Fairgrounds Moving?

[longtimefan]

There was just a report on Channel 2 that the Montgomery County Fairgrounds may be moving to a location up near I-70, around National Road or near Brookville. I wonder how this fits in with the rumor that UD was looking to build a new arena on that site. The plot thickens.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by longtimefan There was just a report on Channel 2 that the Montgomery County Fairgrounds may be moving to a location up near I-70, around National Road or near Brookville. I wonder how this fits in with the rumor that UD was looking to build a new arena on that site. The plot thickens.

Wow! That is news. Keep an eye on Dr. Dan.

[NorthwestFlyer]

Wow, this would be a much better location if a new arena is in the works. Closer (or would it be continuous) with campus, with better access to 35 and 48, and an easy scoot across the Stewart Street bridge to get to I-75, that should help with the traffic situation.

[jumpin' joe]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer Wow! That is news. Keep an eye on Dr. Dan.

Keep on eye on Miami Valley Hospital too.

[The Gem]

There has been talk about this in the past. It would make sense. The university and/or MVH could develop that land and the fairgrounds could move out to the rural part of the county which would be more convenient for the farmers.

[bobber]

I have to admit I never got it.

Why have the county fairgrounds in the middle of town? County fairs are a lot of things, but mainly they are skewed heavily to the agricultural side of life and business. The current site just doesn't seem at all appropriate.

[Chris R]

An Arena at the Fairgrounds would be a traffic apocalypse. I couldnt even fathom SR48 and Stewart St intersection. UD Arena is one of the easiest facilities in the country to get in and out of. Its not perfect, but its mostly in a class of its own compared to most urban facility calamities.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by jumpin' joe Keep on eye on Miami Valley Hospital too.

If the Fairgrounds becomes available, joint development of some sort by the Ed-Med complex makes sense.....with UD using the south end and MVH the north end.

However, I do not believe that UD will invest in a new BB facility....we have one that is just fine. What we don't have is a good place for WLAX and/or FB closer to campus. The south end of the Fairgrounds could solve that problem.

But, what about the Channel 2 report that longtimefan first reported on? By the evening news and in tomorrow's DDN there should be more information.

Can't wait.

[UACFlyer]

FYI....

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/m...side-of-dayton

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Here is the link

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/m...e#.UfcfjhDD9D8

This is not something that has not been discussed for a long time. Local media reported a decade or so ago that the county was looking to buy land on the west side of the county for a new fairgrounds. My hunch is either UD and / or MVH has gotten involved and would like to see the county speed things up.

Just within the past year water lines have been extended by the county to the area around 49 and 40, and a major extension of the sewer lines, running directly past this location on north to Phillipsburg is schedule to start soon, this fall I believe.

[ud69]

I don't see an athletic facility there. That land is too valuable.

If I am a city planner, I would want hi-tech industry that is compatible with the GE facility. Boeing? Airbus?

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by ud69 I don't see an athletic facility there. That land is too valuable. If I am a city planner, I would want hi-tech industry that is compatible with the GE facility.

If I am a city planner, I bend over backwards to continue to kiss the behinds of both UD and MVH as they have to be the two largest employers in the city now, and have invested and improoved facilities as much if not more than any other two entities within the city in the last decade, right? Plenty of other options for hi-tech industry, some of which being developed on the east side of downtown.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by ud69 I don't see an athletic facility there. That land is too valuable. If I am a city planner, I would want hi-tech industry that is compatible with the GE facility. Boeing? Airbus?

UD already has another 16 acres directly adjacent to the GE R&D Ctr and they have yet to attract anyone else. And the UD deal would be the best of all world's for tennants. UD owns the land and builds the facility to a clients specs....then leases it to the client. That's the way the GE deal worked....a great deal for GE.

Everyone wants hi-tech....try to get it!

The Dayton city planner most likely would be delighted to have MVH and UD jointly develop the 35 acres. At present it's a blight on the area.

[jumpin' joe]

I vote for a casino.

[TommyGola]

Originally Posted by bobber I have to admit I never got it. Why have the county fairgrounds in the middle of town? County fairs are a lot of things, but mainly they are skewed heavily to the agricultural side of life and business. The current site just doesn't seem at all appropriate.

Bobber: Not to be a wise guy, but the fairgrounds was "out in the country" when it was constructed in the late 1800's. The city engulfed the country over the last 125 years. I do believe the fairgrounds site would be an outstanding location for a new arena. Miami Valley Hospital would indeed be another likely suitor, but there may be enough there for both entities.

[ud2]

What is the fairgrounds used for, other than the fair, during the rest of the year?

Livestock storage under the grandstand? Harness racing? Or does it just sit empty 95% of the time?

[rollo]

They sell Christmas trees from Oct. 1 thru New Year's....sometimes longer...

Thank you...thank you very much....

[oRed]

It would be a win/win situation for the Mont Co...there current facility is so outdated...a move north / west would bring them in touch with the only real rural parts of the county and allow the county to build an indoor facility for attracting evetns year round

[cj]

They have held an "X-games" type of event in the past. Not sure if it is still going on.

[cj]

I don't see how the fairgrounds has the land to house an arena and the parking necessary to support the facility. Would UD then turn the fields on the south side of Stewart into a parking lot? Aren't these fields used by the students for intramurals. It would be a shame to lose the fields to asphalt.

[Medford]

There is plenty of land there to build an arena, and the parking structures to support it. They'd probably have to build some parking garages, perhaps use the current lot and a shuttle service, similar to what they do in the old delphi lot now.

If all that were to happen, the U could then take the land that the arena sits on, and develop some combination retail and buildings for continuing adult education/grad school classes w/ easy on/off the interstate access.

[Radar]

CJ -- Do you mean "Xfest"? Although it could probably pass as XGames. It had been going on up through 2011. I think last year's was planned but cancelled due to poor ticket sales (?). It's proximity to MVH was perfect since many concert goers ended up going from the mosh pit to ER.

[rollo]

My Dayton and Miami Valley concerts
May 27, 1956: University of Dayton Fieldhouse
Nov. 24, 1956: Hobart Arena in Troy
April 7, 1972: University of Dayton Arena
Oct. 6, 1974: Two concerts at University of Dayton Arena
Oct. 26, 1976: University of Dayton Arena

Here's a Fieldhouse picture where I look way too skinny!



Long live the UD Arena!!

Home of the next Elvis Museum!

[UD62]

Originally Posted by Medford There is plenty of land there to build an arena, and the parking structures to support it. They'd probably have to build some parking garages, perhaps use the current lot and a shuttle service, similar to what they do in the old delphi lot now. If all that were to happen, the U could then take the land that the arena sits on, and develop some combination retail and buildings for continuing adult education/grad school classes w/ easy on/off the interstate access.

Oh boy, more shuttle service, just what the doctor ordered. Park on the top floor of a parking garage and you could time your wait to leave with a sun dial. thought UD moved out of the Delphi lot, but I could be wrong on that, haven't gone to a game on visits to Dayton since my first two experiences with the shuttle service, not worth the hassel for a UD vs Directional U game, when it is on the tube

[UDDoug]

Not sure a new Arena is needed.

But I think UD fans are spoiled by the simplicity of parking and exiting at the current Arena compared to what it takes elsewhere. You can spend an hour trying to get out of a parking lot at a UK or UL game.

Based on the current rush to beat the traffic, half the crowd will be gone at halftime if parking gets more difficult.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by UD62 Oh boy, more shuttle service, just what the doctor ordered. Park on the top floor of a parking garage and you could time your wait to leave with a sun dial. thought UD moved out of the Delphi lot, but I could be wrong on that, haven't gone to a game on visits to Dayton since my first two experiences with the shuttle service, not worth the hassel for a UD vs Directional U game, when it is on the tube

I don't understand the negativity to the parking situation. Imagine an arena on the fairgrounds lot and a parking garage on the open fields across Stewart St. A 2nd story walkway, about 40 feet wide, could connect the two structures a la the stadium where UK plays. Exits include 48 south for the Oakwood and Centerville types, Patterson south for the Kettering types, and a 3rd exit on to Stewart with variable direction traffic lanes crossing the bridge for 75 south and 75 north traffic.

At the current location of the arena you basically have to exit on to a single road and go north or south. A parking garage at the green space between Patterson / Stewart / Brown streets would have so many more exits.

Plus, students would not need to drive so that's a few less cars, UD campus might offer some additional parking, etc. I think parking would not be the biggest issue.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Medford There is plenty of land there to build an arena, and the parking structures to support it. They'd probably have to build some parking garages, perhaps use the current lot and a shuttle service, similar to what they do in the old delphi lot now. If all that were to happen, the U could then take the land that the arena sits on, and develop some combination retail and buildings for continuing adult education/grad school classes w/ easy on/off the interstate access.

Originally Posted by UDDoug Not sure a new Arena is needed. But I think UD fans are spoiled by the simplicity of parking and exiting at the current Arena compared to what it takes elsewhere. You can spend an hour trying to get out of a parking lot at a UK or UL game. Based on the current rush to beat the traffic, half the crowd will be gone at halftime if parking gets more difficult.

Re-reading Chris' comments re the Arena in his 7/28 Odds and Ends thread is worthwhile. UD has one of the best college facilities in the country. Even thinking about a new BB facility makes little sense when weighed against other needs.

Athletic fields for FB, soccer, LAX, incl practice fields, etc., requires much land. A portion of the Faitgrounds property would be mighty handy for such purposes.

Should the Fairgrounds ever become available, MVH and UD, working together, can be counted on to develop a sensible development plan. That location is just too important to both institutions for them to stand aside. Their involvement and leadership are an imperative.

[Tony T 71]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

[bobber]

Did I read somewhere that the NCAA plans to up the size of its tournament sites in the coming years? Right now the Arena meets the size requirement (but it doesn't exceed it by much). If they were to arbitrarily raise the minimum seating to, say, 15K....we might be out in the cold.

Anyone else recall reading the same thing?

[bcross]

Originally Posted by cj I don't see how the fairgrounds has the land to house an arena and the parking necessary to support the facility. Would UD then turn the fields on the south side of Stewart into a parking lot? Aren't these fields used by the students for intramurals. It would be a shame to lose the fields to asphalt.

I'd imagine they would look to acquire additional property north of the fairgrounds to accomodate any additional parking.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I don't understand the negativity to the parking situation. Imagine an arena on the fairgrounds lot and a parking garage on the open fields across Stewart St. A 2nd story walkway, about 40 feet wide, could connect the two structures a la the stadium where UK plays. Exits include 48 south for the Oakwood and Centerville types, Patterson south for the Kettering types, and a 3rd exit on to Stewart with variable direction traffic lanes crossing the bridge for 75 south and 75 north traffic.

You would need to widen Far Hills and Brown St. to at least 4 lanes to accommodate the traffic from the south...imagine the congestion if Edwin C Moses was 1 lane now.....and considering Dayton just reduced Brown St to 1 lane and are currently doing something to the middle lane of Far Hills as it runs north from Oakwood towards Stewart, I don't think the City planers are anticipating additional traffic around UD/Fairgrounds in the near or distant future.

UD Arena will be around for a long time.

[UDBrian]

I would think that it makes more sense to leave the arena where it is and raise the roof if you need to increase capacity. I doubt there are many arenas in the country with interstate access less than a mile away.

[flybye]

UD has been looking into this. Money would have to raised and the city wants a plan on flowing the traffic in and out. So its a long way out but UD wants to mantain the NCCAs and the building by the time this goes down will be almost 50years old. Lot to happen but UD wants this.

[rollo]

I just drove past and around the Fairground property and without some major earth moving efforts AND the purchase of BHA and all other surrounding properties there is no way a new arena will fit in that area...unless you build a 30 story parking garage!

[NorthwestFlyer]

I'm thinking monorail from the C lot. Monorail, it means one rail.

[rollo]

Too bad Captain Rollo Tiberius Kirk isn't around...he could just beam us from home to the arena and back!

[Flyer Dave]

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/m...ch#.UfhjXerD_v

[NorthwestFlyer]

36 acres at the fair grounds may be a little cramped actually. The United Center for example, sits on 46 acres.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by bcross I'd imagine they would look to acquire additional property north of the fairgrounds to accomodate any additional parking.

The property north of the fairgrounds has already been acquired by MVH.

___________________
Whether your glass is half empty or half full, you still have more to drink.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by NorthwestFlyer 36 acres at the fair grounds may be a little cramped actually. The United Center for example, sits on 46 acres.

The "interested parties" are most like owners of the land being looked at by the Fair Board...but, may also include parties interested in buying the current Fairgrounds property.

It is all but inconceivable to me that anyone other than MVH, UD or MVH and UD would be interested buyers. Whether or not MVH/UD would have been interested at this time matters little. Those institutions cannot allow control of the Fairgrounds property to fall into the hands of an outsider.

I do not think of using the site for an Arena replacement....our Arena is fine...one of the best. But, with WLAX on the horrizon UD is in a bit of a bind for a playing field. And, even if there was no prior interest in leaving Welcome....owning all or a portion of the Fairgrounds site makes for an interesting possibility...bringing FB "back on campus", as the Fairgrounds is essentially "on campus" compared to WS.

The cooperation of MVH would be all but essential to UD. UD does not need 35 acres...the current Arena complex isn't that large. But, a portion at the south end of Fairgrouds, ~ 15 acres would be very nice and would be more affordable, of course.

This is a really interesting and surpisingly sudden development. Surely gives Dr. Dan and the UD planners something to think about...and is yet another unexpected happening that would turn the Master Plan on its head.

[Flyer2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I don't understand the negativity to the parking situation. Imagine an arena on the fairgrounds lot and a parking garage on the open fields across Stewart St. A 2nd story walkway, about 40 feet wide, could connect the two structures a la the stadium where UK plays. Exits include 48 south for the Oakwood and Centerville types, Patterson south for the Kettering types, and a 3rd exit on to Stewart with variable direction traffic lanes crossing the bridge for 75 south and 75 north traffic. At the current location of the arena you basically have to exit on to a single road and go north or south. A parking garage at the green space between Patterson / Stewart / Brown streets would have so many more exits. Plus, students would not need to drive so that's a few less cars, UD campus might offer some additional parking, etc. I think parking would not be the biggest issue.

I imagine it and I want to puke! We really have it great as far as parking goes and I can't imagine how a new arena and a parking garage. We could just leave our cars in the middle of the street. Other sports might be accommodated more easily including a new track, baseball, soccer, etc.

Just look at the Nutter Center, really bad parking that requires a real walk which is gratifying when it snows. Nothing like a bowl with a ton of rows to get the blood pumping. Now if they added escalators it would help.

Problem is the wrong people make the decisions. Case in point is the 5 fountains at Riverscape what a cluster F..k. They could not use River water because it is too sandy...Duh! Have to use well field water. Pumps don't have enough ass to do the job; nozzles made of wrong material; little research done by competent people. Singapore has a single fountain with a rotating laser light show that would have been great and a lot less money.

[shocka43]

Hate to break it to you all...but with proper planning and design, a traffic pattern designed around the Fairgrounds property has much more potential than the arena design ever thought about having.

UD arena has one thoroughfare to dump 5 parking access points onto. UD fans have figured it out, because it is the same crew game in and game out...it flows well...but UD Arena is limited and it is a mess when the out of towners are here.

The fairgrounds property is surrounded by 4 different streets, with improvements, puts many more lanes of egress from the property into play, along with more access points. Combine that with any remote garage or parking access, and you have an even smoother egress from the property. Place a pedestrian walkway from the property over the roadway, and you have a seamless transition with vehicular and pedestrian traffic.

I have done traffic plans for many events, and access and control are essential. UD arena has plenty of control, but limited access in terms of traffic design. Every car in and out has to go one of two directions. With the fairgrounds property, you have 8 directions. It is harder to design at first, but once it is designed, it is simple.

[TommyGola]

Shocka: That was very well explained to me and my fellow Priders. Thank you for such a visionary explanation of the possibilities.

[UDBrian]

Shocka

Great points

Who is going to pay for all of the road enhancements? Do you think that the bball games can justify it to the city? If they used this for concerts and other crowd drawing events I can picture the city being able to justify it.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Glen Clark The property north of the fairgrounds has already been acquired by MVH. ___________________ Whether your glass is half empty or half full, you still have more to drink.

Glen my guess would be MVH as well.
UAC: I don't think UD is going to spend 10 to 15 million dollars for a lacrosse field.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by TommyGola Shocka: That was very well explained to me and my fellow Priders. Thank you for such a visionary explanation of the possibilities.

The reality is, UD does not need a new BB facility.

Another reality: It's not reasonable or even sensible to assume that UD will be able to retain the First Four. It was nice while it lasted...and UD did/does a great job. But, there will be competition for the First Four from other sites...and no matter what kind of facility we have...even a brand new one,....it's unreasonable to think we'll be able to retain the First Four much longer. That just won't happen.

Finally, while we get PR from hosting the First Four...and some money (but not a lot),...the PR we'd get from becoming a consistent NCAA participant is more valuable....especially with a Sweet 16 or better every now and then....and we'd probably come out even better financially.

The University of Dayton can not expect to "known" for hosting the Final Four or the most NCAA tournament games. Gonzaga, Xavier, Butler and other peers don't do those things...and their stature, PR and otherwise,...is much better than ours.

To suggest that a program drawing 12,000+ year-after-year to watch no better than average BB should consider investing many tens of millions in a new BB facility is just plain nuts.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[UDan71]

Very well stated, UAC. If we can't make a name for ourselves as a prominent team in the NCAA tournament most years, I really could care less whether the NCAA chooses us as a site for tournament games. We're simply irrelevant as a basketball school, then. Only relevant as a location.

[rollo]

Even if UD found someone to build them a new Arean I don't want it. Our Arena was build for basketball and the best seats are right on the court, where they should be. Our students sit 8 feet from the baseline...perfect!

Watch Ohio State or UC or Xavier or any other team with a fairly new convocation center that was built for concerts, hockey, tractor pulls, WWE wrestling and the occasional basketball game and you'll see the best seats are 20 feet behind the benches and the students sit sometimes 50 feet behind the baseline.

I don't want a convocation center with a hollow court and dead spots that echos like the Grand Canyon, seats that cost 3X more than I'm paying now and are further away and a PA system whose sole purpose is to send you home deaf. I want the Arena...with all its warts and faults...to be around for another 50 years.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer The reality is, UD does not need a new BB facility.

I agree, and would be bent if a new facility was created...although I see the pluses and minuses...I wasn't advocating one way or another...

[bcross]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer The reality is, UD does not need a new BB facility. Another reality: It's not reasonable or even sensible to assume that UD will be able to retain the First Four. It was nice while it lasted...and UD did/does a great job. But, there will be competition for the First Four from other sites...and no matter what kind of facility we have...even a brand new one,....it's unreasonable to think we'll be able to retain the First Four much longer. That just won't happen. Finally, while we get PR from hosting the First Four...and some money (but not a lot),...the PR we'd get from becoming a consistent NCAA participant is more valuable....especially with a Sweet 16 or better every now and then....and we'd probably come out even better financially. The University of Dayton can not expect to "known" for hosting the Final Four or the most NCAA tournament games. Gonzaga, Xavier, Butler and other peers don't do those things...and their stature, PR and otherwise,...is much better than ours. To suggest that a program drawing 12,000+ year-after-year to watch no better than average BB should consider investing many tens of millions in a new BB facility is just plain nuts.

Nice strawman. UD isn't considering building a whole new arena because of the first four. Those things will be considered in the design, but they simply are not a driving force.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by UDBrian Who is going to pay for all of the road enhancements? Do you think that the bball games can justify it to the city? If they used this for concerts and other crowd drawing events I can picture the city being able to justify it.

Many of them would occur with the overall development plan. Roadways are pretty sufficient to the south and west of the fairgrounds....the east and north leaves some to be desired.

There are creative funding mechanisms in place in the economic development front that allow for infrastructure improvements. Many cities are using Tax Incremental Financing, TIF Funds, to create the necessary infrastructure to assist in drawing economic development.

If UD says we will build a facility capable of hosting more than UD events and it is an asset to the region and development as a whole...Montgomery County/Dayton would be free to get on board and put the infrastructure in. Public/Private partnerships are essential any more. UD doesn't pay for roadway enhancements or bridge work in the area that actually enhances UD...is it the government entities in the area.

I am not advocating the construction of a new facility...just stating that it can be possible if the plan is well thought out and coordinated in the best interests of the area. UD has shown that they are capable facility managers....they just would need a partnership.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Furio .....I don't think UD is going to spend 10 to 15 million dollars for a lacrosse field.

I don't think so either. The key point is that control of the Fairgrounds site nas to be in the hands of MVH, UD or both....even though neither institution has a need for the property now.

Since the southern portion of the Faitgrounds borders UD land and the northern portion UD land...shared development seems logical to me.

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer The reality is, UD does not need a new BB facility. Another reality: It's not reasonable or even sensible to assume that UD will be able to retain the First Four. It was nice while it lasted...and UD did/does a great job. But, there will be competition for the First Four from other sites...and no matter what kind of facility we have...even a brand new one,....it's unreasonable to think we'll be able to retain the First Four much longer. That just won't happen. Finally, while we get PR from hosting the First Four...and some money (but not a lot),...the PR we'd get from becoming a consistent NCAA participant is more valuable....especially with a Sweet 16 or better every now and then....and we'd probably come out even better financially. The University of Dayton can not expect to "known" for hosting the Final Four or the most NCAA tournament games. Gonzaga, Xavier, Butler and other peers don't do those things...and their stature, PR and otherwise,...is much better than ours. To suggest that a program drawing 12,000+ year-after-year to watch no better than average BB should consider investing many tens of millions in a new BB facility is just plain nuts.

Agree that the more successful basketball program is far more important.

But in terms of facility, it's not about the First Four, it's second and third round games. And doing both (winning more and hosting) certainly isn't mutually exclusive.

In terms of new facility, they need to be thinking about it and the timing. My understanding is that structurally the Arena is on borrowed time before it will require repairs that will cost far more than it did to build it.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[rollo]

I still miss Riverfront Stadium and the $3.50 'top 6' tickets...and the beer garden...and Marge Schott sitting in the 5th row signing autographs for all the little kids and drunks!

The Great American is nicer but - to me - was a waste of money....too 'Corporate' for me. Same with Paul Brown Stadium, except it's too 'Beverly Hillbillies' for my taste.

Long live UD Arena!

[UACFlyer]

The leaders of institutions like MVH and UD also have responsibilties to consider legacy issues.

When the first 50 acres of NCR property were acquired UD "needed" the 25 bordering Brown St. But, Ud could not risk the 25 along Paterson being sold to a developer who might use the land for god-knows-what. So UD purchased the land and is using it for development that compliments UD, e.g., GE R&D.

Similarly, when NCR unexpectedly moved south UD acted again for the same reason.

Should the Fairgrounds land become available Curran has to think about UD 20, 50 years from now. What will happen then, what UD's needs will be are not knowable. But, UD can't risk making a mistake from which there is no recovery. Either buy the land (that you don't need now), a once in a lifetime opportunity, or take a chance that it will be developed by someone else down the road and "everything will turn out alright". Yeah, sure.

Really, there is no choice. MVH and UD have to gain control of the land. The two institutions work together so closely...and have so many common interests,...that a partnership re the Fairgrounds should be pretty easy to formulate at reasonable cost to both parties.

[longtimefan]

On a more serious note, it was just announced that UD will be selling Pepsi instead of Coke at the Arena. Talk about screwing up the game day experience!

[Bill Elwood]

Originally Posted by longtimefan On a more serious note, it was just announced that UD will be selling Pepsi instead of Coke at the Arena. Talk about screwing up the game day experience!

Across the whole campus...must have been a few more $$$ in it to have Pepsi in dorms, dining areas, Arena, on scoreboards, etc.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by UDDoug .....In terms of new facility, they need to be thinking about it and the timing. My understanding is that structurally the Arena is on borrowed time before it will require repairs that will cost far more than it did to build it.

The cost of repair surely would cost more than the ~$6 million (?) it cost to build. But, those were `69 dollars. What matters is what it would cost to build a new facilility seating, say, 18,000, in 2013 dollars.

That cost would be 2x, 3x, 5x the cost of structural renovations.

UD Arena, for all its wonders, has an odd structure...reminds me of a banana. Could a major structural overhaul be done by modifying the roof structure so as to add ~ 5000 more seats? I have no idea.

Why would one want to add seats other than to accommodate the NCAA for tournament purposes? UD draws exceptionally well; but rarely sells out the ~13,500 seat Arena.

I don't know the Arena well enough to comment on the adequacy of public areas, concessions, rest rooms, lockers, media facilities, etc. But, it seems to me that those things are more than good enough for a BB program like UD's. We are not Louisville, Memphis, NC, Duke, etc.,...and never will be. If the Arena was not pretty darn good we would have been dropped by the NCAA by this this time.

The UD Arena is far, far better than UConn's facility...and I'll tell you; there is no talk of a new facility for UConn. And it's not a money issue...UConn gets everything it asks for.

UD's focus should be....must be,...on producing a consistently sucessful men's BB program. To think of anything else is to lose sight of the true goal. We haven't demonstrated that we're close to doing that.

UD's consideration of uses for a portion of the Fairgrounds, if that becomes an option, have to be on more important priorities than a new facility for basketball. We've got one of the best in the country!

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

We are all assuming the new arena, the interest in the fair grounds property, heck might as well throw in the interest in joining the Big East while I am at it, are all really happening, and not just rumors started at cocktail partys and on the internet.

What we do not know is a timeline on a new arena. Is this 2015? 2025? 2035? 2045? Nothing wrong with grabbing some prime real estate and planning for the future.

[UDBrian]

I'm not assuming that a new arena is going to be built. I think that raising the roof of the new one makes more sense financially if it can be done. I know that other locations have done it but there might be a problem at UD because of the sand and underground water table.

[Gazoo]

Lots of good stuff here.

First, I think some of you are confusing the people here like Shaka and me who are only pointing out what's possible, not what UD should do.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer It is all but inconceivable to me that anyone other than MVH, UD or MVH and UD would be interested buyers. Whether or not MVH/UD would have been interested at this time matters little. Those institutions cannot allow control of the Fairgrounds property to fall into the hands of an outsider. This is a really interesting and surpisingly sudden development. Surely gives Dr. Dan and the UD planners something to think about...and is yet another unexpected happening that would turn the Master Plan on its head.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. Following that logic to it's end, UD and MVH need to own the entire city of Dayton. I'm not sure what an "outsider" would be, but if it's just more MVH and UD I can't see Dayton expanding its tax base very much. The city should be on the phone with UD and MVH trying to broker a deal for something that will benefit all 3 parties.

I don't think it's sudden, I heard this rumor at least a year ago and I'm not that well connected.

Originally Posted by Flyer2 I imagine it and I want to puke! We really have it great as far as parking goes and I can't imagine how a new arena and a parking garage. We could just leave our cars in the middle of the street. Other sports might be accommodated more easily including a new track, baseball, soccer, etc. Just look at the Nutter Center, really bad parking that requires a real walk which is gratifying when it snows. Nothing like a bowl with a ton of rows to get the blood pumping. Now if they added escalators it would help.

I'm not sure how sprawling acers of parking at Nutter reminds you of how an attached parking garage might look at UD, but I think it's safe to say those concerns would definitely need to be addressed. I hate Nutter parking, enough to make me not go there for events when I lived in Dayton.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer The reality is, UD does not need a new BB facility.

True. And I love UD arena. But how much more could we do for economic development / benefit if we had certain upgrades or reconfigured an arena? Maybe not enough to justify it.

[CE80]

What about a new City of Dayton football stadium on the Fairgrounds site and UD takes over Welcome?

[Radar]

Better yet...a new football stadium that both UD and the city share, bulldoze Welcome, and everyone can once again park in the same lot! No shuttles!

[mikeymo85]

Everyone is missing the the biggest news, the fair is coming to Brookville!!

[shocka43]

We all love the arena...but...at some point in time...MAJOR renovations will occur, maintenance costs will increase, etc...we all know that with today's dollar, renovations are more financially wise than a rebuild...

There are negatives with the arena...like it or not...there aren't a ton...but a few...

Old and outdated main locker rooms, minimal storage, weak media staging area for larger events...such as tournaments...parking issues (capacity for all visitors)...place is hated by media logistics (such as running cable/wires)...pedestrian flow is difficult for visitors who haven't been to the arena before (log jam to the concessions for tournament time)...no multi-purpose ability in terms of hosting more than one event...(unlike similar facilities that may have the main arena, then a multipurpose gym/conference/practice area...Donoher center is limited)...ever running sump pumps...

All of these characteristics are things that happen with older facilities. UD arena only able to put lipstick on downfalls until major money is put up for improvements that are more than paint, TVs, and the like.

I don't want to see a new facility...but eventually...maybe not in some of our lifetimes, the reality of the situation is that eventually something will happen. Depending on the direction of UD, property acquisition would need to happen soon, given the fact that land isn't going to miracle itself in the area any more than what it already is.

Hopefully the Arena is in service for years to come...which I think it will be...but...the future is right around the corner.

	Don Donoher DON DONOHER Legendary Flyer men's basketball coach who guided Dayton to 435 victories in 25 seasons (1964-1989) including the 1967 NCAA Runner-Up. Took over the program after the passing of Tom Blackburn and earned many NCAA and NIT bids over his career, including five Sweet-16s, one Elite Eight appearance, and the 1968 NIT Championship. Groomed All-Americans Don May and Jim Paxson, along with all-time leading scorer Roosevelt Chapman. Coached UD as they joined conference affiliation for the first time (Midwest Collegiate). A graduate of UD, Donoher played for Blackburn and credits much of his coaching success to his mentor's teachings: defense, ball protection, patience, and unselfishness.

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by UACFlyer The cost of repair surely would cost more than the ~$6 million (?) it cost to build. But, those were `69 dollars. What matters is what it would cost to build a new facilility seating, say, 18,000, in 2013 dollars. That cost would be 2x, 3x, 5x the cost of structural renovations.

The more than it cost was in today dollars, not in 1969 dollars. I've heard from some (not terribly connected) that 25 years costs to maintain the Arena approach the cost to build and maintain new. Approach is open to interpretation, but something like 80% of the cost of new would not be surprising.

The shape and structure, where it sits, and being below the water table are things that drive that higher cost. And the current arena is not terribly media friendly.

While I don't think UD should build a new facility in the nearer term, I dont think doing so would have any impact whatsoever on basketball performance improving. And it wouldn't surprise me if it were determined that within 15 years (at which time it's nearly 60 years old) UD Arena needs to be replaced.

[cj]

Buy Welcome Stadium, build the DPS a new stadium, and build a new arena adjacent to the old arena. Knock down the old arena and fill it in.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by cj Buy Welcome Stadium, build the DPS a new stadium, and build a new arena adjacent to the old arena. Knock down the old arena and fill it in.

You left out the part where the university does a land swap with the city for the park behind the arena, and makes the park an enlarged parking area with access onto Cincinnati Street which leads the back way to both 35 and 75, more egress. No more shuttle buses from remote lots

[Ready Action]

Tonight's lead story on WHIO Channel 7. Reporting is Miller Valentine is behind the fairgrounds land deal. Also reported "University of Dayton has no interest in the land". More to be reported in the DDN.

[Chris R]

By no interest they don't mean "no interest in what happens to it." UD doesnt want the world's biggest Hustler Hollywood store going in there. To have leverage, you need skin in the game however.

[FSUFlyer]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan If I am a city planner, I bend over backwards to continue to kiss the behinds of both UD and MVH as they have to be the two largest employers in the city now, and have invested and improoved facilities as much if not more than any other two entities within the city in the last decade, right? Plenty of other options for hi-tech industry, some of which being developed on the east side of downtown.

This.

Also, it seems like there is some empty land north of Miami Valley that they can use for expansion, if they haven't already acquired it.

Originally Posted by cj I don't see how the fairgrounds has the land to house an arena and the parking necessary to support the facility. Would UD then turn the fields on the south side of Stewart into a parking lot? Aren't these fields used by the students for intramurals. It would be a shame to lose the fields to asphalt.

Maybe these lots are no longer there, but aren't there some big lots at the southwest corner of Brown and Stewart? Aren't there lots at Old River that can be used? Those lots alone are roughly half the size of the lot at UD Arena right now (eyeballing). That's not to mention other various, smaller parking lots, street parking in the area and the like. Or that there'd almost certainly be parking on site at the Fairgrounds location.

Originally Posted by UDDoug Not sure a new Arena is needed. But I think UD fans are spoiled by the simplicity of parking and exiting at the current Arena compared to what it takes elsewhere.

You don't need to build a new arena right now. But in 10 years? 15 years? It's always a good idea for a university to have some adjacent land it can use for future purposes.

Also, I always thought traffic was TERRIBLE for UD games due to the logjam the bridge created. Granted I haven't been able to make a game these last few years. I just don't expect much has changed.

Originally Posted by rollo I just drove past and around the Fairground property and without some major earth moving efforts AND the purchase of BHA and all other surrounding properties there is no way a new arena will fit in that area...unless you build a 30 story parking garage!

I'm not sure why you think that.






------------------------

As for lacrosse, build the field on top of a parking garage. I'm serious.

http://www.saintleolions.com/genrel/...ses/news100212

Or just expand Baujan's facilities. Either way.

(And I typed this up hours ago. #1stWorldProblems prevented me from being able to post it.)

[rollo]

Your two-dimensional photos don't give justice to the downslope of the west side of the Fairgrounds property that will have to be filled/re-graded...

A new arena will have a much, much larger footprint than UD Arena as it will be a multi-purpose convocation center.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by rollo Your two-dimensional photos don't give justice to the downslope of the west side of the Fairgrounds property that will have to be filled/re-graded... A new arena will have a much, much larger footprint than UD Arena as it will be a multi-purpose convocation center.

I think the point is that is can be done with something short of a 30 story parking garage, though I think a parking garage would needed.

[Chris R]

Most facilities would dream of the location and ease of access that UD Arena enjoys. The reason traffic moves at UD Arena is in part to one major geographic advantage: you have a superhighway to quickly shuffle cars into without any traffic lights (well, one light but its managed). I75 acts like a giant plunger to quickly shove cars out of the lot and out of the way. And it will only get better once they finish I75 construction.

In any urban/downtown environment, you dont have this giant sieve to push thousands of cars into in short order. No matter how well you run the lights, you have cars crossing traffic, reaching intersections, making left and right turns, and basically causing chaos.

The Arena parking is not perfect, but compared to everywhere else Ive ever been, its the greatest thing ever devised.

[Sit_Down_Digger]

The old Arena will make a GREAT intramural facility. Students can either walk there or have shuttles running. I say keep one of the concession stands open for some food and beer after a tough basketball game. With some design work they could possibly put some dorm rooms in there somewhere with the current Flight Deck serving as the dining hall. Students would be willing to pay big money to room there. There is alot of flat parking lot space that could be torn up and seeded to use as the lacrosse fields. There are far too many vacant lots in Dayton that sit idle for years, hopefully UD Arena won't be added to the list. I'm sure Dr. Curran, as a responsible community leader, will make sure that doesn't happen. I for one would hate to see the parking lot overgrown with weeds and tumbleweeds blowing where once stood a proud landmark of the city.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by Chris R Most facilities would dream of the location and ease of access that UD Arena enjoys. The reason traffic moves at UD Arena is in part to one major geographic advantage: you have a superhighway to quickly shuffle cars into without any traffic lights (well, one light but its managed). I75 acts like a giant plunger to quickly shove cars out of the lot and out of the way. And it will only get better once they finish I75 construction. In any urban/downtown environment, you dont have this giant sieve to push thousands of cars into in short order. No matter how well you run the lights, you have cars crossing traffic, reaching intersections, making left and right turns, and basically causing chaos. The Arena parking is not perfect, but compared to everywhere else Ive ever been, its the greatest thing ever devised.

I don't know why we are worried about traffic after games. Half the crowd is gone by the 4 minute TO and half of the remaining crowd is already on the concourse.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by Chris R By no interest they don't mean "no interest in what happens to it." UD doesnt want the world's biggest Hustler Hollywood store going in there. To have leverage, you need skin in the game however.

If Miller-Valentine is the party that will be charged with developing the Fairgrounds, that may be all the assurance that UD needs. M-V and UD are closely connected by way of past projects and a few UD alums at M-V.

Also, "apparent" lack of interest on the part of UD and MVH could be a ploy to hold the price down. If both parties appear to be salivating over a chance to own the property, that's hardly a good negotiating position.

[Hyde Park Flyer]

and, a few ud alums that are part of the m-v families.

[FSUFlyer]

Originally Posted by rollo A new arena will have a much, much larger footprint than UD Arena as it will be a multi-purpose convocation center.

Even if you double or triple the area a new arena would use, it'd still fit in that footprint easily and still have substantial on-site room for parking.

[DetroitFlyer]

Arena nothing.... This is where Mike Kelly Stadium will be built for football and lacrosse.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer Arena nothing.... This is where Mike Kelly Stadium will be built for football and lacrosse.

Should UD go D1A in football?



(Sitting back to watch the fireworks from DF)

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by rollo Your two-dimensional photos don't give justice to the downslope of the west side of the Fairgrounds property that will have to be filled/re-graded... .

A creative architect would take advantage of this and locate the new arena near the northwest corner of the property, take advantage of the hill side and create a large walk out area facing downtown, with windows capturing the downtown Dayton skyline. A minature Lucas Oil Stadium.

[DetroitFlyer]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Should UD go D1A in football? (Sitting back to watch the fireworks from DF)

Of course I know you mean Football Bowl Subdivision, (FBS), rather than where we are today, Football Championship Subdivision, (FCS).

Why does it depend? Well you see I have a PowerBall ticket for tonight's drawing on my night stand at home. If I am the sole winner, UD just might get an endowment for football that could support a move to FBS.... Keep your fingers crossed....

[rollo]

Originally Posted by FSUFlyer Even if you double or triple the area a new arena would use, it'd still fit in that footprint easily and still have substantial on-site room for parking.

I disagree with you on the simple premise that there's more to a parking lot than open space. Considering you'd have to widen all the roads around the new stadium that would pinch in the available space for parking spots as well as have islands for the lighting, wide lanes for egress, loading and unloading areas around the concourse of the stadium, handicapped parking galore, a turnaround for busses, separate VIP parking lot and their private entrance, utilities, etc...the land available for parking spots keeps getting smaller and smaller.

In my business, if you want to build a 40 acre landfill, you better have 400 acres available...maybe more. Building a stadium is no different.

[LI2UD2PA]

I know this is on topic and off topic and subject to "censorship" but here goes:

I was a freshman in '72 and a bunch of us went over to the Fairgrounds for the "County Fair". Coming from LI, NY this was all foreign to me. I saw more farm animals than I knew existed. There was a side show under a tent, $.50 and we were in. All kinds of "freaks", a real side show of the day. There was a sword swallower and in the middle of his "act" one of the guys I was with from Founders said, "I would like to date your sister" which brought the house down. Haven't thought of that in 40 years.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

WHIO just reported at 11 PM that the vote by Montgomery County is tomorrow for the fairgrounds to move to Brookville. Said if it goes as planned, Miller Valentine could own the fairgrounds property by the end of the year. I do not see a web link to the story yet, but in my opinion WHIO report sorta made it sound like the deal is pretty much done, other than the vote.

[UDGutter2]

Originally Posted by Chris R An Arena at the Fairgrounds would be a traffic apocalypse. I couldnt even fathom SR48 and Stewart St intersection. UD Arena is one of the easiest facilities in the country to get in and out of. Its not perfect, but its mostly in a class of its own compared to most urban facility calamities.

Unless you're in C lot and they only let you turn left.

[Bill Elwood]

...try to stop by and support a true Dayton (and UD) supporter in the fight of his life - -


A fundraiser for Pat Flanagan is scheduled for 6 p.m. to 1 a.m., Friday at Montgomery County Fairgrounds Coliseum, 1043 S. Main St., Dayton.

[ohioflyer]

Each season ticket holder will get a helicopter and landing pad - seat license fees to top $250000.00 - progress through planning

[sheg]

Update? http://www.midtowndayton.com/phone/index.html

[Bat'71]

How did they come up with the name "Midtown" for this development? The Fairgrounds is nowhere close to "Midtown". I would have thought the developers would have come up with a better moniker than that, something a little bit more urbane and reflective of the location...this just seems a little lame, IMHO.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Bat'71 How did they come up with the name "Midtown" for this development?

3 Royal suggestions:

DrunkTown

EntitledTown

ChinaTown

[Gazoo]

I think Midtown has a nice ring to it. Midtown Manhattan, Midtown Atlanta come to mind.

[UACFlyer]

Development of the Fairgrounds in a way anything close to the plans will be a big plus for UD environs. Indeed, since UD practically surrounds the area, something like University Place or University Commons has a nice ring to it...to me at least. But, Midtown is just fine as well.

The important thing is that it happens.

UD went through a period years ago when the surrounding area was pretty bad. No more! And this just adds to the enhancement. The key to success is an improved Dayton economy...meaning more good jobs.

[Columbia Blue]

Originally Posted by DetroitFlyer Of course I know you mean Football Bowl Subdivision, (FBS), rather than where we are today, Football Championship Subdivision, (FCS). Why does it depend? Well you see I have a PowerBall ticket for tonight's drawing on my night stand at home. If I am the sole winner, UD just might get an endowment for football that could support a move to FBS.... Keep your fingers crossed....

nothing that a large donation or endowment can't cure, but i always thought it was a Title IX thing -- equal scholarships for men and women. Title IX hit the books in 1972, and UD went D-III non-scholly in 1977.

While I'd LOVE to see it, short of a multi-million dollar gift, I can't see UD ever returning to FBS. The best we could hope for is maybe the MAC, and we don't fit the institutional profile (large public schools). FBS awards up to 85 'ships and has facility requirements IIRC (minimum capacity), another big hurdle.

If/when we start women's lacrosse, that could create some equal opportunity for partial football funding. FCS awards up to 63 'ships, of which some programs/conferences do a fraction.

Other than the die-hards like DF, the Pioneer League at Welcome may never be a big draw. Here are your FCS conferences if you want to imagine a new quaint red brick football stadium closer to campus with name opponents:

http://www.afca.com/article/article.php?id=1142

Northeast Conf prolly best fit -- we already play Duquesne & Robert Morris. It would be exciting to compete at FCS national level, rather than just winning Pioneer League. Pioneer & NEC champs had a playoff game for a few years.

The rise of FCS football, 2013:
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foot...all-recruiting

No 'Ships a Blessing? 2009
http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/ne...o-be--1/nM48w/

here's an interesting post-mortem on xavier football, shut down in 1973:
http://web.archive.org/web/200904170...storystory.cfm

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

[bhflyer5]

Personally, I love the arena. It's a second home. I would really hate to think how UD games could be played in a bigger facility that would feel colder and more removed from the action. I absolutely hate the feel of Xavier's arena and living here in Chicago, even the Madhouse on Madison makes a fan feel far too removed from the action.

What's this constant cry for a new arena all about? Because a few people say they think it's a **** hole or is there actually something wrong with it?

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[ud2]

I will say that it is one of the loudest arenas that I've ever been in. I don't know if it is the acoustics or what, but it does get very loud in there for some reason. Almost seems like the place starts vibrating. Maybe it was my seat location behind a basket, the noise gets trapped by the lower ceiling there?

[mikeymo85]

I think the original rumor had to do with being large enough to host 3rd round NCAA games.
Another rumor was bigger arena to impress NBE.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by mikeymo85 I think the original rumor had to do with being large enough to host 3rd round NCAA games. Another rumor was bigger arena to impress NBE.

If we moved today we would have more fans in attendance than eight of the NBE teams, only Jays and Golden Eagles have better attendance. Now ability to host 3d round games may have some value. Only thing I see that is a drawback are the narrow concourses.

[N2663R]

So, if I'm reading this right, by 2050, UD will have a multipurpose indoor athletic facility similar to the Carrier Dome, we will have at least played in multiple FBS bowls, have 15,000+ students, and will buy MVH to start a medical school?