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  #1  
Old 02-19-2018, 02:15 PM
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Stir the Pot

Lets see if we can get everyone going! So this week Both Gonzaga and X are in the Top 10 rankings!! The X thing bothers me to this day and I wont let it go and Gonzaga is simply remarkable. This will be there 19th straight NCAA appearance and of course they made it to the Championship game last year. Both schools have done with different models. Gonzaga weak conference, that they have dominated and most important a coach Mark Few who has stayed 19 years as head coach and built a great great Culture. I have been on there campus and it makes me marvel even more in what they have. Hell you cant get there!!!! X has changed coaches, hired from within and blew by us into the Big East where they don't have to dominate to go to the NCAA every year. So with that in mind the mindset that we will never get in the Big East is foolish. The door will open again and UD must work the backroom and Perform to become the darling, just like Butler did as they blew by us. Takes Grant staying and getting us back to the NCAA next year as he changes this roster. Neil and Dr Spina need to believe and be relentless in meeting with ADs and Presidents to sell UD. We as Alumni and fans must continue to push for this change. Gonzaga and Xavier.... wow...
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:47 PM
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I think we all want the same thing - continued improvement in opportunity and overall success of our basketball program, with the latter helping elevate the national awareness and perception of the University as a whole. If that's within the Big East and that opportunity presents itself, then great. We can't put all of our chips into that basket and hope that the door opens one day. It's a constant evaluation of what the current opportunity is and preparing ourselves for ones that may come.

There are so many things going on within the NCAA right now, not just within basketball, that will have major impact on how a lot of these things settle out. Just to name a few - heightened discussion of "amateurism" within the NCAA, transfer rule changes, more conference shake ups, pending FBI probe that promises 20-30 big schools getting named, Title IX and zero tolerance policies coming from Institutional Administration, and the list goes on.
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:51 PM
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Everyone always looks at the few that made it. What about the vast majority that don't? The norm is not to have the success that X and Gonzaga have enjoyed.
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Old 02-19-2018, 03:23 PM
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The Norm is about to change as SLUFLYER just posted . The Norm is easy..the Norm dosent need a 90 million dollar renovation. The Norm dosent include 13500 fans at a Game between Fordham and Dayton two sub 500 teams. The Norm dosent pay coaches what we pay. The Norm dosent travel In College basketball like Dayton does. The norm dosent place 23rd in Home attendance where every other school in the Top 25 is a Power conference school. The norm dosent have our facilities. We should look only at Xavier...Butler...Gonzaga when we look to the future. Door is about to open either in Big East or a new venture. Safe is the ATEN , simply not good enough.
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Old 02-19-2018, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by flybye View Post
The Norm is about to change as SLUFLYER just posted . The Norm is easy..the Norm dosent need a 90 million dollar renovation. The Norm dosent include 13500 fans at a Game between Fordham and Dayton two sub 500 teams. The Norm dosent pay coaches what we pay. The Norm dosent travel In College basketball like Dayton does. The norm dosent place 23rd in Home attendance where every other school in the Top 25 is a Power conference school. The norm dosent have our facilities. We should look only at Xavier...Butler...Gonzaga when we look to the future. Door is about to open either in Big East or a new venture. Safe is the ATEN , simply not good enough.
Gee, a whole bunch of stuff I havent heard before. I had no idea, thanks for explaining.
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Old 02-19-2018, 03:43 PM
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Pot stirred!!!! Thanks for reading!!
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Old 02-19-2018, 03:48 PM
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What Gonzaga has done (and sustained) is beyond incredible.

Beyond the unusual and unfamiliar name of the school (who had even heard of Gonzaga prior to the 1990s?), the campus is located in northeast Washington near the Idaho border and not too far from the Canadian border—not exactly known as a hub of college basketball or an ideal location. Gonzaga had virtually no real tradition prior to the 1990s and, in fact, had never played in any postseason tournament until the NIT in 1994. Prior to that, they had only won their conference twice, in 1966 and 1967. Their first NCAA tournament appearance was not until 1995, and not again until 1999, when they first made it to the Elite Eight. Gonzaga currently plays in a 6,000 seat gym, and before that they played in a 4,000 seat gym.
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Old 02-19-2018, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by flybye View Post
The Norm is about to change as SLUFLYER just posted . The Norm is easy..the Norm dosent need a 90 million dollar renovation. The Norm dosent include 13500 fans at a Game between Fordham and Dayton two sub 500 teams. The Norm dosent pay coaches what we pay. The Norm dosent travel In College basketball like Dayton does. The norm dosent place 23rd in Home attendance where every other school in the Top 25 is a Power conference school. The norm dosent have our facilities. We should look only at Xavier...Butler...Gonzaga when we look to the future. Door is about to open either in Big East or a new venture. Safe is the ATEN , simply not good enough.
Maybe it is something other than money and 13k screaming fans
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  #9  
Old 02-19-2018, 04:02 PM
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it is.... better conference. We have the right coach now. Great recruiter and will be a good bench coach with his kids..then up to Neil for better conference!!
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:18 PM
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Didn't this very thread say Gonzaga did it without the better conference? Didn't X and Butler both do it without the better conference? If X was still in the A-10, are we saying they would have fallen back, because I don't think that's true. It may be true that they wouldn't be quite as high as they are right now, but even that's difficult to say. X has pretty much always out-recruited us, no matter what conference they are in.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by flybye View Post
it is.... better conference. We have the right coach now. Great recruiter and will be a good bench coach with his kids..then up to Neil for better conference!!
OK, I'll take the bait, despite all the red pips next to your name.

Your post states that "we have the right coach NOW". Does that suggest we didn't have the right coach before?

And it's simply up to Neil to find a better conference? Well if Neil can do that all on his own, he might want to consider a run for the White House, since he can solve some problems all by himself that nobody else can.

The conference thing is an evolution, that requires a lot of posturing and politic-ing as things evolve. Looking at today's vacuum, the only one that makes no brainer sense is Big East, and we're not invited right now. The Missouri Valley is at best a lateral move, and while the American would be a slight step up from top to bottom, it's a massive risk with all those schools wanting to be in the BIG GAME - major college football conference at the first hint of an invite.

Given the current landscape, we should do exactly what we're doing - tread water, posture behind the scenes and be ready when the next wave of crisis and panic across the country creates an opportunity for UD.
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2018, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Maybe it is something other than money and 13k screaming fans
As far as i can tell, the one thing, in two separate ways, that Gonzaga and X have had is continuity. Mark Few has been there doing it for a while. there is a process and a flow of players that has been very consistent. X, while changing coaches, has always hired from the staff and kept the continuity. For whatever reason, at UD, we have not had that, and it has been very disruptive every 5-8 years...like starting over disruptive. That is something I am certain was in the front of Neil's mind when hiring AG and I believe that part of AG's hiring included that thought process. We are hurt by these coaching changes. this season we had a bit of a talent drop off that Archie even would have struggled with, but the loss of recruits and the change in coaching style just exacerbates that. I actually see lots of promise on the offensive side of the ball in what I see this year. we get to the rim as well as i can remember, and as Crutcher and Landers have settled in, our starting 5 really do a good job sharing. but there are clear defensive weaknesses and there are not enough guys that can step in and help. I can continue to stew about why coaches leave and we don't have a pipeline in the assistants, and I sure hope AG and Neil are addressing for the lng term. However, we are where we are now, and whether you are sold on AG or not, it is who UD has bet on and I think we all can agree that what we have this season is not a good indicator of what we can potentially do under AG. my $0.02
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:43 PM
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The way I see it, we’ve got three more years to get our act together. I believe football playoff negotiations begin again in 2021. What happens during that window and if the playoffs are expanded to 8 teams will determine what happens with college basketball. If conference is determined expansion is needed, say goodbye to the American. If not, be American could be a viable option. The only way we get into the big east is fox tells the big east we are coming. Fox just got Thursday night football. They have the big 10 as well. They don’t need the big east as much as the big east needs them.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:07 PM
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Look, it is up to Neil and Spina, you know that. Grant will here long term. He is not looking to leave and will recruit better than Archie. Its Important that UD perform at a high level asap. That's why you will see the roster turnover faster than normal. Archie left us in a tough spot. Grant will fix it.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:32 PM
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One of the things Xavier and Gonzaga have done is recruit a a high level. Adam Morrison and Trevon Bluiett guys have not matriculated to UD. Neither have Samaj Christon, Tu Holloway, Kelly Olyniak, or Ronny Turiaf.

Both schools consistently get Top-50 and Top-100 players -- and not just guys that appeared on one guy's Top-100 list but everybodys Top-100 list. Mack and Few can coach -- no doubt about it. But they can recruit too.

Give any coach better players and that coach instantly becomes smarter.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CE80 View Post
Maybe it is something other than money and 13k screaming fans
This is so true.

While I don't know the answer, I do know that if you can answer one question, you'll have your answer. Why hasn't Dayton had a player drafted by the NBA in 28 years while X and Gonzaga have had many? Is it because we don't identify them? Is it because we don't offer them? Is it because we don't develop them or is it because such potential wants nothing to do with Dayton? If it's that such potential just can never whittle their final choice to Dayton, it's time to do a study and start interviewing these guys that Dayton offered but chose X and Butler, or even the ones who've chosen other A10 schools and get the reason.

It's certainly not bad luck. Something keeps these players from choosing Dayton. It's time to find out why and also to make changes accordingly if possible.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
One of the things Xavier and Gonzaga have done is recruit a a high level. Adam Morrison and Trevon Bluiett guys have not matriculated to UD. Neither have Samaj Christon, Tu Holloway, Kelly Olyniak, or Ronny Turiaf.

Both schools consistently get Top-50 and Top-100 players -- and not just guys that appeared on one guy's Top-100 list but everybodys Top-100 list. Mack and Few can coach -- no doubt about it. But they can recruit too.

Give any coach better players and that coach instantly becomes smarter.
Spot on. It is the recruiting thing that UD has been unable to crack.

Archie was one of the hottest coaches in the country and yet he struggled to land top talent. Why? So did BG and OP. Why?

I’ve heard lots of reasons why UD can’t land better players. It seems that Gonzaga and X had a lot of those same reasons to overcome as well.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
One of the things Xavier and Gonzaga have done is recruit a a high level. Adam Morrison and Trevon Bluiett guys have not matriculated to UD. Neither have Samaj Christon, Tu Holloway, Kelly Olyniak, or Ronny Turiaf.

Both schools consistently get Top-50 and Top-100 players -- and not just guys that appeared on one guy's Top-100 list but everybodys Top-100 list. Mack and Few can coach -- no doubt about it. But they can recruit too.

Give any coach better players and that coach instantly becomes smarter.
Not exactly true. If you go through 247's recruiting rankings you're not gonna see a bunch of top players. More true lately for Gonzaga not quite the case

https://247sports.com/college/gonzag...etball/Commits

Adam Morrison 2 star
https://247sports.com/college/gonzag...etball/Commits

Gonzaga does a lot of work with transfers going back Dan Dickau all the way through Nigel Williams Goss who their catalyst last year. They had three transfers starting on their national runner up team last year.

They've also done well in Canada with guys like Olynyk, Kevin Pangos, Robert Sacre

Overseas is where they've really done their work. Turiaf, Elias Harris, Sabonis, Karnowski, etc are all Euros they've mined

They've landed one McDonald's AA straight from High School and that was Zack Collins last year.

They get some top 100 guys and they're more common now but that's not been their foundation over the years. They've used transfers and done well with international players.

You look at NC State's recruiting over the years and you'd think they'd be in the position in terms of wins as Gonzaga
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
This is so true.

While I don't know the answer, I do know that if you can answer one question, you'll have your answer. Why hasn't Dayton had a player drafted by the NBA in 28 years while X and Gonzaga have had many? Is it because we don't identify them? Is it because we don't offer them? Is it because we don't develop them or is it because such potential wants nothing to do with Dayton? If it's that such potential just can never whittle their final choice to Dayton, it's time to do a study and start interviewing these guys that Dayton offered but chose X and Butler, or even the ones who've chosen other A10 schools and get the reason.

It's certainly not bad luck. Something keeps these players from choosing Dayton. It's time to find out why and also to make changes accordingly if possible.
The answer is fairly simple. Big-time players don't want to play in the 10th best conference in college basketball. We have a great venue with loads of fan support, but compete against teams that play in high school gyms. Until we elevate the program to much better league, it will continue to be very difficult to attract top recruits.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:33 PM
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Xavier recruits better than Gonzaga generally but they still have less top 100 guys than you would think. Churchill Odia has was maybe their 2nd highest rated recruit ever was a total bust

https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/home

Tu Holloway wasn't a consensus Top 100 guy
https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/home/2008-final

Gonzaga and Xavier have had unbelievable success working the transfer game. This especially in Xavier's case covered up some of their misses from high school ranks.

Brian Thornton, Drew Lavander, Jordan Crawford, CJ Anderson, Jamal McLean, Travis Taylor, Isiah Philmore, Matt Stainbrook, Remy Abell. Those are some pretty big pieces to Xavier's success over the years

Xavier also did work with non/partial qualifiers. Jeff Robinson, Jalen Reynolds, James Posey, Lionel Chalmers, Myles Davis, Mark Lyons, Justin Martin
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:40 PM
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Winning opens a lot of doors in recruiting. Just track VCU's classes year by year on Rivals or 247.

Unless you've got a Rick Stansbury or Calipari it's gonna be hard to get top 150 guys without a track record of consistent success.

In Dayton's case if you're looking at pure talent acquisition. Look at what the transfer market has given us from Dillard to Cunningham. What would this year have looked like if Archie had gotten a Cooke/Siebert/Sanford/Dillard at guard coming eligible this year
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Monster Man View Post
The answer is fairly simple. Big-time players don't want to play in the 10th best conference in college basketball. We have a great venue with loads of fan support, but compete against teams that play in high school gyms. Until we elevate the program to much better league, it will continue to be very difficult to attract top recruits.
Really? Does that answer why we weren't able to get big time recruits while Xavier did when they were in the same conference?
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Really? Does that answer why we weren't able to get big time recruits while Xavier did when they were in the same conference?
The past is the past, I'm talking about the current situation and the future direction of the program. For whatever reason, over the last 28 years, most top recruits don't consider Dayton a top program. I wish I could answer your question.
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R View Post
O

Both schools consistently get Top-50 and Top-100 players -- and not just guys that appeared on one guy's Top-100 list but everybodys Top-100 list.
The RSCI (Recruiting Services Consensus Index) takes an average of the nation’s top recruiting services to create a composite ranking. The RSCI dates back to 1998.

https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/home

Xavier and Gonzaga Top 100 guys since 98

1998
Xavier Lloyd Price 28th

2000
Xavier- Romain Sato 53

2001
Xavier- Keith Jackson 53

2002
Xavier- Dedrick Finn 95

2004
Xavier- Churchill Odia 56
Gonzaga- Josh Heytvelt 74 & David Pendergraft 88

2006
Xavier- Adrion Graves 100
Gonzaga Matt Bouldin 65

2007
Gonzaga- Austin Daye 34 & Steven Gray 100

2008
Xavier- Kenny Frease 48

2010
Xavier- Justin Martin 87

2011
Xavier- Dez Wells 54

2012
Xavier- Semaj Christon 49
Gonzaga- Gary Bell 77

2013
Xavier- Brandon Randolph 98

2014
Xavier- Trevon Bluiett 38 & Makinde London 94
Gonzaga- Josh Perkins 60 & Domantas Sabonis 93

2016
Gonzaga- Zach Collins 28
Xavier- Quentin Goodin 77

2017
Xavier- Paul Scruggs 29 & Naj Marshall 57

8 Consensus Top 100 guys since 1998 for Gonzaga
16 for Xavier

Of the 16 for Xavier; Churchill Odia, Keith Jackson, Adrion Graves, Makinde London, Brandon Randolph transferred or were busts.
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
The RSCI (Recruiting Services Consensus Index) takes an average of the nation’s top recruiting services to create a composite ranking. The RSCI dates back to 1998.

https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/home

Xavier and Gonzaga Top 100 guys since 98

1998
Xavier Lloyd Price 28th

2000
Xavier- Romain Sato 53

2001
Xavier- Keith Jackson 53

2002
Xavier- Dedrick Finn 95

2004
Xavier- Churchill Odia 56
Gonzaga- Josh Heytvelt 74 & David Pendergraft 88

2006
Xavier- Adrion Graves 100
Gonzaga Matt Bouldin 65

2007
Gonzaga- Austin Daye 34 & Steven Gray 100

2008
Xavier- Kenny Frease 48

2010
Xavier- Justin Martin 87

2011
Xavier- Dez Wells 54

2012
Xavier- Semaj Christon 49
Gonzaga- Gary Bell 77

2013
Xavier- Brandon Randolph 98

2014
Xavier- Trevon Bluiett 38 & Makinde London 94
Gonzaga- Josh Perkins 60 & Domantas Sabonis 93

2016
Gonzaga- Zach Collins 28
Xavier- Quentin Goodin 77

2017
Xavier- Paul Scruggs 29 & Naj Marshall 57

8 Consensus Top 100 guys since 1998 for Gonzaga
16 for Xavier

Of the 16 for Xavier; Churchill Odia, Keith Jackson, Adrion Graves, Makinde London, Brandon Randolph transferred or were busts.
Interesting to see Dayton with three in 2010. Well, sort of — seeing as how two of them transferred in a few years later. Jordan Sibert was 63, Juwan Staten was 76, and Matt Derenbecker was 85.

Last edited by The Fly; 02-20-2018 at 10:05 AM..
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:10 PM
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I think transfers were a bigger component of Xavier's A10 success than the top 100 guys they got from that era
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
Spot on. It is the recruiting thing that UD has been unable to crack.

Archie was one of the hottest coaches in the country and yet he struggled to land top talent. Why? So did BG and OP. Why?

I’ve heard lots of reasons why UD can’t land better players. It seems that Gonzaga and X had a lot of those same reasons to overcome as well.
Historically it's an easy call. If you're X or Gonzaga, you simply point to the number of years you go to the NCAA, nearly EVERY year, and it becomes much easier to recruit those top players. If you are struggling every year to make the dance, you have nothing to point to. Kids want to be seen in the NCAA. They want the experience. And if it's nearly a guarantee as it is in the case of Butler, X or Gonzaga, you will beat out UD nearly every time for that top talent.

I think the key with AG will be recruit at a high level, and quickly get us back into consideration every year. Success breeds more success. Longevity of a coach is just as important - hopefully AG can do both.

Last edited by longtimefan67; 02-19-2018 at 08:32 PM..
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:06 PM
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Havne't thought about the why's of why we haven't been able to land many 4 star and Top 75 guys. On the face of it, we have the facilities, we have many winning seasons. We have had 2 or 3 great coaches.

We are mainly a Top 5 to Top 7 Conference over the last 15 years.

Midwest Schools like Indy, OSU , Michigan and MSU get guys. so it has to be competition. If you peel off the top 40 Teams, the Carolina's and Dukes and Kentucky Wildcats get 3 or 4 5 Star guys, 2 4 star guys. The other big players all land 1 to 3 of the Top 100.

Which means we are starting at roughly Top 75 as our highest potential recruit. The competition and recruiting trips and constant phone calls and visits for players must be FIERCE. Which means gotta have 2 or 3 silver tongued assistant coaches who can schmooze and persuade.

MORE Thoughts on the why's and why nots?
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyer 86 View Post
Havne't thought about the why's of why we haven't been able to land many 4 star and Top 75 guys. On the face of it, we have the facilities, we have many winning seasons. We have had 2 or 3 great coaches.

We are mainly a Top 5 to Top 7 Conference over the last 15 years.

Midwest Schools like Indy, OSU , Michigan and MSU get guys. so it has to be competition. If you peel off the top 40 Teams, the Carolina's and Dukes and Kentucky Wildcats get 3 or 4 5 Star guys, 2 4 star guys. The other big players all land 1 to 3 of the Top 100.

Which means we are starting at roughly Top 75 as our highest potential recruit. The competition and recruiting trips and constant phone calls and visits for players must be FIERCE. Which means gotta have 2 or 3 silver tongued assistant coaches who can schmooze and persuade.

MORE Thoughts on the why's and why nots?

We may find out very soon why we were not able to land many 4 or 5 star recruits. From various sources, 36 large schools potential he may not be landing these recruits for a while. This NCAA investigation has a long way to go. I just hope we are not caught up in it ourselves.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:03 PM
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I remember watching Gonzaga in the NCAAT go to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 about 20 years ago. They beat St. John's I think in the game that I remember.

Gus Johnson on CBS kept calling them the Zags, instead of the Bulldogs.

The Zags were so fresh and new and such an unexpected Cinderella back then.

Now, it seems that they are expected to at least win 1 or 2 NCAAT games every year.

They dominate the WCC and routinely win big OOC games against the p5.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:26 PM
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X & Gonzaga have NBA players & importantly guys drafted in the first round. Especially in the case of X they've got the draft picks & guys in NBA to show recruits. James Posey, Brian Grant & David West all had pretty visible careers

It's one thing for a coach to say he coached x,y&z but doing at the current the program carries the weight. The program having a track record I think matters too

Dayton's twitter page is promoting AGs ties to guys at the all star game. Most of these kids even if it's a long shot aspire to play in the NBA especially the top 100
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:47 PM
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Sibert! Sibert! Sibert! Sibert!!! Its not Siebert! Please get it right! The man hit one of the most important shots of all time (UD does not make tourney if had lost game to IPFW) and was key member of Elite 8 run. Show some respect and get it right! Not just aimed at 2 that screwed it up this thread (that I noticed), it's written wrong in so many different threads when he is mentioned it is crazy.
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Old 02-20-2018, 12:14 AM
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Brian Roberts, Chris Johnson, Cooke, Wright those guys NBA careers I don't think move the needle when it comes to recruits. Knight was our last actual draft pick.

Combine the NBA drought with the lack of success pre Archie then I don't think it's a surprise it's been an uphill battle to recruit at an elite level. Facilities and fan support only go so far

That said if you look at the list I posted, Chris is wrong. It wasn't top 100 guys that got Xavier in the Big East or especially with Gonzaga built their success

Recruiting high schoolers is one way to build a roster. Vee Sanford, Jordan Sibert, Charles Cooke, Josh Cunningham, Kevin Dillard were all top notch players. Without Vee and Sibert the Elite 8 run never happens.

Instead of focusing on what we struggle to do I think the transfer market has proven to be a way to get top 100 talent and get guys that contribute on the division one level. It's been a proven winning formula for Dayton. I don't know the ins and outs but I was disappointed that after Cunningham the flow of transfers shut down.

The top 100 guys come after you've built something
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Old 02-20-2018, 12:44 AM
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International pipeline of big men helps fuel Gonzaga's success

Few in particular enjoys recruiting players outside of an immediate gratification, me-centric AAU environment.

"They're hard-working guys that don't expect much," Few said. "They're very appreciative of everything that does come. … They don't have a handout. They haven't been taken care of ever since seventh grade. They weren't promised and coddled and kissed up to. They fit in with our (Gonzaga) culture."

Growing up and developing outside of the AAU world, they don't have pre-existing biases when it comes to colleges, Few said. International players don't feel pressure to play in certain leagues — "the Power 5 and all that crap," Few puts it — and instead focus on colleges' credentials. They see the NCAA tournament streak. They see Gonzaga's track record with players like them.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-few/19951513/

Gonzaga works overseas hard because they can't compete just going after top 100 kids
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Old 02-20-2018, 07:24 AM
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*Except 'Rollo'...nobody has screwed that one up EVER!

Originally Posted by CraSch View Post
Sibert! Sibert! Sibert! Sibert!!! Its not Siebert! Please get it right!
'Paxton'?...'Donaher'?...if Priders can't get those 2 right, it's safe to no name is sacred*.
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Old 02-20-2018, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
'Paxton'?...'Donaher'?...if Priders can't get those 2 right, it's safe to no name is sacred*.
I agree with Rolla!!
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Old 02-20-2018, 09:22 AM
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I agree with Rolla!!
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