Could the A10 Pounce?

[hawkoooo]

I know this is a distasteful topic in some respects but hey, you have to feel for the schools left out of this whole shake up like Memphis, Wichita St, etc.

Is the A10 a desirable landing spot for the remaining prestigious basketball schools in the American? Could the A10 have the marbles to pull something like this off?

Imagine a press release tomorrow saying the A10 extends invites to Memphis, Wichita State, Temple, and SMU or Tulsa. Would any of them accept? Current A10 plus those four would be a very, very good league and much better than whatever is left of the American.

Please spare me the football talk. Many schools have proven it is easy to go independent (and build a good enough schedule to compete nationally if your program is capable) if the opportunity for greener pastures is there. Plus you've got 4 built-in games already. Discuss.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[flybye]

Really good post..keep an eye on WSU…..

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo I know this is a distasteful topic in some respects but hey, you have to feel for the schools left out of this whole shake up like Memphis, Wichita St, etc. Is the A10 a desirable landing spot for the remaining prestigious basketball schools in the American? Could the A10 have the marbles to pull something like this off? Imagine a press release tomorrow saying the A10 extends invites to Memphis, Wichita State, Temple, and SMU or Tulsa. Would any of them accept? Current A10 plus those four would be a very, very good league and much better than whatever is left of the American. Please spare me the football talk. Many schools have proven it is easy to go independent (and build a good enough schedule to compete nationally if your program is capable) if the opportunity for greener pastures is there. Plus you've got 4 built-in games already. Discuss.

No, because while you want to spare the football talk, you can't. Those schools will do what is best for football first. Wichita State would be the only viable option. The others are committed to football. And while BYU and ND can schedule as an independent and be successful, schools like UConn, UMass and New Mexico State cannot. Temple, Tulsa, SMU, and Memphis are closer to UMASS and UConn than ND and BYU.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[Buckleyma]

I cannot imagine SMU joining a basketball oriented conference. I can imagine SMU trying to join the Big 12 to pump up their football presence. SMU is still stinging from their Football NCAA death penalties from the past.
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[N2663R]

Originally Posted by m21eagle45 No, because while you want to spare the football talk, you can't. Those schools will do what is best for football first. Wichita State would be the only viable option. The others are committed to football. And while BYU and ND can schedule as an independent and be successful, schools like UConn, UMass and New Mexico State cannot. Temple, Tulsa, SMU, and Memphis are closer to UMASS and UConn than ND and BYU.

I would agree with your football assessment on paper . . . but, I think the walls are closing in on these types of schools. Between Covid, conference realignments, athletic dept. financials, concussions, NIL, actual chance to win anything beyond a conference title - ever!, progressive college presidents and boards of trustees, etc., etc., it will only take one or two of these types of schools to fall before you see a mass exodus of teams from football. Basketball has a more level playing field among Div1 teams - barely, but enough. The supply of serviceable bball talent is still enough to give the top quarter of any league a chance to compete for a Final Four slot. In football you might have 20 teams - total - that can compete for a playoff spot. And expanding the playoffs to 8 teams does not change the equation. The A10 needs to be aggressively ready for anything . . . .

[Buckleyma]

Back in 1979 when Dayton de-emphasized football; that was a monumental decision. I find it hard to believe that any of these schools are ready for that type of backlash.
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[longtimefan]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo Please spare me the football talk. Many schools have proven it is easy to go independent (and build a good enough schedule to compete nationally if your program is capable) if the opportunity for greener pastures is there. Plus you've got 4 built-in games already. Discuss.

You say to discuss, but you also say not to discuss football, so I have nothing.

[UD62]

Question the "many" schools that have gone independent and been successful. I know of two, ND and BYU and it appears one will be going the B12. And as far as basketball teams going independent, that didn't work out real well for a school we all know and love.

[Buckleyma]

Wichita State university stopped playing collegiate division 1 football in 1986. So, I guess Wichita State could be a potential move to a basketball-centric conference.
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[Kansas City Flyer 99]

I think the American sticks around an adds some football schools like App State, Western Kentucky and Marshall.

North Texas and/or Charlotte could also be options.

If WSU decides to leave I can see them asking the Valley to come back.

	Charlotte CHARLOTTE UNC Charlotte is one of a generation of universities founded in metropolitan areas of the United States immediately after World War II in response to rising education demands generated by the war and its technology. Now a research intensive university, UNC Charlotte is the fourth largest of the 16 institutions within the University of North Carolina system and the largest institution in the Charlotte region. The university comprises seven professional colleges and currently offers 18 doctoral programs, 62 master’s degree programs and 90 bachelor’s degrees. More than 900 full-time faculty comprise the university’s academic departments and the 2007 fall enrollment exceeded 22,300 students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the 49ers.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by N2663R In football you might have 20 teams - total - that can compete for a playoff spot.

I think you're off by a factor of 2. And that's if they expand to an 8 team playoff.

The number that can actually win in any given year you're off by a factor of 4. And that 5th team has about 50:1 odds against.

[udisit19]

There is definitely an opportunity. What’s left of the AAC is not great, and the best teams want out. Memphis will remain but you know they will accept an invite to the Big 12 if it comes. I think that would hold true for SMU. Those have to be the best basketball programs in the AAC that aren’t Wichita St. The teams being mentioned to replace Cincy, Houston, and UCF are pretty weak. I can’t imagine Wichita State is truly excited about adding UAB or Marshall. I’ve seen Buffalo as an option, and they have had recent basketball success.

I find it hard to believe given the situation, Wichita St. couldn’t be convinced to leave. It does feel like the Big East is their most logical landing point. And the MVC would be the 2nd most logical landing point. The A-10 simply has less of a prescience in the Midwest. If the 4 closest programs to Wichita are SLU, UD, DUQ, and St. Bonaventure, Wichita feels like a big geographic outlier.

However, if the A-10 could convince both Wichita St. and Loyola Chicago to jump to the A-10 at the same time, I think they may be able to make enough of a case.
The A-10 could have a West group with Dayton, SLU, Davidson, St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, Wichita St., and Loyola Chicago. Is there a better move the A-10 could make right now?
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	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo I think you're off by a factor of 2. And that's if they expand to an 8 team playoff. The number that can actually win in any given year you're off by a factor of 4. And that 5th team has about 50:1 odds against.

No, I think the original poster is about correct. Only about 34 teams with true national potential, and I was pretty generous with my 13 maybes IMO.

Teams with a legit shot to win the title:

01. Florida State
02. Miami of Florida
03. Clemson
04. Ohio State
05. Penn State
06. Michigan
07. Michigan State
08. Nebraska
09. Wisconsin
10. Oklahoma
11. Texas
12. Notre Dame
13. Boise State...MAYBE
14. Oregon
15. Southern Cal
16. Florida
17. Georgia
18. Tennessee
19. Alabama
20. Auburn
21. LSU

Teams that could maybe make an 8 team playoff:

01. Iowa
02. Purdue
03. NW
04. WV
05. Baylor
06. BYU
07. Cal
08. Stanford
09. Washington
10. TAMU
11. Cincinnati
12. Louisville
13. UCF

Editing the list of 13 maybes, lately it is more like just:

01. Cincinnati
02. Louisville
03. UCF maybe

So, maybe 24 teams with a legit 8 team playoff chance.

[hawkoooo]

This thread is pretty funny. Following football is the reason a lot of these schools are now in trouble. Yet the exact reason given for why they wouldn't join the A10 is...football.

At some point the desire to be in a football league is outweighed by your desire to be in a quality basketball (and all other sports) league. Don't believe me? Why didn't Temple leave sooner? Why didn't they join the MAC or Conference USA instead of waiting for the "Big East?" Why didn't UMass join the MAC for all sports instead of only playing football (while they were allowed)? Why did UConn leave the American?

Everyone in this thread who liked M21 Eagle's post (other than me) would also run the American into the ground. Hopefully the A10 leadership has more creativity and fortitude than the collective posters in this thread.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo This thread is pretty funny. Following football is the reason a lot of these schools are now in trouble. Yet the exact reason given for why they wouldn't join the A10 is...football. At some point the desire to be in a football league is outweighed by your desire to be in a quality basketball (and all other sports) league. Don't believe me? Why didn't Temple leave sooner? Why didn't they join the MAC or Conference USA instead of waiting for the "Big East?" Why didn't UMass join the MAC for all sports instead of only playing football (while they were allowed)? Why did UConn leave the American? Everyone in this thread who liked M21 Eagle's post (other than me) would also run the American into the ground. Hopefully the A10 leadership has more creativity and fortitude than the collective posters in this thread.

The reason Temple didn't leave sooner is because they were in the position to have the best of both worlds. Remember, when Temple played in the Big East for football, WVU, Rutgers, Cincinnati, Louisville, USF, UCF, Memphis were all in the Big East. Big East Football at that time was better than the current AAC. Also, the Big East had no interests in Temple for their other sports and the A10 was happy to have them. As soon as they had to make a decision driven by football they jumped to the AAC.

As for UMass and UConn, nobody wanted them for their football even after they both tried to double down to go big in football. They both finally made decisions off of basketball after they failed miserably at football. But look where they are located. Nobody in the Northeast cares about college football. I lived in Boston for 2 years and never heard anyone excited about a BC or UMass football game. The only time BC football gets mentioned is when they do their red bandana game each year.

Now look at the other AAC schools other than Wichita State. They are all southern schools where football drives the bus. College football in the south is a different animal. Those schools will go down trying to do what is best for football before they make a decision for basketball. That is just the way it is.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[Buckleyma]

Instagram reports that Cincinnati has submitted application to join Big 12 conference.
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[Flyerferd]

Fact is, football drives television revenue, which in turn drives conference alignment. All of the decent basketball schools that do not have a division one football team should come together in a conference. It’s a simple as that. Whether that means the Big East expands to 16, or another league of 12-ish schools forms, that will be determined later. Let’s do a quick exercise. Name some college football games that our appointment television for your average sports fan, as of let’s say, 2018 or later. I’ll start. Alabama/LSU, Ohio State/Michigan, Auburn/Alabama, Florida/Georgia, Ohio State/Penn State, Texas/Oklahoma, Half of Notre Dame‘s opponents, Oregon/USC, One or two Clemson games a year, Georgia/LSU, Georgia/Alabama, One or two Ohio State nonconference games a year. so, about 20 games a year.
Now, let’s play a game of appointment viewing for college basketball. I’ll start. Duke/North Carolina. That’s it. oh and by the way, they are on twice, with the possibility of playing a third time in the ACC tournament, when they have both more than likely locked up NCAA tournament spots. I love college basketball as much as anybody else on this board, but I’m using data to talk about the situation college basketball is in. Bottom line, saying in a post we should “take football out of the equation “is extremely disingenuous.
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[N2663R]

Clearly this issue is a calculus equation. If you want to know how it will pan out, just follow the money. Money has ruined every aspect of college sports - period. Title IX is a close second. Here’s a related/unrelated factoid - Northwestern spent a $1/4Billion+ for a football practice facility and they have a 5%? chance of ever getting a playoff spot. Ten years from now the ”Power 5-6” will break way from the NCAA and become a semi-pro league, at least for football. Rant over.

[Flyerferd]

Originally Posted by N2663R Clearly this issue is a calculus equation. If you want to know how it will pan out, just follow the money. Money has ruined every aspect of college sports - period. Title IX is a close second. Here’s a related/unrelated factoid - Northwestern spent a $1/4Billion+ for a football practice facility and they have a 5%? chance of ever getting a playoff spot. Ten years from now the ”Power 5-6” will break way from the NCAA and become a semi-pro league, at least for football. Rant over.

Yup. The ironic Thing that could save College basketball as we know it is Adam silver‘s hatred of it, and thus the expansion of the G league for players who want to just play ball after high school.
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[ud2]

Originally Posted by Buckleyma Instagram reports that Cincinnati has submitted application to join Big 12 conference. Posted via Mobile Device

Big 12 presidents expected to "rubber stamp" the applications of Cincinnati, Houston, UCF, and BYU, although BYU has not officially applied yet.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...ucf-on-friday/:

There is no indication that BYU has made a formal application to the conference yet, though there are talks that it could join the Big 12 earlier than other programs, perhaps as soon as 2022 due to its independent status.

[NCkevi]

I know Gonzaga has no problem scheduling strong non-con games but if BYU leaves they will struggle for "quality" games the 2nd half of the season

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ud2 No, I think the original poster is about correct. Only about 34 teams with true national potential, and I was pretty generous with my 13 maybes IMO. Teams with a legit shot to win the title: 01. Florida State 02. Miami of Florida 03. Clemson 04. Ohio State 05. Penn State 06. Michigan 07. Michigan State 08. Nebraska 09. Wisconsin 10. Oklahoma 11. Texas 12. Notre Dame 13. Boise State...MAYBE 14. Oregon 15. Southern Cal 16. Florida 17. Georgia 18. Tennessee 19. Alabama 20. Auburn 21. LSU Teams that could maybe make an 8 team playoff: 01. Iowa 02. Purdue 03. NW 04. WV 05. Baylor 06. BYU 07. Cal 08. Stanford 09. Washington 10. TAMU 11. Cincinnati 12. Louisville 13. UCF Editing the list of 13 maybes, lately it is more like just: 01. Cincinnati 02. Louisville 03. UCF maybe So, maybe 24 teams with a legit 8 team playoff chance.

The original full quote was "The supply of serviceable bball talent is still enough to give the top quarter of any league a chance to compete for a Final Four slot. In football you might have 20 teams - total - that can compete for a playoff spot. And expanding the playoffs to 8 teams does not change the equation."

I read that to mean ". . . in any given year for the major conferences" but probably should not have. My bad on that.

But to your list: There have been 13 different teams to win a national championship in the 22 years since the start of the BCS in 1998. That includes Tennessee in year 1, who is not in any way a contender, and likely won't be again for decades. Miami won 1, and USC won 2 ($$), but these schools also don't seem likely to rise from the ashes.

The rest of the list is basically the who's who of team who make the CFP each year, which started in 2014 and in the 7 years has been won by the same 4 teams, again just a simple who's who.

So for your list of 21 teams that have a "legit" shot at a national title, well, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Boise State, Tennessee....holy crap dude, stay off the drugs. Maybe 10 of those, and 5 of them probably can't win it once a generation.

[Gazoo]

Here are the teams who have made the CFP in the 7 years it has existed:

Alabama (6)
Clemson (6)
Oklahoma (4)
tOSU (4)
Notre Dame (2) - outscored by 44 points
LSU (1)
FSU (1) - lost to Oregon by 39
Oregon (1) - lost to tOSU by 22 points
Michigan State (1) - 38-0 drubbing
Washington (1) - #4 seed, lost to Alabama 24-7
Georgia (1)

There's really only a couple teams here in the world of haves and have nots.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Here are the teams who have made the CFP in the 7 years it has existed: Alabama (6) Clemson (6) Oklahoma (4) tOSU (4) Notre Dame (2) - outscored by 44 points LSU (1) FSU (1) - lost to Oregon by 39 Oregon (1) - lost to tOSU by 22 points Michigan State (1) - 38-0 drubbing Washington (1) - #4 seed, lost to Alabama 24-7 Georgia (1) There's really only a couple teams here in the world of haves and have nots.

Could college basketball be headed in the same direction? The Blue Blood have dominated the Final Four for some time, however non Blue Bloods like Butler, VCU, George Mason have made it to the Final Four. Winning the NCAA championship was another.

Many programs like UD, X and more aspire to reach the Final Four, not win it all because they they know the chances of winning those two games it super slim. The lone exception in recent years is Villanova.

[jack72]

Winning the basketball NCAA or getting invited to the football playoffs is not the end all to every school and fan. Many schools and fans are shooting for their conference championship, and in basketball making the 65 teams.

I have enjoyed UD basketball to the max for the last 54 years, and will if we do not make another tourney, and we have won zero NCAA titles. I know many people who live and die with Duke, NC, Purdue, AR, TX and UC football, despite no playoffs. Not only has money somewhat taken over the scene, but more so the hype by ESPN, etc distort the joy of the season, victories, playing the game and some fans' viewpoints.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo The original full quote was "The supply of serviceable bball talent is still enough to give the top quarter of any league a chance to compete for a Final Four slot. In football you might have 20 teams - total - that can compete for a playoff spot. And expanding the playoffs to 8 teams does not change the equation." I read that to mean ". . . in any given year for the major conferences" but probably should not have. My bad on that. But to your list: There have been 13 different teams to win a national championship in the 22 years since the start of the BCS in 1998. That includes Tennessee in year 1, who is not in any way a contender, and likely won't be again for decades. Miami won 1, and USC won 2 ($$), but these schools also don't seem likely to rise from the ashes. The rest of the list is basically the who's who of team who make the CFP each year, which started in 2014 and in the 7 years has been won by the same 4 teams, again just a simple who's who. So for your list of 21 teams that have a "legit" shot at a national title, well, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Boise State, Tennessee....holy crap dude, stay off the drugs. Maybe 10 of those, and 5 of them probably can't win it once a generation.

Nope, sorry, we are going to have to agree to disagree. And I am not on drugs, thank you very much.

I am looking at this from an all-time/100? years/however long college football has existed perspective.

So, from my list of 21 teams, I am asking could any of those 21 teams EVER win the title in today's day and age, and IMO the answer is yes to all of them.

Now, if we are only talking about the last 10 years or so, in terms of who really has a shot at the title, then I would significantly shorten my list.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo The original full quote was "The supply of serviceable bball talent is still enough to give the top quarter of any league a chance to compete for a Final Four slot. In football you might have 20 teams - total - that can compete for a playoff spot. And expanding the playoffs to 8 teams does not change the equation." I read that to mean ". . . in any given year for the major conferences" but probably should not have. My bad on that. But to your list: There have been 13 different teams to win a national championship in the 22 years since the start of the BCS in 1998. That includes Tennessee in year 1, who is not in any way a contender, and likely won't be again for decades. Miami won 1, and USC won 2 ($$), but these schools also don't seem likely to rise from the ashes. The rest of the list is basically the who's who of team who make the CFP each year, which started in 2014 and in the 7 years has been won by the same 4 teams, again just a simple who's who. So for your list of 21 teams that have a "legit" shot at a national title, well, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Boise State, Tennessee....holy crap dude, stay off the drugs. Maybe 10 of those, and 5 of them probably can't win it once a generation.

Things ebb and flo in college football, just like everything in life. Things can change.

Alabama has only relatively recently been elite with Saban. Pre-Saban, they were not dominant.

Georgia has only just recently taken a step up.

Ohio State has only been dominant with Jim Tressel and Urban Meyer and maybe Ryan Day, Day has only been there a short time, we will see.

Not so long ago, Michigan owned Ohio State. Michigan has been down for a unprecedentedly long time for them, they will likely return to prominence at some point.

Nebraska has also been down unprecedentedly for them, they will likely return to prominence at some point.

Wisconsin under Alvarez was solid.

USC has fallen back without Pete Carroll.

Florida State is down without Bobby Bowden.

Miami of Florida has been down for a long while.

Clemson is dominant only very recently.

Oklahoma is down.

Notre Dame is up.

LSU is up.

Florida and Tennessee are down.

Etc., etc.

Things can and do change. Everything ebbs and flows.

College football success seems to be heavily-dependent on the head coach.



If you are an Ohio State, Alabama, or Clemson fan, then enjoy these golden, good old glory days, because they may not last forever, one team being up means somebody else is down, and the teams that are down are trying desperately to right the ship and take you down. That is just the way things are.

And once you are down, it can take a long while to right the ship and get back on top.

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by ud2 Things ebb and flo in college football, just like everything in life. Things can change. Alabama has only relatively recently been elite with Saban. Pre-Saban, they were not dominant. . . . . . . . And once you are down, it can take a long while to right the ship and get back on top.

That's part of the reason "they" want to break away sooner rather than later. They have a good thing going, i.e. $$$$$$ and they have an opportunity to freeze out anything / anyone who will cut into the golden goose. They can handle all of the money themselves and eliminate weak conferences like the MAC and that pesky NCAA and their petty rules, etc. . . . . Follow the money!

[Flyerferd]

Originally Posted by N2663R That's part of the reason "they" want to break away sooner rather than later. They have a good thing going, i.e. $$$$$$ and they have an opportunity to freeze out anything / anyone who will cut into the golden goose. They can handle all of the money themselves and eliminate weak conferences like the MAC and that pesky NCAA and their petty rules, etc. . . . . Follow the money!

Add to that, live sports is the only thing that is now appointment television. If there’s a really important game on and you plan on watching it later, good luck avoiding social media, texts from friends, ESPN notifications, etc. networks will pay big money for those appointment television viewing eyeballs
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[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ud2 Nope, sorry, we are going to have to agree to disagree. And I am not on drugs, thank you very much. I am looking at this from an all-time/100? years/however long college football has existed perspective. So, from my list of 21 teams, I am asking could any of those 21 teams EVER win the title in today's day and age, and IMO the answer is yes to all of them. Now, if we are only talking about the last 10 years or so, in terms of who really has a shot at the title, then I would significantly shorten my list.

Yeah, Duke can't keep this up forever. Eventually LaSalle (1954) and San Francisco (55 & 56) will come around.

Unless....there's been a structural change.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo Yeah, Duke can't keep this up forever. Eventually LaSalle (1954) and San Francisco (55 & 56) will come around. Unless....there's been a structural change.

Huh? I never mentioned Duke, LaSalle, or SF. You are being extreme there trying to exaggerate what I said.

You discount the chances of Tennessee, Miami, and USC, we will just have to agree to disagree there. USC under Carroll had a very dominant run, I highly doubt they just shrivel up and die forever. You discount Nebraska and Notre Dame too.

Nebraska was a monster program under Osborne and a few years under fearless Frank Solich, I doubt they just shrivel up and die forever.

ND is on the rise with Kelly.

Boise State, as I mentioned, might be a stretch, but they were en fuego for a while there, nobody wanted to play them.

Tennessee is down, but their stadium is massive, their attendance is great, they have the resources to be a title contender.

Miami was also a monster program there for a long while, they produced countless high draft picks.

You say once in a generation for some of the teams, I didn't realize we were putting a time restraint on this.

I agree a lot of the 21 are once in a generation, but not too long ago Ohio State, Alabama, and Clemson, especially Clemson, would have all been considered once in a generation. Alabama had 1? title under Stallings in the 1990's. Alabama had 1 title from 1980 to 2008, they were a once in a generation program. They were not elite before Saban, Saban has taken them into the friggin stratosphere, few if any teams have been as good as Alabama is now, this Alabama run is possibly the greatest run in college football history all time.

Ohio State was not a title contender under Cooper or Bruce or even Woody Hayes for some of Hayes' time. OSU's last title pre-Tressel was all the way back in friggin 1968 under Hayes, that was about a 34? year draught from 1968 to 2002 iinm. Ohio State's current dominance is highly aberrant compared to a significant portion of their long term history. OSU was a once in a generation program from 1969 to 2001.

Clemson was nothing special at all 10 years ago, they were a total non-contending after thought. Heck, Clemson iinm has never been anything special other than maybe the last 5 years or so under Dabo.

The only teams that have been pretty consistent for the 10? or so years before Saban at Alabama were maybe USC, OSU, LSU, Miami, and Oklahoma. All 5 of those have struggled at some point in their history.

I think our point of disagreement is that college football IMO has a lot more turnover at the top than you think.

Right now, everybody on my list of 21 is once in a generation other than Alabama, Ohio State, Clemson, LSU, Florida State, Oklahoma, and USC. But, as I mentioned, Alabama, Ohio State, and Clemson were not always at the top, FSU is struggling without Bowden, Oklahoma's last 2 titles were in 1985 and 2000, USC is down without Carroll, so that leaves only 1 team, LSU, that has been real consistent. And even LSU won no titles in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, and 1990's, they were a totally once in a generation program until the 2000's. The point is that every program goes thru ups and downs.

So, I will agree that right now only about 7 programs have been real consistent, but college football has a long history of change at the top, and I think that change is likely to continue, the top teams right now may not dominate forever without some other teams being at the top.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ud2 Huh? I never mentioned Duke, LaSalle, or SF. You are being extreme there trying to exaggerate what I said.

"I am looking at this from an all-time/100? years/however long college football has existed perspective."

Dude it's exactly what you said. I just applied basketball instead of football.

It doesn't matter what happened 100 years ago in football or basketball. Dartmouth was probably great at one time. No mas.

The world is different. It's getting more and more narrow, with fewer teams likely to compete. It's not 100% impossible for Tennessee to win a national championship. It's just that it's not gonna happen ever again.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo "I am looking at this from an all-time/100? years/however long college football has existed perspective." Dude it's exactly what you said. I just applied basketball instead of football. It doesn't matter what happened 100 years ago in football or basketball. Dartmouth was probably great at one time. No mas. The world is different. It's getting more and more narrow, with fewer teams likely to compete. It's not 100% impossible for Tennessee to win a national championship. It's just that it's not gonna happen ever again.

When have Duke, LaSalle, and SF ever been good in football? Do LaSalle and SF even have football teams? I do not know what you are talking about. Please explain.

I disagree with your post. College football is more competitive than you are acknowledging IMO. The current domination by Alabama is highly unusual.

Things change, Miami, USC, Nebraska, etc. used to be at the top, not now, others knocked them off. There is constant change at the top, I think that change is likely to continue.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[UD62]

All this football discussion affects the op's original post how?

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by ud2 When have Duke, LaSalle, and SF ever been good in football? Do LaSalle and SF even have football teams? I do not know what you are talking about. Please explain. I disagree with your post. College football is more competitive than you are acknowledging IMO. The current domination by Alabama is highly unusual. Things change, Miami, USC, Nebraska, etc. used to be at the top, not now, others knocked them off. There is constant change at the top, I think that change is likely to continue.

If you can't understand that you made a comment about how football teams from 100 years ago are relevant to today, and that I simply pointed out that it's both false for football as well as basketball, then you're either intentionally being dense or are actually dense. So we're done here.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[NJFlyr71]

It doesn't matter in which sport you talk about.

What really really matters is the relevancy of the team to what has happened recently.

I can show you the Browns none existent relevancy from say 1996 to 2018 or so. They had nada, zip, nothin'

I can show you the NY Knicks that have been a mess until recently.

The Reds in baseball. They flutter about with playoffs hit and misses over the last 20 years.

If you are in the viewing area of the team you may be a fan of said team and watch, but the rest of the world may have better games to watch.

Fordham had the 'Blocks of Granite' way way long time ago and I'm sure at that time people listened on the radio or read the sports section of the paper in different parts of the country. But does anyone in the country care about Fordham (in any sport) except the die hard Ram Fans - NOW?

So a team in any sport can be relevant (outside the fan base) ONLY if they demonstrate some buzz. Ex: UD with Obi and #3 ranking.

The counter to that is the JB years where we were left in the middle of the night with no conference affiliation. Talk about NO relevancy that was the lowest of lows.

Some team in any sport can hold relevancy for long periods of time yet never WIN a championship. Yet they generate enough buzz to have people interested in an outcome.

So you don't have to WIN a Championship 3 out of 5 times but if you can generate some interest 3 of 5 or 3 of 4 years you can establish some relevance to the general public.

Some teams (DUKE, KANSAS, KY to name a few in BB) have relevance that captures the sports news when they win even when they lose people open up their app or newspaper and see what those teams did last night.

Look at ND they almost always get ranked in FB even with a loss or two (and lots of times I think their 'schedule' is really soft). It takes some awful games for them to become less relevant and unranked. I think the sports writers assume that ND is relevant only until it is painfully obvious that they are not.

It is possible to be a relevant team in the world of sports and is it possible to become less relevant in short order? 100% absolutely

I give you the Archie 4 NCAA years and pretty much the immediate years after he left until 2019 (no knock on AG).

So you don't HAVE to WIN Championships (although it would be nice sometimes ) to be relevant in the sporting world.

Can any team become relevant? Yes under the right circumstances (hire a super Coach, get a great player, have a supporting cast and a few surprises) and you can be relevant. The trouble is holding on to those characteristics over the long haul.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[UD62]

I'll give you my team the Detroit Lions. Relevant in the 50's. Irelivant for the last 60+years, but we are due any year now. Our hi point was one playoff win, against the Cowboys, 30 years ago.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by Gazoo If you can't understand that you made a comment about how football teams from 100 years ago are relevant to today, and that I simply pointed out that it's both false for football as well as basketball, then you're either intentionally being dense or are actually dense. So we're done here.

Not dense, thanks for unnecessarily insulting me again btw, real classy behavior there from you again...I ​thought we were talking about football, and you threw in an irrelevant basketball reference, so you're crossing streams threw me off.

Agree to disagree, all 21 of those schools have the budgets to compete, I will agree that some are more likely to be more consistent lately, but when you start saying stuff like TN, ND, Miami, NE, and USC are basically never going to win a title again, then I think you are off.

And I disagree with your point about basketball...Dayton 2 years ago got a likely 1 seed as did SDSU...Butler went to back-to-back title games from the Horizon League...VCU went to the final 4...George Mason made the final 4...Wichita State was a 1 seed...Houston from the AAC went to the final 4...Loyola made the final 4...Gonzaga is getting multiple 1 seeds/final 4 appearances. Sure, it is less common to make a splash from outside the p5/BE, but it does happen from time to time.

[N2663R]

So, back to the original question - could the A10 pounce? I don’t think so. I think it will be a matter of natural selection based on the specific school and the geographic location. Obviously, Temple has history with the A10, other teams have to look at the total landscape and see what makes sense for their program. The A10 will have to do the same. If there were a larger number of teams in play, it might give the A10 the balls to unload some of the bottom dwellers to strengthen the league overall - but I doubt it. That said, I wonder why the A10 has never worked to press the perennial bottom dwellers to make an effort to get better or get out.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Chris R]

There no sense expanding a league that first needs to contract.

[Gazoo]

Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 It doesn't matter in which sport you talk about. What really really matters is the relevancy of the team to what has happened recently. I can show you the Browns none existent relevancy from say 1996 to 2018 or so. They had nada, zip, nothin' I can show you the NY Knicks that have been a mess until recently. The Reds in baseball. They flutter about with playoffs hit and misses over the last 20 years. If you are in the viewing area of the team you may be a fan of said team and watch, but the rest of the world may have better games to watch. Fordham had the 'Blocks of Granite' way way long time ago and I'm sure at that time people listened on the radio or read the sports section of the paper in different parts of the country. But does anyone in the country care about Fordham (in any sport) except the die hard Ram Fans - NOW? So a team in any sport can be relevant (outside the fan base) ONLY if they demonstrate some buzz. Ex: UD with Obi and #3 ranking. The counter to that is the JB years where we were left in the middle of the night with no conference affiliation. Talk about NO relevancy that was the lowest of lows. Some team in any sport can hold relevancy for long periods of time yet never WIN a championship. Yet they generate enough buzz to have people interested in an outcome. So you don't have to WIN a Championship 3 out of 5 times but if you can generate some interest 3 of 5 or 3 of 4 years you can establish some relevance to the general public. Some teams (DUKE, KANSAS, KY to name a few in BB) have relevance that captures the sports news when they win even when they lose people open up their app or newspaper and see what those teams did last night. Look at ND they almost always get ranked in FB even with a loss or two (and lots of times I think their 'schedule' is really soft). It takes some awful games for them to become less relevant and unranked. I think the sports writers assume that ND is relevant only until it is painfully obvious that they are not. It is possible to be a relevant team in the world of sports and is it possible to become less relevant in short order? 100% absolutely I give you the Archie 4 NCAA years and pretty much the immediate years after he left until 2019 (no knock on AG). So you don't HAVE to WIN Championships (although it would be nice sometimes ) to be relevant in the sporting world. Can any team become relevant? Yes under the right circumstances (hire a super Coach, get a great player, have a supporting cast and a few surprises) and you can be relevant. The trouble is holding on to those characteristics over the long haul.

Pro sports in the US aren't a relevant comparison. You just need money.


College sports have fundamentally changed, even from just 10 years ago. The Butler example is barely relevant, but instead an object example of why it's not relevant anymore. Butler cared about basketball so guess what, it got pulled up to the BE. Lower level schools that don't care about basketball find it harder and harder as there is less and less money available to the non-power schools.



Then, it's even more concentrated at the top of the top.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[podcast411]

Originally Posted by Chris R There no sense expanding a league that first needs to contract.

What Chris said. We talk about expanding a league with multiple dead weight schools in the cellar.

There are many different scenarios that could play out - but I think the A-10 expanding is the least likely.

There are those we would all love - UD moves to Big East. File that one with getting caught in a revolving door with the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders. Nice to dream about - but not likely.

There is the other one we love to dream about - the National Catholic Basketball League - Like CYO but on lots of Steroids.

Then there is the National Best of the Rest league - that could form after all the Football schools and the Big East are done expanding. Basically take the best 4 to 6 schools from the A-10 that are left, Wichita State, Temple, Gonzaga, Belmont, and a few others and get a solid 12 to 16 team league - where ALL schools are fully committed to Basketball - and All commit to keeping a min Attendance level or risk being kicked out.

Or absolutely nothing could happen - and we are just in the A-10 yr after yr - trying our best to avoid NCAA dance card cancelling losses to Fordham and other basement dwellers.

Sadly - I think we are in the rinse and repeat cycle for that last option.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[m21eagle45]

Originally Posted by podcast411 What Chris said. We talk about expanding a league with multiple dead weight schools in the cellar. There are many different scenarios that could play out - but I think the A-10 expanding is the least likely. There are those we would all love - UD moves to Big East. File that one with getting caught in a revolving door with the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders. Nice to dream about - but not likely. There is the other one we love to dream about - the National Catholic Basketball League - Like CYO but on lots of Steroids. Then there is the National Best of the Rest league - that could form after all the Football schools and the Big East are done expanding. Basically take the best 4 to 6 schools from the A-10 that are left, Wichita State, Temple, Gonzaga, Belmont, and a few others and get a solid 12 to 16 team league - where ALL schools are fully committed to Basketball - and All commit to keeping a min Attendance level or risk being kicked out. Or absolutely nothing could happen - and we are just in the A-10 yr after yr - trying our best to avoid NCAA dance card cancelling losses to Fordham and other basement dwellers. Sadly - I think we are in the rinse and repeat cycle for that last option.

Gonzaga isn't going to join that league, just like they are not going to join the Big East. That is a pipe dream that won't happen. They are almost guaranteed a spot in the tournament by winning their current conference. Why would they risk that to play in a league that is almost entirely East Coast? Make absolutely no sense for them.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by Chris R There no sense expanding a league that first needs to contract.

I don't disagree with the sentiment here, but by this logic we never would've added Butler, VCU, Davidson, etc....

[John C.]

Everybody needs bottom fillers. Why do you think DePaul is in the Big East? Trust me, we would all love to get rid of the rumdums, but that just isn't going to happen. Other than what the Great Midwest did to UD, how many teams have been booted from any conference in the last 20-30 years.

[Chris R]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo I don't disagree with the sentiment here, but by this logic we never would've added Butler, VCU, Davidson, etc....

I believe they were replacing exit teams and/or the league was smaller then.

Originally Posted by John C. Everybody needs bottom fillers. Why do you think DePaul is in the Big East? Trust me, we would all love to get rid of the rumdums, but that just isn't going to happen. Other than what the Great Midwest did to UD, how many teams have been booted from any conference in the last 20-30 years.

I agree Mad Dog, but the Big East would not trade DePaul for Fordham, LaSalle, or GW......but the A10 would. Our rumdums are habitually worse than everyone else's rumdums.

I say all of this under the shadow of the Fordham debacle at Rose Hill last year, but even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[Bill McPeek]

[QUOTE=Chris R;668362]I believe they were replacing exit teams and/or the league was smaller then.

A-10 membership (from A-10 message board) since 2000

2000-01 (11 teams)
Membership change: exit Virginia Tech (for Big East), divisional play eliminated.
Dayton Flyers
Duquesne Dukes
Fordham Rams
George Washington Colonials
LaSalle Explorers
Massachusetts Minutemen
Rhode Island Rams
St. Bonaventure Bonnies
St. Joseph's Hawks
Temple Owls
Xavier Musketeers

2001-06 (12 teams)
Membership change: enter Richmond (from Colonial Athletic Association), divisional play re-established, St. Joseph's begins to spell out the "saint"

East Division:
Fordham Rams
Massachusetts Minutemen
Rhode Island Rams
Saint Joseph's Hawks
St. Bonaventure Bonnies
Temple Owls

West Division:
Dayton Flyers
Duquesne Dukes
George Washington Colonials
LaSalle Explorers
Richmond Spiders
Xavier Musketeers

2006-12 (14 teams)
Membership change: enter Charlotte and Saint Louis (both from Conference USA), divisional play eliminated.
Charlotte 49ers
Dayton Flyers
Duquesne Dukes
Fordham Rams
George Washington Colonials
LaSalle Explorers
Massachusetts Minutemen
Rhode Island Rams
Richmond Spiders
Saint Joseph's Hawks
Saint Louis Billikens
St. Bonaventure Bonnies
Temple Owls
Xavier Musketeers

2012-13 (16 teams)
Membership changes: enter Butler (from Horizon Conference f/k/a Midwest Collegiate Conference) and Virginia Commonwealth (from Colonial Athletic Association)
Butler Bulldogs
Charlotte 49ers
Dayton Flyers
Duquesne Dukes
Fordham Rams
George Washington Colonials
LaSalle Explorers
Massachusetts Minutemen
Rhode Island Rams
Richmond Spiders
Saint Joseph's Hawks
Saint Louis Billikens
St. Bonaventure Bonnies
Temple Owls
Virginia Commonwealth Rams
Xavier Musketeers

2013-14 (13 teams):
Membership changes: exit Temple (for American Athletic Conference), Charlotte (for Conference USA), Butler (for Big East) and Xavier (for Big East), enter George Mason (from Colonial Athletic Association)
Dayton Flyers
Duquesne Dukes
Fordham Rams
George Mason Patriots
George Washington Colonials
LaSalle Explorers
Massachusetts Minutemen
Rhode Island Rams
Richmond Spiders
Saint Joseph's Hawks
Saint Louis Billikens
St. Bonaventure Bonnies
Virginia Commonwealth Rams

2014- (14 teams):
Membership change: enter Davidson (from Southern Conference)
Davidson Wildcats
Dayton Flyers
Duquesne Dukes
Fordham Rams
George Mason Patriots
George Washington Colonials
LaSalle Explorers
Massachusetts Minutemen
Rhode Island Rams
Richmond Spiders
Saint Joseph's Hawks
Saint Louis Billikens
St. Bonaventure Bonnies
Virginia Commonwealth Rams

And I agree with Chris re: Fordham. Bottom line a loss to Fordham hurts more than a loss to DePaul.

	Chris Rieman CHRIS RIEMAN, PUBLISHER Founder and publisher of UDPride.com. Writer, photographer, videographer, coder, grip, comedian, auto aficionado, and lifelong Flyer fan.

	Xavier XAVIER MUSKETEERS Dayton's biggest rival dating back to the early 1900s. Founded in 1831, Xavier University is a Jesuit, Catholic university in Cincinnati, Ohio. Its three colleges offer 78 undergraduate majors, 43 minors and 11 graduate programs to 6,646 total students, including 3,961 undergraduates. The University is the sixth-oldest Catholic university in the nation and one of 28 Jesuit colleges and universities nationwide. Xavier's nickname is the Musketeers and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	St Bonaventure SAINT BONAVENTURE Founded in 1858, St. Bonaventure University is a liberal arts college located on 500 acres in southwestern New York state. SBU offers 43 undergraduate majors, the most popular of which are elementary education, journalism, psychology, accounting, marketing, finance, and management. Total undergraduate enrollment is 2,000. Virtually all freshmen and most undergraduates live on campus. A founding member of the A10 Conference. Famous athletes include Bob Lanier. Historical nickname was the Brown Indians, but later changed to the Bonnies. Their mascot is a wolf.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	St Joseph's ST. JOSEPH'S Founded by the Society of Jesus in 1851, Saint Joseph's University advances the professional and personal ambitions of men and women by providing a demanding, yet supportive educational experience. One of only 139 schools nationwide with a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and AACSB business school accreditation, Saint Joseph's is home to 4,200 full-time undergraduates and 3,100 graduate, part-time and doctoral candidates. Located in urban Philadelphia, SJU is a fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Hawks. Athletic claim to fame is is the Hawk mascot, a university student on full scholarship who wears a Hawk uniform and flaps his wings continuously for an entire athletic event. School spirit slogan is "The Hawk Will Never Die."

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

	George Washington GEORGE WASHINGTON Students choose from two distinct GW campuses — Foggy Bottom and Mount Vernon. Both are located in historic and prestigious Northwest Washington, DC residential neighborhoods. With 9,700 undergraduate students, GW was founded almost 200 years ago and is named after the first President of the United States. GW stands as one of the nation's premier academic institutions with dozens of famous political, social, science, liberal arts, medical and professional graduates to its credit. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Colonials.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

	Charlotte CHARLOTTE UNC Charlotte is one of a generation of universities founded in metropolitan areas of the United States immediately after World War II in response to rising education demands generated by the war and its technology. Now a research intensive university, UNC Charlotte is the fourth largest of the 16 institutions within the University of North Carolina system and the largest institution in the Charlotte region. The university comprises seven professional colleges and currently offers 18 doctoral programs, 62 master’s degree programs and 90 bachelor’s degrees. More than 900 full-time faculty comprise the university’s academic departments and the 2007 fall enrollment exceeded 22,300 students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the 49ers.

[Flyer68]

I thought that the purpose of DePaul being in the Big East was to give the BE a Midwest exposure. Like having Fordham was to give the A10 a NYC exposure.

We have lost at Fordham \ Rose Hill more than once. I was there during the Tony Stanley days when we lost at Fordham. I agree that a loss to Fordham hurts more. UD has a strong NYC metro area following, alumni and history. We came into NYC beating our chests as a big Midwest power and then getting on the team bus and sneaking out of town.

I think it was 1966 and I will never forget being at MSG when we beat Houston, who had Elvin Hayes and Don Chaney. Looked like a big Midwest power that day beating another Midwest power.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[hawkoooo]

Ok, so I'll concede that getting rid of Fordham would have more value than adding say a Belmont for example, but what about adding Wichita State? Also, we know that getting rid of Fordham isn't a real possibility, so by default isn't the option that is possible more attractive?

The point of this thread (man do I wish I never even mentioned the word football) was to point out that there could be no-brainer* programs out there open to looking at a new home. In fact I would argue that condition exists at this very moment. I'm talking about Wichita State, Temple and Memphis specifically. And after reading every word of this thread it is still my position that we should considering extending invites.

I have been clamoring for the A10 to invite Wichita State probably since I enrolled at Dayton 17 years ago. Another golden opportunity to make this seemingly obviously addition has presented itself. I sincerely hope it doesn't go unexplored.

*I wanted to explain that by no-brainer I obviously mean a program that would without any debate improve the overall quality of the conference. WSU, Memphis and Temple fit this description. Arguably Tulsa and SMU also fit this description but the case is less obvious.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[hawkoooo]

I wanted to address the football discussion in a different post to keep the points separate.

These schools that are "holding out for a P5 invite," from where do they think this invite will come? I got news for the rest of the American: the B12 is NOT "Power 5" anymore. Its a Power 4 now, and you still ain't in it whether your jersey has an A or a B12 patch on it.

By my count there are 7-8 remaining spots IF all four of the Power 4 went to 16 teams. The Pac 12 just missed out on four potential targets (Tex, OK, BYU, Houston) so the idea that they'll be clamoring to expand soon does not sound likely. The same argument can be made for the B1G and ACC who also just had opportunities to go to 16 and chose not to.

The odds that one of those 7-8 schools (if that day ever comes) is Memphis or Temple have to be exceedingly low. If I were them I'd focus on getting my prestigious brand-name basketball programs into a better league and quit worrying about who your conference football games are going to be played against.

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

[Wallage]

The A10 should absolutely bring in Wichita St if the opportunity presents itself. Yes, the A10 would benefit significantly from dropping teams - it may be better to drop teams than pickup Wichita. But better is sometime the enemy of good.

[jack72]

There is no way on earth that the A10 drops a team. If WSU wants to join, take them right now.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by jack72 There is no way on earth that the A10 drops a team. If WSU wants to join, take them right now.

Yeah, maybe, I guess. I am somewhat concerned about how they do post-Gregg Marshall, although they did make the ncaat last year with hc Isaac Brown.

From 1989 to 2005, they had zero ncaat appearances, Mark Turgeon took them to the ncaat in 2006, and then they took off with Marshall, making it in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018.

NCAA Tournament Appearances
1964, 1965, 1976, 1981, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2006, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2021

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wich...27s_basketball

[hawkoooo]

Originally Posted by jack72 There is no way on earth that the A10 drops a team. If WSU wants to join, take them right now.

There is one exception to this and that would be a merger.

[UACFlyer]

Originally Posted by hawkoooo Ok, so I'll concede that getting rid of Fordham would have more value than adding say a Belmont for example, but what about adding Wichita State? Also, we know that getting rid of Fordham isn't a real possibility, so by default isn't the option that is possible more attractive? The point of this thread (man do I wish I never even mentioned the word football) was to point out that there could be no-brainer* programs out there open to looking at a new home. In fact I would argue that condition exists at this very moment. I'm talking about Wichita State, Temple and Memphis specifically. And after reading every word of this thread it is still my position that we should considering extending invites. I have been clamoring for the A10 to invite Wichita State probably since I enrolled at Dayton 17 years ago. Another golden opportunity to make this seemingly obviously addition has presented itself. I sincerely hope it doesn't go unexplored. *I wanted to explain that by no-brainer I obviously mean a program that would without any debate improve the overall quality of the conference. WSU, Memphis and Temple fit this description. Arguably Tulsa and SMU also fit this description but the case is less obvious.

Schools learn from past experiences, and not just their own.

The original Big East was a great success. It's downfall began when it began to add football schools. Schools that play big time FB have important interests that clash with those of BB-only schools.

Additionally, the big-time FB schools are invariably public institutions while many top-tier BB schools are private and much smaller, further exacerbating the institutional clashes.'

I was a grad student at Northwestern when the Big Ten really had ten schools....only one of which was private, NU. Although NU was a founding member of the Big Ten and surely knows of the benefit, I recall much talk at the time about NU always being on the short end, 9-1, of voting on just about any issue.

Bottom line: A major hybrid conference comprised of FB and BB schools, private and public, large and small...spells nothing but trouble in the long run. The issues differentiating the interests of schools are of fundamental importance.

Even in the A10 their is a clash of interests. How else does one explain a major institution like Fordham refusing to invest adequately in BB while operating a scholarship FCS FB program...a money pit if ever their was one?

	Temple TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Founded in 1884 by Dr. Russell Conwell, Temple College became Temple University in 1907. Located in Philadelphia, Temple is a comprehensive public research university with 34,000 students, 8 campuses, and 300 academic degree programs. Notable alumni include Bill Cosby and Daryl Hall. Temple's nickname is the Owls and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

[shapanud]

Originally Posted by ud2 Yeah, maybe, I guess. I am somewhat concerned about how they do post-Gregg Marshall, although they did make the ncaat last year with hc Isaac Brown. From 1989 to 2005, they had zero ncaat appearances, Mark Turgeon took them to the ncaat in 2006, and then they took off with Marshall, making it in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018. NCAA Tournament Appearances 1964, 1965, 1976, 1981, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2006, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wich...27s_basketball

Since the AAC is falling apart, I see no way UD or A10 wants to be part of a conference with FBS schools. And no Big East team is leaving that conference. So if UD/A10 is looking elsewhere, that leaves the 218 D1 Bball schools that don't play FBS football or aren't in the Big East.

Kenpom does a "Program Ranking" that ranks all 357 D1 teams in the 24 years since he started his database (1997-2021). In an effort the add some data to the discussion of which programs the A10/Dayton should purge and/or go after, here are the Top 20 non-FBS, non-Big East schools with their overall program rank:

6 Gonzaga
55 Wichita St.
72 Dayton
75 VCU
76 Saint Mary's
91 Davidson
92 Saint Joseph's
93 Northern Iowa
94 Saint Louis
96 Rhode Island
98 Richmond
102 Missouri St.
104 Massachusetts
108 George Washington
110 St. Bonaventure
111 Illinois St.
112 Southern Illinois
115 George Mason
116 Murray St.
117 Valparaiso

From the A10, only LaSalle (135 overall, 29 non-FBS&BE), Duquesne (153, 42) and Fordham (213, 86) are not in the Top 20 of non-FBS, non-BE schools.

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	St Joseph's ST. JOSEPH'S Founded by the Society of Jesus in 1851, Saint Joseph's University advances the professional and personal ambitions of men and women by providing a demanding, yet supportive educational experience. One of only 139 schools nationwide with a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and AACSB business school accreditation, Saint Joseph's is home to 4,200 full-time undergraduates and 3,100 graduate, part-time and doctoral candidates. Located in urban Philadelphia, SJU is a fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Hawks. Athletic claim to fame is is the Hawk mascot, a university student on full scholarship who wears a Hawk uniform and flaps his wings continuously for an entire athletic event. School spirit slogan is "The Hawk Will Never Die."

	Fordham FORDHAM Fordham University is an independent Jesuit university established in 1841 as St. John's College on old Rose Hill Manor in the village of Fordham, then part of Westchester County in the Bronx, NY. The name Fordham is derived from the Anglo-Saxon words "ford" and "ham," meaning a wading place or ford by a settlement. Rose Hill is the name given to the site in 1787 by Robert Watts, a wealthy New York merchant, in honor of his family's ancestral home of the same name in Scotland. The College was originally staffed by diocesan clergy. The name was officially changed to Fordham University in 1907. Fordham's 10 schools enroll 14,448 students. There are 7,652 undergraduates, of whom 3,842 live in University-managed housing either on-campus or in the local community. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams. Athletic claim to fame is consistent mediocrity in nearly all sports and few A10 title winning programs.

	Duquesne DUQUESNE Duquesne University is a private, coeducational university, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania located on 48 secluded acres, on a bluff above downtown. Founded in 1878 as a Catholic college by the Order of the Holy Spirit. It is the only Spiritan institution of higher education in the world. Duquesne offers 10 schools of study and 100 degree programs to 6,000 undergraduates and 3,800 graduate students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Dukes.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

	George Washington GEORGE WASHINGTON Students choose from two distinct GW campuses — Foggy Bottom and Mount Vernon. Both are located in historic and prestigious Northwest Washington, DC residential neighborhoods. With 9,700 undergraduate students, GW was founded almost 200 years ago and is named after the first President of the United States. GW stands as one of the nation's premier academic institutions with dozens of famous political, social, science, liberal arts, medical and professional graduates to its credit. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Colonials.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by shapanud Since the AAC is falling apart, I see no way UD or A10 wants to be part of a conference with FBS schools. And no Big East team is leaving that conference. So if UD/A10 is looking elsewhere, that leaves the 218 D1 Bball schools that don't play FBS football or aren't in the Big East. Kenpom does a "Program Ranking" that ranks all 357 D1 teams in the 24 years since he started his database (1997-2021). In an effort the add some data to the discussion of which programs the A10/Dayton should purge and/or go after, here are the Top 20 non-FBS, non-Big East schools with their overall program rank: 6 Gonzaga 55 Wichita St. 72 Dayton 75 VCU 76 Saint Mary's 91 Davidson 92 Saint Joseph's 93 Northern Iowa 94 Saint Louis 96 Rhode Island 98 Richmond 102 Missouri St. 104 Massachusetts 108 George Washington 110 St. Bonaventure 111 Illinois St. 112 Southern Illinois 115 George Mason 116 Murray St. 117 Valparaiso From the A10, only LaSalle (135 overall, 29 non-FBS&BE), Duquesne (153, 42) and Fordham (213, 86) are not in the Top 20 of non-FBS, non-BE schools.

I have a Kenpom subscription, where on the site is this link? And where's Belmont on that list? Where's Vermont?

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	St Joseph's ST. JOSEPH'S Founded by the Society of Jesus in 1851, Saint Joseph's University advances the professional and personal ambitions of men and women by providing a demanding, yet supportive educational experience. One of only 139 schools nationwide with a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and AACSB business school accreditation, Saint Joseph's is home to 4,200 full-time undergraduates and 3,100 graduate, part-time and doctoral candidates. Located in urban Philadelphia, SJU is a fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Hawks. Athletic claim to fame is is the Hawk mascot, a university student on full scholarship who wears a Hawk uniform and flaps his wings continuously for an entire athletic event. School spirit slogan is "The Hawk Will Never Die."

	George Washington GEORGE WASHINGTON Students choose from two distinct GW campuses — Foggy Bottom and Mount Vernon. Both are located in historic and prestigious Northwest Washington, DC residential neighborhoods. With 9,700 undergraduate students, GW was founded almost 200 years ago and is named after the first President of the United States. GW stands as one of the nation's premier academic institutions with dozens of famous political, social, science, liberal arts, medical and professional graduates to its credit. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Colonials.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by shapanud Since the AAC is falling apart, I see no way UD or A10 wants to be part of a conference with FBS schools. And no Big East team is leaving that conference. So if UD/A10 is looking elsewhere, that leaves the 218 D1 Bball schools that don't play FBS football or aren't in the Big East. Kenpom does a "Program Ranking" that ranks all 357 D1 teams in the 24 years since he started his database (1997-2021). In an effort the add some data to the discussion of which programs the A10/Dayton should purge and/or go after, here are the Top 20 non-FBS, non-Big East schools with their overall program rank: 6 Gonzaga 55 Wichita St. 72 Dayton 75 VCU 76 Saint Mary's 91 Davidson 92 Saint Joseph's 93 Northern Iowa 94 Saint Louis 96 Rhode Island 98 Richmond 102 Missouri St. 104 Massachusetts 108 George Washington 110 St. Bonaventure 111 Illinois St. 112 Southern Illinois 115 George Mason 116 Murray St. 117 Valparaiso From the A10, only LaSalle (135 overall, 29 non-FBS&BE), Duquesne (153, 42) and Fordham (213, 86) are not in the Top 20 of non-FBS, non-BE schools.

Based on these awesome stats, there aren't really too many practical options for upgrades outside of WSU. While DU is out of the top 20, they have been better recently and have invested in their facilities and have one of the better venues in the conference.

GU and SM aren't ever joining. Most of the MVC teams in the top 20 have had years we'd love to add them and then a year or two later, no thanks. Without looking the stats up, NIU has been pretty steady of the past 10 years.

I'd love to get WSU in the A10 as that would finally end all the MLK day discussions :-)

	Richmond UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND Founded in 1830, the private liberal arts university in the Commonwealth boasts 2,800 students in 57 majors within its picturesque 350-acre campus. The Robins School of Business is one of the Top-20 business schools in the country. Nickname is the Spiders and are fellow A10 Conference members.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

	St Joseph's ST. JOSEPH'S Founded by the Society of Jesus in 1851, Saint Joseph's University advances the professional and personal ambitions of men and women by providing a demanding, yet supportive educational experience. One of only 139 schools nationwide with a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and AACSB business school accreditation, Saint Joseph's is home to 4,200 full-time undergraduates and 3,100 graduate, part-time and doctoral candidates. Located in urban Philadelphia, SJU is a fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Hawks. Athletic claim to fame is is the Hawk mascot, a university student on full scholarship who wears a Hawk uniform and flaps his wings continuously for an entire athletic event. School spirit slogan is "The Hawk Will Never Die."

	George Washington GEORGE WASHINGTON Students choose from two distinct GW campuses — Foggy Bottom and Mount Vernon. Both are located in historic and prestigious Northwest Washington, DC residential neighborhoods. With 9,700 undergraduate students, GW was founded almost 200 years ago and is named after the first President of the United States. GW stands as one of the nation's premier academic institutions with dozens of famous political, social, science, liberal arts, medical and professional graduates to its credit. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Colonials.

	Saint Louis SAINT LOUIS Saint Louis University is a Jesuit, Catholic university ranked among the top research institutions in the nation. The University fosters the intellectual and character development of more than 12,700 students. Founded in 1818, it is the oldest university west of the Mississippi and the second oldest Jesuit university in the United States. Located in St. Louis, MO, and just five minutes from the Gateway Arch, SLU offers 85 undergraduate programs and over 50 graduate study tracks. Over 99% of the SLU faculty hold the highest degree in their respective fields. Fellow member of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Billikens, but also commonly known as "Sloo", the phonetic pronunciation of the school's initials. Athletic claims to fame include multiple national titles in men's soccer and men's basketball star Larry Hughes.

[shapanud]

Originally Posted by ud2 I have a Kenpom subscription, where on the site is this link? And where's Belmont on that list? Where's Vermont?

Belmont is 118, 21st in non-FBS&BE
Vermont 136, just below LaSalle

https://kenpom.com/programs.php & here for an explanantion: https://kenpom.com/blog/program-ratings/

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[ud2]

Originally Posted by shapanud Belmont is 118, 21st in non-FBS&BE Vermont 136, just below LaSalle https://kenpom.com/programs.php & here for an explanantion: https://kenpom.com/blog/program-ratings/

I would like to see him break it down more if he could, such as the last 10 years, last 15 years, etc. Vermont and Belmont would be ranked higher if the time frame was shorter.

Wichita without Marshall still concerns me.

And I don't like that he is including recruit rankings and league affiliation in his rankings computation formula, it should be just based on wins and losses.

	LaSalle LA SALLE In 1863, La Salle University was established through the legacy of St. John Baptist de La Salle and the Christian Brothers teaching order, which De La Salle founded 300 years ago. Located in Philadelphia, La Salle is an educational community shaped by traditional Catholic and Lasallian values. La Salle's main campus is an ideal place for students to pursue an education. The 130-acre park-like setting includes 54 buildings and is located approximately six miles from Center City Philadelphia. The University can accommodate 2,114 resident students in its 12 residence halls, two apartment complexes, and 75 townhouses. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Explorers. Notable athletes include Tom Gola and Lionel Simmons.

[UD62]

Originally Posted by ud2 I would like to see him break it down more if he could, such as the last 10 years, last 15 years, etc. Vermont and Belmont would be ranked higher if the time frame was shorter. Wichita without Marshall still concerns me. And I don't like that he is including recruit rankings and league affiliation in his rankings computation formula, it should be just based on wins and losses.

Would agree on recruit rankings, but I believe the strength of the league they play in is a factor

[springborofan]

Originally Posted by ud2 I would like to see him break it down more if he could, such as the last 10 years, last 15 years, etc. Vermont and Belmont would be ranked higher if the time frame was shorter. Wichita without Marshall still concerns me. And I don't like that he is including recruit rankings and league affiliation in his rankings computation formula, it should be just based on wins and losses.

Wait…just a few weeks ago you were arguing that UConn was as good as Memphis in football. You had to stretch it out to the early 2000’s to try to make your argument. Now, it should be the last 10 years? SMH…

[ud2]

Originally Posted by springborofan Wait…just a few weeks ago you were arguing that UConn was as good as Memphis in football. You had to stretch it out to the early 2000’s to try to make your argument. Now, it should be the last 10 years? SMH…

Fair enough, but UConn showed potential in football. If I am the ACC, Big 12, or Big 10(a stretch, I know), and I am evaluating UConn vs. Memphis, the point I was making was that over the long term when taking into consideration UConn's great basketball history, I don't know if the football team's recent struggles would scare me off.

And Memphis is not some football juggernaut.

Belmont started taking off around 2006. Vermont took off around 2003. Both programs have similar profiles in that sense.

Just feels like programs that did what it took to reach the top of their current league and dominate, will do well in a tougher league, they have institutional aspiration.