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07-06-2013, 06:33 PM
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I hope and expect Butler to improve...they have a strong foundation and tradition...they'll have growing pains as they adjust to the Big East but far less than what UD would have if moving..
And we should want them to do well as the midwest needs to be seen as a basketball hotbed in America and a place where recruits want to play. If Xavier, Butler and UD all fall apart, we - being the lowest on the totem pole - will have a tough time catching up simply because of Conference affiliation.
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07-06-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
I hope and expect Butler to improve...they have a strong foundation and tradition...they'll have growing pains as they adjust to the Big East but far less than what UD would have if moving..
And we should want them to do well as the midwest needs to be seen as a basketball hotbed in America and a place where recruits want to play. If Xavier, Butler and UD all fall apart, we - being the lowest on the totem pole - will have a tough time catching up simply because of Conference affiliation.
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I don't buy this logic at all. I don't believe that we benefit from having schools with which we compete for recruits (in theory) being successful. If we and Butler are finalists for the next three or four star recruit coming out of the Miami Valley, whose chances do you like better if both schools have had roughly the same amount of success? Of course we all want UD to get better, however I have no problem fervently rooting against schools like Butler and Xavier for various reasons (some having to do with bitterness), but most of all because we need to have something to hang our hats on when recruiting.
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07-06-2013, 09:02 PM
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Here's my reasoning and I completely understand yours...
Rollo's rules of competition state that you're only as good as your competition. So as long as the teams in your area (BigEast) are recruiting the same players you are, in order to land them you must work harder. There's no room to be lazy or take anything for granted when you're in 3rd of 3.
Hard work pays off....eventually...I hope.
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07-06-2013, 10:15 PM
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I think this is a good move for Stevens at this point in his career.
Look..he has had success...but Butler isn't a destination program for a young and very successful coach. This is the perfect time for him to hit the NBA and if he fails...he can easily go back to a successful and well paying NCAA job with a shirt that says he took a chance and it wasn't for him. That is if he isn't successful in the league.
He is a great coach. His X's and O's are crazy good compared to many other teams that UD faced last season. The NBA is a totally different animal, as you buy your talent and the rest is managing ego's and social circles...then the X's and O's.
If there was a ceiling at Butler, BS hit it. What else can he do? He will never replicate the success he has had...no way...no how...and if he did, there would be more stars aligned than many other programs have ever seen. It is Butler, not UNC, Duke, MSU, etc...
Good move for the guy. If he doesn't make it in the NBA, the NCAA will welcome him back with open arms...good representative of a program, good coach, and isn't going to get them sued or investigated.
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07-07-2013, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by vclark34
Butler should be ok in the long run. Any good AD in Butlers situation would have plans in place for a coaching departure. I also believe that there is a lot of good young talent out there to fill a coaching vacancy.
I would actually like to focus on how good of a hire this is for the Boston celtics. There has been an interesting change in scouting methods used in the NBA over the last 5 years. Now certain front offices, Celtics included, have put a heavy emphisis on the use of advanced statistics such as PER (player efficiency rating) and WARP (wins above replacement). Brad Stevens has always put a very high value on these metrics and was the first D1 coach to higher a statistics expert as an assistant. What we will find out as Brad Stevens career with Boston unfolds is if baseing a franchise off of analytics can be a success. Sort of the basketball equivalent of Money Ball.
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You hit the nail on the head with this post.
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07-07-2013, 02:55 AM
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07-07-2013, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
I think this is a good move for Stevens at this point in his career.
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Taking a position where failure would be seen as success seems like a pretty safe move. No matter how badly he tanks (not that I expect him to), he just signed for close to a decade of top dollar coaching. Even if he takes about 5 years to fail in the NBA, he'd get another 5 years to fail at the college level (again, assuming the worst - which I don't expect). At a couple million+ per year. He'll be in great shape moving forward, no matter what happens.
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07-07-2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bobber
Seems Butler has a new coach.
Wonder if they'd have let Mr. Smart fly the coop?]
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In those specific circumstances, probably yes. I get the point that Butler looks within and not external. But when UD was hiring a head coach Smart was the director of basketball operations and had never had any bench experience. They aren't hiring DOBs as their head coach.
If Matt Graves turns out to be the second cmng of Brad Stevens or Shaka Smart, will you then ask why Butler let him go?
UD has made a lot of mistakes with the basketball program. Not hiring Shaka Smart to replace OP wasn't one of them.
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07-07-2013, 05:17 PM
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If UD would have hired Shaka Smart would things have been different? Perhaps. But at the time no one knew what Smart was capable of. Think of it this way, how many people thought that Tom Brady would have the stats he has. How many teams ended up passing on him? Or how about not getting drafted as in the case of Tony Romo(not a great example considering post season success, but still a good QB). Or how about how many people thought that Apple would turn into the company that it is today years ago before the iPod. If you think about it, there was a high school teacher who went on to be a MLB relief pitcher. Yet, it has happened twice in the past 15 years(Jim Morris and Steve Delabar). There are plenty of times that people overlook things, but history tells a different story. I just think sometimes we forget about these stories and realize that we have missed a golden opportunity, even though we made the right decision.
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07-07-2013, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fan4allUDSports
If UD would have hired Shaka Smart would things have been different? Perhaps. But at the time no one knew what Smart was capable of.
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Who knows...
But when the likes of X and Butler keep the coaching carousel in full swing...I have a hard time believing it was a crap shoot and much more to do with the ability of a program to hire and retain those with the ability to get the job done. If X had just won under one coach, I would buy that X fell into a good random coaching hire. If Butler hadn't had a trend upward prior to Stevens, I would have said that Stevens was a good random coaching hire.
Other programs are capable of finding coaches that are capable. Is AM that guy? I don't know. I can tell that no one since JOB has proved otherwise. Until UD is able to do that, we are in for another decade of mediocrity. Let us hope that AM is able to get it done and we can quit speculating.
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07-07-2013, 06:59 PM
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I imagine that Butler did contact Graves, but he said publicly that he wasn't leaving South Alabama. Most coaches don't want to be assistants for their entire career, I doubt there was much Butler could have done to keep Graves. Graves said he was shocked that Stevens left, so Graves had no idea that Stevens was about to leave.
And not to take anything away from Smart, but VCU's program was rolling along fairly well before Smart took over, 3 NCAA tournament appearances in 6 years with Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant before Smart took over. Smart has advanced the program though.
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07-07-2013, 07:27 PM
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Smart left when OP left. If we had hired a Director of Basketball Operations as our head coach people would have gone crazy. Some people have gone crazy that we hired an assistant coach as opposed to a head coach. Smart wasn't even an assistant. He was then an assistant for 5 or 6 years before he got the VCU job.
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07-07-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ud2
I imagine that Butler did contact Graves, but he said publicly that he wasn't leaving South Alabama. Most coaches don't want to be assistants for their entire career, I doubt there was much Butler could have done to keep Graves. Graves said he was shocked that Stevens left, so Graves had no idea that Stevens was about to leave.
And not to take anything away from Smart, but VCU's program was rolling along fairly well before Smart took over, 3 NCAA tournament appearances in 6 years with Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant before Smart took over. Smart has advanced the program though.
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and smart wanted to move up the assistant ranks, not be a DBO. Which is why he left UD. No different than Graves leaving Butler for USA. Graves almost certainly would have gotte. The job any time Stevens left, and if he were still there, he would have had the job now, but Butler "let him go". That's about the same as saying UD should have seen what Shaka Smart would do and done everything to keep him on staff until he was ready to be a head coa h in 6 or 7 years.
UD has handled coaching changes terrible, unlike Butler and Xavier. But the both have let guys who would have been future head coaches at their schools go because the timing wasn't right and the then assistant needed to love up. That is not UDs issue. Having ready candidates and planning for internal transition is an issue. But the biggest issue is they have never had the success and staff required to make the internal hire. Purnell to Jirsa would have been a disaster, and you couldn't continue Gregory to Schmidt.
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07-08-2013, 12:04 AM
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It is interesting that Butler seems to have no qualms about going to its second internal choice, right away yet, with no hesitation. They must have quite a backlog of talent in their organization. How do they get and keep so many good people. How is it we clean house with every coaching change?
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07-08-2013, 10:39 AM
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corporations tend to operate the same way
We had two coaches, OP and BG, who had marginal success as compared to the AD's goals, the fans goals, and probably their own also. When they moved on to greener pastures and more money, the AD looked at the whole body of work and determined that a change in program direction was needed. A fresh approach if you will. To do that, it wouldn't make sense to go the next staffer in line. Major corporations operate the same way in most cases where a business President has move on. If he was successful, the corporation looks to his subordinates to continue the roll. If he was marginally successful, outside candidates are sought out. One can second guess that process, but in fact that's the norm.
Butler and Xavier haven't had the problem of "marginal results". If Matta had not been successful, Miller wouldn't have gotten a sniff for the job. If Miller had not been successful, Mack wouldn't have gotten a sniff.
Kissell and Wabler both did what organizations usually do when replacing an executive who has had marginal success, they went outside. Their success or failure wasn't, and won't, be determined by that path. The ultimate judgement will be on whether they picked the CORRECT outside guy to get the result they wanted.
If Archie becomes wildly successful and moves on, I look for Kevin K to be the successor unless he has burned some bridges internally.
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07-08-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bobber
It is interesting that Butler seems to have no qualms about going to its second internal choice, right away yet, with no hesitation. They must have quite a backlog of talent in their organization. How do they get and keep so many good people. How is it we clean house with every coaching change?
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UD has done a poor job with managing coaching transitions, having an internal succession plan, and choosing the right guy to move the program forward.
One of UD's issues is they don't pay assistant coaches well.
But as SDF said much more elegantly, you aren't going to promote from within if the current regime is failing at your goals. Cleaning how is usually what happens when you don't hire from within, and if you are failing you don't typically hire from within. If Gregory had made 4 consecutive NCAA appearances and advanced, Schmidt would likely have been the head coach.
This is the first time Butler has gone more than one step down the ladder IIRC, and even with that they did first reach out to Graves from all reports.
None of that means anyone would go 5 spots down the ladder and hire a DBO with no bench experience as head coach.
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07-08-2013, 10:49 AM
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Captain's log: I agree with UDDoug, Bobber and SDF 100% and am starting to wonder if the AD's office has been taken over by Romulans...that would explain the cover-ups, poor decision making and inconsistent behavior better than any other theory I've read here or in the DDN...which I know was overtaken by Romulans back in the late 70's...peacefully and willingly I might add!
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07-08-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
Look..he has had success...but Butler isn't a destination program for a young and very successful coach.
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Neither is the talent-less Celtics. Great venues, great fan bases, great markets, and great history doesn't make a great coaching job or even success (see Flyers, Dayton and Knicks, New York).
There are lots of destinations in college basketball where he could go instead of the NBA. Now, if you told me none of the ones he wants are available or have been available in the last couple of years and he's just ready for a change, then sure, this is a reasonable parking lot to go make a few million $ per year extra while you wait for the Kentucky / UNC / Duke / Indiana job to open up.
Actually, that makes more sense than anything to me. Staying at Butler you risk having a couple bad years in the BE and getting labeled as "lucky" instead of good, and losing the opportunity to get that dream college job. Going to the Celtics avoids further tarnishing his college resume (5th in the A10?) and regardless of whether or not he wins games he has the backing of management for a few years at least. He can wait around and get his brains beat in and then have a reasonable excuse to leave the NBA for the college game. Now I get it. He's scared of losing in the BE.
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07-08-2013, 02:07 PM
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I would not go so far as to say "scared", but I do think he has assessed the NBE and knows that his game at Butler has to pickup a click or two. Also think he gets a risk-free pass in Boston for about two seasons with the fans, and maybe more with Ainge.
Stevens cupboard at Butler isn't bare by any means, but the Butler President & AD just kicked the game up a notch. His returning team would win the Horizon. Might even improve on the 5th place A10 finish. Then again, he could finish second tier in the NBE if things don't break right.
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07-08-2013, 03:00 PM
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You have to give VCU a ton of credit, IMO, for hiring Grant and Smart.
Capel had 1 NCAA tournament appearance in 4 years, VCU's first NCAA appearance in 8 years, along with a NIT appearance, but yet they replace Capel with an outsider, Anthony Grant, who was an assistant at Florida.
I don't know what happened there, maybe none of Capel's assistants wanted the VCU job and instead wanted to follow him to Oklahoma.
And then, VCU does the same thing 3 years later hiring Smart, who was also a Florida assistant. Grant went to 2 NCAA's in 3 years, got the Alabama job, but none of Grant's assistants get the VCU job.
Again, maybe none of Grant's assistants were interested in the job, and they all wanted to follow Grant to Alabama.
Those 2 hires seemed to have went against the Xavier/Butler model, but who is to question those hires? Both of those hires worked out well. The Smart hire obviously worked out great: 3 NCAA's in 4 years, including a Final Four appearance.
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07-08-2013, 03:12 PM
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interesting that Grant is has struggled at Bama. 1 NCAA bid in 4 years, I expect the natives are getting restless.
You just never know. Grant walked into a situation at VCU, made it better but now is struggling to rebuild at Bama. He has lost some of his best recruits (Hood, Pollard, etc) so next year doesn't look all that promising. I would not have guessed that Anthony would have struggled to turn around Bama but he has.
I think when things go well there is always an amount of good fortune involved. That is impossible to quantify.
Taking a true mid-major to back to back NCAA title games is pretty much unprecedented and unlikely to happen again. Stevens needed a lot of good fortune to make it happen but there is little doubt he is an exemplary coach whose likes Butler will not see again.
So the question is can Miller keep Butler ship upright? What is an acceptable level of success going forward? Is the task to get the NCAA tourney going to be harder than it was in the Horizon League? (IMO the most important question).
We shall see.
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07-08-2013, 03:34 PM
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Alabama is still better than they were when Grant first took over. Maybe they haven't gotten as good as they want as quickly as they want, but they are improved. Basketball at Alabama is like a restaurant. When the team is winning, everyone shows up and is excited just like people show up at a good restaurant. When the team isn't winning, though, they don't get all that ****ed. They just quit showing up. Kinda like a restaurant where the food is bad.
They have a bunch of seniors this year, and should be in striking distance of the bubble. Their problem is that they just can't seem to shoot the ball. Releford was really the only decent shooter they had, and he's gone now. Their defense is good, and they do a nice job of getting transition points, but they just can't shoot. At all. That's not a good deficiency to have.
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07-08-2013, 03:58 PM
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I became the Captain of the USS Enterprise because I could fly better than anyone else...so please explain to me why so many college basketball players get scholarships...yet can't shoot! Alabama isn't alone!
Spock says it's illogical....I agree!
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07-08-2013, 04:24 PM
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Every year in college b-ball there are about a half dozen players that are blessed to have all the skills. Everyone else has warts--some more than others. But they are also noted for several outstanding traits in their game. Maybe it's defense, rebounding, enormous height or breadth, or both, or all. Maybe it's the verticle leap, plus shot-blocking, or pure shooting. Some who can't shoot a lick, when presented with no other pressures but to stay in the gym and get better at it after graduation, actually do learn the proper mechanics and get better. Some.
But the few outstanding skills that they did have got their foot in the door.
Had a Senior VP tell me centuries ago that promotions are neither fair, nor equitable. Same applies to scholarships. You can have some skills that would really translate well on the
competitive floor, but with bad timing and lacking the stage to show them off, maybe all
those handing out the 'ships never see you.
Happens all the time. I would say that having a team full of bad shooters like Alabama is a bit strange.
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07-08-2013, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
I became the Captain of the USS Enterprise because I could fly better than anyone else...so please explain to me why so many college basketball players get scholarships...yet can't shoot! Alabama isn't alone!
Spock says it's illogical....I agree!
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I remember watching an old video of Red Aeurbach (probably spelled wrong) who said that "shooting is the most important part of the game, if you can't shoot you can't win"
I figure that a lot of these guys don't have someone to teach them the right fundamentals at a young age. You can learn to shoot correctly but it is a lot harder if you have to change everything about your shot. Rhondo is a good example of someone who couldn't shoot but has significantly improved
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07-08-2013, 06:00 PM
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I would agree that putting the pill in the jar is thee most important aspect of the game. But not to the exclusion of everything else. And certainly all 5 guys on the floor don't have to be shooters. Red Auerbach's quotes were more profound than Yogi Berra's, but they both frequently needed an asterisk * next to their quotes.
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07-08-2013, 06:44 PM
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[QUOTE=UDBrian;313971]I remember watching an old video of Red Aeurbach (probably spelled wrong) who said that "shooting is the most important part of the game, if you can't shoot you can't win"
I think Ol' Red said that because he had Bill Russell as his "goalie".
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07-08-2013, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by UDBrian
I remember watching an old video of Red Aeurbach (probably spelled wrong) who said that "shooting is the most important part of the game, if you can't shoot you can't win"
I figure that a lot of these guys don't have someone to teach them the right fundamentals at a young age. You can learn to shoot correctly but it is a lot harder if you have to change everything about your shot. Rhondo is a good example of someone who couldn't shoot but has significantly improved
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Back then it was true. Not anymore. The difference in athleticism is too great. I went to HS with a guy who was the world champion of free throws and set shot 3's. He could not miss if left open. Never got past JV ball.
But in the end you need a coach who sets up his offense to have the shooters shooting, the drivers driving, and the rebounders rebounding. Very few people do everything.
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07-08-2013, 09:06 PM
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Captains log: Attention Archie! You don't need people to do everything if you define roles based on talents and skills. Don't let rebounders think they are shooters (Benson and Oliver) or dribblers think they are low post players (Dillard) and I guarantee the team will respond positively.
Spock says it's only logical to define roles...as his Captain I agree!
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07-09-2013, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rollo
I became the Captain of the USS Enterprise because I could fly better than anyone else...so please explain to me why so many college basketball players get scholarships...yet can't shoot! Alabama isn't alone!
Spock says it's illogical....I agree!
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in the 23rd century its a lot tougher to "red shirt" isn't it captain.
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07-09-2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by UDEE79
in the 23rd century its a lot tougher to "red shirt" isn't it captain.
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Captains log: Medical advances in the 23rd century have eliminated red shirts. ACL's are now fixed overnight...broken bones are fused immediately. Without such advances, we'd be unable to live long or prosper.
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07-09-2013, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by UDEE79
in the 23rd century its a lot tougher to "red shirt" isn't it captain.
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Exactly because in the 23rd century to "red shirt" is to die.
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07-09-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
Neither is the talent-less Celtics. Great venues, great fan bases, great markets, and great history doesn't make a great coaching job or even success (see Flyers, Dayton and Knicks, New York).
There are lots of destinations in college basketball where he could go instead of the NBA. Now, if you told me none of the ones he wants are available or have been available in the last couple of years and he's just ready for a change, then sure, this is a reasonable parking lot to go make a few million $ per year extra while you wait for the Kentucky / UNC / Duke / Indiana job to open up.
Actually, that makes more sense than anything to me. Staying at Butler you risk having a couple bad years in the BE and getting labeled as "lucky" instead of good, and losing the opportunity to get that dream college job. Going to the Celtics avoids further tarnishing his college resume (5th in the A10?) and regardless of whether or not he wins games he has the backing of management for a few years at least. He can wait around and get his brains beat in and then have a reasonable excuse to leave the NBA for the college game. Now I get it. He's scared of losing in the BE.
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You get back into what I have said all along regarding mid-majors. While some of them have solid years and surprise people, they can't hang with the big boys over the course of time. If BS understands this, good for him.
I don't think it is that BS is scared of the NBE. But if I could more than triple my salary, knowing that if I failed after 6 years, I could easily fall back into a 500k plus year NCAA job...why wouldn't I roll the dice.
Money talks and bull**** walks. I don't care what anyone says. You throw me an obscene amount of money and I win no matter what...AMF.
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07-09-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by shocka43
You get back into what I have said all along regarding mid-majors. While some of them have solid years and surprise people, they can't hang with the big boys over the course of time. If BS understands this, good for him.
I don't think it is that BS is scared of the NBE. But if I could more than triple my salary, knowing that if I failed after 6 years, I could easily fall back into a 500k plus year NCAA job...why wouldn't I roll the dice.
Money talks and bull**** walks. I don't care what anyone says. You throw me an obscene amount of money and I win no matter what...AMF.
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I would venture that you've either never had a really, really bad job in your modern professional career or you've never had a really, really good one. I've had both. You can't pay me enough money to take a really bad job again. Life is too short. And you can save a lot of money offering me the chance to do a really good job because I'll do it for cheap.
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07-09-2013, 11:39 AM
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It was a strange move unless he is worried about being able to sustain success at Butler. Obviously there isn't much he could do for an encore at Butler and maybe he was ready for the next challenge. Having said that the NBA is a grueling season where he will be on the road half the time for 6-8 months. Seems to me it is a job for guys who have raised their family not a 30 something with youngsters but what do I know.
at the very least is was a curious move for someone at his stage of life. I realize that being a college coach is time consuming but an NBA coach goes way beyond that.
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07-09-2013, 11:51 AM
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I think it is a great move by him. First off, more money that is simple. Also, if he succeeds then obviously that is a win, but if he fails then he can easily return to the college game like calipari or pitino. IMHO he had pretty much maxed out his potential at butler, and now if the team goes downhill in the new big east, it makes him look even better. Seems like there is no way he can lose in this situation.
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07-09-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
Back then it was true. Not anymore. The difference in athleticism is too great. I went to HS with a guy who was the world champion of free throws and set shot 3's. He could not miss if left open. Never got past JV ball.
But in the end you need a coach who sets up his offense to have the shooters shooting, the drivers driving, and the rebounders rebounding. Very few people do everything.
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He never said that you could be completely worthless in all other aspects of the game. I never said that you could do nothing but shoot the ball and win a championship, not sure why you interpreted it that way.
Of course if you don't have the athletic talent to get your shot off then it doesn't matter how good of a shooter you are.
You don't see the best defensive team win the championship every year. Cincinnati would have been able to win championships under huggins if that was the case
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...ting_bird.nba/
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07-09-2013, 02:56 PM
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!36 comments on Brad Stevens to the Celtics. Wow is this a Butler board? Where's the chatter on UD?
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07-09-2013, 03:11 PM
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Flyer Infatuation With Butler
is caused by Butler replacing UD as Xavier's top in conference rival. Both Butler and Xavier made it to the big league while Dayton remains in purgatory wishing and hoping for their past sins (losses and missed invitations to the NCAA) to be purged with a few good years in the Atlantic Ten conference. All true Flyer fans hope that Archie Miller will achieve what Brad Stevens did in Indianapolis as he launched the Butler Bulldogs into the college basketball elite.
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07-09-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
It was a strange move unless he is worried about being able to sustain success at Butler. Obviously there isn't much he could do for an encore at Butler and maybe he was ready for the next challenge. Having said that the NBA is a grueling season where he will be on the road half the time for 6-8 months. Seems to me it is a job for guys who have raised their family not a 30 something with youngsters but what do I know.
at the very least is was a curious move for someone at his stage of life. I realize that being a college coach is time consuming but an NBA coach goes way beyond that.
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Bass, what is "strange" about this----other than 30' something year old guys (rarely) if ever get a chance to coach the Boston Celtics OR any other NBA team especially when they've never played in the NBA, been an assisitant in the NBA or had some other significant "connection"!
Hell, if they would have offered me a chance to make 22 million or so dollars to coach in NBA arena's, coaching NBA caliber players every night, yada, yada, yada, how does he say NO?
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07-09-2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Sea Bass
It was a strange move unless he is worried about being able to sustain success at Butler. Obviously there isn't much he could do for an encore at Butler and maybe he was ready for the next challenge. Having said that the NBA is a grueling season where he will be on the road half the time for 6-8 months. Seems to me it is a job for guys who have raised their family not a 30 something with youngsters but what do I know.
at the very least is was a curious move for someone at his stage of life. I realize that being a college coach is time consuming but an NBA coach goes way beyond that.
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True, you have to coach and be on the road from October thru April in the NBA, then you are off for 6 months. There is no recruiting in the NBA. You get paid well for doing a lot less work than a college coach when you factor in recruiting. I think Stevens got tired of the recruiting, begging 16 and 17 year olds to come play for "little ole'" Butler. I can't blame the guy.
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07-09-2013, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Windy City Flyer
!36 comments on Brad Stevens to the Celtics. Wow is this a Butler board? Where's the chatter on UD?
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Quite honestly, there isn't a whole lot to talk about when it comes to UD these days.
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07-09-2013, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Captains log: Medical advances in the 23rd century have eliminated red shirts. ACL's are now fixed overnight...broken bones are fused immediately. Without such advances, we'd be unable to live long or prosper.
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Red shirts are not eliminated in the 23rd century by medical advances, they are eliminated by Ruk, the Gorn, the Horta, , Nomad, M-5, the Dikironium cloud, Rojan from the Andromeda galaxy, the touch of Losira, and pretty much anything within 100 yards of the beamdown point of a landing party.
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07-09-2013, 10:38 PM
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07-10-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by UDBrian
He never said that you could be completely worthless in all other aspects of the game. I never said that you could do nothing but shoot the ball and win a championship, not sure why you interpreted it that way.
Of course if you don't have the athletic talent to get your shot off then it doesn't matter how good of a shooter you are.
You don't see the best defensive team win the championship every year. Cincinnati would have been able to win championships under huggins if that was the case
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nb...ting_bird.nba/
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Allow me to use an extreme example to make the point. How athletic do you need to be in darts? Shooting (being able to aim) is everything. Now, imagine that they changed the rules such that you had to run 1 mile between dart throws, and upon reaching the dart board you had 5 seconds to throw. Would the world rankings of dart players change dramatically? I think so, don't you?
Now, shifting to basketball, 50 years ago shooting was "everything." I know it's not entirely true, we're working at the margin here but it's an extremely important margin. Today, with rules changes (defensive rules on body contact, hand checking, etc. + offsensive changes like allowing palming, traveling becoming a quaint memory from black and white films, and the shot clock (which forces teams to take more bad shots than in the past where you just hold the ball until you get a perfect shot)) the premise of the game has moved more toward athleticism and away from shooting.
"Hold the ball until you get an open shot--and you darn well better make it because you don't get that many"--has turned into "get close to the rim as quickly as possible, throw it at the rim, go for the rebound, and get back on defense." Missing a shot is less critical now because there are so many more of them, and with the other rules changes you can use brute strength to get layups so why take a 15 foot jumper?
Last edited by Gazoo; 07-10-2013 at 11:57 AM..
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07-10-2013, 01:16 PM
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If you just said teams today don't value each possession because they know they will get plenty more, I'm with ya.
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07-10-2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by San Diego Flyer
If you just said teams today don't value each possession because they know they will get plenty more, I'm with ya.
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Basically, plus the added impact of referees allowing you to play football around the rim. Put the 2 together and you don't need as much shooting skill as in previous eras.
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07-10-2013, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
Allow me to use an extreme example to make the point. How athletic do you need to be in darts? Shooting (being able to aim) is everything. Now, imagine that they changed the rules such that you had to run 1 mile between dart throws, and upon reaching the dart board you had 5 seconds to throw. Would the world rankings of dart players change dramatically? I think so, don't you?
Now, shifting to basketball, 50 years ago shooting was "everything." I know it's not entirely true, we're working at the margin here but it's an extremely important margin. Today, with rules changes (defensive rules on body contact, hand checking, etc. + offsensive changes like allowing palming, traveling becoming a quaint memory from black and white films, and the shot clock (which forces teams to take more bad shots than in the past where you just hold the ball until you get a perfect shot)) the premise of the game has moved more toward athleticism and away from shooting.
"Hold the ball until you get an open shot--and you darn well better make it because you don't get that many"--has turned into "get close to the rim as quickly as possible, throw it at the rim, go for the rebound, and get back on defense." Missing a shot is less critical now because there are so many more of them, and with the other rules changes you can use brute strength to get layups so why take a 15 foot jumper?
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To further the point about the jump shot. A 15 foot jump shot does wear down defenders as much as a hard drive to the basket. The BG offense and substitution patterns were designed primarily to make opponents MORE tired at the end of the game. You can argue about how successful that strategy was, but many, many coaches use the same philosophy. A missed 15 footer gives the opposition better fast break opportunities and stronger legs, so why not ram it down their throat (and the basket).
The game has evolved. From a fan's point of view, I am not sure for the better.
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07-10-2013, 01:31 PM
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Captain's log: I wonder how many minutes a deadly outside shooter and >1000 pt scorer like Damon Goodwin or Jack Zimmerman would get on the 2013 version of the Flyers...or if they' be relegated to situational minutes.
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I shaved my balls for this?
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07-10-2013, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Captain's log: I wonder how many minutes a deadly outside shooter and >1000 pt scorer like Damon Goodwin or Jack Zimmerman would get on the 2013 version of the Flyers...or if they' be relegated to situational minutes.
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There is always room for a "Deadly" shooter. A "pretty good" shooter is a different story.
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07-10-2013, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rollo
Captain's log: I wonder how many minutes a deadly outside shooter and >1000 pt scorer like Damon Goodwin or Jack Zimmerman would get on the 2013 version of the Flyers...or if they' be relegated to situational minutes.
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Captain,
I would be willing to bet a bunch of tribbles that Damon and Jack wouldn't even be recruited by Archie and staff.
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07-10-2013, 04:56 PM
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Would have thought Redford was a lock to be a deadly shooter. Waste of a scholarship. Have to be lucky to get one out of highschool, but one thing is sure, they have known flaws that rarely get better. We don't get the Curry's of the world.
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11-18-2013, 10:18 PM
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Holy crap! He's 9th in the East!! And 3rd in the Atlantic division!! Of course, the Celtics are 4-7 so not great.
But look at what he's dealing with:
Leading scorer: Jeff Green (Georgetown)
Leading rebounder: Victor Faverani (Brazil--the country)
Assists: . . . Jordan Crawford??? Assists???
Imagine if someone gets injured. . . who will rebound THEN??
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11-18-2013, 10:25 PM
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Roman was a great rebounder; some say he was out of this world. Not sure it matters if that dude is from brazil or not. At any rate, that team isn't very good, but everyone knew that going in.
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11-19-2013, 08:28 AM
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Brad Stevens
Us Beantown fans would settle for a lottery pick type finish...........we have allot of draft picks.
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11-19-2013, 08:32 AM
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Stevens has a lot of issues to deal with. He has a team which requires everyone to play at a high level. Bradley admitted after a loss ended their winning streak that he didn't play as hard as normal and they have lost 2-3 more in a row since then I believe. Most of their players have the ability to start on most teams as role players but not primary option guys.
I was shocked when I watched Faverani from Brazil play. The guy is a physically dominating player who is a legit three point shooter. But, he only seems to play to his current potential about once every three games.
Rhondo will be back but he doesn't play Steven's current motion offense. But, maybe if stevens has a point guard who can break down the defense he will give some power to Rhondo.
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