UDPride Discussion Forums    
     

Go Back   UDPride Discussion Forums > UDPRIDE SPORTS FORUMS > Mens Basketball

» Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
» Advertisement
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #201  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:26 PM
Viperstick Viperstick is offline
General
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: At your high 6, in a gun WEZ
Posts: 6,856
Thanks: 3,466
Thanked 4,829 Times in 2,232 Posts
Viperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond reputeViperstick has a reputation beyond repute
...so I guess everyone walks around campus these days ensconced in bubble wrap?
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Viperstick For This Totally Excellent Post:
Atlantic 10 (09-27-2015), Flyer 86 (09-28-2015)
Advertisement
  #202  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:33 PM
Sea Bass Sea Bass is online now
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,406
Thanks: 866
Thanked 6,301 Times in 3,004 Posts
Sea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond reputeSea Bass has a reputation beyond repute
It seems that suspending someone for an entire semester is a case where the punishment in no way fits the violation.
Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:33 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Viperstick View Post
...so I guess everyone walks around campus these days ensconced in bubble wrap?
No, I bet the code of conduct is violated over and over again. The punishment appears out of line in the case of a first offense. Probably every hearing on this aspect of the code of conduct is a he said she said.

That doesn't mean the lack of criminal charges is the standard by which eligibility is determined or should be.
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 09-27-2015, 06:26 PM
College B-Ball Fan College B-Ball Fan is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,033
Thanks: 2,278
Thanked 1,355 Times in 586 Posts
College B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond reputeCollege B-Ball Fan has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Not saying it is right, but this is 2015, and from stories I hear from my son, nephew, and a few of their college age friends, if this code is enforced for everyone, 90% of the students at most colleges would be kicked off campus.
I believe that DP signed numerous documents that specifically stated that "if" this behavior occurred and was reported, this "would/may be" the end result!

Just saying'-----all of that plus what athletics says/does over and over each and every year--------hard to say he didn't have an adequate warning!

Again, making no suggestion that given these facts, what has transpired is appropriate-----but as we all know, you go to bed with somebody there are "sometimes" ramifications!
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 09-27-2015, 07:14 PM
Avid Flyer's Avatar
Avid Flyer Avid Flyer is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
Avid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
No, I bet the code of conduct is violated over and over again. The punishment appears out of line in the case of a first offense. Probably every hearing on this aspect of the code of conduct is a he said she said.

That doesn't mean the lack of criminal charges is the standard by which eligibility is determined or should be.
No but to give one student a vocie and deny the other is contrary to what we have all believed to be faairness and equal rights.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 09-27-2015, 08:39 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
Why would you think he had no voice? These hearings typically do allow both sides to present their case. I do think a certain bias is embedded by process, but typically there is a voice and some appeal rights. Every athlete know the combination of alcohol and sex may turn out as it did.

I may not think the process is entirely fair, but the outcome is far from surprising.
Posted via Mobile Device
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to UDDoug For This Totally Excellent Post:
rollo (09-27-2015)
  #207  
Old 09-27-2015, 11:08 PM
T-Bone 84's Avatar
T-Bone 84 T-Bone 84 is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Shiloh, OH
Posts: 8,413
Thanks: 2,350
Thanked 4,994 Times in 2,668 Posts
T-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond reputeT-Bone 84 has a reputation beyond repute
I think Avid's point is, Pierre is being punished very harshly, which leads to the impression that the University sided almost completely with the complainant in this matter. We'll never know if the complainant would have been subject to the same level of sanctions, since she had (for all intents and purposes) attended her last class at UD at the time she came forth with the allegation. But, given that Pierre had never been in any trouble worth noting in his nearly 3 years at UD, a full-semester suspension seems a bit much for something that happens probably at least a dozen times every weekend on and/or around campus.

Actually, Pierre's punishment is reminiscent of Steve Martin's suggestion (from his stand-up days in the '70s) for how to reduce the country's crime rate: give the death penalty for parking violations.
Posted via Mobile Device
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 09-28-2015, 08:58 AM
SC_Flyer's Avatar
SC_Flyer SC_Flyer is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,204
Thanks: 816
Thanked 607 Times in 303 Posts
SC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud ofSC_Flyer has much to be proud of
Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
I'm not trying to minimize your thoughts here, but it wasn't 8 weeks. The incident occurred on 4/22-23, she told friends on 4/29, and talked to UDPD on 5/5. So, we're talking less than 2 weeks total between incident and UDPD investigation.
The timeline of it all is what made this jump out to me:

Ms. BLANK1 also told me that Ms. BLANK2 had texedt her about what happened between her and Mr. BLANK3 after the event, but those text messages are not longer there.

So somehow this set of texts got deleted, but the friend still had the texts from before the incident?

I was on the fence about this whole issue before reading the report, but now am completely in DP's camp. This is purely based on my experience as a parent hearing plenty of "kid1 vs kid2" stories. In my experience (feel free to beat me up here), the kid that had a higher level of detail in their story was usually the truth teller. It is simply too hard to create detailed stories that hold up to examination. DP's level of detail dwarfs the compainant's.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to SC_Flyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
Flyer 86 (09-28-2015)
  #209  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:30 AM
FlyerNation23 FlyerNation23 is offline
1st Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 130
Thanks: 5
Thanked 140 Times in 60 Posts
FlyerNation23 is just really niceFlyerNation23 is just really niceFlyerNation23 is just really niceFlyerNation23 is just really niceFlyerNation23 is just really nice
Might receive backlash here but I think this is clearly a case when the so called "victim" had remorse of a 1 night stand and panicked that she threw away the 5 yr relationship with her boyfriend. With the fear of her friends telling her boyfriend of her one night stand, she went down the path of blaming Pierre. Sad to think she has ruined Pierre life at UD while she is enjoying a happy life at OSU. If the girl already had 1 foot out the door, I think she could care less about the backlash that UD receives because of this.

If anybody needs to be punished here, it is the title 9 office. The seem like a group of people who could care less about innocent until proven guilty.

She provided 0 evidence and Title 9 has 0 evidence to prove that Peirre did something wrong. If drinking and hooking up with people was against the code of conduct, safe to say that all sports teams (both boys and girls teams) at every university would be low on players.

Is UD turning into BYU?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/co...ticle-1.116874

Our only hope is Curran, Board of Trustees, or big time donors step in and fight for a fair hearing.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to FlyerNation23 For This Totally Excellent Post:
224 (09-28-2015), bhflyer5 (09-28-2015)
  #210  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:32 AM
FlyerNation23 FlyerNation23 is offline
1st Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 130
Thanks: 5
Thanked 140 Times in 60 Posts
FlyerNation23 is just really niceFlyerNation23 is just really niceFlyerNation23 is just really niceFlyerNation23 is just really niceFlyerNation23 is just really nice
safe to say if we do not hear anything this week, the chances of Pierre playing this semester is very low
Reply With Quote
  #211  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:38 AM
Gazoo's Avatar
Gazoo Gazoo is offline
General
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 6,566
Thanks: 5,146
Thanked 5,434 Times in 2,374 Posts
Gazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
There are two things at play here. Was a crime committed - well no charges will be brought. Was the student code of conduct violated? That answer is unequivocally yes as the code has been explained to me. Set up, not set up, consensual - it doesn't matter. ANY alcohol consumption AND sexual relations in combination IS a violation of the code of conduct. The code presumes ANY alcohol consumption makes informed consent impossible.

So, arguing code of conduct, or the process to convict on code of conduct, is pretty much impossible to litigate. Both parties public statement in the police report freely admit violating the code of conduct.

Question is whether the punushment is proportionate to the violation.
Posted via Mobile Device
Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
I am sure that is true. But they are not going out looking for offenses but reacting to what is reported.

But I have had several tell me, including current students, tell me the code says any alcohol nullifies the ability to consent. If so both parties freely admitted violations of the code of conduct. The suspension is based on that violation, not whether or not a crime was committed.

Given the likely frequency of the violation one can question the severity of punishment. But are there other factors influencing the severity - zero tolerance for basketball, prior offenses, preponderance of witnesses, etc. I have no idea.
Here's the conflicting lines of thinking we need to keep in mind when sorting through this muck.

1. The girl claims she was raped, but doesn't want to press charges. Sorry, if anyone rapes me or any member of my family, you can expect to have lawsuits rain down from the sky upon the shallow grave where the body of the accused can be found. (Not an actual threat of violence)

2. She instead "just" wants him to be punished. So, to get back at him, she reports . . . what? A student code of conduct violation? No. She reports a rape!

So for those of you saying "the student code of conduct is clear" and "the victim needs to be protected" you're going to need to sort this out for me.

For what reason was DP suspended?

If it was a code of conduct violation, what is the standard "violation of team rules" type of suspension for a code of conduct violation?

Let's assume it's the typical "1 game suspension, we're handling this in house" kind of thing, until someone says otherwise. You know, kind of like cheating on a test or something like that.

If that's the case (?), then 10 games is clearly because of the accusation of rape.

If DP is suspended 10 games because he's accused of rape, then everyone needs to stop saying he was suspended because of a violation of the student code of conduct.
Reply With Quote
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Gazoo For This Totally Excellent Post:
FLYER5 (09-29-2015), Smitty10 (09-28-2015), UDGutter2 (09-28-2015)
  #212  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:52 AM
springborofan springborofan is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Springboro
Posts: 2,415
Thanks: 2,210
Thanked 2,761 Times in 1,129 Posts
springborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond reputespringborofan has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Here's the conflicting lines of thinking we need to keep in mind when sorting through this muck.

1. The girl claims she was raped, but doesn't want to press charges. Sorry, if anyone rapes me or any member of my family, you can expect to have lawsuits rain down from the sky upon the shallow grave where the body of the accused can be found. (Not an actual threat of violence)

2. She instead "just" wants him to be punished. So, to get back at him, she reports . . . what? A student code of conduct violation? No. She reports a rape!

So for those of you saying "the student code of conduct is clear" and "the victim needs to be protected" you're going to need to sort this out for me.

For what reason was DP suspended?

If it was a code of conduct violation, what is the standard "violation of team rules" type of suspension for a code of conduct violation?

Let's assume it's the typical "1 game suspension, we're handling this in house" kind of thing, until someone says otherwise. You know, kind of like cheating on a test or something like that.

If that's the case (?), then 10 games is clearly because of the accusation of rape.

If DP is suspended 10 games because he's accused of rape, then everyone needs to stop saying he was suspended because of a violation of the student code of conduct.
I agree with everyone you said. And what makes it more tragic is that Pierre is now out of school for a semester. How is he supposed to complete his degree?? The punishment includes Pierre now having one of two choices. Re-enroll in the spring which means he'll need to pay for his last semester to secure enough credits to graduate. OR, transfer to another school and play for an entire season. Transferring has risks as well because not all credits will transfer.

So, the financial penalty to Pierre is HUGE. hopefully his attorney is fighting to get UD to pay for his final semester (which sucks as well because he is going to want to play professionally).

The more I think of it from a degree perspective, I think DP will never play for UD again UNLESS the decision is reversed THIS WEEK.
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 09-28-2015, 10:59 AM
N2663R N2663R is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 2,319
Thanks: 4
Thanked 1,489 Times in 764 Posts
N2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond repute
Per Rollo's link, here are some selected quotes from the UD Sexual Harassment/Misconduct Policy which hopefully can clarify some of the procedural questions. Sorry this is so long:

Terms

Effective Consent:

Whether sexual misconduct has occurred depends in part on whether “effective consent” exists. Effective consent is granted when a person freely, actively, and knowingly agrees at the time to participate in a particular sexual act with a particular person. Effective Consent exists when mutually understandable words and/or actions demonstrate a willingness to participate in mutually-agreed-upon activity at every stage of that sexual activity. Effective consent has time boundaries. Consent at one time does not imply consent at another time. The existence of a dating/romantic relationship between the persons involved or the fact of a previous sexual relationship does not automatically establish effective consent for future sexual activity. There is no consent when agreement is only inferred from a person’s silence or lack of resistance; there is threat of physical force, harm or intimidation, or there is coercion. There is no consent when the person is under the age of 16. There is no consent when someone engaging in sexual behavior knew or should have known that the other person was incapacitated. Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent.


University Hearing Board Procedure for cases of Sexual Harassment

The University Hearing Board (UHB) facilitates Accountability Hearings for cases that involve accusations of sexual harassment. Cases that include allegations of sexual violence are required to be heard by the University Hearing Board but the board may hear other types of accusations at the discretion of the Associate Dean in consultation with the Title IX Coordinator.

The University Hearing Board members are provided a copy of the Title IX investigatory report as well as any supplemental documents provided by the investigatory team as a part of the case. For the purposes of sexual harassment conduct cases the investigatory report serves as the case packet.

Neither the complainant nor the accused student is permitted to submit/present a Written Account, supplemental documents or witnesses to the University Hearing Board directly. The UHB will only consider information and witnesses illustrated in the investigatory report (i.e. Case Packet).

Both the accused and the complainant can request a redacted copy of the case packet during their initial meeting as a part of the student conduct process. For the accused this meeting is called a ‘Behavioral Hearing’ and it follows the same procedures as those illustrated on page 28 of the Student Handbook. For the complainant, this meeting is called a process review meeting. Process review meetings follow the same procedure as a Behavioral Hearing but from the perspective of the complainant rather than as an accused student.

The UHB consists of 3 to 5 trained community members and has a majority of student members in each hearing.

Findings and consequences are voted on and approved by a majority vote.

Board members vote using a preponderance of the evidence standard to determine what more likely than not occurred.

In addition to the 3 to 5 board members, each hearing is facilitated by a University Hearing Board chair. The chair is responsible for administering the procedures of the hearing. The chair of the hearing participates in the questioning portion of the hearing and maintains order throughout the process but does not vote on responsibility or consequences.

Generally, the UHB will not have access to the student’s disciplinary history (or lack thereof) prior to or during the hearing unless the student chooses to verbally reveal the information during the hearing. The Associate Dean, in consultation with the Title IX Coordinator can alter this practice as indicated in the Title IX investigatory procedures. The University Hearing Board will be provided the student’s disciplinary history only after a student has been found responsible for a violation for the purposes of assigning consequences.

The results of the University Hearing Board are not shared with the student until the business day following the hearing and are shared in person. Both the complainant and the accused will be asked to schedule a results meeting for the day following the hearing.

The hearing will consist of a presentation of facts by members of the investigatory team, questions from the board to both the accused and the complainant, questions to any witness presented, and may include board members asking participants questions that have been submitted by one party to the other.

During the course of the hearing the board will allow both parties to submit questions they would like to have asked of the other or to key witnesses. All questions submitted must be approved by the UHB in collaboration with the Title IX investigators present at the hearing. The board determines the questions they will ask by considering the relevance of the content to their purpose, their need for the information in order to make a decision and the appropriateness of the question. This approval process is closed to both parties. Additionally, witnesses are not compelled to participate in the University Hearing Board process and can only be addressed if present. The UHB is not required to provide rational for the acceptance or denial of any question. The UHB will not approve any question that causes one to re-state content already presented. In order to participate in this portion of the hearing the student must: a. Submit any questions that address content within the case packet within three days following the Behavioral Hearing or Process Review Meeting. b. Be prepared to submit any questions that address information that occurred during the course of the hearing to the UHB following a 10-15 minute break. c. Students have 3 days following their Behavioral Hearing or process review meeting to submit questions they would like to have the board ask of the other party or of key witnesses.

Character witnesses are not permitted as a part of the hearing but letters of character may be submitted to the board for review upon deliberation of consequences. Character letters will only be accepted when they address the character of the student submitting the letter. Letters degrading the character of another will not be accepted and any content held within a letter that appears degrading to another will cause the entirety of the letter to be removed.

Neither the accused nor the complainant is permitted to have direct dialogue with one another during the hearing. All questions and comments are to be directed to a University Hearing Board member or to the chair of the hearing.

No student is required to participate in (verbally respond) a hearing and can choose to attend or not attend. However, in cases where the accused and/or the complainant do not attend the scheduled hearing the UHB will continue to review and deliberate the case, issue findings and consequences where appropriate in the student’s absence. While participation is not required, it should be noted that choosing not to participate could affect the final outcome.

Hearings held by the University Hearing Board are recorded. This recording becomes part of the students’ disciplinary record and can be accessed for review.

Alcohol and/or drug related allegations associated with cases of sexual harassment will not be pursued with either the accused or the complainant.

The University reserves the right to proceed to a finding in all cases regardless of a student’s withdrawal from the University.

The complainant and accused student will not have access to any part of the other’s previous disciplinary record should there be a record on file.

Standard consequences for a violation of sexual harassment range from educational interventions to expulsion. In cases that include sexual violence the likely consequence is suspension or expulsion if found responsible.

Those accused of sexual violence may also face criminal charges. The student conduct process will proceed regardless of criminal action.



Rights of an Accused Student
to request (in compliance with procedure) an appeal of the findings (not consequences) of any hearing before the University Hearing Board in accordance with the appeal process described in the Student Standards of Behavior
(This is 1 of 8 rights. It does not address the speed of the process. Had the process gone forward before the end of the Spring semester, DP could have possibly serve his "suspension" during the summer semester -or- at the every least, had the opportunity to fight the decision/consequences, all summer long.)

Here is the link to the entire policy/procedure: https://udayton.edu/studev/dean/civi...misconduct.php
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to N2663R For This Totally Excellent Post:
rollo (09-28-2015)
  #214  
Old 09-28-2015, 11:34 AM
NCkevi's Avatar
NCkevi NCkevi is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,269
Thanks: 327
Thanked 3,076 Times in 1,229 Posts
NCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond reputeNCkevi has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Here's the conflicting lines of thinking we need to keep in mind when sorting through this muck.

1. The girl claims she was raped, but doesn't want to press charges. Sorry, if anyone rapes me or any member of my family, you can expect to have lawsuits rain down from the sky upon the shallow grave where the body of the accused can be found. (Not an actual threat of violence)
Obviously posted by a man who doesn't think that women who press rape charges, especially against athletes or celebrities, are ever harrassed, threatened or automatically assumed to be lying
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 09-28-2015, 12:16 PM
Flyer 86's Avatar
Flyer 86 Flyer 86 is offline
General
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 7,172
Thanks: 31,820
Thanked 1,267 Times in 785 Posts
Flyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer 86 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by tirebiter View Post
One problem I have not seen mentioned is the number of classes DP has missed already. Isn't there still a rule that says if you miss more than a certain number of classes in a semester it means a mandatory F? The max used to be twice the number of times the class meets per week.

Can DP be enrolled this semester, say a month from now, and qualify for the first 10 games but get mandatory F's this semester and then not be eligible for next semester due to grades?

Seems like if he is going to play this semester this needs to be resolved soon and he has to be back in the classroom within a week.
I would hope and think the U can extend his time for coursework and homework to catch up, even if it means running into Jan 1. They opened this door so they should be lenient and flexible , if the case gets turned around and he is readmitted fairly quickly.

What a big Cluster!
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Flyer 86 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Avid Flyer (09-28-2015)
  #216  
Old 09-28-2015, 12:58 PM
Gazoo's Avatar
Gazoo Gazoo is offline
General
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 6,566
Thanks: 5,146
Thanked 5,434 Times in 2,374 Posts
Gazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
Obviously posted by a man who doesn't think that women who press rape charges, especially against athletes or celebrities, are ever harrassed, threatened or automatically assumed to be lying
Good thing she avoided that set of pitfalls.

EDIT: Actually, that's my point entirely. If she felt she would be accused, harassed, or assumed to be lying (all part of a sad situation), but wanted to get justice, all she had to do was tell the officer she was drunk. DP still gets in huge trouble for violating the code of conduct but likely no one seriously questions the story.

But she didn't! She made the rape claim -- that comes with all the same downsides (publicity) but none of the upside (a sexual predator is taken off the streets and punished).

It's a little bit like saying "I witnessed the mob murder my loved one but I don't want to get shot myself, so I'm not going to report this to the police. Instead, I'm going to give a series on-camera interviews with all the local media outlets." It's got all the same downsides you're worried about but without the benefit of actually getting the terrible people put in jail.

Last edited by Gazoo; 09-28-2015 at 01:10 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 09-28-2015, 05:03 PM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
Originally Posted by NCkevi View Post
Obviously posted by a man who doesn't think that women who press rape charges, especially against athletes or celebrities, are ever harrassed, threatened or automatically assumed to be lying
Incidentally, it goes both ways. Athletes and celebrities are often victims of false rape accusations and they, themselves, are the ones harassed, threatened and automatically assumed to be guilty.

UVA fraternity, Duke lacross and Dez Wells have already been mentioned. Let me also mention Brian Banks, Kobe Bryant, Jameis Winston and "Mattress girl".

I find it reprehensible that many in our society take the vict...- er, accuser's words at face value. If you question the accuser's story or motives, you're now guilty of "slut shaming". But an incredible number of rape cases/accusations fall apart. And it often has nothig to do with the accuser being threatened or harassed into submission.

In this country you're innocent until proven guilty. (Yes, there are certainly instances where "innocence" still looks rather guilty, such as with OJ Simpson.) But with accused rapists, you're guilty until, well, often forever.

Sadly, there is an incredible amount of "power" the alleged victim wields in these cases. And as much as rape is about "power", so is falsely accusing someone of rape. But how often do you see/hear false rape accusers being criminally prosecuted? It's pretty much a win-win scenario. If people believe you (the accuser), you've ruined someone's life for life. If people don't believe you, you've still permanently created a cloud over the accused's head while almost always getting away without your own criminal/legal proceedings.

=============================

With that said - and if any of you even read that - I must say I did not read all 3 pages in this thread.

So I have a few questions:

I assume Pierre's Code of Conduct (CoC) hearing was held and he was found in violation of some statute.

1. What was he found responsible for violating in the CoC?

2. Are there links to the police/investigative reports in their redacted forms?

CoC hearings are notorious kangaroo courts. There is no legal burden of proof. There is no "beyond a reasonable doubt". It's absurd that schools are forced by the Federal Government to enact their own investigations and hearings on these matters. Universities were not created for this purpose and they're simply not good at this function.

Considering the PD didn't find enough evidence to charge Pierre, the only thing I can conclude is that this CoC hearing believe Pierre's status as a basketball player "intimidated" the accuser into unwillingly having sex (Excerpt: Real or perceived power differentials between individuals may create an intentional or
unintentional atmosphere of coercion or manipulation.
). Except, what proof of there is that? From what I've read, the girl didn't even make that claim.
Reply With Quote
  #218  
Old 09-28-2015, 06:46 PM
UDTradition UDTradition is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NJ
Posts: 625
Thanks: 759
Thanked 407 Times in 203 Posts
UDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant future
I am requesting our members who support UD's position on this issue to "speak out" in this forum. I am getting tired of hearing the same thing over and over again...so far...we all agree with almost everything that has been written on this forum (to date).

Let me state first that I have 2 daughters that have gone to fine universities. I have read the transcript of the police report. Had my daughter been raped...I would have forced her to go to the police and demand justice. This young lady's behavior appears to be equivalent to half-pregnant. She appears to realize that she has the upper hand and wants some sort of punishment for his behavior. She does not appear to take any responsibility for repeatedly placing herself in harm's way. If I read this report and my daughter's actions and behavior were accurately communicated in the report then I would have counselled her to stop ****ting and get off the pot.

If you support UD's position...please speak out.
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 09-28-2015, 07:51 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UDTradition View Post
If you support UD's position...please speak out.
Pierre knew better. He has only himself to blame!
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #220  
Old 09-28-2015, 07:58 PM
San Diego Flyer's Avatar
San Diego Flyer San Diego Flyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 14,788
Thanks: 10,086
Thanked 10,502 Times in 4,704 Posts
San Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
So did she. The penalty does not fit the evidence as so far recorded---too harsh.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to San Diego Flyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
Gazoo (09-29-2015)
  #221  
Old 09-28-2015, 08:03 PM
hawkoooo's Avatar
hawkoooo hawkoooo is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 2,970
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 1,764 Times in 929 Posts
hawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond reputehawkoooo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UDTradition View Post

If you support UD's position...please speak out.
This girl wasn't raped. Rape is physically forcing yourself onto and into someone.

How can anyone support UD on this one? Suspend your best player for a whole semester over a bogus "rape" claim from some chick that doesn't even attend UD anymore? Get real dude.
Reply With Quote
  #222  
Old 09-28-2015, 08:07 PM
NorthwestFlyer NorthwestFlyer is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,777
Thanks: 790
Thanked 598 Times in 332 Posts
NorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeNorthwestFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
Agree with Rollo, Pierre knew better, they are both guilty of breaking the student code and I believe athletes at the University should be held to a high standard of behavior. That said, the severity of the punishment, the untimeliness of the findings, and the accusation of sexual assault are over the top.

Last edited by NorthwestFlyer; 09-28-2015 at 08:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:05 PM
Runnin' Rebel's Avatar
Runnin' Rebel Runnin' Rebel is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,132
Thanks: 2,517
Thanked 1,325 Times in 444 Posts
Runnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond reputeRunnin' Rebel has a reputation beyond repute
I cannot judge the University's Hearing Board decision without having all of the information...

The hearing will consist of:
1.) a presentation of facts by members of the investigatory team
2.) questions from the board to both the accused and the complainant
3.) questions to any witness presented
4.) board members asking participants questions that have been submitted by one party to the other.


All we know is the #1 (information from a redacted UDPD report)... and we don't really know what the investigatory team determined as fact out of that report.
Reply With Quote
  #224  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:26 PM
Flyer69ers Flyer69ers is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,173
Thanks: 1,649
Thanked 739 Times in 348 Posts
Flyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant futureFlyer69ers has a brilliant future
I posted this on 9/24:

I am 100% in DP's corner and hope he is 100% exonerated.

But I cannot fault the University for erring on the side of "the law" (???)
and the University's "image"
while this is being sorted out.

But my better half tells me that "he is innocent until proven guilty"

The two halves of this coin.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Flyer69ers For This Totally Excellent Post:
Flyer2 (09-28-2015)
  #225  
Old 09-28-2015, 10:53 PM
Flyer2 Flyer2 is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 702
Thanks: 302
Thanked 330 Times in 192 Posts
Flyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond reputeFlyer2 has a reputation beyond repute
I don't support the University and the kangaroo court.

Bad judgement on both of them-

1. both athletes
2. both drinking
3. so both guilty of "rape"
4. remorse and try to hide it from the boyfriend
5. she told her girlfriends who called it rape
6. after girlfriends got involved she could not stop the runaway train.

Athletes should be held to the "same standards" as any other student.
If these standards were applied to all students then the University would close down.

Punishment way over the top!

Down with Barney Fife!!!!
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Flyer2 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Bat'71 (09-29-2015)
  #226  
Old 09-28-2015, 11:00 PM
GoFlyer's Avatar
GoFlyer GoFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Centerville
Posts: 346
Thanks: 1,429
Thanked 644 Times in 187 Posts
GoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
"I am requesting our members who support UD's position on this issue to "speak out" in this forum. I am getting tired of hearing the same thing over and over again...so far...we all agree with almost everything that has been written on this forum (to date). "


I have been very outspoken in the past about the integrity of the administration and my personal belief in them. That is why the current situation has me so upset.

I just cannot support them on this. The punishment does not fit the offense, the process was flawed, the time delay was inexcusable, and a young man has been greatly damaged. I am not against holding students accountable, but automatically deeming alcohol and sex as co-conditions that negate the possibility of consent is just ludicrous and extreme. About as extreme and unrealistic a position on sex as "just say no". And then to put that black and white policy in the hands of students with no ability to weigh circumstance, legal liability and entrapment is just the biggest abdication of responsibility I can imagine. Hiding behind the students! Absolutely amazing.
There is NOTHING that can make me support the administration on this one.

Last edited by GoFlyer; 09-28-2015 at 11:03 PM..
Reply With Quote
6 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to GoFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
Avid Flyer (09-29-2015), Gazoo (09-29-2015), Lifelong Flyer Fan (09-29-2015), longtimefan (09-28-2015), San Diego Flyer (09-29-2015), TMPH66 (09-29-2015)
  #227  
Old 09-29-2015, 12:42 AM
ud2's Avatar
ud2 ud2 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,431
Thanks: 6,787
Thanked 6,125 Times in 4,170 Posts
ud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by FSUFlyer View Post
Considering the PD didn't find enough evidence to charge Pierre, the only thing I can conclude is that this CoC hearing believe Pierre's status as a basketball player "intimidated" the accuser into unwillingly having sex (Excerpt: Real or perceived power differentials between individuals may create an intentional or
unintentional atmosphere of coercion or manipulation.
). Except, what proof of there is that? From what I've read, the girl didn't even make that claim.
Originally Posted by UDTradition View Post
I am requesting our members who support UD's position on this issue to "speak out" in this forum. I am getting tired of hearing the same thing over and over again...so far...we all agree with almost everything that has been written on this forum (to date).

If you support UD's position...please speak out.
I'm clearly in the minority on this...I don't have any sisters/daughters, so I have no close understanding of the female point of view, however, FSUFlyer may have posted the rationale for the decision above.

Read the full incident report...he was considered hands-on/touchy/grabby by her friends, seems that he was not afraid to assert his presence with women, I think he could be considered to be too aggressive with women.

I don't know, maybe she was scared, has lower self-esteem, shy, etc. Afraid to leave/intimidated/manipulated maybe.

She locked herself in the bathroom...she avoided him on campus afterwards....she left school...she did not like him massaging her on the couch...he was kissing her on the couch, not the other way around...she sat on the corner of the bed, her body pointed away from him...he took her clothes off I think, she did not disrobe herself I think...he invited her to his place.

I'm seeing a pattern of pursuit by him not her.

Last edited by ud2; 09-29-2015 at 01:06 AM..
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to ud2 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Figgie123 (09-29-2015)
  #228  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:58 AM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I'm clearly in the minority on this...I don't have any sisters/daughters, so I have no close understanding of the female point of view, however, FSUFlyer may have posted the rationale for the decision above.

Read the full incident report...he was considered hands-on/touchy/grabby by her friends, seems that he was not afraid to assert his presence with women, I think he could be considered to be too aggressive with women.

I don't know, maybe she was scared, has lower self-esteem, shy, etc. Afraid to leave/intimidated/manipulated maybe.

She locked herself in the bathroom...she avoided him on campus afterwards....she left school...she did not like him massaging her on the couch...he was kissing her on the couch, not the other way around...she sat on the corner of the bed, her body pointed away from him...he took her clothes off I think, she did not disrobe herself I think...he invited her to his place.

I'm seeing a pattern of pursuit by him not her.
I hope you aren't only using her statements when discussing/considering this issue or that you are taking them as 100% truth. Pierre's statements refute pretty much everything she said.

She avoided him on campus? He says she hugged him at Tim's when they bumped into each other there after the alleged incident. They also texted after the alleged incident.

She left school because of him? He says she told him that night that she had already been considering a transfer due to playing time. She mentioned her boyfriend at Ohio State and that she didn't want Pierre telling anyone because she didn't want her boyfriend to find out.

He pursued her? Pierre was outside Tim's when it closed talking to a different girl when the accuser kept telling him to leave with her group and head back to their apartment. She had even slept over at Pierre's apartment prior to the night in question.

She turned her back to him? Isn't that what people do when they ask for a back massage?

He kissed her? They kissed each other.

She got on his bed? Yes, they both say this and neither one says there was any force required to get her on the bed. Per the report, she climbed on a chair and a desk to get into his bed since it was raised 4.5' off the floor.

He took her clothes off? She unbuttoned her pants and they both took off her "skirmy" [sic] jeans.

His roommate was up until roughly the same time the accuser returned to her own apartment. He claims to have heard no struggle that night and to have physically seen the accuser in the apartment in no apparent distress.

=====================

And after reading the police report, I don't think intimidation is a compelling argument. Through her own statement she had leeway to walk around the apartment getting water, going to the bathroom and to CLIMB in and out of bed on multiple occasions.

The police said there was insufficient evidence and the accuser refused to press charges. The school suspends him for an entire semester anyways. Title IX has unintentionally created kangaroo courts in our universities.

Last edited by FSUFlyer; 09-29-2015 at 05:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
4 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to FSUFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
Avid Flyer (09-29-2015), Bat'71 (09-29-2015), jack72 (09-29-2015), redbengal (09-29-2015)
  #229  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:07 AM
priceg75's Avatar
priceg75 priceg75 is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Miami Twp.
Posts: 3,342
Thanks: 268
Thanked 2,234 Times in 1,038 Posts
priceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond reputepriceg75 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
This girl wasn't raped. Rape is physically forcing yourself onto and into someone.

How can anyone support UD on this one? Suspend your best player for a whole semester over a bogus "rape" claim from some chick that doesn't even attend UD anymore? Get real dude.
Not necessarily. Rape also includes coercion into unwanted sexual contact. That's the standard being used here.

Whether or not she was kissing him and got into bed with him... if she did not want to have sex and feels like she was forced into it, she doesn't have to yell and scream to get out of it in order for it to be rape. And just because the girl didn't react the way you or your relatives would have to avoid a rape, doesn't mean it's not rape.

Just because no charges were pressed doesn't mean the incident didn't take place. Now, there being a rape assumes that you agree with her version of events.

Sadly, no one but the two of them will likely ever know what truly went on. Anyone who is taking his word as the gospel is falling into the same trap as those who are taking her word as truth. Just because he is a basketball player doesn't make his word bond.

I'm as disappointed as anyone that this happened, but really feel like the assumptions about how one should react in and after a sexual assault need to stop.

Truthfully, Pierre should probably be suspended for serving those not of legal age alcohol in his apartment. That alone should be enough for some amount of suspension.

I get his side if nothing happened. And maybe nothing did. But everyone needs to quit acting like they know. You don't know. And in the absence of pure, knowable truth, the university is erring on the side of caution, which frankly I can't fault them for.
Reply With Quote
6 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to priceg75 For This Totally Excellent Post:
AC91 (09-29-2015), anthonycharles (09-29-2015), Brad S. (09-29-2015), Figgie123 (09-29-2015), Gazoo (09-29-2015), ud2 (09-29-2015)
  #230  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:29 AM
Avid Flyer's Avatar
Avid Flyer Avid Flyer is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
Avid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
I have no idea where UD2 is coming up with his interpretation of events of that night other than taking her account of events as fact and totally ignoring DP's comments. Thank goodness the district attorney did not have the same view as UD2.

She took a shower, washed her clothes and erased all texts to and from DP, in other words she destroyed all evidence that could support her story, then expects to believed.

On the statement of the females that DP is aggressive and touchy feely; two things come to mind. First they are piling on to strengthen their view of him. But it is the second thought that I want to ask them. If they knew DP to be aggressive and touchy feely why in the world would you go to the mans apartment, have drinks, go to Tim's and return to this apartment again after consuming more alcohol. One does not go into a lions den knowing the lion is in there.

This girl had multiple chances to leave the scene (his apartment) but chose instead to return to his room after multiple trips to the bathroom or exiting his bedroom.

She may claim after the fact she was trying to get away from him but even by her own account she kept returning to the bed room and did not leave the apartment. This looks more like a girl who left the bedroom multiple times to check out the territory to see if her friends were there to see her follow through on the quest both seemed to be on.

No doubt she was struggling with what lay in front of her. Hormones raging, a need but in the back of the head thoughts about getting caught and her bf finding out.

It is normal to have regrettable feelings after an encounter when you knew better not to go through with it as it would be cheating on her bf.

I did not read anywhere where she said she was forced into anything, and stated she did not consider herself being raped. She did say she felt the encounter was inappropriate. Duh!

Isn't it funny how when a woman has a drink (just one mind you) she can not give consent, but not for a man.

Again I encourage any female that has been forced into any situation to seek out a friend for support immediately after the incident and report it to the authorities, save all evidence, go to the hospital for an exam and do not destroy any evidence, on person, on clothing, or cell phones etc.

There are obvious reasons why a female may not want to report an incident right after but seeking out a friend to help through the necessary procedures is foremost to preserve any and all evidence. Situations as in DP's case just has too many holes in it to be believed, that is why no charges were brought against DP, and these type accusations lacking fact to support it casts doubt by others and may keep a truly assaulted individual from coming forward.

Last edited by Avid Flyer; 09-29-2015 at 08:31 AM..
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Avid Flyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
shocka43 (09-29-2015)
  #231  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:34 AM
Pikaar Modeling Agency Pikaar Modeling Agency is offline
1st Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Eastern Estados Unidos
Posts: 172
Thanks: 40
Thanked 161 Times in 62 Posts
Pikaar Modeling Agency is a glorious beacon of lightPikaar Modeling Agency is a glorious beacon of lightPikaar Modeling Agency is a glorious beacon of lightPikaar Modeling Agency is a glorious beacon of lightPikaar Modeling Agency is a glorious beacon of lightPikaar Modeling Agency is a glorious beacon of light
So many hot takes in these Pierre threads.
Reply With Quote
  #232  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:06 AM
Avid Flyer's Avatar
Avid Flyer Avid Flyer is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
Avid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Pikaar Modeling Agency View Post
So many hot takes in these Pierre threads.
Some have the actual police reports in hand and others have the rumor mill to rely on.
Reply With Quote
  #233  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:19 AM
Figgie123's Avatar
Figgie123 Figgie123 is offline
I Am A Statistical God
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Riverside, Ohio
Posts: 5,503
Thanks: 4,687
Thanked 6,152 Times in 2,316 Posts
Figgie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond repute
There is a lot going on in this thread.

Criminally, nothing is happening to Pierre. UDPD gave reports (though, I haven't seen the "other media" file...) to the DA, and he declined to press charges. Therefore, criminal rape is out of the question. But, I agree with priceg75 above in refuting the comment from hawkooo that rape is "physically forcing yourself onto and into someone".

On to the University. He has violated the code of conduct. That is the extent of what we know. Unless Pierre discusses it, we don't know what part of the code of conduct he violated. There are a few items that could have occurred.

So, now regarding the statements of the two individuals which is what is currently blowing up the board...

The victim/accuser in this situation was talked to within 2 weeks of the incident. Pierre's statement wasn't given to the police until he got an attorney (probably wise choice), and not for another 3 weeks (5/29). Not only that, his response was AFTER he and his attorney got the complaint from the University, and reviewed it. In my mind, any response from Pierre at that time has the ability to contradict anything in the accuser's complaint. (Not that he did, but it is possible.) If Pierre was brought in on 5/5, as the accuser was, and wasn't afforded the ability to view the complaint, who knows what might have been said.

For me, I put more weight on the accuser's story, because she talked to the police without hearing the other side of the story. Pierre's story adds some content and details, but may be purposely contradicting.

It's also not a "10-game suspension". He was suspended from THE University of Dayton, as a STUDENT, therefore, he cannot play sports during that time. It just so happens, 10 regular season games occur during that time.

(putting on the bullet-proof armor....)

Last edited by Figgie123; 09-29-2015 at 09:25 AM.. Reason: wasn't finished
Reply With Quote
4 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Figgie123 For This Totally Excellent Post:
anthonycharles (09-29-2015), flyerfanatic86 (09-29-2015), rollo (09-29-2015), ud2 (09-29-2015)
  #234  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:21 AM
cj cj is online now
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,001
Thanks: 3,691
Thanked 5,152 Times in 2,713 Posts
cj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond repute
Again I encourage any female that has been forced into any situation to seek out a friend for support immediately after the incident and report it to the authorities, save all evidence, go to the hospital for an exam and do not destroy any evidence, on person, on clothing, or cell phones etc.

There are obvious reasons why a female may not want to report an incident right after but seeking out a friend to help through the necessary procedures is foremost to preserve any and all evidence. Situations as in DP's case just has too many holes in it to be believed, that is why no charges were brought against DP, and these type accusations lacking fact to support it casts doubt by others and may keep a truly assaulted individual from coming forward.
We are getting to the point where every man that has an encounter should save evidence/record the event to protect themselves or to be able to charge the woman with rape.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to cj For This Totally Excellent Post:
Avid Flyer (09-29-2015)
  #235  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:23 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Isn't it funny how when a woman has a drink (just one mind you) she can not give consent, but not for a man.
If 2 drunks get into a car and get pulled over, only the driver gets the DUI.

As it relates to the student code of conduct and 'consent', the male is always behind the wheel and the female is always the passenger.

And everyone on campus knows it!
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #236  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:30 AM
San Diego Flyer's Avatar
San Diego Flyer San Diego Flyer is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 14,788
Thanks: 10,086
Thanked 10,502 Times in 4,704 Posts
San Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeSan Diego Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
Thumbs up Eloquent.

Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
"I am requesting our members who support UD's position on this issue to "speak out" in this forum. I am getting tired of hearing the same thing over and over again...so far...we all agree with almost everything that has been written on this forum (to date). "


I have been very outspoken in the past about the integrity of the administration and my personal belief in them. That is why the current situation has me so upset.

I just cannot support them on this. The punishment does not fit the offense, the process was flawed, the time delay was inexcusable, and a young man has been greatly damaged. I am not against holding students accountable, but automatically deeming alcohol and sex as co-conditions that negate the possibility of consent is just ludicrous and extreme. About as extreme and unrealistic a position on sex as "just say no". And then to put that black and white policy in the hands of students with no ability to weigh circumstance, legal liability and entrapment is just the biggest abdication of responsibility I can imagine. Hiding behind the students! Absolutely amazing.
There is NOTHING that can make me support the administration on this one.
I've tried, but I just can't summarize it in my own mind better than this.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to San Diego Flyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
Avid Flyer (09-29-2015)
  #237  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:40 AM
Avid Flyer's Avatar
Avid Flyer Avid Flyer is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
Avid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
If 2 drunks get into a car and get pulled over, only the driver gets the DUI.

As it relates to the student code of conduct and 'consent', the male is always behind the wheel and the female is always the passenger.

And everyone on campus knows it!
Correct if 2 drunks get into a car and pulled over, only the driver gets the DUI since there is only one driver, however rest assured if any passenger exhibiting drunken behavior they will also be cited and taken in with the driver, so your analysys is a little flawed.

As in the student code of conduct he is always presumed to be behind the wheel (flawed logic) but she too could be the drunken passenger, just not the driver.

And everyone on campus knows it> yet it is still violated continuously, only when one files a complaint does it come into play.
Reply With Quote
  #238  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:43 AM
Avid Flyer's Avatar
Avid Flyer Avid Flyer is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
Avid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
Actually Figgie123 I have yet to see the U use the word suspension, only that he was not presently enrolled in classes, not a student, and not a part of the team.

Seems to be a gray area as to why he is not enrolled, did he voluntarily withdraw, or was he actually given a suspension. Fact that he may return for the Dec 22 game against Miami, O suggests it is a 10 game suspension but clear on who made the ruling.
Reply With Quote
  #239  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:44 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by cj View Post
We are getting to the point where every man that has an encounter should save evidence/record the event to protect themselves or to be able to charge the woman with rape.
Actually, what needs to happen is dating needs to be completely reversed.

Instead of eye contact, innocent flirting, flattering small-talk, drinking, dancing and some earth shattering and non-consensual relations , we need to just hop in bed first and get it over with.

Of course, if we did it this way, there'd be no need for eye contact, innocent flirting, etc...

Not that there's anything wrong with that...
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #240  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:54 AM
Figgie123's Avatar
Figgie123 Figgie123 is offline
I Am A Statistical God
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Riverside, Ohio
Posts: 5,503
Thanks: 4,687
Thanked 6,152 Times in 2,316 Posts
Figgie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Actually Figgie123 I have yet to see the U use the word suspension, only that he was not presently enrolled in classes, not a student, and not a part of the team.

Seems to be a gray area as to why he is not enrolled, did he voluntarily withdraw, or was he actually given a suspension. Fact that he may return for the Dec 22 game against Miami, O suggests it is a 10 game suspension but clear on who made the ruling.
Avid, thanks for that. I went back to read the (brief) statements that were on Jablonski's twitter account, and as you state, it just says he isn't enrolled. (It was ESPN that stated he was suspended. "has been suspended by the school for the fall semester, a source close to the situation told ESPN.")

In that statement as well, the SID stated that "This is a university matter", so it seems to me that if it is a suspension (no facts laid out), it was at the university level (semester) and not at the athletics level (10 games).

But, as you state, it is a gray area, and one that will remain there due to Student Privacy laws.

Last edited by Figgie123; 09-29-2015 at 09:56 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #241  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:55 AM
UDTradition UDTradition is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NJ
Posts: 625
Thanks: 759
Thanked 407 Times in 203 Posts
UDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant future
There has to be compelling facts that have not been shared with this forum or the public because the University's decision appears preposterous. The administration must have predicted that there would be significant discontent.

What can people do to support DP?

I have an idea...when UD does their phone beg-a-thon, I will respectfully decline; stating my reason and requesting that my decision (of not donating...including my corporate employer's co-pay donation) is based upon the administration's inexplicible decisions on this matter.
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:03 AM
ud2's Avatar
ud2 ud2 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 22,431
Thanks: 6,787
Thanked 6,125 Times in 4,170 Posts
ud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond reputeud2 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
I have no idea where UD2 is coming up with his interpretation of events of that night other than taking her account of events as fact and totally ignoring DP's comments. Thank goodness the district attorney did not have the same view as UD2.

She took a shower, washed her clothes and erased all texts to and from DP, in other words she destroyed all evidence that could support her story, then expects to believed.

On the statement of the females that DP is aggressive and touchy feely; two things come to mind. First they are piling on to strengthen their view of him. But it is the second thought that I want to ask them. If they knew DP to be aggressive and touchy feely why in the world would you go to the mans apartment, have drinks, go to Tim's and return to this apartment again after consuming more alcohol. One does not go into a lions den knowing the lion is in there.

This girl had multiple chances to leave the scene (his apartment) but chose instead to return to his room after multiple trips to the bathroom or exiting his bedroom.

She may claim after the fact she was trying to get away from him but even by her own account she kept returning to the bed room and did not leave the apartment. This looks more like a girl who left the bedroom multiple times to check out the territory to see if her friends were there to see her follow through on the quest both seemed to be on.

No doubt she was struggling with what lay in front of her. Hormones raging, a need but in the back of the head thoughts about getting caught and her bf finding out.

It is normal to have regrettable feelings after an encounter when you knew better not to go through with it as it would be cheating on her bf.

I did not read anywhere where she said she was forced into anything, and stated she did not consider herself being raped. She did say she felt the encounter was inappropriate. Duh!

Isn't it funny how when a woman has a drink (just one mind you) she can not give consent, but not for a man.

Again I encourage any female that has been forced into any situation to seek out a friend for support immediately after the incident and report it to the authorities, save all evidence, go to the hospital for an exam and do not destroy any evidence, on person, on clothing, or cell phones etc.

There are obvious reasons why a female may not want to report an incident right after but seeking out a friend to help through the necessary procedures is foremost to preserve any and all evidence. Situations as in DP's case just has too many holes in it to be believed, that is why no charges were brought against DP, and these type accusations lacking fact to support it casts doubt by others and may keep a truly assaulted individual from coming forward.
I am betting that if she did not live in the same building as him, then this might not have happened, she could have just left with her friends when they left, they were concerned about her being alone with him, they kept checking on her when she was on the couch with him, they also reported this incident, the victim did not report the incident.

She may have taken a shower afterwards/deleted the texts in order to put the whole thing behind her...taking a shower specifically seems normal to me, she probably felt "dirty" and wanted to wash away the entire incident.

She was not strong enough to immediately go to the police.

Talking to him/texting him afterwards: she just wanted the whole thing to go away, and she did not want to confront him. Confrontation is hard for anyone, it is hard to confront anyone in life, oftentimes, confronting someone can lead to a fight/things getting ugly. Especially hard to confront the big man on campus.

She went out of her way to avoid him after the incident.

Throughout her version of the incident report, I am just seeing a consistent picture of someone with lower self-esteem/shy who was afraid/intimidated/manipulated.

Of course, this is all supposition, I have no idea what actually happened, or who is telling the truth.

The two statements to police though are very, very different. Her version of events is completely different than his.

She has only had maybe 1? boyfriend her entire life, she has been with her boyfriend for 5 years since she was 16 years old, she is now 21, doesn't seem like she plays the field, seems like she is loyal to her boyfriend.

The alcohol may be playing a role as well, she said that she was drunk I think, she may have felt undue guilt about being drunk/felt like the whole thing was her fault since she was drunk.

Last edited by ud2; 09-29-2015 at 10:23 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:22 AM
flyerfanatic86's Avatar
flyerfanatic86 flyerfanatic86 is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,946
Thanks: 4,452
Thanked 1,414 Times in 671 Posts
flyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond repute
I don't understand the anger towards the school. There was an allegation, which led to an investigation. Everybody can agree investigating it was appropriate.

The investigation was presented to the disciplinary panel, as is university policy. There, a group of Pierre's peers listened to the evidence and testimony and made a decision as to whether he violated a university rule, as is university policy. I haven't seen any evidence that he was denied an appeal of that decision, or anything that would go against university policy. If he was denied an appeal, then that is certainly wrong and I'm sure his lawyer will make a strong case.

The school can't just unilaterally look at a decision made by the "jury" here and throw it out because they disagree. That's when Title IX would really kick in and nail UD to the wall. And I'm sure there would be more than a few students who have had business before similar panels that would be upset if Pierre received special treatment. A lot of people are calling it a "kangaroo court" because, well, I guess because they disagree with the outcome. But if that's the procedure UD has created for handling university violations, that's the procedure they have to follow for each case. You can't change it for a basketball player because the Iowa game is important for our tournament chances.

It's hard to be upset at a panel of students who were presented all of the evidence. I can see being upset at the university rule he was found to have broken, perhaps. But the fact of the matter is that the school seemed to act as it should have every step of the way. This isn't a criminal trial, he won't go to prison. And he isn't going to be denied access to the university forever. He is facing a one semester suspension, just like peers that violate other university rules requiring a suspension, and he is facing it because he went through the same process other students do when facing an allegation.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to flyerfanatic86 For This Totally Excellent Post:
anthonycharles (09-29-2015), rollo (09-29-2015)
  #244  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:33 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Before exploding about lack of evidence and the R-word, please admit that Pierre confessed to breaking at least 2 Code of Conduct stipulations. You don't need DNA if you have a confession...and witnesses.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:33 AM
bhflyer5's Avatar
bhflyer5 bhflyer5 is offline
1st Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 184
Thanks: 238
Thanked 138 Times in 77 Posts
bhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to behold
I'm going to say this knowing that it's going to be completely crude so I apologize ahead of time...

Somewhat serious here...for those of us who know who the girl is, there's no way he could pull the jeans/pants off this girl so quickly that she couldn't stop him. Sorry to be an @$$hole but seriously...
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:34 AM
bhflyer5's Avatar
bhflyer5 bhflyer5 is offline
1st Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 184
Thanks: 238
Thanked 138 Times in 77 Posts
bhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to beholdbhflyer5 is a splendid one to behold
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Before exploding about lack of evidence and the R-word, please admit that Pierre confessed to breaking at least 2 Code of Conduct stipulations. You don't need DNA if you have a confession...and witnesses.
But is breaking the student code of conduct/the rules that he broke worthy of an entire semester's suspension? I don't know- I couldn't find the rules that you posted a while back.
Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:38 AM
31770's Avatar
31770 31770 is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 445
Thanks: 348
Thanked 158 Times in 83 Posts
31770 is a jewel in the rough31770 is a jewel in the rough31770 is a jewel in the rough
Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Actually Figgie123 I have yet to see the U use the word suspension, only that he was not presently enrolled in classes, not a student, and not a part of the team.

Seems to be a gray area as to why he is not enrolled, did he voluntarily withdraw, or was he actually given a suspension. Fact that he may return for the Dec 22 game against Miami, O suggests it is a 10 game suspension but clear on who made the ruling.
correct....
“Dyshawn Pierre is not enrolled at the University for the fall semester. Therefore, he will not play on the basketball team during this time. The University cannot discuss individual student matters because of federal privacy laws.” -Bill Fischer, vice president for student development

However, DP's lawyer released a statement saying "[...] the University of Dayton subjected Dyshawn to fundamentally defective and unfair university disciplinary procedures orchestrated to appease a broken Department of Education policy. We will be challenging the university’s handling of this matter in the near future."
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:38 AM
number21's Avatar
number21 number21 is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Vandalia-home of the mighty Aviators
Posts: 574
Thanks: 153
Thanked 653 Times in 201 Posts
number21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant futurenumber21 has a brilliant future
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
It takes a lot to get me fired up, and this is no exception!
In memory of Yogi?
Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:49 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by bhflyer5 View Post
But is breaking the student code of conduct/the rules that he broke worthy of an entire semester's suspension? I don't know- I couldn't find the rules that you posted a while back.
I know of 2 instances where non-basketball players were brought up for the same CoC violations and were kicked out of UD permanently by the Hearing Board.

So an argument could be made that UD took it easy on him due to his status as a bball player.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:59 AM
TommyGola's Avatar
TommyGola TommyGola is offline
General
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,924
Thanks: 1,602
Thanked 2,810 Times in 1,546 Posts
TommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond reputeTommyGola has a reputation beyond repute
The problem is this: Why is it that "allegations" automatically lead to penalties when in fact there is no "due process" for addressing the allegations? Curious minds are seeking answers!
Reply With Quote
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to TommyGola For This Totally Excellent Post:
Avid Flyer (09-29-2015), TMPH66 (09-29-2015), UDDude (09-29-2015)
  #251  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:00 AM
cj cj is online now
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,001
Thanks: 3,691
Thanked 5,152 Times in 2,713 Posts
cj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond reputecj has a reputation beyond repute
My biggest complaint with the U is why did it take so long to come to this decision. The decision came 5 months after the fact. I know, classes were over....... Still no excuse.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to cj For This Totally Excellent Post:
GoFlyer (09-29-2015)
  #252  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:01 AM
flyerfanatic86's Avatar
flyerfanatic86 flyerfanatic86 is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,946
Thanks: 4,452
Thanked 1,414 Times in 671 Posts
flyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond reputeflyerfanatic86 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
The problem is this: Why is it that "allegations" automatically lead to penalties when in fact there is no "due process" for addressing the allegations? Curious minds are seeking answers!
There is due process. There was an investigation and a hearing, and presumably an ability to appeal the decision of that hearing. That's the due process. It's different from the court system because it's not in the actual court system, but he wasn't suspended automatically upon the allegation.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to flyerfanatic86 For This Totally Excellent Post:
rollo (09-29-2015)
  #253  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:05 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by TommyGola View Post
The problem is this: Why is it that "allegations" automatically lead to penalties
Allegations?? Read the f'in report...HE CONFESSED to breaking the CoC. On paper, this was a no-brainer for any decision maker.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:07 AM
Bat'71 Bat'71 is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Naples, Florida
Posts: 3,221
Thanks: 2,629
Thanked 2,248 Times in 1,129 Posts
Bat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond reputeBat'71 has a reputation beyond repute
Call me crazy, but somehow I don't think any of this would have occurred if the female student's girl friends didn't force the whole issue into the public arena.This whole episode seems to be driven by the viscerally negative response of the female student's girl friends to the "hook-up". Despite her friends feeling that DP was too aggressive with female companions after he's had a few drinks, they obviously didn't feel too concerned the night of the "hook-up" since they left her alone with DP. They were the ones who subsequently brought the issue up with the coaches even after the girl who was actually involved in all this did not think it was rape.

It appears that the girl involved may have had regrets over what transpired that night, talked to her friends about it and they convinced her it really wasn't her fault...she must have been coerced. Having had experiences where I regretted my actions the following day, it's somewhat comforting to think that, upon reflection, it really wasn't my fault after all (even if, in reality, it was.) IMHO, Flyer2 hit the nail on the head when he noted that after the girl friends went to the coaches, the girl involved had no real choice but to pursue the claim. Just an unfortunate situation all around made worse by meddling "friends" who may or may not have had a dislike of DP to begin with. DP is now, for all intent and purposes, "suspended", AM and his staff disgruntled over how the whole affair was handled and the girl is back home where even her family and friends probably know she was the one involved in this affair. No one, IMHO, came out of this process the better for it.

Last edited by Bat'71; 09-29-2015 at 11:12 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:12 AM
Gazoo's Avatar
Gazoo Gazoo is offline
General
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 6,566
Thanks: 5,146
Thanked 5,434 Times in 2,374 Posts
Gazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
The victim/accuser in this situation was talked to within 2 weeks of the incident. Pierre's statement wasn't given to the police until he got an attorney (probably wise choice), and not for another 3 weeks (5/29). Not only that, his response was AFTER he and his attorney got the complaint from the University, and reviewed it. In my mind, any response from Pierre at that time has the ability to contradict anything in the accuser's complaint. (Not that he did, but it is possible.) If Pierre was brought in on 5/5, as the accuser was, and wasn't afforded the ability to view the complaint, who knows what might have been said.
Do we know that? Can someone confirm that the SOP is to take the accuser's report and hand it to the attorney / accused and tell them, "here you go, defend yourself."

What kind of keystone cops would do that??

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
If 2 drunks get into a car and get pulled over, only the driver gets the DUI.

As it relates to the student code of conduct and 'consent', the male is always behind the wheel and the female is always the passenger.

And everyone on campus knows it!
Women's lib slogan: "All the rights of a man with none of the responsibility!" Looks like Mr. / Ms. Jenner is on to something.

And again, UD's administration is responsible for that, and I blame them for this whole keystone cops debacle.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:13 AM
N2663R N2663R is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 2,319
Thanks: 4
Thanked 1,489 Times in 764 Posts
N2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
I just cannot support them on this. The punishment does not fit the offense, the process was flawed, the time delay was inexcusable, and a young man has been greatly damaged. I am not against holding students accountable, but automatically deeming alcohol and sex as co-conditions that negate the possibility of consent is just ludicrous and extreme. About as extreme and unrealistic a position on sex as "just say no". And then to put that black and white policy in the hands of students with no ability to weigh circumstance, legal liability and entrapment is just the biggest abdication of responsibility I can imagine. Hiding behind the students! Absolutely amazing.
There is NOTHING that can make me support the administration on this one.
I agree with your sentiments, but I am sure that the polices and procedures that are in place are totally within compliance and are designed to insulate universities from unpopular decisions. In UD's case, the policy states:

"The UHB consists of 3 to 5 trained community members and has a majority of student members in each hearing."

This is vague in that I don't know if the board consists of only the 3-5 community members and the majority of the members in the room for the hearing are students, or does the actual board contain a majority of student members in addition to the 3-5 community members.

Either way, I'm sure UD did its best to follow its procedures to the letter, so the board is who we have a gripe with.

Any way to find out who the 3-5 trained community members are? Rollo? Blackburn?
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:14 AM
GoFlyer's Avatar
GoFlyer GoFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Centerville
Posts: 346
Thanks: 1,429
Thanked 644 Times in 187 Posts
GoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond reputeGoFlyer has a reputation beyond repute
A code of conduct that says there is no possibility of consensual sex if alcohol has been consumed is ludicrous. And what is the punishment for the female ? Is there any precedence where a female has been punished?

The CoC is flawed. The process is flawed. and the way the process was implemented in this case is flawed. Nothng to base a decision on except an extreme CoC, no evidence, and she said/he said, always weighted toward the male as the perpetrator.
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:34 AM
Figgie123's Avatar
Figgie123 Figgie123 is offline
I Am A Statistical God
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Riverside, Ohio
Posts: 5,503
Thanks: 4,687
Thanked 6,152 Times in 2,316 Posts
Figgie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond reputeFiggie123 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Do we know that? Can someone confirm that the SOP is to take the accuser's report and hand it to the attorney / accused and tell them, "here you go, defend yourself."

What kind of keystone cops would do that??
From the report, "[Pierre's attorney] advised me that he would send me a copy of the paperwork his client had received from the university."

From the attorney's email to the detective, "Attached is the complaint that we discussed earlier..."

What was on that paperwork is certainly in question. It could have been, "Dyshawn, you've been a bad boy. Show up to review hearing on XXX date." Or, it could have been, "Attorney, here is the full police department complaint as we know it at this time."
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Figgie123 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Gazoo (09-29-2015)
  #259  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:41 AM
N2663R N2663R is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 2,319
Thanks: 4
Thanked 1,489 Times in 764 Posts
N2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
A code of conduct that says there is no possibility of consensual sex if alcohol has been consumed is ludicrous. And what is the punishment for the female ? Is there any precedence where a female has been punished?

The CoC is flawed. The process is flawed. and the way the process was implemented in this case is flawed. Nothng to base a decision on except an extreme CoC, no evidence, and she said/he said, always weighted toward the male as the perpetrator.
All of your observations may or may not be true, and in the long run DP and Peter Ginsberg may be able to vindicate DP and possibly force UD's policies to change. But in the short term (and only from a sports perspective) there is very little time to figure out a way in which DP can play from the start of the season, which is what most on this board want. I think Peter Ginsberg is the right guy to make that happen if at all possible. Hopefully in the long run justice is served for those involved in this case and all students that attend UD.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:42 AM
Angry John Angry John is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 301
Thanks: 105
Thanked 287 Times in 110 Posts
Angry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud of
The C of C is terribly flawed, too Victorian, too black and white, does not allow lenience for cooperation and maybe unconstitutional. Dan Curran has failed in his leadership so far to correct a flawed system.
Reply With Quote
  #261  
Old 09-29-2015, 11:43 AM
Gazoo's Avatar
Gazoo Gazoo is offline
General
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 6,566
Thanks: 5,146
Thanked 5,434 Times in 2,374 Posts
Gazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
From the report, "[Pierre's attorney] advised me that he would send me a copy of the paperwork his client had received from the university."

From the attorney's email to the detective, "Attached is the complaint that we discussed earlier..."

What was on that paperwork is certainly in question. It could have been, "Dyshawn, you've been a bad boy. Show up to review hearing on XXX date." Or, it could have been, "Attorney, here is the full police department complaint as we know it at this time."
Right--think about it from the perspective of an actual, non-keystone detective who really thinks it's his / her job to find the truth. What would you do? You would ask DP to come in and ask if anything unusual happened on the night of x/yy because he's been accused of sexual misconduct. You wouldn't give him every detail in advance and tell him to refute it point by point!!

Is this somehow required by university policy or the law??

Imagine if DP really was / is a predator. The cops just gave away the element of surprise entirely! That makes it look like they're trying to protect a high profile basketball player.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Gazoo For This Totally Excellent Post:
Figgie123 (09-29-2015), superfan99 (09-29-2015)
  #262  
Old 09-29-2015, 12:29 PM
superfan99 superfan99 is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 607
Thanks: 1,066
Thanked 577 Times in 257 Posts
superfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by GoFlyer View Post
A code of conduct that says there is no possibility of consensual sex if alcohol has been consumed is ludicrous. And what is the punishment for the female ? Is there any precedence where a female has been punished?

The CoC is flawed. The process is flawed. and the way the process was implemented in this case is flawed. Nothng to base a decision on except an extreme CoC, no evidence, and she said/he said, always weighted toward the male as the perpetrator.
Where can we find the code of conduct? I'm trying to figure out how I made it through school without ever even hearing of a code of conduct, let alone reading one.
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old 09-29-2015, 12:44 PM
N2663R N2663R is offline
Brigadier General
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 2,319
Thanks: 4
Thanked 1,489 Times in 764 Posts
N2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond reputeN2663R has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Where can we find the code of conduct? I'm trying to figure out how I made it through school without ever even hearing of a code of conduct, let alone reading one.
Read my post #213


When I went to UD in the 70's the code was simple: "Don't do anything stupid, stupid!"
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Old 09-29-2015, 12:49 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Where can we find the code of conduct? I'm trying to figure out how I made it through school without ever even hearing of a code of conduct, let alone reading one.
https://www.udayton.edu/studev/dean/...ookPDF2014.pdf
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to rollo For This Totally Excellent Post:
superfan99 (09-29-2015)
  #265  
Old 09-29-2015, 02:17 PM
Gazoo's Avatar
Gazoo Gazoo is offline
General
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 6,566
Thanks: 5,146
Thanked 5,434 Times in 2,374 Posts
Gazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond reputeGazoo has a reputation beyond repute
Can someone . . . anyone. . . tell me how to justify suspension from the university for this?

This is much like speeding. If you're going 40 in a 35, and the cops want to pull you over, they'll cite you for speeding. If you're going 34 in a 35 while everyone else is going 40 you're "driving suspiciously".
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 09-29-2015, 02:25 PM
CE80 CE80 is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,778
Thanks: 5,498
Thanked 6,255 Times in 3,097 Posts
CE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond reputeCE80 has a reputation beyond repute
How often is a student from UD "no longer enrolled" because of a code of conduct breech, whether an athlete or not? Does this happened many times each year to "regular" students but we just don't hear about it or is DP's case the exception?
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old 09-29-2015, 02:40 PM
Buster Goode Buster Goode is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Fernando Valley, CA
Posts: 3,285
Thanks: 1,215
Thanked 2,164 Times in 1,008 Posts
Buster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond repute
The CoC is ridiculous and from a reality perspective, it's downright laughable. Based on it, I should have been shown the door from UD the day after the first night freshman year.
Reply With Quote
4 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Buster Goode For This Totally Excellent Post:
Atlantic 10 (09-29-2015), cj (09-29-2015), jack72 (09-29-2015), superfan99 (09-30-2015)
  #268  
Old 09-29-2015, 03:50 PM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
Originally Posted by Figgie123 View Post
There is a lot going on in this thread.

Criminally, nothing is happening to Pierre. UDPD gave reports (though, I haven't seen the "other media" file...) to the DA, and he declined to press charges. Therefore, criminal rape is out of the question. But, I agree with priceg75 above in refuting the comment from hawkooo that rape is "physically forcing yourself onto and into someone".

On to the University. He has violated the code of conduct. That is the extent of what we know. Unless Pierre discusses it, we don't know what part of the code of conduct he violated. There are a few items that could have occurred.

So, now regarding the statements of the two individuals which is what is currently blowing up the board...

The victim/accuser in this situation was talked to within 2 weeks of the incident. Pierre's statement wasn't given to the police until he got an attorney (probably wise choice), and not for another 3 weeks (5/29). Not only that, his response was AFTER he and his attorney got the complaint from the University, and reviewed it. In my mind, any response from Pierre at that time has the ability to contradict anything in the accuser's complaint. (Not that he did, but it is possible.) If Pierre was brought in on 5/5, as the accuser was, and wasn't afforded the ability to view the complaint, who knows what might have been said.

For me, I put more weight on the accuser's story, because she talked to the police without hearing the other side of the story. Pierre's story adds some content and details, but may be purposely contradicting.

It's also not a "10-game suspension". He was suspended from THE University of Dayton, as a STUDENT, therefore, he cannot play sports during that time. It just so happens, 10 regular season games occur during that time.

(putting on the bullet-proof armor....)
I don't think that's fair. The ACCUSER is always going to get their side of the story in first since they are the ones' making the accusation. How many innocent people are accused of crimes on a daily basis? And in particular, false rape allegations are a legitimate issue.

You're saying the accuser should always be trusted more? Absolutely not.

Pierre having seen the report before talking to police does make one wonder about his statement. But the girl also talked to people for weeks getting her story together before going to the police.

She specifically states Pierre's roommate wasn't home, yet Pierre's roommate told police he was. So, unless you want to say the roommate is also less believable and/or lying, there's already proof that part of her story is inaccurate.

Last edited by FSUFlyer; 09-29-2015 at 03:54 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old 09-29-2015, 03:53 PM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
Originally Posted by UDTradition View Post
There has to be compelling facts that have not been shared with this forum or the public because the University's decision appears preposterous. The administration must have predicted that there would be significant discontent.
If these facts existed, the university would be compelled to present them to the police. And yet...no charges.
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:01 PM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
I know of 2 instances where non-basketball players were brought up for the same CoC violations and were kicked out of UD permanently by the Hearing Board.

So an argument could be made that UD took it easy on him due to his status as a bball player.
Which specific violations?

Last edited by FSUFlyer; 09-29-2015 at 04:05 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:12 PM
TA111 TA111 is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,072
Thanks: 3,440
Thanked 4,693 Times in 2,511 Posts
TA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond reputeTA111 has a reputation beyond repute
Expect to hear the terms "fundamental unfairness" and "vagueness" tossed around by Ginsburg with respect to due process violations. Many of these cases are fought on the grounds that the policies are so vague that they can't possibly be enforced in a fair manner. As to the "consent" issue there are many grounds to attack. What exactly is "incapacitation"?
How much alcohol needs to be consumed to determine whether one is incapable of giving consent? I could go on, but you get the point.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to TA111 For This Totally Excellent Post:
San Diego Flyer (09-29-2015)
  #272  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:21 PM
Avid Flyer's Avatar
Avid Flyer Avid Flyer is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
Avid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by TA111 View Post
Expect to hear the terms "fundamental unfairness" and "vagueness" tossed around by Ginsburg with respect to due process violations. Many of these cases are fought on the grounds that the policies are so vague that they can't possibly be enforced in a fair manner. As to the "consent" issue there are many grounds to attack. What exactly is "incapacitation"?
How much alcohol needs to be consumed to determine whether one is incapable of giving consent? I could go on, but you get the point.
Apparently she had more than one drink, then went to Tims where more alcohol was consumed.....but there seems to be along timeline between Tims and alleged event. And she was able to think things through enough to leave the room not once but several times, yet on each exit she returns. So how long does one stay intoxicated to the point they cannot give concent.

As I understand it they did not come back to his room and jump in the sack. Hours went by before they took the plunge.

Yes DP had her report to read to answer, but she had two weeks to talk to friends to get her story straight.

And Rollo, sorry he did not CONFESS. If he was asked specifically if he broke the code of conduct and said yes then he would have confessed. He merely replied to her allegations which someone nick picking through every word and has an agenda would see it as a confession.

And BTW if he confessed then so did she, but only one is getting punished.

Good news it will be coming to a head here real soon, good bad or indifferent. Not going to be a win win situation.

Last edited by Avid Flyer; 09-29-2015 at 04:24 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:23 PM
Smitty10's Avatar
Smitty10 Smitty10 is offline
General
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,642
Thanks: 1,559
Thanked 4,578 Times in 2,405 Posts
Smitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond reputeSmitty10 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Do we know that? Can someone confirm that the SOP is to take the accuser's report and hand it to the attorney / accused and tell them, "here you go, defend yourself."

What kind of keystone cops would do that??
I would think it's standard to let the accused know exactly what he's being accused of down to the specifics. Here's why. Let's pretend he wasn't.
************************************************** *

Can you tell us what you did the night of 4/23?
Yes, I ate, went to the bathroom, and went out.

Can you get more detailed?
Like how?

Were you with any women that night?
Yes.

Can you tell us who?
There were a lot of women I talked to that night.

Where did you talk to them?
at home and when I went out.

Did you have sexual relations with any woman that night?
no.

Did you have sexual relations with any woman early in the morning?
Yes.

Was it consensual?
Yes.

Who was the woman?
Now you're getting personal, why are you asking me these questions?

Because the woman has made an accusation about you?
What kind of accusation?

That you had non-consensual sex with here.
The sex was consensual.

Will you tell us step by step how you got to the point of consensual sex?
She and I went clubbing, we came home and we kissed, hugged and one thing led to another and we had sex.

************************************************** *******

The above shows that a smart person answers no questions without knowing why the question is being asked. You can't get the answers any other way. And even if they got more detailed with their questions on the night it happened or after getting her report a smart person would have their lawyer in there with him and he would make sure every question related to any allegation was exposed before allowing his client to answer it. This is the only way to get his side of the story without taking a year asking questions and responding to questions from the accused prior to his answering anything.

Last edited by Smitty10; 09-29-2015 at 04:31 PM..
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Smitty10 For This Totally Excellent Post:
bhflyer5 (10-01-2015)
  #274  
Old 09-29-2015, 04:26 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by FSUFlyer View Post
Which specific violations?
providing alcohol to a minor and hooking up with anyone who has been drinking
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 09-29-2015, 05:41 PM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
Originally Posted by Sea Bass View Post
I really don't think UD is worried about a civil suit. They are worried about the Feds showing up on campus and investigating they university like they did at XU.
I would be more worried bout the civil suit. A loss there could be expensive and those tax schools' reputations more than behind the scenes investigations. There are over 100 schools under investigation for Title IX violations because any time an issue like this draws enough attention it's looked into. But all that ever happens is schools adjust their policies in an attempt to improve them and help students in future situations.

Last edited by FSUFlyer; 09-29-2015 at 05:44 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 09-29-2015, 06:06 PM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
providing alcohol to a minor and hooking up with anyone who has been drinking
In the police report, Pierre says the 3 women who came over brought their own alcohol. He does not say his underage roommate drank at their apartment. He does say his roommate did not go to the bar because his roommate wasn't 21. If his roommate drank at the apartment, it's quite possible he drank the accuser's "Parrot Bay and vodka", putting her (or her friends) in violation of the CoC.

The CoC does NOT say having sex after drinking is a violation.

Nowher in the below do I see that stated. I've searched "alcohol" and "consent" in the entire CoC pdf and have found nothing to support your claim.

Effective Consent:
Whether sexual misconduct has occurred depends in part on whether “effective consent” exists. Effective consent is granted when a person freely, actively, and knowingly agrees at the time to participate in a particular sexual act with a particular person. Effective Consent exists when mutually understandable words and/or actions demonstrate a willingness to participate in mutually-agreed-upon activity at every stage of that sexual activity. Effective consent has time boundaries. Consent at one time does not imply consent at another time. The existence of a dating/romantic relationship between the persons involved or the fact of a previous sexual relationship does not automatically establish effective consent for future sexual activity. There is no consent when agreement is only inferred from a person’s silence or lack of resistance; there is threat of physical force, harm or intimidation, or there is coercion. There is no consent when the person is under the age of 16. There is no consent when someone engaging in sexual behavior knew or should have known that the other person was incapacitated. Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent.
Incapacitation:
A person is incapacitated if he or she is unable to understand what is happening or is disoriented, helpless, asleep or unconscious for any reason, including due to alcohol or other drugs. Indicators and/or evidence of incapacitation include but are not limited to outrageous/unusual behavior, inability or diminished ability to accurately discern his/her environment (who, what, where, when and/or how), slurred speech, vomiting, severe intoxication, black/brown out, loss of voluntary motor skills, loss of involuntary motor skills, disjointed speech patterns (unable to follow a conversation or verbalize complete thoughts, and/or sleepiness that demonstrates an inability to control one’s ability to stay awake.
The underlined portion says that even if someone were intoxicated, it doesn't excuse them for sexually assaulting someone. It says the CoC will assume the accused is of "sober and reasonable person", NOT the accuser.

Based on the girl's statement, she wasn't incapacitated.

Based on UD's CoC, students are allowed to engage in sex with effective consent.

Was effective consent granted? There is simply no way a CoC hearing could determine that the answer is "No" (or "Yes") when the police had insufficient evidence to press charges.

Even if Pierre supplied his roommate with drinks, that alone doesn't warrant a semester-long expulsion from school.

Last edited by FSUFlyer; 09-29-2015 at 06:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 09-29-2015, 06:54 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
No based on the written words, the code of conduct does not say that. The code says effective consent requires words and/or actions and that one is to err on the side of caution and presume the other party can not give effective consent.

Athletes in particular are counseled repeatedly to not engage in sexual activity when alcohol is involved because you should presume this situation is going to occur and the other party will claim they were incapacitated.

Pierre chose to ignore all of that.

We have no idea what other testimony came into play later - such as his supposedly handsy behavour when drinking. We have no idea if there have been prior hearings with lesser punishment (someone else may).

The Cleary Act has resulted in some policies that are way to squishy and result in largely predetermined dispositions in he said/she said cases. I agree with that. But it is what it is.

But the next time I hear no charges were filed I'm about ready to go nuts. Really, we've sunk so low that our conditions for playing basketball are just don't be charged with a crime. We don't care what you do, just don't commit a crime. Don't we aspire to higher standards of behavour?

That said, if this is a first offense, and based solely on the police report, I have a hard time coming to a full semester suspension. But if this isn't a first appearance at one of the hearings for any reason, then I'm totally fine with it.
Reply With Quote
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to UDDoug For This Totally Excellent Post:
anthonycharles (09-29-2015), FLYER5 (09-30-2015), flyerfanatic86 (09-30-2015)
  #278  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:04 PM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
It's WHY no charges were filed that is important: INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE. Yet a CoC hearing thinks there IS evidence to implement a semester-long expulsion. There is literally ZERO evidence in this "case". None. No rape kit. No clothing. No bruises or photos. No DNA. No BAC. No toxicology. Well, I suppose the texts are technically evidence.

Personally, I hate when people say, "Oh, he should've known better." Or, "It's his own fault for being in that situation." Very simplistic and worthless view on the issue for the intentionally naive and faux righteous bunch to parrot about. Should people simply never have sex? Because literally every time consensual sex occurs one of the people involved can claim rape. But according to some, you shouldn't have sex because "You should've known this could happen."

Aspire to better behavior? Sure. But you/we don't KNOW that Pierre behaved improperly. That's the entire point.

===================

My comment was to correct rollo and others for inaccurately and repeatedly stating that Pierre is automatically in violation of the CoC by simply drinking and copulaing. Pierre is not, and they are absolutely wrong in saying that he is.

===================

Now, if there were previous CoC hearings with Pierre, they most likely would've come out by now. Not by the school, but by the other student(s) involved to show support of the accuser. So my presumption is there is not. Obviously if there are, or if there is ****ing information that wasn't in the police report, than things change. But until then..."He wasn't charged due to insufficient evidence" will be THE most critical part of this entire story.

Also, I don't even think the alcohol is all that important in THIS situation. Per her own story in the police report she did not fit the description of incapacitation: "disoriented, helpless, asleep or unconscious for any reason". She knew where she was, who she was with, and was awake and conscious. She makes no mention of memory loss or blacking out. You could argue "helpless", but that she admits to being able to walk around getting water, going to the bathroom and doesn't claim to have ever been forced onto the bed makes it a hard sell.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to FSUFlyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
Gazoo (09-30-2015), jack72 (09-30-2015)
  #279  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:14 PM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
You're a day late and a dollar short at this point...

Originally Posted by FSUFlyer View Post

My comment was to correct rollo and others for inaccurately and repeatedly stating that Pierre is automatically in violation of the CoC by simply drinking and copulaing. Pierre is not, and they are absolutely wrong in saying that he is.

P.51

"There is no consent when someone engaging in sexual behavior knew or should have known that the other person was incapacitated. Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent."
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:40 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
It's irrelevant to me if charges were not filed. Two totally different standards and two totally different objectives. One establishes whether or not there is sufficient evidence to believe a crime has occurred. Clearly not enough evidence for that.

The other is whether it is more likely than not that a student did not live up to expected standards. Not a crime, but expected standards of behavior. And not probable a jury may find guilty beyond a reasonable doubt but more likely than not those standards were violated. Different measure and different level of proof.

By both admissions drinks were consumed before and at Tims. The policy does not explicitly say no alcohol no sex, but says if alcohol is involved presume incapacitation and inability to consent. Alcohol affects different people differently. I don't find it unreasonable for a person to conclude that drinking before Tims and at Tims that impairment was reasonable to assume.

When applying the standards they are not going to consider the state of the accused - i.e. It is not relevant Pierre was drinking and may not recognize impairment. They are going to judge based on what a sober and reasonable person would conclude.

Further incapacitation occurs at a far lower stare than helpless, disoriented , asleep, unable to walk. Lowering of inhibitions to the extent you make decisions you would not make sober is enough.

Based upon the police report It is certainly reasonable to conclude it is more likely than not violations of the code of conduct occurred. This isn't criminal court, it isn't innocent till proven guilty and it isn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The penalty may be too severe, but I haven't seen or read all the testimony presented.
Posted via Mobile Device

Last edited by UDDoug; 09-30-2015 at 09:26 AM..
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to UDDoug For This Totally Excellent Post:
flyerfanatic86 (09-30-2015), Runnin' Rebel (09-29-2015)
  #281  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:49 PM
Avid Flyer's Avatar
Avid Flyer Avid Flyer is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
Avid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
ry
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
P.51

"There is no consent when someone engaging in sexual behavior knew or should have known that the other person was incapacitated. Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent."
Based on the last sentence alone either no one should ever have sex or every person should be punished for not erring on the side of caution. As far as I know there are no breathalyzers available on dorm floors, so it would be very difficult to know of a person who drank several hours earlier was still inebriated...cause most who are, are laying face down somewhere and not able to talk, walk etc, or are in the bathroom hugging their new friend. In this case it would seem the test would be the accused ability to walk out of the room, go to a bathroom, walk around the room, carry on a conversation, reenter the room and hop back up on the bed. Apparently there was not slurred speech. No reaching out to a friend on her cell phone for help/support.

Really having a hard time here understanding 3 girls going to DP's apartment, providing their own alcohol while making a claim he is too touchy feely and aggressive. Persons out for a good clean night of fun do not go into the lions den when the lion is home.

Guess the difference between this situation and Londons night with a hooker prior to the NIT championship game was that the female did not file a complaint. Ergo no punishment for London.
Reply With Quote
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to Avid Flyer For This Totally Excellent Post:
Gazoo (09-30-2015), jack72 (09-30-2015), shocka43 (09-29-2015)
  #282  
Old 09-29-2015, 08:58 PM
Avid Flyer's Avatar
Avid Flyer Avid Flyer is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 8,906
Thanks: 3,535
Thanked 3,787 Times in 1,933 Posts
Avid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond reputeAvid Flyer has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
It's irrelevant to me if charges were not filed. Too totally different standards and two totally different objectives. One establishes whether or not there is sufficient evidence to believe a crime has occurred. Clearly not enough evidence for that.

The other is whether it is more likely than not that a student did not live up to expected standards. Not a crime, but expected standards of behavior. And not probable a jury may find guilty beyond a reasonable doubt but more likely yah not those standards were violated. Different measure and different level of proof.

By both admissions drinks were consumed before and at Tims. The policy does not explicitly say no alcohol no sex, but says if alcohol is involved presume incapacitation and inability to consent. Alcohol affects different people differently. I don't find it unreasonable for a person to conclude that drinking before Tims and at Tims that impairment was reasonable to assume.

When applying the standards they are not going to consider the state of the accused - i.e. It is not relevant Pierre was drinking and may not recognize impairment. They are going to judge based on what a sober and reasonable person would conclude.

Further incapacitation occurs at a far lower stare than helpless, disoriented , asleep, unable to walk. Lowering of inhibitions to the extent you make decisions you would not make sober is enough.

Based upon the police report It is certainly reasonable to conclude it is more likely than not violations of the code of conduct occurred. This isn't criminal court, it isn't innocent till proven guilty and it isn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The penalty may be too severe, but I haven't seen or read all the testimony presented.
Posted via Mobile Device
So female students have all rights and male students have none. A lot of presumptions built in to protect the accuser while no safeguards for the accused. What we are seeing is women wanting equal rights on things they want, when they want and the power to weild such power when they chose to.
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:54 PM
shocka43's Avatar
shocka43 shocka43 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: It's hot and there is fire
Posts: 9,353
Thanks: 5,412
Thanked 9,809 Times in 4,072 Posts
shocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by rollo View Post
P.51

"There is no consent when someone engaging in sexual behavior knew or should have known that the other person was incapacitated. Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent."
My issue with this is "incapacitated"...or helpless, lacking power, powerless...if one is to look at the definition.

If you want a CoC that has teeth, simply say "under the influence" or "intoxicated"...even then...intoxicated leaves it up for determination with levels. I can polish off a 12 pack and one would thing I was stone sober...another person may not be able to stand up. But whether it was 4 beers or 40 beers, you can still state under the influence.

A policy that simply states "students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent." seems to be a "disorderly conduct" catch all of sorts with the CoC. Basically...if two consenting adults polish off some drinks and get in the sack, they are fine...that is unless someone comes forth with allegations. Just for one minute...had the roles been reversed and DP stated he was taken advantage of due to intoxication...would that be looked at the same? Absolutely not.

I am not stating that neither violated the CoC...as it appears they have...but the definition of "incapacitation" and one being incapacitated versus a heavy buzz from a night at Tims, are much different. Had one party been passed out and taken advantage of, not only is that a crime, but that would be an obvious violation of the CoC given one being incapacitated.

Hate to say it...but based on the report...I have a hard time believing that both parties weren't clearly aware of their actions...both may have violated a loosely interpreted CoC by a group of people with no legaleze background. Also, the arguments presented about DP being "grabby" when intoxicated...wouldn't that be a clue to not hang out with the guy? All parties involved willingly put themselves into a position to be with DP that night, knowing full well his past. I am not stating that because a person puts themselves in a poor situation that they have less of a defense to become a victim....but if I know that someone is inappropriate...I don't put myself in a position to be around it. She placed herself in that apartment. Not once, but a handful of times. Communicated with him. Had multiple "outs". There are way too many variables to come out and say someone was a victim of a crime. Both admit to drinking....but neither come off with a statement that they were highly intoxicated.

I think many are making this entire thing way too complex. I honestly believe had the information not made its way to the coaching staff and Title IX, this would not have occurred. Buyers remorse set in once the cat was out of the bag, knowing full well that there were going to be far reaching implications with someone's personal life and a lack of accountability for ones actions. As a disclaimer, I am fully aware of the two sides of sexual assault cases and one being reluctant to come forward. I look at it from the legal aspect, which the prosecutor apparently agrees. I am not arguing that he may or may not have violated an interpreted CoC. But to think that students are being removed for having sex after drinking is absurd. IMO, the ONLY reason sanctions were handed down is because of an allegation of assault and a non-consensual encounter. And in this case, there isn't nearly enough evidence to show that this was non-consensual. The criminal court sees that, but the kangaroo doesn't allow for that critical of an assessment. Try explaining the courts and criminal procedure to college students...life experience prevents them from proper application...unless they are law students.
Reply With Quote
3 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to shocka43 For This Totally Excellent Post:
1in25 (09-30-2015), Avid Flyer (09-30-2015), rollo (09-30-2015)
  #284  
Old 09-29-2015, 09:54 PM
TerryK_67 TerryK_67 is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: westerville, Ohio
Posts: 1,358
Thanks: 902
Thanked 978 Times in 480 Posts
TerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond reputeTerryK_67 has a reputation beyond repute
We are all just wallowing in the muck now .... no new information in weeks. Let's give it a rest until there is actually some new news.
Reply With Quote
6 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to TerryK_67 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Chris R (09-29-2015), Flyer69ers (09-30-2015), flyerfanatic86 (09-30-2015), Glen Clark (09-29-2015), udstevied_D87 (09-30-2015), Whacker (09-30-2015)
  #285  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:00 PM
shocka43's Avatar
shocka43 shocka43 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: It's hot and there is fire
Posts: 9,353
Thanks: 5,412
Thanked 9,809 Times in 4,072 Posts
shocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond reputeshocka43 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
This isn't criminal court, it isn't innocent till proven guilty and it isn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The penalty may be too severe, but I haven't seen or read all the testimony presented.
Posted via Mobile Device
UD will find out all too soon if the punishment was too severe...as will their attorneys.

If a governing body has the power to significantly impact a student's future, they sure as hell better have a significant violation of a CoC. Does the punishment fit the "crime"? I don't know what past practice is. But if this isn't in line with past practice, it will get ugly.
Reply With Quote
2 UDPriders Offer Mad Props to shocka43 For This Totally Excellent Post:
Avid Flyer (09-30-2015), cobra8u (09-29-2015)
  #286  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:05 PM
Angry John Angry John is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 301
Thanks: 105
Thanked 287 Times in 110 Posts
Angry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud of
Who has more validity? Rules based upon the US Constitution and The Bill of Rights or some rules based on some PC/Title IX run Student Board with Rollo/UD2 types being the judge and jury based upon their so called moral codes. Pretty simple choice.

Last edited by Angry John; 09-29-2015 at 10:10 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:07 PM
UDTradition UDTradition is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NJ
Posts: 625
Thanks: 759
Thanked 407 Times in 203 Posts
UDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant futureUDTradition has a brilliant future
There is pain and there is suffering. As many learned psychologists tell us...pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

We're still in pain...

Maybe by showing our discontent we can effect positive change.
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:13 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
The US bill of rights and constitution do not apply to these type of private matters.
Posted via Mobile Device
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:16 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
So female students have all rights and male students have none. A lot of presumptions built in to protect the accuser while no safeguards for the accused. What we are seeing is women wanting equal rights on things they want, when they want and the power to weild such power when they chose to.
When you are talking consent, yes. How about a simple question - you ok with this? Then you don't have this issue.

Like it or not, that's what these things have turned into. It is reality. And the basketball players are very much aware what reality is. Choose to ignore the advice you get at your own peri.

A male can bring the same charges against a female too. Of course not many do.

The fake cases like Duke and UVa have done a great disservice to a significant issue that needs to be addressed.
Posted via Mobile Device

Last edited by UDDoug; 09-29-2015 at 10:25 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #290  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:17 PM
UDEE79's Avatar
UDEE79 UDEE79 is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Beavercreek Ohio
Posts: 3,602
Thanks: 2,977
Thanked 2,415 Times in 1,074 Posts
UDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond reputeUDEE79 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
The US bill of rights and constitution do not apply to these type of private matters.
Posted via Mobile Device
But this private matter is influenced and you could even say preordained by federal law: Title IX.
Reply With Quote
  #291  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:23 PM
Angry John Angry John is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 301
Thanks: 105
Thanked 287 Times in 110 Posts
Angry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud of
Ah ha UD Doug fell into my trap. Currently Catholic Universities are not private like their little brothers the Catholic High Schools. There are Federal laws like Title IX they have to answer to and they are recipients of federal money for engineering research. They also have to answer to the state now on police report matters.That private argument is losing validity and Peter Ginsberg will expose it.
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to Angry John For This Totally Excellent Post:
UDEE79 (09-29-2015)
  #292  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:26 PM
UDDoug UDDoug is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,242
Thanks: 66
Thanked 3,342 Times in 1,988 Posts
UDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond reputeUDDoug has a reputation beyond repute
Not private in that sense. The constitution and bill of rights don't apply for non criminal hearings. The same rules of due process, innocent until proven guilty and guilty beyond a reasonable doubt do not apply. Pretty well established by the courts in most such matters which are private in the sense the government is not the tryer of fact.
Posted via Mobile Device

Last edited by UDDoug; 09-30-2015 at 09:50 AM..
Reply With Quote
Mad Props to UDDoug For This Totally Excellent Post:
flyerfanatic86 (09-30-2015)
  #293  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:33 PM
Angry John Angry John is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 301
Thanks: 105
Thanked 287 Times in 110 Posts
Angry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud of
Serving alcohol to minors is a criminal matter. No police charges or involvement in this.Ginsberg will tear UD up in this matter.
Reply With Quote
  #294  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:36 PM
ClaytonFlyerFan's Avatar
ClaytonFlyerFan ClaytonFlyerFan is offline
General of the Air Force
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,041
Thanks: 8,803
Thanked 8,557 Times in 3,702 Posts
ClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond reputeClaytonFlyerFan has a reputation beyond repute
Maybe I missed the memo, but when is Ginsberg meeting with UD, filing the lawsuit, or whatever the next step is in his defense of DP? Has a time and date been set?
Reply With Quote
  #295  
Old 09-29-2015, 10:37 PM
Angry John Angry John is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 301
Thanks: 105
Thanked 287 Times in 110 Posts
Angry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud ofAngry John has much to be proud of
Go ahead you self rightous ones and put your faith in Codes of Conduct and Student Boards.
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:07 AM
FSUFlyer's Avatar
FSUFlyer FSUFlyer is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 415
Thanks: 205
Thanked 104 Times in 59 Posts
FSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really niceFSUFlyer is just really nice
That's nice. You're still wrong, bruh.

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
P.51

"There is no consent when someone engaging in sexual behavior knew or should have known that the other person was incapacitated. Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent."
I LITERALLY quoted the "Incapacitation" section just 3 comments above your own. Either way, you are WRONG. No other way to say it.

Here, I'll repost the entire comment for you to re-read:

Originally Posted by rollo View Post
providing alcohol to a minor and hooking up with anyone who has been drinking
In the police report, Pierre says the 3 women who came over brought their own alcohol. He does not say his underage roommate drank at their apartment. He does say his roommate did not go to the bar because his roommate wasn't 21. If his roommate drank at the apartment, it's quite possible he drank the accuser's "Parrot Bay and vodka", putting her (or her friends) in violation of the CoC.

The CoC does NOT say having sex after drinking is a violation.

Nowher in the below do I see that stated. I've searched "alcohol" and "consent" in the entire CoC pdf and have found nothing to support your claim.

Effective Consent:
Whether sexual misconduct has occurred depends in part on whether “effective consent” exists. Effective consent is granted when a person freely, actively, and knowingly agrees at the time to participate in a particular sexual act with a particular person. Effective Consent exists when mutually understandable words and/or actions demonstrate a willingness to participate in mutually-agreed-upon activity at every stage of that sexual activity. Effective consent has time boundaries. Consent at one time does not imply consent at another time. The existence of a dating/romantic relationship between the persons involved or the fact of a previous sexual relationship does not automatically establish effective consent for future sexual activity. There is no consent when agreement is only inferred from a person’s silence or lack of resistance; there is threat of physical force, harm or intimidation, or there is coercion. There is no consent when the person is under the age of 16. There is no consent when someone engaging in sexual behavior knew or should have known that the other person was incapacitated. Regardless of the state of the accused, the University Hearing Board will use the perspective of a “sober and reasonable person” in determining whether one should have known about the impact of the use of alcohol, drugs, mental illness, etc. on another’s ability to give consent. Because incapacitation may be difficult to discern, students are strongly encouraged to err on the side of caution; i.e., when in doubt, assume the other person is incapacitated and therefore unable to give effective consent.
Incapacitation:
A person is incapacitated if he or she is unable to understand what is happening or is disoriented, helpless, asleep or unconscious for any reason, including due to alcohol or other drugs. Indicators and/or evidence of incapacitation include but are not limited to outrageous/unusual behavior, inability or diminished ability to accurately discern his/her environment (who, what, where, when and/or how), slurred speech, vomiting, severe intoxication, black/brown out, loss of voluntary motor skills, loss of involuntary motor skills, disjointed speech patterns (unable to follow a conversation or verbalize complete thoughts, and/or sleepiness that demonstrates an inability to control one’s ability to stay awake.
The underlined portion says that even if someone were intoxicated, it doesn't excuse them for sexually assaulting someone. It says the CoC will assume the accused is of "sober and reasonable person", NOT the accuser.

Based on the girl's statement, she wasn't incapacitated.

Based on UD's CoC, students are allowed to engage in sex with effective consent.

Was effective consent granted? There is simply no way a CoC hearing could determine that the answer is "No" (or "Yes") when the police had insufficient evidence to press charges.

Even if Pierre supplied his roommate with drinks, that alone doesn't warrant a semester-long expulsion from school.
Reply With Quote
  #297  
Old 09-30-2015, 06:43 AM
Buster Goode Buster Goode is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Fernando Valley, CA
Posts: 3,285
Thanks: 1,215
Thanked 2,164 Times in 1,008 Posts
Buster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond reputeBuster Goode has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I would think it's standard to let the accused know exactly what he's being accused of down to the specifics. Here's why. Let's pretend he wasn't.
************************************************** *

Can you tell us what you did the night of 4/23?
Yes, I ate, went to the bathroom, and went out.

Can you get more detailed?
Like how?

Were you with any women that night?
Yes.

Can you tell us who?
There were a lot of women I talked to that night.

Where did you talk to them?
at home and when I went out.

Did you have sexual relations with any woman that night?
no.

Did you have sexual relations with any woman early in the morning?
Yes.

Was it consensual?
Yes.

Who was the woman?
Now you're getting personal, why are you asking me these questions?

Because the woman has made an accusation about you?
What kind of accusation?

That you had non-consensual sex with here.
The sex was consensual.

Will you tell us step by step how you got to the point of consensual sex?
She and I went clubbing, we came home and we kissed, hugged and one thing led to another and we had sex.

************************************************** *******

The above shows that a smart person answers no questions without knowing why the question is being asked. You can't get the answers any other way. And even if they got more detailed with their questions on the night it happened or after getting her report a smart person would have their lawyer in there with him and he would make sure every question related to any allegation was exposed before allowing his client to answer it. This is the only way to get his side of the story without taking a year asking questions and responding to questions from the accused prior to his answering anything.
I think the only thing left now is a casting call.
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Old 09-30-2015, 08:02 AM
superfan99 superfan99 is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 607
Thanks: 1,066
Thanked 577 Times in 257 Posts
superfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond reputesuperfan99 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by UDDoug View Post
Further incapacitation occurs at a far lower stare than helpless, disoriented , asleep, unable to walk. Lowering of inhibitions to the extent you make decisions you would not make sober is enough.
"Lowering inhibitions to the extent you make decisions you would not make sober is enough" Enough for what? To be called rape? I strongly disagree.

Since when are we not still responsible for our actions even if we had a few drinks? People are held accountable for DUI's. Why? They were drunk, they didn't know any better.

Agree that helpless, disoriented, asleep, unable to walk is a visible condition and average decent people would stay away. IMO this is wrong.

Making a decision you wouldn't make sober is a really really low bar. I have never danced at a wedding or elsewhere without having at least a drink or two, so that is a decision I wouldn't make sober.

I just don't see how if a girl and I would normally not "be together" and one night we are hanging out, have a few drinks, are having fun and decide what the heck. That is a decision we wouldn't make sober, but IMO not a crime or wrong in any way.

None of this is meant to refer to the DP case, no idea what happened. I am just amazed at the general discussions where the bar is set so low that 50% of the time people have sex it would be considered rape or a violation of some sort.

Rant over. Longest post I have ever had.
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Old 09-30-2015, 08:13 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by FSUFlyer View Post
Either way, you are WRONG. No other way to say it.
You are correct in your interpretation of the CoC...and based on the punishment handed down by the Hearing Board, you and your interpretation are also alone.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?
Reply With Quote
  #300  
Old 09-30-2015, 08:18 AM
rollo's Avatar
rollo rollo is offline
Committed to this Web Site and Your Enjoyment!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: RolloCon
Posts: 16,551
Thanks: 16,238
Thanked 15,876 Times in 6,981 Posts
rollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond reputerollo has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Angry John View Post
Ginsberg will tear UD up in this matter.
Pierre's lawyers have said UD's policies are based on faulty Federal laws...which implies UD is following the law and that it's the laws that need to change first.

Here's the Feds "Dear Colleague Letter"... https://www.udayton.edu/finadmin/cam...ril%202011.pdf

Not sure how UD gets torn up based on this.
__________________
I shaved my balls for this?

Last edited by rollo; 09-30-2015 at 09:01 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement System V2.6 By   Branden

     
 
Copyright 1996-2012 UDPride.com. All Rights Reserved.