13,435 reasons why we’ve lost our two games thus far…

[Flyerferd]

We have plenty of other threads to discuss Basketball reasons for defeat, but I want to point to one that hasn’t been discussed much. as we hit a couple of big threes last night, I thought to myself, how different with this game be if we had a big crowd? I really think no juice in the arena is a factor. Vegas backs me up on this. From what I’ve read, a true home crowd can be worth at minimum 2.5 and up to six points depending on the venue. I would argue it’s worth closer to six an ours. how many points have we lost by in our two defeats? 2. also, historically, over the course of three coaches during my fandom, where have we struggled the most? places with lethargic crowds. I can’t tell you the number of times I have watched games that we should’ve won even on the road, where we have choked. In most of those cases, the crowds were lackadaisical.
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[Chris R]

The UD fan base is as integral and woven into the success of Flyer basketball as any program in the nation. Take it away and you literally steal the program identity. The crowd is our great equalizer and turbo button. Kansas is still going to be Kansas in an empty Allen Fieldhouse because their talent is so strong. Fordham will still be Fordham because they never had crowds anyway. But at UD, the loss is most profound because the fan base is such an anomaly for a program like this.

It's not an excuse. But it's a reason.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[T-Bone 84]

Watching the Ole Miss game 2 Saturdays ago, I remember Crutcher hitting a 3 that (I think) tied the game, and the sound people at The Arena had generic ambient crowd noise going in the background. I told my wife, if that was an Arena crowd, the roof would have blown off the place. As it was, it was more like the fake crowd murmur that Burbank used to play on his show to simulate a gathering (“watermelon, cantaloupe; watermelon, cantaloupe”). Not even close to the same effect.
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[N2663R]

Originally Posted by Chris R The UD fan base is as integral and woven into the success of Flyer basketball as any program in the nation. Take it away and you literally steal the program identity. The crowd is our great equalizer and turbo button. Kansas is still going to be Kansas in an empty Allen Fieldhouse because their talent is so strong. Fordham will still be Fordham because they never had crowds anyway. But at UD, the loss is most profound because the fan base is such an anomaly for a program like this. It's not an excuse. But it's a reason.

I was at the game last night. It was a very “interesting” experience. According to most reports, the maximum number of allowable attendees at the arena is 300. There were 125 attendees - at best. They had red tape on the seats that could be occupied, and there were a lot of empty red seats. Seating is limited to the side opposite the benches, and primarily between the baselines, in the 100 and 200 level sections only. Everyone was at least 15’ apart. There were 4 girls in the student section, one in a chicken costume. They pump in white crowd noise to fill the void. The pregame routine is the same, just without the cheerleaders. They had an intro video, but it was watered down. During the game, there was virtually no crowd support. But honestly, how much noise can 100+, 60+ year olds make? Conversely, the LaSalle bench was fairly animated in the second half. They were chanting “defense”, cheering, rooting on their teammates. Honestly, our bench was dead. Per Chris’s comments, I think our team relies on the crowd and doesn’t know how to generate its own enthusiasm. I sad this before, this year is going to require mental toughness. A toughness we don’t yet possess. That said, Amzil saved us from an even worse embarrassment. He may be our savior this season.

I have pictures from the arena last night if anyone is interested - they are too large to upload here - Chris, any thoughts? If anyone has any other questions about the ongoing arena experience, just ask.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[zmz723]

Were they serving beer?

[longtimefan]

I've been wondering since 300 people are allowed why only about 100 have attended each game. I believe the first game had only 50-60. Is this UD's decision or do more people simply not want to go. If this is UD's decision, why? They have requested a variance so they are willing to allow more fans in the future. Why not 300 now? And, N2663R, how did you get to go?

[TX Flyer]

So we’re saying the fans make the players better? Because they arnt rated as high as Kansas players out of high school they can’t play in an empty arena. I guess when we go to Fordham we can expect a L every year

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[Chris R]

Rose Hill is a home game.

[maddog07]

And I thought it was because we have little inside game. Thanks
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[Jeff]

Originally Posted by maddog07 And I thought it was because we have little inside game. Thanks Posted via Mobile Device

OR...the fact that they shot

65% in the 2nd half

Might have something to do with it.

Perhaps if we could put those 13,435 on the floor it would have helped.

[Monster Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff OR...the fact that they shot 65% in the 2nd half Might have something to do with it. Perhaps if we could put those 13,435 on the floor it would have helped.

Also, LaSalle scored on 20 straight offensive possessions. Somehow, in spite of poor play, we were still in position to win this game.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[Monster Man]

Originally Posted by Monster Man Also, LaSalle scored on 20 straight offensive possessions. Somehow, in spite of poor play, we were still in position to win this game.

Not correct information, thanks to Figgie for clearing this up in a different thread. It seemed like 20 though!

[Lifelong Flyer Fan]

Originally Posted by N2663R I was at the game last night. It was a very “interesting” experience. According to most reports, the maximum number of allowable attendees at the arena is 300. There were 125 attendees - at best. They had red tape on the seats that could be occupied, and there were a lot of empty red seats. Seating is limited to the side opposite the benches, and primarily between the baselines, in the 100 and 200 level sections only. Everyone was at least 15’ apart. There were 4 girls in the student section, one in a chicken costume. They pump in white crowd noise to fill the void. The pregame routine is the same, just without the cheerleaders. They had an intro video, but it was watered down. During the game, there was virtually no crowd support. But honestly, how much noise can 100+, 60+ year olds make? Conversely, the LaSalle bench was fairly animated in the second half. They were chanting “defense”, cheering, rooting on their teammates. Honestly, our bench was dead. Per Chris’s comments, I think our team relies on the crowd and doesn’t know how to generate its own enthusiasm. I sad this before, this year is going to require mental toughness. A toughness we don’t yet possess. That said, Amzil saved us from an even worse embarrassment. He may be our savior this season. I have pictures from the arena last night if anyone is interested - they are too large to upload here - Chris, any thoughts? If anyone has any other questions about the ongoing arena experience, just ask.

Thanks for posting this. I was disappointed that I could hear the LaSalle players cheering and could not hear the Dayton fans. I thought maybe it was mic placement and was hoping I was mistaken.
I can tell you this 70+ year old can make a lot of noise (ask those that sit around me),but unfortunately I doubt I get an invite to MBB this year. I am holding out hope for WBB.
I would like to see pics.
Go Flyers!

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by Lifelong Flyer Fan Thanks for posting this. I was disappointed that I could hear the LaSalle players cheering and could not hear the Dayton fans. I thought maybe it was mic placement and was hoping I was mistaken. I can tell you this 70+ year old can make a lot of noise (ask those that sit around me),but unfortunately I doubt I get an invite to MBB this year. I am holding out hope for WBB. I would like to see pics. Go Flyers!

This almost-60-year-old can be quite a loudmouth, too, but I too am not expecting to get a chance to support my team in person this year. I could even bring my trombone and quadruple the decibel level, but alas, that’s probably not in the cards, either.
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	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[UDTradition]

Originally Posted by Chris R The UD fan base is as integral and woven into the success of Flyer basketball as any program in the nation. Take it away and you literally steal the program identity. The crowd is our great equalizer and turbo button. Kansas is still going to be Kansas in an empty Allen Fieldhouse because their talent is so strong. Fordham will still be Fordham because they never had crowds anyway. But at UD, the loss is most profound because the fan base is such an anomaly for a program like this. It's not an excuse. But it's a reason.

It's not an excuse, but it is clearly rationalization.

I would hazard a guess that every team in NCAA basketball (except some weird exceptions) play better and are more successful at home. This is just a guess of course

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by UDTradition It's not an excuse, but it is clearly rationalization. I would hazard a guess that every team in NCAA basketball (except some weird exceptions) play better and are more successful at home. This is just a guess of course

Yes, but I would hazard a guess that our “home court advantage” is among the top 20-25 nationally every year. So, the absence of our home crowd hurts worse than the absence of a home crowd at, say, Millett Hall, where the Miami “formerly-known-as-a-type-of-potato” squad is used to having only friends and family in attendance.
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[UDTradition]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 Yes, but I would hazard a guess that our “home court advantage” is among the top 20-25 nationally every year. So, the absence of our home crowd hurts worse than the absence of a home crowd at, say, Millett Hall, where the Miami “formerly-known-as-a-type-of-potato” squad is used to having only friends and family in attendance. Posted via Mobile Device

"So you're telling me there's a chance" that UD is only as good as they are because of US?

[Flyerferd]

Originally Posted by UDTradition "So you're telling me there's a chance" that UD is only as good as they are because of US?

As good as about 6 points better with us yes... which would’ve resulted in us winning our other 2 games.
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[shocka43]

If you don't think that UD's home advantage, or many other home advantages in the country, don't have a 3-7point swing in games I don't know what to tell you.

Yes, we have limitations with the roster. There is no arguing that. There also is no argument that there is no discussion of coaches and TV crews talking about UD Arena being an intimidating place to play in this year.

Everyone is playing in the equivalent of a high school gym this year.

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by Flyerferd As good as about 6 points better with us yes... which would’ve resulted in us winning our other 2 games. Posted via Mobile Device

Thank you!
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[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by Flyerferd As good as about 6 points better with us yes... which would’ve resulted in us winning our other 2 games. Posted via Mobile Device

Actually, maybe not 6 points better. Probably a combination of Flyers being 3 points better and our opponents being 3 points worse.

Seriously, I've always wondered when it comes to home court advantage, how much does the crowd lift the home team vs demoralize and intimidate the visitors.

[Lifelong Flyer Fan]

It isn't just the missing home crowd and it isn't just that Dayton fans can't travel to away games. Last year our players said they enjoyed the crowds on the road. Their away crowds last year were larger than normal because Dayton was the big game and people wanted to see Obi. The team thrived on those crowds especially the more hostile ones.

[MrFlyerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Smitty10 Actually, maybe not 6 points better. Probably a combination of Flyers being 3 points better and our opponents being 3 points worse. Seriously, I've always wondered when it comes to home court advantage, how much does the crowd lift the home team vs demoralize and intimidate the visitors.

In some cases, I would lean toward +10 for the Flyers and +4/6 for opponents, at least at the start. Bonaventure, in particular, always seems to shoot lights out to start games at UD Arena. They feed on our crowd until we wear them down.

[CJ#4]

So why wouldn't UD give any empty seats among those 300 to Red Scare students who would make some noise? If the 20 people on a team bench can do enough to affect the game's atmosphere, surely another 150 rowdy students could have an impact?

	Red Scare RED SCARE University of Dayton student fan club, the largest student organization on campus. Run by students for students. Active members show their school spirit by attending Flyer athletic events to earn Spirit Points. Students who accumulate the most points receive priority for men's basketball tickets. The Red Scare enthusiasm has helped make home games for all UD Tier-1 sports intimidating for opponents.

[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by CJ#4 So why wouldn't UD give any empty seats among those 300 to Red Scare students who would make some noise? If the 20 people on a team bench can do enough to affect the game's atmosphere, surely another 150 rowdy students could have an impact?

I asked a similar question in post #6. They are permitted to have 300 fans but are allowing only about 100. Why are they asking for a variance when they won't even allow the current limit of 300?

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by CJ#4 So why wouldn't UD give any empty seats among those 300 to Red Scare students who would make some noise? If the 20 people on a team bench can do enough to affect the game's atmosphere, surely another 150 rowdy students could have an impact?

Originally Posted by longtimefan I asked a similar question in post #6. They are permitted to have 300 fans but are allowing only about 100. Why are they asking for a variance when they won't even allow the current limit of 300?

Just my observations here, but first, I think the students are still on break, and who knows when they will return. Once back, some will avoid games, others will not obey the rules, so it’s a crapshoot with them. Also, it looked like the only seats available are between the baselines, so they would be intermixed with the sweaters.
As for the total attendance, I think it is 300. I think tickets are being allocated to those season ticket holders who opted in. Just because you got tickets, doesn’t mean you will go. I guessing a lot don’t and they don’t pass their tickets on to someone who will go. For a lot of people, the games are a social event and if your friends aren’t going, you aren’t either. I don’t think UD is artificially reducing attendance.

[UDTradition]

Originally Posted by zmz723 Were they serving beer?

I think the announcer claimed is was "near beer"...