You Make the Call - 5th foul...

[rollo]

My man, Kendall Pollard, is having a bad day at the free throw line. At the 4:22 mark of the 2nd half and UD leading Mississippi A&T 84-44, KP is a miserable 0-9 and his frustration is showing in his defensive efforts as his 4 lazy fouls shows.

Leading a 3-on-1 fast break, Scoochie pulls up at the free throw line and pulls up the lone defender. With the right lane open, he dishes nicely to Pollard who with the ball in his hand has visions of backboard-breaking grandeur...except the lone A&T defender has different ideas and quickly recovers and hacks Pollard hard across the arms before he can get off the ground. DeMayo runs in, whistle blowing hard, and signals '2' FT's.

Pollard is PO'd and while walking to the free-throw line, gets in the A&T defender face and - in a not-so-Royal way - disparages the A&T player's mother, grandmother, sistah, baby and all 9 of his neck tattoos! DeMayo, in an attempt to prevent an all out brawl, blows his whistle and gives Pollard a 'T'...which we all know also counts toward disqualification...well, all but the official scorer who fails to inform DeMayo, Miller or Pollard that KP just fouled out.

Pollard goes to the FT line, makes both, at which time the official scorer finally realizes his mistake and calls over all the officials and Coach Miller to explain that Pollard should have fouled out before the FT's were awarded.

After a 5-minute delay, DeMayo blows his whistle, points to Pollard and the FT line and....


...well, you make the call!

[Gazoo]

Correctable mistake, wipe the FTs, Pollard to the bench, and Miller gets to choose the replacement FT shooter.

That's a SWAG.

[N2663R]

I believe Gazoo is correct. According to the NCAA rule book:

Section 3. Who Attempts
Art. 1. Personal fouls—The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player, unless one of the conditions of Article 2 and 3 of this section are met.
Art 2. The free throw(s) that were to be attempted by the offended player shall be attempted by that player’s substitute unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate shall attempt the free throw(s) when the offended player is disqualified or must withdraw because he is bleeding or has blood on his uniform or person, or when a player is withdrawn because of a lost, displaced or irritated contact lens.

Section 12. Disqualified Player
Art. 1. A disqualified player is one who is barred from further participation in a game after receiving a fifth foul, including personal fouls and CLASS A technical fouls.

I would assume that this would also be the case if say: KP made the first free throw, and then got "T"ed for getting in the face of the opposing player, before attempting the second freethrow.

[Figgie123]

So, you're telling me that Pollard is 0-9 from the FT line all day. The Flyers are up by 40, with 4:22 to go, and A&T is in the double bonus, and Pollard is still in. And then Pollard hits both of the FTs?

Man, these scenarios are going further and further out to the extreme nonsensical each week. I mean, I suppose a blind FT squirrel (Pollard) can find his nuts twice in a row on certain days.

And I think the opposing team chooses a player on the court, after the rule change after the Huelsman/Williams shenanigans we pulled back in the NIT year (I think that's when it was).

[cj]

I vote C

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 Man, these scenarios are going further and further out to the extreme nonsensical each week.

Just wait until next week when we're forced by the weather to pull you out of the stands and officiate! You and the next 2 that complain...

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 So, you're telling me that Pollard is 0-9 from the FT line all day. The Flyers are up by 40, with 4:22 to go, and A&T is in the double bonus, and Pollard is still in. And then Pollard hits both of the FTs? Man, these scenarios are going further and further out to the extreme nonsensical each week. I mean, I suppose a blind FT squirrel (Pollard) can find his nuts twice in a row on certain days.

I don't think this is a rules question at all. This is a "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound" question. If we are beating Mississippi A&T by 40 with 4:22 left, then clearly there is no one left in the arena to witness such a foul scenario. Therefore, were the fouls ever committed in the first place??

[rollo]

We now have 2 refs for next week...and more takers???

Clayton???

[IndianaFlyer]

I go with B.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by rollo My man, Kendall Pollard, is having a bad day at the free throw line. !

Need more information. Please define what a bad day at the free throw line for Kendall Pollard entails? I know that 50 percent is bordering on a great day.

BTW, love the question because I have no idea what the answer is.

[Smitty10]

Originally Posted by N2663R I believe Gazoo is correct. According to the NCAA rule book: Section 3. Who Attempts Art. 1. Personal fouls—The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player, unless one of the conditions of Article 2 and 3 of this section are met. Art 2. The free throw(s) that were to be attempted by the offended player shall be attempted by that player’s substitute unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate shall attempt the free throw(s) when the offended player is disqualified or must withdraw because he is bleeding or has blood on his uniform or person, or when a player is withdrawn because of a lost, displaced or irritated contact lens. Section 12. Disqualified Player Art. 1. A disqualified player is one who is barred from further participation in a game after receiving a fifth foul, including personal fouls and CLASS A technical fouls. I would assume that this would also be the case if say: KP made the first free throw, and then got "T"ed for getting in the face of the opposing player, before attempting the second freethrow.

Okay, let me get this straight. Tie ballgame. 4 seconds left on the clock. Pollard get fouled putting up one of his great 3 point attempts and it rims out. One second now remains.

Strategy: Tell Pollard to get T'd up for his 5th foul. Send in a replica of Chris Johnson in to replace Pollard. Flyers up by 3. Opponent get two throws and one second to inbound the ball and score again. A sound strategy to me.

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

After a dozen ballots cast, So far I am the only one to vote for A.

Once points are on the board in this situation, they are not allowed to come off.

The rules cited by N2663R are correct, but do not address this situation where KP already made his shots, thus remained in the game after what should have been his disqualification, before the score keepers mistake is discovered.

Is this the rule? I am not sure, just trying to use a bit of logic on it all, but based on Rollos track record I can make up any kind of BS and chances are I am more accurate than the former King

And yes, sign me up to officiate next week!

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan After a dozen ballots cast, So far I am the only one to vote for A. Once points are on the board in this situation, they are not allowed to come off. The rules cited by N2663R are correct, but do not address this situation where KP already made his shots, thus remained in the game after what should have been his disqualification, before the score keepers mistake is discovered. Is this the rule? I am not sure, just trying to use a bit of logic on it all, but based on Rollos track record I can make up any kind of BS and chances are I am more accurate than the former King

Clayton, I understand where you are coming from. To me, the ultimate question is whether or not the officials can correct an error that occurs during a dead ball situation, before the clock or play resumes. Does that sound correct??

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

Originally Posted by N2663R Clayton, I understand where you are coming from. To me, the ultimate question is whether or not the officials can correct an error that occurs during a dead ball situation, before the clock or play resumes. Does that sound correct??

I think they can correct an error during a dead ball, but even though the clock does not move on the foul shots, when the official handed the ball to KP to shoot his foul shot, play had indeed resumed.

Once points on the board in this situation, no rewind button on the game.

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan I think they can correct an error during a dead ball, but even though the clock does not move on the foul shots, when the official handed the ball to KP to shoot his foul shot, play had indeed resumed. Once points on the board in this situation, no rewind button on the game.

Yes, but . . . How many times have we seen a ref either stop the clock or at the first available dead ball go to the scorers table to review a 3pt shot to see if a foot was on the line, and if so, change a 3pt shot to a 2pt shot thus taking points off the board after the play and after time has elapsed?

So, here's my made up rule: A referee can correct any rules violation during a dead ball situation from the time the clock last started until the clock starts again. Once the clock starts, anything that happened prior, is in the books.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by N2663R Yes, but . . . How many times have we seen a ref either stop the clock or at the first available dead ball go to the scorers table to review a 3pt shot to see if a foot was on the line, and if so, change a 3pt shot to a 2pt shot thus taking points off the board after the play and after time has elapsed? So, here's my made up rule: A referee can correct any rules violation during a dead ball situation from the time the clock last started until the clock starts again. Once the clock starts, anything that happened prior, is in the books.

You, Clayton and Figgie are going to make one heck of an officiating crew next week.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan After a dozen ballots cast, So far I am the only one to vote for A.

And you are the only winner! As you said once the points are counted it's hard to take them off...it can be done but in this situation the points stay because and only because Miller and the refs weren't informed that Pollard had fouled out before he shot the FT's. Had they been informed of his disqualification and still let him shoot the FT's they it would have been correctable, but since nobody was informed, the points count...and once the refs and coach were notified of the 5th foul, Pollard would then have to be removed from the game.

Good call Clayton. I have high hopes for you in next week's YMtC.

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan but based on Rollos track record I can make up any kind of BS and chances are I am more accurate than the former King

Former?!! I think NOT!

[ClaytonFlyerFan]

It's a shame more do not read the You Make the Calls or partipate.

Of course since the founder of You Make the Call, former King Rollo has ****ed off so many people on here over the years, they probably have him blocked and do not even see the threads he posts.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by ClaytonFlyerFan It's a shame more do not read the You Make the Calls or partipate.

Most mortals don't like to be reminded of how little they know about things they love...which is something Royal immortals like myself will never understand.

Regardless, the YMtC's will continue to challenge the minds and spirits of those with the thickest skin and overly inflated balls...which is something this Royal immortal does comprehend.

[Figgie123]

Originally Posted by rollo ...and overly inflated egos...which is something this royal immortal does comprehend.

ftfy!

[N2663R]

Originally Posted by rollo And you are the only winner! As you said once the points are counted it's hard to take them off...it can be done but in this situation the points stay because and only because Miller and the refs weren't informed that Pollard had fouled out before he shot the FT's. Had they been informed of his disqualification and still let him shoot the FT's they it would have been correctable, but since nobody was informed, the points count...and once the refs and coach were notified of the 5th foul, Pollard would then have to be removed from the game.

Can you point me to the applicable sections in the rule book that back up your assertions? Also, if I understand you correctly, it is the responsibility of the "scorers table" to count fouls and determine "foul outs"?

[rollo]

Originally Posted by N2663R Can you point me to the applicable sections in the rule book that back up your assertions? Also, if I understand you correctly, it is the responsibility of the "scorers table" to count fouls and determine "foul outs"?

I'll post the Rule citation tomorrow or Sunday or as time allows...today the back tees of NCR South are calling and I'll be busy all morning and afternoon teaching it a lesson....and my 19-year old son who still thinks he can beat me!

I'll tell you this, the scorer's table 'ref' is an extension of the officiating staff and YES, it's his responsibility to inform the coach and officials that a player has fouled out. Most of the time it's obvious, but not every school has super-techno scoreboards or well trained scorekeepers.

[rollo]

Originally Posted by Figgie123 ftfy!

I honestly don't have an ego....I just have a greater purpose than everyone else!

[rollo]

Originally Posted by N2663R Can you point me to the applicable sections in the rule book that back up your assertions? Also, if I understand you correctly, it is the responsibility of the "scorers table" to count fouls and determine "foul outs"?

Since Pollard and Miller were not notified of the disqualification, the result of Pollard's free throws shall stand.

(Rule 4-20.4 (definitions), 8-2.2.c (Rules), 2-9.4 (Scorekeeper's Role) and 4-53.1.e (more definitions)