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  #201  
Old 11-23-2021, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Gazoo:

I fairness to Jules, he did pass Obi the ball for a corner three...which Toppin bricked.

I think he tripped, traveled, double dribbled, got fouled twice, and choked on a piece of popcorn first. THEN he decided Obi might have a better shot.
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  #202  
Old 11-23-2021, 11:01 PM
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Obi and the bench comes through again for the Knicks in a win that was much closer than it needed to be.
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  #203  
Old 11-24-2021, 09:21 AM
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The Ringer believes that the NYK bench cannot continue to outscore the starters if they are to be successful:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/1...ench-disparity
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  #204  
Old 11-24-2021, 09:53 AM
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I watched the entire game last night. Starters were on fire, then got very complacent. They actual ran some pick and rolls and were on fire from 3-point range.

Reggie Miller commented how they went into one-on-one mode on offense. That type of offense often leads to bad defense and breakouts for opponents. Their first unit has players who play hot and cold on both ends of the floor.

Randle got into foul trouble and Obi played most of the fourth quarter. Lakers forgot about him on D and he got some easy baskets. The lead extended while Obi was in, but it was more about the 2nd unit. Obi was 6-8, then missed his last 3 shots. I believe he left the game with about 2-3 minutes left in the 4th quarter.
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  #205  
Old 11-24-2021, 10:10 AM
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I watched most of the game, first one this year. Great to see Obi functioning at his old self. Wow, the NBA is terrible. You get up by 25, stop playing until the other team catches up, then you try again. Some of those foul calls were ridiculous. How many times Obi was open and the Knicks player looked him off.
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  #206  
Old 11-24-2021, 10:26 AM
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Obi will get more passes if...

Obi simply has to improve his 3 pt shooting. Borders on pitiful. Everything else in his arsenal is a go. Even his defense which ranks in the middle of the team.

Make the 3pt shots at a high 30's+ clip and they will find you. Now, Obi can beat most defenders one-on-one from the corner, so there is that. But that might not lead to an assist.

The NY players want an assist and/or a bucket if they are going to pass the ball.
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  #207  
Old 11-24-2021, 03:06 PM
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Obi needs to improve 3pt shooting, but he should not be camping out on the 3 pt line. Last night, he worked more around the foul line for a period of time and was better fluidity in the offense.
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  #208  
Old 11-24-2021, 03:31 PM
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Obi is not a great 3 point shooter. Last year, he improved as the season developed. He can be better.
A few Knicks threw up air balls last night. Not just Obi.

Obi is in the corner, because Thibs offense calls for him to be there. Does not play to his strengths.
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  #209  
Old 11-25-2021, 05:51 AM
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I’ve said it before, I think Obi is in a good place because he works so hard and is such a team player that just wants to help his team win. If that doesn’t earn him playing time, it will cause other teams to come knocking. It’s starting to surface. He’s doing everything he can in the opportunities he’s getting. He’s had one “bad” game, and it wasn’t terrible. Starting to payoff.

https://dailyknicks.com/2021/11/24/n...-knicks-depth/

https://nypost.com/2021/11/24/obi-to...-knicks-boost/

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  #210  
Old 11-25-2021, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
Iíve said it before, I think Obi is in a good place because he works so hard and is such a team player that just wants to help his team win. If that doesnít earn him playing time, it will cause other teams to come knocking. Itís starting to surface. Heís doing everything he can in the opportunities heís getting. Heís had one ďbadĒ game, and it wasnít terrible. Starting to payoff.

https://dailyknicks.com/2021/11/24/n...-knicks-depth/

https://nypost.com/2021/11/24/obi-to...-knicks-boost/
Thanks for the post and Happy Thanksgiving.

Now, seriously, were you up really really late Wednesday night, or up really really early with the bird on Thursday?
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  #211  
Old 11-25-2021, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer View Post
Thanks for the post and Happy Thanksgiving.

Now, seriously, were you up really really late Wednesday night, or up really really early with the bird on Thursday?
Where is my ďNone of the aboveĒ option?

Just up early, but no bird in my house. Over the river and through the woods is the way to go. Way less work. Happy Turkey Day to you too.
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  #212  
Old 11-26-2021, 11:43 AM
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In-depth analysis of Obiís useage this year vs. last courtesy of The Strickland:

https://www.thestrick.land/strick/hw...opping-popping
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  #213  
Old 11-27-2021, 09:42 PM
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At the half, Obi One has 11 points, 2 boards and 1 dime in only 9 minutes of action, including these two beauties:

https://twitter.com/KnicksMSGN/statu...67213089574917

https://twitter.com/KnicksMSGN/statu...68259664793606

In the second half, Obi got undercut going to the hoop on a dirty play. Appears to be okay, tho, as he made both FTs.

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  #214  
Old 11-30-2021, 09:14 PM
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Obi came in and made an immediate impact vs. the Nets. He played great D on James Harden and then leaked out for a dunk, then he got a slam on a feed from Quickley. Here are both of them in one clip:

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...50230600089601

Note: This game is on TNT

2nd half Obi hit 2 FTs and got a breakaway dunk: https://twitter.com/nyknicks/status/1465871243807232005

But then KD hit a jumper over Obi and Thibs signaled Robinson to replace #1. Obi was quite vocal with Thibs as he walked to the bench.

Last edited by Swampy Meadows; 11-30-2021 at 10:40 PM..
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  #215  
Old 11-30-2021, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Obi was quite vocal with Thibs as he walked to the bench.
I thought that was interesting. I wonder what was said.
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  #216  
Old 12-01-2021, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
I thought that was interesting. I wonder what was said.
Probably something like - "Hey Thibs - I am sorry I drowned your puppy - how many times do I need to apologize?"

Because outside of Obi drowning Thibs puppy I don't get the lack of playing time Obi is getting. And the twitter-verse is getting really vocal about this too. The Knicks are a better team when Obi is on the floor.

How long is Obi supposed to take this BS of just 10 to 13 minutes a game.
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  #217  
Old 12-01-2021, 02:21 AM
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Once again the bench +/- lapped the starters tonight. I think Thibs needs a Moneyball moment from a Knicks back office intern.
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  #218  
Old 12-01-2021, 08:44 AM
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Thibs did play Obi and Randall together for several minutes but bailing on Obi because canít stop Kevin Durant is weakówho the heck can?
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  #219  
Old 12-01-2021, 06:31 PM
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I'm not sure we can say a specific play causes Thibs to pull Obi. Thibs never lets Obi play in the final minutes of a game, and he only gets like 10-15 minutes per game total.

It's a pattern. Obi just gets very limited minutes in Thibs system right now.
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  #220  
Old 12-01-2021, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Thibs did play Obi and Randall together for several minutes but bailing on Obi because canít stop Kevin Durant is weakówho the heck can?
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Especially on one single possession. He proceeded to make a clown out of Randle guarding him afterwards who also picked up a T. But he doesnít get pulled
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  #221  
Old 12-01-2021, 10:23 PM
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My personal opinion is that Thibs did not want Obi to be the draft choice and he is letting management know it.

Obi's hope beyond being traded is to do exactly what he is doing . . being exciting and explosive when he has the chance, build his personal chemistry with his teammates and get the crowd and the twitter feeds on Thibs.
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  #222  
Old 12-01-2021, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Thibs did play Obi and Randall together for several minutes but bailing on Obi because canít stop Kevin Durant is weakówho the heck can?
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Nobody. The only guy past or present Ive ever seen that could do what a man his size can do is Dirk. He is a human anomaly. Obi is in good company on KD's fridge.
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  #223  
Old 12-02-2021, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
My personal opinion is that Thibs did not want Obi to be the draft choice and he is letting management know it.

Obi's hope beyond being traded is to do exactly what he is doing . . being exciting and explosive when he has the chance, build his personal chemistry with his teammates and get the crowd and the twitter feeds on Thibs.
I’ve been suspecting this since last season. It’s becoming more obvious now because Obi’s offensive efficiency is off the charts when not shooting the 3 ball (which was a Thibs idea to have Obi camp in the corner wings and hoist all day)- what better way to drag down your stats if that’s not your game.

I’ve been saying since last season Obi deserves at least 20-30 minutes per game but instead you see Mitch Robinson-who’s so slow I swear Obi could run the floor up and back to Mitch’s half distance in the same time.

The fans know; listen to or watch Knicksfantv on YouTube during and after each Knicks game and you see thread comments and calls after each game expressing extreme frustration with Thibideau. I hope it works out in NY for Obi but my guess is he gets traded where he’ll flourish.
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Fudd View Post
I thought that was interesting. I wonder what was said.
Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
Iíve been suspecting this since last season. Itís becoming more obvious now because Obiís offensive efficiency is off the charts when not shooting the 3 ball (which was a Thibs idea to have Obi camp in the corner wings and hoist all day)- what better way to drag down your stats if thatís not your game.

Iíve been saying since last season Obi deserves at least 20-30 minutes per game but instead you see Mitch Robinson-whoís so slow I swear Obi could run the floor up and back to Mitchís half distance in the same time.

The fans know; listen to or watch Knicksfantv on YouTube during and after each Knicks game and you see thread comments and calls after each game expressing extreme frustration with Thibideau. I hope it works out in NY for Obi but my guess is he gets traded where heíll flourish.
I hope Thibs can get over whatever it is causing him to hold back Obi. Obi does not want to be traded - he is a Knicks fan and the Knicks fans have embraced him as one of their own. As a Knicks fan - it would be a shame to lose the most exciting player we have had in a long long time.

That said - you could finally see Obi's frustration come through that last game when he was pulled in the 4th.
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  #225  
Old 12-02-2021, 11:35 AM
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At this point I wish for the Knicks to lose every game. Maybe a nice 10 game losing streak to welcome in 2022 would lead to an immediate coaching change mid season, since yes that does happen in pro sports.

Of course we want Obi to continue to be well above average on the +/- and continue to lead the team PER rating, while Randle sinks deeper.
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:59 AM
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Two frustrating things about the Knicks: 1. When they have Obi camp out on the three line, which is not his strength and 2: Getting pulled for a mistake, while other players make similar or worse and don't get pulled. We all agree that Obi still has work to do on his game, but the Knicks are simply better when he's in. Gibson, Noel, and Robinson offer essentially zero offense night in night out. Obi doesn't have to take Randle's minutes, he should take some of the other guys. Randle is big and beefy enough to take on many opposing centers for a period of time to give Obi some more minutes on the floor with him.
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  #227  
Old 12-02-2021, 09:18 PM
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New Knicks drinking game.

Every time Obi has to point to a location on the floor telling a team mate where to go, take a drink. I assume Obi is right, are his team mates just that lazy to not rotate to where they should be?

Cheers!
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Old 12-02-2021, 09:27 PM
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Obi came in with 3+ minutes to go in the 1Q after there was some heated disputes and a Taj Gibson ejection. He has 6 points so far in 11 minutes:

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...75296828624897

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...77645940977670

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...78182434340865

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Old 12-02-2021, 09:48 PM
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And heís -7 on the +/- scale. What does that mean?

Should he play more? Or less?

Hmmmm
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  #230  
Old 12-02-2021, 10:46 PM
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In 19 minutes Obi One finishes with 8 points on 4-6 shooting, 4 boards, 2 steals and an assist
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  #231  
Old 12-03-2021, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
And heís -7 on the +/- scale. What does that mean?

Should he play more? Or less?

Hmmmm
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Julius Randle scored 30 points but was -2 for the +/- , what does that say? 3/5 starters were on the negative side for the night despite scoring 61 points; what does that say? Derick Rose scored 16 points as a sub but was -14 on the +/-. The point? When the team loses, MOST will have a negative for the night. The +/- is just one stat of many.

Hereís the the stat that I followed from a defensive perspective (and itís not really charted on ESPN but its self explanatory):

How many times did I see Mitch Robinson dragging up the rear when getting back on offense? EVER SINGLE TIME and itís laughable to say heís playing more effective defense when the Knicks are consistently having to play 4 on 5 until ďgassedĒ Mitch arrives down the court for defensive action. Itís even funnier when the announcers are saying it. Should Obi be getting more than the average 12 minutes per game? All i can say is you canít blame the Knicksí losses on Obi when he hardly sees any action, but if they continue to lose, at least based on UDPride mentality- itís the coaches fault!
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:26 AM
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Looks Like Obi is not the only player Thibs doesn't know how to use.

Kenny Smith on Thibs benching Kemba "It's the coach and the organization just not understanding what value of a guy like this, what they paid for."..."You can have a Ferrari, but you drive it 30 miles an hour...what's the use?!" Same can be said regarding Obi.

https://www.tmz.com/2021/12/03/kenny...w-york-knicks/
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
And heís -7 on the +/- scale. What does that mean?

Should he play more? Or less?

Hmmmm
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What is your point? I don't think anyone is saying +/- in any single game is a big deal. Particularly with limited minutes. But over the course of a season, I think it has value.

Do you watch the Knicks games? Obi definitely makes them better and plays full effort every play (which goes a long way in my book). He is a human highlight reel, even in limited minutes. Most importantly, he is a Dayton Flyer and has represented us with nothing but class. I can't understand why anyone on UDPride wouldn't be "all in" rooting for Obi to do well and get more playing time.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:55 AM
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I always thought that Obi was at his best when sharing the court with a teammate who is a big physical presence like Randle. I've always thought it draws defensive physicality away from Obi, and frees him up for cuts to the basket, where he is exceptional.

The NBA has way too much "1 on 1" mentality. The more the ball and the players move on offense, the better Obi looks. The NBA is offensively lethargic, and the Knicks especially. The NBA mentality is to spread the floor and let the stars go 1 on 1. Star players jog up and down the court because they play a ton of games, the games are long and they make a gazillion dollars in guaranteed contract money.

I only can say this because I have been watching the Knicks play the last two years. Otherwise, I have no interest in the NBA. It is not entertaining. It's not good basketball. I would much rather watch an Iowa State play team basketball or the 2019-20 Flyers turn the college basketball world upside down by having a balanced, unselfish offense.

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  #235  
Old 12-03-2021, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
What is your point? I don't think anyone is saying +/- in any single game is a big deal. Particularly with limited minutes. But over the course of a season, I think it has value.

Do you watch the Knicks games? Obi definitely makes them better and plays full effort every play (which goes a long way in my book). He is a human highlight reel, even in limited minutes. Most importantly, he is a Dayton Flyer and has represented us with nothing but class. I can't understand why anyone on UDPride wouldn't be "all in" rooting for Obi to do well and get more playing time.
Plenty of UDPriders use the +/- on a game-by-game basis to justify saying he should play more. I wholeheartedly disagree with the use of +/- for anything but toilet paper, and wanted to point out that the stat, if used that way, should be used both ways.

I think Obi should play 30+ mpg. Why Thibs doesn't is beyond me, because like many here, I watch every game and think the starting 5 doesn't gel well and - quite honestly - is boring. Rose and Obi should play more, with Robinson on the bench.
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  #236  
Old 12-03-2021, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Obi came in with 3+ minutes to go in the 1Q after there was some heated disputes and a Taj Gibson ejection. He has 6 points so far in 11 minutes:

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...75296828624897

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...77645940977670

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...78182434340865
Thank God that I don't EVER watch the NBA because if I had to watch effort like the guy on the Bulls gave going to double the post in this third clip it would drive me crazy.
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  #237  
Old 12-03-2021, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Plenty of UDPriders use the +/- on a game-by-game basis to justify saying he should play more. I wholeheartedly disagree with the use of +/- for anything but toilet paper, and wanted to point out that the stat, if used that way, should be used both ways.

.
Come on man, your smarter than that! You know the +/- over multiple games is a good indicator of a guys value on the court. Last night was like only the 2nd game in at least the last 15 where Obi was minus and Randle was not.
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  #238  
Old 12-03-2021, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
You know the +/- over multiple games is a good indicator of a guys value on the court.
Wins and Losses are the best indicator....that's what the King uses.

Randall puts up 30 pts, 12 rbs and 6 assists...yet has a -2...Rose puts up 16 pts and 6 assists and has a -14...Robinson can't play defense and puts up a +7. Caruso for the Bulls put up a +21 on 2/7 shooing, 0/3 on 3s and 4 TOs...DeRozen put up 34 pts on 12/19 shooitng and 10/11 FTs...and got a -3...further supporting the royal stance.

It's possible that the +/- is a strong indicator of who you're on the court with and lesser related to how an individual is performing? Yup.

So is the +/- good?? Or good for nothing!? I think you know how I feel.

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Old 12-03-2021, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Wins and Losses are the best indicator....that's what the King uses.

Randall puts up 30 pts, 12 rbs and 6 assists...yet has a -2...Rose puts up 16 pts and 6 assists and has a -14...Robinson can't play defense and puts up a +7. Caruso for the Bulls put up a +21 on 2/7 shooing, 0/3 on 3s and 4 TOs...DeRozen put up 34 pts on 12/19 shooitng and 10/11 FTs...and got a -3...further supporting the royal stance.

It's possible that the +/- is a strong indicator of who you're on the court with and lesser related to how an individual is performing? Yup.

So is the +/- good?? Or good for nothing!? I think you know how I feel.

King Rollo the Correct...OUT!
KR- as I mentioned above, just watch a Knicks game when Mitch is in and pay close attention to the right side of your TV screen as the Knicks are getting back on defense; 99% of the time youíll see a Ďlaboringí Mitch trailing all the other players. THATíS how effective Mitch is on defense; itís laughable to suggest heís playing better defense or is more valuable on offense than Obi. LaughableÖ
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Old 12-03-2021, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Wins and Losses are the best indicator....that's what the King uses.

Randall puts up 30 pts, 12 rbs and 6 assists...yet has a -2...Rose puts up 16 pts and 6 assists and has a -14...Robinson can't play defense and puts up a +7. Caruso for the Bulls put up a +21 on 2/7 shooing, 0/3 on 3s and 4 TOs...DeRozen put up 34 pts on 12/19 shooitng and 10/11 FTs...and got a -3...further supporting the royal stance.

It's possible that the +/- is a strong indicator of who you're on the court with and lesser related to how an individual is performing? Yup.

So is the +/- good?? Or good for nothing!? I think you know how I feel.

King Rollo the Correct...OUT!
Even if it was a solid metric, which it isn't, it's still apples and oranges. Player B +/- against 2nd stringers has very little to no correlation to what it would be if he played vs. the first stringers.
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Old 12-03-2021, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Plenty of UDPriders use the +/- on a game-by-game basis to justify saying he should play more. I wholeheartedly disagree with the use of +/- for anything but toilet paper, and wanted to point out that the stat, if used that way, should be used both ways.

I think Obi should play 30+ mpg. Why Thibs doesn't is beyond me, because like many here, I watch every game and think the starting 5 doesn't gel well and - quite honestly - is boring. Rose and Obi should play more, with Robinson on the bench.
Thanks for the clarification. I took your original message as a shot at Obi, when you were actually just taking a shot at +/- stats. I love Obi and think he is getting hosed with regard to playing time, don't care about +/- stats. Carry on.
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Old 12-03-2021, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
And he’s -7 on the +/- scale. What does that mean?

Should he play more? Or less?

Hmmmm
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Plenty of UDPriders use the +/- on a game-by-game basis to justify saying he should play more. I wholeheartedly disagree with the use of +/- for anything but toilet paper, and wanted to point out that the stat, if used that way, should be used both ways.
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Wins and Losses are the best indicator....that's what the King uses.

Cool, cool. And since the Nets are 15-6, leading the east, with Kyrie Irving on the bench, that means they're a better team without him. As you said, wins and losses the best indicator. Nothing else needed to compliment that.

Obi has been less effective at improving the team's situation over the last couple of games and his +/-, as one indicator of this effectiveness, has shown it. Hopefully it's not a troubling sign that more minutes = less effective.

When you play almost the entire game like Randall, your +/- is likely going to reflect the entire game. The Knicks lost by 4, and his +/- was -2. But when you only play 18 minutes, the statistic is more likely to reflect what happened during your shifts. At -6 (per Yahoo sports this morning), honestly, not good.

Who cares if you go 4-6 while the guy you're guarding goes 5-5, all from 3 point range?? Is Obi entirely responsible for that--no. And as I've said previously, maybe Thibs is actually only playing him when he's likely to be successful.
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Old 12-03-2021, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Cool, cool. And since the Nets are 15-6, leading the east, with Kyrie Irving on the bench, that means they're a better team without him.
We don't know if the Nets would be better or worse. For all we know, they'd be 6-15 with him playing.

What we do know is that Obi is the most energetic and exciting player the Knicks have had in a long time and that the fans want to see more of him. What we also know is that the coach is in charge and likes Obi playing 14-18 mpg. Finally, we also know that nothing is going to change unless Obi or Thibs leave.

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  #244  
Old 12-03-2021, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
We don't know if the Nets would be better or worse. For all we know, they'd be 6-15 with him playing.

What we do know is that Obi is the most energetic and exciting player the Knicks have had in a long time and that the fans want to see more of him. What we also know is that the coach is in charge and likes Obi playing 14-18 mpg. Finally, we also know that nothing is going to change unless Obi or Thibs leave.

King Rollo the Know-It-All...OUT!
But, wins and losses are the best indicator. You're saying we don't know what the Nets record would be if Kyrie played. So we also don't know what the Knicks record would be if Obi played 30 minutes per game with me at point guard. I mean, we don't know. Right?

Or maybe we don't know for sure, but, we have some stats that indicate a pretty good idea.
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Old 12-04-2021, 10:46 AM
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What we also know is that Thibs has been NBA Coach of the Year twice, which means he can squeeze more out of a team than others expect. So maybe he knows what heís doing.

In the meantime, Iíd like to see Obi playing 30 mpg. What does he need to do to earn those minutes is the question.
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Old 12-04-2021, 11:00 AM
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I'm sorry, Rollo, but just because Thibs has been NBA Coach of the Year twice does not justify his current coaching record. I am not taking issue with Obi's playing time. I am taking issue with the team and the lack of offensive strategy other than run and shoot, no pass, no screens, no pick and rolls . . . just run and shoot. That is good coaching?

Thibs has reached his level of incompetence. The game has moved on beyond him.
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  #247  
Old 12-04-2021, 10:25 PM
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Obi shot poorly but got 20 minutes and was one of only 2 players who had a positive +/-. Nerlans Noel -24. That will hurt your psyche.
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Old 12-04-2021, 10:57 PM
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Knicks second last in assists last season. This season big improvement. 4th from last ahead of OKC, Toronto and Detroit.
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Old 12-07-2021, 10:28 PM
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Obi came in and made an immediate hustle play:

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...01787141074945

Later he did this:

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...05373308751874
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  #250  
Old 12-07-2021, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Obi came in and made an immediate hustle play:

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...01787141074945

Later he did this:

https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...05373308751874
And then he was yanked shortly after and played a few more minutes in the 2nd half. Thibs really has a hang up on Obi and is not giving him the playing time his stats indicate he should be getting. Recently Obi even barked back at Thibs when he was pulled. Feeling bad for Obi - it is clear it is a very frustrating situation per lack of playing time.
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Old 12-07-2021, 11:53 PM
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Obi got a total of 13 minutes tonight. 7 minutes in the first half and 6 in the second half. No matter how good he plays or how significant his impact on the game is he will never get 20 to 30 minutes as long as Thibs is the coach! Knicks have led the Spurs practically the whole game and should even their record at 12 wins and 12 losses tonight as there was only a few minutes remaining.

Last edited by CvilleFlyer; 12-07-2021 at 11:55 PM..
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  #252  
Old 12-08-2021, 12:50 AM
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Obi isnít helping the cause for more minutes by going a sad 7-37 from 3.
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Old 12-08-2021, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
Obi isnít helping the cause for more minutes by going a sad 7-37 from 3.
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So you donít even like/see the positives in Obi Toppin. No wonders you hated Dwayne Cohill.

Some people are glass half full, some are glass half empty, I imagine you complain that the glass sucks and isnít even good enough to use in the first place.
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  #254  
Old 12-08-2021, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
So you donít even like/see the positives in Obi Toppin. No wonders you hated Dwayne Cohill.

Some people are glass half full, some are glass half empty, I imagine you complain that the glass sucks and isnít even good enough to use in the first place.
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Iím not his publicist or apologist but since the thread is titled ĎSeason Game Threadí and people are discussing why Obi should be playing a lot more, why Thibs is a bad coach and/or should be fired, 7/37 is a very important factor in those discussions very few consider or discuss. It definitely hurts his opportunities for more minutes with Thibs.
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Old 12-08-2021, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
Iím not his publicist or apologist but since the thread is titled ĎSeason Game Threadí and people are discussing why Obi should be playing a lot more, why Thibs is a bad coach and/or should be fired, 7/37 is a very important factor in those discussions very few consider or discuss. It definitely hurts his opportunities for more minutes with Thibs.
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I would rather see Mad Dog turn his powers towards all the people that play more minutes then Toppin and explain what they do bad, instead of the one guy we all like and root for.

Toppin does a lot of things better than everyone else, despite his one wart (3 point shooting). I only see a pointing out of the wart, no acknowledgement of any of the positives. I didn't realize all of the other Knicks players were perfect and have no flaws.
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  #256  
Old 12-08-2021, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
Obi isnít helping the cause for more minutes by going a sad 7-37 from 3.
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This is a fair pint and I recently read an article that talked about this being his only bad stat. Nobody is even saying his defense is bad this year because he has improved It so much. The article was saying he should be getting more minutes. Iíve even seen another article saying he should be starting.

7 for 37. You hit 35% of your 3s you would have made 13 of those. So we are talking 6 attempts worth 3 points each (18 points) over 24 games - less than a point a game.

When Obi is on the floor, he is giving the Knicks a heck of a lot more value than the 1 point a game his poor 3 point shooting is costing them. I donít even think Thibs would deny that.

I also saw an article this week that said Thibs was mulling over making some additional changes to his lineup. Iíll believe it when I see it.
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  #257  
Old 12-08-2021, 10:08 AM
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Obi has nearly doubled his scoring from last season (4.1 ppg to 8.1 ppg) and only playing 4 additional mpg. He's already shot more FTs than all of last season...and his 2-pt FG% has slightly improved (63% to 66%).

Every measurable stat, when compared to last season, has improved except 3-pt shooting. I'll take that.
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Old 12-08-2021, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by maddog07 View Post
Obi isnít helping the cause for more minutes by going a sad 7-37 from 3.
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And if they start Obi at the 5 in a small ball lineup - then he would not need to be out there shooting 3's. That is part of the argument about Thibs - why is he wasting the Kicks best finisher in the paint by camping him out at the 3 line?

Lots of frustrated Knicks fans right now.
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  #259  
Old 12-08-2021, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by podcast411 View Post
And if they start Obi at the 5 in a small ball lineup - then he would not need to be out there shooting 3's. That is part of the argument about Thibs - why is he wasting the Kicks best finisher in the paint by camping him out at the 3 line?

Lots of frustrated Knicks fans right now.
He's parked at the corner 3-pt line because his job is to run/drive the baseline, which starts at the corner. And it's working...see his increase in FTs and FG%.
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Old 12-08-2021, 10:31 AM
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The Knicks are eleventh in their division, and even below the lowly Cavs, so that coach better change something.
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  #261  
Old 12-08-2021, 10:39 AM
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I haven't watched the NBA in about 25 years so I'm wondering does every player in the NBA need to be a good 3 point shooter in order to gain playing time? Are there any players that don't shoot many three's but still play more minutes? Can Obi be one of those guys?
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  #262  
Old 12-08-2021, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
The Knicks are eleventh in their division, and even below the lowly Cavs, so that coach better change something.
The Cavs aren't so lowly this season. They're in fact pretty good.
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  #263  
Old 12-08-2021, 11:46 AM
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Obi is really good slashing around the basket. You can can see his confidence there now in the NBA. We know he is not going to be a 18% 3pt shooter, but he is not somebody you park in the corner and have him hold up his hands when he is open for the 3 pointer, IMO. I think he belongs in an offensive system where there is more motion and passing. He can be an opportunistic 3pth shooter when the motion leaves him wide open, like he was in college. But that is a tall order for the 1-on-1 NBA.
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  #264  
Old 12-08-2021, 11:51 AM
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Watched the game last night. I have to admit I don't really understand the Knicks offense, but I don't watch enough NBA to know if it's significantly different from any other team. On most possessions, Obi is camped out in the corner behind the 3 point line and not really involved in the play. They rarely pass it to him there and it's also his worst spot on the court for shooting 3s. More of his air balls come from the corner 3 than anywhere else. But most of the "offense" in those possessions is either Rose, Quickly, Burks, Barrett, or Randle doing some kind of 1 on 1 on the other side of the court. When shots are going up, sometimes Obi runs to the basket for a rebound attempt, other times he just runs back to the other end.

On about 30% or so of possessions, instead of camping in the corner, he is out setting screens for guards on more of a pick and roll type play. IMO, the Kicks offense runs better when he's doing that than when he's camped in the corner.

As Rollo stated above, everything about Obi's game has improved this year except his 3pt shooting. I think his 3 pt shooting woes are directly caused by taking too many corner 3s.

For his size, I'm not sure there's another player who moves up and down the court as fast/well as he does. I think the Knicks would be better served with Obi playing more time and more up tempo, and less Obi standing in the corner. But I'm not a NBA coach, just an Obi fan. Frankly, I could care less whether the Knicks win or not. I only root for them when Obi's in the game. If he went to another team, I would re-assess if I rooted for the team or not based on how they utilized him. The way the Knicks do, I have no interest in rooting for them as a team.
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Old 12-08-2021, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
I haven't watched the NBA in about 25 years so I'm wondering does every player in the NBA need to be a good 3 point shooter in order to gain playing time? Are there any players that don't shoot many three's but still play more minutes? Can Obi be one of those guys?
Obi ranks 249th in 3pt made per game, 246th in 3pt %.

The people surrounding him on the chart based on makes per game include:

Jimmy Butler
Paul Millsap
Draymond Green
Anthony Davis
Blake Griffin

If you take the bottom 50 and rank them by minutes per game, Obi is at #32, meaning he's pretty near the bottom in terms of minutes played per game and you might assume that with more minutes he would have more makes per game.

But still, #246 out of 249 in %.
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  #266  
Old 12-08-2021, 02:16 PM
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I’ve only seen 2-3 of his games this year...so those who have seen more...please comment. I have seen social media comments that note Thibs pulls him after he’s done something good. Does anyone know if he gets pulled after missing a 3? I was not on the Thibs doesn’t like Obi or want to play him bandwagon. I’m probably still not, but I’m leaning towards there is maybe something here. Most of the starters are 26-29 years old. Obi is 22. Maybe it’s just Thibs thinks he needs more seasoning? But when you are sitting out of a playoff spot and your bench keeps out-performing your starters....time is of the essence to fix what ails your team. What you’ve been doing is not working. It might be time to serve up some youth.
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Old 12-08-2021, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I’ve only seen 2-3 of his games this year...so those who have seen more...please comment. I have seen social media comments that note Thibs pulls him after he’s done something good. Does anyone know if he gets pulled after missing a 3? I was not on the Thibs doesn’t like Obi or want to play him bandwagon. I’m probably still not, but I’m leaning towards there is maybe something here. Most of the starters are 26-29 years old. Obi is 22. Maybe it’s just Thibs thinks he needs more seasoning? But when you are sitting out of a playoff spot and your bench keeps out-performing your starters....time is of the essence to fix what ails your team. What you’ve been doing is not working. It might be time to serve up some youth.
I have watched every Knicks game that was not on at the same time as a flyer game. And what I saw was Thibs pulling Obi for pretty much any reason or no reason at all. I have seen Obi come off his man to cover someone else's man - and Obi gets there late and is pulled. I have seen him block a shot, hustle down the court out in front of all - and not get the ball (common theme) and then get pulled.

One thing that has been very consistent - When Obi goes into the game the Knicks if they are down come back. Or if they were up - extend that lead. And then once he is pulled it is almost instant - the Knicks lead drops or if they pulled even - the other team pulls away.

I have seen Obi have a strong showing in the 2nd quarter just to get pulled while hot. And then not come back until the 4th quarter. It is really hard to stay hot when you are pulled with 7 minutes left in the 2nd period - you have half time and then miss all of the 3rd quarter. That real world time is typically over an hour on the bench or more. Thibs really ice's Obi well.

The mainstream press in NY is also starting to bang the "Give Obi more minutes' drum. Still watching last night after Thibs said changes were coming - well from Obi's perspective sadly Nothing changed. It makes no sense.

Last edited by podcast411; 12-08-2021 at 03:10 PM..
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  #268  
Old 12-08-2021, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by podcast411 View Post
I have watched every Knicks game that was not on at the same time as a flyer game. And what I saw was Thibs pulling Obi for pretty much any reason or no reason at all. I have seen Obi come off his man to cover someone else's man - and Obi gets there late and is pulled. I have seen him block a shot, hustle down the court out in front of all - and not get the ball (common theme) and then get pulled.

One thing that has been very consistent - When Obi goes into the game the Knicks if they are down come back. Or if they were up - extend that lead. And then once he is pulled it is almost instant - the Knicks lead drops or if they pulled even - the other team pulls away.

I have seen Obi have a strong showing in the 2nd quarter just to get pulled while hot. And then not come back until the 4th quarter. It is really hard to stay hot when you are pulled with 7 minutes left in the 2nd period - you have half time and then miss all of the 3rd quarter. That real world time is typically over an hour on the bench or more. Thibs really ice's Obi well.

The mainstream press in NY is also starting to bang the "Give Obi more minutes' drum. Still watching last night after Thibs said changes were coming - well from Obi's perspective sadly Nothing changed. It makes no sense.
Thank you for use that havenít seen many games. I read that Thibs is mulling over changes comments. You would think if he is unsure that he would at least try making some gradual changes to test out a full roster line up change. It doesnít make sense. His team is going to miss the playoffs and the press and fans will be out for blood because they see players who can help on the bench.
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Old 12-08-2021, 03:37 PM
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But Thibs was "COY" last year. Has he forgotten how to coach?
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Old 12-08-2021, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BeckysTXA View Post
I’ve only seen 2-3 of his games this year...so those who have seen more...please comment. I have seen social media comments that note Thibs pulls him after he’s done something good. Does anyone know if he gets pulled after missing a 3? I was not on the Thibs doesn’t like Obi or want to play him bandwagon. I’m probably still not, but I’m leaning towards there is maybe something here. Most of the starters are 26-29 years old. Obi is 22. Maybe it’s just Thibs thinks he needs more seasoning? But when you are sitting out of a playoff spot and your bench keeps out-performing your starters....time is of the essence to fix what ails your team. What you’ve been doing is not working. It might be time to serve up some youth.
I've seen about 6-8 games. I think that Thibs just has a set max amount of minutes that he is going to play Obi. I don't think he gets pulled for a specific action. That is just my impression from watching and the general consistency of the pattern.

Obi has not been a world beater in the NBA, especially because he is struggling from the 3pt line, but he does get so many easy buckets in the paint, it's a little bit maddening to see him get pulled when he is scoring so efficiently. Don't discount the fast break dunks. Those don't happen without Obi creating the opportunities.

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Old 12-08-2021, 04:01 PM
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https://www.basketball-reference.com...randlju01.html


I'm not the most well versed in basketball analytics, but looking at his BB reference page, Randle was mostly a slightly above average NBA player. A solid starter, but not a guy you build around until last season, when he played like peak Blake Griffin, a really good NBA all star, but not the center of a championship franchise. The Knicks banked on Randel continuing that trend at a minimum and hope they could build a championship around him, something the Clippers failed to do with Blake.


This season, Randle is back to being just a slightly above average NBA player. Meanwhile Obi is giving the Knicks a similar PER, but in far less minutes.
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Old 12-08-2021, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
But Thibs was "COY" last year. Has he forgotten how to coach?
I wish people would quit looking at COY as something objective and realize it's just an award based on whether their team exceeded early expectations usually. We rarely know what coaches do that makes their team perform above expectations. And sometimes/most times it has more to do with a couple players having career years that might or might not have anything to do with the coach. Or, a coaches managing of personalities don't change but works better on one group of guys and fails with others. When everything lines up, his team preforms like they never have before and he gets COY.

Take the NFL. Bill Belichick who is probably known as the best coach in the NFL year in and year out only won the COY 3 times. If it was based on truly the best coach that year, shouldn't he win it just about every year? And how many COY's one season get fired within the next 3? It's all based on team performance and that's not always about the coach.

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Old 12-08-2021, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I wish people would quit looking at COY as something objective and realize it's just an award based on whether their team exceeded early expectations usually. We rarely know what coaches do that makes their team perform above expectations. And sometimes/most times it has more to do with a couple players having career years that might or might not have anything to do with the coach. Or, a coaches managing of personalities don't change but works better on one group of guys and fails with others. When everything lines up, his team preforms like they never have before and he gets COY.
You are correct in Pro ball, but when it comes to college, specifically the 2019-2020 season, you are 100% wrong
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Old 12-08-2021, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
You are correct in Pro ball, but when it comes to college, specifically the 2019-2020 season, you are 100% wrong
Hey, agree with you. But we need to figure out what he knew that season but forgot the next? And really, the most baffling thing ever was how bad our timing was with JOB. We get him the year before he forgot how to coach. Such bad luck.
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Old 12-08-2021, 08:56 PM
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Haven't seen this one since March 7, 2019 in the Arena:

https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/sta...43735856951296
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Old 12-08-2021, 10:58 PM
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Stud!

Prediction that obi becomes a Starter in next 4 months
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Old 12-08-2021, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
Stud!

Prediction that obi becomes a Starter in next 4 months
Not going to happen as long as Thibs is the coach
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  #278  
Old 12-08-2021, 11:30 PM
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Not

As much as I love Obi and loved seeing that TWICE at the Arena, Iím not sure that was smart in a game when the Knicks were trailing. If youíre a Pacers fan, thatís a bit of a slap in the face and invites a run. Which is exactly what happened.
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Old 12-09-2021, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I wish people would quit looking at COY as something objective and realize it's just an award based on whether their team exceeded early expectations usually. We rarely know what coaches do that makes their team perform above expectations. And sometimes/most times it has more to do with a couple players having career years that might or might not have anything to do with the coach. Or, a coaches managing of personalities don't change but works better on one group of guys and fails with others. When everything lines up, his team preforms like they never have before and he gets COY.

Take the NFL. Bill Belichick who is probably known as the best coach in the NFL year in and year out only won the COY 3 times. If it was based on truly the best coach that year, shouldn't he win it just about every year? And how many COY's one season get fired within the next 3? It's all based on team performance and that's not always about the coach.
I don't know why some people (not you smitty) have such difficulty holding 2 different, non-absolute thoughts in their mind at the same time.

It is possible that Thibs is a good coach. It is possible that Thibs had a GREAT year coaching a certain set of players. It is possible that group had good chemistry with what Thibs was attempting to do. It is possible that the media was pleasantly surprised and multiplied the results.

It is possible that this year Thibs has different players. It is possible that this year's new players are NOT jiving with his system. It is possible that younger players are now less willing to sit the bench and are pushing for more playing time. It is possible that veteran players who were added to the roster see a sinking ship and are playing for contracts, or trade value. It is possible that the media too high of expectations and is fomenting resentment.

It is possible to have a good year with 1 set of players and 1 set of circumstances, and a bad year later.

Patton would probably not be the best military leader in Afghanistan. Does that mean Patton "forgot how to general"?
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Old 12-09-2021, 10:18 AM
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Add two more thoughts. The Knicks improved last year when they added Rose. They were floundering before that.

Given enough time, other coaches may had time to figure out the formula and weaknesses of the Knicks. It started last year in the playoffs and continues this year. Ribs got them there, but his coaching style and player personnel might have peaked. Other coaches are smart too and they are capable of developing counter strategies.

The starters have played exceptionally poorly this year.



Second thought. Playing Randle all those minutes is catching up with Randle and the team. It seems when Randle plays poorly, the Knicks go down.
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Old 12-09-2021, 11:52 AM
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Back to Obi, i will (hopefully) post more of that dunk on YouTube later and will provide the link here when I do.
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Old 12-09-2021, 01:18 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twCgd7aXZMM

2 minutes 30 seconds in - for the Top play of the day.
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Old 12-09-2021, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
But Thibs was "COY" last year. Has he forgotten how to coach?
Yes he has. Either that or Randle has photos...
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Old 12-09-2021, 06:45 PM
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Media getting restlessÖnatives wonít be far behind.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/06/starti...rLlm_in987fXq4
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Old 12-10-2021, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Buster View Post
Media getting restlessÖnatives wonít be far behind.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/06/starti...rLlm_in987fXq4
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Thibs and the Knicks season is rapidly approaching the "We have nothing to lose" by experimenting with the line-up phase of their season.
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Old 12-10-2021, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
Haven't seen this one since March 7, 2019 in the Arena:

https://twitter.com/WorldWideWob/sta...43735856951296
March 7, 2020, but whoís counting?
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Old 12-10-2021, 09:13 PM
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Knicks off to another slow start at the Toronto Raptors. They trail 31-14 at the end of the first quarter. The only change for the starters was Nerlens Noel for Mitchell Robinson. Obi came in at the end of the quarter and made a basket for two points. i wonder how long Thibs will leave him in?
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Old 12-10-2021, 09:20 PM
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Highlight of said basket: https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...73547965898760

He's also made another bucket and 4 FTs. NYK are tied now. Obi is the leading scorer with 10.

Oop: https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...77287171170305

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Old 12-10-2021, 09:52 PM
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Old 12-10-2021, 10:32 PM
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Obi for 3: https://twitter.com/KnicksMSGN/statu...93649096560643

Obi tip: https://twitter.com/TheKnicksWall/st...91787891093504

Dunk City: https://twitter.com/KnicksMSGN/statu...95010596954113

Obi with 19 points in 24 minutes. I do believe the light bulb has been illuminated in Thibs' cranium. Next step is to have Obi actually finish the game, rather than sitting with 3 minutes to go.

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  #291  
Old 12-10-2021, 10:33 PM
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Obi with 23 minutes, 19 points, 9 rebounds so far. He has a bunch of dunks. 3:40 left in 4th quarter.
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Old 12-10-2021, 10:35 PM
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Obi has 19 points in 22 minutes tonight and he is still in the game in the fourth quarter of a close game with the Raptors! Thibs probably will leave him in for the duration now! This is what we all wanted! I can hardly believe it!
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Old 12-10-2021, 10:50 PM
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During the timeout at the 3:40 mark of the last quarter Thibs takes Obi out and replaces him in the lineup with Evan Fournier! I just don't know Thibs reasoning. Obi is tied with Barrett with 19 points for the leading scorer tonight!
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  #294  
Old 12-10-2021, 10:53 PM
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  #295  
Old 12-11-2021, 12:30 AM
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They are going to dangle Obi at the end of the season. I don’t think he’ll be in a Knick uniform next season, but I think he’ll be in a better situation.
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  #296  
Old 12-11-2021, 09:06 AM
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Thibs will be gone in NY before Obi. Heís a local kid, fan favorite, relatively cheap and has a high yet-to-be-tapped ceiling. Thibs, on the other hand, has lots of fingers being pointed his way.
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Old 12-11-2021, 07:24 PM
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Not good news: Obi is in COVID protocol:

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2021/12/....html#ref=home
[size=1][i]

Good news: As we already knew Obi is vaxxed so he may only miss one game:

https://mobile.twitter.com/StevePopper/status/1469804645837119494

Last edited by Swampy Meadows; 12-11-2021 at 09:53 PM..
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  #298  
Old 12-12-2021, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampy Meadows View Post
That is a portrait of a frustrated young man.
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Old 12-12-2021, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Thibs will be gone in NY before Obi. Heís a local kid, fan favorite, relatively cheap and has a high yet-to-be-tapped ceiling. Thibs, on the other hand, has lots of fingers being pointed his way.
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If the Knicks were smart, that would be the case. But the Knicks havenít won a title in 48 years, and donít look likely to do so this season either, so Iím not sure the words ďKnicksĒ and ďsmartĒ should be used in the same sentence.
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Old 12-12-2021, 03:56 PM
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Obi's next problem will be that he can't just be productive, he needs to show that playing him translates into wins not just good numbers for Obi
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