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View Poll Results: will A.G. tenure be unsuccessful if none of his teams win an ncaa tournament game?
no 21 33.87%
yes 41 66.13%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 12-08-2023, 12:52 AM
forego1 forego1 is offline
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on AG hire

(feb18, 2018 forego1) "I think a view is made clearer if you see AG here a decade from now (or not). I project he will be here. The next part of this is: what are the desired achievements."

(A.G.) "Anyone you talk to in college basketball would say our program is a successful one, but the potential is here for so much more."

Without judgemment, and out of simple curiosity, I pose the following question:

Regardless of all else, will you view the A.G. tenure as unsuccessful were U.D. not to win one ncaa tournament game?

Plain: Yes or No (without explanation or context, please)
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Old 12-08-2023, 12:58 AM
forego1 forego1 is offline
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Actually, I have changed my position that the Flyers won't win an ncaa tournament game. I can conceive they could this year.

see, I'm not here to stick it to anyone

Last edited by forego1; 12-08-2023 at 01:52 AM..
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  #3  
Old 12-08-2023, 09:33 AM
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32 teams win 1 tournament game every year (assuming we are talking about making the 2nd round and not just winning a First Four game). I don't know how you can say you've had a successful tenure at a program with expectations like Dayton if you can't win one.

Now if he was cleaning up a mess like the post-JOB era maybe, but UD wasn't a full rebuild on life support. And maybe if we were winning the conference and making the tournament nearly every year. But just in general, probably not.

Last edited by flyerfanatic86; 12-08-2023 at 09:35 AM..
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:28 AM
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Success is measured multiple ways. I would reclassify this to "meeting expectations" versus success. He is successful or he wouldn't be where he is at. This program has not met expectations overall.
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:48 AM
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Context is important, but a larger picture and shift is being highlighted.
At a recent point, U.D. had an ncaa tournament win record that was exceeded by only two universities. Following the initial A.G. era claim that ncaa appearances would be regular, and with deep tournament runs, it is clear that this is unrealistic.

At the time of the job opening, would character and alumni status (plus some A-10 titles) be enough to retain?
How many THEN would reflect that a hire could be considered successful without ever winning an ncaa tournament game?

Let forego1 get out the scathing part, that does not reflect so much on A.G. as the apathetic fans that go from credible optimism of deep ncaa tournament runs to conceivable acquiescence to not winning an ncaa tournament game ever.
Originally, this hypothetical would have been viewed as utterly preposterous. OF COURSE Dayton will win AT LEAST ONE! (MANY!!)

If you cannot concede that the ncaaa tournament is the primary determinative standard in college basketball at our aspired level, then in my opinion you are lying or ignorant.

Is the frog in slowly heated water manifesting? I cannot fathom a premise at U.D. where success is without one moment of light, one happy dance. Argghhh!!!!!!!

I retract Yes or No (without explanation or context, please)
Please DO explain.
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:59 AM
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Try and remember what you felt when B.G.'s Flyers beat W. Virginia.

I don't know about you, but I was SKY HIGH -- in heaven !

JUST ONCE.. is that too much success ?
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  #7  
Old 12-08-2023, 12:05 PM
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The question is phrased like a ballot issue meant to perplex the electorate.
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Old 12-08-2023, 12:09 PM
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you are right, maddog07 - - sorry

Last edited by forego1; 12-08-2023 at 12:18 PM..
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  #9  
Old 12-08-2023, 12:53 PM
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A lot of people on this board simply do not care about winning. This was a bitter pill to swallow for me I'll be honest, but swallowed it I have.
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  #10  
Old 12-08-2023, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
A lot of people on this board simply do not care about winning. This was a bitter pill to swallow for me I'll be honest, but swallowed it I have.
I know. I am shocked by this poll's results. 7 years and 0 ncaat wins, and that is acceptable? Really? Come on people! This is what is wrong with the program: the low-expectation fans.

Who wouldn't want to be the UD hc? You get paid $2 million+, you have great resources, a top 25-top 30 fan base, and you don't have to produce at a higher level. Talk about a cushy job!

Last edited by ud2; 12-08-2023 at 01:06 PM..
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  #11  
Old 12-08-2023, 01:37 PM
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How is this not 100% yes!!!
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Old 12-08-2023, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkoooo View Post
A lot of people on this board simply do not care about winning. This was a bitter pill to swallow for me I'll be honest, but swallowed it I have.
Yep. A not insignificant amount of people here only care that heís a nice guy and an alumni. Very strange
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Old 12-08-2023, 04:04 PM
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We just had a shooting on the campus of UNLV, game was cancelled....
and someone decides this is a good time for a CAG poll... that is
even stranger
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Old 12-08-2023, 04:40 PM
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I voted yes, but I wonder how people would feel if we had gone to the Sweet Sixteen (at least) in 2020.
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Old 12-08-2023, 04:43 PM
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  #16  
Old 12-08-2023, 05:03 PM
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Were the Bengals considered a successful program through their 31-season playoff win drought? Not to me! They were painful with very little exception.

If you can't win any games, like literally not one, I cannot consider a coaching tenure anything above mediocre at best. The level of mediocrity can certainly be swayed by how frequently vs. infrequently our tourney births are.

Tenure with the program also comes into play. Not winning one NCAA game in a five-year stay looks significantly different than still not winning one after a decade or more, and it gets worse quickly after that because you've set a precedent of it being your culture as a coach. I'll also add that it reflects higher up the organization the longer it continues, too. AD, and beyond.

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Old 12-08-2023, 05:47 PM
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And this poll shows nearly 1/3rd of the voters think UD basketball is a charity.
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Old 12-08-2023, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by steverino015 View Post
We just had a shooting on the campus of UNLV, game was cancelled....
and someone decides this is a good time for a CAG poll... that is
even stranger
He could have asked how season tickets holders are going to be refunded their ticket from Wednesday but he didn't.

Would you have preferred that?
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Old 12-08-2023, 06:00 PM
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I can defend myself, shocka43 (still appreciate the sentiment)

steverino015, I have identified you as the poster boy for apathy, and long before this thread.
I like positive spin to forward a cause, but you have demonstrated no capacity for pause, for re-evaluation, for needed objectivity.
You are an open book for unfounded rah rah, sonny.
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Old 12-08-2023, 06:04 PM
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Look, I am a stickler for objective perception. What I am seeing a lot of on this site is an infatuation with A.G.
I don't mind the limerence there. It is the blind unquestioning fealty.

Hey, I am here now on this topic. I provoke, I instigate. I am a Dayton Flyer.
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Old 12-08-2023, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by shocka43 View Post
And this poll shows nearly 1/3rd of the voters think UD basketball is a charity.
No, what this shows is only 1% of the roughly 3,500 UD Pride members (many who post regularly, many who don’t) bothered to cast a vote in a meaningless, not even mid-season, endlessly regurgitated poll on a coach who is here THIS season no matter his results. You can’t extrapolate ANYTHING from this. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Talk about silly.

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Old 12-08-2023, 06:16 PM
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only that this discussion should have already been fan adjudicated.


AND, it WAS. Many peeps here accept mediocrity. I see that. I am standing against THAT. NOW,, not tomorrow, not when you tell me it is the right time
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Old 12-08-2023, 06:24 PM
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rollo, I am going to put on a show of force

It is not that I know your position one way or the other.

I want to acknowledge your input, your heart in the matter, regardless.

You are not complacent. You move.
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Old 12-08-2023, 06:40 PM
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Old 12-08-2023, 06:56 PM
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Thank you. I see something this year. There are things to like.

I am making a push for this to be the year.
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
I can defend myself, shocka43 (still appreciate the sentiment)

steverino015, I have identified you as the poster boy for apathy, and long before this thread.
I like positive spin to forward a cause, but you have demonstrated no capacity for pause, for re-evaluation, for needed objectivity.
You are an open book for unfounded rah rah, sonny.
I have been critical of CAG many times....
Your timing is horrible under these circumstances... by posting a poll now,
you are the one who is showing apathy.. wrong time, sonny...
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:16 PM
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My previous statement was based on future results not the current state of the program. The poll was badly worded. He gets credit for our assumed #1 seed during Covid. Of course it would be a failure if he never won a tournament game going forward. But if we continue to not make the tournament in the near future say the next 2 -3 years my opinion would change. I was a big fan of UD hiring AG but my fandom is waning a little.
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by steverino015 View Post
I have been critical of CAG many times....
Your timing is horrible under these circumstances... by posting a poll now,
you are the one who is showing apathy.. wrong time, sonny...

That is a red herring, because there is a related tragedy by the minute.
How did you vote? Why?
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:25 PM
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I also notice your protocol about sensitivity does not stop you from doing the right thing, and taking pause, dear.
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
That is a red herring, because there is a related tragedy by the minute.
How did you vote? Why?
I did not vote....
because with the killings on the campus, the most important thing by FAR,
is prayers for the victim's families and those affected by this... it is NOT a red
herring, I am serious - wrong time for this.. wrong time in my opinion.

A son of a friend of the family was shot at Va Tech, these shootings hit
hard for me... maybe next week I could come back and vote, right now
there is something more important to me. you can call it a red herring all
day long - I don't care..

just my .02c

So, I did not vote and the above is why..
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:36 PM
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https://www.alphahome.org/two-monks-...ust%20happened.
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
I also notice your protocol about sensitivity does not stop you from doing the right thing, and taking pause, dear.
and please stop with the insults and rudeness....
we can discuss with respect and kindness even if we
disagree.... which we may not disagree, I can come back
next week and consider....

but stop with the sonny, stop with the dear..... I will treat
you with the same courtesy you give me, okay with you?
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:44 PM
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you were one of those that stood in the way Of Marshall University picking themselves up, and allowing a football program to flourish in the face of a very misfortunate event.
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:46 PM
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I am not going to respect your position because you do not have the kind of depth to hold it authentically. Whatever names I call you are icing on my cake.
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
you were one of those that stood in the way Of Marshall University picking themselves up, and allowing a football program to flourish in the face of a very misfortunate event.
How did I stand in their way?
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
I am not going to respect your position because you do not have the kind of depth to hold it authentically. Whatever names I call you are icing on my cake.
Whatever name you call, reflects more on you than it ever does on the one
you are speaking of..... and you don't even know what I will vote...
you just want 100% agreement, and I am not voting, at least not now..

wrong time forego....... we seem to be going in a circle, so good night...
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Old 12-08-2023, 07:56 PM
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Excuses, procrastination, unresolved emotions. Stop effin' a round and
vote. Justify it.
You have no qualms about fret of your personal feelings. Be straightforward.
No one buys that crap you just posited.
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  #38  
Old 12-08-2023, 09:17 PM
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There are those who are adamant AG must win an NCAA Tournament game, and there are those who give him credit for a Final Four. The two sides will never see eye to eye.
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Old 12-08-2023, 10:07 PM
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Just a great thread. Feel smarter for having read through it. Always grateful to be able to read the musings of enlightened basketball minds. And free of charge no less

Honestly, feels like everything has been said here, and we can all move on
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Old 12-08-2023, 11:16 PM
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I voted yes. The question is a bit ambiguous because we donít know how long the tenure is. Since itís not stated we can use our own definition. I said letís say we lose in the first round of the NCAA tournament this year and then Grant retires. I would then call his career at UD a success: He got in one NCAA, had the greatest team in the 100 plus year history of the program another year. Has two guys he recruited starting in the NBA as we speak. Enough to say itís a success. Not perfect but a success.
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  #41  
Old 12-09-2023, 12:21 AM
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It's a silly survey because anyone who doesn't think we would have won at least one game in the NCAA Tournament in 2020 is not being realistic. Under that assumption the survey is meaningless. We had the best regular season in UD history. That has to count for something.
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  #42  
Old 12-09-2023, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
rollo, I am going to put on a show of force

It is not that I know your position one way or the other.

I want to acknowledge your input, your heart in the matter, regardless.

You are not complacent. You move.
Rollo has been excoriated many times on this board. He does not need to be pushed into responding to a subject such as this ..... But of course he did!
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Old 12-09-2023, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by forego1 View Post
I can defend myself, shocka43 (still appreciate the sentiment)

steverino015, I have identified you as the poster boy for apathy, and long before this thread.
I like positive spin to forward a cause, but you have demonstrated no capacity for pause, for re-evaluation, for needed objectivity.
You are an open book for unfounded rah rah, sonny.
Originally Posted by steverino015 View Post
I have been critical of CAG many times....
Your timing is horrible under these circumstances... by posting a poll now,
you are the one who is showing apathy.. wrong time, sonny...
Doesn't anyone use ACE anymore?
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Old 12-09-2023, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan View Post
It's a silly survey because anyone who doesn't think we would have won at least one game in the NCAA Tournament in 2020 is not being realistic. Under that assumption the survey is meaningless. We had the best regular season in UD history. That has to count for something.
that is why I voted yes.
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Old 12-09-2023, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Rollo has been excoriated many times on this board. He does not need to be pushed into responding to a subject such as this ..... But of course he did!
King Rollo doesnít vote. King Rollo decides. Votes are for mortals.
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Doesn't anyone use ACE anymore?
Just our resident super boomer.
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  #47  
Old 12-09-2023, 11:08 AM
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Here is a quick list of common complaints if results of a poll are not to your liking:

1. The question is worded incorrectly
2. It is not the right time for a poll like this
3. Polls are dumb
4. The person who posted the poll is dumb
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  #48  
Old 12-09-2023, 11:15 AM
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I had to look up what "ACE" was.
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Old 12-09-2023, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeCan View Post
Here is a quick list of common complaints if results of a poll are not to your liking:

1. The question is worded incorrectly
2. It is not the right time for a poll like this
3. Polls are dumb
4. The person who posted the poll is dumb
Then it devolves into two groups. One which thinks the goal of the program should be to get in the NCAA's. The other that likes a competitive team with a solid citizen at the helm, alumni swag, and a better parking pass.

Anyone notice how the forum's most current threads tend to have as many topics of past flyers players or events vs. current flyer players or events?
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Old 12-09-2023, 04:38 PM
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I now have a screenshot of the negative Nancys. Great poll!
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Old 12-09-2023, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Then it devolves into two groups. One which thinks the goal of the program should be to get in the NCAA's. The other that likes a competitive team with a solid citizen at the helm, alumni swag, and a better parking pass.

Anyone notice how the forum's most current threads tend to have as many topics of past flyers players or events vs. current flyer players or events?
There is a third group. Those who root for UD. They want to win, but are also realistic that UD is a mid major and every year has an uphill climb to make the NCAA. Especially, since the entry to the tournament is rigged by the big 5.
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  #52  
Old 12-09-2023, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
I now have a screenshot of the negative Nancys. Great poll!
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Why did you vote Yes? I thought you said that you wanted AG to be the hc for as long as he wanted?
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Old 12-09-2023, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by longtimefan67 View Post
I now have a screenshot of the negative Nancys. Great poll!
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Double secret probation?
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:49 PM
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Admittedly I misread the text. My no vote was in error.
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Old 12-09-2023, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYER5 View Post
Admittedly I misread the text. My no vote was in error.
Same here. I'm in the "no" list, errantly. My explanation above holds true to my beliefs.
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Old 12-10-2023, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
There is a third group. Those who root for UD. They want to win, but are also realistic that UD is a mid major and every year has an uphill climb to make the NCAA. Especially, since the entry to the tournament is rigged by the big 5.
Ok, but none of that stuff stopped Archie from succeeding. Grant's job was to continue the momentum and success that Archie left him with, and he hasn't fulfilled that objective 5 out of 6 seasons.

Grant just isn't doing a good enough job. We aren't paying him $2 million+ to miss the ncaat 5 out of 6 times. He has to do better.
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Old 12-10-2023, 09:00 AM
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LOL on Q. to chatGPT: (I'm old but not dead) Here it was:

If judging a college basketball coach from a major program what would the most noted and primary accomplishment determining that he was successful or less successful?

chatGPT Answer: Judging the success of a college basketball coach from a major program involves considering various factors, but one of the most noted and primary accomplishments is typically the team's performance in the NCAA Tournament. Coaches are often evaluated based on their ability to lead their teams to success in the postseason, as the NCAA Tournament is a pinnacle event in college basketball.

1) NCAA Tournament Success:

Advancing deep into the tournament, reaching the Final Four, and ultimately competing for or winning the national championship are strong indicators of a coach's success.
Yes, chatGPT listed some other factors, but graduation rate, being a great guy, being an alumni was not on the list.

I did not omit A.G.s premier season... I would certainly award him credit for a tournament win even without the fact, yet this is not how it works. As to expectations versus success, that's nonsense. Patrick Ewing was notably unsuccessful, and he won the Big East tournament. I mean, if you stood at an assembly and stated that Patrick Ewing was a successful basketball coach, but simply did not meet expectations, people would think you are stupid. The two are concepts are integral to each other.
As to making the point we are now a moderate or generally a mid-major program, I certainly won't disagree. And so goals can be adjusted accordingly. However, the Dayton program was not in such a state, when A.G. was hired... there were higher expectations, and "deep tournament runs" was specifically stated. Was that unrealistic? Now, the answer is rationally, yes. Now, it is a matter of how low the bar has gotten. I see it has gotten really, really, really LOW.
pmcmullen: "Tenure with the program also comes into play. Not winning one NCAA game in a five-year stay looks significantly different than still not winning one after a decade or more, and it gets worse quickly after that because you've set a precedent of it being your culture as a coach. I'll also add that it reflects higher up the organization the longer it continues, too. AD, and beyond."
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Old 12-10-2023, 09:19 AM
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The equation is remarkably simple as I discern:
U.D. omits that NCAA tournament record is a barometer od success, and concedes it is an unremarkable program regarding that metric.

Oh, but yes we ARE remarkable! We have the RESOURCES, the SUPPORT
(13,000 attendance!), the TRADITION, the INTANGIBLES.
But we have withdrawn from success being measured by the predominant metric.
We are going to stand on all the other remarkable THINGS, end of story.
A.G. can do well enough to sustain THINGS. I said that from the very beginning.
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Old 12-10-2023, 09:22 AM
forego1 forego1 is offline
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Still, this is the year. A.G. can get to the tournament and win.
That is why I am here posting. Do it
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  #60  
Old 12-10-2023, 10:38 AM
forego1 forego1 is offline
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Originally Posted by SeasonTicketFan View Post
...third group... They want to win, but are also realistic that UD is a mid major and...entry to the tournament is rigged by the big 5.
I can stipulate to being in this group, but it seems there are mid-major progams that consistently excel in their league. Look at the record.
Far from domination, not a single A-10 tournament trophy, and just one win in an NIT. I would not go there to "woe is us" unless referring to underperformance.
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  #61  
Old 12-10-2023, 10:45 AM
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"Will A.G. tenure be unsuccessful if none of his teams win an ncaa tournament game?"

The question does not state how long his tenure will be. I like AG. He was named as the coach of the year for what may have been the best UD team of all time. So I hope he stays for a long time.

But if he stays for a long time and does not end up with a single NCAA win, then it would be very hard for me to say his tenure was successful. So I voted yes.

Last edited by bigred; 12-10-2023 at 05:15 PM..
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Old 12-10-2023, 11:05 AM
forego1 forego1 is offline
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
"Will A.G. tenure be unsuccessful if none of his teams win an ncaa tournament game?"

...if he stays for a long time and does not end up with a single NCAA win, then it would be very hard for me to say his tenure was successful. So I voted no.
then your vote was supposed to be yes smh.

I can't even figure out now how it should have been worded, excepting to have true or false
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  #63  
Old 12-10-2023, 11:23 AM
forego1 forego1 is offline
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https://www.coachesdatabase.com/big-...ent-champions/

LOOK at that list of coaches. and there is Patrick Ewing

I do not think that the "anomoly" bears on A.G.'s phenomenal year, or career, but AM introducing that appraisal shouldn't be crazily over-weighted by a single success.
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Old 12-10-2023, 12:29 PM
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We have to decide if we want to be a high-major, big-time, Big East-quality/Big East-level program or not. If we do, then AG has to kick this thing into a higher gear and stop missing the ncaat.

I want AG to succeed too, but if he can't stop missing the ncaat, then all of the positive feelings that we have about him have to be put aside, and some hard choices have to be made. We can't allow our love for AG to supercede the goals of the program.

Too many posters on this board are not staying true to the goals of the program: making the ncaat. You have to be objective about this, love for the coach cannot supercede everything else.

I think the Georgetown fans all agonized over this same issue, they love Patrick Ewing, he is an absolute Georgetown legend.

Last edited by ud2; 12-10-2023 at 12:32 PM..
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  #65  
Old 12-10-2023, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by NJFlyr71 View Post
Rollo has been excoriated many times on this board. He does not need to be pushed
rollo does not get pushed, and what of his criticism? He has integrity.

Something, that after 7-8 decades of life, you lack NJFlyr71.
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  #66  
Old 12-10-2023, 05:56 PM
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I think we all would like to see Grant win and the team win (make the NCAA). That would be the goal, that makes everyone happy.

Apart from that, would you rather:

1. Have us make the NCAA on a regular basis without Grant
2. Have us keep Grant and continue to miss the NCAA

Doomsday would be not having Grant and also not making the NCAA, but if Grant is gone it is with the assumption that he was not getting it done anyway.

Just win baby.
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  #67  
Old 12-12-2023, 01:33 PM
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Speaking of gotcha polls, how about this one:

A) I like college basketball
B) I like to complain about things that are out of my control
or
C) Both the above

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