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  #1  
Old 01-06-2018, 02:10 PM
pmcmullen pmcmullen is offline
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AG's offensive X's and O's

There are none. I see people blasting Bobby W on Twitter for saying the same. But, he's right. The last play of the game is total proof of that. What a joke! He needs to hire an offensive assistant. The horror stories from days past, VCU and Bama, were no lie. He. Doesn't. Get. It.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:15 PM
CT Flyer CT Flyer is offline
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I can't understand how with 19 seconds and one timeout left that was the best we could come up with to try to tie the game.

I've said this many times about coaching in college: There used to be a day when you made your money as a coach by the plays you drew up in crunch time. Now coaches just hope someone can beat someone else off of the dribble to win games.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:18 PM
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Why are you going guys so shocked at this? They ran very few plays during the game when UMass didn't know who was going to get the ball let alone when you know you're leading scorers going to get it. The end of the game is usually the toughest time to get the shot off that you really want.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:20 PM
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The color guy today was amazed Josh didn't get it more down low
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:27 PM
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We didn't make an entry pass to josh in the second half until there were 6 minutes left in the game. We played like crap for 14 minutes, and not a single adjustment to get the ball to josh down low.

Once we got it to him, he scored or got fouled three times in a row. We get back in the game. Then we forget about him again for the last three minutes and revert to the dumb sideways weave.

Worst coached half of UD basketball i've seen in a long time. And i survived the obrien years. I'm not even sure the coaching staff was in attendance today.

When Daryl, our leading scorer, is out with foul trouble...and our offense is stagnant, can someone tell me why Jordan davis is on the bench for almost the entire 2nd half? Does our staff have alzheimers? Do they not remember they have a bench? Do they not know they can call timeout and change things? What did i just see?

As bad as our defense was in that second half, we lost on offense to a team that was down 2 starters. Just an embarassing and inexcusable loss. Any 6th grade coach could have gotten better results in that 2nd half.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by steve View Post
Why are you going guys so shocked at this? They ran very few plays during the game when UMass didn't know who was going to get the ball let alone when you know you're leading scorers going to get it. The end of the game is usually the toughest time to get the shot off that you really want.
Who said this is a surprise? It's become a trend. A really! Really bad trend.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:30 PM
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UMass played 6 guys and was missing 2 starters. Instead of attacking, we settled for jumpers. Still no emphasis on getting the ball in the paint.
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  #8  
Old 01-06-2018, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
The color guy today was amazed Josh didn't get it more down low
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Perhaps he wouldn’t have been if he had seen more of our games this year.
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  #9  
Old 01-06-2018, 02:39 PM
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The Play:

https://twitter.com/acallagy/status/949717901854101506

The 1st option on the last play was obviously Josh and Grant even said it on the postgame.

https://twitter.com/JBedellWHIO/stat...23829030531072

Trey obviously wasn't patient enough to wait 2 more seconds for Josh and as AG said "the decision was made"(obviously by Trey) to go to the 2nd option of Darrell. That's where everything broke down. AG has to have a screen or something to get Darrell a better shot as the 2nd option.

We all knew (or I hope everyone did) that AG is never going to out X and O anybody. He's going to have to get better players and find a way to get the current ones to give better effort for 40 minutes.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:39 PM
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That last play summed up why I was not thrilled with the hire. He simply cannot coach good offensive basketball. Embarrassing way to end the game
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  #11  
Old 01-06-2018, 02:43 PM
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Never should have been in a position to tie the game at the end. Effort level between the Bonnie win and today was noticeable.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by joeybaloney View Post
That last play summed up why I was not thrilled with the hire. He simply cannot coach good offensive basketball. Embarrassing way to end the game
Don't forget about his substitution patterns. While pretty decent in the first half of the last two game they have been awful otherwise.

Jordan Davis came out with 13:22 to play and never got back in the game.

Then with 9 minutes to play and down 2 AG goes with the lineup of Crutcher, Crosby, Xman, Svoboba and Kostas. That is just awful. UMass stretches it out to 6 with them in for their biggest lead of the game. Finally with 6:55 to play he got them out. Why is Jordan Davis not in the game there instead of Svoboda. Anything but that lineup.
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  #13  
Old 01-06-2018, 03:01 PM
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AG needs time & is still learning the roster. Very hard for a first year coach to be successful even with a good team

The team is young & players are hurt/suspended/ineligible

AG needs time to get his own guys in here

AG is a nice guy who played for DD

The weather

It's Archie's fault
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:16 PM
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Nice guy? Yes. Former Flyer player. Yes. Great face for our program. Absolutely.

That doesn't win games, and it doesn't excuse the total lack of playwriting ability.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
AG needs time & is still learning the roster. Very hard for a first year coach to be successful even with a good team

The team is young & players are hurt/suspended/ineligible

AG needs time to get his own guys in here

AG is a nice guy who played for DD

The weather

It's Archie's fault
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The Apologist line is around the corner to the right.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Buster Goode View Post
The Apologist line is around the corner to the right.
You do realize that OSU Flyer is just listing all the excuses people have/will use for AG. He isn't actually defending AG with all those. He's mocking the people who use them.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
Don't forget about his substitution patterns. While pretty decent in the first half of the last two game they have been awful otherwise.

Jordan Davis came out with 13:22 to play and never got back in the game.

Then with 9 minutes to play and down 2 AG goes with the lineup of Crutcher, Crosby, Xman, Svoboba and Kostas. That is just awful. UMass stretches it out to 6 with them in for their biggest lead of the game. Finally with 6:55 to play he got them out. Why is Jordan Davis not in the game there instead of Svoboda. Anything but that lineup.
I want to understand the logic there as well. Jordan played 21 of the first 27 minutes and then nothing the last 13? Not to mention that Darrell Davis was out a good portion of that time with 4 fouls.

I'd also question why there was no timeout at the beginning of the half. Couple careless passes for turnovers, settling for 3's, and a couple lazy fouls on D as the 5 point lead goes away and UMass takes the lead. A quick timeout to lay into the guys to wake up was in order.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
I want to understand the logic there as well. Jordan played 21 of the first 27 minutes and then nothing the last 13? Not to mention that Darrell Davis was out a good portion of that time with 4 fouls.

I'd also question why there was no timeout at the beginning of the half. Couple careless passes for turnovers, settling for 3's, and a couple lazy fouls on D as the 5 point lead goes away and UMass takes the lead. A quick timeout to lay into the guys to wake up was in order.
Check the game thread. I was begging for a timeout about 1:30 into the 2nd half. AG never takes timeouts to stop runs. He just lets it happen for some reason.

I've tried to see some pattern in the subs and I thought he was doing better in the 1st half but he completely panicked and didn't know what to do once Darrell got a 4th foul. AG needs an assistant coach to help him with this. I thought Solomon was supposed to be that guy but it's not working.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:34 PM
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I’m starting to wonder if AG is pulling players mid game due to lack of effort. Then he parks them on the bench the rest of the game.

There is a pattern here. Crosby was yanked in a South Carolina and never saw the court
Kostas was yanked for his yapping at Duquesne. Never came back in
Williams was benched after injuries.
Cunningham was benched one game in SC also

The mental and physical energy was really low today. I wonder if AG did not like effort of Davis.

I am not sure this is the way to get through to players, but I understand AG feels real challenged with this team.
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:13 PM
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I wondered about some coaching issues. Staying in the zone allowing UM to run the clock. Possibly pressing the inbounds play before the end. I hope that we don't have the same situation here as when Hill, the former NBA player and coach, took over Fordham will all his promises when all he was really looking for was a stepping stone back to the NBA.

However, the TV announcers were brutal and right about the UD players. No energy. This effort was a far cry from the one that beat SBU. No one to help Cunningham. Kostas has a lot to learn and I am starting to understand why he is at UD and not at one of the "major" programs. He is a far cry from his brother and we should not think that he will be his brother in the near future. I was glad to see Williams back but then he seemed to disappear. Was he on the floor at the end?

The minute I saw DD take the ball and start dribbling around at the end, I knew the game was lost. When he controls the ball, I think the other players feel that they will not be getting any passes and he will just charge to the basket or take an outside shot. I though he had an outlet pass to someone near the top of the key but I may be wrong.

Oh well, another learning experience
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer68 View Post
The minute I saw DD take the ball and start dribbling around at the end, I knew the game was lost. When he controls the ball, I think the other players feel that they will not be getting any passes and he will just charge to the basket or take an outside shot.
This is spot on. It has happened all season. Don't understand why AG won't address this. Considering our record, there's no reason he can't come out occasionally.
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:42 PM
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Grant called the play with 19 secs left. Get the ball into the post to Josh, he was open but they never got him the ball. Draw up all the plays you want but if they don't execute the plan like today it's on the players.
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:09 PM
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I think Bob Knight said the hardest part of coaching was getting kids to do what was said in huddle. I hope that's our problem.
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
You do realize that OSU Flyer is just listing all the excuses people have/will use for AG. He isn't actually defending AG with all those. He's mocking the people who use them.
Yes - too many apologists
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Grant called the play with 19 secs left. Get the ball into the post to Josh, he was open but they never got him the ball. Draw up all the plays you want but if they don't execute the plan like today it's on the players.
Truth. From everything I’ve heard, the play was designed to go to Josh in the post. But if the entry pass doesn’t happen, then we’re back to one-on-one, Iso plays. And, with only 5 seconds to go, fat chance on success with that.
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:50 PM
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The mediocre performance is due to a combination of players, experience and coaching.

To say people are apologist in pointing out the lack of talent and experience is delusional. Let’s just take five walk ons and win the national championship. After all, any coach should be able to do it. If you think a Kostas and Matej are playing in the NBA next year, good luck.

A lot of people are scratching their heads about the coaching, offense, substitutions etc.. taking the load off the players is bizarre. Got it.

The coaches called for Josh to get the ball on the last play. The players missed a wide open Josh, then had to force up a shot. That should tell you something.
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:32 PM
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I wonder who's fault this game would've been if Archie had been here. Because that final play call was just fine, but Trey panicked and gave up on the play before it fully developed.
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:52 PM
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We have people blaming Grant for not making interior passes, and also blaming him for benching guys for not doing what they are supposed to. Obvious that none of these people have ever coached. You can lecture players all you want and practice plays all you want, but in the end if a player does not want to execute, does not have the judgement to execute or the skill set to execute, it ain't gonna happen.

I guess Grant could substitute for those guys not executing, but then we end up with a bad lineup that gets nothing done. Let's face it this team has only some talent, with very little experience. The coaching was outstanding last game when we won, and stunk today. The players had little to do with it.
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
The mediocre performance is due to a combination of players, experience and coaching.

To say people are apologist in pointing out the lack of talent and experience is delusional. Let’s just take five walk ons and win the national championship. After all, any coach should be able to do it. If you think a Kostas and Matej are playing in the NBA next year, good luck.

A lot of people are scratching their heads about the coaching, offense, substitutions etc.. taking the load off the players is bizarre. Got it.

The coaches called for Josh to get the ball on the last play. The players missed a wide open Josh, then had to force up a shot. That should tell you something.
Dayton easily had more talent than UMass today. This team has a lot more talent than what you are giving them credit.

Poor execution on the final play, but we have been failing to get Josh the ball in the post all year. If Josh is the #1 option when we need a bucket at the end, the better question is why does it take until under 6 minutes in the 2nd half for him to get a pass into the post?
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by joeybaloney View Post
That last play summed up why I was not thrilled with the hire. He simply cannot coach good offensive basketball. Embarrassing way to end the game.
.

Fans said the same thing when Archie Miller coached his way to a 30pt loss to Buffalo at home - with more talent than this team. Team gave up on him. Can't motivate. Looked clueless on sidelines. Deer in headlights. Funny how much smarter he got over the years as the talent improved.

Everybody must improve. But by everybody, that means the players too. Not just staff.

Let this sink in: we don't do anything different but simply make our foul shots, Duq and UMass flip to Ws. That's with every in-game shortcoming still baked into the cake.
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
We have people blaming Grant for not making interior passes, and also blaming him for benching guys for not doing what they are supposed to. Obvious that none of these people have ever coached. You can lecture players all you want and practice plays all you want, but in the end if a player does not want to execute, does not have the judgement to execute or the skill set to execute, it ain't gonna happen.

I guess Grant could substitute for those guys not executing, but then we end up with a bad lineup that gets nothing done. Let's face it this team has only some talent, with very little experience. The coaching was outstanding last game when we won, and stunk today. The players had little to do with it.
Who was benched for not feeding it into the post?
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:33 PM
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I'm sorry, AG just can't have it both ways.

If you're disappointed by the effort or energy, bench someone or call timeout. Does he do that? No.
If you're feeling the game slip away at the end of the first half and beginning of the second, call timeout or sub in some new players. Does he do that? No. (He ended the first half with all four of his timeouts unused).

He doesn't call time outs, and he leaves a lineup with lackluster effort in for 7-10 minute stretches. Yet after the game he claims he didn't like the effort. WTF?

If that's not on the coach, who is it on?

Additionally, look at the tape and tell me why jordan deserved to be benched for the last 13 minutes of a game in which our best scorer was on the bench? Jordan's first 7 minutes of the second half was probably the best of any of the five guys on the floor. Yet he is benched and never to be seen again when he was playing smart offensively, and not turning the ball over and had 10 of our points in a low scoring game where we couldn't score. Of all the players to bench, he chooses Jordan? Really?

Makes total sense.

I'm not complaining about the last play. It was poorly executed and that is on trey. But that play can and should happen 15 times a game. Josh needs the ball. A child could see that. We have our #2 scorer who shoots 69% for the season against an undermanned umass team and 37 minutes into the game in which our #1 scorer was sidelined with fouls he had taken only 5 shots.

That is simply asinine. It makes zero sense. And the coach and the staff do not get a pass on this one. It's on them.
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:19 PM
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Don't care who, what to blame.

This is getting frustrating and almost at that point that we may have to 'look away' more times than not.

I thought we would have some ups and downs but the downs are starting to be hard to watch (or listen too).


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Old 01-06-2018, 08:21 PM
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Comparing any of this to the Archie era is disingenuous in my opinion. Archie was a first time coach in his 30s. AG is 51 & in his tenth year as a head coach. The advantage of hiring AG is that he didn't have a learning curve.

As far as the players & effort. If they don't give the effort & it's a consistent problem then they need to go
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
.

Fans said the same thing when Archie Miller coached his way to a 30pt loss to Buffalo at home - with more talent than this team. Team gave up on him. Can't motivate. Looked clueless on sidelines. Deer in headlights. Funny how much smarter he got over the years as the talent improved.

Everybody must improve. But by everybody, that means the players too. Not just staff.

Let this sink in: we don't do anything different but simply make our foul shots, Duq and UMass flip to Ws. That's with every in-game shortcoming still baked into the cake.
Archie Miller hadn't been a head coach for 9 years when that happened.
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:26 PM
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Is the implication AG forgot how to coach in the NBA
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
We have people blaming Grant for not making interior passes, and also blaming him for benching guys for not doing what they are supposed to. Obvious that none of these people have ever coached. You can lecture players all you want and practice plays all you want, but in the end if a player does not want to execute, does not have the judgement to execute or the skill set to execute, it ain't gonna happen.

I guess Grant could substitute for those guys not executing, but then we end up with a bad lineup that gets nothing done. Let's face it this team has only some talent, with very little experience. The coaching was outstanding last game when we won, and stunk today. The players had little to do with it.
It's been a consistent problem. It could be a point of emphasis in practice
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Is the implication AG forgot how to coach in the NBA
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The implication is that he never actually knew how to coach in the first place. He knew how to recruit better players than he was playing against in the CAA.
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Who was benched for not feeding it into the post?
Lets say he benched guys for not feeding it into the post. Who's on the court now? Give me your "feeding the post" lineup in the last six minutes. Sounds like several players make your naughty list, so give me the alternate lineup that sent all of the feeding-the-post failures to the bench that you wanted to roll with in the last six minutes -- let alone 13.

And what additional shortcomings does this replacement lineup now expose us to? Because any substitution about feeding the post must include a digestion of the entire skill set of those players because the players must also shoot, defend, and rebound.

Fans can make decisions in a vacuum. Coaches can't. This is a roster where fixing one problem exposes you to an entirely new set of problems. I would even submit that some of the problems on this team are unfixable. You can, at best, attempt to manage them.

How about we manage to make our FTs, not turn the ball over twice to start the second half, again late in the second half, and grab a couple important defensive rebounds? We do these things and never touch coaching and we win by 8-10 by doing nothing other than not tripping over our shoelaces. Instead of constantly asking "why doesn't Grant fix it?", why not ask the players "why do you always make it more difficult than it needs to be?"
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:42 PM
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Holy crap, I just saw in another thread that we have the best field goal percentage in the A10. Thanks, Chris R.

But AGs coaching of the offense is the problem. Do you people even hear yourselves? Or do you like yelling just to yell?
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
UMass played 6 guys and was missing 2 starters. Instead of attacking, we settled for jumpers. Still no emphasis on getting the ball in the paint.
This is it. Even the announcers said we lacked aggression. May also be a lack of talent but we are always running the shot clock down and don't penetrate well. Either we don't try and when we do, too often fumble the ball away.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Lets say he benched guys for not feeding it into the post. Who's on the court now? Give me your "feeding the post" lineup in the last six minutes. Sounds like several players make your naughty list, so give me the alternate lineup that sent all of the feeding-the-post failures to the bench that you wanted to roll with in the last six minutes -- let alone 13.

And what additional shortcomings does this replacement lineup now expose us to? Because any substitution about feeding the post must include a digestion of the entire skill set of those players because the players must also shoot, defend, and rebound.

Fans can make decisions in a vacuum. Coaches can't. This is a roster where fixing one problem exposes you to an entirely new set of problems. I would even submit that some of the problems on this team are unfixable. You can, at best, attempt to manage them.

How about we manage to make our FTs, not turn the ball over twice to start the second half, again late in the second half, and grab a couple important defensive rebounds? We do these things and never touch coaching and we win by 8-10 by doing nothing other than not tripping over our shoelaces. Instead of constantly asking "why doesn't Grant fix it?", why not ask the players "why do you always make it more difficult than it needs to be?"
I wasn't the one implying that he benched players for not feeding the post. I don't think he did and I don't think he emphasizes it enough. It is a philosophy issue that I have criticized Grant about throughout the year.

Grant has benched guys for various reasons throughout and it's exposed us to other problems. He's certainly made some decisions in a vacuum. I wasn't even advocating benching guys because it's a philosophy that needs changed.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
.

Fans said the same thing when Archie Miller coached his way to a 30pt loss to Buffalo at home - with more talent than this team. Team gave up on him. Can't motivate. Looked clueless on sidelines. Deer in headlights. Funny how much smarter he got over the years as the talent improved.

Everybody must improve. But by everybody, that means the players too. Not just staff.

Let this sink in: we don't do anything different but simply make our foul shots, Duq and UMass flip to Ws. That's with every in-game shortcoming still baked into the cake.
Miller had no sample size for tenure to really make that a fair comparison. However the sample size that AG's coaching history gives proof to is that his teams have shown a common deficiency on offense. And it doesn't appear it was due to lack of ability to recruit.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Miller had no sample size for tenure to really make that a fair comparison. However the sample size that AG's coaching history gives proof to is that his teams have shown a common deficiency on offense. And it doesn't appear it was due to lack of ability to recruit.
But AG is an alumnus and a great human being!!! We can't criticize him!!!

I hope it's not a long 3 or 4 years but I'm pretty sure it is going to be.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by priceg75 View Post
Holy crap, I just saw in another thread that we have the best field goal percentage in the A10. Thanks, Chris R.

But AGs coaching of the offense is the problem. Do you people even hear yourselves? Or do you like yelling just to yell?
Josh is shooting 67.2%, which leads the A10. He was also 11th in the country coming into today.

The rest of the team shoots 41.8%, which would be 11th in the A10.

You really think advocating for Josh to get more touches is yelling just to yell?
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:40 PM
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So i guess not even John Wooden could have figured a way (via a lineup, a timeout, or a series of set plays) to get the ball in josh's hands on the low block today with our roster? Is that what i'm led to believe? If that's the case, let's just shut the whole program down.

It's shocking to me that people don't think the coaching staff deserves criticism in this one. Not to mention that we just lost to one of the most depleted teams we've played in recent memory. On our home court. They had one real scorer. Zero timeouts were called when there needed to be timeouts, in the midst of ****ing away a lead or coming out flat in the second half and giving the ball away back to back.

Keeping the lineup roughly the same the entire last 13 minutes of the half and then complaining that he didn't like the effort, execution and outcome. Watching the replay of the game, i honestly can't figure out why jordan davis was on the bench while crosby played. Or even playing trey in favor of jordan made no sense. My only explanation is that they literally forgot they had another good guard who could score sitting on the bench for the last 13 minutes of the game. Because if Jordan was in the doghouse, i can't figure out which play put him there. At the time he was pulled, he had scored the last four points for us, had another three go in and out, and had a block on defense. Yet we never see him again.

In addition to that, if we're going to play crosby and crutcher at the same time, shouldn't crutcher be the one who stays at the point and crosby be the 2 guard? This game was a coaching catastrophe. The kids deserve blame too for the lack of effort and some lack of execution too, but to shield the coaches from criticism i think is just blind faith.
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  #47  
Old 01-07-2018, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Miller had no sample size for tenure to really make that a fair comparison. However the sample size that AG's coaching history gives proof to is that his teams have shown a common deficiency on offense. And it doesn't appear it was due to lack of ability to recruit.
You're making a claim that there is a body of work to suggest Anthony Grant is a deficient offensive coach compared to other coaches or other alternatives. I dont know if you were making the comparison to Archie Miller, but any perfunctory claim deserves some scrutiny. After all, facts don't care about feelings.

So I took the time to actually do the math by looking up the data for every season coached by both gentlemen entering 2017-18, summed up their numbers, and created an average nationally ranking based on those numbers. I feel its a fair comparison because Archie Miller has been routinely labeled on this forum as one of the best offensive coaching minds in college basketball.

Per Ken Pomeroy's average national rankings of Adjusted Offensive Efficiency Ratings entering this season, this is how they averaged out:

Archie Miller: #61 (6 seasons)
Anthony Grant: #85 (9 seasons)

The observation suggested Anthony Grant has a coaching deficiency on the offensive end of the court. Considering there are 351 Division I programs, a delta of 24 ranking positions between the average AOE national ranking between these two coaches is approximately 6.8% of the entire Division I pool.

Considering average FT% contains at least a 6.8% delta from any one game to the next -- let alone almost every other trackable statistic in college basketball -- I consider the Adjusted Offensive Efficiency delta between these two coaches to be too statistically irrelevant to explain away your concerns. That is the only proof I see. Your concerns may be legitimate, but your reasons are misplaced.

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  #48  
Old 01-07-2018, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
You're making a claim that there is a body of work to suggest Anthony Grant is a deficient offensive coach compared to other coaches or other alternatives. I dont know if you were making the comparison to Archie Miller, but any perfunctory claim deserves some scrutiny. After all, facts don't care about feelings.

So I took the time to actually do the math by looking up the data for every season coached by both gentlemen entering 2017-18, summed up their numbers, and created an average nationally ranking based on those numbers. I feel its a fair comparison because Archie Miller has been routinely labeled on this forum as one of the best offensive coaching minds in college basketball.

Per Ken Pomeroy's average national rankings of Adjusted Offensive Efficiency Ratings entering this season, this is how they averaged out:

Archie Miller: #61 (six seasons)
Anthony Grant: #85 (9 seasons)

The observation suggested Anthony Grant has a coaching deficiency on the offensive end of the court. Considering there are 351 Division I programs, a delta of 24 ranking positions between the average AOE national ranking between these two coaches is approximately 6.8% of the entire Division I pool.

Considering average FT% contains at least a 6.8% delta from any one game to the next -- let alone almost every other trackable statistic in college basketball -- I consider the Adjusted Offensive Efficiency delta between these two coaches to be too statistically irrelevant explain away your concerns. That is the only proof I see.

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Would you do the same calculation for defense please?
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:25 AM
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Ken Pom ADE average cumulative national ranking (351 teams):

Archie Miller: 77.5 (6 seasons)
Anthony Grant: 49.2 (9 seasons)

If one insists on clinging to the narrative from the AOE rankings that Grant can't coach offense, one must also cling to the narrative that Miller can't coach defense b/c the delta between these two coaches in defensive rankings is even more pronounced.

Miller had a defense ranked in the Top-30 one time. Grant has done it four times -- including twice in the Top-10. In fact, this year's defense is on pace to finish with a better ADE than the defenses in Miller's first two seasons -- despite the diabolical nature in how the current defense looks to the eyes, shortened bench, youth, and inexperience. Its.....remarkable considering our SOS is #3 this year. In Archie's first season, the season-ending SOS was #100. I'm guessing this year's finishes in the Top-35. So Grant is coaching better defense against a tougher schedule with less talent at his disposal.

What do all these numbers tell us? Anthony Grant deserves no serious evaluation until he has four recruiting seasons under his Flyer belt with his own kids recruited to his own personality, style, and skill set. In the meantime, all he can do is do his best with the pieces he was given. Some nights (SBU) it will work. Others (UMass) it will be a banana peel.
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
You're making a claim that there is a body of work to suggest Anthony Grant is a deficient offensive coach compared to other coaches or other alternatives. I dont know if you were making the comparison to Archie Miller, but any perfunctory claim deserves some scrutiny. After all, facts don't care about feelings.

So I took the time to actually do the math by looking up the data for every season coached by both gentlemen entering 2017-18, summed up their numbers, and created an average nationally ranking based on those numbers. I feel its a fair comparison because Archie Miller has been routinely labeled on this forum as one of the best offensive coaching minds in college basketball.

Per Ken Pomeroy's average national rankings of Adjusted Offensive Efficiency Ratings entering this season, this is how they averaged out:

Archie Miller: #61 (6 seasons)
Anthony Grant: #85 (9 seasons)

The observation suggested Anthony Grant has a coaching deficiency on the offensive end of the court. Considering there are 351 Division I programs, a delta of 24 ranking positions between the average AOE national ranking between these two coaches is approximately 6.8% of the entire Division I pool.

Considering average FT% contains at least a 6.8% delta from any one game to the next -- let alone almost every other trackable statistic in college basketball -- I consider the Adjusted Offensive Efficiency delta between these two coaches to be too statistically irrelevant to explain away your concerns. That is the only proof I see. Your concerns may be legitimate, but your reasons are misplaced.

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Archie Miller- #61 avg (29, 28, 37, 75, 146, 53)
Anthony Grant- #102 avg (18, 157, 64, 88, 144, 115, 151, 128, 53)

41 spot difference.

Eliminate the highest and lowest for each.
Archie Miller- #49 avg (29, 37, 75, 53)
Anthony Grant- #106 avg (64, 88, 144, 115, 151, 128, 53)

57 spot difference after eliminating the outliers.

This is significant.
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  #51  
Old 01-07-2018, 06:58 AM
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It's hard out here on a coach these days (unless it's not):

DDN:

https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/sp...ef=cbTopWidget

“That’s the definition of insanity, right?” Grant asked rhetorically. “You keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. We’ve got to be able to learn that at some point, at some time, during the season.

ESPN:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...truggling-team

"Arizona coach Sean Miller after loss: 'I can't reach' players"

Now take that for DATA!
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ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

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Old 01-07-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
You really think advocating for Josh to get more touches is yelling just to yell?
Do you really think Grant isn't advocating for Josh to get more touches?

Grant is obviously at his wits end with this team. It came through in the interview today. He obviously feels that he's gotta do something different to make them play the way he wants.

Like Chris R says, you can't bench the whole team for not following the game plan.

Also, most teams are going to have a group of interior guys with much higher FG% that will help balance the numbers. That's how percentages work.

You are yelling just to yell.
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post

What do all these numbers tell us? Anthony Grant deserves no serious evaluation until he has four recruiting seasons under his Flyer belt with his own kids recruited to his own personality, style, and skill set. In the meantime, all he can do is do his best with the pieces he was given. Some nights (SBU) it will work. Others (UMass) it will be a banana peel.
if AG was walking into a situation like Oliver Purnell walked into then I would buy the four recruiting class line. Would any Xavier fan or administrator say a new coach there needed 4 years to judge them? Butler? VCU?

Plenty of guys have won with guys they didn't recruit. Many coaches have been successful quickly

With transfers & grad transfers, programs can be built faster than ever today. Dayton is far and way the class of the league in facilities, resources, fan support and intangibles.

The problems right now are beyond having his guys, inexperience or talented enough players.

We know AG is a deficient offensive coach because he lost his job. No one has contested his recruiting or defensive ability at Alabama. I think there's credible evidence that Bama struggled offensively during his tenure, especially against the better opponents on their schedule. The idea that he struggled on offense there isn't a conspiracy theory invented on a Dayton message board.
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  #54  
Old 01-07-2018, 10:10 AM
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So how many guys do we have to feed in the post? One. Josh is a great talent, maybe the best shooter around the basket since Velvet, and inch for inch a great rebounder. Josh has his physical limitations. He is small for a center and does not have long arms. When a passer looks at him posting either on the blocks or up high, his arms are not a big target. Are there many times our guys do not even look there, sure, but we do not have Steve down their posting up. Grant may have to encourage more attempts, which will result in more turnovers. Can we accept that?
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:40 AM
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A lot of interesting perspectives. In no order of significance:

Poor roster
Rebuilding
Game and situational management
Statistical analysis to support a perspective
Coaching experience vs. expectations


First, we have talent. If you disagree...see the Bonnie game. This team has talent. All teams have weaknesses, what is done to mitigate them is what is important.

Second, statistics are very valuable....when used in application of strategy.

Third, what many of us don't know, is what details are being taught. (See entry pass discussion). On a related note, I remember seeing Svaboda use a bounce pass, and it might have been the only one of the game by our boys in white. Success is always about details.

Fourth, this offense is dependent on guard penetration and pick and roll recognition. If you were the coach, installing this offense with the level of experience returning, do you:

A) stick to you philosophy firmly, and take the bumpy ride?
B) adjust to your roster?

Fifth, a lot of conversations about O. It's the D that needs work.

Finally, a team takes on its coach's personality, always. It is inescapable. What remains to be seen (by the coaches, admin, and fans), is what is expected vs. what is accepted. Similar but very different words. In many ways, I think that mindset is what separates major programs from mid majors.
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Archie Miller- #61 avg (29, 28, 37, 75, 146, 53)
Anthony Grant- #102 avg (18, 157, 64, 88, 144, 115, 151, 128, 53)

41 spot difference.

Eliminate the highest and lowest for each.
Archie Miller- #49 avg (29, 37, 75, 53)
Anthony Grant- #106 avg (64, 88, 144, 115, 151, 128, 53)

57 spot difference after eliminating the outliers.

This is significant.
You cannot eliminate outliers. They are part of the data set, part of the record. Once you start cherrypicking, the data loses all integrity. Otherwise Grants defensive #s would look even better than Archies.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
You're making a claim that there is a body of work to suggest Anthony Grant is a deficient offensive coach compared to other coaches or other alternatives. I dont know if you were making the comparison to Archie Miller, but any perfunctory claim deserves some scrutiny. After all, facts don't care about feelings.

So I took the time to actually do the math by looking up the data for every season coached by both gentlemen entering 2017-18, summed up their numbers, and created an average nationally ranking based on those numbers. I feel its a fair comparison because Archie Miller has been routinely labeled on this forum as one of the best offensive coaching minds in college basketball.

Per Ken Pomeroy's average national rankings of Adjusted Offensive Efficiency Ratings entering this season, this is how they averaged out:

Archie Miller: #61 (6 seasons)
Anthony Grant: #85 (9 seasons)

The observation suggested Anthony Grant has a coaching deficiency on the offensive end of the court. Considering there are 351 Division I programs, a delta of 24 ranking positions between the average AOE national ranking between these two coaches is approximately 6.8% of the entire Division I pool.

Considering average FT% contains at least a 6.8% delta from any one game to the next -- let alone almost every other trackable statistic in college basketball -- I consider the Adjusted Offensive Efficiency delta between these two coaches to be too statistically irrelevant to explain away your concerns. That is the only proof I see. Your concerns may be legitimate, but your reasons are misplaced.

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I think all our concerns are warranted, thank you. I don't think my reason is misplaced, because my meaning is that all the people who are at a rush to push their fact-finding-mission by way of cherry-picked stats, in this instance, is akin to putting earrings on a sow.
If you're saying that the model that supports deflected stats will stand longer than what my eyes tell me, well, we'll just have to see how it plays out..
I haven't said Archie was the best offensive guru, and if others have claimed that I must've missed reading.
What I see is AG's guys have little strength as a unit compared to their individual merits. Sporadic play and indecisiveness are keeping the team from taking steps forward.
I saw some evidence of the same traits in Archie's early efforts. I don't know what went on there but it was apparent Miller wasn't getting them to climb aboard. But after that happened the program began an upward climb to relevance that in my opinion would still be moving up if things hadn't changed.

If things hadn't changed, and the world hadn't lost Steve, UD would be in high cotton right now.
Posters that are pointing out red flags are getting a barrage of stats thrown their way that won't mean anything in a couple years if AG fails. It's a good reason why statisticians aren't revered as profits, but called on when they're needed. For there's a stat to back almost every argument.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
First, we have talent. If you disagree...see the Bonnie game. This team has talent
Cognitive dissonance. Take one performance out of an entire pool of outcomes to suggest talent, then ignore all other outcomes suggesting otherwise.

Kostas is a talented 3pt shooter. If you disagree, see the time he made one.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
So how many guys do we have to feed in the post? One. Josh is a great talent, maybe the best shooter around the basket since Velvet, and inch for inch a great rebounder. Josh has his physical limitations. He is small for a center and does not have long arms. When a passer looks at him posting either on the blocks or up high, his arms are not a big target. Are there many times our guys do not even look there, sure, but we do not have Steve down their posting up. Grant may have to encourage more attempts, which will result in more turnovers. Can we accept that?
Incorrect. We actually have 3. XW posted his guy up and got a baby hook bucket. He could have done that all day. Love that he found his shot on the perimeter. But we could actually use some presence down low. AG should be using X in better ways. We also have Kostas, who when given some space actually has some post up moves. He did it twice yesterday and got to the freethrow line both times. And we have an all a10 caliber guy who shoots 69% from the field. What we're doing, particularly when we're desperately in need of a basket, is baffling.

The next question is that if you guys think our options down low are insufficient, then what else do we have? Three point shooting? If that's the case, why was our best three point shooter sitting on the bench the last 13 minutes of the game when he had 10 points and had already made two threes in the game?

Do we have dribble penetration? Not that i can see. The only guys who really broke down the defense were crutcher and jordan pumpfaking a three and penetrating. Other than that it's a bunch of lateral passes and an outside shot from marginal shooters like landers and crutcher who put up 11 of them and made only 2. Is that where our offense should be coming from?

Do we have anyone who can consistently create their own shot other than Josh down low posting up? I'm not sure we really do.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
You cannot eliminate outliers. They are part of the data set, part of the record. Once you start cherrypicking, the data loses all integrity. Otherwise Grants defensive #s would look even better than Archies.
I eliminated the highest and lowest year for each coach to find a truncated mean. This is a very common statistical approach to find central tendency in a set of data. This wasn't cherry picking.

Using a simple average, it is still a 41 spot difference, not 24. Data really loses it integrity when it is not correct.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Avid Flyer View Post
Grant called the play with 19 secs left. Get the ball into the post to Josh, he was open but they never got him the ball. Draw up all the plays you want but if they don't execute the plan like today it's on the players.
Where was that play most of the game? Get the big guy the **** ball. Why are we only seeing isolation plays for josh in the last :19 of the game?

Yes, the players failed on the last :19 seconds. AG failed the previous 19:41 minutes.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:48 PM
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Also, i don't remember anyone ever claiming that Archie was a top tier offensive coach. Ever. But i do think he devised a system that got his players with various levels of skill some good opportunities to get to the hoop.

His sets involved threats to cut back door. Slip screens. A north south element in addition to the east west. AG's is all east west. In fact, when our wings get the ball, they're often not even looking at or considering attacking the hoop. Their eyes are fixed on the top of the key to get the ball back there. There were at least three times Trey had an opening to dribble with his left hand toward the baseline and go to the hoop and the thought never crossed his mind. (This tendency played itself out on the last play as well. Trey just didn't really look toward the hoop or wait for Josh. He had tunnel vision to get the ball back to the top of the key. Rinse and repeat.)

Additionally, if I'm josh, it seems less and less worth it to bust your butt to get open or do a proper roll when no one is looking for you. We simply have a series of perimeter players who pass the ball to each other 25 feet from the basket and shoot threes----and half those guys can't even shoot threes very well (trey, crutcher, and for most of the season XW). What Bobby Wherli described is completely correct. It's so easy to defend. Which is why we turned the ball over twice in the first minute of the first half. Defenses don't get burned by overplaying us because there's no threat to the basket. No back cuts. No real threat to dish to the player who is rolling.

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Old 01-07-2018, 01:24 PM
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I think Archie is a good offensive coach, however you still have to have the horses. His offenses were weak the the last two years, primarily due to the offensive limitations of players like Davis and Pollard. Did that make him a worse offensive coach? No he knew the players had a great defensive mind set and he leveraged that. You can’t transform Kyle Davis into Kyrie Irving. (Irving could learn about defense from Kyle).

Archie has lots of motion in his offense. He also has a skill development program. If you can shoot and dribble, your offense becomes better and harder to defend.

This year’s team lacks offensive skills in a number of areas.

Btw. I am very concerned about this year’s team. I am just ready to throw Anthony under the bus and fire him. It is too early to tell, especially with the weaknesses and inconsitency of this team. It is his job to make this team better, it feels like putting a bow tie on a pig. Still not pretty.

If there is not significant improvement next year or the year after, the administration should act. This year no.
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
Cognitive dissonance. Take one performance out of an entire pool of outcomes to suggest talent, then ignore all other outcomes suggesting otherwise.

Kostas is a talented 3pt shooter. If you disagree, see the time he made one.
Sorry, but you're cherry picking. Didn't want to write a 12,000 word essay. I sighted one example, there are plenty of other examples...1st half against St. Mary's, Mississippi St 2nd half. Each of the freshman have flashed talent. To acknowledge the other side, there's been plenty of head scratching moments of poor play. There are plenty of posts picking the good and bad apart. Could this team be undefeated? Maybe not. But certainly there have been 3-4 potential wins left on the table.

To punt this year as "rebuilding" is the mindset that must be eliminated if the University desires to be consistently on the national stage.

To me the question remains as to what the program is....

An occasional moment of glory that funds the balance of programs, or a consistent competitor in the top 25?

Most people on the board express what they "expect". What we don't know is what the University will "accept".
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  #65  
Old 01-08-2018, 08:50 AM
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To All FLyer Fan Coaches Who Paid for a Ticket or Watched on TV

What would you have done differently on the final Dayton possession against UMASS? Coming out of a time out he correctly thought UMASS would play man "D" which they did. He put the ball in the hands of his senior leading scorer and best dribble penetrator which set up a drive to the basket with Josh Cunningham available for for a dish if available. JC was guarded and Darrell missed the layup. Clearly a good defensive play by the opponent and a failed execution of the right play by the Flyers. If AG's coaching is to be judged on this play he passed the test. Kudos to UMASS. Bring on Richmond. Go Flyers! I'll bet Darrell makes the next one that comes his way.
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
What would you have done differently on the final Dayton possession against UMASS? Coming out of a time out he correctly thought UMASS would play man "D" which they did. He put the ball in the hands of his senior leading scorer and best dribble penetrator which set up a drive to the basket with Josh Cunningham available for for a dish if available. JC was guarded and Darrell missed the layup. Clearly a good defensive play by the opponent and a failed execution of the right play by the Flyers. If AG's coaching is to be judged on this play he passed the test. Kudos to UMASS. Bring on Richmond. Go Flyers! I'll bet Darrell makes the next one that comes his way.
I don't know that anyone is questioning the last call. Execution perhaps. But everyone knows the game wasn't lost on the last play of the game. It was lost, as usual, the last few minutes of the first half and the first few minutes of the second half.
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Alberto Strasse View Post
I'll bet Darrell makes the next one that comes his way.
Based on what? Did I miss where he's proven himself as a closer? Remember that time we were tied up with a certain team with less than 20 seconds to play? All we had to do was NOT turn the ball over to at least go to OT? Remember how that ended? A certain someone booted the ball to allow an opposing score with less than a second left. We lost.

There have been several late-game, critical errors by DD this season.

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/spo...ZPw0h0uqWpT7N/

By the way, there was a comment earlier about our offensive shooting percentage. There is a TON more to offense than that.

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Old 01-08-2018, 12:52 PM
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Not every player gets it right at end of game every time. Everyone talks about the great shot by Vee to beat Ohio State, but he botched a couple of end of game plays earlier in that same season. I saw him not make a play at the end of Ole Miss game. Devin Oliver made up for it.
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Old 01-08-2018, 01:00 PM
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Mo Egger who is on 700 WLW and ESPN1530 in Cincy and is a UD grad summed up my feelings in his blog today where he mentions some area college basketball teams.

https://espn1530.iheart.com/featured...son-happening/

"Anthony Grant of Dayton is the early frontrunner for Coach That Makes Me Scream Mean Things At The TV Of The Year."
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bcross View Post
Archie Miller- #61 avg (29, 28, 37, 75, 146, 53)
Anthony Grant- #102 avg (18, 157, 64, 88, 144, 115, 151, 128, 53)
I wanted to post that this AOE # is correct and mine was not as I fat fingered a year by mistake and unwittingly transposed a digit on my phone calc. Was not in any way to purposely mislead. Appears my other numbers were accurate.

I could easily ignore this but being accurate matters and when you post inaccurate information you should call yourself out on it.

It doesnt change my opinions on the overall discussion as the combined offensive and defensive efficiency numbers for these coaches are in aggregate so similar:

Archie Miller: AOE: 61.3 ADE: 77.5 = 138.8
Anthony Grant: AOE: 102 ADE: 49.2 = 151.2

Is there a difference? Yes? Is it significant? Very marginal. "Special teams" could explain some of this. Home court value, SOS, injuries, luck factor. I do not see these numbers in any way proving Grant can't coach. What they seem to suggest is Miller is a better offensive coach, and Grant is a better defensive coach (which we already knew). If anything, the numbers of both coaches tell me neither were/are good enough to reach a Final Four with an honest team (no big breaks, bracket implosions etc).

Worth noting that UD is 3rd in the A10 in FG% (.460), .004 behind league leading Rhode Island (.464). However, UD is 12th out of 14 teams in EFG%-D. Grant's historical strengths have been entirely flipped this season.

Why is that? Why is he coaching the offense effectively, yet struggling with his strength -- a strength even higher rated than Archie?
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:00 PM
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I've enjoyed and appreciate all the data gathering and statistical analysis done by the folks on this board.

Having said that, the one intangible that is guaranteed: AG will put 500% more effort into correcting the flaws than his predecessors...combined. This is not only his team, but his school.

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Old 01-08-2018, 03:24 PM
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how or where did the disconnect come from the statistics & what the media/fans perceived about AGs offense
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Old 01-08-2018, 04:29 PM
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I want to point out that Archie was a better offensive coach when he had better offensive players and a better defensive coach when he had better defensive players. Archie's first two years had some of the worst UD defense I had ever seen. The last two years were some of the best UD defense I ever saw. Meanwhile, the last two years the offense struggled especially against good defensive teams like Syracuse and Wichita State.

Yes, players have nothing to do with it. It is all coaching.
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:44 PM
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There are many reasons for why we are seeing what they are seeing....it isn't black and white and they sure as hell aren't excuses.

The last play of the game...Trey didn't execute the entry pass. Josh was wide open. There are no other options as we don't really have any off the bounce, clutch, guys that I would want having the ball other than Cunningham.

Want to watch something that explains quite a bit...the horrific man to man defense. That isn't all on the coach as much as it is on the players. I pray that AG coaches them proper help side defense that is a staple of the game from the 3rd grade on. We got chewed up in man. I will be critical of AG going back to man from the zone...but some of that was lineup specific. If AG isn't teaching proper help D, then we have our answer as to his abilities if he can't even do that. I find that hard to believe.

Outside of the starting 5, XW was the only one that held serve. This team has a combo of 5 players that actually are serviceable during any one game. Sometimes the 5 start, sometimes they don't. Svoboda? Nope. Crosby? Nope. XW? Hopefully his production makes an up tick.

So...guards aren't getting the ball in the post. Who in the hell gets subbed in? Kid playing the sax in the band? The intramural guy in the 3rd row that is 14 Natty's deep? With the lineup deficiencies on this team, parking a guy on the bench for effort is a good decision. Parking a guy on the bench for lack of execution, not a good decision. Lack of effort trumps lack of execution. Lack of effort earns the bench in front of lack of execution.

There are many things that we can all not be happy with to include player performance, execution, AG's system, etc. What I can be sure of is that lineups should be based on effort and not simply execution. I don't like AG's system. But given that system, the lack of execution and defensive effort is more concerning.
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:30 PM
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Anyone read David Jablonski's article in today's DDN? "Cunningham seems to be key for Flyers." Too bad the message isn't getting to whomever the other four players are who happen to be in the game at any given time!

Xeyrius Williams said, "I think we could have used him way earlier." "They were trying to switch a lot." "Getting him in there with mismatches and things like that, they were undersized. We probably attacked it too late." Ya think so!!!

The game plan in the second half should have been to continuously have Josh post up inside and go inside to him every time down the court. If the shots not there then pass it back out on the perimeter and start over. Instead, we passed it around the perimeter until there was a turnover. Defense, or lack thereof especially on Pipkens, cost us the game but with Josh scoring 20 points or more we would have won going away by at least 10!
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I want to point out that Archie was a better offensive coach when he had better offensive players and a better defensive coach when he had better defensive players. Archie's first two years had some of the worst UD defense I had ever seen. The last two years were some of the best UD defense I ever saw. Meanwhile, the last two years the offense struggled especially against good defensive teams like Syracuse and Wichita State.

Yes, players have nothing to do with it. It is all coaching.

No one is saying it is ALL coaching. Relax. We could back and forth tearing down strawmen. Coaching and talent are both factors. Over time you can start to draw conclusions on how big a factor that coaching plays in it.

In BG's 8 years here, we only ranked in the Top-100 in AOE 3 times, with the highest being at #51 in 2008. In his final season we ranked #137. The next season, in Archie's first year we ranked #29. The defense flipped from #77 to #160. Those changes have almost everything to do with the change in coaching.

The issues with this year's offense are in part talent/experience and Grant's offense. Given his coaching history, this isn't an issue that is simply going to away under Grant.
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
I want to point out that Archie was a better offensive coach when he had better offensive players and a better defensive coach when he had better defensive players. Archie's first two years had some of the worst UD defense I had ever seen. The last two years were some of the best UD defense I ever saw. Meanwhile, the last two years the offense struggled especially against good defensive teams like Syracuse and Wichita State.

Yes, players have nothing to do with it. It is all coaching.
So, as the team matured the offense deteriorated? Not picking on you, but I don't recall hearing this argument. Get it - it's not the x & o's , it's the Jims and Joes. Be careful, you'll be criticized for claiming Coach K & Cal are only successful due to their recruiting ability.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
it's the Jims and Joes. Be careful, you'll be criticized for claiming Coach K & Cal are only successful due to their recruiting ability.
I would say that some of those guys in the category of K and Cal are better recruiters than coaches.

Their coaching job becomes really easy when you have nothing but first round draft picks coming in the door.

STF isn't leaning one way or another. The lack of results this season are more personnel related than coaching related. Probably 70/30. Nothing Figgie-esque about that number. I witnessed many more personnel failures than coaching failures and that is even in an offensive system that I don't care for at this point.

Calapari and Coach K aren't running the tables with the current UD roster any more than AG can. 2 game difference maybe? That isn't a whole bunch in the scheme of things.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:43 AM
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The results this year are 90% personnel. In our Two best offensive games . Bonnie and Georgia St Josh had 5 and 9 shots. He shot 5 times against Bonnie and we won easy and scored easy. They are trying to get the ball to Josh, but he is not a post up player , more of poor mans Dennis Rodman hung around and put the junk back in. Trey completely missed him on Sat. Young team that needs a few more players and Grant will look much better. This team never gets blown out, cant say the same this year for Archie...His brother or even Izzo on Sunday. Play hard on D we will compete this year. Need a new roster. A couple of these kids will help, but just watch McKinnley Wright play and you will see what NEXT LEVEL is about..... Players.....
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:08 AM
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AM's offensive numbers benefited from 3+ years of some of the best point guard play ever at UD. Remember how much the O stagnated when SS was out of the game. This year's O would be much better with consistently even mediocre point guard play. Our PG play this year is sub par and that drags everything down with it. SS would find a way to get the ball to Cunningham.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CJ2etc View Post
AM's offensive numbers benefited from 3+ years of some of the best point guard play ever at UD. Remember how much the O stagnated when SS was out of the game. This year's O would be much better with consistently even mediocre point guard play. Our PG play this year is sub par and that drags everything down with it. SS would find a way to get the ball to Cunningham.
Every game that SS started in his career we seemed to have the lead the majority of the time and usually won. When AM took him out for a short break or extended periods of time to give John Crosby playing time we usually took a step backward or there was a shift in momentum!

Every year in late September or early October when all the publications come out I usually buy the one that has the Flyers rated the highest in the A-10 predictions. This year I got Athlon Sports College Basketball 2017-18 preview because they predicted us fourth behind Rhode Island, VCU and St. Bonaventure. So far we have defeated #3 but lost to #12 and #13 (UMass and Duquesne). The postseason prediction was for the NIT and things need to change fast for that to come true!

They hit the nail on the head when they spoke about our backcourt. They said, "It's thin and unproven."

In their FINAL ANALYSIS they stated, "Grant has no idea whether he has an NCAA Tournament team, an NIT team or one that won't make the postseason at all. He's not alone with his lack of feel for this group. Miller set a high standard the last few years in Dayton, but diehard Flyer fans will need to be realistic and patient after losing four players who helped set that standard."
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:21 PM
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Sorry Chris

Originally Posted by Ready Action View Post
It's hard out here on a coach these days (unless it's not):

DDN:

https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/sp...ef=cbTopWidget

“That’s the definition of insanity, right?” Grant asked rhetorically. “You keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. We’ve got to be able to learn that at some point, at some time, during the season.

ESPN:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...truggling-team

"Arizona coach Sean Miller after loss: 'I can't reach' players"

Now take that for DATA!
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
You have to spend a large part of your time running this web site (great job by the way) so your time commenting as a member is limited I am sure, but does not result in limited quality. I am always happy that I take the time to read your comments as they are concise, your views well thought out and not just "off the cuff".

This thread is so typical of a handful of posters who are so negative that my time is better spent with less time reading their "knowledgeable and expert opinions" than sifting out the REAL nuggets like Brooks Hall who have insights from attending practices and having play well at this level.

One comment, it may take more than 3-4 years to see how AG is doing since his recruiting will be quite difficult this year based on the likely poor record of this year's team. AM left the cupboard more than just a little bare!!! Returning quantity/experisnce was so weak and number of new players was so high ... with recruiting numbers so high in yr 2 that the team results this yr will put a real strain on recruiting. Of course, most naysayers think we are a UNC or Kansas that can just reload with 4-5 star recruits on the bench awaiting their turn. (did anyone see them on the bench last year or recruits matching the outgoing seniors? ... of course not!). Yep, AG is one of our own, so a I am willing to cut him quite a bit of slack with the other intangibles that he brings.
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by skip69 View Post
Yep, AG is one of our own, so a I am willing to cut him quite a bit of slack with the other intangibles that he brings.
This terrifies me and was my fear on March 30th.
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:21 PM
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So On March 30th, if they pick a different coach and doesn't bring in a kid like Jalen Crutcher late to help out...How are we doing??? If the coach of one month doesnt go out and get 4 star recruit like Cohill..how does next year look so far? I know for a fact that Cohils l mom and he both wanted Grant to coach him. Pretty good get! So I have watched Josh and DD really improve this year. Jalen not bad for late and thin and getting better and Jordan Davis from Nov to know has improved. Look we need better players what he has done so far is pretty darn good. In this crap Conference if he has Sam/Ryan I bet we are undefeated in conference play. The margin is that close. Grant knows he needs to go next level and I think we will see roster changes and a very aggressive Dayton team next year. So close your eyes and imagine last year it the game winning shot and DD has the ball... You would Kill Archie! That's what this guy has going.. Trey Missed Josh and no one else wanted the ball.
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:52 PM
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Crash

Originally Posted by C-time View Post
This terrifies me and was my fear on March 30th.
"Terrified" would be in the car you are driving in a 10 car pileup on I75!!!
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by skip69 View Post
"Terrified" would be in the car you are driving in a 10 car pileup on I75!!!
You want me to die in a car wreck. Sweet.

But let me clarify my point. First of all despite my criticisms of AG I hope he succeeds and there is no reason to have a coaching search thread in 2021.

My #1 concern/fear with the hire when it happened was that because AG is an alum and great person he would get an extra 2 or 3 years leeway that another coach might not have gotten which would lead to an even more difficult rebuild for the next coach.

Your post just confirmed my concern that there would be a portion of the fanbase that would have that attitude.
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by flybye View Post
So On March 30th, if they pick a different coach and doesn't bring in a kid like Jalen Crutcher late to help out
If Ostrom had gotten the job McKinley Wright (33mpg, 16.2ppg, 5.2apg at Colorado) is most likely still here and Naz Carter (15mpg & 4.9ppg at Washington) probably is too. Now who knows how good he would have been as a head coach but at least UD could have tried to pull a Xavier/Butler.

Originally Posted by flybye View Post
Grant knows he needs to go next level and I think we will see roster changes and a very aggressive Dayton team next year.
I hope you are right about this.
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
You want me to die in a car wreck. Sweet.

But let me clarify my point. First of all despite my criticisms of AG I hope he succeeds and there is no reason to have a coaching search thread in 2021.

My #1 concern/fear with the hire when it happened was that because AG is an alum and great person he would get an extra 2 or 3 years leeway that another coach might not have gotten which would lead to an even more difficult rebuild for the next coach.

Your post just confirmed my concern that there would be a portion of the fanbase that would have that attitude.
I believe strongly this administration will pull the plug on any coach if they are not performing.

I think that higher AG simply because he is an alumni is overrated. It factored in, but was not the top factor.
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  #89  
Old 01-09-2018, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by skip69 View Post
You have to spend a large part of your time running this web site (great job by the way) so your time commenting as a member is limited I am sure, but does not result in limited quality. I am always happy that I take the time to read your comments as they are concise, your views well thought out and not just "off the cuff".

This thread is so typical of a handful of posters who are so negative that my time is better spent with less time reading their "knowledgeable and expert opinions" than sifting out the REAL nuggets like Brooks Hall who have insights from attending practices and having play well at this level.

One comment, it may take more than 3-4 years to see how AG is doing since his recruiting will be quite difficult this year based on the likely poor record of this year's team. AM left the cupboard more than just a little bare!!! Returning quantity/experisnce was so weak and number of new players was so high ... with recruiting numbers so high in yr 2 that the team results this yr will put a real strain on recruiting. Of course, most naysayers think we are a UNC or Kansas that can just reload with 4-5 star recruits on the bench awaiting their turn. (did anyone see them on the bench last year or recruits matching the outgoing seniors? ... of course not!). Yep, AG is one of our own, so a I am willing to cut him quite a bit of slack with the other intangibles that he brings.
Butler & Xavier can reload with 2-3 star guys on their bench. I don't like denigrating players but Archie missed on some recruits at the end of his tenure.

That said I think more than 3-4 years is ridiculous. If there's guys that are giving poor effort or can't contribute it might be time for a mutual separation. JUCO (Andy Farrell has experience here), transfers, grad transfers out there that can get things move quickly
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by C-time View Post
You want me to die in a car wreck. Sweet.
.
You missed my point. If you are terrified over such a relatively minor item, I would be terrified over what action you would take in a truely life alternating situation.
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