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  #1  
Old 01-21-2019, 04:35 PM
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Can someone explain this play to me?

What is up with the "new" play we're running where Crutcher dribbles the ball down the middle of the floor, throws the ball to the wing to enter the offense, cuts all the way to the baseline, gets a pick under the basket, and then comes straight back all the way back to the top of the key at about 24 feet from the rim to catch the return pass from the wing? In other words, he runs to the baseline and back to catch the ball exactly where he started.

It accomplishes nothing I can see, and 4 guys stand completely still for 5 seconds watching all of the nothing develop in slow motion. It sucks the energy out of the offense because guys get lead feet the longer they stand still. Edit: and the pick is totally ineffective because it happens 20 feet from where he catches the pass, so the defender can easily recover even off a good pick--and they set a brush screen at best.

For a guy who plays 37 minutes per game, I think if I was Crutcher I would fake the cut, stop, and receive the pass at the top of the key. Saves energy.

Last edited by Gazoo; 01-21-2019 at 04:39 PM..
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Old 01-21-2019, 06:09 PM
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I've noticed that too. There don't seem to be any other options on that play; just wait for Jalen to get back to the top. Perhaps AG is planning to add options once other teams have seen it on film? I don't know.
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Old 01-21-2019, 08:40 PM
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I can't recall the specific play, but every play has lots of options and reads. Often, there is a very slim chance of the that option being successful, but it keeps the defense off balance and honest.

If Crutcher loses his man any time during the route, he might have an open 3 or route to the rim. What are the other reads, because Crutcher might be clearing an option for another player as well. Coming all the way back to top of key might not be the first read for the offensive play. Is their a middle post read in the play like in the triangle offense?
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:26 AM
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Everyone does this now...at least the well coached teams do. I did a 4th grade boys game Saturday that ran this same offense and see it at the varsity level, too. The idea is to keep the defense moving and to recognize when a defender sags, gets lost or doesn't switch quickly or properly. If enough offensive players are moving/picking, it's only a matter of time before a mismatch or opening occurs. At that point, it must be immediately recognized and exploited.

This happened to us about 1000 times last season. Especially when Kostas was playing.
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:11 AM
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I see similar action with other teams as well, where it feels like the last 5 seconds of the possession were a waste. And by design.

I'm reminded of a Joe Gibbs story when he was coaching the Redskins. One year with a certain formation they always ran the same play. Always.

Until they didn't.

It went for a TD in the Super Bowl.
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Everyone does this now...at least the well coached teams do. I did a 4th grade boys game Saturday that ran this same offense and see it at the varsity level, too. The idea is to keep the defense moving and to recognize when a defender sags, gets lost or doesn't switch quickly or properly. If enough offensive players are moving/picking, it's only a matter of time before a mismatch or opening occurs. At that point, it must be immediately recognized and exploited.

This happened to us about 1000 times last season. Especially when Kostas was playing.
Sorry, I'm a bit slow. You're going to need to explain this to me a little more before I get it.

Tell me again:

1. Jordan receives the ball on the right wing and puts it in his hip. He never even looks at the corner, let's say that's Mikesell. Crutcher is jogging down the middle of the lane so there's no possibility of a post entry to Cunningham. The middle is clogged, so there's no need to over-commit to help, so there's no skip pass. There is no on-ball screen even faked. So there is 1 option while Crutcher runs down the middle: 4 guys stand still while he gets out of the way.

That's OK I guess for a beat, we'll wait.

2. Cunningham turns his back to the ball and sets a screen under the basket. Jordan still has the ball on his hip. There's no possibility of an entry to Crutcher at the foul line for a quick pop off the screen since it's such a long / lazy / arching screen the defender just jogs around and follows Crutcher back to the top of the lane. With all the mess in the middle of the lane, Mikesell / Trey / can't back cut. 2 non-lethal threats from 3 are standing still in the most un-lethal spot on the floor with no access to the places they CAN score.

And Crutcher, our best shooter, has exactly 1 spot he can go: back to the top of the key, because every other spot on the floor is occupied by a stationary player and defender.

3. So Crutcher jogs back to the top of the lane to get the ball right back where he started. He has a bad angle for an entry pass to Cunningham so our highest % shooter still can't touch the ball.


4. Next we bring our highest % shooter up to the top of the key to set a ball screen for Crutcher. 6-8 seconds have passed and no one has moved in a way that places any pressure on the defense, makes the defense turn their heads, heck the ball hasn't even left the same 20 square foot area of the floor.


I can't find 1 option off of this offense given our personnel. POSSIBLY a play where Crutcher curls back around and re-screens for Cunningham, who receives a quick pass from the corner from Mikesell. But why bother? Just throw it to him.

The worst part is our offense just stands still during the whole charade.

Last edited by Gazoo; 01-22-2019 at 08:20 AM..
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:44 AM
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Sir Gazoo, with all due respect, you're micromanaging the big picture. One possession does not define the concept of looking for a defensive lapse.

FWIW, basketball has evolved over the past 5, 10, 20+ years. AAU ball and the 'no defense' mentality has taken over and teams who exploit that will succeed. But it takes time to instill offensive and defensive discipline. Every play won't be perfect...but overall I hope you see what AG is developing. If we run a defense crazy 70% of the time, we're ahead of the curve. Next year - when our size and depth increases exponentially - I hope it's closer to 90%.
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:01 AM
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Our Dayton Flyers, #20 in the country in assists per game, and tops in the A-10. Something must be working right.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketbal...rrent/team/216
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Old 01-22-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
What is up with the "new" play we're running where Crutcher dribbles the ball down the middle of the floor, throws the ball to the wing to enter the offense, cuts all the way to the baseline, gets a pick under the basket, and then comes straight back all the way back to the top of the key at about 24 feet from the rim to catch the return pass from the wing? In other words, he runs to the baseline and back to catch the ball exactly where he started.

It accomplishes nothing I can see, and 4 guys stand completely still for 5 seconds watching all of the nothing develop in slow motion. It sucks the energy out of the offense because guys get lead feet the longer they stand still. Edit: and the pick is totally ineffective because it happens 20 feet from where he catches the pass, so the defender can easily recover even off a good pick--and they set a brush screen at best.

For a guy who plays 37 minutes per game, I think if I was Crutcher I would fake the cut, stop, and receive the pass at the top of the key. Saves energy.
I did notice this same play multiple times and it sort of had me scratching my head as well. The best I can come up with is they wanted to take some time off of the clock and not get into their true offense until a little later in the shot clock so this was a way to get some "movement" but still get the ball back to the original position to start the offense. Maybe?
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:21 PM
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Of all the things I have to complain about with this team, the offense ain't it.
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan View Post
Our Dayton Flyers, #20 in the country in assists per game, and tops in the A-10. Something must be working right.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketbal...rrent/team/216

That's because we only run this play a few times a game.



Originally Posted by CT Flyer View Post
I did notice this same play multiple times and it sort of had me scratching my head as well. The best I can come up with is they wanted to take some time off of the clock and not get into their true offense until a little later in the shot clock so this was a way to get some "movement" but still get the ball back to the original position to start the offense. Maybe?

I also thought that this looked like the old UCLA stall offense.


Originally Posted by rollo View Post
Sir Gazoo, with all due respect, you're micromanaging the big picture. One possession does not define the concept of looking for a defensive lapse.

Nobody is asking for basketball to not evolve. I'm just saying: I don't see any possibility of how this play will develop into a defensive lapse. Me and my 12 year old daughter could defend this play without difficulty (up to the point of the return pass).
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