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  #101  
Old 01-20-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Right back at ya pal. We will see if you will admit that you were wrong when I end up being right.

Will UD make the NIT this year? Yes or no?

Will UD make the NCAAT next year? Yes or no?
Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
AM was great at player development. I am not happy with Grant's player development.

It is not enough for Grant to eventually have some success, we are trying to have the same success on the same timetable as Archie, he needs to have the same success on the same timetable.

Extra time to be successful? Do you even read your own posts? Archie was 7-9 in the A-10 his second year, good for an 11th-place finish. Do the math, “pal,” and you’ll find that Grant is in his second year at UD. You’re telling us Grant won’t top that this season? Archie was 17-14 his second season. You’re telling us at 12-6 now that Grant won’t top that?

Get a grip. AG is not the antichrist of coaches. I’m not Nostradamus (evidently you think you are), so I let the results speak for themselves. But in response to your childish challenge, I’m doubtful we make the NIT this year, though it’s possible. In fact, more possible than I would have thought pre-season. I do think we can make the dance next year. And if not, I’ll be among those ready to put AG on the hot seat.

You obviously have a man-crush on Archie, who by the way is in a death spin at Indiana as we speak (though I think he’ll right the ship). And apparently a men-crush on the staff he had here that to date has impressed NO ONE enough to earn a head coaching gig.

As for player development, I give Archie kudos, though he tried and failed with John Crosby. And having watched Svoboda play, that was going to be another failure. Pierce, too. And I guess you don’t think Crutcher has developed under Grant? Toppin? Landers isn’t a stud, but he’s better now than under Archie.

Face it, your Grant hate colors all things about the program. Sad to see. But anything that creates a break from your incessant decade-long scheduling rant is like a breath of fresh air. For now.

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  #102  
Old 01-20-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
And you thought/think one of Archie’s assistants would be doing better than AG.

You have posted some ridiculous stuff but this post is up there with one of your most ridiculous.
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Totally disagree. That is exactly what Butler, VCU, and Xavier have done.

The vast majority of the last several hc's at those 3 schools have had almost no head coaching experience. Rhoades, Wade, and Holtmann were the only ones that had more than 1 year of hc experience...not Grant, not Capel, not Smart, not Staak, not Gillen, not Prosser, not Matta, not Miller, not Mack, not Steele, not Collier, not Stevens, not Lickliter, not Miller, and not Jordan.

The program was not broken and did not need to be fixed when Archie left.

Grant is in his 11th year as a hc, what have you seen so far that leads you to believe that he will do as well as or better than Archie/take us to the next level?

And what other posts of mine do you have a problem with? Be specific.

A response to this post would be appreciated.

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  #103  
Old 01-20-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I think all could have helped. AM was great at player development. I am not happy with Grant's player development.

There was nothing significantly wrong with the culture that could not be fixed by tightening the leash on the existing coaching staff and players.

We did not need to totally destroy what Archie built in order to correct some small culture problems.

It is not enough for Grant to eventually have some success, we are trying to have the same success on the same timetable as Archie, he needs to have the same success on the same timetable. Do not tell me that Archie left the cupboard bare, that is nonsense. Grant should not get extra time to be successful, he took over a program that had been to 4 straight NCAAT's, the program had all the momentum in the world when he took over.
I don't know that AG is being given "extra time" for success, but it should certainly be factored in that we lost essentially ALL of our recruits when AM left. With what we graduated the year AM left and the loss of the recruits, yeah, the cupboard was pretty bare. To not acknowledge that is, well as you say, nonsense.

As for AG ability to develop players, it's still way too early to render much of a grade. What is it about AG's player development that you're not happy with?
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  #104  
Old 01-20-2019, 01:09 PM
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ud2, I’m probably fighting a losing battle with you here, but I’ll try.

I agree that AM was great at player development. I disagree that AG has done poorly to-date in player development. In no particular order, I cite Mikesell, Landers, Toppin, & Crutcher. You can add Cunningham and Davis into the mix, if you’d like. The jury is still out for me on Cohill & Policelli. We won’t know if AG & his staff were the problem with Williams, Crosby, Miller, & Pierce until we see how they perform at the collegiate level in their new surroundings.

Not sure what you mean about tightening the leash on existing players and coaches. Are you insinuating that AG should not have assembled his own staff? If so, then you’re advocating for something that’s different from how every other D-I program is run. And I may be wrong, but I believe part of the reason why some players left was because AG tightened the leash on them, requiring them to practice and play his way.

As far as “destroying what Archie built” is concerned, if there had been some semblance of class performance balance in Archie’s last 2 seasons, I’d be tempted to agree with you. But when the Class of ‘17 left, they took roughly 3/4 of “what Archie built” with them, and myself and others have cited far too many times how un-full the cupboard was when AM took the IU gig. So, “what Archie built” was over half-destroyed when he left.

And finally, as far as having the same success as AM on the same timetable is concerned, if AG had inherited the same situation that AM inherited, again, I’d be tempted to agree with you. But AM inherited a squad with 4 incoming, battle-tested seniors (Johnson, Williams, Parker, and Fabrizius), and 3 experienced juniors (Dillard, Benson, and Kavanaugh), and players with starting experience at every position. So, AG automatically started at UD at least a full season behind the curve that AM had when he started. So, given those facts, I can’t agree with you regarding the “same timetable” expectation.

Will AG have success in the long run that matches AM’s? Time will tell. I believe, in the end, the overwhelming majority of us will be quite pleased with the results yielded by the AG era. And unless someone has a crystal ball or a time machine, and can tell what our record “was” from 2018-23, then all I can say is, we’ll see.
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  #105  
Old 01-20-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
. We won’t know if AG & his staff were the problem with Williams, Crosby, Miller, & Pierce until we see how they perform at the collegiate level in their new surroundings.


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Well based on Sam Millers stats so far at Charleston, looks like Sam Miller is the problem not AG, AM, or whoever the Charleston coach is. Minutes, rebounds, and points are all down compared to his last year at UD.

SEASON AVERAGES
SEASON TEAM MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
2018-19 CHLS 10.6 1.0-1.9 .529 0.2-0.8 .286 0.9-1.2 .727 1.9 0.2 0.2 0.1 0.9 0.4 3.1
2016-17 DAY 12.2 1.5-3.5 .424 0.6-1.6 .357 1.0-1.4 .694 2.3 0.4 0.4 0.2 1.5 0.9 4.5
2015-16 DAY 9.9 1.0-2.3 .452 0.4-1.2 .303 0.8-1.0 .808 1.4 0.3 0.3 0.3 1.9 1.1 3.2
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  #106  
Old 01-20-2019, 01:29 PM
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Small cultural problems?, ud2, you don't have a clue. AM left a dumpster fire, AG is the fireman. AG did exactly the right thing cleaning house. AM moved at exactly the right time, he had poor to fair classes coming up, Kostas was a project, John was over matched, Svoboda the same, others were cancers. I don't blame AM for his move, he did the right thing, although right now he has his hands full. AM was really good at getting transfers, getting recruits not so much. AG appears to be good at both.

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  #107  
Old 01-20-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
And what other posts of mine do you have a problem with? Be specific.

I'll take a stab at it. There are too many to specify, but you tend to say the same things over and over and over and over and over. You went on and on and on and on and on about the 15/15 schedule. We got the drift after about the second post. Now you are going on and on and on and on and on about how bad a hire AG was. We got where you stood a year and a half ago. And so many of the things you say are flat out wrong. You can't actually think the cupboard wasn't bare when AG arrived. You can't actually think the five that left are better than the five we have sitting out. You can't actually think it is bad to set a tone and develop a culture. You can't actually think it is a bad thing when players with bad attitudes or limited talent transfer out. You can't actually think we are not on or ahead of schedule. I could go on and on, but I don't want to bore anyone.
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  #108  
Old 01-20-2019, 02:11 PM
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Posted yesterday, probably by a Purdue fan, a picture of Archie in a Dayton t-shirt.

"I wear this shirt whenever we lose because it reminds me of the better days... The days when I didn't have to live in Bloomington and listen to morons talk about their successes from the 70"s. WHY DID I LEAVE!!!"
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  #109  
Old 01-20-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Should have at least made the NIT last year or this year. We were coming off 4 straight NCAAT appearances.

Should make the NCAAT next year.

IMO, neither one of those things is going to happen.

We will not make the NIT or NCAAT this year.

We will not make the NCAAT next year.

We are not on schedule.

We are not ahead of schedule.

We are definitely behind schedule.

It might be another 8 or 9 years before we win another NCAAT game.

Not buying any of the Archie left a bare cupboard nonsense.

We had 5? guys leave last year. Grant is doing something to alienate his players. 1 or 2 leaving is normal, 5 at an A10 school like UD is highly unusual IMO.

I expect Grant to do as well as or better than Archie, he has a lot of work to do to meet that standard.
You'd be a good poster child for a bad up-bringing. Setting goals and standards that you can't meet ... but expect others to do
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  #110  
Old 01-20-2019, 04:09 PM
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  #111  
Old 01-20-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
I don't know that AG is being given "extra time" for success, but it should certainly be factored in that we lost essentially ALL of our recruits when AM left. With what we graduated the year AM left and the loss of the recruits, yeah, the cupboard was pretty bare. To not acknowledge that is, well as you say, nonsense.

As for AG ability to develop players, it's still way too early to render much of a grade. What is it about AG's player development that you're not happy with?
SLUFLYER, I agree with every bit of this post, except the part where we lost essentially all of Archie’s last recruiting class. I’m sure you don’t mean to discredit Jordan Davis, you simply mean to emphasize that 2 players reneged on their commitment and 2 others simply didn’t pan-out. And yes, a 20% recruit retention rate sucks. I’m just glad that the 1/5 who’s still here is Jordan Davis.
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  #112  
Old 01-20-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
SLUFLYER, I agree with every bit of this post, except the part where we lost essentially all of Archie’s last recruiting class. I’m sure you don’t mean to discredit Jordan Davis, you simply mean to emphasize that 2 players reneged on their commitment and 2 others simply didn’t pan-out. And yes, a 20% recruit retention rate sucks. I’m just glad that the 1/5 who’s still here is Jordan Davis.
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I forgot Jordan Davis was an Archie recruit.

Thanks again JD for sticking with the Flyers, and an even bigger thank you for breaking out of your offensive slump. Looking forward to watching you the next 2 1/2 years. Keep up the great D and hustle.
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  #113  
Old 01-20-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
SLUFLYER, I agree with every bit of this post, except the part where we lost essentially all of Archie’s last recruiting class. I’m sure you don’t mean to discredit Jordan Davis, you simply mean to emphasize that 2 players reneged on their commitment and 2 others simply didn’t pan-out. And yes, a 20% recruit retention rate sucks. I’m just glad that the 1/5 who’s still here is Jordan Davis.
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Agreed. I actually forgot JD was already in the pipeline. Even with JD, it would be hard to make a valid argument that the program’s cupboard was anything but pretty bare.
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  #114  
Old 01-20-2019, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I think all could have helped. AM was great at player development. I am not happy with Grant's player development.

There was nothing significantly wrong with the culture that could not be fixed by tightening the leash on the existing coaching staff and players.

We did not need to totally destroy what Archie built in order to correct some small culture problems.

It is not enough for Grant to eventually have some success, we are trying to have the same success on the same timetable as Archie, he needs to have the same success on the same timetable. Do not tell me that Archie left the cupboard bare, that is nonsense. Grant should not get extra time to be successful, he took over a program that had been to 4 straight NCAAT's, the program had all the momentum in the world when he took over.
Since the cupboard was not bare in your mind, name your starting five LAST year? You are not allowed to count Jalen Crutcher since he is a CAG recruit. Next, explain to me how that starting five gets to the NCAA? Or even NIT?
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  #115  
Old 01-20-2019, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
It is not enough for Grant to eventually have some success, we are trying to have the same success on the same timetable as Archie, he needs to have the same success on the same timetable.
Fair enough, Archie was 17-14 overall and 7-9 in conference in his second year, in which he had 5 upperclassmen. AG is 12-6 / 4-1 in his second year, in which he has 3 upperclassmen.

If AG goes 5-9 the rest of the way, you can say he's not on the same timetable as Archie. Until then, try being positive about something every now and then.
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Since the cupboard was not bare in your mind, name your starting five LAST year? You are not allowed to count Jalen Crutcher since he is a CAG recruit. Next, explain to me how that starting five gets to the NCAA? Or even NIT?
My guess on his answer is that they don’t miss a beat and make the NCAA last year had they hired an Archie assistant.
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Old 01-20-2019, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
My guess on his answer is that they don’t miss a beat and make the NCAA last year had they hired an Archie assistant.
Who starts? Who are the main contributors?
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  #118  
Old 01-20-2019, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SLUFLYER View Post
Agreed. I actually forgot JD was already in the pipeline. Even with JD, it would be hard to make a valid argument that the program’s cupboard was anything but pretty bare.
Agreed back atcha!
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  #119  
Old 01-20-2019, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Totally disagree. That is exactly what Butler, VCU, and Xavier have done.

The vast majority of the last several hc's at those 3 schools have had almost no head coaching experience. Rhoades, Wade, and Holtmann were the only ones that had more than 1 year of hc experience...not Grant, not Capel, not Smart, not Staak, not Gillen, not Prosser, not Matta, not Miller, not Mack, not Steele, not Collier, not Stevens, not Lickliter, not Miller, and not Jordan.

The program was not broken and did not need to be fixed when Archie left.

Grant is in his 11th year as a hc, what have you seen so far that leads you to believe that he will do as well as or better than Archie/take us to the next level?

And what other posts of mine do you have a problem with? Be specific.

A response to this post would be appreciated.
I’ve have pointed out some of such posts in the past and longtimefan just responded. I’m done wasting any more time responding to any of your posts.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Who starts? Who are the main contributors?
I have no idea. In my opinion, it’s not even worth thinking through. I was just offering a supposition on what he might base his perspective on.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:13 PM
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ud2 is a troll and nobody should waste their time replying.
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  #122  
Old 01-21-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Sticks 'n Stearns View Post
Fair enough, Archie was 17-14 overall and 7-9 in conference in his second year, in which he had 5 upperclassmen. AG is 12-6 / 4-1 in his second year, in which he has 3 upperclassmen.

If AG goes 5-9 the rest of the way, you can say he's not on the same timetable as Archie. Until then, try being positive about something every now and then.
I'll take it even farther. Mid-way thru Archie's third season there was a lot of doubt about his coaching ability. There was plenty of discussion on here about him, a lot of it negative. I remember a game at St Joseph's which the Flyers lost. Late in the game Dumb and Dumber were caught by camera laughing it up having a good ole time. That became the moment when I'd had enough of Miller. I thought he was a bust. A month later or so, they were an Elite 8 team.

A certain fan on here needs to learn about the concept of "context." If you look at the entire picture of the time AG has been head coach at UD objectively, there is zero way of making everything as clear cut as UD2 is attempting to make it. This team is miles apart from last year's and the talent pipeline that AG has coming it is stronger than ever before. And regarding the argument that he can't develop players? Laughable. Crutchen says hi. Landers never saw the court with Archie, now he is the team's leader. Ummm, have you seen Obi play? Jordan Davis? Mikesell has become a pretty nice player.

I guess Archie should be fired at Indiana. His team is going backwards.

I can't believe this is even a discussion.
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  #123  
Old 01-21-2019, 10:28 AM
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In 2012-2013, the A10 sent 5 teams the NCAA's and 3 teams to the NIT. You're not going to find a real meaningful comparison by looking just at A-10 records.
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Old 01-21-2019, 10:37 AM
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There are people arguing the "cupboard was bare?" That's really incredible.

Archie recruited 4 of our current starting 5 (Mikesell, Trey, Josh, and JD). He got Kostas who was drafted. He recruited DD and XW. What ended up happening with X could not be predicted. At the time the cupboard was left he was a prized piece moving forward.

I would say the cupboard, especially how it was perceived at the time, was the opposite of bare: Josh, JD, DD, X, Ryan, Kostas, Trey. On paper that is an ncaa tournament team (albeit one w/out a true PG).
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  #125  
Old 01-21-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
In 2012-2013, the A10 sent 5 teams the NCAA's and 3 teams to the NIT. You're not going to find a real meaningful comparison by looking just at A-10 records.
Then look at overall record. Archie went 17-14. AG is 12-6 and likely to better that by at least a game or two. Bottom line: Some people — UD2 leading the way — simply don’t want to give Grant a chance. Their minds are made up, so they just troll the board. Pathetic, really. Let’s see where we are after this season and next. That will be a truer measure of where the program is headed.
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  #126  
Old 01-21-2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
There are people arguing the "cupboard was bare?" That's really incredible.

Archie recruited 4 of our current starting 5 (Mikesell, Trey, Josh, and JD). He got Kostas who was drafted. He recruited DD and XW. What ended up happening with X could not be predicted. At the time the cupboard was left he was a prized piece moving forward.

I would say the cupboard, especially how it was perceived at the time, was the opposite of bare: Josh, JD, DD, X, Ryan, Kostas, Trey. On paper that is an ncaa tournament team (albeit one w/out a true PG).
Did you not see turnover-machine Darryl Davis play? You had NCAA hopes with Jordan Davis as an untested freshman? Ryan facing hip surgery and Josh just back from a serious ankle injury that cost him most of a season? Trey who barely logged a minute or two a game? Kostas a paper-thin project? That was NOT an NCAA tournament team on paper or in anyone’s wildest imagination. Maybe the cupboard wasn’t totally bare, but there were cobwebs in the corner.

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  #127  
Old 01-21-2019, 11:05 AM
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Regarding the bare cupboard last year

I am sure I am butchering this statistic so someone who knows can correct it, but didn't the TV guys say our team last year had like the fourth fewest returning minutes per game in the country of all NCAA teams
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  #128  
Old 01-21-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
There are people arguing the "cupboard was bare?" That's really incredible.

Archie recruited 4 of our current starting 5 (Mikesell, Trey, Josh, and JD). He got Kostas who was drafted. He recruited DD and XW. What ended up happening with X could not be predicted. At the time the cupboard was left he was a prized piece moving forward.

I would say the cupboard, especially how it was perceived at the time, was the opposite of bare: Josh, JD, DD, X, Ryan, Kostas, Trey. On paper that is an ncaa tournament team (albeit one w/out a true PG).
This is a somewhat fair perspective, although I guess it's determined by how people interpret "bare". Looking at just the above, Mikesell was out injured, X was no show, Kostas, although talented was much more of a project and was drafted on potential and name and was a me first guy. Sans Josh, none of that group had ANY experience, so expectations were a big question mark. PLUS, he lost basically an entire recruiting class and was forced to piece mail one together at the last minute.

My main points on suggesting the cupboard was bare are based on the following: loss of recruits and lack of returning experience.
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  #129  
Old 01-21-2019, 11:21 AM
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Recruits are one thing .... Players are another

So if the discussion on bare cupboard or not is based solely on a 'recruit' and not a player we should have had tOSU in the college playoff as one of the four.

They have/had multiple 4 and 5 star recruits on their roster for many years. And continue to have them within the program. Yet, unfortunately they have not had enough 'players' on the roster to make it year after year ...

Mikesell, Trey, Josh, and JDavis .... of the 4 mentioned remembering Archie's last season Mikesell and Trey were not factors as impact players. We didn't know what to make of either of those 2. Little did we know that Mikesell was having significant hip issues ... and Trey rarely saw the floor. Based on those 2 alone seems to be farfetched to think either 'on paper' or otherwise we had the makings of a tournament team going forward.

And to think we had no reliable, steady, assured point guard. How you think a team can be anything close to tournament caliper ... foggy bottom thinking for sure. Add in all the other head cases there were on the team .... Kostas was one of them.

I mean that only in the sense he didn't want to be in a school ... any school. He was convinced that he could be somewhere else and I'm sure his older brother at least told him that he had a chance to be somewhere else after it became clear school was not for him. Surely you have known of someone that felt the same way ... another direction rather than being in college I have ... they don't see the benefit it is (or was) what is turned out to be. I do not believe under Archie that the Kostas situation would have turned out any different.

I think at best Archie was facing a crap-shoot team composition. So he had a few players and a few recruits.

Like playing 5 card poker 2 cards in your hand and 3 down .... what do you bet on?
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  #130  
Old 01-21-2019, 11:45 AM
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Talking

Let this thread be a warning - we're only only two+ months away from the off-season rubbish.

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  #131  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Regarding the bare cupboard last year

I am sure I am butchering this statistic so someone who knows can correct it, but didn't the TV guys say our team last year had like the fourth fewest returning minutes per game in the country of all NCAA teams
I remember seeing shocka43 cite those statistics last year, but I’m not sure the thread in which he cited them. But as I recall, we had lost 70% or more of nearly every meaningful stat (minutes played, points, rebounds, assists, etc.) from 2016-17. So, the cupboard may not have been completely bare, but there were a lot more dishes in the dishwasher than there were in the china cabinet.
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
Since the cupboard was not bare in your mind, name your starting five LAST year? You are not allowed to count Jalen Crutcher since he is a CAG recruit. Next, explain to me how that starting five gets to the NCAA? Or even NIT?
UD2....I'm still waiting on your starting five last year? And your analysis (you seem like an analytical kind of guy based on your posting history) on how that starting five makes the NCAA last year. Still waiting.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by springborofan View Post
UD2....I'm still waiting on your starting five last year? And your analysis (you seem like an analytical kind of guy based on your posting history) on how that starting five makes the NCAA last year. Still waiting.
Get in line - I asked him back in October which Archie assistant should have been hired instead of AG (since that is his stance). Still waiting for an answer as to which one was ready for it.

Reasonable questions often go unanswered.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MNFats View Post
Get in line - I asked him back in October which Archie assistant should have been hired instead of AG (since that is his stance). Still waiting for an answer as to which one was ready for it.

Reasonable questions often go unanswered.
From the IU message board

Should fire Ostrom who doesn't do anything but recruit project players from Minnesota and hire Alford, pay him a million a year and make him offensive coordinator/associate head coach/head coach for the Big Ten Tournament and FT shooting guru
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:16 PM
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Tough to speculate on what Archie would have done last year but possible X. Williams would be a factor and based on the recruiting thread from spring 17 he was looking at people with a full roster so possible someone could have left and Jaaron Simmons might have been the PG
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Old 01-23-2019, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Tough to speculate on what Archie would have done last year but possible X. Williams would be a factor and based on the recruiting thread from spring 17 he was looking at people with a full roster so possible someone could have left and Jaaron Simmons might have been the PG
Speculation is easy. Knowing the unknowable is really tough.
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Old 01-27-2019, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
Svoboda
Williams
Pierce
Crosby
Kostas

Please tell me which one of these guys helps us this year more than being a warm body?

Kostas doesn't count...he wasn't staying and was a problem in house
Williams...didn't have the intestinal fortitude to play here...problem in house
Other three were nothing more than warm bodies on the sideline.

I am in the same boat as The Fly. I have my concerns about late in game coaching. I do not have ANY concerns with the level of talent CAG is bringing in, his desire to clean house and change culture, his style of play with the players he wants/needs, his professional ability to represent the program well and keep moving them in the right direction.

CAG will continue to be successful here when he get a full compliment of players. His short term success will sit on the ability for him to make the right calls to put the limited bench in the best position to succeed.
Disagree about Kostas, had Archie been here, I think Kostas very well could have stayed beyond 1 year.

Again, I think all 5 could have helped, just because they did not help much in one year here, does not mean that they could not have helped in the future. And I think that AM very well may have been able to get more out of them than AG did.

AM was great at player development, Kavs and Benson made great strides in one year under AM. AM got useful minutes out of Wehrli for 2 years. I think that AM could have developed all 5 into at least useful contributors. I do not accept that they were just warm bodies. AM obviously recruited them because he felt that they could help.

I would like to know what was going on with Crosby, Williams, and Pierce. It seems strange that 3 players with no previous discipline problems all of a sudden have problems.

Look, I do not hate AG as a person, I am sure that he is a wonderful person, I just have criticisms of his coaching, and it just feels like the positive momentum that we gained under AM is just all slipping away, and I am skeptical that AG can at least keep us on the same level we were at under AM.
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Old 01-27-2019, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
And you thought/think one of Archie’s assistants would be doing better than AG.

You have posted some ridiculous stuff but this post is up there with one of your most ridiculous.
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Look at the below links of possible replacements, all mention Ostrom, Kuwik, and Griffin as candidates.

https://www.crimsonquarry.com/2017/3...istant-coaches

Crimsonquarry.com speculated that Kuwik would get the UD job.


https://www.midmajormadness.com/2017...ne-fife-flyers

https://www.daytondailynews.com/spor...8Hec7nIbilq0K/

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-...c1585zxmvw2gzx

The Sporting News only lists Kuwik.


https://m.herosports.com/news/archie...ent-coach-ahah

Herosports.com only lists Griffin or Ostrom


In addition, again, the poll that was on here had any of those 3 winning the poll.

I do not know why you consider 1 of those 3 to be such unacceptable candidates.

All 3 were well-qualified. Ostrom had 20 years of d1 administrative and coaching experience, Kuwik 18 years, and Griffin 15 years.

I do not know what the pecking order/inner workings at UD under Archie were. No pecking order was ever publically established. So, I can not say which 1 of the 3 should have been given the job.

I feel like either when Archie was hired a pecking order should have been established in the event that Archie was successful and moved on.

Or we should have hired an assistant when Archie was hired who we would have been comfortable promoting to hc.

Or after some time we could have designated 1 of the 3 as the associate hc/hc-in-waiting.

My personal preference was always for Griffin for no other reason than it seems like ex-players almost always get the hc jobs.

I would have been comfortable with any of the 3 getting the UD hc job. If they were good enough for Archie, then they were good enough for me, I highly value Archie's opinion.

I would have asked for Archie's input and then left the final decision to Neil and the hiring committee.

VCU hired Capel with only 2 years of assistant coaching experience. Similar for Stevens at Butler with 6 years, and Brandon Miller at Butler with 6 years.



Jim Boeheim raves about Griffin. Griffin is very well-regarded by the SU fans. Boeheim recommended Griffin to Archie, that was how Griffin got on Archie's staff.

Bob McKillop, the Davidson hc, Archie, and Thad Matta rave about Kuwik.

Archie raves about Ostrom.

I will concede that Ostrom may be more of a recruiter and less of an x's and o's guy, if people wanted to scratch Ostrom off the list for that reason, then I can understand that objection.

Udpride poll:

http://www.udpride.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30787

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Old 01-27-2019, 11:00 PM
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Comments on Griffin:


https://www.syracuse.com/orangebaske...ld_him_no.html:

"Allen is one of those guys who you never hear anybody say anything bad about,'' Welsh said. This was a key trait for an assistant whose main recruiting base was New York City. There are factions among the city's high schools and AAU programs, but Griffin seemed to navigate the divides with ease.

"Allen connects with people,'' Welsh said. "Whether it's a high school coach, an AAU coach, a recruit or the recruit's parents, he respects people and they return that respect. He was really well-liked in New York.''

What Griffin didn't know, though, was that Autry had been on the verge of taking an assistant coaching job at Dayton. Autry and his family were actually in Dayton when Boeheim called with his job offer.

Out of courtesy, Boeheim called Miller.

"I said to him 'I know you'll think I'm kidding, but there's a guy you should hire and I think he'll do a great job for you,'' Boeheim said.

So Miller called Griffin.

Griffin was in Florida, driving along a backroad between Tampa and West Palm Beach. It was night and very dark. He had his phone on GPS mode to make sure he didn't get lost.

"Arch calls me* and I have to pull over because the GPS goes away when a call comes in,'' Griffin said. "I pull into this gas station. It's dark and no one's around and I'm a little scared, but I had to take the call.''

By the end of the call, Miller said he wanted Griffin to come to Dayton.

"One of the luckiest breaks I've had in my life,'' Griffin said.

*https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/sp...QtwLxnnEmL55O/:

Boeheim on Griffin:

"I love Allen Griffin. He’s the best. The most unique thing (about him) is that he started as a sophomore and he had a pretty good year for us. But junior year I sat him and started somebody else and that normally (means) transfer or ‘I hate you! I’m not doing anything for you.’ But he worked right through it and ended up making big contributions.

He is one of the best I ever had.”

*https://www.democratandchronicle.com...ach/100140062/:

We are fortunate to be able to add someone of Allen's caliber to our program," Boeheim said. "In addition to the great familiarity he has with Syracuse basketball, he owns valuable experience gained coaching with other programs."


Griffin has coached guards, forwards and centers in college. SU says he'll work primarily with the centers. He will also be involved in recruiting and opponent scouting for the Orange. "Allen's a proven national recruiter," Boeheim added, "and he coached the big men at Dayton. He is a great fit for our staff."





Comments on Kuwik:

https://hoopdirt.com/davidson-staff-update/:

McKillop:

Kevin was a superb addition to our staff. I’m absolutely certain that he will be an outstanding head coach in the very near future.”

20 years of collegiate and administrative experience, including stops at Ohio University, Butler, Ohio State, and Dayton



*https://www.daytondailynews.com/spor...KP5CyDwYU8eSI/:

McKillop on adding Kuwik to his staff:


It’s like getting a top 50 recruit."

*https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sp...215487775.html:


Kevin has been more than superb for us,” Wildcats coach Bob McKillop said. “His assimilation and understanding of our system, in addition to the chemistry he established with our players and staff ... he embraced everything Davidson represents.”







Archie held a spot at IU for TO if TO did not get the UD job:

https://www.indystar.com/story/sport...rce/101504408/:


A longtime Dayton assistant, Ostrom was a candidate to replace new Indiana men's basketball coach Archie Miller as Flyers coach. But he also knew Miller was holding a door open for him in Bloomington. Ostrom interviewed for the Dayton job and waited.

“Coach Miller was kind enough to really support me in that process, so I did that," Ostrom said. “Then he basically said, ‘Whatever happens, you have an opportunity to come to IU when the time is right.’”

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Old 01-27-2019, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Look at the below links of possible replacements, all mention Ostrom, Kuwik, and Griffin as candidates.
yet here we are 2 years after the UD opening and no other AD in the country has hired one of them to lead a program

Great press doesn't always = great results. Izzo gushed about the BG hire and
Sporting News named him the "#1 Assistant On The Rise."
Athlon Sports' listed him as a "Top 10 Assistant."
Sports Illustrated referred to him as one of the top five assistants ready for a head coaching position.

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  #141  
Old 01-27-2019, 11:56 PM
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As far as whether Griffin was offered a spot on Archie's staff at IU is unclear. There was possible competition between Syracuse and IU for Griffin.

When Griffin took the SU job, per a SU writer, there were still 1 or 2 IU spots still unfilled. Read the comments from the writer in the comments section.

https://www.syracuse.com/orangebaske...yn_pickle.html


Griffin is from the NYC area, he is a better recruiting fit for SU than IU. It is possible that Archie waited to announce his full staff at once until after Griffin took the SU job in order to avoid the embarrassment of losing out on Griffin to SU.

In addition, Archie really wanted Griffin to take the SU job.

https://www.syracuse.com/orangebaske...ld_him_no.html:

"If Coach Boeheim offers you a job, take it,'' Miller said. "Or I'll push you out the door.''


Finally, this article says that Griffin had offers to go to either SU or IU.



https://247sports.com/college/syracu...tant-74915301/:



Miller recently took the job at Indiana where Griffin could have followed. Instead, he decided to come back to a place he called home for six seasons as a player and administrative assistant.


Another comment on Kuwik:

https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/sp...FgGQXk7dkYR7I/:



Minton said Kuwik was “highly recommended” by former Dayton men’s basketball coach Archie Miller and Thad Matta, who this month resigned as Ohio State’s coach

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Old 01-28-2019, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
yet here we are 2 years after the UD opening and no other AD in the country has hired one of them to lead a program

Great press doesn't always = great results. Izzo gushed about the BG hire and
Sporting News named him the "#1 Assistant On The Rise."
Athlon Sports' listed him as a "Top 10 Assistant."
Sports Illustrated referred to him as one of the top five assistants ready for a head coaching position.
Look, CE80 said it was "ridiculous" that Ostrom, Kuwik, or Griffin would have even been considered for the UD job.

I am just pointing out that McKillop, Boeheim, Matta, Miller, various websites, and udpride poll voters vigorously disagree with him on that point.

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Old 01-28-2019, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Disagree about Kostas, had Archie been here, I think Kostas very well could have stayed beyond 1 year.

Again, I think all 5 could have helped, just because they did not help much in one year here, does not mean that they could not have helped in the future. And I think that AM very well may have been able to get more out of them than AG did.

AM was great at player development, Kavs and Benson made great strides in one year under AM. AM got useful minutes out of Wehrli for 2 years. I think that AM could have developed all 5 into at least useful contributors. I do not accept that they were just warm bodies. AM obviously recruited them because he felt that they could help.

I would like to know what was going on with Crosby, Williams, and Pierce. It seems strange that 3 players with no previous discipline problems all of a sudden have problems.

Look, I do not hate AG as a person, I am sure that he is a wonderful person, I just have criticisms of his coaching, and it just feels like the positive momentum that we gained under AM is just all slipping away, and I am skeptical that AG can at least keep us on the same level we were at under AM.
Benson? Come on. Benson and Dillard spent more time smoking dope than worrying about being ball players. Benson doubled his minutes and doubled his PPG from being a sophomore to a junior/senior. That isn't player development, that is par for the course for a underclassman to an upperclassman. It was him and Kav in the paint. They both should have been 10ppg guys based on minutes available alone.

Kostas wasn't interested in being a college basketball player. Student is the first thing in student athlete and you weren't going to get a year two out of a guy with access to the best trainers and coaches in the country. Why do you think he was limited in playing time for a guy that apparently had so much skill?

Crosby...good kid that didn't have what it took to be more than at role player at a school like UD.

Pierce. Filler. Nothing more. Was a swing and a miss.

XW would have rather played Fortnite than be in the gym...hence why he quit.

It isn't strange that three players "all of a sudden" have issues. You want to know why there were guys washed? It's because AM permitted guys to run afoul as long as they were winning. Look at all the off the court stuff. That wasn't all by chance. That is because guys felt like they could do no wrong and AM perpetuated it. Take Morgan's Twitter feed for example....do you think that was silenced just by chance? That entire aura from the staff to the players may have produced some of the best on court results many have seen in their lifetime, but it didn't come without consequences. AM did contribute to another level of player. He definitely had many positives...but the "I can do what I want mentality" was from the top down and that isn't representative of UD.

AG came in and saw that aura and decided that he was going to change it. He knows UD and knows what is expected from a program and on how a UD player is going to carry themselves on and off the court. AG wasn't by accident. The cleaning out the trash wasn't by accident. Those were carry overs that thought the old AM way of doing whatever they wanted was going to fly. AG knows that in order to build and sustain a program you have to have a culture. I want you to find a team that gets along like the current players. They work together. They have fun on the court. There is leadership. You have none of the drama that you did in season's past. Do you think that is by accident?

I have concerns about late game coaching. There are many that do. But I can look past that due to everything else that is positive. There are many more positives than negatives. AM had a core group of guys that were and will be one of the best groups ever to hit the court for UD. With that said, they were the focus. Not the contingency plan after they graduated. Ask anyone who has ever played the game and they will tell you that you aren't going to replace 70% of lost minutes effectively with guys who played the other 30% the last few seasons. It isn't going to happen.
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  #144  
Old 01-28-2019, 07:32 AM
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Great post Shocka...the truth hurts and I'm glad you said it because it's 100% accurate.

I was half joking this weekend about IU's losing streak and how Miller is probably trying to convince IU that he needs to scour the juvenile detention centers for 'talent' so the Hoosiers can make an E8 run in 2020-21...but as we all know, the IU AD won't budge. Miller's in trouble. The BIG isn't going to show him any mercy.
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:31 AM
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Post of the season, shocka43.

In a program like UD’s, at a school like UD, “culture” is enormous, and for all the success and good kids AM brought in (ex. Sanford, Sibert, Big Steve), he swung and missed on his share of guys, for a variety of reasons. And I appreciate the success we had during the AM years, but I also appreciate how AG is building a program and culture that’s consistent with the goals of UD.

Will we have the same on-court success under AG that we had under AM? Who knows? But will we have the same offcourt issues under AG that we had under AM? I suspect not. And I’d rather have decent success with a clean program than outstanding success with a police blotter on standby.
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  #146  
Old 01-28-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
Look, CE80 said it was "ridiculous" that Ostrom, Kuwik, or Griffin would have even been considered for the UD job.

I am just pointing out that McKillop, Boeheim, Matta, Miller, various websites, and udpride poll voters vigorously disagree with him on that point.

You're not making much of a point. If these guys are such great head coaching candidates, I'm assuming someone would have grabbed them up by now. Where are they head coaches?
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Old 01-28-2019, 09:55 AM
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UD2 is a broken record who passes off “coach gush” as qualification for a D-1 job. No coach is going to say a negative word about the staff HE assembled. So as we’ve pointed out to no avail to his deaf ears, the real evidence is plain as day — not one single school has offered any of Archie’s assistants a head coaching gig.

Oh wait, Kuwik got one just prior to the Davidson assistant’s job — AT A HIGH SCHOOL.
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Old 01-28-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
UD2 is a broken record who passes off “coach gush” as qualification for a D-1 job. No coach is going to say a negative word about the staff HE assembled. So as we’ve pointed out to no avail to his deaf ears, the real evidence is plain as day — not one single school has offered any of Archie’s assistants a head coaching gig.

Oh wait, Kuwik got one just prior to the Davidson assistant’s job — AT A HIGH SCHOOL.
A good point, but there's no need to pick on Kuwik alone. It's not exactly like we're the Cradle of Coaches here. From the 2018-19 Media Guide, here's the complete list of UD Assistant Coaches who have also been Head Coaches (either before, after, or before-and-after their stints at UD):
-Bob Beyer
-Dave Bollwinkel
-Mo Cassara
-Pat Haley
-Dan Hipsher
-Ron Jirsa
-Tom McConnell
-Anthony Solomon
-Pete Strickland
-Paul Westhead
-Dave Wojcik

And, of course
-Don Donoher (who assisted under Blackburn before taking the HC job in 1964)

In addition, Butch Carter (AC under JOB) had NBA HC experience.

This is the complete list. No omissions or exceptions.

Hopefully, that will change for the better in the future, but John McVay had a more impressive coaching tree than that for the football Flyers in the late '60s/early '70s, so it's obvious that having a fertile coaching tree isn't a key to success for our program.

I'm just saying, don't be too hard on Kuwik. He's obviously in a pretty crowded boat, full of "Former UD Assistants who've never been a HC at the D-I level".
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Old 01-28-2019, 01:38 PM
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I’m not picking on Kuwik. I like the guy, and his personal story is both heartbreaking and inspiring. I wouldn’t make fun of him — just used him to make the point that no one is breaking down the door to hire Archie’s assistants despite UD2’s insistence that we somehow missed the boat in not hiring one over Anthony Grant.

Speaking of assistants, wasn’t Shaka Smart here briefly in some basketball position? And given your criteria, I guess Donnie Jones also makes the list.

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Old 01-28-2019, 01:44 PM
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Yes, Director of Operations
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Old 01-28-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
This is the complete list. No omissions or exceptions.
Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
Speaking of assistants, wasn’t Shaka Smart here briefly in some basketball position? And given your criteria, I guess Donnie Jones also makes the list.

Oops.
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Old 01-28-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
I’m not picking on Kuwik. I like the guy, and his personal story is both heartbreaking and inspiring. I wouldn’t make fun of him — just used him to make the point that no one is breaking down the door to hire Archie’s assistants despite UD2’s insistence that we somehow missed the boat in not hiring one over Anthony Grant.

Speaking of assistants, wasn’t Shaka Smart here briefly in some basketball position? And given your criteria, I guess Donnie Jones also makes the list.
Regarding the hiring of our former assistants in general: understood.

Also, it looks like you should become Editor of the Media Guide, because you definitely caught an error on their part:
-On Page 9 of this year's Media Guide, it clearly says Donnie Jones was UCF Head Coach from 2010-16, and Marshall Head Coach from 2007-10. Yet,
-On Page 112 of the same, it denotes each AC who's been a HC with a funky, cross-shaped tick mark, but there's no such mark next to Donnie's name.

Imagine that! Facts being omitted or misstated in a publication!
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Old 01-28-2019, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Oops.
UD apparently doesn't consider "Director of Ops" to be an Assistant Coaching position.

Also, it's not my fault the people publishing the Media Guide didn't do their homework.
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Old 01-28-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
UD apparently doesn't consider "Director of Ops" to be an Assistant Coaching position.

Also, it's not my fault the people publishing the Media Guide didn't do their homework.

Again, not to pick on Kuwik, but in that case he didn't even get an assistant coaching job when he left UD. Davidson hired him as the Director of Basketball Operations. All we're saying is that ud2 is being ridiculous when he says our assistants were such great head coaching material and one of them should have been hired.
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  #155  
Old 01-28-2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Again, not to pick on Kuwik, but in that case he didn't even get an assistant coaching job when he left UD. Davidson hired him as the Director of Basketball Operations. All we're saying is that ud2 is being ridiculous when he says our assistants were such great head coaching material and one of them should have been hired.
Our assistants would not have even been sniffing a head coaching gig outside of 300 College Park Drive. Did they warrant discussion to take the lead at UD? Absolutely, they did. But in my opinion, that only would have made sense if there was an undeniable stable of current players and incoming recruits that appeared to have such an upside that we simply wanted everything to remain the same and a leader that everyone wanted and could get behind so that nothing was really changing. We didn't have that situation at UD when Archie left. We were losing essentially all of our players with any playing time and the future (the next year or two) was somewhat uncertain even if Archie was staying.
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BeckysTXA (01-28-2019)
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Old 01-28-2019, 03:21 PM
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I came in neutral on Grant I knew the claims about Bana program. But I dig what I'm seeing. Hes a disciplinarian. Could have won more games last year by being a wuss and catering to X William's and Kostas.

This year Matos injury is good for 2 games lost.

Hes improved OBI, so you cant totally say development isn't his thing. Ryan is getting there. JC has had IT, just occasional lapses.


Our real struggle has been outside shooting and Jordan Davis this year. Cohill is slow to develop but at this point is trying to Win and get somewhere this year.

I wont complain. To date.
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  #157  
Old 01-28-2019, 03:37 PM
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I understand the anybody but Anthony bandwagon, but let's stretch reality. The argument that the assistants were much better is weak. I understand that other programs have done and it helps continuity. The sudden change of culture and philosophy is one of the reasons for the first two year struggles. Archie had the same thing happen when he took over. So did BG. Got it. When coaches change, the transition causes the program to go backwards or sideways for a while.

Archie had assistants who stayed with him during his entire tenure. Normally, when success occurs, assistant coaches are the target of coaching recruiters; not just the head coach. None of those coaches were offered jobs while at UD. Ostrom applied for the head coaching job as I believe. Afterwards, I never saw their names in any interviews for head coaching jobs either. Griffin replaced an assistant who left because he was tired of waiting for Jim B to retire. if he plans to become the head coach at Syracuse, he will have a wait.

I know all three of those guys and they are terrific people. For whatever reason, they have not been considered for head coaching jobs. Not just UD, but the entire D1 basketball environment.
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shocka43 (01-29-2019)
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Old 01-28-2019, 04:18 PM
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This seems like the perfect time to mention that Ray Harper might be available to coach.
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Old 01-28-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Widget View Post
This seems like the perfect time to mention that Ray Harper might be available to coach.
Ah but even Ray has had his detractors.

https://247sports.com/college/wester...rper-71357185/
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Jay O'Leary (01-29-2019)
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I understand the anybody but Anthony bandwagon, but let's stretch reality. The argument that the assistants were much better is weak. I understand that other programs have done and it helps continuity. The sudden change of culture and philosophy is one of the reasons for the first two year struggles. Archie had the same thing happen when he took over. So did BG. Got it. When coaches change, the transition causes the program to go backwards or sideways for a while.

Archie had assistants who stayed with him during his entire tenure. Normally, when success occurs, assistant coaches are the target of coaching recruiters; not just the head coach. None of those coaches were offered jobs while at UD. Ostrom applied for the head coaching job as I believe. Afterwards, I never saw their names in any interviews for head coaching jobs either. Griffin replaced an assistant who left because he was tired of waiting for Jim B to retire. if he plans to become the head coach at Syracuse, he will have a wait.

I know all three of those guys and they are terrific people. For whatever reason, they have not been considered for head coaching jobs. Not just UD, but the entire D1 basketball environment.
Sometimes people are better in support roles. I think that was true, no matter how good of guys they are and their skillset That's not taking anything away from them.

Nothing against any of those guys, but given the typical personally of college head coaches, it is hard to emerge when you are in the support role unless you catch a break. There are 3 it 4 times the amount of assistant coaching roles in country. Not everyone will get a crack at a HC spot. If UD is a top 50 school in the country they should be getting top 50 talent. I doubt any of those guys were top 50 in the country. Dayton may be much higher than the 50 in pay and totality of the job. I believe that and I think the powers to be believe that too.
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