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Old 02-17-2018, 10:19 AM
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the 1970-71 Flyers were led by seniors

Peeps, some of this I googled to get the specific stats.. some of this I am relying on memory also...

in the 1970-71 basketball season, the Dayton Flyers had a nice season - finishing 18-9 and being invited to the NIT when the NIT meant something.. They were senior heavy, and had 2 starters (nearly three!) who AVERAGED double/doubles each game!: Ken May 18.9 pts 7.3 rebs, Tom Crosswhite 18.1 pts 10.2 rebs, tough as nails George Jackson 14.3 pts 14.5 rebs..they had a fierce schedule, with Don Donoher not flinching in playing anybody, anywhere..

included in the schedule were games at #1 UCLA (lost by 24 - in press interview one of Donoher's best quotes "only by playing the very best can we truly judge where we are), #16 Louisville home and away (lost by 2 away - lost by 5 at home), #9 Western Kentucky (with 7 footer Jim McDaniels 24pts per game, 15 rebs per game) won by 3, at #19 Notre Dame lost by 1.. overall a very nice season by our Flyers, went to NIT and lost to Duke I believe... okay, our seniors graduate. But many fans would show up early to the games and watch our UD Frosh team because mainly of this one young man from Dayton Roth, named Donald Smith.. Freshman could not play with varsity and it was pure enjoyment watching Smitty just light it up! we would see 2 games for the price of one..

the next 2 seasons, the Dayton Flyers struggle finishing 13-13 each season (if we played non Div 1 games, they are not included) what was the problem? our leadership from our strong seniors were gone, and we just could not win on the road... 2-8, and 3-8 the next 2 seasons on the road... BUT, we would get hints, glimpses of some very talented players that would just make you look in amazement and wonder, just how good can this team become with the right combination? so, while we were struggling, greatly struggling - there was hope... It was during the 1972-73 season, believe late Jan or early Feb, when Donald Smith scored 56 points against Loyola (before there was a 3 pt rule.. he had several long range bombs.. would of easily scored over 60).. it was at Loyola, and at the end the fans gave Smitty a huge ovation.. so back to back seasons of 13-13, and for most of the time, we just cannot win on the road...

Don Donoher brings in a freshman from Detroit called Johnny Davis, to be Donald Smith's backcourt mate... now we are in the 1973-74 Flyers and they get better as the season progresses.. My goodness, when all players are on the same page, they are blowing teams away.. #29 St Johns (with Mel Utley and Ed Searcy) come to UD and we rip them by 24..Cincinnati (with Lloyd Batts) comes to UD, and we win by 12, we go TO #15 South Carolina and , although we lost by 12 or so, on TV coach Frank McGuire says "Dayton is downright scary! and who is this Mike Sylvestry kid!!" and I was in the stand when #2 Notre Dame (John Shumate, Adrian Dantley, Gary Brokaw, Dwight Clay) come to UD and we rip by 15.. in the NCAA, we have the thrilling 3OT loss to UCLA

so, I am trying to make a case for look for the good things, those glimmers that show us what might become a regular thing... I have seen this before, and know that when all the pieces fall into place, great things can happen.. this season is what it is, but really all of us knew that already.. they are what we expected... it will be fun to see how this team develops.. I feel we need to give Coach Grant time, to bring in players and refill the cupboard..

just some memories of the seasons right before Johnny Davis and the final piece of the puzzle...)
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:10 AM
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Watching the URI backcourt of Matthews and Terrell and the St Bonnies back court of Mobley and Adams last night, I had to think of some of our best back courts. Davis and Smith has to be one of the best.

It was tough to follow the Flyers then. I had graduated, lived elsewhere, and this was pre-Internet. Scratchy radio, the occasional television appearance, and the sports pages were about it.
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Old 02-17-2018, 01:24 PM
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I graduated from UD in 1969 then attended veterinary school at Penn in Philadelphia from 69-73. Therefore I saw the Henry Finkle, Don May, Glinder Torrain, Rudy Waterman, Bobby Joe Hooper, Dan Sadler, Jim and Jerry Gottschall, etc. days of NCAA and NIT fame. Then I was in Big 5 territory to watch the Philadelphia teams battle at the Palestra (on Penn's campus). It was during those 4 years that Penn went far in the NCAA with Corky Calhoun and Villanova almost beat UCLA in the finals. Funny that I can remember those details and can't remember dates and birthday's with the Mrs...
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:12 PM
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Thanks for the trip down my 4 years at UD. I remember:
- going to the freshman games to see the next stars
- going up to ND in 71 we miss a shot and a couple of tip ins at the buzzer that would have sent us to the NCAA tourney
- the '74 victory against ND where one of our porch couches was offered up to the Marianist gods in celebration at Kiefaber & Lawnview

Johnny Davis certainly was the difference maker that year, but some of our bigs became adequate at the same time.

Right now, we need more "bigs". Not a knock on Josh - he just needs help inside. He's an undersized center playing with 4 guards.
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:36 PM
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Thanks, all, for the reminder that there is still hope.

Lifelong Flyer fan, whose seat for tonight’s game is in the same location as the seat from which I watched that 97-82 beat down of #2 ND back in ‘74. And my housemates and I lost 2 couches at Kiefaber and Lawnview in March of ‘84, when I was a senior (1 after Oklahoma; 1 after Washington).

I vaguely remember the teams of the late ‘60s & early ‘70s (Obravac, Sadlier, Jackson, Crosswhite, & Kenny May were among my favorite players), but the ‘73-‘74 team was what got me hooked. Hometown hero Smitty, his backcourt mate Johnny D (who had my mom as a prof for a class), the always-intense Sly, the hard-working Allen Elijah, and the rest of that squad captured my imagination, my heart, and my soul. It proved that little, ol’ UD could compete with anyone. And that great team from my senior year (Velvet, Schelly, Ed, and the rest) did it all over again.

I agree that better days are ahead. Yes, this season is a bit of a disappointment, but when you consider the parallels to the 1971-72 team, they shouldn’t have been totally unexpected.

To the players who don’t want to be part of this team, this family, any more: please move on, and best wishes for your future.
To the players who DO want to be UD Flyers: we got your back. We are UD.

Thanks for the reminder, steverino015.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill202 View Post
Thanks for the trip down my 4 years at UD. I remember:
- going to the freshman games to see the next stars
- going up to ND in 71 we miss a shot and a couple of tip ins at the buzzer that would have sent us to the NCAA tourney
- the '74 victory against ND where one of our porch couches was offered up to the Marianist gods in celebration at Kiefaber & Lawnview

Johnny Davis certainly was the difference maker that year, but some of our bigs became adequate at the same time.

Right now, we need more "bigs". Not a knock on Josh - he just needs help inside. He's an undersized center playing with 4 guards.
Took Von Lehman finally performing as a senior with Joe Fisher sharing center duties and Alen Elijah with a year of varsity experience too. Without the inside game those three brought, I don't think Johnny Davis would've made much of a difference in the record. Though looking at the 1972-1973 roster, it's obvious that PG was a problem and is amazing what Donald Smith accomplished being the only real guard in the starting lineup.
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:04 PM
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It all came together in 1973-74, and the biggest reason was the addition of Johnny Davis.. Bill Walton called him the quickest player he saw in college that year, especailly his first 10 foot burst.. He had the ability of beating double teams and full court pressure by himself...

the extra year of experience was big for the players, but actually John Von Lehman and Joe Fisher's numbers decreased from 1972 to 1973, while Allen Elijah became a double double machine..
John Von Lehman 1972 8.3 ppg, 7.3 reb - 1973 6.2 ppg 7.1 reb....
Joe Fisher 1972 5.1 ppg 5.7 reb... - 1973 5.1 ppg 4.0 reb...
Allen Elijah 1972 6.5 ppg 7.2 reb...- 1973 10.7 ppg 10.0 reb...
Johnny Davis freshman 1973 14.3 ppg 3.7 reb

this doesn't diminish the contribution of each and every Flyer, it was magic that year and they just got better and better.. we all remember Joe Fisher making every shot against UCLA, every field goal and free throw attempt...

but Johnny Davis was the key - he brought something to the team they did not have the prior 2 seasons of 13-13.. it gave UD the best backcourt in the nation that year IMO, and something other teams had to account for... This opened the door up inside for the bigs..

but, no matter.. we can all point to areas where the Flyers improved, gained experience and that's fine... as it should be... the main thing is, it took Don Donoher 3 years after losing his seniors to rebuild the team.. patience.... lets see what team Coach Grant builds, see how he forms and defines it...

Last edited by steverino015; 02-17-2018 at 06:13 PM..
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Thanks, all, for the reminder that there is still hope.

Lifelong Flyer fan, whose seat for tonight’s game is in the same location as the seat from which I watched that 97-82 beat down of #2 ND back in ‘74. And my housemates and I lost 2 couches at Kiefaber and Lawnview in March of ‘84, when I was a senior (1 after Oklahoma; 1 after Washington).

I vaguely remember the teams of the late ‘60s & early ‘70s (Obravac, Sadlier, Jackson, Crosswhite, & Kenny May were among my favorite players), but the ‘73-‘74 team was what got me hooked. Hometown hero Smitty, his backcourt mate Johnny D (who had my mom as a prof for a class), the always-intense Sly, the hard-working Allen Elijah, and the rest of that squad captured my imagination, my heart, and my soul. It proved that little, ol’ UD could compete with anyone. And that great team from my senior year (Velvet, Schelly, Ed, and the rest) did it all over again.

I agree that better days are ahead. Yes, this season is a bit of a disappointment, but when you consider the parallels to the 1971-72 team, they shouldn’t have been totally unexpected.

To the players who don’t want to be part of this team, this family, any more: please move on, and best wishes for your future.
To the players who DO want to be UD Flyers: we got your back. We are UD.

Thanks for the reminder, steverino015.
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I remember an announcer speaking with John Wooden after the incredible triple overtime game... He said something like "I just had a gut feeling that some how, some way, we would win this game".. then the announcer asked him if he knew about Dayton before the game... oh the expression on his face, one of incredulous... he said paraphrasing "what?! of course I know about Dayton, a wonderfully put together team.. one of college basketball's best kept secrets... chuckling he said - I suppose not anymore"... he had several very good things to say, felt honored to be a part of the game, too bad there had to be a loser.. great game

and I absolutely agree, those players chuckling on the bench, who do not want to be a part of this team and contribute, I wish them well, but please move on.. and like you said, I can't say it any better: To the players who DO want to be UD Flyers: we got your back. We are UD.

Last edited by steverino015; 02-17-2018 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 02-17-2018, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by steverino015 View Post
It all came together in 1973-74, and the biggest reason was the addition of Johnny Davis.. Bill Walton called him the quickest player he saw in college that year, especailly his first 10 foot burst.. He had the ability of beating double teams and full court pressure by himself...

the extra year of experience was big for the players, but actually John Von Lehman and Joe Fisher's numbers decreased from 1972 to 1973, while Allen Elijah became a double double machine..
John Von Lehman 1972 8.3 ppg, 7.3 reb - 1973 6.2 ppg 7.1 reb....
Joe Fisher 1972 5.1 ppg 5.7 reb... - 1973 5.1 ppg 4.0 reb...
Allen Elijah 1972 6.5 ppg 7.2 reb...- 1973 10.7 ppg 10.0 reb...
Johnny Davis freshman 1973 14.3 ppg 3.7 reb

this doesn't diminish the contribution of each and every Flyer, it was magic that year and they just got better and better.. we all remember Joe Fisher making every shot against UCLA, every field goal and free throw attempt...

but Johnny Davis was the key - he brought something to the team they did not have the prior 2 seasons of 13-13.. it gave UD the best backcourt in the nation that year IMO, and something other teams had to account for... This opened the door up inside for the bigs..

but, no matter.. we can all point to areas where the Flyers improved, gained experience and that's fine... as it should be... the main thing is, it took Don Donoher 3 years after losing his seniors to rebuild the team.. patience.... lets see what team Coach Grant builds, see how he forms and defines it...
I agree that Johnny Davis was key, no doubt as they didn't have a real PG until then. But what kept Smitty and Sly's junior season from being a successful one wasn't because of the seniors leaving 2 years earlier but Jack Kill leaving after his sophomore season. I can't remember, was Smitty our PG that season?
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I agree that Johnny Davis was key, no doubt as they didn't have a real PG until then. But what kept Smitty and Sly's junior season from being a successful one wasn't because of the seniors leaving 2 years earlier but Jack Kill leaving after his sophomore season. I can't remember, was Smitty our PG that season?
Pretty sure Smitty was our PG his first 2 varsity seasons. I remember the backcourt being so scarce that Donoher tried Sylvester at SG, because they were deeper in the frontcourt than the backcourt. Obviously, that wasn’t the solution.

EDIT: Checked the Media Guide. Kill was the PG for the 1971-72 season. Smitty was SG, and in the frontcourt we had Sylvester, Grigsby, Von Lehman, and Bitter as our top 4. Gardecki and Gahm spelled Smitty and Kill. But Gardecki graduated, Kill didn’t come back, and we had no newcomers, so we were short on backcourt players in 1972-73. That’s why Donoher had to play Sylvester at SG in 1972-73. He had to have his best 5 players on the court.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
Pretty sure Smitty was our PG his first 2 varsity seasons. I remember the backcourt being so scarce that Donoher tried Sylvester at SG, because they were deeper in the frontcourt than the backcourt. Obviously, that wasn’t the solution.
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Wow, that makes Smitty's accomplishments that much more impressive to me. But I thought Kill was the PG along with Rex Gardecki in Smitty's sophomore season.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
Wow, that makes Smitty's accomplishments that much more impressive to me. But I thought Kill was the PG along with Rex Gardecki in Smitty's sophomore season.
You’re right. See my Edit above. But cut me some slack! I was only 10 at the time!
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 View Post
You’re right. See my Edit above. But cut me some slack! I was only 10 at the time!
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Hey, I was only 13 and my memory isn't any better. I know I was too young to understand how important a point guard was back then.

Heck, Jack Kill was Trent Meacham before Trent Meacham. Both caused our best offensive weapon to have to play point.

Last edited by Smitty10; 02-17-2018 at 10:41 PM..
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
I agree that Johnny Davis was key, no doubt as they didn't have a real PG until then. But what kept Smitty and Sly's junior season from being a successful one wasn't because of the seniors leaving 2 years earlier but Jack Kill leaving after his sophomore season. I can't remember, was Smitty our PG that season?
it was both the seniors 2 years earlier AND Jack Kill... you simply cannot discount losing 3 players to graduation who will make it to the UD Hall Of Fame, and the numbers we lost with Tom Crosswhite, Ken May and George Jackson: total 51 points and 32 rebounds a game.. we outrebounded the opponents by 240, UD averaged 50 rebounds a game, our opposition averaged 41... this was 1970-71

move forward to 1971-72 we have Smitty and jack Kill at backcourt, and now we have Mike Sylvester, John Bitter and John Von Lehman with JD Grigsby also.. the prior year, we outrebound the opposition by 240.. in the 1971-72 season, the opposition outrebounds UD by 90, a full 330 rebound swing... UD averaged 45 rebounds a game, down from 50.. the opposition averaged 48, way up from 41 the prior season...

losing the seniors was every bit as important as losing jack Kill...

move forward once more to 1972-73.. Jack Kill transfers hurting us, as was stated earlier Don Donoher plays the best 5 players as starters: Smitty, Sly, JD Grigsby, Allen Elijah and John Von Lehman.. Joe Fisher gets minutes.. we still get outrebounded by the opponents but the gap closes.. we get outrebounded by approx 40, team scoring virtually the same for UD and opponents..

the magic year of 1973-74.. Allen Elijah now has become a double double machine and, for a brief moment during the season, was leading the nation in rebounding... we get the back court mate for Donald Smith - Johnny Davis... Once again, we are outrebounding the opposition by 80 for the season, a 120 rebound swing in our favor.. now we are also outscoring the opponents 76.6 per game to 70.4 - scoring 180 more points....

on a side note, it was during this season that I saw one of the most physical picks in my life, when Jim Testerman put a pick on Xavier's Gary Diedrick and dropped him, legally, like a bad habit.. Dayton ran X out of the building, winning by 31 points...

so, it was losing the seniors and jack kill in consecutive years... it took 2 years to recover from both..

side note 2: it was during this stretch that one of the most crowd favorite players of all time, Steve Lawrence, played for UD.... he hustled, he tried his darndest, always giving his all and the crowed loved him... he fouled a LOT, bless his heart... sometimes I could swear he would be called for 2 fouls and the national anthem hadn't even finished yet, but give his very best? ABSOLUTELY!!... )
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:28 AM
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this has been one of the most enjoyable threads, reliving the memories... the crowd when we slapped Notre Dame was probably the loudest I have ever heard UD arena.. I said it going home to Dad, and I still believe it: on that night, at home at UD Arena, we would of beaten any team in the nation, and I include UCLA.. it would not of been triple overtime, we would of sent them packing in regulation.....

we had some incredible huge lead in the 2nd half and Donoher put in his bench, with lots of time left.. we must of been up by over 20 at one point, maybe 25 - 30 points? if memory serves me, one of the joys was seeing Jerome Holland come off the bench for Allen Elijah and he dominated! scoring around 16 or so off the bench and getting every rebound... great job by Jerome off the bench in that game...)
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:59 AM
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I went to every home game, except one that year. Jack Kill was no big loss. You talk about a shoot first point guard, that was Kill. The kid was a gunner, as they said back in the day, never seeing a shot he did not like. He was more of a 2 guard, but back then many teams started two guards, not a PG per se.

Starters in '71-72 were Grigsby (sometimes John Bitner), Pat Murnen, Smith, Sly, and usually Gardecki or Bertke, and sometimes Kill. Gardecki was a great player but hurt his knee in HS, back when knee surgery could not fix it. He missed several games that year. That was the big tragedy.

Pat Murnen was a class act, and great student. A great defender, and at 6'5'' could play guard and defend guards. Pat never got his due, because he rarely shot, but was good at every aspect of basketball.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:37 PM
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‘71-‘72 was my senior year but I didn’t make every home game, Jack. I still have two tickets to the February 26, 1972 home game against Southwestern Louisiana — now Louisiana Lafayette— when Southwestern Louisiana was ranked 10th in the country. I use them as bookmarks but they are falling apart.

I came down with the flu. We lost 106-83. Still regret missing that one.

We likely met. I was an RA at Stuart Hall that year.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by udx2 View Post
‘71-‘72 was my senior year but I didn’t make every home game, Jack. I still have two tickets to the February 26, 1972 home game against Southwestern Louisiana — now Louisiana Lafayette— when Southwestern Louisiana was ranked 10th in the country. I use them as bookmarks but they are falling apart.

I came down with the flu. We lost 106-83. Still regret missing that one.

We likely met. I was an RA at Stuart Hall that year.
Southwest Louisiana... umm what was his name, one of the leading scorers in the nation - Dwight Lamar? didn't he average around 35 points a game, something just crazy - an incredible basketball player...
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by udx2 View Post
‘71-‘72 was my senior year but I didn’t make every home game, Jack. I still have two tickets to the February 26, 1972 home game against Southwestern Louisiana — now Louisiana Lafayette— when Southwestern Louisiana was ranked 10th in the country. I use them as bookmarks but they are falling apart.

I came down with the flu. We lost 106-83. Still regret missing that one.

We likely met. I was an RA at Stuart Hall that year.
You missed a great performance by Bo Dwight Lamar, but a poor game by our Flyers. Lamar averaged 36 points a game and was a first team AA. That kid could elevate and shoot. I think he put up about 48 that night. They also had another good player, Ebron, who averaged 23 pts and 14 rebounds.

The game I had to miss because of a class conflict was our great upset of a highly ranked Western KY?
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by steverino015 View Post

side note 2: it was during this stretch that one of the most crowd favorite players of all time, Steve Lawrence, played for UD.... he hustled, he tried his darndest, always giving his all and the crowed loved him... he fouled a LOT, bless his heart... sometimes I could swear he would be called for 2 fouls and the national anthem hadn't even finished yet, but give his very best? ABSOLUTELY!!... )
Steve was loved by Flyer fans! I remember the explosive reaction when he entered the game!

Something that I didn’t know until I read it on his LinkedIn page is that he played for the Washington Generals in ‘73-‘74. So, I guess you could say that he made it to the pros.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jack72 View Post
You missed a great performance by Bo Dwight Lamar, but a poor game by our Flyers. Lamar averaged 36 points a game and was a first team AA. That kid could elevate and shoot. I think he put up about 48 that night. They also had another good player, Ebron, who averaged 23 pts and 14 rebounds.

The game I had to miss because of a class conflict was our great upset of a highly ranked Western KY?
I was at that game and will never forget the show Bo put on. I also distinctly remember a play where UD lost the handle on a ball that would be over and back and the UD player was following the ball waiting for a SWL player to touch it and then try to grab control back, Lamar zipped to the ball and and in one motion flipped it up for the score.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:47 AM
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I’m too young to know the reason(s), but the season that XW is experiencing this year seems to be kind of parallel to the season John Bitter had when he was a senior in 1972-73. As a junior in 1971-72, he came close to averaging a double-double, with averages of 9.2 PPG and 9.5 RPG, while playing in all 26 games. So, he should have had a solid senior campaign, right? Wrong. 2.3 PPG and 2.2 RPG, in only 17 (out of 26) games.

What happened with Bitter? Dunno. But the likes of X’s slide have been seen around these parts before.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:50 AM
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don't have the article in front of me, but Trey was quoted in the Dayton Daily News as saying he and X talk every day.. He tells X time and again, that it all begins in practice.. that is where your minutes come from..

so, whatever injury he has experienced... what ever the situation, he can get it back - but it must begin, it has to begin with a practice full of intensity.. Trey is telling him that.. show that fire to the coach

Trey is right, hope X takes the advise to heart.. without knowing the details, great job Trey
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