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  #1  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:18 PM
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Terrible Offensive Scheme Once Again: Part 2

Geez, only 107 points tonight. I assume the constant critics will come out from under their rocks and say he can't coach defense, which is his strong point,
Great win Flyers! That was a clinic in coaching VCU press. Killed it!
I remain very positive for the future of UD hoops and coming recruits by AG
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:21 PM
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Probably a typo, but it was only 106 so expect even more complaints about the offense.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:23 PM
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Yep

No talent
AM left the team a mess
Poor coaching
We want it both ways.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:29 PM
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Remember guys, we aren't as bad as we thought we were yesterday, and aren't as good as we think we are tonight. But tonight was sure a big positive step forward on our journey.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:33 PM
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I am not here to call out all the critics who said Grant can't coach, and his offensive strategy is non-existent, or to point out the few, it seemed, who said he could coach. Let bygones be bygones. Enjoy the great victory and be content that there is great hope for this coach and team.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Yep

No talent
AM left the team a mess
Poor coaching
We want it both ways.
No, just better coaching then this board ever gave AG credit for.
AM was awesome and will always be a UD favorite to me
But, Darrell Davis under AG coaching...wow, absolute breakout in confidence
I still believe this season will be a long year..ups and downs..no tourney bid
But I believe the future is bright
Tonight was a GREAT DAY TO BE A FLYER!
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  #7  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:45 PM
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Grant can't coach

But he can read

Thanks to all the critics on here with the valuable advice for Grant over the past few weeks. Without all of you we score 53 points maximum tonight. Well done gentlemen.

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  #8  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:15 PM
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Did I hear correctly on Tuesday that UD was 5th in the nation in 2 PT FG%?

Pretty good for a guy who can't coach and a team that until tonight gets very few fast break buckets and never gets the ball into Josh.

Plenty of work to do in coaching and restocking but also plenty of reason to be optimistic earlier rather than later.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Donniex3Era View Post
No, just better coaching then this board ever gave AG credit for.
AM was awesome and will always be a UD favorite to me
But, Darrell Davis under AG coaching...wow, absolute breakout in confidence
I still believe this season will be a long year..ups and downs..no tourney bid
But I believe the future is bright
Tonight was a GREAT DAY TO BE A FLYER!
I agree with you. However, every L brings a rash of "no talent, AM left nothing, AG can't coach". Every win brings "AG walks on water".... (Choose your view)

I see talent. If AG can take the credit for the W's and DD. He can then take credit for the efforts against Duq, Hofstra, Penn, ODU, all games that could and should have been won. Should this be an undefeated team? Not likely. Should the record be better, I say yes. Is and will this team improve?, It seems to be, and should.
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  #10  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
I agree with you. However, every L brings a rash of "no talent, AM left nothing, AG can't coach". Every win brings "AG walks on water".... (Choose your view)

I see talent. If AG can take the credit for the W's and DD. He can then take credit for the efforts against Duq, Hofstra, Penn, ODU, all games that could and should have been won. Should this be an undefeated team? Not likely. Should the record be better, I say yes. Is and will this team improve?, It seems to be, and should.
Iíve generally seen more references to a lack of experience vs. a lack of talent. I think most people would agree that the coach gets too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses.

What I take from last night is that the talent is there and they are developing. It was awesome to see a senior, DD, take the ball to the rim on a 2-1 break and then kick it to a freshman, JD, for a wide open 3. I see young guys continuing to gain confidence and learning to play as a team. I was disappointed that Kostas was out yesterday. I think in a game played the way that game was played he would have put together a reel of blocks and transition dunks.
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  #11  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:12 PM
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Full disclosure, I did not watch the game.

Can you give AG credit for his offensive scheme when the other team presses all night and the offense is fast breaks and playground ball? Or is that not what happened?

If so, we can give him credit for game plan but not scheme.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Full disclosure, I did not watch the game.

Can you give AG credit for his offensive scheme when the other team presses all night and the offense is fast breaks and playground ball? Or is that not what happened?

If so, we can give him credit for game plan but not scheme.
There were multiple times, we broke the press and went into a half court offense with better success than we have seen this year. Why? The players kept moving and running the offense and the passes were crisp and faster. No one held the ball up until the last ten minutes. With several minutes to go in the first half VCU took the press off, and we ran half court offense, and I believe increased the lead.

Can you define the difference between game plan and scheme?
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  #13  
Old 01-13-2018, 04:22 PM
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First, I am happy. I am not complaining. But all is not solved.

I think the game versus VCU proves its better to be lucky than good, and on any given night anything can happen. I'll take the larger sample size of the other 16games instead of tonight's. We still have a lot of work to do.

How much of the win was AG coaching versus guys hitting shots they normally don't hit? 17 3's most ever by a Flyers team. 66points most ever in a first half. 106 most points in last 20yesrs. Did AG draw up a play for Gruden to drain the 3? These are all outlier numbers; far from trends. If we shoot a solid 38% from 3 like VCU did we 'only' win by 12. Still an excellent win and margin of victory, but it probably brings us back down to earth a little bit and we can ask ourselves why we have given up an average of 80 points our last 2 games?

I am happy we won, and if guys hit shots like this for the rest of the year we will be hanging an NCAA championship banner in the arena next fall. But let's not get ahead of ourselves and act like the first 16 games didn't show us some glaring flaws.

And to be clear, if these last 2 games are the new trend, I'll be the first to come back in 3 weeks in this thread that I was wrong and AG has figured out how to get the most of these kids.

In AG we trust.
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  #14  
Old 01-13-2018, 04:36 PM
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First, the coach can only put the players “in a to be successful. He can’t make shots for them. Offensively the coaching staff has done just fine putting these young men in position. If you noticed, we were getting great looks all night long, both against the press and in half court. I do believe this team is much better offensively than we saw against UMASS but not as good as we saw last night (of course who could be that good). We had an amazing 34 assists on 39 buckets. That’s called sharing the ball. There will certainly be games when open looks won’t go in, but on average the movement and ball sharing bodes well for success.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:46 PM
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Last 3 years under Archie, Dayton averaged 109.23 points per 100 possessions. Dayton team under AG is averaging 109.1 points per 100 possessions. Offense is NOT the problem this year. It is inconsistent, but basically a top 100 offense starting 3 players who played basically zero minutes last season (Trey + 2 Freshman).

The issue is the horrid defense again on display last night. AG's teams in 9 years of coaching only once gave up more than 100 points per 100 possessions, his first year st VCU they gave up 102. Dayton is giving up 104.1 this year which is terrible. AG in his 9 seasons averaged giving up 95.3 points per 100 possessions.

If Dayton kept its offense at 109 points per 100 possessions and gave up only 95 points per 100 possessions, Dayton would be a top 40-50 team this season.

Offense is inconsistent, but the problem is the defense.
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  #16  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Last 3 years under Archie, Dayton averaged 109.23 points per 100 possessions. Dayton team under AG is averaging 109.1 points per 100 possessions. Offense is NOT the problem this year. It is inconsistent, but basically a top 100 offense starting 3 players who played basically zero minutes last season (Trey + 2 Freshman).

The issue is the horrid defense again on display last night. AG's teams in 9 years of coaching only once gave up more than 100 points per 100 possessions, his first year st VCU they gave up 102. Dayton is giving up 104.1 this year which is terrible. AG in his 9 seasons averaged giving up 95.3 points per 100 possessions.

If Dayton kept its offense at 109 points per 100 possessions and gave up only 95 points per 100 possessions, Dayton would be a top 40-50 team this season.

Offense is inconsistent, but the problem is the defense.
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So statistically no issue with AG at Alabama?
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
The issue is the horrid defense again on display last night. AG's teams in 9 years of coaching only once gave up more than 100 points per 100 possessions, his first year st VCU they gave up 102. Dayton is giving up 104.1 this year which is terrible. AG in his 9 seasons averaged giving up 95.3 points per 100 possessions.

If Dayton kept its offense at 109 points per 100 possessions and gave up only 95 points per 100 possessions, Dayton would be a top 40-50 team this season.

Offense is inconsistent, but the problem is the defense.
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Bingo!
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Last 3 years under Archie, Dayton averaged 109.23 points per 100 possessions. Dayton team under AG is averaging 109.1 points per 100 possessions. Offense is NOT the problem this year. It is inconsistent, but basically a top 100 offense starting 3 players who played basically zero minutes last season (Trey + 2 Freshman).

The issue is the horrid defense again on display last night. AG's teams in 9 years of coaching only once gave up more than 100 points per 100 possessions, his first year st VCU they gave up 102. Dayton is giving up 104.1 this year which is terrible. AG in his 9 seasons averaged giving up 95.3 points per 100 possessions.

If Dayton kept its offense at 109 points per 100 possessions and gave up only 95 points per 100 possessions, Dayton would be a top 40-50 team this season.

Offense is inconsistent, but the problem is the defense.
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Spot on. Our defense has been terrible. Does anyone really think that Grant is playing zone because he thinks it is a better defense? Our zone is not good, and our man has been worse. When we are not shooting well, the only chance of winning against a decent team is good defense and rebounding.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
Can you define the difference between game plan and scheme?
Scheme is the standard offense. Playing 3 guards vs. 4 guards. Our go-to half court set.

Game plan is (potentially) changing all that to exploit a perceived weakness in the opponent.

So vs. VCU, the scheme could have been the standard offense, which before scoring 100+ points and having everything we throw at the rim go in was seriously sputtering at times. But game plan might have been attack the press, shoot in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock, and never run the standard offense unless you absolutely have to.

I'm not saying that is what happened, I'm saying that I missed the game and was just asking if that explained what happened. Sounds like it does not, which is great.

Originally Posted by ruechalgrin View Post
Last 3 years under Archie, Dayton averaged 109.23 points per 100 possessions. Dayton team under AG is averaging 109.1 points per 100 possessions. Offense is NOT the problem this year.
1. What was it before VCU? Even with the growing sample size I have to imagine it averaged up a good bit, maybe by 2 points?
2. How does that rank nationally? I'm betting there's a very large difference between 109 and 107--if that's what we're really at before VCU.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:38 PM
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The VCU game plan was break the press. Once the press was broken, the VCU defense was butter. It was shooting fish in a barrel.

If UD did not break the press, VCU would get turnovers and easy baskets.

With freshman playing especially at guard, everything centered around not turning the ball over.

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Old 01-15-2018, 03:06 PM
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Thumbs up Good summary

Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
The VCU game plan was break the press. Once the press was broken, the VCU defense was butter. It was shooting fish in a barrel.

If UD did not break the press, VCU would get turnovers and easy baskets.

With freshman playing especially at guard, everything centered around not turning the ball over.
Enter stage right-- Jalen Crutcher, Darrell Davis, Jordan Davis, and Trey. Combined 26 assists and 4 turnovers. wow.
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:05 PM
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I don't know what kind of expectations folks had for the season. Me personally, I had none. Very much a wait and see what we have and how the new staff adjusts. I still have no expectations. Still too unpredictable, even 15+ games into the season

I will say this - this team has the capability to beat anyone in this conference, so I do have hope that this team will compete in March for an opportunity to play in the dance.

Furthermore, it's amazing how much better of a coach AG is when the players are making shots, particularly 3-pointers.......like 17 of them.

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Old 01-17-2018, 08:52 PM
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Tonight is why we need an offensive plan. I mean, a plan aside from casting 3's. Shoot like we did against VCU and you put up 100+. When you come back to reality and the shots don't fall, it's beyond obvious that we don't have another plan of attack.

We don't.
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pmcmullen View Post
Tonight is why we need an offensive plan. I mean, a plan aside from casting 3's. Shoot like we did against VCU and you put up 100+. When you come back to reality and the shots don't fall, it's beyond obvious that we don't have another plan of attack.

We don't.
Sadly I agree. There has to be more.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by pmcmullen View Post
Tonight is why we need an offensive plan. I mean, a plan aside from casting 3's. Shoot like we did against VCU and you put up 100+. When you come back to reality and the shots don't fall, it's beyond obvious that we don't have another plan of attack.

We don't.
Agree. For the first time in 20 years, it's hard to get excited about UD basketball.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by pmcmullen View Post
Tonight is why we need an offensive plan. I mean, a plan aside from casting 3's. Shoot like we did against VCU and you put up 100+. When you come back to reality and the shots don't fall, it's beyond obvious that we don't have another plan of attack.

We don't.
I am just afraid that the SJU game is going to become the plan for every A10 team on how to beat us. I do not think we have another plan of attack. The offense looks similar to BG's offense. Other A10 teams had BG's number, I fear the same thing happening with AG.

This is how AG's teams looked at Alabama, after him being there for several years. I see little reason to expect enough improvement, such that we get where we want to go. The VCU game was a mirage. The problem is the head coach, not the players.

Things are not going to get much better in the future. We can pretty much expect to look forward to more of what we saw last night.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
The offense looks similar to BG's offense.
Disagree here...but it gets the same results...

BG's offense did nothing but force the offense to run deep into the shot clock to force up a 3.

AG's offense does nothing but get open shots from the perimeter all day while abandoning the post and the only relief being a guarded cut to the basket.
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2 View Post
I am just afraid that the SJU game is going to become the plan for every A10 team on how to beat us. I do not think we have another plan of attack. The offense looks similar to BG's offense. Other A10 teams had BG's number, I fear the same thing happening with AG.

This is how AG's teams looked at Alabama, after him being there for several years. I see little reason to expect enough improvement, such that we get where we want to go. The VCU game was a mirage. The problem is the head coach, not the players.

Things are not going to get much better in the future. We can pretty much expect to look forward to more of what we saw last night.
Not the players? you have to be joking.
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:16 PM
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It is becoming very obvious that UD can run and shoot. They cannot and will not play hard in your face defense.

The largest anchor around their joint offensive neck is the inability to dribble drive to penetrate the defense. Only two players, DD and Crosby, seem to have any ability to do this. With no real big guy to pound the ball to, if you do not penetrate, you are toast against decent teams. Crutcher, Landers and Davis may get there, but right now we are toast.

Last year we had four starters who were great at penetration without a true center. Pollard was better at penetration of the defense than anyone on this team.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
1. What was it before VCU? Even with the growing sample size I have to imagine it averaged up a good bit, maybe by 2 points?
2. How does that rank nationally? I'm betting there's a very large difference between 109 and 107--if that's what we're really at before VCU.
Still looking for the answer here, I honestly don't know where to find it or I would look myself. My Google is broken.

Buuuut, I would really like to see what the stats are WITHOUT the one game where we couldn't miss. None of those 106 points carry over to the next game.

Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
It is becoming very obvious that UD can run and shoot. They cannot and will not play hard in your face defense.

The largest anchor around their joint offensive neck is the inability to dribble drive to penetrate the defense. Only two players, DD and Crosby, seem to have any ability to do this. With no real big guy to pound the ball to, if you do not penetrate, you are toast against decent teams. Crutcher, Landers and Davis may get there, but right now we are toast.

Last year we had four starters who were great at penetration without a true center. Pollard was better at penetration of the defense than anyone on this team.
I don't think it's the lack of a center as some have suggested, it's the lack of balance. When Cunningham FINALLY gets his hands on the ball he's gonna shoot it. He might not see it again for 10+ minutes.

Pollard was effective when the other team was off balance. Double? He'll gladly kick it out. No double? He'll wait around to make sure, then make his move. It's unpredictable and organic.0

We are too literal. Here's what we do:
"This is the play where Cunningham shoots."
"This is the play where DD drives."
"This is the play where we throw it around the perimeter until we shoot a 3."

There's no mystery, defenses see it coming a mile away. The ball should go to Cunningham on nearly every play. Then back out. Then back to the post on the other side. I watched closely last night, Cunningham is available, they just WILL NOT throw him the dang ball.

And XW is just killing us. He does not want to be there. His body language says he's going through the motions.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Still looking for the answer here, I honestly don't know where to find it or I would look myself. My Google is broken.

Buuuut, I would really like to see what the stats are WITHOUT the one game where we couldn't miss. None of those 106 points carry over to the next game.
I'm not sure of the reliability or methodology, but TeamRankings has us at 69.4 possessions per game which multiples out to 1249.2 possessions on the year.

1317 pts/1249.2 poss = 1.054 pts/poss

They have the VCU game at 75.1 possessions. So taking out the 106 pts and 75.1 possessions:

1211 pts/1174.1 poss = 1.031 pts/poss

So according to those figures, the VCU game would have raised the average over 2 pts per 100 possessions.
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