How realistic are we?

[Piqua Flyer '66]

It is hard to admit - we want to be a Top 25 program but we do not have/recruit the talent to do so. I thought against StL our defense showed the most intensity yet this year. I thought we moved the ball well on offense - BUT 30% shooting result will not get it.

How many players on our currrent roster, or for that matter the last 20 years, do you think actually had an scholarship offered from a annual Top 25 program? No, I don't mean they were scouted, contacted, visited the campus - I mean offerd a scholly, turned it down - and chose UD. How realistic are we to think we can be a Top 25 team without top 25 talent?

Back in th 90s I had the opportunity to caddie at the Nike Tournament at Yankee Trace. On Sat, as my foursome walked down the 16th fairway, one of the players commented after seeing the scoreboard. "Hey. Joe Blow shot
a 62 today. If he does that tomorrow he'll win this thing". Relpy from player I was caddying for, "If he could do that tomorrow he would not be here today",
obviously meaning he'd be on PGA Tour. Consistency!! That's what I see with our Flyers....lack of consistancy. DMO 26 vs. Ole Miss, zero today. Vee, Pierre....where were they today. If they could be consistent they would be in a Top 25 program.

Am I all wet?
Should we expect Top 25 teams without recruiting Top 25 talent.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by Piqua Flyer '66 How realistic are we to think we can be a Top 25 team without top 25 talent?

The problem is this: If Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc. can do it, there is no reason why we should not.

We have as many (or more) resources as those schools; we have as good or better academic reputation; we have more basketball tradition; we have a better fan base; we have as good or better facilities.

Thus, I can't find any excuses why we should not compete at that level every year. One single NCAA tournament win over the past 23 years is simply unexplainable for a school like UD...

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Piqua Flyer '66]

Think of the top of the line, consistent players at Butler, Gonzaga and Wichata St.......you are right, that is why they are Top 25. I agree 100%. with you that we can/should do it......my concern is we don't but we think we should be as CONSISTENTLY good as the 3 programs you mentioned.

Who do you think we have had in 20 years that chose UD over another Top 25 team?

[Fudd]

We have not had very many quality big guys. When we have had them, we were normally a tournament team. We have not had a big as good as Saint Louis Lowe in a long time. That is the difference between those other programs and us, IMO.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer The problem is this: If Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc. can do it, there is no reason why we should not. We have as many (or more) resources as those schools; we have as good or better academic reputation; we have more basketball tradition; we have a better fan base; we have as good or better facilities. Thus, I can't find any excuses why we should not compete at that level every year. One single NCAA tournament win over the past 23 years is simply unexplainable for a school like UD...

I don't know where to start with this kind of 'reasoning' . . . but let's try this:

There are 351 Div. I men's basketball programs in this country. They are all trying to win every game they play.
There are 20 to 30 premiere programs that are successful in that endeavor year in and year out. Dayton is not one of those 20 or 30 programs, though most years Dayton falls in the group comprised of the next 20 or 30 programs.
Dayton rarely falls outside the top one quarter of men's Div. I basketball programs, though I can't find any excuse why those other three quarters of the nation's basketball programs can't compete in that top one quarter every year.

". . . We have as many (or more) resources as those schools; we have as good or better academic reputation; we have more basketball tradition; we have a better fan base; we have as good or better facilities. . ."

If believing this makes you feel better, fine. I don't take any of that as a given, certainly not in the case of the four schools you cited.

It is what it is.

__________________
No one can ever gain strength by brooding over his weakness.
- Paramananda

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[TommyGola]

Originally Posted by Fudd We have not had very many quality big guys. When we have had them, we were normally a tournament team. We have not had a big as good as Saint Louis Lowe in a long time. That is the difference between those other programs and us, IMO.

I think you are right, Fudd. We need a big intimidating guy in the middle who can finish around the bucket. Something that has always concerned me is this. When we play some of the lower level D-1 teams, it always seems like they have some bigger, more active centers than what we can muster. The one that I keep pining about is the big center (Vucic) from Walsh. How did they ever land him? He is averaging almost 14 points per game and shoots the three-ball very well and has ravaged our centers every time Walsh has played us. I think the big centers are out there, but our coaches have always been enamored with other skills than size and the ability to finish around the bucket.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by Glen Clark There are 351 Div. I men's basketball programs in this country. They are all trying to win every game they play. There are 20 to 30 premiere programs that are successful in that endeavor year in and year out. Dayton is not one of those 20 or 30 programs, though most years Dayton falls in the group comprised of the next 20 or 30 programs. Dayton rarely falls outside the top one quarter of men's Div. I basketball programs, though I can't find any excuse why those other three quarters of the nation's basketball programs can't compete in that top one quarter every year.

I can: They don't have the resources; they don't have a fan base averaging over 11,000 per game every season; they don't play in an arena that has hosted more NCAA tournament games than any other facility in the country; they don't have much of a basketball tradition. There are many reasons why a Gardner-Webb or a Sacred Heart are not in the top quarter...

[Flyer68]

We are trying to rationalize the clear and obvious truth that we are extremely inconsistent and stunk yesterday. This was a chance to show a national TV audience and college BB world that we were a team to be afraid of. We blew it big time. I watched the whole game and probably yelled at the TV well into double figures. Maybe it was injuries and the week off after a big win at Ole Miss that hurt us. But we stunk. This game was nowhere near as close as the score might indicate or the announcers tried to get the audience to believe. Play same way and it's a 20 point blow out at SLU. Bill Parcells always said you are as good as your record says you are. I really don't care all that much about RPI and SOS. I care about winning. A loss is a loss. Even though we were only a 2 1/2 point favorite, this was another loss at home when we are favored to win (Southern Cal). If you can get to the basket, you should make the layup and making 50% yesterday would have resulted in a win. I thought I got all my frustrations out yesterday but I guess there were still some left over this morning. I am afraid to think which team will show up at Fordham? I also noticed that St. Bon is 11-5 and gave UMass a tough game yesterday. If we don't toughen up and start making shots from the floor and foul line, we may be happy with 8-8. This venting has tired me out!!!

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer I can: They don't have the resources; they don't have a fan base averaging over 11,000 per game every season; they don't play in an arena that has hosted more NCAA tournament games than any other facility in the country; they don't have much of a basketball tradition. There are many reasons why a Gardner-Webb or a Sacred Heart are not in the top quarter...

The hosting NCAA games mean absolutely nothing.

The 11,000 matters compared to the lower levels of Divison 1. Matters a lot less vs the top 100, which is what should really be the point. Who cares if you are better than the 250 worst programs in D1.

UD has the resources available to compete at a top 50 level.

[UDDoug]

The one point I'd add to this discussion is that direction of the program and program success over a period of time is a much different discussion than this year's team.

The program should succeed at a higher level. This year's team, I'm not so sure. I still don't see them as much better than a mid-pack A10 team. If the breaks fall right they could finish fourth, and if they don't around tenth. They are clearly not in the current year class of SLU, VCU and UMass.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer The problem is this: If Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc. can do it, there is no reason why we should not. We have as many (or more) resources as those schools; we have as good or better academic reputation; we have more basketball tradition; we have a better fan base; we have as good or better facilities. Thus, I can't find any excuses why we should not compete at that level every year. One single NCAA tournament win over the past 23 years is simply unexplainable for a school like UD...

Amen!!!

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[rollo]

Some of UD's fans are realistic...most UD fans are hopeful.

Meaning that some of us see the relative strengths of the team and coaching as well as the holes, gaps and weaknesses and see the future for what it is....while others say "there are 15 league games left so we still have a chance to go 15-1." and fully expect that result.

[UDBrian]

The future of UD basketball will be what the staff and players make it, has nothing to do with long term past or short term past.

If they can continue bringing in players of the caliber that have been arriving in the past two years they can be in the tournament repeatedly, and win in the tournament.

You bring in players with high potential and coach em up. So far Archie and company have shown the ability to improve players after their arrival.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by UDBrian So far Archie and company have shown the ability to improve players after their arrival.

Vee? Kavs?? Pierre??? Oliver???!!!?!

Have they improved?

Scott and Robinson have slightly improved...same with Price...but is it coaching or maturity?

I'm not in agreement with your statement.

[ud2]

There is still a lot of season left, this can still be a special year. SLU is projected to be one of the best teams in the A10. Teams do have bad games sometimes.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[ud2]

And I'm not trying to avoid reality here. IMO, for the part of the game I watched, UD did not look like a very good team yesterday. Lots of things they need to address. At times all of these things were problems IMO:

turnovers, lack of hustle/attitude of entitlement/act like they are better than they really are/lack of a sense of urgency, poor shot selection/lazy shot selection, not much of an inside game on offense, jacking up too many 3 pointers(especially when they jack up a 3 pointer early in the shot clock without trying to work the ball around to get a better shot or get the ball inside or drive to the basket), not driving to the basket enough, don't get the ball inside enough, and bad defense. I don't like the attitude of this team sometimes, seems to point to a culture problem. Hopefully that eventually gets addressed.

They didn't look like a NCAA tournament caliber team.

[dnutz77]

Originally Posted by rollo Vee? Kavs?? Pierre??? Oliver???!!!?! Have they improved? Scott and Robinson have slightly improved...same with Price...but is it coaching or maturity? I'm not in agreement with your statement.

What? Based on one game? DMO is leaps and bounds better than he was. Same for Gavs, Scott, and others. Tough to say about KP with the injuries. But if you don't think these guys have improved you aren't watching the same team. It's ine game and everyone is selling low on the stock?

[UDBrian]

Originally Posted by dnutz77 What? Based on one game? DMO is leaps and bounds better than he was. Same for Gavs, Scott, and others. Tough to say about KP with the injuries. But if you don't think these guys have improved you aren't watching the same team. It's ine game and everyone is selling low on the stock?

I agree. The trend is still upward despite a big sell off at 1PM yesterday

[bobber]

Ya know, all things aside, I still don't see that "Lemme attem" attitude that the good teams all seem to have. Wisconsin, every player has a motor that runs full speed, especially on defense, all game long. Xavier, Creighton, VCU, UMass, Michigan State...those teams never quit, nor are they intimidated.

We are.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by dnutz77 What? Based on one game? DMO is leaps and bounds better than he was. Same for Gavs, Scott, and others. Tough to say about KP with the injuries. But if you don't think these guys have improved you aren't watching the same team. It's ine game and everyone is selling low on the stock?

Leaps and bounds is a bit of an exaggeration for all of them. Devin was a double digit scorer and >9 rpg player last year in the non-conference portion of the schedule...so at this point of this season he's where he was in pts and lower in rbs.

Scott is a hair better than the end of last year but given >25 mpg, I bet he'd skyrocket. He doesn't play enough and for the sake of the future he and Robinson need more minutes and 35 less.

Gavs has had a couple good games but it took him a month to see the court...so I'm not sure he's improved and if so, it's probably more a function of health than coaching.

Vee? No way he's improved. But I think it's a function of his off-the-bench role than his talent.

Pierre? Has he improved over the last 15 games from last season? He averaged 10.4 ppg in A10 games last season and he's scoring 11.4 this season against the weak non-conference schedule. Like Vee I don't think Pierre likes sharing the spotlight with Sibert or Vee and came into this season expecting to be the 'go-to' guy. To me, he looks confused and reluctant...passes when last season he would have driven to the hoop.

Kavs...no comment because none is necessary and no argument could be made on his behalf by anyone.

Archie's coaching has improved...the defensive effort has improved...but based on a number of factors like shot selection and timing, attacking the basket, avoiding contact, FT% and a couple other variables, I'm not convinced that our players have improved from coaching any more than they've learned from experience.

Let me finish by saying this: DNutz knows more about basketball than me, sits in better seats than me (100 vs home) and analyzes play from a better vantage point than me...and it's not even close so I hate to even disagree with him!! So when he says the team is getting it and improving, I believe him! But beyond a couple glimpses of success, I just don't see it so far this season. But I'll keep an open mind...for now!

[El Shaqtus]

Originally Posted by Fudd We have not had very many quality big guys. When we have had them, we were normally a tournament team. We have not had a big as good as Saint Louis Lowe in a long time. That is the difference between those other programs and us, IMO.

Loe was the highest rated player Majerus brought in out of this year's senior class at SLU. He's playing the best defense of his career this year. You guys know who the other 3 are.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Avid Flyer]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer The problem is this: If Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc. can do it, there is no reason why we should not. We have as many (or more) resources as those schools; we have as good or better academic reputation; we have more basketball tradition; we have a better fan base; we have as good or better facilities. Thus, I can't find any excuses why we should not compete at that level every year. One single NCAA tournament win over the past 23 years is simply unexplainable for a school like UD...

And how many years di it take X and the others to get there. No magic formula. X gambled with prop48 players, marginal characters, and had a ship open just at the right time as top players transferred from their respective schools and X was lucky to be able to land them. Not sure Mack is the coach to keep them going; especially in the NBE. so far they are okay having played their NBE games on the friendly confines of the Cintas Center. Lets see how they do after some road games.

Butler is already down in the cellar where DePaul used to occupy; losing games at home. Not as easy as they thought. Right coach; he is already explaining their losses saying the need recruit a NBE big man.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Avid Flyer]

Also remember while disappointing as it was we played our absolute worst game of the year against the top A-10 team and only lost by 8 pts. A slimmer of hope.

[UD90]

It could be worse. A banged up Gonzaga lost to 9-7 Portland. RPI 161.

I wonder if they are on the ledge.

[FlyerGuyer]

Originally Posted by UDDoug The hosting NCAA games mean absolutely nothing. The 11,000 matters compared to the lower levels of Divison 1. Matters a lot less vs the top 100, which is what should really be the point. Who cares if you are better than the 250 worst programs in D1. UD has the resources available to compete at a top 50 level.

Nostradamus: The point was that there are indeed reasons why many schools cannot consistently compete at UD's level. However, I've yet to see any legitimate reasons why UD cannot compete at the level of a Xavier or a Gonzaga. We are similarly situated to them and, in many respects, better situated. Gonzaga's home gym seats 6,000, for instance. You can't tell me that UD Arena and the Dayton community's enthusiasm and support for the Flyers (and college basketball in general) is not a unique asset.

I don't expect us to compete consistently with the likes of Ohio State or Kentucky, but a Sweet 16 run every few years is not out of the question. Dayton has not been to the Sweet 16 in 30 years. That's inexplicable.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Whacker]

My benchmark conference finish and how many times to you get to the Tournament. Your conference opponents are your peer institutions. Get to the Tourney on a semi-regular basis and you will eventually get favorable match-ups, catch some breaks and go on a nice run.

[UDDoug]

Originally Posted by FlyerGuyer Nostradamus: The point was that there are indeed reasons why many schools cannot consistently compete at UD's level. However, I've yet to see any legitimate reasons why UD cannot compete at the level of a Xavier or a Gonzaga. We are similarly situated to them and, in many respects, better situated. Gonzaga's home gym seats 6,000, for instance. You can't tell me that UD Arena and the Dayton community's enthusiasm and support for the Flyers (and college basketball in general) is not a unique asset. I don't expect us to compete consistently with the likes of Ohio State or Kentucky, but a Sweet 16 run every few years is not out of the question. Dayton has not been to the Sweet 16 in 30 years. That's inexplicable.

Did you read the post. "UD has the resources to compete". Most of the post was refuting Glens point that there are 300 plus D1 teams. But also the idea that hosting NCAA games has anything to do with what the team does. And a it that drawing 11k doesn't give an advantage in being a top 25 team because there are enough that draw close enough to that.
Posted via Mobile Device

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[San Diego Flyer]

We seem to be a better team on the road. Is it better focus? Is it fewer campus distractions? I dunno. But really it is not productive to look backwards for too long. We play 3 of our next 4 on the road. If we are what we think we are, we will win the home game and 2 of the 3 road games. But we are toast if we keep laying offensive eggs like USC and SLU games. We have a make or break stretch coming up where we can prove the SLU game was an aberration---or not.

Next 4 RPI:

VCU .6023
UD .5967
URI .5004
FU .4712

Next 4 SOS:

UD .5670
VCU .5353
URI .5103
FU .4795

This is not a fantasy. We should be favored in all of them and win 3 of 4.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[FlyingArrow]

Originally Posted by Whacker My benchmark conference finish and how many times to you get to the Tournament. Your conference opponents are your peer institutions. Get to the Tourney on a semi-regular basis and you will eventually get favorable match-ups, catch some breaks and go on a nice run.

Every player for UD should be able to go to 3 NCAA tournaments, and most of them should see one Sweet 16. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. That doesn't make us one of the top 16 teams in the country... but it puts us in the top 40 or so. We are already in the top 50 more often than not - top 40 is a pretty big improvement but not something astronomical.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by bobber Ya know, all things aside, I still don't see that "Lemme attem" attitude that the good teams all seem to have. Wisconsin, every player has a motor that runs full speed, especially on defense, all game long. Xavier, Creighton, VCU, UMass, Michigan State...those teams never quit, nor are they intimidated. We are.

Right, this is exactly what I was getting at with my last post.

My last post was a little harsh regarding UD's hustle/attitude. UD's guys do play hard sometimes, I don't know, maybe UD guys play hard most of the time, I'm not sure how often they play their hardest, but it doesn't seem to me that they play close to their hardest close to every game. There are lapses.

When I watch some other teams play, I can tell that their guys are going harder than UD's guys do sometimes, and you just can't do that. Somebody like Duke or UK, with the top of the line players, can do that sometimes against weaker competition, but when you are UD, where honestly you are not getting the best of the best, you just can't do that. You have to bring it every single game, or you might get beat.

I watched most of the Xavier vs. Creighton game yesterday, both teams played very hard for almost the entire game.

And this doesn't mean that every other team plays harder than UD, I see other teams have lapses too.

If UD wants to maximize its potential, you've got to bring it every game. No loafing.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[ud2]

And I definitely still think UD is on the right track. I am definitely more optimistic regarding the future than I was at the end of the BG era(sorry for the BG putdown). UD just has to get a little sharper with their execution/play a little smarter and play a little harder. I think UD will be ok.

I'm not sure if they've got what it takes to make the tournament this year, but I still think Archie will eventually get them to where they need to be in the years to come.

[FlyingArrow]

Originally Posted by ud2 And I definitely still think UD is on the right track. I am definitely more optimistic regarding the future than I was at the end of the BG era(sorry for the BG putdown). UD just has to get a little sharper with their execution/play a little smarter and play a little harder. I think UD will be ok. I'm not sure if they've got what it takes to make the tournament this year, but I still think Archie will eventually get them to where they need to be in the years to come.

I think we're looking to be exactly where we always are: on the bubble. According to the A10 non-con, I think 5 teams really excelled: Dayton, SLU, VCU, UMass, GW. So much so that (coupled with the decent showing by the rest of the league), there's a lock that 3 A10 teams will go dancing, a strong chance of 4, and maybe even 5. Dayton's loss to SLU (at home) pretty clearly boosts SLU up a notch and Dayton down a notch, but we could still easily be the #4 or #5 team. (Maybe even #2 if SLU really is that good.) If that's the case, we'll be playing for our bid during the conference tournament... not needing to win it, but needing to advance.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[The Gem]

Here is the problem as I see it. UD hasn't been nationally relevant since the 1960's. We haven't had an NCAA tourny run since 1984 and have won two games in that tourney since.

We had a great coach and an AD in the 1960's that didn't change with the times and the game passed them by. Then they hired JOB, who obviously couldn't recruit and UD became one of the crappiest programs in the country. Then we got a new AD and he hired a coach to rebuild the program back to respectability. OP did that and moved on to a new challenge at Clemson. Then we hired BG to take us to the "next level." He didn't do that for reasons that have been discussed to death on here. Now we all hope Archie can do what BG couldn't. The jury is still out on Archie, but I like the sophomore and freshmen classes and think those players have the potential to take this program where we all want it to go in the next couple of years.

[bobber]

Originally Posted by The Gem Here is the problem as I see it. UD hasn't been nationally relevant since the 1960's. We haven't had an NCAA tourny run since 1984 and have won two games in that tourney since. We had a great coach and an AD in the 1960's that didn't change with the times and the game past them by. Then they hired JOB, who obviously couldn't recruit and UD became one of the crappiest programs in the country. Then we got a new AD and he hired a coach to rebuild the program back to respectability. OP did that and moved on to a new challenge at Clemson. Then we hired BG to take us to the "next level." He didn't do that for reasons that have been discussed to death on here. Now we all hope Archie can do what BG couldn't. The jury is still out on Archie, but I like the sophomore and freshmen classes and think those players have the potential to take this program where we all want it to go in the next couple of years.

I hear you, but.......

Yes, Archie seems to be a good recruiter. I say "good" not great. But all you have to do is look at X and VCU to see that teams in the A-10 can and do get absolute top talent regularly. Archie has a long way to go to draw even with Shaka and Mack.

But what bothers me is this.......I don't see the Flyers playing hard and playing smart. Sorry, I just don't see it. By the middle of the second half against SLU every Flyer fan in the Arena knew....KNEW....the game was over. You could see it in the body language of the team. And that is unacceptable. I want a coach that can motivate. No giving up....EVER. It was the same when USC stole the game from us, and when ISU got spotted several easy baskets that turned what should have been a road win into a road loss.

I grew up on the Flyers in the 60's. Those kids were tough and they knew what they were doing. Compare and contrast to today's team. Nobody on this team wants to take the last shot. That pretty much sums it up.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by bobber I hear you, but....... Yes, Archie seems to be a good recruiter. I say "good" not great. But all you have to do is look at X and VCU to see that teams in the A-10 can and do get absolute top talent regularly. Archie has a long way to go to draw even with Shaka and Mack. But what bothers me is this.......I don't see the Flyers playing hard and playing smart. Sorry, I just don't see it. By the middle of the second half against SLU every Flyer fan in the Arena knew....KNEW....the game was over. You could see it in the body language of the team. And that is unacceptable. I want a coach that can motivate. No giving up....EVER. It was the same when USC stole the game from us, and when ISU got spotted several easy baskets that turned what should have been a road win into a road loss. I grew up on the Flyers in the 60's. Those kids were tough and they knew what they were doing. Compare and contrast to today's team. Nobody on this team wants to take the last shot. That pretty much sums it up.

Let's review the 60's. In 61-62 we started out 13-6. Expert fans were up in arms, the sky was falling. Of course we didn't lose another game and won our first NIT. Good run in 66-67, national runnerup, three nail bitter games to get to the final four but we did it.. 67-68, ranked #6 preseason, started out 7-9, poof went the ranking. Went on another streak and won our second NIT. We had up and down periods then too. We tend to forget that.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[The Gem]

Originally Posted by bobber I hear you, but....... Yes, Archie seems to be a good recruiter. I say "good" not great. But all you have to do is look at X and VCU to see that teams in the A-10 can and do get absolute top talent regularly. Archie has a long way to go to draw even with Shaka and Mack. But what bothers me is this.......I don't see the Flyers playing hard and playing smart. Sorry, I just don't see it. By the middle of the second half against SLU every Flyer fan in the Arena knew....KNEW....the game was over. You could see it in the body language of the team. And that is unacceptable. I want a coach that can motivate. No giving up....EVER. It was the same when USC stole the game from us, and when ISU got spotted several easy baskets that turned what should have been a road win into a road loss. I grew up on the Flyers in the 60's. Those kids were tough and they knew what they were doing. Compare and contrast to today's team. Nobody on this team wants to take the last shot. That pretty much sums it up.

If that is true how do you account for the wins against IPFW, Gonzaga, and Ole Miss? They didn't give up on those games and got some hard fought wins. I think we lack the senior leaders a program like UD needs and we have a lot of sophomores and freshmen doing a lot of the heavy lifting so the team has had mixed results.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Glen Clark]

Originally Posted by FlyingArrow I think we're looking to be exactly where we always are: on the bubble. . .

Aways?
We were nowhere near the bubble last year - we were lucky to make the conference tournament.

How quickly we forget . . .

___________________
You have got to buck up, man. You cannot drag this negative energy into the tournament!
Walter Sobchak - The Big Lebowski

[bobber]

I can certainly agree that the seniors didn't show up at all. Kavs might have, had he not been stepped on early in the game.

If any one of you thought you saw a determined, confident team out on the floor in the second half against SLU, tell us what you saw and why you feel as you do. I saw a group of players that was resigned to accepting a bad outcome.

As for IPFW and Ole Miss, A) neither was a physical defensive team, and B) we used up our supply of luck for the next five years by hitting the last second shots that we did. As for Gonzaga, we beat them fair and square. I don't think they were particularly well prepared for us, which was a huge plus. Once again, the Zags are more of a finesse team. Aside from the big Polish kid they had no one to bang underneath.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by bobber I can certainly agree that the seniors didn't show up at all. Kavs might have, had he not been stepped on early in the game. If any one of you thought you saw a determined, confident team out on the floor in the second half against SLU, tell us what you saw and why you feel as you do. I saw a group of players that was resigned to accepting a bad outcome. As for IPFW and Ole Miss, A) neither was a physical defensive team, and B) we used up our supply of luck for the next five years by hitting the last second shots that we did. As for Gonzaga, we beat them fair and square. I don't think they were particularly well prepared for us, which was a huge plus. Once again, the Zags are more of a finesse team. Aside from the big Polish kid they had no one to bang underneath.

Somehow they need to find the confidence they gained in Atlanta vs. GT and took to Maui. Remember vs both GT and Gonzaga, they were down double digits and came back. There was a loose, cockiness there. I haven't seen it against anyone since.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[The Gem]

Originally Posted by bobber I can certainly agree that the seniors didn't show up at all. Kavs might have, had he not been stepped on early in the game. If any one of you thought you saw a determined, confident team out on the floor in the second half against SLU, tell us what you saw and why you feel as you do. I saw a group of players that was resigned to accepting a bad outcome. As for IPFW and Ole Miss, A) neither was a physical defensive team, and B) we used up our supply of luck for the next five years by hitting the last second shots that we did. As for Gonzaga, we beat them fair and square. I don't think they were particularly well prepared for us, which was a huge plus. Once again, the Zags are more of a finesse team. Aside from the big Polish kid they had no one to bang underneath.

I would agree they were neither confident nor determined against SLU. I think they are very inconsistent, and at times look like a sweet 16 team and others look like they will be on the bubble for A10 tourny again this year. If they get better as the season goes on, then they might sneek into the NCAA, but I'm thinking it is more likely another NIT year.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.