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  #1  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:04 PM
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All-time UD top ten

I noticed that, preceding Friday's game on TV, there is a half-hour show listed as UD Top Ten all-time. I look forward to seeing who is on their list, but here is mine, not in any particular order....as I thought of them, but roughly chronological.

Monk Meineke
Bill Uhl
John Horan
Donald Smith
Johnny Davis
Henry Finkel
Don May
Jim Paxson (the younger)
Roosevelt Chapman
Roger Brown (even though he only played on the freshman team - he was a
Flyer, probably the best ever)
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:19 PM
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I say start with the All-Americans
May
Meineke
Paxson
Uhl

Then the top NBA careers
Bucky Bockhorn
Hank Finkel
Johnny Davis
Negele Knight

And then Career Stat Leader
Roosevelt Chapman

And then my personal favorite
Scoochie Smith

Brian Roberts should also be on the list as #10.1
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:26 PM
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Dayton Daily News top 10 Flyers from Detroit had Negele Knight #1 and Johnny Davis #2. If they had something to do with the list, don't expect to see JD on there unless NK is. Don't jump on the messenger, I think JD deserved #1.
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:07 PM
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Thumbs up Difficult to pick

Don, I suspect you are an old timer (like me), but I really like your list. I think it should be a top 20 or 25 list ... maybe pre Arena and post. You won me over when you listed Roger Brown (with spot on comment). My heart still bleeds over what "his penalties" were at UD and later. What a sham and embarassment to UD and the NCAA and Olympic Committee.


Originally Posted by Don View Post
I noticed that, preceding Friday's game on TV, there is a half-hour show listed as UD Top Ten all-time. I look forward to seeing who is on their list, but here is mine, not in any particular order....as I thought of them, but roughly chronological.

Monk Meineke
Bill Uhl
John Horan
Donald Smith
Johnny Davis
Henry Finkel
Don May
Jim Paxson (the younger)
Roosevelt Chapman
Roger Brown (even though he only played on the freshman team - he was a Flyer, probably the best ever)
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Dayton Daily News top 10 Flyers from Detroit had Negele Knight #1 and Johnny Davis #2. If they had something to do with the list, don't expect to see JD on there unless NK is. Don't jump on the messenger, I think JD deserved #1.
Knight and Davis were both great guards. I would rate Davis ahead of Knight. My opinion.
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:32 PM
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Iíve only followed since Ď94 but the best Iíve seen would be Brian Roberts. He might be the only one in my time to make the top 10. Some serious history here.
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Old 11-06-2017, 10:14 PM
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I read it, but i cannot in good faith accept any Top 10 Flyer list that does not include Ryan Perryman. I know less then nothing about these guys from the 50's and 60's and i know very little about guys like Johnny Davis and Donald Smith. But i didnt need too. Any Flyer great list starts and ends with the "King of Caroms"
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Old 11-06-2017, 10:35 PM
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You gotta have Bucky on the list - one of my favorite Flyers and Royals.
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Old 11-06-2017, 10:54 PM
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Haven't lived in Dayton for many years, so I don't have access to the tv listing. Beyond the obvious, the list could include people such as Don Donaher and Mike Kelly.

On the court, I missed Don May, but have seen all the rest since. To me, Jim Paxson was just amazing to watch. He never stopped moving on the court.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
Knight and Davis were both great guards. I would rate Davis ahead of Knight. My opinion.
Personally, I don't think it's close. Knight was a very good PG and then for about half a season during his 5th year, he broke out and played great. JD was great from day one as a freshman and improved upon that each of his next 2 seasons. As a freshman he was the missing piece of the puzzle that actually gave the Flyers a legitimate chance at a national championship. If he'd played 1 more year, he might have been considered up there with May as the greatest of all time. I realize he didn't, but I still think it puts him above Negele.
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BRob2Perryman3 View Post
I read it, but i cannot in good faith accept any Top 10 Flyer list that does not include Ryan Perryman. I know less then nothing about these guys from the 50's and 60's and i know very little about guys like Johnny Davis and Donald Smith. But i didnt need too. Any Flyer great list starts and ends with the "King of Caroms"
Im with ya. I have heard alot about these old timers. Watched a cool documentary on youtube about the history of Flyers basketball. Outside of that I know next to nothing about them.

Surprised there are no Waleskowski or Perrymans thrown out there yet. Tony Stanley, Mark Ashman, Chris Wright or dare I say Ramod Marshalls also come to mind.

Brian Roberts definitely deserves to be ranked higher than most people are ranking him IMO.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:50 PM
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Negele Knight falls into the grey area between All Time Great and Best To Ever Play.
He had a great senior year and was an NBA point guard, so he may be one of the best to ever play, but I wouldn't call him an All Time Great.
Brian Roberts can fall into the same condition. Yes, he put up great numbers, but would he have done so if he wasn't the #1, #2, and #3 offensive options for much of his career?
Chris Wright was surely one of, if not the greatest athletes to ever wear a UD uniform, but that doesn't make one All Time Great.
A guy like Kurt Huelsman could have fit in very well with some of the teams from the 50s and 60s, based on his style of play and workman-like approach, but no one is going to put him on a Best Ever list.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RamodWaleskowski View Post
Im with ya. I have heard alot about these old timers. Watched a cool documentary on youtube about the history of Flyers basketball. Outside of that I know next to nothing about them.

Surprised there are no Waleskowski or Perrymans thrown out there yet. Tony Stanley, Mark Ashman, Chris Wright or dare I say Ramod Marshalls also come to mind.

Brian Roberts definitely deserves to be ranked higher than most people are ranking him IMO.
Perryman, maybe, Waleskowsi, not a chance.

Notice that in the OP's list, all of these players were great from their first season on. They didn't start off ordinary and then enter into greatness their 3rd or 4th season, they were stars from day one. Perryman is a different animal as his rebounding is what made him great and I give an arguably top 10 because he started at 7.7 his freshman season and went up each season ending with 12.5 his senior season.

B-Rob misses the list barely based on this(only because there are at least 10 players that had a more impressive career here). The one who probably fits and would wind up 11th maybe is Mike Sylvester. He was 2nd fiddle to Donald Smith and still put up very impressive numbers from start to finish. Maybe the most underrated Flyer of all time IMO.

One glaring omission from the list is Gary Roggenburk, 16 point average all 3 years and 11.8 rebounds throughout his career. Was also an All-American. I think the fact he played MLB instead of NBA has made people omit him because we seem to take a sneak peek at their NBA careers before putting together these lists.

Last edited by Smitty10; 11-07-2017 at 01:32 PM..
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Old 11-07-2017, 04:14 PM
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My list: Gary Roggenburk, Brian Roberts, Roosevelt Chapman, Johnnie Davis, Don May, Hank Finkle, Meineke, Bill Uhl, Scoochie Smith, Jim Paxson.

Paxson probably best all around player. I pick Scoochie with my heart.
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Old 11-07-2017, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sabo2 View Post
My list: Gary Roggenburk, Brian Roberts, Roosevelt Chapman, Johnnie Davis, Don May, Hank Finkle, Meineke, Bill Uhl, Scoochie Smith, Jim Paxson.

Paxson probably best all around player. I pick Scoochie with my heart.
Smoothie over Donald Smith????? Close, but no!
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:23 PM
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We have - what - 70 years worth of Flyers and need to pick 10?

Meineke
May
Paxson
Uhl
Finkel
Chapman
Scoochie Smith
Brian Roberts
Johnny Davis
Donald Smith

Yeah, pretty much an impossible job.
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:45 PM
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I have a hard time putting anyone in the Top 10 that didn't play in an NCAA Tournament game....which is hard to type because Jim Paxson Jr is a Top 10 no-brainer.
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I have a hard time putting anyone in the Top 10 that didn't play in an NCAA Tournament game....which is hard to type because Jim Paxson Jr is a Top 10 no-brainer.
That also excludes a lot of Tom Blackburn players since he refused to play in it after having all his players foul out the only time he chose to go.
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:14 PM
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My all-time starting lineup:
Johnny Davis
Donald Smith
Roosevelt Chapman
Don May
Henry Finkel

Sixth Man:
Jim Paxson, Jr.

Rounding out the Top Ten:
Don Meineke
Bill Uhl, Sr.
Brian Roberts
John Horan
(Didn't count Roger Brown since he never played varsity.)

Tough to cut it to ten!!

Honorable Mention:
Ryan Perryman (Look up rebounder in the dictionary - there he is)
Garry Roggenburk (Smooth operator - helped win NIT Championship)
Bill Chmielewski (NIT Championship MVP but played only one season)

Special Mention:
Alphonse Schumacher - All-American in 1912 and 1913. Didn't lose a game for two seasons. Couldn't leave out an All-American. (Confession - had never heard of him until I saw his name in the Media Guide.)
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
...Special Mention:
Alphonse Schumacher - All-American in 1912 and 1913. Didn't lose a game for two seasons. Couldn't leave out an All-American. (Confession - had never heard of him until I saw his name in the Media Guide.)...
Members from those great UD teams formed the core of the Dayton Triangles a founding member of the NFL.
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Perryman, maybe, Waleskowsi, not a chance.

Notice that in the OP's list, all of these players were great from their first season on. They didn't start off ordinary and then enter into greatness their 3rd or 4th season, they were stars from day one. Perryman is a different animal as his rebounding is what made him great and I give an arguably top 10 because he started at 7.7 his freshman season and went up each season ending with 12.5 his senior season.

B-Rob misses the list barely based on this(only because there are at least 10 players that had a more impressive career here). The one who probably fits and would wind up 11th maybe is Mike Sylvester. He was 2nd fiddle to Donald Smith and still put up very impressive numbers from start to finish. Maybe the most underrated Flyer of all time IMO.

One glaring omission from the list is Gary Roggenburk, 16 point average all 3 years and 11.8 rebounds throughout his career. Was also an All-American. I think the fact he played MLB instead of NBA has made people omit him because we seem to take a sneak peek at their NBA careers before putting together these lists.

I think it depends on what you are judging them by.

I understand why a bunch of the old heads are being selected. They won national championships and helped transform UD into a legitimate basketball program bringing national attention to the University. Now we have what we have today.

I just threw out names of guys I enjoyed watching growing up.

At the same time....

B-Rob not in the top ten? Tough to omit a guy that scored nearly 2000 points. Although he played on some subpar teams. Top 15 in assists

Waleskowski? Why not? Top Ten all time in rebounding and blocks as well as top 20 in points scored. Played on a couple NCAA teams.

Chris Wright? UDs all time leading shot blocker and top ten in rebounding top 15 in points scored... Played in the NCAA tournament and had a cup of coffee in the NBA.

My main man Ramod. I had to, ha.

If I really wanted to make it interesting I could throw a family members name out there. Would of been one of the all time scoring leaders at UD had it not been for injuries slowing him down his junior and senior year.

All the same. I think this kind of list would be impossible to compile. It would have to be broken down into sub groups. One thing is for sure. UD has had alot of talent over the years.
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RamodWaleskowski View Post
I think it depends on what you are judging them by.

I understand why a bunch of the old heads are being selected. They won national championships and helped transform UD into a legitimate basketball program bringing national attention to the University. Now we have what we have today.

I just threw out names of guys I enjoyed watching growing up.

At the same time....

B-Rob not in the top ten? Tough to omit a guy that scored nearly 2000 points. Although he played on some subpar teams. Top 15 in assists

Waleskowski? Why not? Top Ten all time in rebounding and blocks as well as top 20 in points scored. Played on a couple NCAA teams.

Chris Wright? UDs all time leading shot blocker and top ten in rebounding top 15 in points scored... Played in the NCAA tournament and had a cup of coffee in the NBA.

My main man Ramod. I had to, ha.

If I really wanted to make it interesting I could throw a family members name out there. Would of been one of the all time scoring leaders at UD had it not been for injuries slowing him down his junior and senior year.

All the same. I think this kind of list would be impossible to compile. It would have to be broken down into sub groups. One thing is for sure. UD has had alot of talent over the years.
You have to remember, when looking at numbers, a lot of the "old heads" didn't get to play as freshman. Donald Smith probably would've been 1st or 2nd on the all time point list if he'd been allowed to play as a Freshman. Johnny Davis also if he'd played as a senior. Donny May would've made the scoring record untouchable if he'd played as a freshman. Hank Finkel would've been right there with him.

So when looking at numbers, you need to look at averages, for two reasons, one is that players are eligible for 4 years to accumulate those numbers and they can play almost 50 more games within those 4 years than those "old heads".
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
My all-time starting lineup:
Johnny Davis
Donald Smith
Roosevelt Chapman
Don May
Henry Finkel

Sixth Man:
Jim Paxson, Jr.
100% agree with you... how lucky am I to have been able to play with 3 of the Flyers in your all-time starting 5 (and with the younger brother of your sixth man).

I think the next to come off the bench, for me anyway, would be Brian Roberts and Chris Wright.

Great thread Don !!!
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Old 11-08-2017, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
You have to remember, when looking at numbers, a lot of the "old heads" didn't get to play as freshman. Donald Smith probably would've been 1st or 2nd on the all time point list if he'd been allowed to play as a Freshman. Johnny Davis also if he'd played as a senior. Donny May would've made the scoring record untouchable if he'd played as a freshman. Hank Finkel would've been right there with him.

So when looking at numbers, you need to look at averages, for two reasons, one is that players are eligible for 4 years to accumulate those numbers and they can play almost 50 more games within those 4 years than those "old heads".
All I heard was "Chris Wrights resume would be alot better if he was not injured for a majority of his freshman year".
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Old 11-10-2017, 11:15 AM
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I will stay out of the argument about all timers, since I did not start watching the team until the early 80s.

My favorite players during that period (not saying they were the best -- just a personal favorite list)

Brian Roberts
London Warren (loved his hustle; stopped making dumb mistakes as upperclassman).
Ryan Perryman
Chris Wright
Scoochie Smith

Honorable mention:
Alex Roberts (loved the steals)
Negele Knight
Keith W (will not try to spell that last name)
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Old 11-10-2017, 11:46 AM
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Alex Robertson

Originally Posted by FlyerShark View Post
I will stay out of the argument about all timers, since I did not start watching the team until the early 80s.

My favorite players during that period (not saying they were the best -- just a personal favorite list)

Brian Roberts
London Warren (loved his hustle; stopped making dumb mistakes as upperclassman).
Ryan Perryman
Chris Wright
Scoochie Smith

Honorable mention:
Alex Roberts (loved the steals)
Negele Knight
Keith W (will not try to spell that last name)
What a great defender he was.
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Old 11-11-2017, 12:43 AM
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Almost need to break it down into "Pre-Arena" and "Post-Arena", or something like that. My first memories begin when Donnie May was a senior, so all I really remember is the Post-Arena group.

Of those, we had a lot of great smaller players. Smitty. Johnny D. Sly. Velvet. B-Rob. Paxson Jr. All of these had great careers, start-to-finish.

Only a handful of bigger guys excelled in that time frame. P. Wally. Ash Man. Special K. But other than P (who led the world in rebounding in 1997-98), the rest pale in comparison to Finkel, Uhl, Meineke, and Horan. I never saw any of these last 4 play (and 3 of them ended their UD careers before I was even born), but when you compare their stats to those of their contemporaries, they were clearly dominant players in their eras.

A cop-out, maybe, but too hard to pick just 10.
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Old 11-11-2017, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Don View Post
I noticed that, preceding Friday's game on TV, there is a half-hour show listed as UD Top Ten all-time. I look forward to seeing who is on their list, but here is mine, not in any particular order....as I thought of them, but roughly chronological.

Monk Meineke
Bill Uhl
John Horan
Donald Smith
Johnny Davis
Henry Finkel
Don May
Jim Paxson (the younger)
Roosevelt Chapman
Roger Brown (even though he only played on the freshman team - he was a
Flyer, probably the best ever)
Did anyone see this top 10 pregame? Would be great if you can list them if you have them? Anyone?
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Old 11-11-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Did anyone see this top 10 pregame? Would be great if you can list them if you have them? Anyone?
I recorded the show. I'll check it out later.
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Old 11-11-2017, 11:30 AM
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10. Ryan Perryman
9. Bill Chmielewski
8. Brian Roberts
7. Negele Knight
6. Jim Paxson, Jr
5. Monk Meineke
4. Johnny Davis
3. Henry Finkel
2. Roosevelt Chapman
1. Don May

My main complaint would be not having Donald Smith in the Top 10. I had Negele in my Top 15, but not Top 10. Some All-Americans didn't make it like Bill Uhl, Sr and John Horan (The Vertical Hyphen). Tough to cut it to 10!
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:44 PM
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Sorry, but any top ten list that doesn't include Donald Smith loses all credibility with me....
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  #32  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
10. Ryan Perryman
9. Bill Chmielewski
8. Brian Roberts
7. Negele Knight
6. Jim Paxson, Jr
5. Monk Meineke
4. Johnny Davis
3. Henry Finkel
2. Roosevelt Chapman
1. Don May

My main complaint would be not having Donald Smith in the Top 10. I had Negele in my Top 15, but not Top 10. Some All-Americans didn't make it like Bill Uhl, Sr and John Horan (The Vertical Hyphen). Tough to cut it to 10!
Yeah, leaving out Smitty, the greatest shooter in my 50 seasons of watching Flyers basketball, in favor of Negele Knight, Bryan Roberts and Chmielewski is wrong imo. Chmielewski playing only 2 years should've disqualified him due to aforementioned that were omitted. Roggenburk and Horan deserves it over him. I also have to question putting Davis over Paxson but I can see arguments for both sides.

If we did up it to 15, I think I'd go with this list(different order obviously) and add Smitty, Horan, Roggenburk and Sylvester. My last one is a tossup between Scooch, Hooper and Sibert. I'll also admit that there are players before 1968 that I don't know about that might need to be the list of 15 that I omitted.

Last edited by Smitty10; 11-11-2017 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:23 PM
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Big Bill only played one year. It was a good one though as TB finally won rhe NIT after 5 runnerup finishes.
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Old 11-11-2017, 04:06 PM
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Bill Uhl ( 2nd Team All American)
Monk Meineke
John Horan
Henry Finkel
Don May
Donald Smith
Johnny Davis
Jim Paxson, Jr
Velvet Chapman
Negele Knight
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Old 11-12-2017, 09:56 AM
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Ryan Perryman
Brian Roberts
Chris Johnson
Kyle Davis
Devin Oliver
Jordan Sibert
Chris Daniels
Ramod Marshall
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Sean Finn
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