Just leaving these thoughts here...

[pmcmullen]

1. What will it take to get these guys to play 40, heck, 30 minutes per game? A vast majority of our games have had significant snooze minutes.

2. Jordan Davis. I figured early on in the year his starting spot would be gone, but he flat out doesn't fit. We miss Matos badly, and Cohill shows barely an inkling of being the scorer he was touted to be.

3. Mikesell has taken over as our motor. Maybe Trey is still hurt? I don't know, but he's so streaky. Ryan has been bringing it a vast majority of the year.
As for tonight, Crutcher was awful, but see previous notes on JD and Cohill. He has no backup. Josh had bricks in his shoes and no heart. Terrible showing.

The magic number, 19. 19 turnovers.

All said and done, I highly doubt we have the heart, skill and consistency to win the A10 tourney. This one does it for us. I really hope some of these redshirts next year actually deliver.

[MNFats]

That's a pretty grim analysis from 1 loss. It was a bad loss - but if there is one thing I don't question on this team - it's heart.

You mention that these guys have no backup, but then you are upset that they can't go hard for 40 minutes every night. I think you may have answered your own question there.

[CoffeeCan]

Heart is so subjective. Every fan thinks their team has heart. That is so weak of a defense. Speaking of defense, where was it tonight?

[pmcmullen]

MN, they are D1 athletes. Man up and play. Cohill. Frankie. Heck, Josh. Yes, I will question some heart. We got beat, by hustle. Even coach just admitted that on the air.

Any other additions?

[MNFats]

Originally Posted by pmcmullen MN, they are D1 athletes. Man up and play. Cohill. Frankie. Heck, Josh. Yes, I will question some heart. We got beat, by hustle. Even coach just admitted that on the air. Any other additions?

There were lots of problems tonight - not arguing that. Yes - URI played hard tonight. They played with heart. Doesn't mean we didn't. We fell behind because of the turnovers and allowing easy buckets - and because URI was practically doubling their normal 3pt % in the first half.

A team without heart doesn't battle back from double digits in the 2nd half. The team has problems - which is why we've been forced to have so many comebacks this season. Heart isn't one of those problems.

Yes - they are D1 athletes, but they are still human. We've been playing 7 man basketball for a long stretch now. That catches up with you eventually. If it was that easy - every team would take their best 5 and tell them to go play for 40 minutes. Doesn't work that way.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[maddog07]

Heart does not equal skill... see Landers. How many turnovers for run outs did he have. MVP for URI.
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	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[CoffeeCan]

I have about had it with "we have heart" posts here. Every team plays with heart, in the eyes of their fans.

[longtimefan67]

Originally Posted by CoffeeCan I have about had it with "we have heart" posts here. Every team plays with heart, in the eyes of their fans.

I think they took RI lightly due to the shellacking they applied in February. This game was the ultimate trap game for UD. 3rd game in 6 days, a Dayton team that really only goes 7 men deep and a team you beat badly a few weeks ago spells trouble. A gut punch for sure. How they respond to this loss will tell the tale. But this team shows more "heart" than AM last team that finished with 3 straight losses to end the year.

[pmcmullen]

Originally Posted by CoffeeCan I have about had it with "we have heart" posts here. Every team plays with heart, in the eyes of their fans.

But we do play with heart... 15 minutes a game. Lol

[MNFats]

Originally Posted by pmcmullen But we do play with heart... 15 minutes a game. Lol

As maddog said - skill does not equal heart. You are confusing the two.

I just agreed with maddog. I have to go take a shower.

[shocka43]

Mikesell and Obi were the only ones ready to play from the opening tip. During the first set of URI freethrows our guys had blank stares on their faces.

19 turnovers means they were playing lazy. Trey had crucial turnovers. Most of their turnovers led to points. Our 2 spot is killing us and Cohill is the best offensive and defensive bet. I would like to see the +/- o at the 2.

Mikesell is playing really well. He is doing it at both ends of the court. It wasn't the fact that Crutcher's numbers weren't that good, his guy torched him all night long.

URI played more aggressive and it showed. 3 guys with 4+ fouls with plenty of time on the clock. URI came in and played like men and our guys came in soft. Yes, their two were better than our two...but their other 3 still outplayed the **** out of our other 3 spots on both ends.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[flybye]

The turnovers were just lazy and stupid....nothing to do with tired... bad game...let’s move on and win the next two. Let’s also stop pampering Jalen... he was awful tonite from the start to the finish. They will be ready to go Wed.

[T-Bone 84]

Let’s not confuse “heart” with “focus”. If the guys didn’t have heart, the game would have been over with 10 minutes to go in regulation. The problem was, as shocka43 said, we only had 2 guys who played with focus from the opening tap to the final buzzer. The rest of the team generally played like they were coming out of anesthesia after a wisdom tooth extraction. Lack of focus by 3/4 of the active roster is what cost us this game.
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[soccergod]

I am hoping that with 13 next year if you have an off night by either performance or effort you find your self buried on the bench for the evening , because then that means we have real depth !
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[NJFlyr71]

Turnovers? Did somebody say Turnovers? I'll have the Apple ones. Cause the other kind don't taste so good

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by soccergod I am hoping that with 13 next year if you have an off night by either performance or effort you find your self buried on the bench for the evening , because then that means we have real depth ! Posted via Mobile Device

I’m expecting to see that next year. Coach has already proven he won’t play guys who don’t put forth the effort, if he can put someone in who does. The problem tonight was, out of the 7 guys in the regular rotation, only 2 came ready to play. Next year, you come ready to play, and you play winning basketball, or you sit. I’ll be very surprised if he doesn’t do it that way next season.
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[Flyer2]

They just didn’t show up tonight! At least 2 alley ups to Obi were intercepted, dunks are neat but but not at the cost of not scoring points. Lazy passes and lack of effort in going for the ball.

Mikesell and Obi were the only ones playing hard. Don’t know what is wrong with Josh but at least he made his foul shots.

Stupid turnovers really bummed me out and the two highlights of the evening were the girl that cleans the floor, by the visitors huddle, for her dancing to the music and the Simon says guy.

Rhode Island was embarrassed at home and they returned the favor.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[ChampCar]

Originally Posted by Flyer2 Rhode Island was embarrassed at home and they returned the favor.

That sums it up. RI came in with a chip on their shoulder - kudos to them.



Shot attempt totals RI 63 UD 47. A team with 16 more attempts is tough to beat.

[CT Flyer]

Just finished watching on DVR...how can we not defend our home court???

Crutcher and Davis are so Jekyll and Hyde its unreal. I've been really high on Crutcher for two years now but when he is bad he is really bad. As for Davis a lot of people have said it many times this year but again it's hard to win games when your 2 guard can't score or doesn't really even look to score.

[OSU Flyer]

I wonder how much the 3 game in six days took its toll tonight. The defensive effort seemed deflated from a lot of guys. Play seemed sloppy all around
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[redbengal]

I have to stick up for the defense a little. Langevine and Fatts got theirs but when it counted we played some great D and forced a number of tough 3's. A few times we just couldn't finish those last 5 seconds on D and Fatts or Langevine made us pay. But we just didn't have anyone else contribute on the offensive end besides Mikesell and Obi. Amazing those 2 were able to get the points they did with little to no help from Crutcher, Landers, Davis, and Cunningham. Wish we'd made it a focus when Langevine picked up #4 to go right back at him and get him out of there. Would've removed all doubt from the outcome.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer I wonder how much the 3 game in six days took its toll tonight. The defensive effort seemed deflated from a lot of guys. Play seemed sloppy all around Posted via Mobile Device

If 12k hyped fans on your home court doesn't get you ready to play...nothing will.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by redbengal I have to stick up for the defense a little. Langevine and Fatts got theirs but when it counted we played some great D and forced a number of tough 3's.

That can't just simply occur in 10-15 minutes of a 45 minute basketball game.

[Canonball]

Careless ball handling and not valuing possession. UD had taken momentum and was playing downhill and up goes a 25 footer with little rebounding in place. Not just a bad shot because of those two points, but because it killed the momentum.

Obi plays tough, Cunningham plays soft. Guess which is the frosh!

In so far as the guards go, it's not that we have few options for scoring at the 2 spot (which is true), it's also that not one of those guys could keep Fatts in front of them and the help side always seemed to be a step late. If you're reacting it's over.

Had the tip gone in it all would be washed away. Fought their way on the bubble only to fall off a day later. Now it's gotta be through the tournament.

[BeckysTXA]

Chill guys. Six games left in the season I don’t remember anyone saying we could finish 6-0 and most appeared to be thinking 4-2. We can still exceed that.

Granted this wasn’t the game anyone had in the loss column, but here we are...with a realistic chance at a 20-win season and a top 4 finish...which no one predicted going into the season.

I didn’t believe we were an at large team before this game. We still need to win the A10 to get in. Otherwise it will be an NIT bid and I’m good with either of those, actually excited for post-season play.

And if losing this game ticks the players off and they carry that chip on their shoulders into the A10 tourney I’m good with that too.

Go Flyers.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by CoffeeCan I have about had it with "we have heart" posts here. Every team plays with heart, in the eyes of their fans.

Agree. "Heart" usually enters the conversation when the same players come out and play lackadaisically.

[CT Flyer]

After a night of sleeping on it can someone answer me this question?

How does a team playing in front of a sellout home crowd, fighting for their A10 seeding and fighting for their at-large life, not win this game?

I'm not looking for specific plays, players or statistics that prove why we didn't win. I want to know from an emotional and mental standpoint how we could not win that game.

[hawkoooo]

JD went to the bucket a bunch during the UMass game...look what happened. Did Jordan drive hard to the bucket one time last night?

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[SeasonTicketFan]

Originally Posted by shocka43 If 12k hyped fans on your home court doesn't get you ready to play...nothing will.

I think the issue was overconfidence. You see this all the time in sports. You whack the opponent and you blindly believe you will do the same. Meanwhile, the opponent has their pride kicked and they come out with a chip on their shoulder. Unfortunately, we have all done it. 18-21 years olds do it.

UD plays best when they are the underdog. The history of the program is they don't always handle being the favorite well. Last night was a perfect example.

[jack72]

Three games in six days was our problem? Apparently Mikesell and Obi did not get the memo. The problem was that Davis, Crutcher, Landers and Cunningham played like crap, and all on the same night.

[BeckysTXA]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer After a night of sleeping on it can someone answer me this question? How does a team playing in front of a sellout home crowd, fighting for their A10 seeding and fighting for their at-large life, not win this game? I'm not looking for specific plays, players or statistics that prove why we didn't win. I want to know from an emotional and mental standpoint how we could not win that game.

It happens to a lot of teams every year. It’s how Indiana with only 3 conference wins at the time and playing 500-ish ball, traveled to #6-8 MI State and knock them off 79-75 in OT. There are other examples if you want to dig them out.

We’re living on basically a 7 player rotation and mental fortitude and physical speed will dip somewhere a couple times under those circumstances. We’re seemed a step slow on defense. The legs were tired which also affects your shooting. And a lot of our turnovers were a step slow or mental mistakes.

I want this team to win their next game and put up 20 wins this year. I hope they can do that without draining their tanks, but I’ll be proud of them even if they can’t re-charge because they far exceeded my expectations this year even if they finish with 19 wins.

[312to937]

Originally Posted by BeckysTXA It happens to a lot of teams every year. It’s how Indiana with only 3 conference wins at the time and playing 500-ish ball, traveled to #6-8 MI State and knock them off 79-75 in OT. There are other examples if you want to dig them out. We’re living on basically a 7 player rotation and mental fortitude and physical speed will dip somewhere a couple times under those circumstances. We’re seemed a step slow on defense. The legs were tired which also affects your shooting. And a lot of our turnovers were a step slow or mental mistakes. I want this team to win their next game and put up 20 wins this year. I hope they can do that without draining their tanks, but I’ll be proud of them even if they can’t re-charge because they far exceeded my expectations this year even if they finish with 19 wins.

I guess it's your bar, so you can set it as low as you want. But I can't believe anyone in the program would be "proud" or satisfied if this team ends the year at 19 wins. That means they drop their last three regular season games and the first round game in the A10 tourney.

[CvilleFlyer]

Originally Posted by jack72 Three games in six days was our problem? Apparently Mikesell and Obi did not get the memo. The problem was that Davis, Crutcher, Landers and Cunningham played like crap, and all on the same night.

I saw a replay of the last play in regulation and even though Davis, Crutcher, Landers and Cunningham played like crap we still should have won! It was like the Red Sea parted after Crutcher's missed three pointer as Lander's came down the lane and instead of flushing the ball with two hands he tried to finesse it in and we all know what happened....it rolled off to the disbelief of us all!

I think that early in the season Lander's was more aggressive and played with more intensity and would have dunked the ball instead of just trying to tip it in! His confidence has dwindled, maybe because of his injury, which has led to him being hesitant to shoot even when he is open. His 2 or 3 turnovers contributed to us losing the game but he had the chance to be the hero and I am really disappointed for him.

I agree that Ryan and Obi were the only ones who had intensity last night and you can count on them bringing it every game! The other four players in the rotation plus Cohill are too much finesse. My opinion is that finesse leads to turnovers because it allows opponents to get in passing lanes for a steal. Instead, we need to be tougher and drive the ball to the basket! We definitely would have fouled Langevine out of the game and then it would have been....GAME OVER!

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by 312to937 I guess it's your bar, so you can set it as low as you want. But I can't believe anyone in the program would be "proud" or satisfied if this team ends the year at 19 wins. That means they drop their last three regular season games and the first round game in the A10 tourney.

I think Becky’s point is, if the average, unbiased college basketball fan looked at this team last October, which was:
-coming off a 14-17 season;
-losing half of last year’s roster (though, arguably, only about 20% of the talent); and
-having 5 new faces out of 9 eligible players;

Then yeah, finishing the regular season 18-13 was a fairly realistic objective, and anything better than that would be a plus. We still have a chance to finish 21-10. Yes, there are some disappointing losses in that 10 (especially last night’s stinker), but still 21-10 is “progress” when you consider where we were 6 months ago.

And I’ll go out on a limb here, and predict that we win the next 2, just because the team as a whole will be pi$$ed off enough to prove that last night was the exception and not the rule.
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[CT Flyer]

If Trey dunked it he would not have gotten it off in time. I don't think it had anything to do with his confidence on that particular play. Although I do think his confidence has waned and if he got that to fall it may have sparked his confidence moving forward.

[OSU Flyer]

This team isn’t good enough to survive the guards no showing like they did last night. Defensively that was the effort I’ve seen out of Crutcher and Davis this season

The team isn’t good enough to survive dual bad games from Crutcher and Davis
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[mikeymo85]

I blame the refs. Isaid we were in trouble during warm ups when I saw the tall bald DJ.
remember when Demayo and DJ use to ref together? those were good times

[CT Flyer]

One thing that struck me last night was we made a 6 or 8 0 run to cut it to 2 and URI took a timeout. The crowd was obviously going crazy and all five guys on the court walked back to the huddle, no emotion, no high fives, no clapping. I know you need to keep emotions in check and not let them get the best of you but some emotion would have been nice at that point. The bench was excited but the five on the floor were very stoic. Seemed odd to me.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[TA111]

Originally Posted by OSU Flyer This team isn’t good enough to survive the guards no showing like they did last night. Defensively that was the effort I’ve seen out of Crutcher and Davis this season The team isn’t good enough to survive dual bad games from Crutcher and Davis Posted via Mobile Device

And then add bad games from Cunningham and Landers. It’s amazing we were in a position to win the game.

[bcross]

Couple thoughts to some of the posts.

1) Rhode Island played 7 guys and it was there 3rd game in 7 days. I think we may be trying to hard to rationalize the effort we saw last night. This is a team we just beat by 29 points, and if just one other guy outside of Toppin/Mikesell showed up last night, we would have won. It's disappointing/frustrating and there's plenty of blame to go around.

2) Preseason predictions are just that. If I had predicted a win total in October, I'm sure they will have surpassed it by the end of the year. At the same time, I don't feel this team is overachieved at this point. Had everyone known exactly what we had in Toppin and how Mikesell would come back from injury, I think those predictions would have been a lot more optimistic. There isn't a team in the A10 that I feel has more talent than us. Put it all together in Brooklyn, and this team will be back in the dance. Show up like last night and there won't be a second game.

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[312to937]

Originally Posted by bcross Couple thoughts to some of the posts. 1) Rhode Island played 7 guys and it was there 3rd game in 7 days. I think we may be trying to hard to rationalize the effort we saw last night. This is a team we just beat by 29 points, and if just one other guy outside of Toppin/Mikesell showed up last night, we would have won. It's disappointing/frustrating and there's plenty of blame to go around. 2) Preseason predictions are just that. If I had predicted a win total in October, I'm sure they will have surpassed it by the end of the year. At the same time, I don't feel this team is overachieved at this point. Had everyone known exactly what we had in Toppin and how Mikesell would come back from injury, I think those predictions would have been a lot more optimistic. There isn't a team in the A10 that I feel has more talent than us. Put it all together in Brooklyn, and this team will be back in the dance. Show up like last night and there won't be a second game.

Good and fair observations. In regards to the preseason predictions, I think the schedule looked a lot tougher in October than it does now. UVA is a legit national champ contender, and Miss St. has been a top 25 team most of the year. So those two bumps up SOS. But after that? A10 is clearly down, and here's how the other noncon "big dogs" seasons have played out:

Oklahoma: 5-10 and 8th place (out of 10 teams)
Auburn: 8-7 and 8th place (out of 14 teams, albeit in a strong SEC this year)
Butler: 6-9 and 7th place (out of 10 teams)
Tulsa: 7-9 and 8th place (out of 12 teams).

We went 1-5 against those teams (only one of which was a true road game).
Four of the six teams are in the bottom half of their conference standings.

Knowing that now, how many Priders would set the bar at 0-6?

	Rhode Island RHODE ISLAND The University of Rhode Island was chartered as the state's agricultural school in 1888. The school became the Rhode Island College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts in 1892. Located in southern Rhode Island, URI is a quintessential New England campus - rural in feeling yet close to the city of Providence, the state's capital. Linked to the city, the beaches, and nearly every corner of the state by both rail and public transit, the campus is easily accessible from Boston and New York URI currently offers 100 majors in seven degree-granting colleges. There are more than 12,000 students on the Kingston campus, about 3,000 in Providence, and a complement of about 700 faculty. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Rams.

[WarriorPride]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer One thing that struck me last night was we made a 6 or 8 0 run to cut it to 2 and URI took a timeout. The crowd was obviously going crazy and all five guys on the court walked back to the huddle, no emotion, no high fives, no clapping. I know you need to keep emotions in check and not let them get the best of you but some emotion would have been nice at that point. The bench was excited but the five on the floor were very stoic. Seemed odd to me.

It's because they are dead tired.

How Cohill only plays 13 of 45 minutes is criminal. Especially when Crutcher and Davis were awful. Not subbing until the under 12 in both halves with a 7 man rotation will get you beat late in games all the time.

[BeckysTXA]

Originally Posted by 312to937 I guess it's your bar, so you can set it as low as you want. But I can't believe anyone in the program would be "proud" or satisfied if this team ends the year at 19 wins. That means they drop their last three regular season games and the first round game in the A10 tourney.

I would if it was clear their tanks just ran dry. I don’t expect to finish at 19 wins. But I’ll feel for the guys if we do because they gave so much all year with half a deck depth wise. There isn’t anyone on this team I wouldn’t want back next year. That was not the case last year.

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by mikeymo85 I blame the refs. Isaid we were in trouble during warm ups when I saw the tall bald DJ. remember when Demayo and DJ use to ref together? those were good times

First time DJ has been in the house this year and maybe the last two. Mostly doing the Big 10 games. He actually didn't have a bad game for once. I only called him out of his name a couple times.

[LIBob]

Originally Posted by shocka43 If 12k hyped fans on your home court doesn't get you ready to play...nothing will.

I actually think the atmosphere was part of the turnover problem. Several of them were created by trying to create the highlight reel play.

[BeckysTXA]

Originally Posted by 312to937 I guess it's your bar, so you can set it as low as you want. But I can't believe anyone in the program would be "proud" or satisfied if this team ends the year at 19 wins. That means they drop their last three regular season games and the first round game in the A10 tourney.

And just like that, Indiana knocks off #6 MI St again for the second time this year. Now that doesn’t happen very often. And you would have thought MI St would have known they were capable of it.

[312to937]

Originally Posted by BeckysTXA And just like that, Indiana knocks off #6 MI St again for the second time this year. Now that doesn’t happen very often. And you would have thought MI St would have known they were capable of it.

That was a surprise. Archie sleeps better tonight.
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[longtimefan]

Indiana is up to 6-12 in the Big Ten. They just clinched an at-large bid!

[T-Bone 84]

Originally Posted by TA111 ...It’s amazing we were in a position to win the game.

That’s a credit to Obi and Ryan. But you can’t expect to play 2-on-5 and win.
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[BeckysTXA]

Originally Posted by longtimefan Indiana is up to 6-12 in the Big Ten. They just clinched an at-large bid!

As long as they can keep their record above 50% they probably did.

[steverino015]

Originally Posted by T-Bone 84 That’s a credit to Obi and Ryan. But you can’t expect to play 2-on-5 and win. Posted via Mobile Device

right here, spot on

[shocka43]

Originally Posted by longtimefan Indiana is up to 6-12 in the Big Ten. They just clinched an at-large bid!

First Four at UD....lol

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by shocka43 First Four at UD....lol

If they get to 8-12 and win their first round B10 tourney game, with their wins, they deserve to be in the discussion. They'll be an interesting case study.

[JimBo]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER If they get to 8-12 and win their first round B10 tourney game, with their wins, they deserve to be in the discussion. They'll be an interesting case study.

If you only finish 8-12 in conference play, you should never be in the discussion.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by JimBo If you only finish 8-12 in conference play, you should never be in the discussion.

I'm the last person that will ever be confused as a P5 apologist and the "old school" guy in me would agree with you, but............

.........that line has moved with the expansion of conferences and expansion of conference schedules. When you have leagues, like the ACC and B10, that have 6 teams in the Top 25, the below .500 record in conference can't be a "hard line" when evaluating teams for at-large consideration.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER I'm the last person that will ever be confused as a P5 apologist and the "old school" guy in me would agree with you, but............ .........that line has moved with the expansion of conferences and expansion of conference schedules. When you have leagues, like the ACC and B10, that have 6 teams in the Top 25, the below .500 record in conference can't be a "hard line" when evaluating teams for at-large consideration.

.500 is the hard line to be eligible for one of the ‘200’ bowl games in football. It should be even more so when fighting for just 1 of 27 spots. Can’t win even half of them you’ve shown you are average on most nights.
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[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer .500 is the hard line to be eligible for on of the 200 bowl games in football. It should be even more so when fighting for just 1 of 27 spots. Can’t win even half of them you’ve shown you are average on most nights. Posted via Mobile Device

When you have THAT many teams in your league that are Top 25, I think you can play above average on many nights and still lose. With that many teams in the Top 25, I believe you can have an at-large worthy team below .500 in conference play, particularly when at-large selection is subjective.

[Marysville Flyer]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER When you have THAT many teams in your league that are Top 25, I think you can play above average on many nights and still lose. With that many teams in the Top 25, I believe you can have an at-large worthy team below .500 in conference play, particularly when at-large selection is subjective.

If Indiana gets in it’s a travesty I don’t care how hard the BIG supposedly is.
First of all top 25 should not be the measure especially with all the weighted inaccuracies in the methodologies used to set those rankings


We lose to RI or UMass and it’s a horrible loss and 1-2 of those prove we don’t belong regardless of our other 28 games. P5 school gets 10-15 chances to get a statement win and literally 1-2 good wins gets them in no matter how many bad losses they have in their other 28 games.

P5 = looking at as few games as needed to find any chance to put them in
Non-P5 = looking at as few of games as possible for any chance to keep them out

Sounds fair and equitable to me. The results the Butlers, X, VCU, Loyola .... have had over the past 10 years as compared to the number of chances to me shows the need for more 2nd place mid major finishers not less but that’s just me thinking the goal is to let that be proven on the court not by the almighty dollar.
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	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer .500 is the hard line to be eligible for one of the ‘200’ bowl games in football. It should be even more so when fighting for just 1 of 27 spots. Can’t win even half of them you’ve shown you are average on most nights.

That is overall winning percentage, and not conference winning percentage, and that is in effect for all NCAA tournaments. Ohio State has missed the tournament in women's volleyball in the past because of a sub-500 overall record, while having a top 50 RPI. (maybe it was top 40...)

[CT Flyer]

Again the trend continues to be valuing close losses as much as wins, especially for P5 schools. There is no other sport where close losses count for anything more than a loss.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer If Indiana gets in it’s a travesty I don’t care how hard the BIG supposedly is. First of all top 25 should not be the measure especially with all the weighted inaccuracies in the methodologies used to set those rankings We lose to RI or UMass and it’s a horrible loss and 1-2 of those prove we don’t belong regardless of our other 28 games. P5 school gets 10-15 chances to get a statement win and literally 1-2 good wins gets them in no matter how many bad losses they have in their other 28 games. P5 = looking at as few games as needed to find any chance to put them in Non-P5 = looking at as few of games as possible for any chance to keep them out Sounds fair and equitable to me. The results the Butlers, X, VCU, Loyola .... have had over the past 10 years as compared to the number of chances to me shows the need for more 2nd place mid major finishers not less but that’s just me thinking the goal is to let that be proven on the court not by the almighty dollar. Posted via Mobile Device

Also, please don't get lost after multiple posts on my initial comment(s).

I'm not suggesting Indiana should get in or would get in IF they finish at 8-12 and win their first B10 tourney game.

But their resume at that point would demand they be in the conversation when you couple it with wins over Marquette, Louisville, Butler, Michigan St. x 2, and Wisconsin.

	Massachusetts MASSACHUSETTS UMass Amherst, the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts system, sits on nearly 1,450-acres in the scenic Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts, 90 miles from Boston and 175 miles from New York City. The campus provides a rich cultural environment in a rural setting close to major urban centers. UMass enrolls over 20,000 undergraduates and 5,000 post-grad students. Fellow members of the A10 Conference. Nickname is the Minutemen. Women's teams known as the Minutewomen. Sports achievements include NCAA Final Four appearances in men's basketball and women's soccer.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by CT Flyer Again the trend continues to be valuing close losses as much as wins, especially for P5 schools. There is no other sport where close losses count for anything more than a loss.

Yep, that's apparently part of the NET rankings. To be honest, our "competitive" losses to quality teams is probably helping us this year.

I hate that the value of actually winning seems to be diminished in some capacity.

[superfan99]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER I'm the last person that will ever be confused as a P5 apologist and the "old school" guy in me would agree with you, but............ .........that line has moved with the expansion of conferences and expansion of conference schedules. When you have leagues, like the ACC and B10, that have 6 teams in the Top 25, the below .500 record in conference can't be a "hard line" when evaluating teams for at-large consideration.

I think we can all agree that SLUFLYER is no longer the "last person" that will ever be confused as a P5 apologist..at a minimum Marysvilleflyer wins that contest.

[superfan99]

I would rather see a team that hasn't had many opportunities get a chance, than put a below .500 conference team in that has had a whole season already proving they aren't better. We already know Indiana isn't better than most of the Big 10. We aren't sure yet if the same is true for some of the top Non-P5 teams because they haven't had to chance to prove or disprove it yet. But I also believe that the main reason to watch the tourney is for the cinderella stories. Loyola was the best part of last years March Madness in my opinion.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER wins over Marquette, Louisville, Michigan St. x 2, and Wisconsin.

If UD had these wins, there's not a person on UDPride who wouldn't be apologizing for our overall and/or conference record.

[flyerfanatic86]

The problem is the selection is moving away from the most "deserving" teams to the "best" teams. It's why they are including efficiency metrics and excusing close losses against good teams. I disagree with the entire fundamental philosophy of it. If the best teams get left out because their resume doesn't warrant inclusion, then that is on them. They should have won games.

I'd be ok using the "best" team concept for seeding, but when it comes to who is in and out, that should only be using the resume.

[CE80]

Originally Posted by flyerfanatic86 The problem is the selection is moving away from the most "deserving" teams to the "best" teams. It's why they are including efficiency metrics and excusing close losses against good teams. I disagree with the entire fundamental philosophy of it. If the best teams get left out because their resume doesn't warrant inclusion, then that is on them. They should have won games. I'd be ok using the "best" team concept for seeding, but when it comes to who is in and out, that should only be using the resume.

Add in blow out wins to poor teams. That is the NC State model.

All this adds up to a the perfect storm for the P5. Blow out wins in your non-conference home buy games, win a couple of conference games against the better teams - out of your many opportunities. Stay close in the rest.

Anyone on twitter should be following Mark Adams (@EnthusiAdams)

[NCkevi]

Originally Posted by rollo If UD had these wins, there's not a person on UDPride who wouldn't be apologizing for our overall and/or conference record.

Wonder if UD would have any additional quality wins if they had a chance to play 9 ranked teams (with 5 at home in the past 5 weeks)

[TXFlyerFan]

It's not just a question of Indiana's conference record. Their conference record is 6-12 but their overall record is 15-14. So not only are they sub .500 in conference but only 1 game over .500 in total. Which means they went 9-2 in OOC. And while they did have wins over Butler, Louisville, and Marquette, they other 6 were against lowly teams like Chicago State (3-27 and makes Coppin St look good), Montana State (13-14), UT Arlington (15-15), UC Davis (11-17), Central Arkansas (11-18) and Jacksonville (12-19). And the two losses were to Arkansas (1 pt loss) and Duke (blowout loss). Finally, all of their OOC wins were at home, while the two losses were on the road.

So Indiana feasted at home on a bunch of nobody's, lost on the road twice in OOC, and only two of their conference wins have come on the road, only one of which was to a good team (MSU) that had to miss 14FTs to lose.

IU shouldn't be in ANY discussion for a bubble spot, regardless of a few good wins.

[SLUFLYER]

Originally Posted by TXFlyerFan It's not just a question of Indiana's conference record. Their conference record is 6-12 but their overall record is 15-14. So not only are they sub .500 in conference but only 1 game over .500 in total. Which means they went 9-2 in OOC. And while they did have wins over Butler, Louisville, and Marquette, they other 6 were against lowly teams like Chicago State (3-27 and makes Coppin St look good), Montana State (13-14), UT Arlington (15-15), UC Davis (11-17), Central Arkansas (11-18) and Jacksonville (12-19). And the two losses were to Arkansas (1 pt loss) and Duke (blowout loss). Finally, all of their OOC wins were at home, while the two losses were on the road. So Indiana feasted at home on a bunch of nobody's, lost on the road twice in OOC, and only two of their conference wins have come on the road, only one of which was to a good team (MSU) that had to miss 14FTs to lose. IU shouldn't be in ANY discussion for a bubble spot, regardless of a few good wins.

A couple of points, so folks don't get lost.

1) Their win over Butler was not at home. It was neutral.

2) I'm not suggesting that an Indiana team that is 15-14 and 6-12 should be in the discussion. But I am suggesting that an Indiana team that is 18-14 and 9-12, which is where they would be if they won their next three, and has five (5) and potentially six (6) Quad 1 wins should be in the discussion.

3) They have more than a "few" good wins. They have 5 Quad 1 wins and another that is Quad 2 and could very well end up a Quad 1. And of those Quad 1 wins, two are Top 10 wins. Maybe you are correct, they have a few good wins. And they have a few GREAT wins too.

Correction - they have 6 Quad 1 wins and another Quad 2 that is lingering close to Quad 1. Their win at Penn State is a Quad 1 win. Yes, I am laughing, as a road win against 12-17 Penn State is a Quad 1 win.

[TXFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by SLUFLYER A couple of points, so folks don't get lost. 1) Their win over Butler was not at home. It was neutral. 2) I'm not suggesting that an Indiana team that is 15-14 and 6-12 should be in the discussion. But I am suggesting that an Indiana team that is 18-14 and 9-12, which is where they would be if they won their next three, and has five (5) and potentially six (6) Quad 1 wins should be in the discussion. 3) They have more than a "few" good wins. They have 5 Quad 1 wins and another that is Quad 2 and could very well end up a Quad 1. And of those Quad 1 wins, two are Top 10 wins. Maybe you are correct, they have a few good wins. And they have a few GREAT wins too. Correction - they have 6 Quad 1 wins and another Quad 2 that is lingering close to Quad 1. Their win at Penn State is a Quad 1 win. Yes, I am laughing, as a road win against 12-17 Penn State is a Quad 1 win.

Thanks for the correction on the Butler game. It wasn't listed as away on ESPN so just assumed it was a home game.

I think though, the rest of you post, gets to the point, which is that the P5 is a self-referencing, self-reinforcing circle whereby teams get more Q1/Q2 opportunities that shouldn't exist. How Penn State is a Q1 win beggars belief. I mean yes, they have three good wins over Michigan, Virginia Tech, and Maryland, but they are 5-13 in conference and 12-17 overall. How does that rate as a Q1 win?