go in this order for the reasons I state above:
SLU
Richmond
UD

Thus my willingness to be open to the AAC as an alternative though they may not be interested.
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  #510  
Old 03-03-2018, 02:59 PM
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I can't say for sure for but I tend to think the AAC would give us some real consideration especially if UC/Wichita get squeezed from 20 games schedules
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  #511  
Old 03-03-2018, 05:04 PM
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The fact that we have a rebuilding season after 4 starting seniors graduate does not mean we are less deserving than Depaul, St Johns or Georgetown this year.

See, you cannot have it both ways. If we are so bad that we cannot get in, then those schools do not belong there either. If you want to go by their past performance, then I will point you to ours.
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  #512  
Old 03-03-2018, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
The fact that we have a rebuilding season after 4 starting seniors graduate does not mean we are less deserving than Depaul, St Johns or Georgetown this year.

See, you cannot have it both ways. If we are so bad that we cannot get in, then those schools do not belong there either. If you want to go by their past performance, then I will point you to ours.


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  #513  
Old 03-03-2018, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by IndianaFlyer View Post
Hayward and Howard were both Indiana guys that in the end wanted to play for Brad Stevens. Matt Howard's final decision was between Butler and Dayton, with Xavier the odd man out. Matt and his dad both LOVED Brian Gregory and Billy Schmidt, but ultimately decided that Stevens was better situated to get Matt to where he wanted to be. Matt is a great person and has had a successful and rewarding career oversees where he lives with his wife.
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Cool story. Gotta love Howard. Guys like that made it hard to root against Butler.
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  #514  
Old 03-03-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
In 2013 when the decision was made Creighton had 9 NCAA appearances since 1999. That's more than Dayton and St Louis put together in that time span.

Yet Creighton has never won two consecutive games in the NCAA tournament. That has to be frustrating. I always pick against them in the bracket because they always wet the bed...
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
Agree. I’d say the selection would go in this order for the reasons I state above:
SLU
Richmond
UD

Thus my willingness to be open to the AAC as an alternative though they may not be interested.
Don’t laugh, but I’d throw Duquesne into that mix for the Pittsburgh market. Davidson has been posited too in an article I read a couple of months ago.

https://www.bannersontheparkway.com/...hing-beautiful

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  #516  
Old 03-04-2018, 03:30 PM
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TV markets matter for things like the Big 10 network because they make money off of in market subscriber fees when the expand into NJ and Maryland. For Fox Sports 1 that isn't a factor, Davidson isn't driving up subscriber fees in Charlotte

The problem with Duquesne and Davidson is they don't have the attendance/facilities/basketball budget to build a consistently competitive program in the Big East.
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Old 03-04-2018, 05:12 PM
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[QUOTE=funky15;493848]I think our scheduling needs to be a hell lot better too. This non-conference schedule this year was horrible. If we can schedule on a consistent basis some half decent teams, and beat them consistently, then I think Dayton joining a bigger conference will become a better possibility.[/QUOTE)

As you refering to one of the top 5 toughest OOC schedules in the country?
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  #518  
Old 03-04-2018, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Facilities and fan supports an ingredient but if you're not consistently winning across coaches it doesn't matter. There's no guarantee on their side the Dayton wouldn't be a bottom feeder.

Dayton and St Louis have flashes of successes but consistent enough or across multiple coaches. What value does either program bring to the Big East? They've got a national title 5-6 bids to the NCAA's every year. To them it's no guarantee the program does anything and they have to cut us in on NCAA/Fox money

I discount the Jesuit angle or Xavier doesn't want to share Ohio angle.

In 2013 when the decision was made Creighton had 9 NCAA appearances since 1999. That's more than Dayton and St Louis put together in that time span.
I said Creighton had more success over a longer time frame than either UD or SLU, so I agree with that part of the argument against UD or SLU in the BE. Both programs have had to "earn it", and neither has a 10-15 year record of consistent NCAA berths to fall back on. Have they won? Yes, but not for as long as Creighton, or as consistently as Creighton.

Regarding your second point, I have personal experience with old-guard Marianist/Jesuit animosity, and the people who made the decision in re who to invite to the initial "BE Expansion" party weren't a bunch of 30-something Ivy League MBAs, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that part of it. And, if I'm Xavier, I want the "fishing hole" to myself, and I won't share it with UD until I'm forced to. Human nature among the powerful. How much is "enough"? I'll have to agree to disagree on that part of the argument as well.

And regarding fan support and the rest of your point, I didn't say anything about that in this thread.
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
I said Creighton had more success over a longer time frame than either UD or SLU, so I agree with that part of the argument against UD or SLU in the BE. Both programs have had to "earn it", and neither has a 10-15 year record of consistent NCAA berths to fall back on. Have they won? Yes, but not for as long as Creighton, or as consistently as Creighton.
And UD's President was not on the Marquette Board of Trustees.
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:31 PM
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So let's work with a hypothetical scenario for a moment.

AG gets us back in the tourney next year and the program gets rolling again. Jalen Crutcher, Jordan Davis and Cohill get us to back to back Sweet 16s the next two years after.

2025 rolls around and Dayton has been to the tourney 9/10 seasons since 2014 with some trips to second weekend sprinkled in. The ACC, B10, SEC & PAC 12 have all expanded to a 20 game schedule. The Big East is clearly being hurt by having 18 conference games. They need an 11th team to get to 20 games.

Creighton's AD all but confirms public schools are out. UConn is committed to football. Dayton is the best program performance wise out of the private schools in the Midwest/East Coast.

Does the Big East take the best possible program available? Do the Jesuits and Xavier look to keep to Dayton out?
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  #521  
Old 03-04-2018, 08:01 PM
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Yes, now whether they are successful is another question
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Old 03-04-2018, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
So let's work with a hypothetical scenario for a moment.

AG gets us back in the tourney next year and the program gets rolling again. Jalen Crutcher, Jordan Davis and Cohill get us to back to back Sweet 16s the next two years after.

2025 rolls around and Dayton has been to the tourney 9/10 seasons since 2014 with some trips to second weekend sprinkled in. The ACC, B10, SEC & PAC 12 have all expanded to a 20 game schedule. The Big East is clearly being hurt by having 18 conference games. They need an 11th team to get to 20 games.

Creighton's AD all but confirms public schools are out. UConn is committed to football. Dayton is the best program performance wise out of the private schools in the Midwest/East Coast.

Does the Big East take the best possible program available? Do the Jesuits and Xavier look to keep to Dayton out?
If SLU & Richmond flounder our chances are >50%, in other words not a lock. If no separation of the 3 programs we're on the outside looking in.
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Old 03-04-2018, 09:29 PM
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It's only natural for Xavier to not want to share the Big East with another local school. It only hurts their ability to recruit at a high level.

Think Ohio State would let UC in the Big 10?

Think UD is letting Wright St in the A-10?

I'm not saying never, but IMO the Big East would look to SLU (& UCONN if they eventually give up football) before UD.
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  #524  
Old 03-04-2018, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
It's only natural for Xavier to not want to share the Big East with another local school. It only hurts their ability to recruit at a high level.

Think Ohio State would let UC in the Big 10?

Think UD is letting Wright St in the A-10?

I'm not saying never, but IMO the Big East would look to SLU (& UCONN if they eventually give up football) before UD.
Virginia brought Virginia Tech into the ACC. Florida State brought Miami. The Texas schools in the Big 12 brought in TCU

If it's a benefit to the conference I think that stuff goes out the window
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Old 03-04-2018, 10:17 PM
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UD is not getting in the NBE
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Old 03-04-2018, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Virginia brought Virginia Tech into the ACC. Florida State brought Miami. The Texas schools in the Big 12 brought in TCU

If it's a benefit to the conference I think that stuff goes out the window
Somewhat of an "apples to oranges" comparison.

Virginia, Florida State, and "the Texas schools" are primarily large, public universities that aren't threatened by a situation like this. _avier, on the other hand, is a small-to-medium private school that doesn't have the same level of name recognition in the general population.

Also, I have to believe that FBS-level TV $ played a role in UVA, FSU, etc. allowing others to play in their sandbox. X doesn't have any such alternate revenue stream. It's men's hoops or nothing. So, allowing UD into the BE could mean less TV $ for X's men's hoops. At least, that's their fear.
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Old 03-04-2018, 10:55 PM
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The new Big East yesterday formally inked a 12-year, $500M contract with Fox Sports, a “sum that will rise" to $600M if, "as expected, the league expands to 12 members,” according to Richard Sandomir of the N.Y. TIMES.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...-East-MWC.aspx
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
The new Big East yesterday formally inked a 12-year, $500M contract with Fox Sports, a “sum that will rise" to $600M if, "as expected, the league expands to 12 members,” according to Richard Sandomir of the N.Y. TIMES.

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...-East-MWC.aspx
So I see what your point is for sharing this 5 year old story- sorry for my confusion. The good news is that the agreement increase Fox revenue for additional teams.

Last edited by FlyerBob; 03-04-2018 at 11:16 PM..
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyerBob View Post
You had me going there OSU Flyer- until I see the date of the article as 3/21/2013. The one bit of good news is that the agreement increase Fox revenue for additional teams. But its been 5 years so the bloom is off that rose....
The point was to highlight that the TV deal money goes up if more teams are added. From what I've read about the recent 11 team stuff I still think that's the case
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:18 PM
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Yes, my bad. I edited my response but too late....
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Old 03-05-2018, 01:18 AM
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Agree with Sea Bass, very unlikely Ud getting into BE. Perhaps 1% chance in next 10 years, about the same chance as Dayton winning the A-10 tournament this year .... which is 1% according to kenpom
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Somewhat of an "apples to oranges" comparison.

Virginia, Florida State, and "the Texas schools" are primarily large, public universities that aren't threatened by a situation like this. _avier, on the other hand, is a small-to-medium private school that doesn't have the same level of name recognition in the general population.

Also, I have to believe that FBS-level TV $ played a role in UVA, FSU, etc. allowing others to play in their sandbox. X doesn't have any such alternate revenue stream. It's men's hoops or nothing. So, allowing UD into the BE could mean less TV $ for X's men's hoops. At least, that's their fear.
I don't know about Miami and Florida St but I believe the Virginia legislature forced VT being included in the ACC. Would not allow Virginia to go unless VT was included. I believe the Texas situation was similar.

Nobody is doing the for UD in the be.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:54 AM
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I agree that our chances of getting into the BE are slim. They just don't seem to like us for whatever reason (kind of like the last kid picked for a team on the playground). That's one reason moving to the AAC (with VCU) is so intriguing to me. It appears that is the only conference upgrade available to us. We should be proactive working with VCU to present a deal to the AAC. It appears we are not doing that. We may be approaching the Big East but there is no evidence of that either. It appears we are simply sitting back waiting for an invitation which may never come. (The arena renovations were needed regardless of our position on conference affiliation.)
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:24 PM
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Tough to predict the future. If you told Butler fans in 2003 that they would have move up from playing Wright State before a couple thousand to the Big East, I don't think you'd have many believers.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I agree that our chances of getting into the BE are slim. They just don't seem to like us for whatever reason (kind of like the last kid picked for a team on the playground). That's one reason moving to the AAC (with VCU) is so intriguing to me. It appears that is the only conference upgrade available to us. We should be proactive working with VCU to present a deal to the AAC. It appears we are not doing that. We may be approaching the Big East but there is no evidence of that either. It appears we are simply sitting back waiting for an invitation which may never come. (The arena renovations were needed regardless of our position on conference affiliation.)
The AAC may very well be intriguing, but it does come with a huge risk. The AAC consists of ALL the Big Time Football Wanna Be's - all of whom would jump at the invite to go to a Power 5 football conference. And it's not a matter IF, but rather WHEN, there is any kind of conference shuffle, the AAC will have members that are a part of it - with likely programs of Cincy, Houston, Memphis, UConn, SMU being the ones to jump or draw outside interest. They also happen to be the programs that have had the most success on the basketball court too.

Jumping to the AAC could pose a risk that when that reshuffle happens, we're holding our d!cks in the wind.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:44 PM
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With the Big 12 looking at all those schools for expansion and deciding none of them were worth bringing on it I think the risk is less. It's still there but I don't think any of those football programs are going to get to the point where they're attractive enough to get the call up
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
The AAC may very well be intriguing, but it does come with a huge risk. The AAC consists of ALL the Big Time Football Wanna Be's - all of whom would jump at the invite to go to a Power 5 football conference. And it's not a matter IF, but rather WHEN, there is any kind of conference shuffle, the AAC will have members that are a part of it - with likely programs of Cincy, Houston, Memphis, UConn, SMU being the ones to jump or draw outside interest. They also happen to be the programs that have had the most success on the basketball court too.

Jumping to the AAC could pose a risk that when that reshuffle happens, we're holding our d!cks in the wind.


Would the remnants be any worse than what is currently in the A10? VCU would most likely move. URI/SLU are the only one's I'd put in the 'good' category perhaps richmond. Teams like St. Joes etc have success but not the support/money.
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:28 PM
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In that situation of an AAC collapse or our current situation. If you invest in your program and win games, good things will happen.
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by shwag33 View Post
Would the remnants be any worse than what is currently in the A10? VCU would most likely move. URI/SLU are the only one's I'd put in the 'good' category perhaps richmond. Teams like St. Joes etc have success but not the support/money.
That's kind of my point and why we probably stay put. If the remnants aren't any worse, perhaps just lateral, and with the uncertainty of the rest of the AAC members, I think it's probably prudent to stay put in the A10 - for now. It might be better, certainly appears to be, for a couple of years. But the shuffle could leave us scrambling for whatever the best offer is THEN. It's easy to say we could always just crawl back to the A10, but is that really the kind of message we want to send? UD's principals and commitment is above that, as one who is constantly looking for the prettier girl. When/IF UD makes a move, it will be for something that appears to be longer term, with similar institutions who share the same commitment.

I don't share the same opinion or perspective as OSU Flyer re: the AAC and football. I think there's imminent football shuffling in the next 2 to 3 years, regardless of the Big 12's snub at any of these football programs. And any shuffling related to football is likely to include ripple effects within the AAC. It's not like their football programs consist of the annual ugly ducklings. They have programs that have both historically and recently been extremely competitive with Top 25 teams. Cincy, UConn, Memphis, Houston ALL have had respectable success.
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:43 PM
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If they aren't headed to the Big 12, where do you think they're headed?
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
If they aren't headed to the Big 12, where do you think they're headed?
Fair question. And the Big 12 is the most logical answer. The answer consists of "I really don't know, exactly. But it probably includes some illogical destinations." You have so many schools, even within the Power 5, that are always evaluating. Who would have ever thought of West Virginia in the Big 12, with ALL Midwest programs. How long does the B10 keep Rutgers? Who knows what happens with Mountain West schools and their desire to improve their conference?

I can't tell you where exactly they could/would end up. What I can tell you is that everyone of those AD's is actively pursuing a new and better home for their football programs and that some reshuffling in the near future is likely.
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Old 03-05-2018, 06:45 PM
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I realize some of those football schools are looking elsewhere, but the question is where??? If UConn and UC would leave, a couple of good additions would keep the AAC better than the A-10. If they don't leave, the AAC would be great. I don't see any of the other football schools leaving. There is nowhere to go.

But let's say several of the other football schools leave and the conference basically falls apart (which is doubtful). With a nucleus of Wichita State, VCU, and UD I don't think we would have any problem attracting some of the best "mid-majors" around. Some on here have even said UD should get some good mid-majors and start a new conference. This would be the perfect way to do that. Maybe we would end up with a conference similar to the A-10 but without the bottom feeders, which would make it better than what we have now. The Big East basketball schools weren't hurt one bit when the Big East broke up.
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I realize some of those football schools are looking elsewhere, but the question is where??? If UConn and UC would leave, a couple of good additions would keep the AAC better than the A-10. If they don't leave, the AAC would be great. I don't see any of the other football schools leaving. There is nowhere to go.

But let's say several of the other football schools leave and the conference basically falls apart (which is doubtful). With a nucleus of Wichita State, VCU, and UD I don't think we would have any problem attracting some of the best "mid-majors" around. Some on here have even said UD should get some good mid-majors and start a new conference. This would be the perfect way to do that. Maybe we would end up with a conference similar to the A-10 but without the bottom feeders, which would make it better than what we have now. The Big East basketball schools weren't hurt one bit when the Big East broke up.
Really, the ACC could then raid the A10 for some of the better programs like Bonnie, RI, Richmond and Davidson, and leave the bottom feeders to sulk in their misery.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:44 PM
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There is another school in Chi town that has turned their program around;Loyola Chicago and they would jump to the Big East if asked in a heart beat. They are also Jbees.

Another point the two FL Schools USF AND UCF are top football schools that the B12 might just invite; also good recruiting area for football and not bad for basketball.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:55 AM
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Big East basketball commissioner: We're open to expansion but 'nothing on the horizon'

The Big East has faced numerous expansion rumors this season but Ackerman told The Enquirer Saturday "there’s nothing on the horizon” for the league in terms of expansion and that she was pleased with the league's current structure.

“We’re open to it (expansion) if we can find the right school or schools. There’s no need in our minds right now, at least near-term,” Ackerman said. “The 10 schools have been a very cohesive group. We’re getting done what we’re trying to get done in terms of basketball relevance.

“If there were schools out there that fit the bill...we would be open to it but right now we’re sort of standing pat at 10."

Any new member would have to add significant brand-building value to the league, Ackerman said, and geography, too, is another consideration.
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  #546  
Old 03-08-2018, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
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Yes, I agree, it seems pretty clear that the BE will expand if the candidate is attractive enough.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:48 AM
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"Any new member would have to add significant brand-building value to the league, Ackerman said, and geography, too, is another consideration."

Not sure what he means by geography, but I suspect he means a major metro area with lots of eyeballs and media exposure. Brand building, I am guessing he means a known school with a history of winning.

We meet those two in our own minds, but do we meet them in the minds of the current member teams?
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:08 AM
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Ackerman speaks like the NCAAT committee. They spout out a bunch of criteria but will just do what they want to do when they want to do it. If we are not good enough now, we will never be good enough.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
"Any new member would have to add significant brand-building value to the league, Ackerman said, and geography, too, is another consideration."

Not sure what he means by geography, but I suspect he means a major metro area with lots of eyeballs and media exposure. Brand building, I am guessing he means a known school with a history of winning.

We meet those two in our own minds, but do we meet them in the minds of the current member teams?
Words like brand building, eyeballs, media exposure all translate into money. Will the Fox TV deal bring in significantly more money per school after an addition? The current Fox deal amounts to $4-$5 million for each school. They are not going to add one or two schools to increase that figure by $250K per school, let's say....$750K might do it.

There are intangibles that we might not appreciate it, e.g., the network has its own needs....they need to fill time slots. If that were to become a problem for Fox they might put the screws to the BE indicating the value of their present deal is in jeopardy unless schools are added. In that case just maintaining what they now have could be incentive enough for the BE to add schools.

Suppose something like that happens and Fox pretty much leaves it up to BE to decide which two schools to add. At that point a school's reputation and overall cache come into play. The UD men are coming off a four year NCAA run. This year is a transition year. But we've got to get back on the NCAA track to sustain consistency PDQ. Likewise for the woman's BB program. UD has to be very attractive across the board...academics, facilities, a successful broad based athletics program....the whole package led by a widely recognized top-tier men's BB program. A tall order, indeed....and frankly, unlikely to happen.

Seems to me our best bet continues to be a strong(er) A10 that year-in and year-out is at least a three-bid league. and competitive with the BE. Why can't we do that? Neil understands aspects of that challenge that we do not. If there is one thing I would like to have Chris gain from his frequent interactions with Neil it is insight as to what makes the A10 "tick".... and what factors limit improvement, why can't bottom-feeders be given an ultimatum to invest in their programs, etc?

What we can learn from the American is this. While Power 5 FB drives the bus and a half dozen or so AAC schools would give anything to join a Power 5 conference, the conference and its schools are realistic. They refer to their conference as a "Power 6" and even have a logo to that effect. Most important, the AAC schools are investing and are succeeding. Three AAC schools finished in the FB Top 25 this year and emphasis is placed on strengthening BB, men's and women's.

I see no fundamental reason why the A10 cannot follow a similar approach. Invest to improve and win. To do so will require leadership. The A10 has a commissioner and a good commissioner matters. But that person is employed by the schools and responds to their needs/wants. Leadership has to come fro the top-tier A10 schools.
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
"Any new member would have to add significant brand-building value to the league, Ackerman said, and geography, too, is another consideration."

Not sure what he means by geography, but I suspect he means a major metro area with lots of eyeballs and media exposure. Brand building, I am guessing he means a known school with a history of winning.

We meet those two in our own minds, but do we meet them in the minds of the current member teams?
I read geography as Gonzaga
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Old 03-10-2018, 07:45 AM
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Spoke to a person who knows and he told me that UD would definitely consider the AAC if UD was certain that UConn was there for the long term. That UConn was the key. He stated that UD was not particularly happy with the lack of bigger time programs in the A-10: with the over time exodus of Virginia Tech, Temple, Xavier, and Butler - and the collapse of programs like UMass.

Finally, he insinuated the leash is not a long one with coaching. All I can say is that he knows.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Spoke to a person who knows and he told me that UD would definitely consider the AAC if UD was certain that UConn was there for the long term. That UConn was the key. He stated that UD was not particularly happy with the lack of bigger time programs in the A-10: with the over time exodus of Virginia Tech, Temple, Xavier, and Butler - and the collapse of programs like UMass.

Finally, he insinuated the leash is not a long one with coaching. All I can say is that he knows.
There are no guarantees with UConn. Our own University of Dayton played dirty by helping bring in LaSalle and Duquesne into the MCC/Horizon after Marquette and St. Louis defected to the Great Midwest. Just a year later, we bolt for the Great Midwest ourselves. Duquesne was so upset that they left the conference after just one year and returned to the A10.
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Finally, he insinuated the leash is not a long one with coaching. All I can say is that he knows.
https://youtu.be/PNuPajn_ezg
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Spoke to a person who knows and he told me that UD would definitely consider the AAC if UD was certain that UConn was there for the long term. That UConn was the key. He stated that UD was not particularly happy with the lack of bigger time programs in the A-10: with the over time exodus of Virginia Tech, Temple, Xavier, and Butler - and the collapse of programs like UMass.

Finally, he insinuated the leash is not a long one with coaching. All I can say is that he knows.

You had me until the end. Unless your guy is Neil Sullivan or Eric Spina im not buying it. Not sure why UConn is "key". Calhoun is gone, that team and program now suck. It's only going to get worse for UConn.

Anthony Grant is the man and there are dozens and dozens of people on this board i can't wait to see slobbering all over him in the next couple years.

AD: Coach, you only have your one recruit, two of Arthur Mueller's holdovers quit on the team and the hands down best Senior class in history graduated. Your leash is NOT a long one.

Nothing personal man but check your golfing buddies BAC next time.
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
You had me until the end. Unless your guy is Neil Sullivan or Eric Spina im not buying it. Not sure why UConn is "key". Calhoun is gone, that team and program now suck. It's only going to get worse for UConn.

Anthony Grant is the man and there are dozens and dozens of people on this board i can't wait to see slobbering all over him in the next couple years.

AD: Coach, you only have your one recruit, two of Arthur Mueller's holdovers quit on the team and the hands down best Senior class in history graduated. Your leash is NOT a long one.

Nothing personal man but check your golfing buddies BAC next time.
No, no, no and more no...he is referring to the women's program as in UConn is the key for the move

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Old 03-10-2018, 09:29 AM
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So Geno Auriemma's leash isn't long?

If it's a women's basketball reference why isn't it in the women's basketball thread? Threads have been closed for less. My knowledge is less then vast on Conference finances but Football drives the bus in the AAC, mens basketball with the quality of some of it's programs isn't far behind. UConn is one of the maybe half dozen women's programs that bring in more then they cost i bet. Nobody anywhere is moving conferences dependent on one programs women's basketball team.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:16 AM
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UConn has the most mens bball prestige, for lack of a better word, in the AAC. In that respect they kind of are the key. Their prescence gives the AAC a more high end feel at least in my opinion. If UConn leaves UC is probably next out the door and the rest of the teams are probably evaluating their options. Should UD jump to AAC and UConn leave, we'd be left in a conference with where we don't fit great, with bball resembling the A10. If UConn stays, different story, imo.

AG on a short leash...he gets 4 years to show what he can do with his own recruits, just like any other coach would/Should. If that's a short leash, then yeah I guess he's on one.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:24 AM
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Well...Kevin Ollie just got fired at UConn. His leash just turned into a noose. Winning a national title only buys you so much time I guess.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jumpin' joe View Post
Well...Kevin Ollie just got fired at UConn. His leash just turned into a noose. Winning a national title only buys you so much time I guess.
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Stuff just got real.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jumpin' joe View Post
Well...Kevin Ollie just got fired at UConn. His leash just turned into a noose. Winning a national title only buys you so much time I guess.
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Apparently, the over/under on “so much time” is 4 years. No debating, though, that the program has been on the decline since UConn won it all in 2014. 1 NCAA, 1 NIT and 2 “nowheres”. That would be tough for the Flyer Faithful to stomach, let alone a program with multiple NCAA championships.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jumpin' joe View Post
Well...Kevin Ollie just got fired at UConn. His leash just turned into a noose. Winning a national title only buys you so much time I guess.
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And I read that UConn is "eyeing Danny Hurley." I would think that Hurley would be high on anyone's list.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill McPeek View Post
And I read that UConn is "eyeing Danny Hurley." I would think that Hurley would be high on anyone's list.
Yeah, Rhody fans should be as nervous now as we were last year when the IU job became available. Successful coach in a mid-major conference. Major program just down the road that has fallen on hard times recently. Yep, this looks like the sequel to “When Archie met Indy”.
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
You had me until the end. Unless your guy is Neil Sullivan or Eric Spina im not buying it. Not sure why UConn is "key". Calhoun is gone, that team and program now suck. It's only going to get worse for UConn.

Anthony Grant is the man and there are dozens and dozens of people on this board i can't wait to see slobbering all over him in the next couple years.

AD: Coach, you only have your one recruit, two of Arthur Mueller's holdovers quit on the team and the hands down best Senior class in history graduated. Your leash is NOT a long one.

Nothing personal man but check your golfing buddies BAC next time.
Recruiting isn't this issue right now. It is the lack of intensity and lack of wins. AG makes a lot of money at UD. He has EVERY advantage in the A-10 - there is no comparable programs. UD understands that the program has to be successful. The $72 million renovation. The changing landscape of college athletics. The conference shuffle. This next year is vital for both UD and AG.
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:12 PM
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What a Rube Conference

The semi final game for the A-10 conference is bumped because the MAC Women's tournament game runs long. Give me a break. CBSSC what are you doing?
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill McPeek View Post
And I read that UConn is "eyeing Danny Hurley." I would think that Hurley would be high on anyone's list.
Geno would be their best hire for the men's program.
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:30 PM
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I fear this season will be the norm for the A-10, I just noticed we have dropped to #11 in conference RPI, even behind the MAC!
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
I fear this season will be the norm for the A-10, I just noticed we have dropped to #11 in conference RPI, even behind the MAC!
OUCH!

Of course, when your conference includes some programs that don’t make men’s basketball an institutional priority investment-wise, well, you reap what you sow.
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
I fear this season will be the norm for the A-10, I just noticed we have dropped to #11 in conference RPI, even behind the MAC!
We're behind the 1 bid Missouri Valley too. The A10 is closer to the WAC than it is the American
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Old 03-10-2018, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
We're behind the 1 bid Missouri Valley too. The A10 is closer to the WAC than it is the American
If you want to look at the RPI ratings, we are .337 points behind the AAC. So in terms of decimal points and numbers, we are closer to falling into 23rd place behind way too many Summit, Big Sky, and Sun Belt conferences.

Compared to the Big East, we are .679 points behind in RPI, which means we are closer to 30th place than 2nd. Still trying to figure out the logic of many a few years ago who argued the A-10 was going to be stronger long term than the Big East. I was even called some not so nice names during that debate.

Something has to change during the next round of conference shake ups which will probably be initiated by the Big 12, the ship the Flyers is on is sinking.............
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Old 03-10-2018, 02:24 PM
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Look at where the AAC is right now. 3 bid league with UC & Wichita getting high seeds. If SMU & UCF don't get racked with injuries that might have been a 4 bid league this year. This is with Memphis and UConn being down.

If UConn gets back on track this league could really distance itself from the rest of the non P5/BE conferences.

I realize the AAC isn't the ideal conference for Dayton but I think they'd be a homerun if they take us. The difference between the number of schools with a significant commitment to basketball between them and the A10 is staggering.
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Old 03-10-2018, 05:56 PM
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A lot of us that said we should be interested in the AAC were ridiculed on this board. I get it, there's uncertainty depending on UConn, UC, etc., but the truth is, the A10 is a dead-end league and the NBE is not calling.
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Old 03-10-2018, 06:18 PM
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Dead end is right. It's only down from here in the A10

Here's the other to thing consider. UMass could leave the A10 for a league for their football program at some point. There really aren't any attractive expansion options for the A10 anymore. Who's to the say the league leadership doesn't sit pat at 13 and gambles wrong adding another Fordham/LaSalle.

If the AAC wants to expand by two teams and you don't take that deal you could lose VCU and maybe a team like St Louis if they get back on track. How does the A10 look down VCU?

Phil Martelli isn't going to coach forever, it's not inconceivable they end up middling program after he's gone. What happens to Davidson after McKillop leaves? On the open market I don't think either of those are particularly attractive jobs.

It's a risk going to the AAC but I don't think the anti-AAC folks acknowledge the risk of staying in the A10.
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  #573  
Old 03-10-2018, 06:36 PM
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Let UC and UConn leave the AAC

Add UD, VCU, ST. L, and RI. Two division, 7 teams in each.

Home and home in your division, and one game with each team in the other division for total of 19 conference games per year. We would be in the East along with Temple, RI, VCU, ECU, and both Florida schools.

Your welcome in advance for solving all the problems in the basketball world

Edit- If you think a round number of conference games needed, make it 20 games and each year 1 plays 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc in a home and home crossover series, based on previous years finish.

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  #574  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:33 PM
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Basketball Budgets AAC vs A10

12) University of Memphis 11,226,419
17) University of Connecticut 9,516,308
43) University of Cincinnati-Main Campus 7,421,986
53) Southern Methodist University 7,086,547
56) Wichita State University 6,920,933
70) University of Tulsa 6,174,244
76) University of Houston 6,023,125
78) Temple University 5,920,903
92) University of South Florida-Main Campus 4,711,026
102) Tulane University of Louisiana 3,987,379
119) East Carolina University 3,187,963
120) University of Central Florida 3,166,282

63) Saint Louis University 6,414,061
82) Virginia Commonwealth University 5,676,415
89) University of Dayton 5,000,454
90) University of Richmond 4,849,596
94) University of Rhode Island 4,286,329
96) Duquesne University 4,229,922
97) Saint Joseph's University 4,208,092
100) Fordham University 4,126,729
101) University of Massachusetts-Amherst 4,064,482
116) George Mason University 3,342,681
128) La Salle University 2,946,555
129) St Bonaventure University 2,917,071
130) George Washington University 2,915,197
137) Davidson College 2,799,370
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Spoke to a person who knows and he told me that UD would definitely consider the AAC if UD was certain that UConn was there for the long term. That UConn was the key. He stated that UD was not particularly happy with the lack of bigger time programs in the A-10: with the over time exodus of Virginia Tech, Temple, Xavier, and Butler - and the collapse of programs like UMass.

Finally, he insinuated the leash is not a long one with coaching. All I can say is that he knows.
With or without Connecticut, the AAC is head and shoulders above the A10 and will be for the foreseeable future.
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by UD_Earl View Post
Spoke to a person who knows and he told me that UD would definitely consider the AAC if UD was certain that UConn was there for the long term. That UConn was the key. He stated that UD was not particularly happy with the lack of bigger time programs in the A-10: with the over time exodus of Virginia Tech, Temple, Xavier, and Butler - and the collapse of programs like UMass.

Finally, he insinuated the leash is not a long one with coaching. All I can say is that he knows.
Not sure how to react , but I have a honest question. Does anyone know if the AAC is even interested in us? Is this scenario only in our minds to the point we're gonna be jilted by 2 leagues?
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:31 PM
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According to several sources throughout the league, the American Athletic Conference is looking for a way to upgrade its rankings in basketball with an expansion blueprint focused primarily on Wichita State, but also including other higher profile basketball schools such as Dayton and Virginia Commonwealth.

offiicials at some member schools, including UConn, felt that the American needed to increase its basketball profile. Talks about adding affiliated members in basketball, but not football, continued, reportedly with discussions taking place at the Presidential level.

https://tmgcollegesports.com/2017/03...upgrade-hoops/
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
According to several sources throughout the league, the American Athletic Conference is looking for a way to upgrade its rankings in basketball with an expansion blueprint focused primarily on Wichita State, but also including other higher profile basketball schools such as Dayton and Virginia Commonwealth.

offiicials at some member schools, including UConn, felt that the American needed to increase its basketball profile. Talks about adding affiliated members in basketball, but not football, continued, reportedly with discussions taking place at the Presidential level.

https://tmgcollegesports.com/2017/03...upgrade-hoops/
What about Cincinnati? Do they hold veto power?
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:32 PM
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It takes some chutzpah to look other A10 members in the face and tell them "we're now too good for you" when we've won 1 conference tourney title in 23 seasons -- on our home court no less.

The A10 has never once been an impediment to UD basketball making the NCAA tournament. Every time Dayton has fallen short, it was Dayton getting in the way of Dayton. The West Coast Conference has never once held Gonzaga back either.

Every communication Ive ever heard from UD is there is no interest in the AAC. That league is combustible and its a matter of when, not if, it becomes something vastly different than it currently is. Too many unknowns. Unless your ship is sinking -- and the A10 isnt -- you dont take radical chances. This the worst A10 in probably a decade and its still going to end up a multi-bid league -- maybe even 3 teams. All season all we heard was Juan Bid.

We could get three teams in despite UD and VCU being garbage this year. Sloo -- with the most resources -- is on the uptick again. Remarkable. Were UD/VCU any good, it would be a 4-5 bid season and nobody would be tossing the bad fruit.

Wichita, Houston, UC are getting in the NCAAs. Thats it. Could be the same number as the A10 if Davison beats Rhody which is very possible. UConn, Memphis, SMU were all down this year just like UD and VCU and Saint Louis are down.

Leagues dont get bids, teams do. I also dont believe UD wants their WBB program in any league with UConn WBB because it will forever take a conference championship off the table. Thats just the reality. There is merit and satisfaction to winning a league. If the only way to get better was to be in the same league as UConn it would be another story. But thats not the narrow choice. DePaul WBB being in the same league as UConn WBB was marginally any benefit to them when they shared room in the Big East. At least now DePaul can once again play for a conference title again. And, UConn hates the AAC anyway. Its a constant embarrassment for them. So you lose UConn MBB if that's your jam.

Lets not even get into travel, missed class time, costs, etc. Our Olympic sports can bus to most games. You can't bus to Texas or Kansas. Logistically its a nightmare especially if you have no travel partner. Maybe that would be Cincinnati for us, but we've already established that UC doesn't even want to be in the AAC and is splitsville as soon as the door cracks.

You dont make a conference move at this point unless its a long-term 20-year decision thats a home run. And, you dont want to be in a league with D-I football money anyway. The optics are bad, the financial inequality is bad, the fit is bad.
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  #580  
Old 03-10-2018, 11:18 PM
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Let's say everything you posted is true. The admin looks at the AAC and says it's too unstable, travel is too much and it's not worth the risk.

SMU was decimated by injuries this year or they would have made the field. The AAC is a 3 bid league this year with UConn tanking and Memphis rebuilding. What happens if UConn and Memphis getting it rolling again? That's the 7th best conference in America if not higher every year.

Teams get bids not leagues but leagues make it much easier to get bids. Look at the difficulty of schools outside the major conferences being to come up with a schedule to get an at large bid in OOC play. Your league doesn't hold up it's end of the bargain and you're held hostage by your league. Look at Middle Tennessee State this year.

Do you want to be in a multi bid league playing a high level of basketball? I don't think the future is as bright in the A10 and college basketball is filled with old multi bid leagues were I'm sure they thought everything was fine there too.

Look at the winds of change in college basketball and the consolidation of bids/power into a few leagues. Being the richest guy in the graveyard doesn't do you any good.

Gonzaga with this Mountain West talk and flirtations with the Big East has pretty clearly decided the WCC is bad for business. I don't think they'd be sorry going to the Mountain West and I don't think Gregg Marshall is sorry he's in the AAC. Football isn't ideal but it's better than being left behind to drift into irrelevance.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:39 PM
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How about an A10-AAC mid season challenge, and pair the better teams in each conference against each other. It would give teams in both conferences opportunities to improve their strength of schedule, and half the teams would get resume wins. If the Big 5 teams go to 20 game conference schedules, we need to think out of the box to keep at large chances alive.
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Old 03-10-2018, 11:45 PM
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What about Saint Mary’s?

The Gaels are regulars in the NCAA Tournament, but – rightly or wrongly – they are viewed as more of a coach with a pipeline to Australia’s youth national team than a sustainable program. Randy Bennett will leave one day for a bigger job, perhaps this spring. And what then? Saint Mary’s has a 40-year-old, 3,500-seat gym, a modest athletic budget and commands little media attention in the Bay Area.
You can say the same thing about Davidson and St. Joes. Phil and McKillop are close to the end. College of Charleston was a good program under John Kreese in the 90s. Where do those programs go when those guys leave?

Gonzaga athletic director Mike Roth keeps saying he is always surveying the college sports landscape and this is just part of that, nothing more. And Thompson characterized the talks as “exploratory.”

That might be a matter of semantics. One source said they are so far along that Mountain West presidents hoped to vote on Gonzaga’s inclusion as early as this week when they meet at the conference basketball tournament in Las Vegas. It has since been pushed back until early April, after the Final Four.


Why does Gonzaga want to move?

“I want people to remember,” Roth said last week, “we’ve had a lot of success being members of the West Coast Conference.”

And they have, reaching the NCAA Tournament 20 straight years, including a pair of Elite Eights and a Final Four.

But the landscape, to use his word, has changed significantly in recent years. The power conferences are all moving toward 20-game conference schedules, which leaves teams with nine or 10 nonconference dates. Subtract a holiday tournament and home “buy” games against lesser teams, and you’re left with one or two dates – which the big boys increasingly are not playing against quality mid-major opponents, especially not on the road.

The old mid-major formula of loading up with power conference opponents in November and December is becoming harder and harder to execute, and then the weak teams in your league drag down your computer metrics in January and February.

The result in March: Fewer NCAA at-large berths for mid-majors, and worse seeds for the ones are lucky enough to get in.

The solution is to create mid-major “power” conferences like the Big East and AAC, offering more qualifying in-house games. A few years ago, Few quietly proposed a national conference of mid-majors, with six schools on each coast. That hasn’t materialized. The next best option is forming one in the Mountain West with established programs like SDSU, UNLV and New Mexico.
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Old 03-11-2018, 09:57 AM
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The AAC would put several marquee games on the schedule each year. Even in a down year, UConn at the arena would be a really big deal. Wichita st, UC, Memphis, Temple, SMU are all teams we'd love to play in a H/H and can't get scheduled. The AAC makes for a more fun schedule and just feels more big time to me. I'd also assume someone else from the A10 would jump too, further strengthening the AAC and weakening the A10. All good times until it falls apart, which is a fair point because it's entirely possible in the short to medium term. It's just a risk I'd be willing to explore.

The A10 isn't terrible, and there are lots of other worse places to be. Top quarter of the conference are truly peer bball schools imo. But it's got some serious dead weight pulling it down. Going to tiny, crappy gyms doesn't help anything.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
It takes some chutzpah to look other A10 members in the face and tell them "we're now too good for you" when we've won 1 conference tourney title in 23 seasons -- on our home court no less.

The A10 has never once been an impediment to UD basketball making the NCAA tournament. Every time Dayton has fallen short, it was Dayton getting in the way of Dayton. The West Coast Conference has never once held Gonzaga back either.

Every communication Ive ever heard from UD is there is no interest in the AAC. That league is combustible and its a matter of when, not if, it becomes something vastly different than it currently is. Too many unknowns. Unless your ship is sinking -- and the A10 isnt -- you dont take radical chances. This the worst A10 in probably a decade and its still going to end up a multi-bid league -- maybe even 3 teams. All season all we heard was Juan Bid.

We could get three teams in despite UD and VCU being garbage this year. Sloo -- with the most resources -- is on the uptick again. Remarkable. Were UD/VCU any good, it would be a 4-5 bid season and nobody would be tossing the bad fruit.

Wichita, Houston, UC are getting in the NCAAs. Thats it. Could be the same number as the A10 if Davison beats Rhody which is very possible. UConn, Memphis, SMU were all down this year just like UD and VCU and Saint Louis are down.

Leagues dont get bids, teams do. I also dont believe UD wants their WBB program in any league with UConn WBB because it will forever take a conference championship off the table. Thats just the reality. There is merit and satisfaction to winning a league. If the only way to get better was to be in the same league as UConn it would be another story. But thats not the narrow choice. DePaul WBB being in the same league as UConn WBB was marginally any benefit to them when they shared room in the Big East. At least now DePaul can once again play for a conference title again. And, UConn hates the AAC anyway. Its a constant embarrassment for them. So you lose UConn MBB if that's your jam.

Lets not even get into travel, missed class time, costs, etc. Our Olympic sports can bus to most games. You can't bus to Texas or Kansas. Logistically its a nightmare especially if you have no travel partner. Maybe that would be Cincinnati for us, but we've already established that UC doesn't even want to be in the AAC and is splitsville as soon as the door cracks.

You dont make a conference move at this point unless its a long-term 20-year decision thats a home run. And, you dont want to be in a league with D-I football money anyway. The optics are bad, the financial inequality is bad, the fit is bad.
Thank you, thank you, thank you our proverbial voice of reason (IMO). I posted the below two comments last week and was waiting to hear from some others who would support that line of thinking. You've added greater detail and supporting data.

The AAC may very well be intriguing, but it does come with a huge risk. The AAC consists of ALL the Big Time Football Wanna Be's - all of whom would jump at the invite to go to a Power 5 football conference. And it's not a matter IF, but rather WHEN, there is any kind of conference shuffle, the AAC will have members that are a part of it - with likely programs of Cincy, Houston, Memphis, UConn, SMU being the ones to jump or draw outside interest. They also happen to be the programs that have had the most success on the basketball court too.

Jumping to the AAC could pose a risk that when that reshuffle happens, we're holding our d!cks in the wind.



That's kind of my point and why we probably stay put. If the remnants aren't any worse, perhaps just lateral, and with the uncertainty of the rest of the AAC members, I think it's probably prudent to stay put in the A10 - for now. It might be better, certainly appears to be, for a couple of years. But the shuffle could leave us scrambling for whatever the best offer is THEN. It's easy to say we could always just crawl back to the A10, but is that really the kind of message we want to send? UD's principals and commitment is above that, as one who is constantly looking for the prettier girl. When/IF UD makes a move, it will be for something that appears to be longer term, with similar institutions who share the same commitment.

I don't share the same opinion or perspective as OSU Flyer re: the AAC and football. I think there's imminent football shuffling in the next 2 to 3 years, regardless of the Big 12's snub at any of these football programs. And any shuffling related to football is likely to include ripple effects within the AAC. It's not like their football programs consist of the annual ugly ducklings. They have programs that have both historically and recently been extremely competitive with Top 25 teams. Cincy, UConn, Memphis, Houston ALL have had respectable success.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:34 AM
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Most of the criticism I hear is about the A10 having a few schools that have HS gyms and give no priority to winning basketball. Secondly, it is harder to recruit kids to a lesser perceived league and from areas away from the leagues small geographic footprint. Thirdly, and the biggest reason, the scheduling conditions have changed.

I am a huge fan of the women's BB program, but I could care less about winning the A10, when we all complain about the weak competition. UConn will pick us up in the talent we recruit.

To judge the quality of the UD men's program by the results this year is not fair, when we have been competitive on a national level for the last 4. One could argue that the results this year were caused by the weakness of our conference. Would we have lost two recruits to the PAC12? Would Archie have left? Would we have taken the likes of Pierce, Miller and Svoboda.
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  #586  
Old 03-11-2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
To judge the quality of the UD men's program by the results this year is not fair, when we have been competitive on a national level for the last 4. One could argue that the results this year were caused by the weakness of our conference. Would we have lost two recruits to the PAC12? Would Archie have left? Would we have taken the likes of Pierce, Miller and Svoboda.
You could make that argument, but you'd certainly be in the minority and would ultimately lose that argument.

P5 schools lose kids ALL the time when the coach leaves. So yes, we would have probably still lost 2 recruits.

YES, Archie would still have left.

Pierce, Miller and Svoboda? Who knows, but the first year of recruiting for a new coach is always going to be tough, since he's working hard to try and keep what was committed, yet still find decent resources that late to fill in for those that do leave.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by frisco flyer View Post
How about an A10-AAC mid season challenge, and pair the better teams in each conference against each other. It would give teams in both conferences opportunities to improve their strength of schedule, and half the teams would get resume wins. If the Big 5 teams go to 20 game conference schedules, we need to think out of the box to keep at large chances alive.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
You could make that argument, but you'd certainly be in the minority and would ultimately lose that argument.

P5 schools lose kids ALL the time when the coach leaves. So yes, we would have probably still lost 2 recruits.

YES, Archie would still have left.

Pierce, Miller and Svoboda? Who knows, but the first year of recruiting for a new coach is always going to be tough, since he's working hard to try and keep what was committed, yet still find decent resources that late to fill in for those that do leave.
I might be in the minority, but explain to me how we are both speculating on an unknown, so how would either one of us lose that argument.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:57 AM
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Few quietly proposed a national conference of mid-majors, with six schools on each coast. That hasn’t materialized.
Shame this hasn’t gained traction. I agree that the landscape is moving beneath our feet. If we can’t crack the Jezzy club, we’d better partner up with some of the better remaining basketball schools out there. In five years, I believe we’ll either be in a conference with VCU and SLU, or be in an A-10 without those two programs.
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Old 03-11-2018, 12:00 PM
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When is enough, enough when it comes to Fordham,LaSalle etc.? SBU and St.Joe's play in bandboxes too they just have the Coaches that can overcome. Does the AAC have a team that play's in an arena built in the 1920's that makes DIII high school gyms look huge? How many AAC schools have a smell of Chlorine in the "arena" due to the nearby pool? This stuff is constantly fluid i don't want UD to be left behind. A-10 has a small-time feel to it and its only going to get worse. Any school worth their salt in the A-10, UD,Richmond,VCU,St.L should be jumping to get out. Id be very disappointed if the University turned down this opportunity.
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Old 03-11-2018, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
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We can't, thats the day we are saving for the Gem City Jam when it finally materializes.
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Old 03-11-2018, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
I might be in the minority, but explain to me how we are both speculating on an unknown, so how would either one of us lose that argument.
I think I did explain - it happens regardless of conference - Power 5 or "mid-major".
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Old 03-11-2018, 12:23 PM
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No luck finding this myself and out of time

But would love to see the statistics since X, Butler, and Temple all left the A-10, or maybe since the creation of the New Big East.

1. RPI trends- year by year per conference

2. How many times has the 4th best A-10 team had an RPI of 132, or more importantly the number of A-10 teams in the top 100 per year.

UD needs to be proactive and jump ship first good chance we get, as I would be willing to bet our peers (defined as dedicated to good basketball program with NCAA division 1 caliber arenas) in the league will not hesitate to leave if asked to move up, which will happen.

The ship may not be sinking like I said in an earlier post, but we have blown both motors leaving us stranded in the middle of the lake and the bilge pump is struggling to keep up as we are taking on water. Worse part is, we are almost out of beer on the boat too!
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Old 03-11-2018, 12:31 PM
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It takes some chutzpah to look other A10 members in the face and tell them "we're now too good for you" when we've won 1 conference tourney title in 23 seasons -- on our home court no less.

The A10 has never once been an impediment to UD basketball making the NCAA tournament. Every time Dayton has fallen short, it was Dayton getting in the way of Dayton.
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Those 3 sentences say it all - we need to "Make UD Great Again" before we start looking at grass that may or may not be greener than our own.

Thanks again Chris R for that no-nonsense reminder.
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Old 03-11-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
And, you dont want to be in a league with D-I football money anyway. The optics are bad, the financial inequality is bad, the fit is bad.
Gonzaga is going do just that with the encouragement of Mark Few.

Just me but with what Gonzaga has done since 1999, I'd say their athletic department and Mark Few know what they're doing.

Wichita did just that and isn't looking back.

I think I'd trust the judgement of the programs that have been there and done that
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
What about Cincinnati? Do they hold veto power?
No veto power and there's reasonable evidence to assume they would want us
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Gonzaga is going do just that with the encouragement of Mark Few.

Just me but with what Gonzaga has done since 1999, I'd say their athletic department and Mark Few know what they're doing.

Wichita did just that and isn't looking back.

I think I'd trust the judgement of the programs that have been there and done that
Agree completely. We should emulate: Don't move leagues until you make many NCAA runs and/or a Final Four.
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:12 PM
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Has any program in the history of the NCAA been sorry they moved up a conference?
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:18 PM
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Uhhhhh, yes. Dayton screwed the pooch when it moved to the Great Midwest with a guy named Jim O’ Brien at the helm.
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
Uhhhhh, yes. Dayton screwed the pooch when it moved to the Great Midwest with a guy named Jim O’ Brien at the helm.
Still the right move. They wouldn't have won in the MCC either. Changed nothing about the future trajectory of Dayton

If it worked out Dayton would have gone to CUSA
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