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  #1  
Old 04-29-2022, 12:44 PM
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Big NCAA changes could be on the way

@jbook37
Holy smokes the NCAA is basically saying do whatever you want to do, they are done enforcing.

Rules will be up to each conference.

Unlimited coaches.

Direct payments from schools to players.

Analyst and QC coaches can go on the road to recruit.

https://footballscoop.com/news/repor...ing-staff-caps
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  #2  
Old 04-29-2022, 04:38 PM
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Wtf!

This paves the way for a super league of college football. With smaller schools being shut out.
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Old 04-29-2022, 04:57 PM
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WTH, how long before the NCAA makes it legal for the athletic departments to give the Refs a nice healthy tip before and after games?
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Old 04-29-2022, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack D View Post
Wtf!

This paves the way for a super league of college football. With smaller schools being shut out.
This is what Notre Dame's AD is predicting

With NCAA Embroiled in Chaos, Notre Dameís Swarbrick Calls Division I Breakup ĎInevitableí

Wholesale change is unavoidable in college athletics. The Fighting Irish athletic director thinks a total realignment of Division I is coming with it.

https://www.si.com/college/2022/04/2...ision-1-change
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  #5  
Old 04-30-2022, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
Shouldnít we at least let the dust from NIL and no sit transfer settle even a little before claiming college basketball is on life support? What is this like the 5th death of college basketball in the past 5-7 years ?
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Thank you for that, Captain Smith. (The captain of the Titanic.) What's that, like, the 5th "so-called" iceberg sighting?? Full speed ahead!

Maybe there are people who are sighting icebergs who think maybe we should go a different direction BEFORE we hit one, not after. Maybe the outcome is somewhat predictable.
Marysville: hi.
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  #6  
Old 04-30-2022, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Marysville: hi.
So did I miss the Ďcollege basketball is forever cancelledí announcement? Shucks as it seemed to me we were setup to have a great team and season next year.

All this sounds just like all the Ďend of a civilized societyí crap that many were spewing in the midst of the marijuana legalization era. Iíd argue that at least that issue had some merit as if they were right it would affect all society not just some segment of entertainment where each of us decides whether it is worthy of our money.

Just because it may not be how some or even most of us want it to be like Ďback in the good old daysí doesnít mean itís dead.

Itís likely all this money has been being funneled to a few kids (and to shady others) for many years. Now the shades have been removed for all to see and all some are shocked and reacting to is whatís already been there - tons of money and gifts being funneled to kids, their families and handlers (houses, high paying coaching jobs etc.). Itís not going away if the NCAA outs itís foot down and stops NIL or no sit transfer even if it could. At least now more than just a few will get a share of all the cash thatís out there and shared by just a greedy few.

So 1-5 years down the line when when the dust has settled and the pendulum slowed if there are 2 roads - one which is a free for all with Ďno rulesí for the best of the best and another where it is truly amateur like intended, is that death of college sports or is that better for college sports? If you truly love amateur sports at the college level, Iíd argue that would make it better. Thatís how it is now in most sports in college that arenít Football or Basketball.

I will continue to wait and watch and then decide how to spend my entertainment dollars. Feel free to continue to play the role of Chicken Little.
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Last edited by Marysville Flyer; 04-30-2022 at 10:17 AM..
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Old 04-30-2022, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
So 1-5 years down the line when when the dust has settled and the pendulum slowed if there are 2 roads - one which is a free for all with Ďno rulesí for the best of the best and another where it is truly amateur like intended, is that death of college sports or is that better for college sports? If you truly love amateur sports at the college level, Iíd argue that would make it better. Thatís how it is now in most sports in college that arenít Football or Basketball.
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I haven't heard anyone say its the end of college basketball, more like the end of it as we know it. I think many/some saw some of the changes and seen more coming, and projected the rest. As for making basketball/football like other college sports, if the crowds drop to the same level as those other sports I say it is the end as we know it.
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Old 04-30-2022, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Marysville Flyer View Post
So did I miss the ‘college basketball is forever cancelled’ announcement? Shucks as it seemed to me we were setup to have a great team and season next year.

All this sounds just like all the ‘end of a civilized society’ crap that many were spewing in the midst of the marijuana legalization era. I’d argue that at least that issue had some merit as if they were right it would affect all society not just some segment of entertainment where each of us decides whether it is worthy of our money.

Just because it may not be how some or even most of us want it to be like ‘back in the good old days’ doesn’t mean it’s dead.

It’s likely all this money has been being funneled to a few kids (and to shady others) for many years. Now the shades have been removed for all to see and all some are shocked and reacting to is what’s already been there - tons of money and gifts being funneled to kids, their families and handlers (houses, high paying coaching jobs etc.). It’s not going away if the NCAA outs it’s foot down and stops NIL or no sit transfer even if it could. At least now more than just a few will get a share of all the cash that’s out there and shared by just a greedy few.

So 1-5 years down the line when when the dust has settled and the pendulum slowed if there are 2 roads - one which is a free for all with ‘no rules’ for the best of the best and another where it is truly amateur like intended, is that death of college sports or is that better for college sports? If you truly love amateur sports at the college level, I’d argue that would make it better. That’s how it is now in most sports in college that aren’t Football or Basketball.

I will continue to wait and watch and then decide how to spend my entertainment dollars. Feel free to continue to play the role of Chicken Little.
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Keep the fire away from that straw man. Forever cancelled announcement? Good God. Yes, that's precisely what I said, word for word, there will never be another basketball game played, ever again. Not even a Nerf hoop in a dorm room! FFS dude.

As the article says, the door is opening wide to having the "haves" (P5 plus BE in basketball--maybe) to simply defect and make their own rules. The haves will pay their players and the have nots will simply not have the resources to keep up. The haves will have 20 scholarships and the have nots will not be able to fill half of theirs.

Just take your pride off the table for one second and answer: how is this good for Dayton sitting in the A10? How is having every conference make their own rules good for Dayton? C'mon man. I know you've already gone all in on a single answer ("there's nothing to see here") but take a breath and reassess the situation. This is at best not terrible, only bad for Dayton and college sports in general.

You're going to argue millions of dollars being more transparent is good, ask yourself if North Carolina is in favor or against this. They're in favor. Now they can keep doing what they were doing before but on a bigger scale and without having to hide it. That's not good for the A10.
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  #9  
Old 04-30-2022, 05:08 PM
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Seems to me that some ol fart up north in Miami County has been saying for
several years (5/6?) that the BIG boys (Power 5) were going to "take their ball and
run with it" and therefore the Flyers men had better win a D1 National hoops championship
soon because in the near future all UD will be playing for is a birth in the NIT.

Hate to say it but I told you so..............................
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  #10  
Old 04-30-2022, 06:16 PM
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........and not playing for the Natl Championship each year will
kill the Flyer Nation. You wont see 13,400 in the arena watching to see if their beloved Flyers will make the NIT.

SURE HOPE I'M WRONG!!
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  #11  
Old 04-30-2022, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Keep the fire away from that straw man. Forever cancelled announcement? Good God. Yes, that's precisely what I said, word for word, there will never be another basketball game played, ever again. Not even a Nerf hoop in a dorm room! FFS dude.

As the article says, the door is opening wide to having the "haves" (P5 plus BE in basketball--maybe) to simply defect and make their own rules. The haves will pay their players and the have nots will simply not have the resources to keep up. The haves will have 20 scholarships and the have nots will not be able to fill half of theirs.

Just take your pride off the table for one second and answer: how is this good for Dayton sitting in the A10? How is having every conference make their own rules good for Dayton? C'mon man. I know you've already gone all in on a single answer ("there's nothing to see here") but take a breath and reassess the situation. This is at best not terrible, only bad for Dayton and college sports in general.

You're going to argue millions of dollars being more transparent is good, ask yourself if North Carolina is in favor or against this. They're in favor. Now they can keep doing what they were doing before but on a bigger scale and without having to hide it. That's not good for the A10.
When it comes to college basketball and recruiting and transfer and financial rule changes, the first thing I always ask myself is "how will this effect the Flyers?".

But that not all that it's about to me. If say only 80 teams had the resources to compete in this new basketball world and Dayton was one of those(Yeah, I don't believe that either but...), I still would lose my interest. I love that there are 350 division I teams and that it's not inconceivable that any one of them can pull a St. Peters at some point in time. If I want less teams with any chance to have moments in the sun, I'd be an NBA fan.

College basketball to me is that the Davey's get their shot at Goliath at some point. I love it when the good blue bloods play each other, I love it when the blue bloods play the mid-majors and lower conferences. I love watching it when to low ranked teams play each other sometimes. But it's great to know going into any year that there are going to be games(just about every week during OOC conference) where the "nobodies" compete against the "somebodies". And there are going to be the same type of games during March Madness also.

Yes, there will be college basketball no matter what. I never saw anyone saying the game will disappear. But just like the NFL and MLB, my interest is going to drop big time if not all together due to this. And I'm guessing the same is going to happen for lots of people that aren't entitled P5-Big East fans. And when it comes to college basketball, I don't know what percent of fans fall into that category, but I'm guessing it's very significant.
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Old 04-30-2022, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
When it comes to college basketball and recruiting and transfer and financial rule changes, the first thing I always ask myself is "how will this effect the Flyers?".

But that not all that it's about to me. If say only 80 teams had the resources to compete in this new basketball world and Dayton was one of those(Yeah, I don't believe that either but...), I still would lose my interest. I love that there are 350 division I teams and that it's not inconceivable that any one of them can pull a St. Peters at some point in time. If I want less teams with any chance to have moments in the sun, I'd be an NBA fan.

College basketball to me is that the Davey's get their shot at Goliath at some point. I love it when the good blue bloods play each other, I love it when the blue bloods play the mid-majors and lower conferences. I love watching it when to low ranked teams play each other sometimes. But it's great to know going into any year that there are going to be games(just about every week during OOC conference) where the "nobodies" compete against the "somebodies". And there are going to be the same type of games during March Madness also.

Yes, there will be college basketball no matter what. I never saw anyone saying the game will disappear. But just like the NFL and MLB, my interest is going to drop big time if not all together due to this. And I'm guessing the same is going to happen for lots of people that aren't entitled P5-Big East fans. And when it comes to college basketball, I don't know what percent of fans fall into that category, but I'm guessing it's very significant.
Great post. Sums up my thoughts better than I could do myself
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Old 05-01-2022, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Piqua Flyer '66 View Post
........and not playing for the Natl Championship each year will
kill the Flyer Nation. You wont see 13,400 in the arena watching to see if their beloved Flyers will make the NIT.

SURE HOPE I'M WRONG!!
There's always the potential Gem City Jam to think about to pack the Arena.
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Old 05-01-2022, 06:43 AM
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Gazoo and Smithy your posts on this have been right on (with an un-named poster ..... not so much me thinks. )

From clippings and articles posted here within Pride there are mentions of even coaches that have seen the present and concerned with the future. As one described it - 'it's the wild wild west'.

These rascally billionaires (and millionaires) that can bias the fortunes of a school/team quite handily are out there.

Coaches have even dared to say out loud that what was happening behind closed doors for some schools (and maybe a conference or 2) has now been made 'legal'.

Since the genie has been let out of the bottle (and from my view, the only time I enjoyed seeing a genie leave the bottle was when Barbara Eden did so in I Dream of Jeannie {see below}).

How can you get control of this situation? Not sure. The fact that collectives can spring up in a instant (to keep a player at a school) tells you all you need to know about the environment.

I also get that the coaches livelihood is threatened as they have or could lose total control of their team makeup based upon a player and players family thinking there is more money to be made elsewhere in a heartbeat and transfer mid-season.

And now back to what matters:

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Old 05-01-2022, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty10 View Post
When it comes to college basketball and recruiting and transfer and financial rule changes, the first thing I always ask myself is "how will this effect the Flyers?".

But that not all that it's about to me. If say only 80 teams had the resources to compete in this new basketball world and Dayton was one of those(Yeah, I don't believe that either but...), I still would lose my interest. I love that there are 350 division I teams and that it's not inconceivable that any one of them can pull a St. Peters at some point in time. If I want less teams with any chance to have moments in the sun, I'd be an NBA fan.

College basketball to me is that the Davey's get their shot at Goliath at some point. I love it when the good blue bloods play each other, I love it when the blue bloods play the mid-majors and lower conferences. I love watching it when to low ranked teams play each other sometimes. But it's great to know going into any year that there are going to be games(just about every week during OOC conference) where the "nobodies" compete against the "somebodies". And there are going to be the same type of games during March Madness also.

Yes, there will be college basketball no matter what. I never saw anyone saying the game will disappear. But just like the NFL and MLB, my interest is going to drop big time if not all together due to this. And I'm guessing the same is going to happen for lots of people that aren't entitled P5-Big East fans. And when it comes to college basketball, I don't know what percent of fans fall into that category, but I'm guessing it's very significant.
That is what I like about it too. I think that is what the big shots at the big state schools hate that about it. I feel like UD would pony up the money to play with the big boys, but between consolidation and the top players who will start going to places like Overtime Elite instead of college it will turn into college baseball.

Last edited by The Gem; 05-01-2022 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 05-02-2022, 09:03 AM
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A couple thoughts.
1. This is all about football. With the exception of maybe North Carolina, Kentucky, UCLA, and a handful of others, college basketball is ďthe side chick.ď how do I know this? I live in one of the most iconic football college cities in the country. If college basketball were as high of a priority to this particular institution, the Caverness, uninspiring, usually about 70% full with people knitting, 20,000 seat arena on the banks of the Olentangy wouldíve been replaced by now instead of sitting there after 23 years of use. This just in, the Big Ten, ACC, and SEC networks do not make their money from Tuesday night December college basketball games.
2. Iím not sure if the blue bloods of college basketball, wow in the short term will unequivocally benefit from name, image, and likeness, Will ultimately be in a similar boat because they will be outbid for talent by the G league.
3. We need to win this year. When all of this is shaking out, we need to have multiple second weekend NCAA appearances. I still feel like the big east or whatever basketball centric conference comes out of all this, will be invited to whatever new organization is being formed.
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Old 05-02-2022, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyerferd View Post
A couple thoughts.
1. This is all about football. With the exception of maybe North Carolina, Kentucky, UCLA, and a handful of others, college basketball is ďthe side chick.ď how do I know this? I live in one of the most iconic football college cities in the country. If college basketball were as high of a priority to this particular institution, the Caverness, uninspiring, usually about 70% full with people knitting, 20,000 seat arena on the banks of the Olentangy wouldíve been replaced by now instead of sitting there after 23 years of use. This just in, the Big Ten, ACC, and SEC networks do not make their money from Tuesday night December college basketball games.
2. Iím not sure if the blue bloods of college basketball, wow in the short term will unequivocally benefit from name, image, and likeness, Will ultimately be in a similar boat because they will be outbid for talent by the G league.

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1. This might be more beneficial to the big football programs, and might be the reason it's been allowed to happen so quickly but that doesn't mean that there won't be a huge effect on college basketball. There will be.

2. The G-League will never be in a bidding war with college basketball. That would be like saying the NFL practice squads will be in a bidding war with college football.
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Old 05-02-2022, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyerferd View Post
A couple thoughts.
1. This is all about football. With the exception of maybe North Carolina, Kentucky, UCLA, and a handful of others, college basketball is ďthe side chick.ď how do I know this? I live in one of the most iconic football college cities in the country. If college basketball were as high of a priority to this particular institution, the Caverness, uninspiring, usually about 70% full with people knitting, 20,000 seat arena on the banks of the Olentangy wouldíve been replaced by now instead of sitting there after 23 years of use. This just in, the Big Ten, ACC, and SEC networks do not make their money from Tuesday night December college basketball games.
2. Iím not sure if the blue bloods of college basketball, wow in the short term will unequivocally benefit from name, image, and likeness, Will ultimately be in a similar boat because they will be outbid for talent by the G league.
3. We need to win this year. When all of this is shaking out, we need to have multiple second weekend NCAA appearances. I still feel like the big east or whatever basketball centric conference comes out of all this, will be invited to whatever new organization is being formed.
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To say this is about only football, because you live in a football town is delusional. Try living in Lexington or Louisville or Lawrence KS or Spokane WS or Raleigh/Durham. Not everything revolves around attendance. Sure football has big attendance (and huge expenses) for about 25 programs, but that is like saying people do not care about chicken, but only steak.

Schools care about football, basketball and baseball and will attract big bucks for them, and to a lesser degree volleyball and soccer.
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Old 05-02-2022, 11:49 AM
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According to a 2019 report, di football generated an average of $31.9 million. Basketball is 2nd at $8.1 million.
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Old 05-02-2022, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
According to a 2019 report, di football generated an average of $31.9 million. Basketball is 2nd at $8.1 million.
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Per team?

I would think that the main reason is that it's easier to generate profit through televising football as the main teams have a more expanded fan base. For instance, most college football fans that are also UD basketball fans root for Ohio State or some other P5 school. So the main networks will make a ton on advertising with less resources expended than with college basketball. Probably takes 10 basketball games on 10 different broadcasts to come close to one Ohio State football game.

With that said, with the new rules, basketball will close the gap some as it will be heading in the same direction by screwing the little guy.
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Old 05-02-2022, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
According to a 2019 report, di football generated an average of $31.9 million. Basketball is 2nd at $8.1 million.
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I would like to see the median on these stats. It will be a whole lot lower than the average. I think the flyers come in in the mid teens as far as income though.
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Old 05-02-2022, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by The Gem View Post
That is what I like about it too. I think that is what the big shots at the big state schools hate that about it. I feel like UD would pony up the money to play with the big boys, but between consolidation and the top players who will start going to places like Overtime Elite instead of college it will turn into college baseball.
Overtime Elite just got a class of 2024 kid to join them with the understanding his pay is "NIL" preserving his college eligibility.

Depending on the money they (or someone else) could start getting high school kids into their system
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Old 05-02-2022, 02:16 PM
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I donít see college basketball closing the revenue gap significantly. Football is King in American sports. 2nd place is a long way downhill from it.
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Old 05-02-2022, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
I don’t see college basketball closing the revenue gap significantly. Football is King in American sports. 2nd place is a long way downhill from it.
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No, it will never overtake football as more popular. That's not the point. The point is that a college basketball team can host 20 home games while a college football team can host about 6. Once the little guy is put into 3rd and 4th class status, and there are only about 50 relevant teams, that gap of average per school will close.

CBS can televise an Ohio State Basketball game now and and it won't attract so much of the same viewership it does for OSU football because as I said before, Dayton, Miami, Oh, Akron, Toledo, Bowling Green, Kent, Youngstown, Cleveland St. Wright St etc... care more about their basketball teams. Once all this change in college basketball shakes out, more of those fans will switch to OSU as they will be the only "local" team with a chance in hell of winning anything.

So yeah, one football game makes tons more than a basketball game. But once you add in the condensed fan bases along with 3 times as many games and college basketball will be able to make more money(than it does now, not more than football) with less expenses(not having to have 10 games on ten different channels within the same network to cover maximum viewership which means more advertising dollars coming in without the same amount of telecasts).

BTW, again, you are correct that football is more popular which to this day makes no sense to me. In a typical football game, there's about 10 minutes of actual action, about 17 percent of the 60 minute clock it uses. Basketball is constant action. Of the 40 minutes of clock used in college, I'm going to guess the ball is in play at least 80 percent of it(maybe more). That's why I love the game more.

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Old 05-02-2022, 03:16 PM
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The NFL has significantly more revenue than the NBA. I just donít see college basketball closing the gap with football much. Iím also not sure that everyone becomes an OSU basketball fan (or whatever the nearest power is). OSU fans arenít as passionate about basketball as they are football. And, if all the small school fans suddenly narrow their focus, it would still be fewer eyes than football. I have to admit that I doubt that 60-80 schools break away to form a super league. It would destroy several broadcasting networks. I think the media money will influence the maintenance of the status quo.
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Old 05-02-2022, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
The NFL has significantly more revenue than the NBA. I just donít see college basketball closing the gap with football much. Iím also not sure that everyone becomes an OSU basketball fan (or whatever the nearest power is). OSU fans arenít as passionate about basketball as they are football. And, if all the small school fans suddenly narrow their focus, it would still be fewer eyes than football. I have to admit that I doubt that 60-80 schools break away to form a super league. It would destroy several broadcasting networks. I think the media money will influence the maintenance of the status quo.
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Again, I'm not saying they are taking football's audience or revenue. I'm saying there's more room for college basketball revenue to grow.

The post was 31.9 to 8.1. I could see that changing to something like 36 to 12 for instance(meaning they close the percentage gap but not the absolute dollar amount). And no, not all fans will switch to OSU or whatever. But over time, if OSU(and I'm only using OSU and Ohio college basketball for this example) becomes the only team with high rankings and NCAA success within region, then new fans will be drawn to them more and more until it does become like college football.
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Old 05-02-2022, 04:58 PM
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pure speculation on my part but I get the impression they'd leave basketball alone and the gap between the have and have nots would grow

If there's say 60 football schools that broke away from the NCAA altogether I don't think they'd get anywhere close to what the current March Madness rights are for a tourney with all power conference teams where everyone gets in

My guess is that the top football schools form their own deal and keep everything else in the current setup
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Old 05-02-2022, 05:01 PM
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Fair points. I still think the networks will offer substantial pushback to a drastic consolidation of power and exclusion of teams in basketball. If the G League operated like AAA baseball or the AHL, it could attract top players from basketball. Players could get more money AND focus on their craft. I donít think thatís an insignificant point. We knew a guy who was a 1st round NHL draft pick. He played some college hockey then signed a pro contract. Sure, the money was great. What really grabbed me was that he wanted to solely focus on hockey. He wanted to do it full time. I donít think that is a unique interest.
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Old 05-02-2022, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Fair points. I still think the networks will offer substantial pushback to a drastic consolidation of power and exclusion of teams in basketball. If the G League operated like AAA baseball or the AHL, it could attract top players from basketball. Players could get more money AND focus on their craft. I donít think thatís an insignificant point. We knew a guy who was a 1st round NHL draft pick. He played some college hockey then signed a pro contract. Sure, the money was great. What really grabbed me was that he wanted to solely focus on hockey. He wanted to do it full time. I donít think that is a unique interest.
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The G League is already starting to pull some guys from high school full time but you might able to make more money in college now
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Old 05-02-2022, 05:28 PM
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I think a better organized, clearer path G League would be an extremely attractive option. Imagine a draft that when several rounds where teams drafted young talent and assigned them to the G League. It could be a lot of fun.
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Old 05-02-2022, 05:36 PM
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Oscar Tshiebwe at Kentucky is expected to earn $2 million in NIL this next season

https://www.si.com/college/2022/04/2...million-in-nil

by comparison the G League salary is $37k, some guys are making more on two way contracts with the NBA which gets them an NBA salary if they're called up

Not many guys are earning a $1 million plus in Europe and they're usually ex-NBA guys

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/tradema...of-2021-22/12/

Normally you've got to prove yourself in Europe before you starting earning a couple hundred thousand per year.

For some of these guys the most money they'll earn playing basketball will come via NIL in college
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Old 05-02-2022, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Oscar Tshiebwe at Kentucky is expected to earn $2 million in NIL this next season

https://www.si.com/college/2022/04/2...million-in-nil

by comparison the G League salary is $37k, some guys are making more on two way contracts with the NBA which gets them an NBA salary if they're called up

Not many guys are earning a $1 million plus in Europe and they're usually ex-NBA guys

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/tradema...of-2021-22/12/

Normally you've got to prove yourself in Europe before you starting earning a couple hundred thousand per year.

For some of these guys the most money they'll earn playing basketball will come via NIL in college
Exactly. Farm leagues work in baseball because there's slow methodical development and movement and attending minor league baseball is more about the overall experience than the game and team. It's really difficult to become invested in a lower level league where your best players will be plucked away from you and the championship is won by the teams that doesn't have their best players promoted during the season.

In the NBA you're either NBA or you're not and if you're not, or not yet, you're better off going through the free education route + NIL. Baseball teams use what, close to 40 players or more a year on a 26 man roster? The NBA might use 2 or 3 or something like that above their roster limits.

G-League will never be in serious competition for players with college basketball. It's a tool to have replacements ready in case of injury or some other reason of unavailability.
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Old 05-02-2022, 06:22 PM
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I understand where things sit currently. I think the G League could turn things sideways with money and opportunity. The NIL money could simply become endorsement money.
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Old 05-11-2022, 01:37 PM
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@slmandel
It’s flown off the radar, but the NCAA is moving toward eliminating scholarship limits and allowing unlimited coaches.

Great for avoiding antitrust issues, nightmare for whatever’s left of parity.

From ⁦
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This could actually benefit UD. In basketball I'm not sure having more coaches would make a difference.

No scholarship limits and you could basically gamble penalty free on a guy like Rich Rolf. If he works out great, if not odds are he ends up in the portal
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Old 05-11-2022, 02:06 PM
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In my opinion all of this stems from the realization that it isn't right that private companies, schools, the NCAA, and dirt-bags all over the country are making billions of dollars every year from the labor of college kids who until now were forbidden from making money off their own talents, and name, image, and likeness.

To the "but they get scholarships" crowd I would suggest that most of these kids don't care one iota about getting a degree (at least not the ones we want to come play for UD). The minority of kids who care really about the degree will get it. Maybe that will be because the kids who don't care about school will all go to the G-League or some other avenue not connected to colleges, so the kids who actually care about their education will be the ones who still go to college.

This is a mess, as is everything when the floodgates are opened. It will find its level, which is not to say that the P5 won't break off from the NCAA, but if they do I don't understand why anyone thinks they would get to take the NCAA tournament with them thus relegating us to the NIT. The NCAA owns the tourney, and you have to be a member of the NCAA to play in it.

Whatever happens, I will learn to live with because the alternative is to say "I know it is manifestly unjust and frankly un-American to keep these kids from earning whatever the market will pay them for their own gifts and talents, but I just really like college basketball the way it is." That seems a little too close to worrying about the price of cotton getting too high for my comfort, if you get the analogy.
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Old 05-11-2022, 02:18 PM
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OSU Flyer, Iím not sure that no scholarship limits will make the difference that folks think at first blush. The NCAA cannot obviate Title IXís requirements. There are 2 ways to satisfy Title IX. The first and most well known path to compliance is through equal scholarship opportunities for men and women. Nearly all schools go this route. In this situation, scholarships added for menís basketball will have to result in more scholarships for womenís athletes or a loss of menís scholarships. The other path is to meet all scholarship demands at a school. An example of this would be a menís club lacrosse team meeting the requirements of di entry. They could become a di scholarship team even with a preexisting scholarship imbalance between men and women so long as there were no other womenís teams looking to participate at the di scholarship level. This assumes that roster sizes would still be controlled by the NCAA. In the end, ending scholarship limits could create a wave of Title IX litigation if schools just add male participants.
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Old 05-11-2022, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by OSU Flyer View Post
Oscar Tshiebwe at Kentucky is expected to earn $2 million in NIL this next season

https://www.si.com/college/2022/04/2...million-in-nil
Quote from the article:
"In February, the Democratic Republic of the Congo native announced that he was finally allowed to take advantage of NIL deals after clearing some hurdles regarding his F1 student visa."
The theory was that NIL did not apply to international players - that didn't take long to reverse course. Wonder how that type of deal is structured in terms of injuries, suspensions, expulsions, academic issues, off campus crimes, etc.
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Old 05-11-2022, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
To the "but they get scholarships" crowd I would suggest that most of these kids don't care one iota about getting a degree (at least not the ones we want to come play for UD). The minority of kids who care really about the degree will get it. Maybe that will be because the kids who don't care about school will all go to the G-League or some other avenue not connected to colleges, so the kids who actually care about their education will be the ones who still go to college.
You're saying the kids who come to UD are thinking, "well, they sent 1 player to the NBA since 1990, so this is a sure thing. I'm NBA bound! No sense getting an education!!"

You really think that? I disagree. I think nearly every kid in every sport is thinking they better value that education, at UD and nearly every other school for basketball. There's no more than 2% of kids who realistically think they're NBA bound at Utah State, UMass, Washington, FAU, and even a huge school like Texas. I don't buy it.

Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post

Whatever happens, I will learn to live with because the alternative is to say "I know it is manifestly unjust and frankly un-American to keep these kids from earning whatever the market will pay them for their own gifts and talents, but I just really like college basketball the way it is." That seems a little too close to worrying about the price of cotton getting too high for my comfort, if you get the analogy.
That's weird to say, since they CANNOT make "whatever the market will pay them" once they reach the NBA. The salary cap means NBA executives make tradeoffs and choices, undoubtedly holding back player salaries to some non-zero degree. But it's a fully unrestricted market in college in your mind?
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Old 05-11-2022, 08:34 PM
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What's odd to me is that seniors in high school are getting paid for Name, Likeness, Image as part of their recruitment... before they ever play a minute of college basketball.

Maybe whoever's paying them doesn't want a return on their investment
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Old 05-13-2022, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
You're saying the kids who come to UD are thinking, "well, they sent 1 player to the NBA since 1990, so this is a sure thing. I'm NBA bound! No sense getting an education!!"

You really think that? I disagree. I think nearly every kid in every sport is thinking they better value that education, at UD and nearly every other school for basketball. There's no more than 2% of kids who realistically think they're NBA bound at Utah State, UMass, Washington, FAU, and even a huge school like Texas. I don't buy it.



That's weird to say, since they CANNOT make "whatever the market will pay them" once they reach the NBA. The salary cap means NBA executives make tradeoffs and choices, undoubtedly holding back player salaries to some non-zero degree. But it's a fully unrestricted market in college in your mind?

I was talking only about the NIL, on which there is no limit, anywhere. The NBA has a structured salary schedule for the most part, there is a rookie schedule, there are veteran minimums, there are max contracts, there are super max contracts, all of these are defined by the collective bargaining agreement. If you are suggesting that Lebron's salary is less because of what Nike pays him, I will assert that you are flat out wrong. Now Lebron may TAKE less than he might otherwise be able to earn but that is so he can have a super team around him and still not make the playoffs. In any event he can't earn less than the veteran minimum.

I never said the kids that come to UD don't care about education. I am saying that in a perfect world, UD would prefer to take kids that are one and two and done because those are the best players in the country. My point is that the kids who want to go to college will go to college. I think that a ton of kids think they can play pro ball, very few are right. Is it your job or my job, or the government's job to save the rest of them from themselves? We let people get gender studies degrees, we let people major in vocal performance. Should we be saving these poor unrealistic souls as well.

Life is full of choices, I don't make yours, you don't make mine. That seems like a pretty simple concept to me.
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
I was talking only about the NIL, on which there is no limit, anywhere. The NBA has a structured salary schedule for the most part, there is a rookie schedule, there are veteran minimums, there are max contracts, there are super max contracts, all of these are defined by the collective bargaining agreement. If you are suggesting that Lebron's salary is less because of what Nike pays him, I will assert that you are flat out wrong. Now Lebron may TAKE less than he might otherwise be able to earn but that is so he can have a super team around him and still not make the playoffs. In any event he can't earn less than the veteran minimum.

You took an entire swath of people who have a point of view that differs from yours and accused them of being overtly racist in the ugliest possible way. Maybe you could pause to consider that their position is a reasonable context to apply when discussing sports instead of jumping to the non-thinking "meme form" argument like our politicians do, where someone just repeats a catchy phrase or popular accusation du jour.

If you get my analogy.

Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
Life is full of choices, I don't make yours, you don't make mine. That seems like a pretty simple concept to me.
A tautology that I don't believe anyone here has attempted to disagree with. The point of the discussion is what rules exist within the system where we make our choices.
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Old 05-16-2022, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
You took an entire swath of people who have a point of view that differs from yours and accused them of being overtly racist in the ugliest possible way. Maybe you could pause to consider that their position is a reasonable context to apply when discussing sports instead of jumping to the non-thinking "meme form" argument like our politicians do, where someone just repeats a catchy phrase or popular accusation du jour.

If you get my analogy.



A tautology that I don't believe anyone here has attempted to disagree with. The point of the discussion is what rules exist within the system where we make our choices.
I actually took great pains to make that comment clearly only apply to my feelings on the subject and did it in analogy form which is the definitional opposite of an OVERT anything. Race is not even mentioned in my post at all. Anyone of any race should be paid for their labor, and not kept at bay under the frankly ridiculous pretext of amateurism just because you like the product and the schools like the money, that is the point I was making.

I painted no one else with that brush or any brush let alone a swath of people. Playing victim of the nonexistent racism accusation is just as bad as the reflexive playing of the race card in my opinion. Both are the frustrated actions of clowns who have nothing of substance to argue, so they just light a fire. In any event these issues do exist and ignoring them and/or history doesn't help further the discussion or to solve the issue.

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Old 05-17-2022, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
I actually took great pains to make that comment clearly only apply to my feelings on the subject and did it in analogy form which is the definitional opposite of an OVERT anything. Race is not even mentioned in my post at all. Anyone of any race should be paid for their labor, and not kept at bay under the frankly ridiculous pretext of amateurism just because you like the product and the schools like the money, that is the point I was making.

I painted no one else with that brush or any brush let alone a swath of people. Playing victim of the nonexistent racism accusation is just as bad as the reflexive playing of the race card in my opinion. Both are the frustrated actions of clowns who have nothing of substance to argue, so they just light a fire. In any event these issues do exist and ignoring them and/or history doesn't help further the discussion or to solve the issue.
So you're saying this analogy:

Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
Whatever happens, I will learn to live with because the alternative is to say "I know it is manifestly unjust and frankly un-American to keep these kids from earning whatever the market will pay them for their own gifts and talents, but I just really like college basketball the way it is." That seems a little too close to worrying about the price of cotton getting too high for my comfort, if you get the analogy.
Had absolutely nothing to do with race. Nothing to do with the potential for rising labor costs if slaves (D1 athletes) were allowed to be free (earn NIL money), and people putting "the good old days" ("I just like college basketball the way it is") ahead of what's right (ending slavery). And just coincidentally most D1 basketball players are Black.

Surely you can see how someone might read it that way given the specific analogy you chose to use.
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Old 05-17-2022, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
So you're saying this analogy:



Had absolutely nothing to do with race. Nothing to do with the potential for rising labor costs if slaves (D1 athletes) were allowed to be free (earn NIL money), and people putting "the good old days" ("I just like college basketball the way it is") ahead of what's right (ending slavery). And just coincidentally most D1 basketball players are Black.

Surely you can see how someone might read it that way given the specific analogy you chose to use.
"Me thinks the lady doth protest too much", (to be clear I am not overtly calling you a lady or making an insensitive comment, just a quote).

Maybe someone looking to make a ridiculous argument or avoid the actual issue in favor of just letting the discussion devolve into a the race discussion would read it that way. You would of course have to ignore my actual words and the definition of the word overt and the fact that only 56% of college basketball players are black (a majority but a slim one given the inference you were trying to draw), to make your theories fly but whatever. I guess you are correct that given the history of our country the race discussion is unavoidable but I wasn't trying to have it. The funny thing is you never have to have it as long as you are advocating for treating everyone the same.

Did you have something you wanted to add about the actual argument surrounding profiting off people who aren't getting paid, or do you just want to stick with "your points don't matter because you called me and my friends racist", even though I did no such thing?
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:13 PM
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Are unpaid internships also slavery? Or is it a way for the intern to gain valuable experience to prepare them for their future career? I can see both sides, but can't see any instance to call it slavery.
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
Are unpaid internships also slavery? Or is it a way for the intern to gain valuable experience to prepare them for their future career? I can see both sides, but can't see any instance to call it slavery.
I can't think of one company that would cease to exist if the unpaid interns all left. I can't think of one NCAA team that would continue to exist if all the athletes left.

BTW, I think unpaid internships are a business scam.
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:25 PM
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Look ath the transfer portal. There are teams that have lost nearly every scholarship player. What makes you think that every player would leave if not paid? UDís team played from the 1903-1904 season until the 2020-2021 season without players being paid. Do you think an entire team would now leave without payment?
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:30 PM
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For what itís worth, if a company went out of business because itís unpaid internships left, the unpaid interns would have a great FLSA case. If their leaving caused that type of business harm, then the company was the real beneficiary of the interns work. In that case, it would not qualify as an unpaid internship. The interns would be considered employees. The facts determine if someone can be considered an unpaid interns.
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by UDGutter2 View Post
Are unpaid internships also slavery? Or is it a way for the intern to gain valuable experience to prepare them for their future career? I can see both sides, but can't see any instance to call it slavery.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, nobody used the word slavery. We are just talking about paying people nothing or next to nothing for their labor like Nike does in China for instance. If you call it slavery or analogize it to slavery then people get all defensive and say you are accusing them of being racists.

I could be wrong but I always thought you either got paid or got college credit for an internship. I would agree that business internships are sort of scammy.
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
"Me thinks the lady doth protest too much", (to be clear I am not overtly calling you a lady or making an insensitive comment, just a quote).
Says the guy who took the time to write 200 words definitely ***not*** protesting too much.


Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
You would of course have to ignore my actual words and the definition of the word overt
You mean, "done in the open; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden"? Yeah, that one. Just admit you got called on it and move on.


Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
and the fact that only 56% of college basketball players are black (a majority but a slim one given the inference you were trying to draw)
Even when you admit I'm right, it pains you so much that you're just sure I'm still somehow wrong. Good to know your intent is to engage in a reasoned discussion.

BTW, considering that "only" 13% of the US population is Black while 56% of college basketball players are Black, yeah, it's kind of a big deal that a MAJORITY are Black. But you're in too big of a hurry to cover your tracks to think rationally, which is entertaining to watch.
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Look ath the transfer portal. There are teams that have lost nearly every scholarship player. What makes you think that every player would leave if not paid? UDís team played from the 1903-1904 season until the 2020-2021 season without players being paid. Do you think an entire team would now leave without payment?
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I totally agree with you that all the kids are not going to leave, I think he was trying to point out the difference in the value of a summer intern and scholarship basketball player. There are going to be a couple of crazy years when some kids get paid stupid amounts of money, then everyone is going to remember that like 20 American kids get drafted by the NBA each year. I think there will be an adjustment but basketball will go on and I don't think it will be noticeably different. The practical effect (I hope) of all this is that the truly elite players will go somewhere other than college where they can maximize their money, which I don't fault them for. Professional athletes are in their prime from age 18-26 I would say. That may very well result in more college parity and even better NCAA tourneys.
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo View Post
Says the guy who took the time to write 200 words definitely ***not*** protesting too much.




You mean, "done in the open; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden"? Yeah, that one. Just admit you got called on it and move on.




Even when you admit I'm right, it pains you so much that you're just sure I'm still somehow wrong. Good to know your intent is to engage in a reasoned discussion.

BTW, considering that "only" 13% of the US population is Black while 56% of college basketball players are Black, yeah, it's kind of a big deal that a MAJORITY are Black. But you're in too big of a hurry to cover your tracks to think rationally, which is entertaining to watch.
OK you win, back to the reasoned discussion. Why is it that that college basketball players, the majority of whom are black as you correctly point out should not be paid for labor that others are making billions off of or be able to profit from their own name, image and likeness?
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Old 05-17-2022, 05:10 PM
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Flyers98, I agree that the market will figure it out. How long will endorsement deals send 7 digit incomes to unknown 18 year olds? If they are that marketable, a viable professional league will surface. Folks have to remember that they will be barred from wearing team apparel in their promotions (unless the deal contracts with the team as well, which could create a problem since it ties the player to the school). How many people will recognize players? It should lower the amounts being paid. But, if not, that money will be lured into a for profit venture. The G League and itís progeny have suffered from lack of exposure and interest. If companies are literally willing to buy into the marketability of all these basketball players, then the lower league may become viable.
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Old 05-17-2022, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hyde Park Flyer View Post
Flyers98, I agree that the market will figure it out. How long will endorsement deals send 7 digit incomes to unknown 18 year olds? If they are that marketable, a viable professional league will surface. Folks have to remember that they will be barred from wearing team apparel in their promotions (unless the deal contracts with the team as well, which could create a problem since it ties the player to the school). How many people will recognize players? It should lower the amounts being paid. But, if not, that money will be lured into a for profit venture. The G League and itís progeny have suffered from lack of exposure and interest. If companies are literally willing to buy into the marketability of all these basketball players, then the lower league may become viable.
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I agree with everything you said. I would recognize Mali or Deron without a UD uniform but that it because I watch every game I wouldn't know who any of the top players in the country are without their jerseys and I doubt they want to start every commercial with "hi I'm..." I sort of felt bad for Sue Bird in those Capital One commercials during the tourney where she was the only one who had to have her name said out loud (for the fans).

I agree that if there is enough money to be thrown around, why even try and navigate whatever rules the NCAA will halfheartedly try to impose, just fund the G League and pay those guys a reasonable salary and let them get what they can get on the market as far as NIL.
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Old 05-17-2022, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
I agree that if there is enough money to be thrown around, why even try and navigate whatever rules the NCAA will halfheartedly try to impose, just fund the G League and pay those guys a reasonable salary and let them get what they can get on the market as far as NIL.
Does anyone care about the G League? Why would anyone pay a G League player NIL money? The NIL money is going to be in college because there is a built in fan base and passion for the teams and players.

If you don't care about college, then you watch the NBA and still don't care about the G League.
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Old 05-17-2022, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by superfan99 View Post
Does anyone care about the G League? Why would anyone pay a G League player NIL money? The NIL money is going to be in college because there is a built in fan base and passion for the teams and players.

If you don't care about college, then you watch the NBA and still don't care about the G League.
The G League as it presently exists? Nobody cares. But if people with a bunch of money who want to spend it on basketball wanted to invest because it became a more attractive option than college to the best of the best, I think it could happen. There would be much more bang for the buck for the investor with advertising and TV, the NBA might want to grow it if it made sense as well. Certainly more bang for the buck than paying a kid $400K for a regional commercial and some personal appearances.

I'm not saying I hope that happens, I just think that if, or before this NIL stuff hits the crazy level some one is going to say, this money can be better spent. You can substitute G League for Athletes Elite(?) or something that may not yet exist.

I don't love the NIL stuff, I realize it will change college sports but I just don't think you can say that someone is forbidden from, or limited in, profiting from their own person and once you say that, Pandora's box is open because what used to be a serious violation of NCCA rules is now completely fine.

Can you imagine being the point guard on a team where your roommate and power forward is making a quarter of a million dollars a year and you are getting nothing? I mean can he even buy you dinner under NCAA rules? What about that? Can a guy share his NIL windfall with his teammates or is that an impermissible benefit? The whole thing is a mess that will have to get figured out but there is just no justification for the alternative in my opinion.
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Old 05-18-2022, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyers98 View Post
The G League as it presently exists? Nobody cares. But if people with a bunch of money who want to spend it on basketball wanted to invest because it became a more attractive option than college to the best of the best, I think it could happen. There would be much more bang for the buck for the investor with advertising and TV, the NBA might want to grow it if it made sense as well. Certainly more bang for the buck than paying a kid $400K for a regional commercial and some personal appearances.
I just don't see anyone caring about the G league no matter how much money people throw at it. If you want to watch the best of the best you watch the NBA. If you want to watch and root for the school you went to or the school in the town you grew up in you watch college.

Even if every 4 and 5 star kid went to the G league and there was a ton of money involved. I still think everyone watches NBA or College or both, but not G League. What would be the draw for fans?
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Old 05-18-2022, 12:42 PM
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I could be 100% wrong and probably am. Luckily I am not going to invest any money in it so being wrong doesn't cost me anything. I just think something is going to spring up.

For guys who know or are pretty sure that they are going to next level, school is actually a hindrance. You can only practice 20 hours a week, you have to pass your classes, you have to go to your classes, (maybe). I sort of think the draw of a beefed up G League would be the same or similar to the draw of a P5 super league (which admittedly might be more about football than basketball), and that is certainly something that appears to have legs. Have you seen some the of sports programming on the ESPN platforms? I can't bring myself to watch a soccer game on TV (live I can do), but apparently enough people watch that NBC programs it every week. If there is one thing I know about Americans it is that you can't really predict what people will end up liking or watching. Also, if you can bet on it, somebody will air it and somebody will watch it.
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Old 05-18-2022, 01:15 PM
Medford Medford is offline
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The draw of a G league only exists if the NBA continues to limit top end talent from entering the draft straight out of HS. If there is a LeBron type generational talent playing in the G league for 1 season then maybe you watch a few games because that young man is the next superstar. LeBron type talent is few and far between, mostly likely it ends up similar to the minor leagues in baseball. Might be a few names the nerdiest of basketball fans know and recognize as potential future all stars but largely few people actually car to watch.


Anybody hear care about the Norfolk Tides? They have some young catcher who is rated as the 2nd best prospect. How many people outside of KC pay attention to the development of Bobby Witt Jr? He's in the show, but I doubt many people in LA, New York, Ohio, Texas, Florida, etc... care or know.


Basketball is different in that stars are born and recognized younger, and impact the game more quickly than MLB prosects, but thats not enough to believe that anyone is going to care much about any G-league team outside of the market those teams reside in and the rare exception of a generational talent like LeBron forced down there by NBA rules.
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Mad Props to Medford For This Totally Excellent Post:
superfan99 (05-18-2022)
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