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View Poll Results: Should it ahve been called a foul or a clean block?
Clean block. 24 57.14%
He jumped in front of him! Foul on the body with the left arm. 1 2.38%
He hit his arm while he was shooting! Foul on the arm with the right arm. 5 11.90%
He fouled Rozier twice on the same play and got away with it. 3 7.14%
That was a clean block based on NBA rules but would have been a foul in NCAA rules. 9 21.43%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 05-28-2018, 06:20 PM
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Somebody make the call (LeBron James block)

In last night's NBA Conference Finals game, LeBron James blocked Terry Rozier in what was a highlight play of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5XgkH-7faY

As Rozier goes up, there is nothing between him and the basket. James jumps in front of him, and Rozier's momentum causes him to make contact with James' left forearm but not his body. Meanwhile, James' right arm reaches up to block the ball at the peak of Rozier's jump. The initial contact is with the ball, knocking it loose from Rozier. The momentum of Rozier's arm leads to contact between Rozier's arm and LeBron's while Rozier still has his hand on the ball.

Was it a clean block or should it have been a foul?

(EDIT: Apparently I can't fix the typo in the poll question.)

Last edited by FlyingArrow; 05-28-2018 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:13 PM
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You must be a Celtics fan.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:27 PM
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No blood no foul.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:40 PM
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I'm actually curious about the rule on arm contact if the contact is caused by the shooter, but it's part of the shooting motion, and whether it makes a difference if first contact is with the ball.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:04 PM
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Making contact with the ball first is all I need to know.

NO FOUL!
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:42 PM
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Lebron has NEVER committed a foul!
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Old 05-29-2018, 06:58 AM
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Because it was LeBron making the block, then it was a flagrant foul on Rosier. Isn't that how the NBA wants things to be?
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Old 05-29-2018, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
Because it was LeBron making the block, then it was a flagrant foul on Rosier. Isn't that how the NBA wants things to be?

The answer set is incomplete because it does not list the relative salaries of each player, and the number of years in the league. If you are a rookie making league minimum, it's a foul on you every time (even if you were spotting up in the corner). Multi-time champ with a max contract? Better be a hospital stay involved to get a whistle.
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:52 AM
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That's one that you could probably whistle either way (star player aside) but I prefer a no call on this one. For one, because when you see it in real time, it looks pretty clean. Slow it down, and you can see contact sure, but I think the nature of the shot (a dunk attempt) and the method by which it was contested (face to face challenge) make it not a foul. Here's my logic...

So the majority of the time a block like this happens from behind, on a chase down. Or as I like to call it, a Kendall Pollard special. In that case, a brush of the hand to the body (i.e. to the player's back) definitely has to be whistled, because even the slightest nudge is very dangerous, as it may knock the player completely off balance, take the player into the basket or mess of cameras under the basket, etc. Two words: Josh Cunningham.

But that is not at all what's happened on THIS PLAY. Now, admittedly I don't know the exact letter of the law but here's the way I see it when two players meet in the air on a face-to-face contest of a dunk... In this case, a brush of the hand to the chest on a contest isn't such a big deal as long as it's not pushing the player away from the basket. So I don't think you need to whistle that. You could, but it's ticky-tack, like most hand-checking calls.

So that leaves the other hand which connects with the dunking hand. Is that a foul? On a jumpshot or even a layup, I think it is. Because in those cases, there's a window of opportunity to cleanly block the shot AFTER it leaves the hand. But a dunk is different in that the ball doesn't ever leave the hand until it goes through the cylinder. So there's no window for blocking this type of shot. Therefore, the only way to contest it is to connect with the ball while it is in the dunking player's hand. So my view is that if the contesting players gets both ball and hand contesting a dunk, then this shouldn't be a foul.

So like I said, I don't know if the rules are written to interpret differently a face-to-face contest of a dunk attempt, but if I were in charge of making the basketball rules, I would differentiate them, and rule this not a foul.
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  #10  
Old 05-29-2018, 11:19 AM
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The guy with the whistle did not call a foul. So it was not a foul.
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Old 05-29-2018, 11:45 AM
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def no foul.

If rozier was smart he would have used his left hand. He had the odds stacked against him!
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:22 PM
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I can't believe how many morons think that wasn't a foul.

Oh well... The King was put in the grave later in the game by Tatum... So Karma lol
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Old 05-29-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Making contact with the ball first is all I need to know.

NO FOUL!

Is there more of a personal preference or is the rule actually written that way?
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Old 05-29-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
I can't believe how many morons think that wasn't a foul.

Oh well... The King was put in the grave later in the game by Tatum... So Karma lol
Grave?

Who is playing Thursday and who is watching?
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Old 05-29-2018, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
def no foul.

If rozier was smart he would have used his left hand. He had the odds stacked against him!
Actually if he was smart he would have dished it to a wide open teammate under the basket.
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Old 05-29-2018, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
I can't believe how many morons think that wasn't a foul.

I thought only Swampy was allowed to call people names.
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Old 05-29-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Grave?

Who is playing Thursday and who is watching?
Who cares... the GOAT is about to get swept and move to a very respectable 3-6 in the finals, oops... (Yes, Boston would probably get swept too)
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Old 05-29-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
I thought only Swampy was allowed to call people names.
Itís not good when you move into swampy territory.
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Old 05-29-2018, 04:35 PM
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What I found interesting is that Rozier made zero complaints about the play. I can tell you that if he thought he’d been fouled he would have been in the refs ear.
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Old 05-29-2018, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
Who cares... the GOAT is about to get swept and move to a very respectable 3-6 in the finals, oops... (Yes, Boston would probably get swept too)
O-H-I-O
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Old 05-29-2018, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
O-H-I-O
At least you can spell it unlike most, if not all, OSU fans lol
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Old 05-29-2018, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
Who cares... the GOAT is about to get swept and move to a very respectable 3-6 in the finals, oops... (Yes, Boston would probably get swept too)

Wow, you seem rather bitter.
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Old 05-29-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
Wow, you seem rather bitter.
Nah, never liked him and never will... just sick of him at this point lol
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Old 05-29-2018, 11:07 PM
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Thanks for the comments, guys. I was really just curious about the rule, regardless of the players involved.
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:10 AM
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Looked pretty clean to me.
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:18 AM
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*it's a shot, downward flight, above the rim...etc

Q: If blocking a shot on it's downward flight is goaltending, why isn't it goaltending to block a dunk attempt? By definition, a dunk is a shot regardless of whether or not the ball has left the shooter's hand(s). Pretty much all the criteria* are met to make the call but nobody does it.

The Royal ref wants to know!!!
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Q: If blocking a shot on it's downward flight is goaltending, why isn't it goaltending to block a dunk attempt? By definition, a dunk is a shot regardless of whether or not the ball has left the shooter's hand(s). Pretty much all the criteria* are met to make the call but nobody does it.

The Royal ref wants to know!!!
with that logic, why isn't a dunk offensive basket interference?
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Q: If blocking a shot on it's downward flight is goaltending, why isn't it goaltending to block a dunk attempt? By definition, a dunk is a shot regardless of whether or not the ball has left the shooter's hand(s). Pretty much all the criteria* are met to make the call but nobody does it.

The Royal ref wants to know!!!
My humble opinion is that that the ball is not "in flight" because someone's hand is still on it.

https://turnernbahangtime.files.word...terference.pdf
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Old 05-30-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by lhsgolf19 View Post
Nah, never liked him and never will... just sick of him at this point lol
It must suck to watch the greatest player of his generation and not be able to enjoy it at all.
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Old 05-30-2018, 01:39 PM
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That's just not a foul, sorry dude. There's contact on every play, it's almost physically impossible to block a shot without some amount of contact. But contact does not equal foul, particularly if the offense jumps into the defense. The left arm didn't interfere with the play at all. The right arm got a bit of the arm, but got the ball too and solidly so. How is a ref ever going to see the same thing in real time that you can see in super-slo-mo?



If it's not apparent that the ref saw something, my preference is to play on rather than have the ref guess. It's like our justice system, we would rather a guilty man go free than a free man be put in prison.
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Old 05-30-2018, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Making contact with the ball first is all I need to know.

NO FOUL!
Rollo, I'd love clarification on this.

I've always believed that's how calls should go, but never thought it was actually written in the rules that way.

Is that your take on a good block or is that "official"?
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
Rollo, I'd love clarification on this.

I've always believed that's how calls should go, but never thought it was actually written in the rules that way.

Is that your take on a good block or is that "official"?
I am not Rollo, but I can see his castle from here. If you get ball first, but flatten the shooter with your momentum, and he did not jump into you, it is a foul all day. Well maybe not in the NBA.
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
I am not Rollo, but I can see his castle from here. If you get ball first, but flatten the shooter with your momentum, and he did not jump into you, it is a foul all day. Well maybe not in the NBA.
I'm not taking about flattening a guy with entire body.

I'm talking about hand clearly hits ball first, then some wrist or arm on the follow-thru after contact with ball.

Always been a pet peeve when someone calls that crap during a pick-up game.

I'd love to respond back with "by rule, that's not a foul."
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:20 AM
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Dunking is exempt from the goaltending/basket interference rules, that's why it's not called. There are also 'legal' and 'illegal' contact-with-the-ball definitions that apply and support the exemption. It's complicated and too early for most of you so I'll pass on the detailed explanation(s).
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Making contact with the ball first is all I need to know.

NO FOUL!
Originally Posted by Lowd&ProUD View Post
Rollo, I'd love clarification on this.

I've always believed that's how calls should go, but never thought it was actually written in the rules that way.

Is that your take on a good block or is that "official"?
This, too, is complicated and I'm not sure where to start other than to say it all depends on the situation.

If a player is attempting a stationary jump shot and I block the shot by hitting the ball first but then run into the shooter, it's a foul because the shooter didn't initiate anything, I did...and contact in that situation must be penalized (foul). That's pretty clear...I hope.

However, if this same player is going full speed ahead for a floater or dunk, and I, as the defender, am in a legal defensive position and block the shot first and then am part of a collision/contact, as a royal ref it would be difficult to call a foul on the defender when the collision/contact was a function of the offensive player's momentum as he attacked the basket. Please note that I said 'legal defensive position'.

The LeBron dunk involved aggressive play from both the offensive and defensive players, but in a split second decision - that can only be made by a uber experienced ref who has seen this hundreds of times and anticipate what was about to happen - I would swallow the whistle and file it away as 'incidental contact' since (a) LeBron blocked the ball first, (b) both players 'initiated' contact, (c) LeBron didn't extend his opposite elbow to displace the shooter (legal defensive position) and (d) no blood, no foul.

So let it be written...so let it be done!

King Rollo the Rule Interpreter...OUT!
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:10 AM
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Talking

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
This, too, is complicated and I'm not sure where to start other than to say it all depends on the situation.

If a player is attempting a stationary jump shot and I block the shot by hitting the ball first but then run into the shooter, it's a foul because the shooter didn't initiate anything, I did...and contact in that situation must be penalized (foul). That's pretty clear...I hope.

However, if this same player is going full speed ahead for a floater or dunk, and I, as the defender, am in a legal defensive position and block the shot first and then am part of a collision/contact, as a royal ref it would be difficult to call a foul on the defender when the collision/contact was a function of the offensive player's momentum as he attacked the basket. Please note that I said 'legal defensive position'.

The LeBron dunk involved aggressive play from both the offensive and defensive players, but in a split second decision - that can only be made by a uber experienced ref who has seen this hundreds of times and anticipate what was about to happen - I would swallow the whistle and file it away as 'incidental contact' since (a) LeBron blocked the ball first, (b) both players 'initiated' contact, (c) LeBron didn't extend his opposite elbow to displace the shooter (legal defensive position) and (d) no blood, no foul.

So let it be written...so let it be done!

King Rollo the Rule Interpreter...OUT!
I think the whistle gets swallowed because, unless you have 8 eyes, no human can see a, b, c, and d above.
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:14 AM
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Ball first...defender has just as much right to the space on the court as the offensive player.

Along with Rollo on this one...if you watch it from the sideline angle, defender appears to end up straight in front of him. The body contact was insignificant as the offensive player rotated due to his momentum and getting the ball rejected...the arm contact after the fact are nil due to the clean block. Lebron in the case takes off and continues the same path as he took off to get to the ball. He has a right to that space on the floor just as the offensive player in my opinion.

Now...let't have one on LBJ's block/charge call on Thursday...
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