another domino falls... - Page 3

Viperstick · #**201** 09-20-2011, 01:02 AM

Somewhere in all this is a very good lesson in International Relations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism...lations_theory

rasta man · #**202** 09-20-2011, 08:33 AM

Dan Wetzel has a good point here regarding ND

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal..._to_acc_091911

With these conferences going to a 9 game league schedule (Big 10, Pac 12, Big 12) this going make ND's late season scheduling a nightmare since there will be few schools available in November to play ND. Yeah the Pac 12 made exceptions for ND-SC and ND-Stanford but they already forced the holy war to be moved to Sept and there is talk if OU moves to the Pac 12 and UT stays that game would move to September.

Wonder how NBC would feel about ND-Utah St games in November?

Medford · #**203** 09-20-2011, 08:51 AM

It would seem at this point that the 7 non football schools (plus perhaps ND) will get to retain the "Big East" title. That's a pretty valuable brand name and will help them make the transition from a mixed conference to a basketball league (plus volley ball, soccer, baseball, etc...) I can't imagine the conference being anything less than 12 teams. You have 5 in the east and 2-3 in the midwest. Adding 4-5 teams too get to 12, having a natural west - east split would make for the best league structure. Marquette, Depaul and possibly Notre Dame would have less travel head aches for their non revenue sports in a part of the country where there are many attractive options (Dayton, Xavier, Butler, St Louis, Creighton) with great fan support.

the only other thing I could see possibly happening, is that a football only conference is formed amongst whatever remains of the Big East and the B12 at the of the day, and they split apart for everything else. I don't think I'm going to far over the ledge to think that Georgetown, Villinova and Marquette would rather play Louisville & UC than UD & Xavier every season. However, such a split would only delay the obvious of the football only conference consolidating all those teams into a complete athletic conference.

hawkoooo · #**204** 09-20-2011, 09:58 AM

couldn't the big east rally? if they could at least get to 8 they would be okay for football right? maybe they lose their bcs status but i have a feeling that whole system is going to change because of this anyway (hopefully they'll scrap it).

Potential Leftovers: BE: cinci, louisville, usf, tcu, wvu B12: kansas, kstate, baylor, isu, mizzou

Potential additions in non-bcs leagues now: navy, ecu, houston, ucf, temple, memphis, army

I think the big east can survive. 3 or maybe 4 will be left out of the shuffle, add a few other leftovers and non-bcs hopefuls and you've got 9. back to 16 and the basketball league is still solid.

Medford · #**205** 09-20-2011, 11:05 AM

first, there is now way the SEC is going to stick at 13 members, as you have it listed it would appear you assume OU, OSU, Texas and TTech are going somewhere, as well as UConn and Rutgers. Seems reasonable, but drop either Missouri or WVU (or someone else off that list) as the SEC isn't going to sit at 13 teams; they'll take someone from either Missouri or WVU or take one from the ACC like FSU or VTech.

anyways, here's the problem. The league you mention above is crap for football. You say it likely losses its BCS status, but that is a huge financial boon for those schools. Most football programs lose money, drop the BCS benefits and you're almost sure to lose money. Adding any of the Navy, ECU, Houston, etc.. isn't going to help the football rep.

The TV contract would be crap in comparrison to what their peers would make. With the exception of kansas and Mizzouri, every single one of those programs you listed is 2nd (or 3rd or worse) fiddle for fans w/n their own state.

On top of that, would the B10 or SEC sit at 12 or 14 teams with the ACC & P12 sitting at 16? How loyal would Kansas be to that group as it pins for a spot in the B10 for its basketball program as well as a boost to its football program. UC falls well behind Ohio State, Louisville behind UK, USF behind Florida, Miami & Florida St, Iowa State behind Iowa, Memphis behind Tennessee and 'Bama across the River, Temple behind Penn State, etc... There's not a single matchup in there that screams "much watch fall TV" to the nation. That's part of the problem OU & Texas see w/ the current B12. W/o Nebraska, Colorado & aTm there is one huge matchup b/w OU & Texas, and nothing else that can be counted on for exposure across the nation. The SEC, B10 & P12 have marquee top 20 matchups most weekends of conference play. Despite the current state of affairs at Penn St & Michigan (and perhaps OSU this season) the B10 has 4 historically strong programs that it can count on. Sure there will be down periods like Michigan has seen recently, and PSU will see until JoePa retires, but the fan support is such that you know they'll be back to regular appearances in the top 20. Add in a rising program for the last 2 decades in Wisconsin and a handful of stable teams that semi-regularly pop up in the BCS chase like Michigan State, Illinois & Iowa and there's always a good game. The SEC is even stronger in this regard. That combined conference has nothing of national appeal.

How long will Seton Hall, Saint John's & Providence continue to allow their basketball programs to play 2nd fiddle to the hopes and desires of other teams football dreams? Both programs were at their strongest when the Big East was a basketballcentric conference. UConn was nothing special prior to their Calhoun building them into super powers in basketball. From something similar and you can rebuild the brand of the Big East w/ a renewed commitment to basketball by schools that don't play D1 football.

Whacker · #**206** 09-20-2011, 11:22 AM

What if Texas can't find a home for itself and it's ESPN deal? Is the PAC united in adding 4 teams just to get the Texas market? That seems like a hefty price to pay.

How rich would the irony be if Texas realizes their ESPN deal is an albatross and decides the BIG 12 is actually the best fit and decides to spread the wealth to maintain the Conference. Would aTm decide to stay with a reformed Texas?

If the BIG 12 somehow stays together then the BE football schools all jump anywhere they can land. That is the only scenario I can see where the BE basketball schools end up without their football affiliation. And even then, I wonder if they wouldn't just stand pat raking in the money from their current contract.

UACFlyer · #**207** 09-20-2011, 11:54 AM

The ACC is waiting to ensure that it is able to get the very best schools available...why not?

But, the OU president has stated with crystal clarity that OU and OSU go together or not at all; they're a package. So rule those two out for the ACC. Now here's a $64 question. Is there enough pressure from Texas lawmakers to ensure that UT goes no where without Texas Tech? The ACC would grab UT in a heartbeat...but I seriously doubt that they would if TT came with the deal.

Suppose I'm right.....no UT for the ACC. That leaves very few "ACC-worthy" schools available: Missouri, UConn and Rutgers....and of course Notre Dame, which any conference would want. I think any of the first three would jump at an ACC invite..although UM prefers the Big Ten.

Back to the OU presidents remarks. He made a very believable argument to the effect that OU and OSU strongly prefer to stay in the Big 12....but not so long as UT calls all the shots and rakes in a disproportionate share of the dough. He insists on all Big 12 members being treated equally..or else OU and OSU are history. Is it possible that at some point UT decides it doesn't like the way this is playing out...and realizes that no conference will want them on other than an equal-member basis? ...meaning that UT would have to back off the Longhorn Network? If so, UT might as well stay in the Big 12.

These Big 12 schools are really bitter and upset with UT....they really want to stay together,...but not on UT's terms. That is their bottom line.

Bat'71 · #**208** 09-20-2011, 12:35 PM

I know anything can happen, but as far as the oxymoronic Big XII is concerned (it's not BIG anymore and there sure aren't 12 schools left in the conference), there really are only three drivers left (as far as football is concerned) in that conference: Texas, Oklahoma and Okie State...maybe you can make the case for Mizzu, but nobody really cares about ISU, Baylor, the Kansas's (outside of Kansas) or TT. With the Longhorn Network in place, it's quite possible that Texas could go it alone in football (ala BYU) and join a conference like the Mountain West for all other sports (and the Mountain West may be persuaded to take TT along too.) Similarly, the addition of UConn and Rutgers seems like a no-brainer for the ACC (while it's possible for them to get ND, it's still more likely, IMHO, for ND to join an expanded Big Ten due to the rivalries they've built up over the years with the likes of UofM, MSU and Purdue and it's geographic fit.) I find it curious, however, that there hasn't been a peep out of the Big Ten, yet, unless a lot of furious negotiations are currently going on and another bombshell announcement will be forthcoming. Who knows, it's all conjecture at this point, but it's highly unlikely the wheels of change have stopped whirling around at this point.

UACFlyer · #**209** 09-20-2011, 01:03 PM

If you're the Big Ten maybe you're happy with 12 for quite a while...but you know that in a few years you plan to go to 14 or even 16.

Well, "in a few years" the teams you are likely to want are likely to have gone elsewhere and are unavailable, permanently. So, like it or not, you'd better act ASAP or you won't have another chance.

That being the case, it would not be surprising at all for the Big Ten to spring an ACC-like surprise, announcing that this or that school has "applied" and will join the Big Ten. Could be Rutgers which has been mentioned before and gets the BT to the east. UM is Big Ten-worthy; but I don't know if it adds much TV-wise.

For selective conferences like the ACC and Big Ten there just aren't that many acceptable options....waiting to see what develops is not without risk. The SEC is less fussy and the PAC 12 is so far away that it doesn't seem to enter into the discussions.

Bat'71 · #**210** 09-20-2011, 02:12 PM

Well, if CBS has it right, it looks like WVa may be one of the odd men out in this realignment situation. http://www.cbssports.com/#!/mcc/blog...32522/32130111

Bat'71 · #**211** 09-20-2011, 02:38 PM

Another post on the CBSSports site seems to indicate quite clearly that Calhoun, Auriemma and Pasqulini would be more than amenable to leaving the BE for the ACC. http://www.cbssports.com/#!/collegeb...top-conference

Class of 73 Alum · #**212** 09-20-2011, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Bat'71

Well, if CBS has it right, it looks like WVa may be one of the odd men out in this realignment situation. http://www.cbssports.com/#!/mcc/blog...32522/32130111

Well that could definitely be the first step in the Big East remaining a viable Football conference...

UACFlyer · #**213** 09-20-2011, 02:56 PM

That would mean the following: 1) The Big Ten loses a viable candidate. 2) The ACC can breathe a sigh of relief that the SEC did not target an ACC school as had been rumored. 3) The ACC is secure (for now) still in the cat-bird seat. Of course, it's still possible that the Big Ten could surprise and target an ACC school (I'd love to see the ACC start squirming.)

Meanwhile, UT's decision is crucial. OU and OSU may wind up in the PAC 12. Much less certain what UT will do. Whether they sit still, head west or head east to the ACC is really important.

Suppose UT heads west. That would be very good for UConn, Rutgers or both, as they become the best candidates for ACC membership.

ND has been mentioned as a good fit for the ACC....and it is, institutionally. But the reason ND wants to be independent is so that it can play its national, flexible schedule as the national Catholic U. Money ain't the issue. As an ACC member ND loses that flexibilty completely. But as a Big Ten member much scheduling flexibility is retained because three of ND's "always" games are in the Big Ten, i.e., PU, UM and MSU. Joining the Big Ten would still allow ND to play three or four OOC games each year. Maybe not USC, Navy and Stanford every year...but every other year, for sure. So, if schedule flexibilty at the national level is really a gut issue for ND...the Big Ten is the only option consistent with that objective.

An ACC with UConn and Rutgers would lock up the East coast from top to bottom, with UConn the more desirable of the two given its broad athletics success, academic prowess and a proximity to the NYC market almost as good as Rutgers.

Medford · #**214** 09-20-2011, 03:35 PM

One possibility, on the WVU rumors (though I doubt WVU is top choice for the SEC's 14th team) is that they may not be in a position to allow a 14th team unless its a slam dunk until aTm is officially a member. Until that situation is nailed down, which is only a matter of time I would think, there is no need to add WVU to the mix.

Class of 73 Alum · #**215** 09-20-2011, 04:18 PM

I wonder if Penn State is even remotley considering a switch to the ACC. They really don't fit in the Big 10 in a lot of ways. Closest away game is about 350-400 miles. They could renew rivalries with Pitt, Syracuse, BC. Maryland is close too. Those are most of the schools that Paterno wanted in an Eastern League a long time ago.

longtimefan · #**216** 09-20-2011, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by flyers/avs

The loss of X to an A10 that Dayton remained in wouldn't just hurt, it would be the equivalent of a nuclear bomb going off on Stewart Street. UD would be in a conference without its longtime natural rival playing a pack of irrelevant teams (minus Temple also) that collectively wouldn't garner a yawn from national college basketball fans. Such a league wouldn't even touch the Mountain West in terms of prestige. The A10 barely generates much of a blip as it stands - take out X and it's little more than the Horizon League (without Butler).

Originally Posted by sheg

While most of us would prefer the Big East, there's always the MVC. In fact, the current MVC plus Xavier, Dayton, SLU, and a fourth would be formidable.

If Xavier left the A-10 for the Big East and left UD behind, I would think the MVC would take St Louis and Dayton in a minute to get to 12. It might be better to play teams like Creighton, Bradley, Southern Illinois, Wichita State, and Northern Iowa than what would be left of the A-10 without X.

CE80 · #**217** 09-20-2011, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

If Xavier left the A-10 for the Big East and left UD behind, I would think the MVC would take St Louis and Dayton in a minute to get to 12. It might be better to play teams like Creighton, Bradley, Southern Illinois, Wichita State, and Northern Iowa than what would be left of the A-10 without X.

They may be good bball schools but I don't think they are in there geographic areas UD is looking to get students.

Flyer'95 · #**218** 09-20-2011, 05:37 PM

I also wonder if the MVC would rather have butler than us. Not sure. I just don't want to be the last team without a chair to sit on when the music stops. Man, this sh!t is crazy.

anthonycharles · #**219** 09-20-2011, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Class of 73 Alum

I wonder if Penn State is even remotley considering a switch to the ACC. They really don't fit in the Big 10 in a lot of ways. Closest away game is about 350-400 miles. They could renew rivalries with Pitt, Syracuse, BC. Maryland is close too. Those are most of the schools that Paterno wanted in an Eastern League a long time ago.

Penn State is making a lot of money in the Big 10. I doubt they're considering it.

ud69 · #**220** 09-20-2011, 08:40 PM

I continue to be amazed by the dis-function of the Big East. Reportedly, yesterday the Big East basketball only schools held their own conference call. Tonight, the Big East FBS football schools are supposedly meeting in NYC. Villanova even asked to be a part of tonight's meeting and was denied.

How can you run a conference where the members don't even talk to each other? No wonder the Big East commissioner found out about Syracuse and Pitt heading to the ACC from the media.

From my perspective, the BE basketball schools are just hookers to the BE football pimps. The football money is more important that any of their values. Until that changes, the BE will continue to implode.

UACFlyer · #**221** 09-20-2011, 10:11 PM

....very recent reports make clear that both Texas and Oklahoma prefer to stay in the Big 12 and stabilize the conference. OU has presented conditions that if accepted by Texas would save the Big 12...at least for now. UT would have to make concessions re the Longhorn netwwork and its treatment and dealings with the rest of the conference. OU is also pushing for a new commissioner.

It appears that the power schools of the Big 12, UT and OU, really care about their past history together, the rivalries, etc. If this works out the formation of 16 team power conference may be pushed into the future yet again. And, the severely weakened Big East will know that it has to add FB teams other than Big 12 remnants in order to stay alive.

It's possible. Programs like Central Florida are coming on strong....perhaps a Texas school like Houston to balance TCU....even Temple is being mentioned. Temple FB is infinitely better than it has been in the past, clear to anyone watching the TU-Penn State game Saturday. The Big East will have a helping of crow if it invites Temple back into the conference. Could happen.

(Back to the OU-UT connection. Some years ago I happened to be on the OU campus in Norman the entire week prior to the OU-UT football game. I cannot describe the atmosphere. The game was played in Austin, so the OU fans and students had to travel. There were signs all over the campus...and I mean everywhere,...warning students of the dangers of selling more than one pint of blood ($25 at the time) in order to raise money for travel. And we think Flyer fans are fanatic! Whatever,....the OU-UT rivalry is out of the ordinary...and, apparently, not many relish the thought of the two schools headed their separate ways. Their Big 12 roots run deep.)

rasta man · #**222** 09-21-2011, 12:31 AM

PAC 12 decides to stay at 12

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...expand-further

think this may put the brakes on all of this unless the ACC goes for UT and OU which I dont see happening. Big East maybe grabs Cent Fla to replace Pitt and SU (with TCU still coming in) and all is the same

btw UAC, UT-OU is NEVER played in Norman or Austin its always at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas so its a (relatively equal drive for both schools)

Chris R · #**223** 09-21-2011, 01:02 AM

Big East now talking about replacing Syracuse and Pitt with Navy and Air Force, according to one headline I read.

If you are a Georgetown or Nova, you gotta love that thought. Even swap on the hardwood.

UACFlyer · #**224** 09-21-2011, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by rasta man

PAC 12 decides to stay at 12

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...expand-further

think this may put the brakes on all of this unless the ACC goes for UT and OU which I dont see happening. Big East maybe grabs Cent Fla to replace Pitt and SU (with TCU still coming in) and all is the same

btw UAC, UT-OU is NEVER played in Norman or Austin its always at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas so its a (relatively equal drive for both schools)

Originally Posted by Chris R

Big East now talking about replacing Syracuse and Pitt with Navy and Air Force, according to one headline I read.

If you are a Georgetown or Nova, you gotta love that thought. Even swap on the hardwood.

My mistake rasta.....when on campus at Norman I just knew the game wasn't going to be there,

Chris, as for Navy or any of the service academies to te big East...that has got to be a one in a million shot, especially AF. Navy and Army are naturals. But since Navy has been rebuffing a much stronger and more desirable BE for years...why in the world would they join now?

Fan4allUDSports · #**225** 09-21-2011, 08:15 AM

I'm not so sure I still by this. Remember the ACC has 14 in the coming months and the Big 12 is down to 9 teams. I think that there is still some possibility that OU and UT bolt. The mega conferences will come, and the SEC is close to 14(perhaps Central Fl?) and noone is going to be left behind. That includes the afore mentioned schools and perhaps now they move to the Big 10 instead.

Bat'71 · #**226** 09-21-2011, 08:21 AM

It's possible the Big XII ( I have to chuckle at the name anymore) could reconstitute itself and hang together, perhaps by adding Houston, Tulsa, SMU and/or Rice, but it'll lose some of its panache going forward. However, if Mizzu has been offered a seat at the SEC table (and it accepts...why wouldn't it?), then the music starts all over again in the heartland. If the Service Academies are the best the BE can do to shore-up their FB league, the dreams of a lucrative TV contract may be just that...a "Dream". The BE football membership may have kept 'Nova out of their meeting in order to give full consideration to asking Temple to join, as UAC alluded to earlier; let's face it Temple makes a heck of a lot more sense than Army or Air Force for BE football (AF would be a better fit in the "Big XII.) Anyway, still a lot of moving parts here, so it will be interesting to see how it all pans out in the end. By the way, where IS the Big Ten in all of this?

Medford · #**227** 09-21-2011, 08:34 AM

Another possibility, Uconn & Rutgers still go to the ACC, taking them to 16, Missouri goes to the SEC, taking them to 14, and the B12 to 8. The B12 decides to expand back to 12, with by taking on TCU, Louisville, UC & WVU. Which would take the Big East down to 1 football school.

Far fetched? I don't know, it may not be if the ACC takes 2 more from the Big East, as rumored. Perhaps the ACC puts on the breaks and stays at 14 for the moment? At any rate, the Big East is now at 7 football schools, including TCU. There is nobody sitting out there that's a game changer in football, only Memphis in basketball. They need 8 schools at a mimimum to retain BCS status. How long do the basketball schools put up with this? Lossing Syracuse & pitt is a huge blow to the basketball side of things; they basketball schools now have a majority of the teams in conference, do they start taking control of the conference again, rather than letting their fates rest in the hands w/ vastly different athletic goals?

DallasFlyer · #**228** 09-21-2011, 09:59 AM

If TCU believes the Big East is no more stable than the Big 12, and the Big 12 offers, I have to think TCU would try to get out of their Big East agreement. Why travel across the country, when you can play in a better football league close to home?

UACFlyer · #**229** 09-21-2011, 10:04 AM

....but, OU has made very specific demands of Texas as a condition for staying and holding the Big 12 together. There is no guarantee that UT will accept OU's ultimatum.

If UT folds some have specculated that even A&M might return.

UACFlyer · #**230** 09-21-2011, 12:42 PM

...by the PAC 12.

The Daily Oklahoman reports that PAC 12 commish assured the OU president that both OU and OSU would be invited to join the PAC 12 if they applied. OU has been acting accordingly.

But the presidents run the PAC 12 not the commissioner. And they said withdraw the invitation...we're fine as is. Also, it's entirely possible that school presidents aren't comfortable destroying a conference...except for ACC presidents.

In any case, both PAC 12 commish, Larry Scott, and the OU president look a bit foolish. And OU's "demands" on UT now look weak. We'll see what kind of guys run UT soon. If they accommodate OU and other Big 12 members, allowing them to save face, that would be a conciliatory gesture. If UT plays hardball that will tell everyone how little they care about their conference brethern.

Won't take long to know.

Chris R · #**231** 09-21-2011, 09:16 PM

I dont understand why the Big XII thinks they have salvaged anything. They have lost Colorado, Nebraska, and Texas A&M. Just as importantly, if not more so, is they lost their Big XII Championship game. This was the money maker and feather in the BCS conference cap, started by the SEC as a standard for gauging league strength.

The Big XII no longer has that. You need 12 schools to realistically stage a title game pitting winners of two divisions. So if the Big XII ever wanted another championship game thats become a conference tradition, they need to raid conferences for more members.

Similarly, the Big East is currently at 6 football schools: WVU, UConn, South Florida, Cincinnati, Louisville, Rutgers. Its by far the weakest football conference and a strong case can be made that it no longer deserves a BCS bid, instead going to the WAC or Mountain West.

The Big East must had 4-6 footbal schools to hold on control of that bid. The conference never had a championship game and they always had fewer members than the Pac10 or Big10. They were always short on numbers.

Adding Navy and Air Force is a very desperate move. One they are probably embarrass to even consider. Granted, both teams are better in football than Syracuse, and not far behind Pitt. But its the entire athletic footprint.

Someone try and convince me that Villanova, ND, St. Johns, and Georgetown want to play Navy and Air Force in basketball (or any sport for that matter). The basketball schools are the real losers, trading national title contenders for one school out of the Patriot league and one in the Mountain time zone.

These measures are not long-term solutions. They are like putting bubble gum on a crack in the dam.

bobber · #**232** 09-21-2011, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Chris R

I dont understand why the Big XII thinks they have salvaged anything. They have lost Colorado, Nebraska, and Texas A&M. Just as importantly, if not more so, is they lost their Big XII Championship game. This was the money maker and feather in the BCS conference cap, started by the SEC as a standard for gauging league strength.

The Big XII no longer has that. You need 12 schools to realistically stage a title game pitting winners of two divisions. So if the Big XII ever wanted another championship game thats become a conference tradition, they need to raid conferences for more members.

Similarly, the Big East is currently at 6 football schools: WVU, UConn, South Florida, Cincinnati, Louisville, Rutgers. Its by far the weakest football conference and a strong case can be made that it no longer deserves a BCS bid, instead going to the WAC or Mountain West.

The Big East must had 4-6 footbal schools to hold on control of that bid. The conference never had a championship game and they always had fewer members than the Pac10 or Big10. They were always short on numbers.

Adding Navy and Air Force is a very desperate move. One they are probably embarrass to even consider. Granted, both teams are better in football than Syracuse, and not far behind Pitt. But its the entire athletic footprint.

Someone try and convince me that Villanova, ND, St. Johns, and Georgetown want to play Navy and Air Force in basketball (or any sport for that matter). The basketball schools are the real losers, trading national title contenders for one school out of the Patriot league and one in the Mountain time zone.

These measures are not long-term solutions. They are like putting bubble gum on a crack in the dam.

Agree, Chris. The Big East will limp along in football, but will it keep its BCS status? Likely not. And I was under the impression the service academies (if they do come on board) are only in the BE for football. Was I misinformed? And if they are in for all sports, would that be to Notre Dame's liking? I really doubt Navy and Army have olympic teams of much strength.

Glen Clark · #**233** 09-21-2011, 11:34 PM

You're telling me 'putting bubble gum on a crack in the dam' doesn't work?
That's just crazy talk!

__________________
The Man's Prayer:
I'm a man
I can change
If I have to
I guess . . .

frisco flyer · #**234** 09-22-2011, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Chris R

I dont understand why the Big XII thinks they have salvaged anything. They have lost Colorado, Nebraska, and Texas A&M. Just as importantly, if not more so, is they lost their Big XII Championship game. This was the money maker and feather in the BCS conference cap, started by the SEC as a standard for gauging league strength.

The Big XII no longer has that. You need 12 schools to realistically stage a title game pitting winners of two divisions. So if the Big XII ever wanted another championship game thats become a conference tradition, they need to raid conferences for more members.

Similarly, the Big East is currently at 6 football schools: WVU, UConn, South Florida, Cincinnati, Louisville, Rutgers. Its by far the weakest football conference and a strong case can be made that it no longer deserves a BCS bid, instead going to the WAC or Mountain West.

The Big East must had 4-6 footbal schools to hold on control of that bid. The conference never had a championship game and they always had fewer members than the Pac10 or Big10. They were always short on numbers.

Adding Navy and Air Force is a very desperate move. One they are probably embarrass to even consider. Granted, both teams are better in football than Syracuse, and not far behind Pitt. But its the entire athletic footprint.

Someone try and convince me that Villanova, ND, St. Johns, and Georgetown want to play Navy and Air Force in basketball (or any sport for that matter). The basketball schools are the real losers, trading national title contenders for one school out of the Patriot league and one in the Mountain time zone.

These measures are not long-term solutions. They are like putting bubble gum on a crack in the dam.

I think the plan du jour is to have Navy and Air Force play football only in the Big East, and yes, it does sound like a desperate measure. the most realistic chance to salvage BCS status is for the B12 and BE to merge after the Big10, PAC12, SEC and ACC are done cherry-picking.

Viperstick · #**235** 09-22-2011, 01:35 AM

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...nce-membership

Regardless of what sport I play, this would not inspire me with confidence in the league if it went through.

xubrew · #**236** 09-22-2011, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Viperstick

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...nce-membership

Regardless of what sport I play, this would not inspire me with confidence in the league if it went through.

East Carolina may not have the brand name, but I believe when it comes to football they routinely field better teams and put more fans in their stadium than both Pitt and Syracuse. ESPECIALLY Syracuse

On the field, TCU and ECU are better than Syracuse and Pitt. I know that unfortunate thing about football is that perception is oftentimes more important than actual results, but simply speaking from how good the league will be between they lines, I think they've actually upgraded...if this goes through, of course.

Chris R · #**237** 09-22-2011, 02:12 AM

Is ECU for football only or full membership?

Lets see, Notre Dame gets hammered for years for being in the Big East in everything BUT football -- even by Big East followers -- then the BE has to sink SO low that they have to throw the same offer to the service academies? Are we full circle?

I agree with Brew. The service academies are not bad in football. Same with ECU. But their inclusion in the Big East is a temporary desperation fix. They dont carry any fan base and if they are in full membership, offer almost zero in the other sports. Syracuse and Pitt cover all the bases, even if their football isnt exactly SEC caliber.

You dont ask service academies or ECU to join your league in football unless you are going APE-S**T and fearing a cataclysm. Youll take anybody. Its come to that. Even a bad Pitt and Cuse team will always draw better in the stands and on TV.

ECU basketball could be the winner? Louisville, Marquette, ND, Nova, St. Johns!

Must be nice. Meanwhile we keeping playing LaSalle and Fordham.

xubrew · #**238** 09-22-2011, 02:22 AM

I thought ECU wanted full membership, but I'm not sure. It would take C-USA about five minutes to replace them (La Tech, Middle Tennessee, Troy and WKU would be banging down the door). ECU is a huge asset in football, but not much else. They're trending up in basketball....but VERY slowly. I don't think the conference would support the idea of them leaving in football, but staying in everything else.

ud2 · #**239** 09-22-2011, 06:15 AM

The expansion options in football for the Big East and the Big 12 IMO are not good. The Big East could look at adding Central Florida, Temple, Army, Navy, etc., and none of those schools are that great in football. Navy has been pretty good though, but only just recently has Navy been pretty good.

The Big 12's options seem to be better, they could add Boise State and BYU. SMU, Tulsa, Rice, Houston, etc. are all less desirable options, SMU might be decent. I think the Big 12 should really look at adding Boise and BYU in order to try and stablize their league. Boise and BYU have been trying to break into the BCS for a while now. The Big 12 should try to take TCU away from the Big East.

There are 5 non-BCS football conferences: Conference USA, Mid-American Conference, Mountain West Conference, Sunbelt Conference, and Western Athletic Conference. Plus, there are four independents: Army, BYU, Navy, and Notre Dame. None of those teams other than Boise, BYU, Navy, Notre Dame, and maybe SMU are any good in football. And Notre Dame is not going to join the Big East or Big 12.

So, I don't know what the Big East is going to be able to do in order to try and strengthen itself through expansion. Navy is about the only decent football expansion target for the Big East. I can't see Boise and BYU joining the Big East, the travel distances are just too great. And I think the Big 12 has the same problem, but I do think the Big 12 might have better options with Boise, BYU, and maybe SMU.

List of D1 football teams by conference:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/teams

UACFlyer · #**240** 09-22-2011, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Chris R

Is ECU for football only or full membership?

Lets see, Notre Dame gets hammered for years for being in the Big East in everything BUT football -- even by Big East followers -- then the BE has to sink SO low that they have to throw the same offer to the service academies? Are we full circle?

I agree with Brew. The service academies are not bad in football. Same with ECU. But their inclusion in the Big East is a temporary desperation fix. They dont carry any fan base and if they are in full membership, offer almost zero in the other sports. Syracuse and Pitt cover all the bases, even if their football isnt exactly SEC caliber.

You dont ask service academies or ECU to join your league in football unless you are going APE-S**T and fearing a cataclysm. Youll take anybody. Its come to that. Even a bad Pitt and Cuse team will always draw better in the stands and on TV.

ECU basketball could be the winner? Louisville, Marquette, ND, Nova, St. Johns!

Must be nice. Meanwhile we keeping playing LaSalle and Fordham.

Chris, the Big East has been after the service academies for years,..Army and Navy....and of course, for football only. No fan base? Army and Navy have 300 million fans.....I have been to a few Army and Navy games at UConn. They sell out and the games possess a truly special atmosphere. Fans consider it a privilege to have Army or Navy come to town...the venue is swarming with Midshipmen and Cadets,...it's a real treat, special.

Schools like ECU would be full membership schools. But I don't think ECU is high on the list. What may be attractive is to add travel partners for USF and TCU, e.g., UCF and Houston...possibly others.

True, the Big 12 has survived and is likely to emerge stronger after the PAC 12 rebuff. The Big East took an unexpected blow and will be weaker for a while. Brew made a good point though....weaker in perception; but quite possibly stronger on the field.

hawkoooo · #**241** 09-22-2011, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Chris R

They dont carry any fan base

ECU? Sorry Chris, but that is simply incorrect.

As far as Navy goes, weren't they solicited by the BE in the past and were not interested? Navy makes the most sense but I think Houston would be my top choice at this point in order to add a travel partner for TCU and solidify their "commitment" to the BE.

Heard on SC this morning that Temple has told the BE of it's interest. Not sure if they will get the invite, but Temple is out of the A10 as far as I see it. Either the BE bites or they replace the C-USA teams that bolt. What will the A10 do to solidify or possibly even upgrade?

Potential Departures: Massachusetts, Temple

Firm Fixtures: Charlotte, Dayton, Duquesne, George Washington, Rhode Island, Richmond, Saint Joseph's, Saint Louis, Xavier

Expendable: Fordham, La Salle, Saint Bonaventure

Potential Additions: Bradley, Butler, Creighton, George Mason, Siena, Virginia Commonwealth, Wichita State

I would really hope Fordham is finally dropped. I also think GW/URI could be expendable if someone we really wanted was open. Would Richmond ever leave in order to increase its chances at big-time football down the road?

UACFlyer · #**242** 09-22-2011, 08:31 AM

...at 14 schools hawk. Temple and UMass are FBS FB schools that "may" soon be all-sports elsewhere. But not very soon as far as UMass is concerned. Temple may ge back in the BE....they now play good FB. But, I think the B would be embarrassed to have TU back....and the BE is probably unsure of TU's staying power in FB. Now they're good,...tomorrow? But TU is a very good institutional and geographic fit...very good.

The A10 will not drop FU.....it wants to be in NYC. And if the A10 didn't boot the Bonnies out years ago during the scandal, they won't now. Conferences are very reluctant to kick out a member. Look for the A10 to stay the same, losing TU and UM eventually.

But should a really good program apply for A10 membership (unlikely), the A10 would go for it...I think.

Bat'71 · #**243** 09-22-2011, 09:18 AM

BE football didn't draw much fan interest before the departure of Pitt and Syracuse, so (barring a merger with the Big XII schools) why does anyone think BE FB will draw much interest now, regardless of who they add. To paraphrase a line from the '60s protest movement, "what if they gave a game and nobody came?" Talk about delusional, "dreams" of a mega-TV deal with ESPN or anybody else is highly unlikely now...outside of Louisville, WVa and UConn (and as we've seen Husky fans don't travel well) nobody really cares. As far as Cinci is concerned, they'll never get out of OSU's shadow and despite a huge investment in new facilities, Rutgers still has trouble recruiting in it's own back yard and, in most years, it can't draw flies. Now if RU were to join the ACC or Big Ten, things could dramatically change for them, but if they stay in the BE, they'll continue to have an uphill battle attracting much local interest, IMO. At this point, I have to believe the BE is in absolute fear of losing it's BCS status, and rightfully so. If that is indeed the case, it's only a matter of time before it implodes as members continue to seek a better, higher profile FB conference (and the bucks that go with it.)

Bat'71 · #**244** 09-22-2011, 09:57 AM

UAC, you may have a point about TU's resurgence in FB being a "flash in the pan", so to speak, but that could be applied to TCU as well. With their contract to play home games at the new Eagles stadium, it could help them draw more talent to their program and lift TU's profile among recruits. Now, obviously 'Nova will balk at having TU join the BE, if even in FB, but TU may hold out for full membership. If that happens and the FB schools want Temple, expect a raucous BE meeting. Jim Boeheim, on ESPNs PTI show recently, laid a lot of the blame on the defections of 'Cuse and Pitt to failure of the Conference to secure a contract with ESPN caused by the meddling of BE non-FB members.

As far as Fordham and the Bonnies are concerned, I wouldn't sleep well at night if I were the AD at either school. The A-10 has a new commissioner since the Bonnies had their "difficulties" and I think that episode still leaves a bad taste in the collective mouths of the Conference. The Bonnies are an outlier, as far as location is concerned (Olean, NY...what's their TV market like?) and their program (despite a bit of a resurgence recently) is unlikely to ever generate much of a following. Fordham may be in NYC, but they're in a small gym and they have trouble getting any ink in the NY press (the last decent article on FU in the NY Post mocked them as being a D-I BB program with DII facilities.) My recollection is that the A-10 ordered FU to arrange for a larger facility to play some of their A-10 home games; with MSG contracted out to St. John's, FU settled on the old Continental Arena in the Meadowlands where attendance dropped off from the paltry numbers they had at Rose Hill. So, not a good situation there. If the A-10 wanted a NY presence, they'd be better off with Hofstra..at least they get good coverage on Long Island. When you add all that together ,plus the fact that neither school has done much for the collective RPI of the Conference (yet still get a share of Tournament revenues), they look quite expendable. I guess you could say the same thing for LaSalle (do we really need three member schools in Philly?)

Chris R · #**245** 09-22-2011, 10:22 AM

Sorry folks but the academies and ECU offer zilch for a football audience when it comes to TV and that's all that matters. Nobody in Denver or Houston is going to watch three and a half hours of Cincinnati vs Navy or ECU vs Air Force. They have some local draw but that's it and it's nothing like a school with name brand recognition like Suracuse and Pitt - much of that bolstered by basketball.

Perhaps it's nostalgic to say the academies have 300M fans, but that's not what the ticket sales and TV say. Most people couldn't care less about watching academy football. Not an indictment on respecting what they do or supporting the military but average Joe Fan would rather watch a Miss State vs Arkansas game. The only time the academies are ever on national TV in a meaningful way is Army/Navy on thanksgiving. In fact, most service people and vets don't even watch the academies. They watch their hometown or home state team.

I think we are kidding ourselves about the draw of academy football to the Big East. Same with ECU. It's like Houston. I bet more people in Houston follow Texas, A&M, LSU, and Oklahoma than they do Houston.

The Big East dredging this far down the totem pole in football is proof they are at Defcon-1. Aren't I clever this morning!

Posted via Mobile Device

Sea Bass · #**246** 09-22-2011, 10:46 AM

IIRC, the BE needs to have at least an 8 team league.

UACFlyer · #**247** 09-22-2011, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Chris R

Sorry folks but the academies and ECU offer zilch for a football audience when it comes to TV and that's all that matters. Nobody in Denver or Houston is going to watch three and a half hours of Cincinnati vs Navy or ECU vs Air Force. They have some local draw but that's it and it's nothing like a school with name brand recognition like Suracuse and Pitt - much of that bolstered by basketball.

Perhaps it's nostalgic to say the academies have 300M fans, but that's not what the ticket sales and TV say. Most people couldn't care less about watching academy football. Not an indictment on respecting what they do or supporting the military but average Joe Fan would rather watch a Miss State vs Arkansas game. The only time the academies are ever on national TV in a meaningful way is Army/Navy on thanksgiving. In fact, most service people and vets don't even watch the academies. They watch their hometown or home state team.

I think we are kidding ourselves about the draw of academy football to the Big East. Same with ECU. It's like Houston. I bet more people in Houston follow Texas, A&M, LSU, and Oklahoma than they do Houston.

The Big East dredging this far down the totem pole in football is proof they are at Defcon-1. Aren't I clever this morning!
Posted via Mobile Device

...Big East football is in real trouble.

Sea Bass · #**248** 09-22-2011, 12:55 PM

BE is left with only bad options to solve the football problem. If they lose their BCS invite then the reason for the marriage of football and basketball only schools vanishes and at that point the conference likely will split. A group may keep the Big East brand name but the conference as a hybrid will be finished.

bobber · #**249** 09-22-2011, 02:11 PM

Several disconnected thoughts:

The whole survival of BE football rests on the ACC and what it does with UConn and Rutgers. If the ACC accepts them -- lights out for BE football. I don't care who you bring in, it'll be over. And even if the ACC decides not to act now, how stable would the BE be when two of its more prominent members ardently want out? Not good, not good at all.

Then there's the Big 12, and the question of whether they will add schools. They could cherry pick Louisville, or even Cincy from the BE. They might not do this immediately, but since they seem to be emerging as a much stronger entity than the BE, they have the option to do it if they want. Again, a very bad situation for BE football.

Then there is the SEC. Will it stay at 13 teams? It could, I suppose, but I wouldn't bet on it. And whoever the SEC takes as its 14th team to balance out aTm will eventually strike at the BE. In fact, if the SEC takes West Virginia (and WV certainly seems to be campaigning for SEC membership) it will strip the BE of its flag ship program.

Not good for the BE in football. Not good at all.

Fan4allUDSports · #**250** 09-22-2011, 02:20 PM

Bobber, I think you put it right on the head, which is why I don't think we have seen the last of the movement.

1. Right now the ACC is at 14(or will be) with the potential to go up to 16(lets say UConn and Rutgers)

2. The SEC is at 13 and more than likely needs 14 to balance the schedule. So they pick any of either WVU, Mizzou, Cincy, or U of L. I know there is debate as to geography and academics, but money trumps all of that. If the SEC picks up 1, why would it not try to pick 3 of the 4 to balance the ACC and hence it is at 16.

3. The B10, B12, and Pac 12 need to react and that is where Kansas, K-State, OK-State, OU, UT, and TT come in. The combination is what will make for an interesting showdown, but unless the Big 12 merges with the Big East for football(who knows what happens with the other sports), this still stays murky until 16 is seen by the Big 4 BCS schools. Though wouldn't it be interesting to see someone go to 20 teams? What would that do for the landscape?

bobber · #**251** 09-22-2011, 02:32 PM

The NY Times does not share our views.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/sp...r=1&ref=sports

Viperstick · #**252** 09-22-2011, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by bobber

The NY Times does not share our views.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/sp...r=1&ref=sports

Playing devil's advocate...

1) If the Big East is challenged on their BCS status in 2013, what incentive do the basketball schools have to stay?
2) If Villanova is over ruled on Temple by the football schools, does Villanova lead a revolt and break away?

ud2 · #**253** 09-22-2011, 11:24 PM

If the Big East is willing to go as far west as Colorado(Air Force)to expand, then the Big East might as well go a little further and target Boise and BYU too. At this point, is there really that much difference between traveling to Colorado or Utah(BYU)or Idaho(Boise)? You are already hundreds of miles away from home, what's a few more hundred miles? Besides, you're going to fly there anyway, so it would only take a little bit more time to get to Utah and Idaho. Maybe the Big East could just add Boise, BYU, and maybe SMU in football only. The Big 12 definitely seems like a better option for these schools though.

TCU enters the Big East next year, Texas isn't exactly close to the other Big East schools either.

frisco flyer · #**254** 09-23-2011, 12:51 AM

http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayto...s-1258010.html

Medford · #**255** 09-23-2011, 08:49 AM

IIRC, the BCS contract expires after the 2014 season, or perhaps its prior to the 2014 season. That's closer than we think. I think there will be a couple of key changes to the next BCS contract (which may or may not include a playoff or +1) I can't imagine the either the SEC or the B10 have been all that happy to see a 3rd qualified team left out of the BCS in favor of an ACC or Big East program that wasn't even ranked, as happened last year when Michigan State sat home and UConn struggled to sell tickets to its BCS bowl game. My guess is that both, along w/ the P10 push to allow any conference a 3rd BCS team should they qualify and a bowl select them. To offset this, my guess is that they add 1 bowl game in a +1 scenerio to have 5 BCS bowl games, plus the +1, then couple that by removing the auto bid from any conference and claim that they're opening it up to more conferences. In reality, both the SEC and B10 should feel comfortable that they'll have at least 1 team BCS worthy every season, and their fan bases both travel well enough that any bowl would be happy to take them.

I believe the Big East has had 3 occasions where their auto bid went to someone with less than ideal credentials. If they lose the automatic bid, given the track record of poor ticket sales, even a top 10 BCS ranked Big East team could be left out in favor of a 12th ranked B10, SEC or Notre Dame team that a bowl knows will travel well and fill up the hotels, bars and restaurants in the area.

The B12 has a chance to survive, assuming it can hold on to Texas & OU. That's 2 huge brand name programs. Programs are not made by what lies at the bottom, but rather by what is situated at the top. The brand name programs that draw fans from every corner of the country is what prop up every conference. The Big East has none currently, and isn't likely to find any willing to come on board. WVU is the closest thing they've got, and they're not exactly on the same level as an Ohio State, Texas, Florida or USC. That is the biggest problem the Big East faces going forward.

CE80 · #**256** 09-23-2011, 09:16 AM

Big East football will never ever get to the level of the other BCS conferences. Their realistic goal should be the level of the MAC. None of the teams that are possibles will bring them up to that level. Maybe Pitt and Syracuse came to that realization. Syracuse football is somewhat like UD basketball. They are living in the past. The difference with basketball is that it takes a lot fewer number of quality players to get in the discussion. You need more difference makers in football and those difference makers are not going to Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, etc.

UACFlyer · #**257** 09-23-2011, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Medford

IIRC, the BCS contract expires after the 2014 season, or perhaps its prior to the 2014 season. That's closer than we think. I think there will be a couple of key changes to the next BCS contract (which may or may not include a playoff or +1) I can't imagine the either the SEC or the B10 have been all that happy to see a 3rd qualified team left out of the BCS in favor of an ACC or Big East program that wasn't even ranked, as happened last year when Michigan State sat home and UConn struggled to sell tickets to its BCS bowl game. My guess is that both, along w/ the P10 push to allow any conference a 3rd BCS team should they qualify and a bowl select them. To offset this, my guess is that they add 1 bowl game in a +1 scenerio to have 5 BCS bowl games, plus the +1, then couple that by removing the auto bid from any conference and claim that they're opening it up to more conferences. In reality, both the SEC and B10 should feel comfortable that they'll have at least 1 team BCS worthy every season, and their fan bases both travel well enough that any bowl would be happy to take them.

I believe the Big East has had 3 occasions where their auto bid went to someone with less than ideal credentials. If they lose the automatic bid, given the track record of poor ticket sales, even a top 10 BCS ranked Big East team could be left out in favor of a 12th ranked B10, SEC or Notre Dame team that a bowl knows will travel well and fill up the hotels, bars and restaurants in the area.

The B12 has a chance to survive, assuming it can hold on to Texas & OU. That's 2 huge brand name programs. Programs are not made by what lies at the bottom, but rather by what is situated at the top. The brand name programs that draw fans from every corner of the country is what prop up every conference. The Big East has none currently, and isn't likely to find any willing to come on board. WVU is the closest thing they've got, and they're not exactly on the same level as an Ohio State, Texas, Florida or USC. That is the biggest problem the Big East faces going forward.

It appears as if the Big12 has not only survived but has been signifiicantly strengthened....the teams really want to stay together...which matters a lot. Yesterday it was announced that they agreed to a six year deal the requires any team that bolts to leave behind all their confernence TV revenue. I don't have the numbers; but that is being described and a huge financial penalty far in excess of an exit fee.

They need a 10th team....and have many options. If they go for TCU that will be another nail in the BE coffin. BYU is also mentioned.

Bat'71 · #**258** 09-23-2011, 09:39 AM

It's all about the "Bucks". I doubt the other BCS conferences (who I don't believe ever fully embraced the BE as a legitimate BCS member to begin with) are going to be willing to share BCS bowl money with a reconstituted BE that now hopes to lure Navy, AF or ECU into the remnants of that league. Prior to the BE emerging as a BCS conference, the main bowls (Orange, Rose, Cotton , Sugar) all had league affiliated tie-ups that didn't include any Northeast schools (Penn State and maybe Pitt/Wva or 'Cuse would occasionally get Orange Bowl invitations)...so there's not much "history" with the BE and major bowl games. The expanded SEC, ACC, Pac XII and Big Ten all have more mouths to feed and if they can jettison the BE from the BCS bowl money, I think they will.

Medford · #**259** 09-23-2011, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

It appears as if the Big12 has not only survived but has been signifiicantly strengthened....the teams really want to stay together...which matters a lot. Yesterday it was announced that they agreed to a six year deal the requires any team that bolts to leave behind all their confernence TV revenue. I don't have the numbers; but that is being described and a huge financial penalty far in excess of an exit fee.

They need a 10th team....and have many options. If they go for TCU that will be another nail in the BE coffin. BYU is also mentioned.

If they're truely in it together (which I have my doubts) I wonder how much thought has been given to going back to 12 teams and a conference championship game. Aside from TCU, Louisville, WVU and possibly UC could be attractive options for a 12 team B12.

UACFlyer · #**260** 09-23-2011, 10:42 AM

.....in that part of the country there are many options. The BE's problem is all about geography....essentially no options in the NE-Mid-Atlantic regions.

Medford · #**261** 09-23-2011, 10:54 AM

UAC, what's the feeling around UConn? Is an ACC invite forthcoming anytime soon, or is UConn "stuck" in the Big East for now?

ud2 · #**262** 09-23-2011, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by CE80

Big East football will never ever get to the level of the other BCS conferences. Their realistic goal should be the level of the MAC. None of the teams that are possibles will bring them up to that level. Maybe Pitt and Syracuse came to that realization. Syracuse football is somewhat like UD basketball. They are living in the past. The difference with basketball is that it takes a lot fewer number of quality players to get in the discussion. You need more difference makers in football and those difference makers are not going to Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, etc.

I agree that the BE will most likely never get to the level of the other BCS conferences, but the BE isn't all that bad. The BE has had some good teams recently: Cincinnati, Connecticut, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, South Florida, and West Virginia have all been good recently. The only team that has really struggled is Syracuse. And Syracuse has been very good in the past, having produced several NFL players, but Syracuse is going through an extended down period right now.

The problem seems to be that the BE is not a "destination" league. It seems like a lot of the successful BE coaches from the last few years have left for better jobs: Rodriguez at WVU leaves for Michigan, Kelly at UC leaves for ND, Dantonio at UC leaves for Michigan State, Louisville's Petrino leaves to coach the Atlanta Falcons and then one year later takes the Arkansas job, and Louisville's John L. Smith leaves for Michigan State. It is very difficult for a league to have continued success when the best coaches are constantly leaving for better jobs.

UACFlyer · #**263** 09-23-2011, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Medford

UAC, what's the feeling around UConn? Is an ACC invite forthcoming anytime soon, or is UConn "stuck" in the Big East for now?

Med, UConn is putting up a confident front; but I think everyone realizes this is big trouble. Of course, UConn and Rutgers would be great for the ACC, which would then dominate the entire East coast from Boston to Miami.

But the ACC has no reason to hurry....action by the Big Ten could pressure the ACC to act.

Here is an interesting twist. In 2005 when BC left for the ACC BC's behavior was so deceitful and sneaky that it caused bad blood between the BC and the BE schools, especially UC. The State of CT sued BC and while the case never made it to court, BC. Miami and the ACC paid a multi-million dollar settlement to end the suit.

UConn has not played BC in any sport since...and Calhoun says he never will.

Now it is rumored that BC is strongly against admission of UConn to the ACC and is working to get support for its position. BC...a Catholic, Jesuit school.
This goes beyond just rumors. This morning it was reported that UConn's new president, less than three months on the job, has personally communicated with BC's president, a priest, in an attempt to mend fences. There is no indication that she was successful.

But, UC's president, Susan Herbst, comes from the U. of Georgia system, was educated at Duke, and is very, very impressive. She is well connected with ACC peers. But, to think that one of her jobs is to counter opposition from neighboring BC tells you how nasty the whole business is.

In the ACC UConn is golden.....otherwise, big trouble.

Medford · #**264** 09-23-2011, 11:36 AM

thanks, I didn't realize the blood was that bad. Time heals all wounds I imagine, though I wonder how much pull BC has w/n the ACC to block UConn if the rest of the conference really wanted them. Seems to me, the ACC's best card at the moment, is to turn itself into the Big East+. Football wise, they'll never catch up to what the B10 & SEC can offer long term, however w/ Florida State & Miami it has 2 marquee programs with national appeal on the football side that the big East hasn't had since Miami & VTech left. On the basketball side, they can become everybit as dominant, if not more so than what the Big East is today. Adding UConn adds a decent football program that won't hurt you and a basketball power that raises the profile. I don't know what Rutgers gives you other than the NYC market. Even w/o Rutgers, the addition of 'Cuse, UConn & Pitt to Duke & UNC may just give them the NYC market outside of Johnny fans.

DallasFlyer · #**265** 09-23-2011, 11:53 AM

I get the feeling that Texas is campaigning hard for BYU to join the Big 12. Not so much because they really want BYU or because it is a good fit (and I think it is) but because they do not want to add any Texas schools - TCU, SMU, Houston. It's sort of like how Ohio State views playing in-state schools in basketball. They don't have to play them, and if they never lose to those schools, then they feel they are minimizing any threat to being the premier in-state option. And historically in the Big 12, what Texas wants, Texas gets.

Chris R · #**266** 09-23-2011, 01:16 PM

Im not sure BYU has a lot in common academically or athletically or spiritually with those Big 12 schools. Maybe Baylor comes closest. Just seems like ann odd fit for me. Competition wise, it would be good for them, but would the Big XII just take them in football? BYU just joined the WCC.

UACFlyer · #**267** 09-23-2011, 01:30 PM

...sometimes it matters, sometimes not.

I went to grad school at Northwestern.....a Big Ten founding member since 1896. As the only private school in the Big Ten,...and one of the Nation's truly elite universities,.....NU has practically nothing in common with the large public universites that comprise the conference.

When the Big Ten really was "ten", very often I heard the lament that Northwestern was always on the short end of 9-1 votes on conference decisions.

Doesn't seem to matter....it's been over 100 years and the it's hard to imagine the Big Ten without NU.

I am reminded though, that Notre Dame, which simply must have its own way all the time, might have a rough time of it in a conference in which it is overwhelmingly out numbered by public institutions having different objectives and strategies. NU is used to it...ND ceratainly would not be. That could be a consideration if ND ever has so choose between the Big Ten and the ACC, the latter having more private schools and perhaps a more accommodating attitude toward their private partners.

Glen Clark · #**268** 09-23-2011, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by CE80

Big East football will never ever get to the level of the other BCS conferences. Their realistic goal should be the level of the MAC. None of the teams that are possibles will bring them up to that level. Maybe Pitt and Syracuse came to that realization. Syracuse football is somewhat like UD basketball. They are living in the past. The difference with basketball is that it takes a lot fewer number of quality players to get in the discussion. You need more difference makers in football and those difference makers are not going to Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, etc.

The Big East does have the best football team in Ohio . . .

___________________
Whether your glass is half empty or half full, you still have more to drink.

San Diego Flyer · #**269** 09-23-2011, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by DallasFlyer

I get the feeling that Texas is campaigning hard for BYU to join the Big 12. Not so much because they really want BYU or because it is a good fit (and I think it is) but because they do not want to add any Texas schools - TCU, SMU, Houston. It's sort of like how Ohio State views playing in-state schools in basketball. They don't have to play them, and if they never lose to those schools, then they feel they are minimizing any threat to being the premier in-state option. And historically in the Big 12, what Texas wants, Texas gets.

There's probably a lot of truth to that theory, emanating heavily from alumni. But really TCU, SMU, and Houston never put a serious dent in the UT locomotive over the years. Except possibly the years when SMU put in the play-for-pay system.

UACFlyer · #**270** 09-25-2011, 09:23 AM

According to this morning's paper UConn has determined that Boston College is working to establish a block within the ACC that would prevent UConn from joining the conference.

Those Catholics! That would be sort of like Dayton trying to do in Miami or Cincinnatti, or vice versa, in some similar circumstance.

Fudd · #**271** 09-25-2011, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

According to this morning's paper UConn has determined that Boston College is working to establish a block within the ACC that would prevent UConn from joining the conference.

Those Catholics! That would be sort of like Dayton trying to do in Miami or Cincinnatti, or vice versa, in some similar circumstance.

Or Cincinnati trying to hold Xavier out of the Big East. Which makes me wonder what happens if Cincinnati stays with the Big East in basketball and moves football to another conference.

UACFlyer · #**272** 09-25-2011, 10:06 AM

....I think.

I can understand a school strongly preferring not to have another school in the same city in its conference. I'm not sure UD would be thrilled to have Wright State in the A10. But I doubt if UD, UC or X would care in the school was 50-100 miles away. In fact, you'll recall that one of UD's arguments for the benefits (to a conference) of its proximity to Xavier is that UD and X would be travel partners...a significant advantage for Olympic sports.

Boston College is 500-600 miles from the nearest ACC school. One of the arguments made for ACC admission of UConn (and/or Rutgers) is improved geographic balance,..not to mention the NYC TV market.

No, Boston College has other motives. When it comes to athletics, there are only two people at the helm at a university, the AD and the president, with the latter depending heavily on the former. BC's AD, Gene DeFilippo, is a weasel whose deceitful actions eight years ago when BC joined the ACC while professing unwavering loyalty to the Big East provided much of the basis for the lawsuit against BC and the ACC.

The wording of the legal complaint was that the BC-ACC negotiations were a... "backroom conspiracy, born in secrecy, founded on greed, and carried out through calculated deceit". It was the "deceit" that so disturbed the Big East schools, UConn in particular,...and DiFilippo was the primary actor, most likely the sole actor.

That was then and this is now. No one whose was in either the UConn or CT state administrations at the time is now there. Everyone is new. However, at BC DiFilippo remains AD and it is widely believed in CT that he is the person working to block a UConn presence in the ACC. The BC president, Father Leahy, seems to follow DiFilippo's lead entirely re matters of athletics.

We'll see how this plays out. UC's leadership is not without skills and connections, as well as friends in the ACC. But the ACC holds all the cards...and BC could be very helpful. Alas, the exact opposite is true.

Fudd · #**273** 09-25-2011, 10:17 AM

Universities commonly try to block other universities in their region from entering the same conference. Why would they want to compete for the local recruits, viewing audience, etc? What is the difference between Boston College leaving for the ACC and both Pitt and Syracuse leaving for the ACC? UConn wants to get into the ACC now for it's own financial interests. Are they all evil?

UACFlyer · #**274** 09-25-2011, 10:53 AM

Back in 2003 the Big East football conference was relatively strong: Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, Rutgers, Va Tech, Miami. At the time the ACC decided to expand by adding Syracuse, BC and Miami...and contacted those schools directly....no courtesy notification to the BE office, which infuriated the Big East commissior.

Syracuse declined the offer after careful consideration. I don't recall the Miami or BC initial reaction. Meanwhile, Va Tech went nuts, seeing the harm the ACC raid would cause....Va Tech went directly to the Gov of VA and appealed for help....and got it, the Gov notifying the president of UVA that UVA was not to support any ACC plan that did not include Va Tech.

So, the ACC changed its plan and added only Miami and Va Tech.....note, two southern schools.

Meanwhile, the remaining six Big East schools,...essentially all in the North, circled the wagons and started working on a plan to save and strengthen the Big East. Boston College was intimately involved in all aspects of Big East planning over the following one+ year and committed to the conference.

After many BE strategy meetings over the course of a year it was learned that Boston College was secretly negotiating with the ACC for membership.

That action is what drove the BE schools crazy. Not that BC shouldn't do what it thinks is best for BC....but that it deceived the BE members for a year while secretly planning its exit to the ACC. And the ACC participated in the deception.

Now the Big East is in shambles. Several of the remaining schools have committed to stay in the conference. Rutgers and UConn have not. Both have said they will work as hard as possible to make the Big East as strong as possible...but will not commit their schools to membership.

This entire issue is about the integrity of the process. Of course, a school must do what it thinks is in its best interest. But there is an honorable, open way to proceed.

San Diego Flyer · #**275** 09-25-2011, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

This entire issue is about the integrity of the process. Of course, a school must do what it thinks is in its best interest. But there is an honorable, open way to proceed.

I see this current conference turmoil as one closer to the mega-corporate politics than that of an institute of higher learning. If it were the latter, I would agree with you UAC.

A senior executive of a Fortune 50 company shared this personal philosophy for acquisitions and divestitures with me years ago:

1) Don't believe everything you hear.
2) Don't tell everything you know.
3) Nice guys finish last.

The above is much closer to what we are experiencing with current shuffle among conferences. The principals are not acting in the character of learning institutions.
I don't know if it's right or wrong, but it is what it is.

bobber · #**276** 09-25-2011, 03:42 PM

The Baltimore Sun talks about the possibility of Navy to the Big East and UConn and Rutgers to the ACC. Nothing is definite, but the fact they're talking along these lines is significant in and of itself. And a thousand pardons if this has already been posted.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...letic-director

San Diego Flyer · #**277** 09-25-2011, 08:05 PM

I guess it comes to "bring on the lawsuit Baylor", as Aggies make their departure etched in stone:

http://espn.go.com/dallas/story/_/id...t-accepted-sec

Medford · #**278** 09-26-2011, 12:47 PM

Navy would be a member in football only, correct? I wonder how much, if any, influence the non football schools have on who is invited to play football. Obviously they have a say in a full conference membership, but perhaps they have no say in a football only membership (which would make sense) Perhaps a signal that the bball schools don't want any joe schmoe's weaking the basketball side of things like TCU will in the name of football, so the football side is forced to invite a football only member to get things back to the required 8 teams needed to maintain BCS status

bobber · #**279** 09-26-2011, 01:20 PM

Wow, the Big East is so desperate for football victories they just fleeced a MAC school for a tainted win. I mean, if you can't get an extra point call right after reviewing it on video tape replay, you are either incompetent or dishonest.........or maybe both.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...due-refs-error

longtimefan · #**280** 09-26-2011, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by bobber

Wow, the Big East is so desperate for football victories they just fleeced a MAC school for a tainted win. I mean, if you can't get an extra point call right after reviewing it on video tape replay, you are either incompetent or dishonest.........or maybe both.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...due-refs-error

Toledo got screwed - big time. I'm going to say it was dishonest. I did not see the kick, but I know several people who did. They said it was an obvious miss.

UACFlyer · #**281** 09-26-2011, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Medford

Navy would be a member in football only, correct? I wonder how much, if any, influence the non football schools have on who is invited to play football. Obviously they have a say in a full conference membership, but perhaps they have no say in a football only membership (which would make sense) Perhaps a signal that the bball schools don't want any joe schmoe's weaking the basketball side of things like TCU will in the name of football, so the football side is forced to invite a football only member to get things back to the required 8 teams needed to maintain BCS status

...football is only sport that Navy plays at "Div 1A" level. If UP and SU had not left the Big East the BE would till have welcomed Navy...they've been trying to lure Navy for years. But Navy cannot play basketball and other sports at the major college level....it's got to be FB only.

Bill McPeek · #**282** 09-26-2011, 02:44 PM

Medford, I think the BE football schools have been calling the shots for some time. Just how fed up the basketball only schools are with that arrangement would be pure speculation, but I don't think they are happy with it. What it all means.......I have no idea.

bobber · #**283** 09-26-2011, 02:46 PM

As far as the service academies go, they can play good D1 football. But you have to wonder if any of them can progress past a certain point. By that I mean, could any academy team get a top 25 rating in this day and age? I, for one, seriously doubt it. The AFA might have done it ten or twenty years ago playing in the WAC, but the game has moved on since then and I don't think there are many WAC-like situations anymore.

Why couldn't the academies run with the big boys today? It should be obvious. The academies have such rigorous entrance requirements that likely 80 or 90 percent of kids on D1 football scholarship right now could never even come close to meeting the academic qualifications for West Point, Annapolis or the AFA. So the pickings are mighty slim talent-wise. Then, I do believe I've heard there are physical limitations as well......cadets can not be over a certain height or weight. So 6'7" receivers and 300 pound linemen need not apply. I'm afraid even a modern day Roger Staubach would be running for his life behind a hopelessly undersized offensive line.

So, will the academies plug membership holes for the football Big East? Yes!

Will they help the conference keep its BCS status? No!

Sea Bass · #**284** 09-26-2011, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bill McPeek

but I don't think they are happy with it.

but they are happy to take the money.

Bill McPeek · #**285** 09-26-2011, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sea Bass

but they are happy to take the money.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the basketball schools share any of the revenue from football. Anyone know for sure?

rollo · #**286** 09-26-2011, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by longtimefan

Toledo got screwed - big time. I'm going to say it was dishonest. I did not see the kick, but I know several people who did. They said it was an obvious miss.

It's obvious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asz-sof4UoU&NR=1

Even the Big East Head of Officials agrees they blew the call. But since the play was reviewed on the field and not overturned, it appears Toledo has no other options.

Sea Bass · #**287** 09-26-2011, 03:20 PM

I guess the BE will send along a note to have the "Kentucky Jelly" handy next time.

Medford · #**288** 09-26-2011, 03:38 PM

I couldn't get the link to work, but on Lance McCallister's blog:

http://www.espn1530.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

there is a link, with a blurb from lance regarding that link that Louisville has been offered a spot in the revamped B12, plus further talks with BYU & UC.

If, I repeat IF, OU & Texas are to remain in the B12, at least for the next 6 years of their current agreement, this makes sense to me. For sure, Baylor, Texas Tech, Iowa State, Kansas State (ie the teams left for dead recently, or reseigned to riding the coat tails of their instate brothern) it would offer a little more security if/when OU or Texas leave for different pastures. For OU & Texas, getting back to 12 would allow for a conference championship game and the profits it generates, not to mention w/ the P12 & B10 scheduled to go to 9 game conference schedule soon, plus the 14-16 memberhsip of the SEC & ACC likely forcing them into a similar 9 game conference schedule, solid OOC matchups are going to be hard to fill after the first 3 weeks of the season if the B12 remained at 8 or 9 teams. Get to 10 or 12, and you can go to 9 conference games like everyone else. The big east faces this challenge currently at 8 teams, so its something the B12 should be aware about.

From Louisville (and potentially UC) perspective, you almost have to jump on this if true. I'd much rather hinge my ride to the tailegates of OU & Texas as the premier conference members than the tailgates of WVU as the premier conference affliate. That of course assumes WVU keeps their program in the big east and doesn't become the 14th member of the SEC

ud69 · #**289** 09-26-2011, 03:39 PM

What makes this Toledo/Syracuse call so unbelievable is the level of incompetency needed to come up with this result.

First - the decision by the referee directly under the upright had to have been wrong. This is not a subjective decision regarding the ball going over the top of the upright. It was completely objective - either it was inside or outside the pole - and he got it wrong. How many of those mistakes happen in all of college football in one year - probably none.

Second - The replay from the far end of the field was as plain as could be. The ball crossed in front of the upright. How could a replay official ignore the physics of the video?

The odds of this happening had to have been greater than the odds of a piece of the UARS satellite hitting any one person on the ground.

One therefore has to ask the question - Was it incompetency or something else?

Sea Bass · #**290** 09-26-2011, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by ud69

One therefore has to ask the question - Was it incompetency or something else?

the odds you laid out above make the former an unlikely scenario. There is no conceivable way to have gotten this call wrong.

longtimefan · #**291** 09-26-2011, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by ud69

What makes this Toledo/Syracuse call so unbelievable is the level of incompetency needed to come up with this result.

First - the decision by the referee directly under the upright had to have been wrong. This is not a subjective decision regarding the ball going over the top of the upright. It was completely objective - either it was inside or outside the pole - and he got it wrong. How many of those mistakes happen in all of college football in one year - probably none.

Second - The replay from the far end of the field was as plain as could be. The ball crossed in front of the upright. How could a replay official ignore the physics of the video?

The odds of this happening had to have been greater than the odds of a piece of the UARS satellite hitting any one person on the ground.

One therefore has to ask the question - Was it incompetency or something else?

Now that I have seen the kick it is even more ridiculous. Your point that the ball was not above the upright is the key. The ball obviously crossed in front of the upright and did not go through. Someone is a crook and wanted to help a Big East team beat a "lowly" MAC team. I hope the Big East implodes - sooner rather than later.

bobber · #**292** 09-26-2011, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Medford

I couldn't get the link to work, but on Lance McCallister's blog:

http://www.espn1530.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

there is a link, with a blurb from lance regarding that link that Louisville has been offered a spot in the revamped B12, plus further talks with BYU & UC.

If, I repeat IF, OU & Texas are to remain in the B12, at least for the next 6 years of their current agreement, this makes sense to me. For sure, Baylor, Texas Tech, Iowa State, Kansas State (ie the teams left for dead recently, or reseigned to riding the coat tails of their instate brothern) it would offer a little more security if/when OU or Texas leave for different pastures. For OU & Texas, getting back to 12 would allow for a conference championship game and the profits it generates, not to mention w/ the P12 & B10 scheduled to go to 9 game conference schedule soon, plus the 14-16 memberhsip of the SEC & ACC likely forcing them into a similar 9 game conference schedule, solid OOC matchups are going to be hard to fill after the first 3 weeks of the season if the B12 remained at 8 or 9 teams. Get to 10 or 12, and you can go to 9 conference games like everyone else. The big east faces this challenge currently at 8 teams, so its something the B12 should be aware about.

From Louisville (and potentially UC) perspective, you almost have to jump on this if true. I'd much rather hinge my ride to the tailegates of OU & Texas as the premier conference members than the tailgates of WVU as the premier conference affliate. That of course assumes WVU keeps their program in the big east and doesn't become the 14th member of the SEC

If the Big 12 has, in fact, offered Louisville and Cincinnati it doesn't seem like Big East football is long for this world. UConn and Rutgers must be begging Swofford for admission to the ACC.

PS...the link is below.

http://gregswaim.com/2011/09/confere...ment-not-dead/

sheg · #**293** 09-26-2011, 06:27 PM

Here's an argument for WVU to the SEC as #14, combined with U of L and UC to the Big 12, would effectively kill Big East football.

San Diego Flyer · #**294** 09-26-2011, 06:40 PM

Toledo couldn't have been jobbed any worse. We rarely hear from the guys that missed the call, this replay official should man-up and speak.

That said, if the score is 29 to 27 with 2:07 left in the game, the dynamics of the defense changes somewhat IMO. If Syracuse knows it will get beat by a field goal at that point, they don't give ground near as easily. It's possible they deny the field goal position by Toledo by changing from a quasi-prevent defense and gamble with a stronger stand.

In other words with the proper change in score, no one really knows positively how the last 2 minutes of the game would have gone.

27-29 does not = 30-29 for certain.

UACFlyer · #**295** 09-26-2011, 07:59 PM

The pirates that run the ACC would seem to be in the cat-bird seat with 14 teams and no need to rush to get to 16, if ever. And we know that the ACC members have voted to increase the exit penalty to $20 million, a nice piece of change.

Nonetheless, apparently FSU is less than thrilled with the caliber of ACC football...and is not at all impressed with the addition if SU and UP. FSU has announced that it has formed an exploratory committee to evaluate its conference position and options. Sources say there is only one "option" that FSU is considering...and that is becoming the SEC's 14th team.

Should FSU decide that the SEC looks good...and if the SEC likes the idea of adding FSU as its 14th team, then things get interesting for the ACC which will then drop down to 13 schools and will most likely be looking to add other member.

I'd love to see the ACC get squeezed a bit. However, given the sorry state of the remaining BE FB schools, the ACC would have no trouble adding a solid school.

I'm still wondering about the Big Ten's desire to expand east.

ClevelandFlyer05 · #**296** 09-26-2011, 10:26 PM

I believe Delaney when he says that he is happy with where the conference is at the moment. Or, in other words, one might say that there isn't much out there that's worth adding. Basically, I think the Big Ten's list looks like this:

1) Notre Dame

2) Missouri

3) Everyone else.

ClevelandFlyer05 · #**297** 09-26-2011, 10:27 PM

Also, considering Syracuse is actually one of the schools leaving the Big East, I would actually think that BE officials would love to give them the screws by overturning the call if at all possible.

UACFlyer · #**298** 09-27-2011, 09:09 AM

Rick Pitino has an interesting point of view re the motivation for the ACC's going after Pitt and Syracuse....and it has nothing to do with football. Rick points out that PU and SU hardly strengthen ACC football....and he's right about that.

Pitino claims that there was pressure from various basketball quarters within the ACC to "do something about Big East basketball", i.e., BE BB had become so dominant as measured by OOC play, NCAA bids and performance, TV appearances, etc., that ACC basketball had become eclipsed to an unacceptable degree by the Big East.

Going after two of the Big East's strongest BB programs helps address the imbalance.

Now that's Pitino's opinion. But, for sure, he knows more about the inner workings and politics of the college basketball scene than any of us.

bobber · #**299** 09-27-2011, 12:09 PM

Well, Pitino is certainly right. Without Syracuse and Pitt the BE isn't the best basketball conference in the country anymore. Likely, that title will pass to the ACC. Duke, North Carolina, Pitt and Syracuse is a pretty imposing group at the top of the conference.

FSUFlyer · #**300** 09-27-2011, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by xubrew

This is true, and it was unanimously voted on by all current ACC members. that is another reason to believe the league will stay together and that no one will bolt for the SEC. You don't vote to raise the penalty to $20 million if you're even considering leaving the conference. It was UNANIMOUS. I don't think anyone is leaving.

Word is FSU's and Maryland's presidents were able to decrease the buyout from $34M to only 20M. The ACC wanted to make it almost impossible to leave. I have no idea how they were able to persuade the other 10 presidents to decrease the buyout but apparently it happened. The vote was unanimous because it seems like it was going to be passed regardless, so why vote against it and self-ostracize yourself?

Originally Posted by Medford

So why not UConn, they would seem like a natural choice to the ACC? I figure its one of two things, either UConn is holding out hope (and has good indication that hopes are good) of joining the B10, or the ACC is holding back hoping to pick up Notre Dame before going to 15 & 16 members. The ACC also has to deal with rumors of Florida State packing up bags and heading to the SEC.

It's ND. If other conferences finish picking the Big East apart the ACC will make a strong play for ND. Supposedly the two were in talks back in 2003ish when the ACC raided the Big East but they fell threw. So I'm assuming there's some interesting even if it's small. Also seems like there are quite a few people in the media - including some with ND ties - that think the ACC is a better fit than the Big Ten.

Not sure FSU leaves for the SEC. Depends on the money this expanded ACC is expecting to get. Also seems like the SEC is afraid of adding FSU and perhaps Clemson. NC State, UNC, VT and, at least according to some SEC fans, Maryland are all targets. I don't see any of those 3 leaving, though.

Originally Posted by UACFlyer

Nonetheless, apparently FSU is less than thrilled with the caliber of ACC football...and is not at all impressed with the addition if SU and UP. FSU has announced that it has formed an exploratory committee to evaluate its conference position and options. Sources say there is only one "option" that FSU is considering...and that is becoming the SEC's 14th team.

Just an fyi, but FSU formed that committee BEFORE the ACC added Cuse and Pitt. It wasn't just recently formed in response to their additions. I have no idea how anyone in a position of power at FSU truly feels. I can only tell you what they are saying publicly, which doesn't mean much, but they seem to be happy in the ACC. The fanbase is pretty split on message boards I've read. I think if the ACC's tv money increases to close to that of the Big Ten or Pac 12 that more people will be fine with the move. If, however, the money doesn't get the ACC on the same financial level, then I think more fans will want to see a move to the SEC.

Originally Posted by Bat'71

At least the ACC mentioned academics in their choice of adding Pitt and Syracuse, but methinks that is more of a fig leaf than anything else.

I absolutely think academics matter to the ACC. Aside from the Big Ten, it is the ONLY major conference that can claim all of its members are well-respected national research universities. Every school is in the top 100 of US News (102nd for FSU and NC State) and the ACC has more top 50 schools than any conference not named "Ivy League". There's just no chance UC, UL, WVU or USF would ever get invited to the ACC.

Originally Posted by Chris R

I still think nothing affects Dayton. Its just a re-arranging of the deck chairs from conference to conference. As long as the BE basketball schools continue to be content with football money in exchange for no bargaining power among conference issues, this train never leaves the station.

It looks like a rearranging of chairs for football schools. But I'm under the impression the Big East has a separate contract for football and basketball and the basketball schools don't receive football money. I don't know why the Big East's basketball schools would be willing to be part of an 18+ member basketball conference. But maybe they would. IF they would, it'd be because the basketball money is better in that unwieldy league than out of it.

Originally Posted by Chris R

Similarly, the Big East is currently at 6 football schools: WVU, UConn, South Florida, Cincinnati, Louisville, Rutgers. Its by far the weakest football conference and a strong case can be made that it no longer deserves a BCS bid, instead going to the WAC or Mountain West.

If the Big East loses their AQ status it won't be going to the WAC or MWC.

===============

Jmo, but I don't I want Texas in the ACC. I don't see any way they'd be a stable member. Not with their tv network. Not without several TX or OK schools joining them. Without at least OU in the ACC with UT, I'd forever be fearful that they'd jump to which ever conference had OU or A&M. Unless the ACC goes to 18-20, I just don't see it happening or making sense.

Some have mentioned ND's rivalries with Big Ten schools. Well, it has an annual rivalry with Pitt and has a current contract with BC to play 6 more times through 2019. ND also has dormant series with both Miami and GT that would be brought back to life. And has played a handful of games against FSU over the past two decades. Big Ten provides a better ability to maintain more current rivals but it's not like the ACC doesn't also provide some opportunity to protect rivalries.

As soon as ND is off the table, the ACC will offer UConn and Rutgers, I think. Until ND joins a conference there's no need. And the ACC has no fear of the Big Ten adding UConn or Rutgers because the Big Ten wants the same thing the ACC wants: Notre Dame. The ACC had to expand beyond 12 to ensure its survival. The Big Ten is assured of that already and I'd imagine it'd be hard to get enough votes for either Big East school without ND joining with them.

Even if the ACC doesn't land ND, if they're able to add Rutgers and UConn to lock up the entire eastern seaboard, they should be able to do well financially and start its own network. Not an earth-shattering expansion where ND, OU and UT were all available, but enough to keep the ACC viable and competitive financially.

Even if the Big XII sticks together for one more year, I don't see the conference surviving longterm. Mizzou is looking to get out and OU, OK State and Texas were actively shopping themselves. That's not going to change and that won't stop the interest from the other major conferences. Which ever conference figures out how to make Texas' network work will probably be able to lure them away.

All of this currently hinges on who the SEC takes as 14. Mizzou? WVU? Seem to be the top two rumors. And both are in the most fragile of conferences. I think the ACC is just in sit, wait and ready to poach mode while they let the SEC do their dirty work again. That could be direct by adding WVU or indirectly by adding A&M and Mizzou and forcing the Big XII to then add Big East schools.

I don't think there is any "integrity" in conference expansion and I see no need for there to be. Being "up front" or "honest" doesn't change the end-game. You are going to snatch a member or two from another conference. Being nice about it or being ruthless isn't going to change that fact.