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03-20-2023, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer
He was a very good player for Evansville and was the first to throw the ball off of Coffee's face. I believe he had a game where he score 40+ against us the year after Scott Haffner scored 64 against us.
Flyer98 I was not pointing that question at you, I was sincerely asking if people thought the same about him as Mack. I wonder if Schreffler was apologetic or felt any guilt over his role in the incident.
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I knew there was a reason that name rang a bell. The way I remember it, those of us at The Hills that day thought it should be a technical, but we weren't thinking he did it on purpose. When Mack did it, it was obviously deliberate. Consequently, most people think Mack did it both times. I guess old Scott Schreffler gets the short end of the UD Pride hate stick.
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03-20-2023, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
Well first of all, I'd imagine that if ole Wes was in a bar, talking to his brother, after a few drinks, he might still admit he'd like to play a pickup game with Mack and maybe throw him the ball high and tight; maybe not.
Second, if Mack went on to become a priest or minister, I'd probably be more forgiving; but since his teams generally played like punks at X...let's just say I take the apology letter with a grain of salt. Besides what kind of idiot would Coffee look like if he said something like "yeah, it's been over 30 years and I still hate the SOB"?
I just don't like Mack ok? Can that not be enough?
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As the old song says, "You're gonna carry that weight a long time."
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03-20-2023, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
The fact we are even discussing Mack coming to UD says quite a bit.... and how insignificant we are if we don't have a better pool pool of candidates with less ties to Xavier and bad history with those who were at that game.
This is going to be a long off-season.
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Current students don’t even know X was a rival. People I went to school with didn’t even know who Mack was until he was the X coach. Holding onto a “rivalry” with X that they (X) don’t care about is pointless
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03-20-2023, 11:05 PM
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Well good news is there was no announcement about AG. It looks like a lot of made up stories. Looking forward to having AG back for the foreseeable future.
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03-20-2023, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by podcast411
Well good news is there was no announcement about AG. It looks like a lot of made up stories. Looking forward to having AG back for the foreseeable future.
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Yep, dancing in the streets should be taking place
in the cities of
Philly, Olean, Richmond, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis, New York, Kingston, Davidson, Fairfax, Washington and Amherst.
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03-21-2023, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by podcast411
Well good news is there was no announcement about AG. It looks like a lot of made up stories. Looking forward to having AG back for the foreseeable future.
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Doesn't mean the stories were made up. We don't know if he was considering stepping down or not. It just means he decided not to step down.
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03-21-2023, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
Doesn't mean the stories were made up. We don't know if he was considering stepping down or not. It just means he decided not to step down.
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It doesn't even mean that. It doesn't mean anything, other than nothing has happened with any players or coaches that we know of.
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03-21-2023, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
Doesn't mean the stories were made up. We don't know if he was considering stepping down or not. It just means he decided not to step down.
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If the stories are not based upon fact and only rumors then they are made up.
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03-21-2023, 08:52 AM
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Forget hiring a Xavier guy, I wouldn't hire a coach who's stepped foot in Hamilton County
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03-21-2023, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by TA111
If the stories are not based upon fact and only rumors then they are made up.
Posted via Mobile Device
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Doesn't matter to the ones that believe they are true. They say things like the AG's job is in flux - implying or stating Neil has to hurry up and make a statement when there is perhaps no statement to be made.
Trusting your own view of the world with exactly 0 inside information causes one to believe their fantasies are actually truths and worse yet that everyone else thinks like they do. They then use those 'truths' to prove the ship is sinking etc. That's called circular reasoning and is the only reasoning used sometimes by the armchair few.
From my memory, AG was hired later than 3/18 and somehow still managed to bring in Obi and Jalen from the HS pool and that turned out just fine.
If you believe the worst of all possibilities on all fronts than you think the program is on the brink of destruction and the end of the UD BB world is here.
3 of the last 4 years AG has competed for regular season and conference championships winning 1. In that same time he has competed for NCAA bids winning one in the greatest season UD has seen in at least 50 years and missed 2 others each by 1/2 of basketball.
From what I remember of Neil's statement, he isn't the one saying it has to be 4/6 or 5/6. Another of their created fantasies they state as facts.
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03-21-2023, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by podcast411
Well good news is there was no announcement about AG. It looks like a lot of made up stories. Looking forward to having AG back for the foreseeable future.
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Why? Could you give some reasons?
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03-21-2023, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by TA111
If the stories are not based upon fact and only rumors then they are made up.
Posted via Mobile Device
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We would be grossly naive to think that we have all of the facts. I’m not really sure that it matters if AG seriously considered stepping away. Whether it’s AG considering a change or a player who considered the portal, I just hope the individual makes a decision, commits to it, and gives full effort.
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03-21-2023, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by TA111
If the stories are not based upon fact and only rumors then they are made up.
Posted via Mobile Device
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I am curious, why is this story made up? Grant isn't a spring chicken, had a family tragedy, and hasn't met program expectations the last few years. Each site reported someone close to the program as the source. Just because we don't like what is being reported, doesn't mean its not true. He may have considered it and decided to stay. I am not sure why this is something a few see as being made up.
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03-21-2023, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
From what I remember of Neil's statement, he isn't the one saying it has to be 4/6 or 5/6. Another of their created fantasies they state as facts.
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We are wanting to make the ncaat more often than not. Even if we don't count years 1 and 2, we are behind schedule. We should be at at least 2/6 or 3/6 right now.
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03-21-2023, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer
Forget hiring a Xavier guy, I wouldn't hire a coach who's stepped foot in Hamilton County
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John Brannen says hello.
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03-21-2023, 10:03 AM
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"A: We have high expectations. Coach Grant has been absolutely exceptional to work with. I have a tremendous amount of confidence in him and the staff. We have a very experienced coaching staff. Really, nothing's changed in regard to our program expectations. We understand, and Coach understands the standards of excellence necessary to meet those expectations, which is to compete for conference championships and advance in the NCAA tournament."
You can't advance in the tournament if you never make it to the tournament. We have also not won any conference championships. No one ever said 4/6 or 5/6 was the requirement. I believe it was stated more often than not at another time, which would at least indicate 50% or higher success in making the tournament.
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03-21-2023, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2
We are wanting to make the ncaat more often than not. Even if we don't count years 1 and 2, we are behind schedule. We should be at at least 2/6 or 3/6 right now.
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So is that what Neil said? I'm asking as I don't remember him putting any numbers/pcts to it and I couldn't find the actual quotes.
I could be wrong but I remember him use the word 'competing' without a percentage mentioned. I remember thinking that the statement was worded intentionally vague in it's strong statement which isn't uncommon.
If I am remembering correctly, AG has been successful based on the wording the last 4 years and all the claims that AG is failing his boss would not be correct.
Thanks for the quote TX. The statement doesn't say win conference championships it says compete which the team has done 3 of the past 4 years. It also doesn't say how many bids or wins equals success. They can't be penalized for 2020 where they have won 4-6 games and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
An unbiased person could look at the last 4 years along with all factors that play into results and conclude that AG has had some success and is improving the program and is the best course of action for long term stability and growth and thus AG should stay.
I can't believe anyone in the UD program is content with the results of the last 4 years. Keeping AG for another year or more doesn't prove that in any way. It is possible to be disappointed but hopeful at the same time with the current staff and approach.
Last edited by Marysville Flyer; 03-21-2023 at 10:08 AM..
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03-21-2023, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
So is that what Neil said? I'm asking as I don't remember him putting any numbers/pcts to it and I couldn't find the actual quotes.
I could be wrong but I remember him use the word 'competing' without a percentage mentioned. I remember thinking that the statement was worded intentionally vague in it's strong statement which isn't uncommon.
If I am remembering correctly, AG has been successful based on the wording the last 4 years and all the claims that AG is failing his boss would not be correct.
Thanks for the quote TX. The statement doesn't say win conference championships it says compete which the team has done 3 of the past 4 years. It also doesn't say how many bids or wins equals success. They can't be penalized for 2020 where they have won 4-6 games and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
An unbiased person could look at the last 4 years along with all factors that play into results and conclude that AG has had some success and is improving the program and is the best course of action for long term stability and growth and thus AG should stay.
I can't believe anyone in the UD program is content with the results of the last 4 years. Keeping AG for another year or more doesn't prove that in any way. It is possible to be disappointed but hopeful at the same time with the current staff and approach.
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There may be a few disingenuous folks who won't include 2020, but nearly everyone agrees we were in and that should count as making it. However, you cannot ignore the second half of the quote, which is to advance in the NCAA tournament. Allowing for one entry with only speculation as to outcome, in the other 5 years, we have not even made it, let alone advanced.
The program is not moving forward. It moved forward in year 3, and has subsequently regressed. The momentum from that year was not built upon, and the best recruiting class in UD history has not made the tournament in it's two years. This is not an ascending program. It's an underachieving one. Whether AG is the person to continue to lead it is debatable. Assuming he continues as head coach, another year without accomplishing either of those two goals should be more than sufficient to warrant an exit.
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03-21-2023, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan
There may be a few disingenuous folks who won't include 2020, but nearly everyone agrees we were in and that should count as making it. However, you cannot ignore the second half of the quote, which is to advance in the NCAA tournament. Allowing for one entry with only speculation as to outcome, in the other 5 years, we have not even made it, let alone advanced.
The program is not moving forward. It moved forward in year 3, and has subsequently regressed. The momentum from that year was not built upon, and the best recruiting class in UD history has not made the tournament in it's two years. This is not an ascending program. It's an underachieving one. Whether AG is the person to continue to lead it is debatable. Assuming he continues as head coach, another year without accomplishing either of those two goals should be more than sufficient to warrant an exit.
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I agree with most of this in spirit and would agree with Neil if he chose to cut AG loose this year as I have no idea if in private Neil put specifics to the general language he quoted to the public. I could accept Neil saying AG hadn't met the program's expectations.
Where I differ from you and others is I don't put the same weight on each made or missed bid. Missing 2 additional opportunities for bids and possible wins each by a single half of basketball does not paint the same picture of the state of the program as finishing 10-8 or worse in conference the past 2 years.
I also don't look at scenarios of one and done as an 11 seed the same as a 1 seed and expected potential for a FF or better. Neil in his public statement made it clear he doesn't either when he used the word advance.
That's why I am fine with AG as coach at least 1 more year. I'd be 100% fine with others that don't see it that way but not if they are saying something Neil didn't say to support their reasons.
As an example, using Neil's public statement, you could argue AM was only 2/6 not 4/6. I think it would be misusing Neil's words to do that. I just think others that are done with AG are doing this very thing, misusing Neil's actual words, to make their case.
If a person can't even see this as a possible way to interpret things, they are 100% closed minded on the topic.
Last edited by Marysville Flyer; 03-21-2023 at 10:36 AM..
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03-21-2023, 11:15 AM
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Back in the 70's the UD stated goal was making the ncaa 3 of 5 years.
So really nothing has changed goal wise in the past 50 years.
The reality is 90 plus percent of the time they haven't met that goal.
There have only been 2 coaches fired Donoher and O'Brien. Donoher
after 3 years of below .500 records and O'Brien 2 year train wreck.
The have never acted by firing a coach for missing stated goals.
Will they now? Who knows. But don't be shocked if they don't.
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03-21-2023, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
I am curious, why is this story made up? Grant isn't a spring chicken, had a family tragedy, and hasn't met program expectations the last few years. Each site reported someone close to the program as the source. Just because we don't like what is being reported, doesn't mean its not true. He may have considered it and decided to stay. I am not sure why this is something a few see as being made up.
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Have you not been living in the US for the past 6 years? An unnamed source, is no source. Alot of Twitter is people making their own news and then watching it spread like wildfire in hope that if it gains enough momentum it will become reality. Let me add that this is what I SUSPECT, since I don't know the facts, but at least I am willing to admit it.
Last edited by Flyers98; 03-21-2023 at 11:31 AM..
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03-21-2023, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
3 of the last 4 years AG has competed for regular season and conference championships winning 1. In that same time he has competed for NCAA bids winning one in the greatest season UD has seen in at least 50 years and missed 2 others each by 1/2 of basketball.
Another of their created fantasies they state as facts.
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Speaking of creating fantasies as facts.
UD did not get a bid (or winning one if I understand your statement) in the greatest season in the last 50 years. Yes there were discussions between talking heads about the possibility of earning a 1 seed .... but alas none of that really happened. There is no NCAA literature that covers all the teams selected for the T that year, no official NCAA bracket as part of the NCAA college basketball history. Again the talking heads and others had there own projected brackets but in the end there was NADA, ZIP, BAM!, to point to.
So UD did not win anything. Fans may carry that hoped for selection in their collective minds from now till eternity but it is maybe a sign of how desperate the base is to be relevant in the discussions amongst peers of being IN the Tournament.
As for almost earning a bid except for 1/2 of a BB game well that doesn't count for any thing either.
As the movie quote says, "SHOW ME THE MONEY!"
Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan
There may be a few disingenuous folks who won't include 2020, but nearly everyone agrees we were in and that should count as making it.
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This statement reeks of desperation too. Since many claimed we would be in (which was a good thing I agree) we nor anyone else was in the 2020 NCAA T. PERIOD. So counting as "making it" seems a little slanted toward desperation to be included in discussions of OUR team was in the T while we watch those that actually have been in since and currently watching on TV the episode of teams such as FDU, St Peters (last year), Princeton, Zags', etc.
Next time I'm in the arena I'll look for that banner that lists the years we have been in the T and see if it lists the 2020 year or the years we missed by only 1/2 a game. Likely those years will have an * nearby somewhere describing those important details explaining what we did .
Our record, Grants record is what it is. Nothing more can be read into it as the facts are what they are. If he stays he stays, if he goes, he goes, if he decides to step away he steps away.
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03-21-2023, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
Doesn't mean the stories were made up. We don't know if he was considering stepping down or not. It just means he decided not to step down.
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I guess it also doesn't mean that AG isn't about to be named Head Coach and GM of the Lakers. You can't put something out on the internet, with no attribution and then demand that others prove it false. I mean you can and people do it everyday but there is reliable, fact based information in the world and then there is everything else.
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03-21-2023, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
Why? Could you give some reasons?
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Because it just goes to show the rumors were nothing more than rumors. Spread by those with a hard on to get AG out. (also known as idiots). Just nice to see their Bubble pop.
Now lets get on to looking at the recruiting trail and watching the Transfer portal. And we can start to speculate on who might be leaving this year.
Holmes, Camara, Amzil - likely all to turn pro. But it would be nice to see all 3 come back.
There are others likely to transfer that are getting no playing time when the bench was paper thin. And in those cases - they will open up a spot for potentially getting that end of game player that demands the ball be in his hands so he can win the game or keep from losing it. Which this season we sorely needed said player.
But overall - we finished 2nd in the A-10 - made it to the finals of the A-10 and all this with a roster that had more injuries than any team I can remember from the past 40+ years.
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03-21-2023, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Furio
Back in the 70's the UD stated goal was making the ncaa 3 of 5 years.
So really nothing has changed goal wise in the past 50 years.
The reality is 90 plus percent of the time they haven't met that goal.
There have only been 2 coaches fired Donoher and O'Brien. Donoher
after 3 years of below .500 records and O'Brien 2 year train wreck.
The have never acted by firing a coach for missing stated goals.
Will they now? Who knows. But don't be shocked if they don't.
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Got to say, I don't ever remember a stated goal in the 70s and certainly didn't remember it being so lofty as 3 out of 5 years. In 1974, the final season UD made the NCAA in that decade(and until 1984) the field was only 25 teams. So if the goal was 3 out of every 5 years, then they set themselves up for failure.
But there's another caveat to Donoher in the 70s. UD made a decision not to be affiliated with any conference and obviously had no idea how that would bite them in the butt. The probably reevaluated what the should expect from Donoher when they realize their own decisions sabotaged the program.
Also, Donoher built up enough good will during his first 8 seasons or so that it took a long time for him to spend it. Due to the fields being so limited, the NIT was considered a success back then. It meant you were a top 50 team.
Every situation is different. And when you bring in a new coach and the success regresses, you have to look seriously at making a change. I've yet to hear of a new coach being hired and have his superiors say "We've been through a period of success that we haven't experienced before. We certainly don't expect that to continue."
When it comes right down to it, JOB's term seemed to be a continuation of diminishing returns that started those final 4 years of Donoher's reign. 1990 being one last bash with a large group of seniors. Since then there hasn't been a clear cut of diminishing returns until CAG's 6 seasons. The only clear cut jump in returns happened when OP took over from JOB and when AM took over from BG. Neither were fired.
Donoher was unique. He was there long enough to raise the program and then have diminishing returns. And he was fired. As said, JOB had a contination of those diminishing returns and was fired. The only coach that didn't seem to be clear cut either way was BG, he wasn't officially fired but from what I hear, encouraged to take a new job when offered. If AG doesn't turn this around in very short time(and that could mean by next year) he will be shown the door IMO. You can't shrug you shoulders and accept less success from a regime change.
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03-21-2023, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71
Speaking of creating fantasies as facts.
UD did not get a bid (or winning one if I understand your statement) in the greatest season in the last 50 years. Yes there were discussions between talking heads about the possibility of earning a 1 seed .... but alas none of that really happened. There is no NCAA literature that covers all the teams selected for the T that year, no official NCAA bracket as part of the NCAA college basketball history. Again the talking heads and others had there own projected brackets but in the end there was NADA, ZIP, BAM!, to point to.
So UD did not win anything. Fans may carry that hoped for selection in their collective minds from now till eternity but it is maybe a sign of how desperate the base is to be relevant in the discussions amongst peers of being IN the Tournament.
As for almost earning a bid except for 1/2 of a BB game well that doesn't count for any thing either.
As the movie quote says, "SHOW ME THE MONEY!"
This statement reeks of desperation too. Since many claimed we would be in (which was a good thing I agree) we nor anyone else was in the 2020 NCAA T. PERIOD. So counting as "making it" seems a little slanted toward desperation to be included in discussions of OUR team was in the T while we watch those that actually have been in since and currently watching on TV the episode of teams such as FDU, St Peters (last year), Princeton, Zags', etc.
Next time I'm in the arena I'll look for that banner that lists the years we have been in the T and see if it lists the 2020 year or the years we missed by only 1/2 a game. Likely those years will have an * nearby somewhere describing those important details explaining what we did .
Our record, Grants record is what it is. Nothing more can be read into it as the facts are what they are. If he stays he stays, if he goes, he goes, if he decides to step away he steps away.
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This is such a reach to discredit from a rational and reasonable perspective. It doesn't matter if UD got a 1 or 2 seed, that season was still the best in 50 years and likely ever.
As far as all the other things I said, I wasn't implying in any way that we should count the almosts.
My point is that we are a whole lot closer to meeting even the most spun understanding of Neil's expectations than we are 'declining' or 'on the brink'. So much hyperbole by those extremely vocal and redundant that want AG out - most of whom never wanted him in the first place but that isn't biasing them in the least.
It's understandable why they want to discuss only with hyperbole. I personally do not see much difference between the last 2 years (especially 21-22) and the last 2 years of AM's reign.
I'll be honest and open myself up for to all the 3rd grade 'idiot' labels I'll receive but for me 21-22 had so much promise of what it could be going into the Richmond game until Mali's injury led to a fall.
That team had real potential to make some noise in the tourney the way they had been playing most of the last 25 games collectively. It held more promise than the reality of the disappointments of the last 2 appearances we actually did have.
I don't look at getting in and falling flat on their faces with battle tested JRs and SRs as great success and 21-23 as total failure like some here do. The last 2 seasons were very, very close in their success or lack thereof realities but the 3/6 - 5/6 crowd refuse to acknowledge that as even a possible way to consider things. Emotion leads to that analysis and refuses rational alternatives to even be considered.
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03-21-2023, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Furio
Back in the 70's the UD stated goal was making the ncaa 3 of 5 years.
So really nothing has changed goal wise in the past 50 years.
The reality is 90 plus percent of the time they haven't met that goal.
There have only been 2 coaches fired Donoher and O'Brien. Donoher
after 3 years of below .500 records and O'Brien 2 year train wreck.
The have never acted by firing a coach for missing stated goals.
Will they now? Who knows. But don't be shocked if they don't.
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The question is does UD care more about hosting the tournament than being a part of it? Based on everything the program does, it certainly seems like the administration cares more about the former. This isn't a program that has any urgency to win now. If you want to know why the Big East will pass on us at the next opportunity, remember these inflection points and the inaction that took place.
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03-21-2023, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86
The question is does UD care more about hosting the tournament than being a part of it? Based on everything the program does, it certainly seems like the administration cares more about the former. This isn't a program that has any urgency to win now. If you want to know why the Big East will pass on us at the next opportunity, remember these inflection points and the inaction that took place.
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What is the rationale for saying they care more about hosting than being in? Those 2 are not mutually exclusive and are in no way connected. Just curious how you'd support that question with more than 'everything the program does'.
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03-21-2023, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Furio
Back in the 70's the UD stated goal was making the ncaa 3 of 5 years.
So really nothing has changed goal wise in the past 50 years.
The reality is 90 plus percent of the time they haven't met that goal.
There have only been 2 coaches fired Donoher and O'Brien. Donoher
after 3 years of below .500 records and O'Brien 2 year train wreck.
The have never acted by firing a coach for missing stated goals.
Will they now? Who knows. But don't be shocked if they don't.
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I could tell by Neil's inflection in his statement that he really meant it this time. This is what is so crazy about all the Anti AG arguments.
1.) The program isn't in the state those wanting him out make it out to be
2.) The goals that justify AG's ouster have only been met for 1 brief coaching stint in 50+
years
3.) AG has been very close and has come as close in the last 4 years of meeting even the
most strict interpretation of the expectations of any coach not AM in the past 50 years
4.) Any good leader will consider extenuating circumstances in their evaluation of a sub-
ordinate especially those out of their control or unprecedented in nature
At least Smitty will be happy. He clearly missed me for the one day I was kinda busy with life. Today, not as much. Shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
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03-21-2023, 12:33 PM
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It seems like there are a lot on this board looking for a nice guy to coach the team. Can I suggest Brother Fitz? I think he can also go to the tourney in 5 out of 6 years, the one year with Obi Toppin. Also, he is a great guy by anyone's measurements. Would probably do it for free, too, if we are looking at cutting expenses.
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03-21-2023, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71
This statement reeks of desperation too. Since many claimed we would be in (which was a good thing I agree) we nor anyone else was in the 2020 NCAA T. PERIOD. So counting as "making it" seems a little slanted toward desperation to be included in discussions of OUR team was in the T while we watch those that actually have been in since and currently watching on TV the episode of teams such as FDU, St Peters (last year), Princeton, Zags', etc.
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Sorry, I vehemently disagree with this. There's no world in which we aren't in the NCAA tournament in 2020, if it wasn't canceled. I don't care that it didn't happen. I don't care that we may or may not have been a 1 seed. Had it not been canceled, we were in, whether it's as a 1 or a 16. To say otherwise is disingenuous.
For the rest, I agree that whether you are 1 point away from being in or 100, if you're not in, you're not in. You don't get partial credit for being close to being in.
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03-21-2023, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by podcast411
Because it just goes to show the rumors were nothing more than rumors. Spread by those with a hard on to get AG out. (also known as idiots). Just nice to see their Bubble pop.
Now lets get on to looking at the recruiting trail and watching the Transfer portal. And we can start to speculate on who might be leaving this year.
Holmes, Camara, Amzil - likely all to turn pro. But it would be nice to see all 3 come back.
There are others likely to transfer that are getting no playing time when the bench was paper thin. And in those cases - they will open up a spot for potentially getting that end of game player that demands the ball be in his hands so he can win the game or keep from losing it. Which this season we sorely needed said player.
But overall - we finished 2nd in the A-10 - made it to the finals of the A-10 and all this with a roster that had more injuries than any team I can remember from the past 40+ years.
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Speaking of making s**t up, sheesh. There were multiple reports that had nothing to do with anyone on this board, no one from the old BBR, etc. They were reported by people who are not affiliated with Dayton and have no axe to grind. Simply people who report on possible coaching changes.
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03-21-2023, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
What is the rationale for saying they care more about hosting than being in? Those 2 are not mutually exclusive and are in no way connected. Just curious how you'd support that question with more than 'everything the program does'.
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I don't think anybody would argue the level of effort the administration (and others around the city) make to ensure UD continues to host the First Four and that the games go off without a hitch.
But what signs are there that there is a similar urgency to have a winning basketball team? What actions is the school taking to ensure equal success on that front? After the past few years of futility, is anything at all changing, or just more "hope for the best?" I think a new coach is what is going to be needed before we see consistent success, but it's not like that's the only thing that could be done. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice.
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03-21-2023, 01:33 PM
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Urgency is overrated. I have urgency in a lot of things and I still suck at them. I don't lack urgency, I lack competence.
Those in charge of scheduling buses to shuttle First Four teams to the Arena and hanging signage do not also coach rebounding drills and zone defense. Segregation of duties.
I'm not going to diminish UDs success in running tournaments because they once wrote the actual field manual for how to do it. It's a lot of work and skill. But....they have been doing it for so long its to the point where it's hard to screw up unless there's sabotage or an act of God. It's like Steph Curry at the foul line.
Additionally, UD folks running the First Four don't lose half their staff to the portal and graduation every year. Continuity of moving parts and also promotion from within (apprenticeship).
I just don't see much relationship between the two. Certainly no performance degradation before and after hosting. In fact, probably a slight improvement. Wasn't much UD hoops success from 1985 to the advent of the NCAA Play In Game.
__________________
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Make everyone else's "one day" your "day one".
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03-21-2023, 03:41 PM
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So if they didn't make an announcement today, does that mean they won't make one at all? I am confused. did I miss something?
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03-21-2023, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by The Gem
So if they didn't make an announcement today, does that mean they won't make one at all? I am confused. did I miss something?
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You know as much as all the rest of us, which is nothing.
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03-21-2023, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris R
Urgency is overrated. I have urgency in a lot of things and I still suck at them. I don't lack urgency, I lack competence.
Those in charge of scheduling buses to shuttle First Four teams to the Arena and hanging signage do not also coach rebounding drills and zone defense. Segregation of duties.
I'm not going to diminish UDs success in running tournaments because they once wrote the actual field manual for how to do it. It's a lot of work and skill. But....they have been doing it for so long its to the point where it's hard to screw up unless there's sabotage or an act of God. It's like Steph Curry at the foul line.
Additionally, UD folks running the First Four don't lose half their staff to the portal and graduation every year. Continuity of moving parts and also promotion from within (apprenticeship).
I just don't see much relationship between the two. Certainly no performance degradation before and after hosting. In fact, probably a slight improvement. Wasn't much UD hoops success from 1985 to the advent of the NCAA Play In Game.
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Do I recall correctly that we get a new court every year out of the deal? That is a bigger deal than it sounds like from what I recall a new floor costs.
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03-21-2023, 03:53 PM
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Considering all that Grant and the team went through, they actually exceeded my expectations. I know, I know, he should have found a 1st string point guard, thrown a bag over his head and brought him back to UD to be 3rd string.
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03-21-2023, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86
I don't think anybody would argue the level of effort the administration (and others around the city) make to ensure UD continues to host the First Four and that the games go off without a hitch.
But what signs are there that there is a similar urgency to have a winning basketball team? What actions is the school taking to ensure equal success on that front? After the past few years of futility, is anything at all changing, or just more "hope for the best?" I think a new coach is what is going to be needed before we see consistent success, but it's not like that's the only thing that could be done. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice.
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To be honest, I'm not sure about the effort to host NCAA games is what it should be. It's like the NCAA threw us a bone to host the first four every season at the expense of hosting the rounds of 64 and 32. If I still lived in Dayton I would much prefer the round of 64 and 32 games (which adds up to 6 games) every few years rather than the play-in games ever year.
I attended the NCAA games at the Arena in 1985(granted that was extra special because the Flyers and Miami were playing there) and another season after that and it was a blast. You would get one game of 1-16 or 2-15 and then the others were more interesting matchups. And you'd get 6 games total. Now you mostly get double-digit seeds in 4 games.
I'm sure the money's better to host the play-in games every year, but man, having the "REAL" tournament in our backyard ever few years was much more fun.
I hope when the tournament expands and Dayton no longer get the sole title of hosting the first four, they go back to bidding for the real tournament to come back.
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03-21-2023, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
To be honest, I'm not sure about the effort to host NCAA games is what it should be. It's like the NCAA threw us a bone to host the first four every season at the expense of hosting the rounds of 64 and 32. If I still lived in Dayton I would much prefer the round of 64 and 32 games (which adds up to 6 games) every few years rather than the play-in games ever year.
I attended the NCAA games at the Arena in 1985(granted that was extra special because the Flyers and Miami were playing there) and another season after that and it was a blast. You would get one game of 1-16 or 2-15 and then the others were more interesting matchups. And you'd get 6 games total. Now you mostly get double-digit seeds in 4 games.
I'm sure the money's better to host the play-in games every year, but man, having the "REAL" tournament in our backyard ever few years was much more fun.
I hope when the tournament expands and Dayton no longer get the sole title of hosting the first four, they go back to bidding for the real tournament to come back.
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I was told slim if any chance we ever get anything more than the first 4 as the arena is too small to host games. Nationwide had 19,500+ for each of the three sessions. UD Arena only holds like 12,500 or so with the set up they use for tourneys.
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03-21-2023, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
I was told slim if any chance we ever get anything more than the first 4 as the arena is too small to host games. Nationwide had 19,500+ for each of the three sessions. UD Arena only holds like 12,500 or so with the set up they use for tourneys.
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Over the 6 games held at Nationwide this past weekend, they drew a total attendance of 58,000, which is something like 9700 per game. I'm pretty sure that UD Arena can attract more than that based on the love for basketball around the city that will fill in what the participating fans won't.
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03-21-2023, 04:30 PM
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There is a minimum seat requirement to host first and second round games. 15,000 or 17,000 or something. I remember there was talk of building a new UD Arena at the Fairgrounds that would be big enough, but obviously that isn't happening.
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03-21-2023, 04:30 PM
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General of the Air Force
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
Over the 6 games held at Nationwide this past weekend, they drew a total attendance of 58,000, which is something like 9700 per game. I'm pretty sure that UD Arena can attract more than that based on the love for basketball around the city that will fill in what the participating fans won't.
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Games are always divided into 3 sessions for any opening round NCAA basketball I have been too, so one ticket gets you into two games.
The best UD could do is 12,500 +/- times 3 = 37,500. 20,000 less than Nationwide for the three sessions / 6 games.
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03-21-2023, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
Games are always divided into 3 sessions for any opening round NCAA basketball I have been too, so one ticket gets you into two games.
The best UD could do is 12,500 +/- times 3 = 37,500. 20,000 less than Nationwide for the three sessions / 6 games.
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Yeah, you're right. Didn't think of that.
So did Dayton losing the better rounds coincide with the pod system of having the 6 games filled in by multiple regions? That obviously was set up to get more fans in the stands.
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03-21-2023, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
Over the 6 games held at Nationwide this past weekend, they drew a total attendance of 58,000, which is something like 9700 per game. I'm pretty sure that UD Arena can attract more than that based on the love for basketball around the city that will fill in what the participating fans won't.
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While I was watching the games this weekend I was surprised and disappointed by how empty the arenas were, particularly on Thurs and Fri. Better on Saturday and Sunday but it seems like my memory is that with the exception of the first game of the day, the arenas were always packed, maybe my memory is failing.
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03-21-2023, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71
Speaking of creating fantasies as facts.
UD did not get a bid (or winning one if I understand your statement) in the greatest season in the last 50 years. Yes there were discussions between talking heads about the possibility of earning a 1 seed .... but alas none of that really happened. There is no NCAA literature that covers all the teams selected for the T that year, no official NCAA bracket as part of the NCAA college basketball history. Again the talking heads and others had there own projected brackets but in the end there was NADA, ZIP, BAM!, to point to.
So UD did not win anything. Fans may carry that hoped for selection in their collective minds from now till eternity but it is maybe a sign of how desperate the base is to be relevant in the discussions amongst peers of being IN the Tournament.
As for almost earning a bid except for 1/2 of a BB game well that doesn't count for any thing either.
As the movie quote says, "SHOW ME THE MONEY!"
This statement reeks of desperation too. Since many claimed we would be in (which was a good thing I agree) we nor anyone else was in the 2020 NCAA T. PERIOD. So counting as "making it" seems a little slanted toward desperation to be included in discussions of OUR team was in the T while we watch those that actually have been in since and currently watching on TV the episode of teams such as FDU, St Peters (last year), Princeton, Zags', etc.
Next time I'm in the arena I'll look for that banner that lists the years we have been in the T and see if it lists the 2020 year or the years we missed by only 1/2 a game. Likely those years will have an * nearby somewhere describing those important details explaining what we did .
Our record, Grants record is what it is. Nothing more can be read into it as the facts are what they are. If he stays he stays, if he goes, he goes, if he decides to step away he steps away.
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So you are saying the #3 team in the country wasn’t going to make the NCAA Tournament? Better check what you are smoking.
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03-21-2023, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
While I was watching the games this weekend I was surprised and disappointed by how empty the arenas were, particularly on Thurs and Fri. Better on Saturday and Sunday but it seems like my memory is that with the exception of the first game of the day, the arenas were always packed, maybe my memory is failing.
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I did not notice this, but it is a sign of the times.
I have met a group of friends at the same bar on the first Friday to watch games every year for the last 30 years or so, place was mostly empty all day despite fact it was St. Patty Day. In the past was full most of the day.
Dragons worried about a sell out streak ending this year
Few joints around town that used to have an hour wait for table at dinner, now no or little wait, even with a section closed off due to staffing issues.
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03-21-2023, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
I did not notice this, but it is a sign of the times.
I have met a group of friends at the same bar on the first Friday to watch games every year for the last 30 years or so, place was mostly empty all day despite fact it was St. Patty Day. In the past was full most of the day.
Dragons worried about a sell out streak ending this year
Few joints around town that used to have an hour wait for table at dinner, now no or little wait, even with a section closed off due to staffing issues.
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Bad weather maybe had something to do with it. Also I can't believe that the Dragons are still pretending that they are selling out.
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03-21-2023, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by UDEE79
Bad weather maybe had something to do with it. Also I can't believe that the Dragons are still pretending that they are selling out.
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Yea, you are 100% correct on the Dragons, I guess that is a bad example. They give away so many "free" tickets last few years just to keep the streak going. I am down to a 16 game package, and think they gave me 6 additional games last year at random for various reasons.
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03-21-2023, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
While I was watching the games this weekend I was surprised and disappointed by how empty the arenas were, particularly on Thurs and Fri. Better on Saturday and Sunday but it seems like my memory is that with the exception of the first game of the day, the arenas were always packed, maybe my memory is failing.
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Your memory is not failing. Iinm, the arenas have not been selling out for the past 10? or so years.
My theory is that the tix have just gotten to be prohibitively expensive. Even diehard fans have trouble wanting to shell out $300+ for one all-session ticket for both the first and second rounds to watch at least some teams that you are not a fan off.
Last edited by ud2; 03-21-2023 at 09:34 PM..
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03-21-2023, 09:41 PM
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I've been to the 1st/2nd rounds twice in Providence and once in Hartford in the last 10 years and all three times the crowds were great (pretty sure all sell outs). I do think in general, the east coast sites do seem to do a little better than the other regions, could be wrong but it seems that way.
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03-21-2023, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by The Gem
There is a minimum seat requirement to host first and second round games. 15,000 or 17,000 or something. I remember there was talk of building a new UD Arena at the Fairgrounds that would be big enough, but obviously that isn't happening.
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Its a dumb requirement, With our 14,500 capacity we will out draw most of the venues.
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03-21-2023, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
While I was watching the games this weekend I was surprised and disappointed by how empty the arenas were, particularly on Thurs and Fri. Better on Saturday and Sunday but it seems like my memory is that with the exception of the first game of the day, the arenas were always packed, maybe my memory is failing.
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This even applies to the sweet 16 and elite 8 rounds and maybe even the final 4. Those rounds are sometimes held in 60,000?-80,000? seat NFL stadiums.
I went to the Sweet 16 in Atlanta at the Georgia Dome. Maybe 25%? of the upper deck was closed off with a huge drapery/shades-type partition thing.
Of the remaining 75% of the upper deck, around 33% of it was empty. I am guessing you could arrive at the stadium 5 minutes before tip-off and be able to buy an upper deck ticket. Of course, the view up there sucks. Trying to watch a basketball game in a NFL stadium is not great.
Last edited by ud2; 03-21-2023 at 10:40 PM..
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03-21-2023, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
Do I recall correctly that we get a new court every year out of the deal? That is a bigger deal than it sounds like from what I recall a new floor costs.
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Not true at all.
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03-22-2023, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by UDEE79
Its a dumb requirement, With our 14,500 capacity we will out draw most of the venues.
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Capacity for our games is only 13,407. I am pretty sure in NCAA setup we are only around 12,500. At least that is around what we have been listing as attendance the last few years for the First Four.
Last edited by m21eagle45; 03-22-2023 at 09:37 AM..
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03-22-2023, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by The Gem
There is a minimum seat requirement to host first and second round games. 15,000 or 17,000 or something. I remember there was talk of building a new UD Arena at the Fairgrounds that would be big enough, but obviously that isn't happening.
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I don't think this is true because The AMP (formerly The Dunk) in Providence will be hosting 1st and 2nd round games in 2025 and it only holds about 12,500 and that is before it is reconfigured for the NCAA games.
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03-22-2023, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
This is such a reach to discredit from a rational and reasonable perspective. It doesn't matter if UD got a 1 or 2 seed, that season was still the best in 50 years and likely ever.
As far as all the other things I said, I wasn't implying in any way that we should count the almosts.
My point is that we are a whole lot closer to meeting even the most spun understanding of Neil's expectations than we are 'declining' or 'on the brink'. So much hyperbole by those extremely vocal and redundant that want AG out - most of whom never wanted him in the first place but that isn't biasing them in the least.
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I'll agree UD has been close (but no cigar) in the couple seasons you mention but at the end of the day close only works in horse shoes and hand grenades. "On the cusp", "close" are all on the plus side of looking at a season or seasons. Now if UD can only get over the hump that would be a greater feat.
I am responding to those who want to count something that did not happen (as in UD was a 1 seed or whatever) as an official result. And AG can not be credited with an invite to the NCAA because no invite for any team occurred in the 2019-20 season. If some what to give him a half point for getting us in that lofty discussion that's fine. But we can not assign that year as part of his record of how many years he has taken UD to the NCAA ...
It is as Adams stated in the pre-revolutionary years, [paraphrasing here] "Facts are an inconvenient truth" .
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03-22-2023, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer
I don't think this is true because The AMP (formerly The Dunk) in Providence will be hosting 1st and 2nd round games in 2025 and it only holds about 12,500 and that is before it is reconfigured for the NCAA games.
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That could be right. I seem to recall that back when UD and MVH bought The Fairgrounds was about when they passed the rule and so having new UD Arena that was big enough was being discussed. I don't have time to dig through DDN archives to double check though.
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03-22-2023, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyer Dave
So you are saying the #3 team in the country wasn’t going to make the NCAA Tournament? Better check what you are smoking.
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Not smoking anything but you need glasses or better comprehension skills.
I never said we wouldn't have been in the Tournament had it been played. But some posters want to count it or at least to make it sound like we were a 1 seed. We were not. Since the A10 and NCAA were both canceled no one was mentioned on Selection Sunday, no games were recorded on the A10 T or First Four or Final Four. Nothing official happened. Hence although the prognosticators and talking heads said we most likely a 1 Seed it was only discussion and nothing came out of those discussions.
AG and the Team can't be credited with going to the NCAA that year since there wasn't any NCAA.
It is the way some posters write how they want that post-season to be claimed as if it was real. All I'm saying is that yes UD was extremely good that year but no #1 SEED happened, no invite came, no chance for a Final Four took place. And only on Selection Sunday based on the committee's output can a #1 Seed be awarded and counted. Otherwise it is all in your (collective) head.
At least the season can be recorded in the history books but alas nothing more than that.
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03-22-2023, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by The Gem
That could be right. I seem to recall that back when UD and MVH bought The Fairgrounds was about when they passed the rule and so having new UD Arena that was big enough was being discussed. I don't have time to dig through DDN archives to double check though.
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Just found the requirements online for bids for the 2023-2026 tournaments and it says the following about capacity:
"In the configuration required for this Championship, the competition venue must have a saleable seating capacity of at least 10,000, though preference may be given to sites with a larger capacity."
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03-22-2023, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CT Flyer
Just found the requirements online for bids for the 2023-2026 tournaments and it says the following about capacity:
"In the configuration required for this Championship, the competition venue must have a saleable seating capacity of at least 10,000, though preference may be given to sites with a larger capacity."
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Taco Bell Arena, now called ExtraMile Arena, on the campus of Boise State in Idaho, only has a listed capacity of 12,644 for basketball. They hosted the 1st and 2nd rounds of the ncaat in 2018 and were supposed to host in 2021, but the whole ncaat got moved to Indiana in 2021.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extr...ll_tournaments
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03-22-2023, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71
I'll agree UD has been close (but no cigar) in the couple seasons you mention but at the end of the day close only works in horse shoes and hand grenades. "On the cusp", "close" are all on the plus side of looking at a season or seasons. Now if UD can only get over the hump that would be a greater feat.
I am responding to those who want to count something that did not happen (as in UD was a 1 seed or whatever) as an official result. And AG can not be credited with an invite to the NCAA because no invite for any team occurred in the 2019-20 season. If some what to give him a half point for getting us in that lofty discussion that's fine. But we can not assign that year as part of his record of how many years he has taken UD to the NCAA ...
It is as Adams stated in the pre-revolutionary years, [paraphrasing here] "Facts are an inconvenient truth" .
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Saying you can’t count it when examining his record is disingenuous at best but I’ll concede that point as it isn’t important.
My point continues to be that the last 4 years with what would have been a 2 at worst and 2 ‘on the cusp’ or ‘horseshoes and hand grenades’ seasons are light years closer to meeting posters most extreme interpretation of Neil’s comments than these same poster’s comments on the state of the program i.e. on the brink or train wreck etc.
The arm chairs especially are way way too linear in their thinking when they want to be against AG but not so much at all with AM.
Point of fact: They claim AG is 1/6 or worse 0/6 and don’t allow any context to this year’s injuries or last year’s youth or the cancelled year etc. Then when refuting my perspective of AM’s last 2 1 and done season results as very disappointing their 1st comment is - Both opponents were under seeded.
Either the results are the results and you measure only on that or you allow for context like injuries or under seeding in your evaluation for both. You can’t have it both ways in a logical discussion which is what most of the discussions should seek to be centered around. To me that is textbook hypocrisy.
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03-22-2023, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Not true at all.
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Right you are, they store and reuse. The NCAA champion has the option to buy the Final Four floor.
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03-22-2023, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71
Not smoking anything but you need glasses or better comprehension skills.
I never said we wouldn't have been in the Tournament had it been played. But some posters want to count it or at least to make it sound like we were a 1 seed. We were not. Since the A10 and NCAA were both canceled no one was mentioned on Selection Sunday, no games were recorded on the A10 T or First Four or Final Four. Nothing official happened. Hence although the prognosticators and talking heads said we most likely a 1 Seed it was only discussion and nothing came out of those discussions.
AG and the Team can't be credited with going to the NCAA that year since there wasn't any NCAA.
It is the way some posters write how they want that post-season to be claimed as if it was real. All I'm saying is that yes UD was extremely good that year but no #1 SEED happened, no invite came, no chance for a Final Four took place. And only on Selection Sunday based on the committee's output can a #1 Seed be awarded and counted. Otherwise it is all in your (collective) head.
At least the season can be recorded in the history books but alas nothing more than that.
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I have to agree with everyone else that you’re wrong on this one. The people saying we would have been in the final four or national champs are also wrong. We can credit it as a ncaa tournament appearance but nothing more. We already know that a 16 can beat a 1 seed
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03-22-2023, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer
I have to agree with everyone else that you’re wrong on this one. The people saying we would have been in the final four or national champs are also wrong. We can credit it as a ncaa tournament appearance but nothing more. We already know that a 16 can beat a 1 seed
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I'd be willing to bet that 50% or higher of 1 seeds have made the sweet 16 historically. I don't have time to research this; Figgie?
This link shows a very high percentage of #1's making it to the Final 8:
https://bracketodds.cs.illinois.edu/seedadv.html
Seed R32 Sweet16 Final 8 Final 4 Final 2 National Champion
1 99.3% 85.1% 68.2% 40.5% 50.0% 64.9%
Last edited by longtimefan67; 03-22-2023 at 01:29 PM..
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03-22-2023, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
I'd be willing to bet that 50% or higher of 1 seeds have made the sweet 16 historically. I don't have time to research this; Figgie?
This link shows a very high percentage of #1's making it to the Final 8:
https://bracketodds.cs.illinois.edu/seedadv.html
Seed R32 Sweet16 Final 8 Final 4 Final 2 National Champion
1 99.3% 85.1% 68.2% 40.5% 50.0% 64.9%
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I’m not saying it wasn’t probable. The only fact we can agree on is Dayton would have been in the tournament as a Conference Champ or at large.
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03-23-2023, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by m21eagle45
Capacity for our games is only 13,407. I am pretty sure in NCAA setup we are only around 12,500. At least that is around what we have been listing as attendance the last few years for the First Four.
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You are right I gave us an extra thousand and forgot about the huge press area
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03-23-2023, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2
IMO, there is all the difference in the world between when Archie left vs. now.
Had we hired one of Archie's assistants, we would be looking to continue what Archie started. Archie was 4/6, the program was in excellent shape, everybody was happy, the fans were fat and happy.
With Grant, 58% of the fans want him fired after next year, the program is definitely on the rocks right now, many are unhappy. Why would we want more of what Grant brought?
See the difference?
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Exactly which of Archie’s assistants would have been 4/6 especially if we can’t count 2020? And what evidence do you have for this from their current school? I can’t count 2020 but this is etched in stone? Senfield’s Bazzaro world is alive and well on UDPride.
Archie hasn’t won a game in the tourney in 6 years or even made the tourney. This despite going to a better conference with better recruiting and more money where it’s literally guaranteed by a few here to punch your ticket annually.
58% is laughable. 100% of people who hold my opinion want AG back so i guess that proves this was the right decision. The arena is packed, students have bought in, the money is flowing. If that’s on the rocks, sign me up.
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03-23-2023, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by TX Flyer
I have to agree with everyone else that you’re wrong on this one. The people saying we would have been in the final four or national champs are also wrong. We can credit it as a ncaa tournament appearance but nothing more. We already know that a 16 can beat a 1 seed
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So we are giving credit for something that didn't really happen? Could have should have, but alas IT. DID. NOT.
If one aspires to be an actor and goes to an empty theater, stands on the stage and than goes around proclaiming to be an actor he must be one. Correct?
So when you talk to your buds about 2019-20 and UD's T appearance I hope they don't look at you with a jaundice eye. You know because they're your buds.
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03-23-2023, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer
Point of fact: They claim AG is 1/6 or worse 0/6 and don’t allow any context to this year’s injuries or last year’s youth or the cancelled year etc. Then when refuting my perspective of AM’s last 2 1 and done season results as very disappointing their 1st comment is - Both opponents were under seeded.
Either the results are the results and you measure only on that or you allow for context like injuries or under seeding in your evaluation for both. You can’t have it both ways in a logical discussion which is what most of the discussions should seek to be centered around. To me that is textbook hypocrisy.
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I think it's a little ridiculous to try to defend a guy who has made 1 NCAA in 6 years (and never had the opportunity to get upset early in the tournament in that 1 appearance) by trashing a guy for losing NCAA games, but knock yourself out.
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03-23-2023, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71
So we are giving credit for something that didn't really happen? Could have should have, but alas IT. DID. NOT.
If one aspires to be an actor and goes to an empty theater, stands on the stage and than goes around proclaiming to be an actor he must be one. Correct?
So when you talk to your buds about 2019-20 and UD's T appearance I hope they don't look at you with a jaundice eye. You know because they're your buds.
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This is such a dumb semantic argument. No, we didn't technically receive a bid. Yes, we would have if not for a global pandemic, which has no bearing at all on our discussion of the coaching staff or their efficacy.
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03-23-2023, 08:53 AM
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This goes to prove the old adage, Twitter is not the real world.
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03-23-2023, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71
So we are giving credit for something that didn't really happen? Could have should have, but alas IT. DID. NOT.
If one aspires to be an actor and goes to an empty theater, stands on the stage and than goes around proclaiming to be an actor he must be one. Correct?
So when you talk to your buds about 2019-20 and UD's T appearance I hope they don't look at you with a jaundice eye. You know because they're your buds.
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We finished the season ranked #3 in the country. I'll just give credit for that. To me, that's as good or better than 3 NCAA appearances with one of them being a Sweet 16. It was a special season. I'm sorry you (apparently) missed it.
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03-23-2023, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow
We finished the season ranked #3 in the country. I'll just give credit for that. To me, that's as good or better than 3 NCAA appearances with one of them being a Sweet 16. It was a special season. I'm sorry you (apparently) missed it.
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That's not how it works.
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03-23-2023, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyingArrow
We finished the season ranked #3 in the country. I'll just give credit for that. To me, that's as good or better than 3 NCAA appearances with one of them being a Sweet 16. It was a special season. I'm sorry you (apparently) missed it.
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San Diego State was also competing for a 1 seed that year and they have actually been to 3 straight NCAA's since including the Sweet 16 this year. Apparently, the achievements didn't have to be hypothetical.
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03-23-2023, 10:14 AM
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I guess the Smoke on Twitter was all just smoke huh?
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03-23-2023, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
I guess the Smoke on Twitter was all just smoke huh?
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So much so that Jeff Goodman felt compelled to tweet that Grant was returning? If there was never a question, that tweet never would have been sent.
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03-23-2023, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan
That's not how it works.
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Agree, I am having trouble coming up with even one example where a coach had one great year along with five non-ncaat years, and the coach ended up not getting fired. This situation with Grant points much more to being an outlier than something that normally happens.
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03-23-2023, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan
So much so that Jeff Goodman felt compelled to tweet that Grant was returning? If there was never a question, that tweet never would have been sent.
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Unreal that there are still people making this argument. If I go on Twitter and tweet out that I have it from a good source that you are a Russian spy, and then someone asks you if you are a Russian spy, does that validate the original tweet? Of course it doesn't, STOP THIS!!!
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03-23-2023, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ud2
Agree, I am having trouble coming up with even one example where a coach had one great year along with five non-ncaat years, and the coach ended up not getting fired. This situation with Grant points much more to being an outlier than something that normally happens.
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Read your bottom post for the answer to your above post...which were made 23 minutes apart...
Originally Posted by ud2
Having read most of the posts recently, I definitely get the feeling that even if we miss the ncaat next year, a sizeable chunk of the fan base will want to retain Coach Grant for an 8th year.
We will have to see what happens in 23-24. We may end up retaining Grant for at least 8 years like SLU is apparently doing with Ford.
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Then look at Brad Brownell (Clemson's first 8 years) and Scott Nagy at Wright State for a couple others...of which there are plenty.
Plenty, but not many because typically after a 'great' year the coach is grabbed by a larger school and isn't around for another 5 or 6. A better question is to look at coaches who had 1 great year, moved up and failed miserably.
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I shaved my balls for this?
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03-23-2023, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
I guess the Smoke on Twitter was all just smoke huh?
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Ever heard of spontaneous combustion? Can smolder and put off a bit of smoke for weeks, before the fire erupts.
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03-23-2023, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67
I guess the Smoke on Twitter was all just smoke huh?
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more like a mist coming off the foreheads of some of the Anti- AG crowd.
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03-23-2023, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
Unreal that there are still people making this argument. If I go on Twitter and tweet out that I have it from a good source that you are a Russian spy, and then someone asks you if you are a Russian spy, does that validate the original tweet? Of course it doesn't, STOP THIS!!!
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Jeff Goodman is a reputable source. I also believe he's somewhat close to Grant, so it's highly unlikely this was a response to some rando on Twitter.
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03-23-2023, 11:58 AM
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How many of you took up Charles James (aka Coffe Can) on his bet?
The original tweet:
"Anthony Grant will take a promotion in the athletic department and retire from coaching. I will take all of your bets."
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03-23-2023, 12:10 PM
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AG is going to be coaching the team next year. It is what it is, like it or not. Arguing some alternate reality where he's gone seems senseless at this point.
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03-23-2023, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan
Ever heard of spontaneous combustion? Can smolder and put off a bit of smoke for weeks, before the fire erupts.
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Smoldering for weeks seems like the opposite of spontaneous to me.
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03-23-2023, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan
Jeff Goodman is a reputable source. I also believe he's somewhat close to Grant, so it's highly unlikely this was a response to some rando on Twitter.
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It wasn't a rando response per my sources.
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03-23-2023, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan
Jeff Goodman is a reputable source. I also believe he's somewhat close to Grant, so it's highly unlikely this was a response to some rando on Twitter.
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Nice try. Goodman was not the source of the original tweet. There was no source. Goodman asked him if he was stepping down. Why on earth would Goodman, who never indicated he had heard from any of his sources that he was stepping down, ask him that question? Because a bunch of people on Twitter and this board started and promoted a false rumor. Please be careful not to hurt yourself trying to torture your own argument.
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03-23-2023, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
It wasn't a rando response per my sources.
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I hope that was sarcasm and I am assuming it was. In case it wasn't, are you really validating an anonymous source with another anonymous source? If so there is a company named Fusion GPS hiring.
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03-23-2023, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Read your bottom post for the answer to your above post...which were made 23 minutes apart...
Then look at Brad Brownell (Clemson's first 8 years) and Scott Nagy at Wright State for a couple others...of which there are plenty.
Plenty, but not many because typically after a 'great' year the coach is grabbed by a larger school and isn't around for another 5 or 6. A better question is to look at coaches who had 1 great year, moved up and failed miserably.
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Ford didn't have a great year like AG did in his third year here. He had to win the A10T to get his only ncaat appearance at SLU. I am very surprised that SLU didn't fire him this month.
Brownell is on thin ice, he was lucky that he wasn't fired several years ago, he saved himself it seems with a Sweet 16 year, he is barely hanging on IMO. I think Brownell is an outlier.
Nagy is arguably the best coach Wright State has ever had, he will be there for as long as he wants IMO.
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03-23-2023, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Read your bottom post for the answer to your above post...which were made 23 minutes apart...
Then look at Brad Brownell (Clemson's first 8 years) and Scott Nagy at Wright State for a couple others...of which there are plenty.
Plenty, but not many because typically after a 'great' year the coach is grabbed by a larger school and isn't around for another 5 or 6. A better question is to look at coaches who had 1 great year, moved up and failed miserably.
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I will give you Ford and Brownell. Ford is an outlier IMO. Both of those guys didn't get a 1 or 2 seed though. Ford has a 13 seed at SLU, that's it. Brownell has two round of 64's and a Sweet 16.
Do you have any other examples?
Brownell is 3/13 at Clemson, like I said, he is an outlier at a school like Clemson in the ACC, he was lucky he wasn't fired.
Nagy is doing great at Wright State relative to their history. He is the only coach in WSU history to have multiple NIT or NCAAT appearances. He has 2 nit's and 2 ncaat's.
Last edited by ud2; 03-23-2023 at 01:06 PM..
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03-23-2023, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by podcast411
Because it just goes to show the rumors were nothing more than rumors. Spread by those with a hard on to get AG out. (also known as idiots). Just nice to see their Bubble pop.
Now lets get on to looking at the recruiting trail and watching the Transfer portal. And we can start to speculate on who might be leaving this year.
Holmes, Camara, Amzil - likely all to turn pro. But it would be nice to see all 3 come back.
There are others likely to transfer that are getting no playing time when the bench was paper thin. And in those cases - they will open up a spot for potentially getting that end of game player that demands the ball be in his hands so he can win the game or keep from losing it. Which this season we sorely needed said player.
But overall - we finished 2nd in the A-10 - made it to the finals of the A-10 and all this with a roster that had more injuries than any team I can remember from the past 40+ years.
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I meant why are you glad that he's back?
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03-23-2023, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Read your bottom post for the answer to your above post...which were made 23 minutes apart...
Then look at Brad Brownell (Clemson's first 8 years) and Scott Nagy at Wright State for a couple others...of which there are plenty.
Plenty, but not many because typically after a 'great' year the coach is grabbed by a larger school and isn't around for another 5 or 6. A better question is to look at coaches who had 1 great year, moved up and failed miserably.
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So essentially your argument is that a coach only has to have one good year, and he gets at least 7 years at a school.
I will give you Ford and Brownell, but I think those are outliers.
Nagy is not relevant, he is doing great.
Brownell has ncaat appearances in years 1, 8, and 10. He is 3/13, year 1 round of 64, year 8 sweet 16, and year 10 round of 64
Do you have any other examples of a coach getting at least 7 years after a 1/6 start?
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03-23-2023, 01:18 PM
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General
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo
I meant why are you glad that he's back?
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May I answer that for him.
He's glad he's back just to spite all the posters that were right about how poorly the results would be under Grant. It has nothing to do with the results or direction of the program but because he was wrong and we were right, he wants us punished.
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03-23-2023, 01:26 PM
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Brigadier General
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Originally Posted by Smitty10
May I answer that for him.
He's glad he's back just to spite all the posters that were right about how poorly the results would be under Grant. It has nothing to do with the results or direction of the program but because he was wrong and we were right, he wants us punished.
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You're right. He actually says that in his post. Along with calling us idiots.
I was just hoping that somebody, anybody, could explain from a basketball perspective why they want AG back. I've asked multiple people in multiple threads.
To his credit he's the only one to attempt a reply. Unfortunately it was nothing but ad hominem.
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03-23-2023, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
Nice try. Goodman was not the source of the original tweet. There was no source. Goodman asked him if he was stepping down. Why on earth would Goodman, who never indicated he had heard from any of his sources that he was stepping down, ask him that question? Because a bunch of people on Twitter and this board started and promoted a false rumor. Please be careful not to hurt yourself trying to torture your own argument.
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I never said he was the original source. And if you believe Goodman would tweet that out in response to what anyone on this board or randos on Twitter said, you are highly mistaken.
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03-23-2023, 02:08 PM
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Colonel
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I believe he asked based on Twitter and this Board, what other reason would there be? Unless you believe that Goodman, who you correctly point out is close to UD, didn't have at least as good of information that these folks on Twitter and this Board had, in which case why would have said nothing for two weeks? These guys make their money and their reputation being the first to report stuff. The rumors were at best wrong, and at worst outright lies. How can there be any argument about that?
Why include "Jeff Goodman is a reliable source" if you weren't insinuating that he had something to do with the original rumor. Otherwise the only thing his reliability is relevant to is that that AG is in fact coming back which was never the point of anything you posted.
Last edited by Flyers98; 03-23-2023 at 02:37 PM..
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03-23-2023, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86
I think it's a little ridiculous to try to defend a guy who has made 1 NCAA in 6 years (and never had the opportunity to get upset early in the tournament in that 1 appearance) by trashing a guy for losing NCAA games, but knock yourself out.
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I'm in no way defending AG using AM's failures in last 7 years. Just showing all the data for AM so he can be judged according to his entire record and then relate that to coaching in general.
Context is everything. When you leave it out to make your points, you are either ignorant or intentional. I'll let you decide which.
If it makes you all giddy inside like a school girl to count a blow out loss as a favorite and another 1 and done the next year with Srs. then maybe you should cheer for VCU as they haven't advanced to the second round in 10 years.
Funny thing is the same way way too vocal minority on VCU's board are not happy at all with the current status of VCU and especially not all excited about it like the armchairs here are. You say you just want bids but you'll be *****ing just as loud if AG or the next coach turns the program into the last 10 years of the arrived VCU.
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03-23-2023, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71
So we are giving credit for something that didn't really happen? Could have should have, but alas IT. DID. NOT.
If one aspires to be an actor and goes to an empty theater, stands on the stage and than goes around proclaiming to be an actor he must be one. Correct?
So when you talk to your buds about 2019-20 and UD's T appearance I hope they don't look at you with a jaundice eye. You know because they're your buds.
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Might want to call all the sports networks and tell them to educate their broadcast crews because all of them I heard do games the past several years reference UD as assuredly being a 1 or 2 seed.
It's sad that hatred of AG makes supposed fans less willing to accept this fact than random announcers. The hatred and bias is glaring.
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03-23-2023, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98
I believe he asked based on Twitter and this Board, what other reason would there be? Unless you believe that Goodman, who you correctly point out is close to UD, didn't have at least as good as information that these folks on Twitter and this Board had, in which case why would have said nothing for two weeks? These guys make their money and their reputation being the first to report stuff. The rumors were at best wrong, and at worst outright lies. How can there be any argument about that?
Why include "Jeff Goodman is a reliable source" if you weren't insinuating that he had something to do with the original rumor. Otherwise the only thing his reliability is relevant to is that that AG is in fact coming back which was never the point of anything you posted.
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I included it because of people saying that the rumor had no substance. A rumor that has no substance isn't going to get a reply by Jeff Goodman. This isn't really complicated, no matter how hard you try to make it. You're free to believe the whole thing was made up if that makes you feel better.
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